As I understand it, the reason the Christian bible stories are so pervasive is because governing institutions adopted it.  The Roman Catholic Church (think Inquisition, Rome, political power and the Church of England (think Protestants).  Essentially the "scriptures were used to rally people who couldn't be hooked any other way.  People with no electricity who grew their own food, government needed a way to control an uncontrollable populous.  Imagine what things would be like today if we all grew our own food, if everyone was off the grid, and if rich people were trying to collect taxes to ensure their future wealth.  But when you bring God into the equation you can begin to control people who would respond negatively to any other kind of coercion.

SarahM777, you are claiming the current status of Christianity could not come about unless it is the one true religion, but you fail to explain why this necessarily holds true. For instance, you are assuming the premise that the Jews could only be back in the promised land if the bible is true. Logically it would therefor follow that this would be impossible unless the bible is the word of God. If it is indeed possible without the bible being the word of God, then your argument fails.

Also worth noting is that your argument is a double edged sword as similar events or situations surrounding other  religions would also prove them to be true, and should they happen to be mutually exclusive to Christianity, well then you have a big problem on your hands.

Quote from: Noey Noonesson on August 30, 2012, 07:16:55 AM
As I understand it, the reason the Christian bible stories are so pervasive is because governing institutions adopted it.  The Roman Catholic Church (think Inquisition, Rome, political power and the Church of England (think Protestants).  Essentially the "scriptures were used to rally people who couldn't be hooked any other way.  People with no electricity who grew their own food, government needed a way to control an uncontrollable populous.  Imagine what things would be like today if we all grew our own food, if everyone was off the grid, and if rich people were trying to collect taxes to ensure their future wealth.  But when you bring God into the equation you can begin to control people who would respond negatively to any other kind of coercion.

That's what is to often most people see. They don't see the true Church,the body of Christ. They see the power hungry,rigid,formalized,money grubbing,back stabbing etc etc so called church. They see the guy in the fish hat that proclaims he is the vicar of Christ on earth whose words somehow have more meaning than what Jesus Himself said. They see on the TV the mob guy going to confession and the priest saying a few magic words and he can go back to being the mob guy the other 167 hours during the week.  They see the rich guy driving the Mercedes who wouldn't even help a coworker out,but  yet goes to the church down the street every Sunday for an hour like he is doing God a favor. They see the Westboro's  and do NOT see God's love in their lives. Which is what the Church is suppose to do. The Church is suppose to be the ones that are showing His love and preach the good news of who Jesus is and He did to save us. To often people never see the same compassion that Jesus showed to them that they should be showing to others.  To say something is not right is one thing but bashing others on the head is so far from doing what right.

It is so easy to point out one thing that someone else is doing,never mind the fact the cheating on ones taxes is lying and stealing,never mind the gossip by the ones in the back of the church,never mind the guy who stomped everyone else to get to the top,never mind the deacon who is having an affair,and it's rarely ever mentioned because they aren't so bad. No wonder it's so hard for those who do not believe to see the truth. They don't see the church living in truth.

Quote from: SarahM777 on August 30, 2012, 07:01:13 AM
The one that is right should be able to be verified to a degree.  Outside of the Bible where is any historical backing to what they say? How do you know that this person ever existed at all? If it's a mystery why is it a mystery? If God is trying to save people than why does it have to be shrouded in secracy? Wouldn't it make more sense that if God is trying to save His people then wouldn't He spell it out and have proofs that His word is true?

How is it that Babylon,Nineveh,Tyre,Sidon,Sodom and Gommorah,Jericho and other places have been located? What about the Medes and the Persians? What about the Canaanites and their practices? How is it that the spread of humanity across the globe fits the Biblical account of the tower of Babel? History shows that people spread out from Mesopotamia which is where Babylon is?
What about the Pilate stone?

The story of Mithra and whether or not it is historically accurate (BTW...the cities mention in those scriptures are real) isn't what is important in my question.

What is important is how similar Mithra story is to the Christ story but the Mithra story came first....by a very long time first.

There are also other religious texts that are historically "accurate" too.

Basically, my point is almost every religion says their book is true...not just the Bible (The Quran says it much more than the Bible). Also, other holy books are very historically accurate (sometimes, even more accurate than the Bible). I find truths in every one of those books...I also see literary narrative (where it is suppose to be a story...and not taken literally). Job and Jonah are two examples.

The rub I have with fundamentalist Christianity (Jesus is the only way...everyone else is going to hell) is how they lift up Israel as the Golden Child of the world. Fundamentalist Christians place the Jewish people on a spiritual pedastil (coming from a Jewish family myself I can tell you we are no different than anyone else) but then they believe Jews are going to hell too if they don't believe Jesus to be their Messiah.

The Zionist movement is an interesting thing. They funnel millions and millions of dollars into Israel. Not to prosper Israel but to hurry the coming of Christ (because some believe that if the temple was built where the current Muslim temple is in Jerusalem then that will usher Christ back according to some people's interpretations of the Book of Revelation).

Quote from: Annah on August 30, 2012, 11:42:41 AM

Basically, my point is almost every religion says their book is true...not just the Bible (The Quran says it much more than the Bible). Also, other holy books are very historically accurate (sometimes, even more accurate than the Bible). I find truths in every one of those books...I also see literary narrative (where it is suppose to be a story...and not taken literally). Job and Jonah are two examples.

What an evolution of thought!

Jesus said: "the kingdom of heaven is within," and thus "when in Grace," to be found everywhere.

Quote from: Annah on August 30, 2012, 11:42:41 AM
The story of Mithra and whether or not it is historically accurate (BTW...the cities mention in those scriptures are real) isn't what is important in my question.

What is important is how similar Mithra story is to the Christ story but the Mithra story came first....by a very long time first.

Not suprising as it came from the Persian empire. The writers of the New Testament always pointed back to the Old Testament to back it up. The Jews were in captivity from 598 to about 520 BC. The Persian Empire was the power at that time. The Jews that remained would have talked about their scriptures and it would have been very easy for it to be transfered to another religion.  Most of what the scholars do know about it was that it really came about sometime between 300 and 100 BC and appears to be mostly Roman with a slight base going back.

Going into some background a list of the Old Testament and New Testament references


Theme                                         Old Testament Reference                     New Testament fulfilled in                Jesus                                                                                                                   Jesus
Ascension of Jesus to the right hand of God   Ps. 110:1                Matt 26:64; Acts 7:55-60; Eph. 1:20
Atonement by blood                                     Lev. 17:11        Heb. 9:22
Baptism                        Exodus 40:12-15; Lev. 16:4;                   Matt. 3:16; 28:19;
                                            Gen. 17:10; Ezek. 36:25                                                                      Col. 2:11-12; Heb. 10:22
                                         Gen. 17:10; Ezek. 36:25                                
Begotten Son, Jesus is   Psalm 2:7   Acts 13:33; Heb. 1:5
Creative work   Gen. 1; 1:26   John 1:1-3; Col. 1:16-17
Crucifixion   Psalm 22:11-18; Zech. 12:10   Luke 23:33-38
Damnation and Salvation   Dan. 12:2   Matt. 25:46
Eternal Son   Micah 5:1-2; Psalm 2:7   Heb. 1:5; 5:5
First and Last   Isaiah 41:4; 44:6; 48:12   Rev. 1:8,17; 22:13
God among His people   Isaiah 9:6; 40:3   John 1:1,14; 20:28; Col. 2:9; Matt. 3:3
Incarnation of God   1) Ex 3:14; 2) Ps. 45:6 Isaiah 9:6; Zech. 12:10   1) John 8:58; 1:1,14; 2) Heb. 1:8; Col. 2:9; Heb. 1:1-3
Monotheism   Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8; 45:5   John 10:30; Eph. 4:5
Only Begotten Son   Gen. 22:2.                    John 3:16; Heb. 11:7
Priesthood of Jesus   Psalm 110:4   Heb. 6:20; 7:25
Resurrection of Christ   Psalm 16:9-10; 49:15; Is. 26:19   John 2:19-21
Return of Christ   Zech. 14:1-5; Mic. 1:3-4   Matt. 16:27-28; Acts 1:11; 3:20
Sacrifice of the Son   Gen. 22.  Typology   Heb. 9:27
Salvation by grace   1) Gen. 12:3; 2) 15:6; Hab. 2:4   1) Gal. 3:8-11; 2) Rom. 4:9
Sin offering   Ex. 30:10; Lev. 4:3   Rom. 8:3; Heb. 10:18; 13:11
Sin offering made outside the camp   Ex. 29:14   Heb. 13:12-13
Sin offering without defect   Ex. 12:5; Lev. 22:20; Deut. 17:1   Heb. 9:14
Son of God   Psalm 2:7   John 5:18
Substitutionary Atonement   Isaiah 53:6-12; Lev. 6:4-10,21   Matt. 20:28; 1 Pet. 2:24; 2 Cor. 5:21; 1 Pet. 3:18;
Trinity   1) Gen. 1:1,26; Job 33:4; 2) Gen. 17:1; 18:1; Ex. 6:2-3; 24:9-11; 33:20; Num. 12:6-8; Psalm 104:30;  23)Gen. 19:24 with Amos 4:10-11; Is.48:16   1) John 1:1-3; 2) John 1:18; 6:46; 3) Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14
Virgin Birth   Isaiah 7:14   Matt. 1:25
Worship of Jesus   Psalm 97:7   Matt. 2:2,11; 14:33; 28:9; John 9:35-38; Heb. 1:6

Curtisy of CARM

Note that most of the Old Testament was written prior to 600 BC
So which one really did come first?

Did Mithra really come from a rock as an adult? Did he really shoot a rock with a arrow and cause a worldwide flood? If it's not true how can anyone say any of it is true or is it pick and choose? Are there any witnesses?

Quote from: Annah on August 30, 2012, 11:42:41 AM

Basically, my point is almost every religion says their book is true...not just the Bible (The Quran says it much more than the Bible). Also, other holy books are very historically accurate (sometimes, even more accurate than the Bible). I find truths in every one of those books...I also see literary narrative (where it is suppose to be a story...and not taken literally). Job and Jonah are two examples.

Do they have eyewitnesses who were willing to die saying they saw what they saw? How did Thomas go from unbelief to be willing to die for one fact that can not be erased HE saw Jesus alive.
No one knowing dies for a lie. Why would anyone want to die for something they knew was a lie?

Why are they just stories? Could not an all powerful God cause a fish to swallow a man and spit him up 3 days later? Why can't they be literal?

Quote from: Annah on August 30, 2012, 11:42:41 AM

The Zionist movement is an interesting thing. They funnel millions and millions of dollars into Israel. Not to prosper Israel but to hurry the coming of Christ (because some believe that if the temple was built where the current Muslim temple is in Jerusalem then that will usher Christ back according to some people's interpretations of the Book of Revelation).

Don't be surprised if that is also a reason for the ecumenical movement.  Moving towards a one world religion.

1. Everything the Persians believed in did not come from the stories of Jews from the diaspora. This has been discounted numerous times by many scholars.  Scholars had looked into this as many Fundamentalists tried to say almost all of the religions in the Middle East was taken from Judaism (to show that Judaism was the only right way). For example, the flood story from the Syrian books are much older than the flood story from the Hebrew Bible. To cite every single story that correlates to multiple faiths by saying "the other cultures 'borrowed them all' from the Hebrew people is very elitist and unsubstantiated.

Historical and archeological finds have shown that the Kingdom of David was much smaller than previously thought (just a spattering of city states)..and if anything, much of the Hebrew traditions were borrowed from other religions. Not the other way around. Much of the Hebrew Bible was written much later than thought. For example, Moses did not write the Pentateuch. King Josiah oversaw the writings of Samuel and Kings as well as Leviticus (Pent.)....he lived over 1000 years after Moses.

2.  The Christ and Mithra comparison...many of which cannot be found in the Hebrew Bible (born on Winter Solstice, having twelve disciples, having a paternal father named Joseph, etc) so the theory of the Persian Empire stealing the Jewish belief system is not valid.

Also, there will never be a one world religion. Too many people still have religious prejudice in their hearts for that to happen..plus the beauty in multiple faiths is the beautiful diversity among them. In my opinion, the ultimate form of spiritual enlightenment is to be aware that there are truths in all of it. Not just one book written much later than many others.

Quote from: Annah on August 30, 2012, 02:29:32 PM
1. Everything the Persians believed in did not come from the stories of Jews from the diaspora. This has been discounted numerous times by many scholars.  Scholars had looked into this as many Fundamentalists tried to say almost all of the religions in the Middle East was taken from Judaism (to show that Judaism was the only right way). For example, the flood story from the Syrian books are much older than the flood story from the Hebrew Bible. To cite every single story that correlates to multiple faiths by saying "the other cultures 'borrowed them all' from the Hebrew people is very elitist and unsubstantiated.

All I said was that it is possible that they may have picked it up that way. Can you be 100% sure that the Syrians books were just written first. Not that it was the first to be known?

I do not agree that they came from Judaism most have their roots going back to the tower of Babel.

Quote from: Annah on August 30, 2012, 02:29:32 PM

2.  The Christ and Mithra comparison...many of which cannot be found in the Hebrew Bible (born on Winter Solstice, having twelve disciples, having a paternal father named Joseph, etc) so the theory of the Persian Empire stealing the Jewish belief system is not valid.

Jesus was NOT born on the winter solstice. The winter months can get down into the 30's. Not exactly good temps to be putting a new mother and newborn in a stable.

Taking bits and pieces and blending belief systems is nothing new.

Quote from: MariaMx on August 30, 2012, 07:46:22 AM
SarahM777, you are claiming the current status of Christianity could not come about unless it is the one true religion, but you fail to explain why this necessarily holds true. For instance, you are assuming the premise that the Jews could only be back in the promised land if the bible is true. Logically it would therefor follow that this would be impossible unless the bible is the word of God. If it is indeed possible without the bible being the word of God, then your argument fails.

Also worth noting is that your argument is a double edged sword as similar events or situations surrounding other  religions would also prove them to be true, and should they happen to be mutually exclusive to Christianity, well then you have a big problem on your hands.

If you look at the Old Testament you have what is called both the major and minor prophets. Most of what they wrote about way the Northern Kingdom (Israel) and the Southern Kingdom (Judah) was going to be judged. They also dealt with Assyria (Capitol city Ninevah) and Babylon. Assyria came against the Northern Kingdom the Kingdom was dispersed about 720 BC. Ninevah was destroyed by the Babylonians in 612 BC. The Babylonians laid siege to Jerusalem about 598-597 BC and the Southern Kingdom was taken into captivity in 3 deportations. Babylon was then destroyed by the Medes and Persians about 538 BC.  The prophets who were living at that time were preaching that these things were going to happen. Quite a bit more in depth than I can into here. They were right the things they said would happen did. The number and depth of them are beyond coicendense.

Quote from: MariaMx on August 30, 2012, 07:46:22 AM

Also worth noting is that your argument is a double edged sword as similar events or situations surrounding other  religions would also prove them to be true, and should they happen to be mutually exclusive to Christianity, well then you have a big problem on your hands.

It would have to be a lot to even begin to come close.

Quote from: SarahM777 on August 30, 2012, 03:18:31 PM
All I said was that it is possible that they may have picked it up that way. Can you be 100% sure that the Syrians books were just written first. Not that it was the first to be known?

Not 100% sure. When it comes to history, nothing is 100% sure. But with many of their tablets and writings dated much older than Hebrew scripture it is a pretty good bet. Also, with the Mithra story def 100% being dated before the Christ story, it does bring about other extra related questions.

QuoteI do not agree that they came from Judaism most have their roots going back to the tower of Babel.

Jesus was NOT born on the winter solstice. The winter months can get down into the 30's. Not exactly good temps to be putting a new mother and newborn in a stable.

Many Christians do believe he was born on Winter Solstice. It became the official date. I'm not saying he was def born on Winter Solstice. That wasn't my point. My point was his birth date observation was the same as many other Messiahs throughout religious history.

QuoteTaking bits and pieces and blending belief systems is nothing new.

Agreed as this was my entire point

Quote from: Annah on August 31, 2012, 02:45:27 AM
Not 100% sure. When it comes to history, nothing is 100% sure. But with many of their tablets and writings dated much older than Hebrew scripture it is a pretty good bet. Also, with the Mithra story def 100% being dated before the Christ story, it does bring about other extra related questions.

Maybe but it leaves out to many other factors. Nomad and city. Nomads would not be writing on stone tablets as they were not very easy to carry. It's assumed that nomads at that time were not educated in reading and writing,but it's not provable either way and it may just be that they most likely had written it down on leather. Writing on leather goes back a long way. It's mentioned as far back as 2500 BC. but all that means is they knew about it. Leather degrades so much faster than stone. All it means is that the stone is documented earlier. Nothing more nothing less.

Quote from: Annah on August 31, 2012, 02:45:27 AM

Many Christians do believe he was born on Winter Solstice. It became the official date. I'm not saying he was def born on Winter Solstice. That wasn't my point. My point was his birth date observation was the same as many other Messiahs throughout religious history.

Most Christians have no idea where a lot of this stuff came from,have very little knowledge of the Bible,and for to many it's a show,it's like "I go to church on Sunday,I give to the church,I listen to the preacher on Sunday,the preacher says some little words to make me OK,I am a good person,I listen to contemporary Christian music,etc so therefor I must be a Christian."  I'm sorry going off on a tangent. It's just one of those things that drive me crazy.

A lot of that stuff was set up by Constantine. It just makes it easier to rule if you can make some of the holidays the same days. He was one of the first ecumenical. Can anyone say if he was or not a Christian? Not for sure. He may have had other motives for saying so. Money and power are strong motives,he may have seen that the empire was spending a lot of time,money,effort and manpower against a group that at that time was basically harmless. What ever his reasons were he did a lot of damage. He set the ground work for the Roman Catholic Church. It opened the door for the "church" to do things that Jesus never ever told them to do and in many cases in opposition to what Jesus said we were to do.

Quote from: SarahM777 on August 30, 2012, 04:18:21 PM
If you look at the Old Testament you have what is called both the major and minor prophets. Most of what they wrote about way the Northern Kingdom (Israel) and the Southern Kingdom (Judah) was going to be judged. They also dealt with Assyria (Capitol city Ninevah) and Babylon. Assyria came against the Northern Kingdom the Kingdom was dispersed about 720 BC. Ninevah was destroyed by the Babylonians in 612 BC. The Babylonians laid siege to Jerusalem about 598-597 BC and the Southern Kingdom was taken into captivity in 3 deportations. Babylon was then destroyed by the Medes and Persians about 538 BC.  The prophets who were living at that time were preaching that these things were going to happen. Quite a bit more in depth than I can into here. They were right the things they said would happen did. The number and depth of them are beyond coicendense.

Begging the question. You are claiming such coincidences can't naturally occur but you don't substantiate your claim. Even a broken watch displays the correct time twice a day so coincidences do occur.

Predictions of these kinds aren't all that impressive to begin with. First of all, a lot of people, self-proclaimed prophets or not, make all sorts of predictions. Sometimes they are right, but that doesn't prove foreknowledge, after all we 're talking about events that aren't so unlikely to happen anyway. Say I predict the fall of the North Korean regime within the next 200 years and it does come about, does that mean I have psychic abilities? No, it doesn't. It only means I predicted something that tends to happen anyway. Also, predicting something hundreds of years in advance might on the face of it make it seem even more impressive, but the longer the time span of the prediction the more likely it is to come true.

I also find that often times interpretations of old texts and events are shoehorned to fit into the agenda of the person making the interpretation. Nostradamus predictions are a classical example of this. His predictions are vague and can easily be seen to refer to some arbitrary later event. The trouble is however that no-one was able to foresee the coming event even with Nostradamus predictions in hand. Their "true" meaning could only be interpreted after the fact, but as I like to say, a text that can mean anything means nothing.

There's one more thing in your previous post I'd like to comment on (I plum forgot):

Quote
Why is it in the last 70 years in spite of every war that has been waged against them being far,far out numbered they won? If God's hand is not with them how do you explain it?

Here you are making the assumption that the only deciding factor of the outcome in a war or battle is the number of soldiers on the opposing sides, but this just isn't so. A modern soldier could easily defeat a thousand cavemen without divine intervention. Any further explanation should be unnecessary.

Quote from: MariaMx on August 31, 2012, 11:08:28 AM
Begging the question. You are claiming such coincidences can't naturally occur but you don't substantiate your claim. Even a broken watch displays the correct time twice a day so coincidences do occur.

Predictions of these kinds aren't all that impressive to begin with. First of all, a lot of people, self-proclaimed prophets or not, make all sorts of predictions. Sometimes they are right, but that doesn't prove foreknowledge, after all we 're talking about events that aren't so unlikely to happen anyway. Say I predict the fall of the North Korean regime within the next 200 years and it does come about, does that mean I have psychic abilities? No, it doesn't. It only means I predicted something that tends to happen anyway. Also, predicting something hundreds of years in advance might on the face of it make it seem even more impressive, but the longer the time span of the prediction the more likely it is to come true.

I also find that often times interpretations of old texts and events are shoehorned to fit into the agenda of the person making the interpretation. Nostradamus predictions are a classical example of this. His predictions are vague and can easily be seen to refer to some arbitrary later event. The trouble is however that no-one was able to foresee the coming event even with Nostradamus predictions in hand. Their "true" meaning could only be interpreted after the fact, but as I like to say, a text that can mean anything means nothing.

There's one more thing in your previous post I'd like to comment on (I plum forgot):Here you are making the assumption that the only deciding factor of the outcome in a war or battle is the number of soldiers on the opposing sides, but this just isn't so. A modern soldier could easily defeat a thousand cavemen without divine intervention. Any further explanation should be unnecessary.

I do have to go through my notes. Many of the prophicies are very specific. Writing out the list will take a bit of time and I will work on it through this weekend. There are exacting times,names,and other things.

I agree on Nostradomus,reminds me to much of the physic hot line. If they are so physic why is it they never win the lottery? 

But not so modern against modern. The Yom Kippur War is a good example. Sneak attack on a major Holy day from two directions,out manned and out gunned yet they won. It's more in depth then that.

Quote from: SarahM777 on August 31, 2012, 01:12:56 PM
I do have to go through my notes. Many of the prophicies are very specific. Writing out the list will take a bit of time and I will work on it through this weekend. There are exacting times,names,and other things.

Well, pull them out, but make sure you verify the original source. If exact times and names are mentioned then that would make a strong case but it can also mean it is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Ie. followers of the prophecies made them come about because they expected them to.

You should also look into Confirmation Bias before you review your material.


[/quote]
But not so modern against modern. The Yom Kippur War is a good example. Sneak attack on a major Holy day from two directions,out manned and out gunned yet they won. It's more in depth then that.
[/quote]
The point I was trying to make was that after a battle the victory can always be traced back to the initial conditions and the following events. For your argument to be true the Israeli's would have to be un-explainable, and even then it might not be reasonable to attribute it to divine intervention as we may not know all the details.

The Israeli's victory in the Yom Kippur War is well understood by historians. It's been a while since I learned about it but as I can recall the Egyptians had mostly focused their planning and effort on the crossing of the Jordan river and the initial battle that found place there. As they had to proceed across the Sinai desert they had logistical trouble sustaining their troops and were lacking the higher positions of the Israeli tanks where they had to cross the mountain pass.

The reason why many of the prophetic books were accurate was because they were often written DURING the event in which the Prophet said will happen.

Matter of fact all these books were written like that.

The Messiah scriptures found in some of the Prophetic books were as close as our interpretation of prophecy we will see..and some of that could have fit other people too. For example, in Isaiah, it says a young hand maiden will give birth to the Messiah and will call him Emmanuel.

Well, many girls who gave birth back then were young hand maidens (i.e., young girls). In Isaiah, it says nothing of the word "virgin." That was written in there MUCH later by the Greeks. Jesus was named Jesus. Not Emmanuel.

Now, of course people say "well, Emmanuel is more of a descriptor than an actual name." I totally agree. But why didn't Isaiah write, "and he shall be called "God Saves" as Yeshua means "Salvation."

But to my original point: every prophetic book was written during the time in which the prophets had "prophesied" the event so of course they are accurate...because it already had happened. However, the point of the Prophetic Books wasn't about Prophets knowing the future. The messages of the Prophets were based on a Deuteronomy type of cause and effect. You had sin, therefor God will do this. However, if you do right, then God will restore you.

Quote from: Annah on August 31, 2012, 07:23:49 PM
The reason why many of the prophetic books were accurate was because they were often written DURING the event in which the Prophet said will happen.

Matter of fact all these books were written like that.

Babylon was not made a waste land during the time the prophets were living they have already died. Babylon was still a city during Alexander the Great's time. In fact he died there in 323 BC. In 275 BC the inhabitants were transported to Seleucia. Even later than that sacrifices were still be performed in the temple there. By the mid 2nd century BC the place had become desolate. At that time it was not yet a swamp yet by the 1800's AD they were doing a dig and had to stop because of the ground water.


It took over 600 years after Isaiah wrote this.

You have the same with Tyre. The prophecies came in stages and not all at once over 100's of years.

One could also argue the point that Kingdoms rise and fall all the time (especially during those times). So of course Isaiah would have been right when he wrote Babylon would have been destroyed. Inevitably, someone else would take it over. Assyrians took it, then the Persians (before and during Isaiah's time)....it was only a matter of time before another kingdom did it too.

Also the prophet of Delphi prophesied against the fall of Babylon as well. These prophecies were coming among the enemies of a ruling kingdom. It inspired morale among the slave nations.

If it took 100 years or 2000 years for Babylon to fall, it would have been inevitable and thus, the prophetic nature of that statement would have been won by default.

Quote from: Annah on September 01, 2012, 12:53:32 PM
One could also argue the point that Kingdoms rise and fall all the time (especially during those times). So of course Isaiah would have been right when he wrote Babylon would have been destroyed. Inevitably, someone else would take it over. Assyrians took it, then the Persians (before and during Isaiah's time)....it was only a matter of time before another kingdom did it too.

Also the prophet of Delphi prophesied against the fall of Babylon as well. These prophecies were coming among the enemies of a ruling kingdom. It inspired morale among the slave nations.

If it took 100 years or 2000 years for Babylon to fall, it would have been inevitable and thus, the prophetic nature of that statement would have been won by default.

It's not in the fact that Babylon fell. It's how it fell. It's in how Tyre fell. It's in how Israel and Judah were dispersed and then regathered.  And that is what I will get into.

I am going to start with the promises and prophicies concerning Israel. This will take a while so I will do it in parts.

Israel Part 1

Going all the way back to Moses time when they where about to enter the Promised Land,the book of Deuteronomy gives a synopsis of what God already did. They are given the blessing for obeying and the curses for disobidience, in Chapter 27 they take an oath.

The very last line in Chapter 27sums it up

Verse 26 "Cursed is anyone who does not uphold the words of this law by carrying them out."

Then all the people shall say, "Amen!"

In Chapter 28 again they are given blessing and curses. Going down to verse 36 it aid this

36 The Lord will drive you and the king you set over you to a nation unknown to you or your ancestors. There you will worship other gods, gods of wood and stone. 37 You will become a thing of horror, a byword and an object of ridicule among all the peoples where the Lord will drive you.

They would not have a king for another 350 years who the people appointed. During the 350 years they were ruled by judges.

Going down to verse 64

64 Then the Lord will scatter you among all nations, from one end of the earth to the other. There you will worship other gods—gods of wood and stone, which neither you nor your ancestors have known. 65 Among those nations you will find no repose, no resting place for the sole of your foot. There the Lord will give you an anxious mind, eyes weary with longing, and a despairing heart. 66 You will live in constant suspense, filled with dread both night and day, never sure of your life.

This started happening in AD 70 after the fall of Jerusalem. It did not happen in the Babylonian captivity as they were only sent to one country not worldwide.

God gives them a promise if after turning away and they start turning back to Him.

When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come on you and you take them to heart wherever the Lord your God disperses you among the nations, 2 and when you and your children return to the Lord your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today, 3 then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes[a] and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you. 4 Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the Lord your God will gather you and bring you back. 5 He will bring you to the land that belonged to your ancestors, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your ancestors. 6 The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live. 7 The Lord your God will put all these curses on your enemies who hate and persecute you. 8 You will again obey the Lord and follow all his commands I am giving you today. 9 Then the Lord your God will make you most prosperous in all the work of your hands and in the fruit of your womb, the young of your livestock and the crops of your land. The Lord will again delight in you and make you prosperous, just as he delighted in your ancestors, 10 if you obey the Lord your God and keep his commands and decrees that are written in this Book of the Law and turn to the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

God had already given His promise that the Jews if after being taken away from their land they would be in time restored. They once again became an independent nation on May 14,1948 after almost 2500 years.

The thing is this is warned about and predicted even before they enter the Promise Land.

This is just a small foundation from which it builds on.

Israel Part 2

Again another warning about what would happen. Again before they even entered the promise land.

Deuteronomy 29: 22-29

22 So that the generation to come of your children that shall rise up after you, and the stranger that shall come from a far land, shall say, when they see the plagues of that land, and the sicknesses which the Lord hath laid upon it;

23 And that the whole land thereof is brimstone, and salt, and burning, that it is not sown, nor beareth, nor any grass groweth therein, like the overthrow of Sodom, and Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboim, which the Lord overthrew in his anger, and in his wrath:

24 Even all nations shall say, Wherefore hath the Lord done thus unto this land? what meaneth the heat of this great anger?

25 Then men shall say, Because they have forsaken the covenant of the Lord God of their fathers, which he made with them when he brought them forth out of the land of Egypt:

26 For they went and served other gods, and worshipped them, gods whom they knew not, and whom he had not given unto them:

27 And the anger of the Lord was kindled against this land, to bring upon it all the curses that are written in this book:

28 And the Lord rooted them out of their land in anger, and in wrath, and in great indignation, and cast them into another land, as it is this day.

29 The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

Isaiah goes into how many times they will be scattered and returned. Well before the second time they were removed from the land.

Isaiah 11:11-13

11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

So when did the second time that the Jews were removed from the land? It was during the time of the Roman Empire well after Isaiah wrote this as he was living during the time of Uzziah,Jotham,Ahaz,and Hezakiah the 10 through 13 kings of Judah. From 767-687 BC almost 750 years before the second time they were removed from the land.

Hosea goes on to state that Israel would be without a king. He predicted this before 753 BC

Hosea 3:4-5

4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim:
5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the Lord their God, and David their king; and shall fear the Lord and his goodness in the latter days.

How long have they been without a king or the temple where they could preform the sacrifices?

Herod's temple was destroyed in 70 AD.  So since then they have been without a king,prince,or sacrifice for over 1950 years.
Once again you have that the Jews will return to the land.

Jesus Himself predicts the same

Luke 21:23-24

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Once again it was predicted that the Jews would be lead into captivity,Jerusalem would be trodden down by the Gentiles. Jerusalem was mostly destroyed by the Romans in AD 70 and was never again in Jewish hands till 1948.
It went from Roman hands to the Caliphs,then the crusades,it went back and forth between sultans and Christians till the Ottoman Empire,then came the British mandate up until  May 14,1948 when Israel once again became a nation.