Quote from: Kelly J. P. on September 16, 2012, 06:22:51 AM

Also, as for the Thai women thing, isn't it possible that the reason someone could tell is because they were advertising their trans status in some way? Like their location, a symbol they're wearing, or their voice which, if perfected, would have created a flawless presentation? Or perhaps a Thai trans woman just told the person they're trans? There are a number of ways to find out someone is trans that don't involve being able to tell by their appearance or "aura".

No, they were talking about Thai MTF in general, when they saw them as waitresses, hairdressers, checkout girls etc

When I was in Thailand with my husband this summer there were many my husband clocked, but equally many he didn't clock even when he talked to them. I clocked them though and they me. Whenever I'm in Thailand I just assume all Thai people clock me, but then our driver asks us if we have kids and when we tell him we don't he suggests my husband go to the doctor to have his sperm checked. I was very surprised when he said that.

In most cases I find it is almost impossible to tell if people clock me or not, I don't think it happens a lot but for the most part I've really stopped caring. There are a few situations I get really nervous about it though. The other day when I was riding the subway I was sitting there by myself enjoying the ride while surfing the net on my phone when 50 or 60 thirteen year old kids came rushing in at on of the stops. They were literally crawling over me while eating ice cream (a lot of them had a bucket of B&J in their hands), yelling and screaming, doing back flips and otherwise high-fivin' each other. This went on for like 10-15 minutes before they got off and I was so afraid one of them would clock me and make a huge fuzz about but luckily non of them did. My confidence was really good afterwards though.

I don't think cis-men generally have any super-clocking-powers though. ->-bleeped-<-s and trans-fans are better at it though. Also it seems that middle-eastern and African men are better at clocking me than the native los hombres blancos ;-)

Quote from: MariaMx on September 16, 2012, 07:29:34 AM
In most cases I find it is almost impossible to tell if people clock me or not, I don't think it happens a lot but for the most part I've really stopped caring.

I have also reached that position.

Quote from: MariaMx on September 16, 2012, 07:29:34 AMI don't think cis-men generally have any super-clocking-powers though.

I agree - most people neither see nor care what is around them. I do think that there are some people on the forum who seem determined to put a black cloud around any silver lining they come across.

Quote from: MariaMx on September 16, 2012, 07:29:34 AM->-bleeped-<-s and trans-fans are better at it though. Also it seems that middle-eastern and African men are better at clocking me than the native los hombres blancos

I stay away from both groups as they tend to be highly religious christians or muslims and for whatever reason trans and religion do not seem to mix well.

I actually think gay men are the best at "clocking" a trans person. They ALWAYS seem to know, I put it down to the fact that they can be hyper critical and aware of gender differences (the same way they always know another guy is gay).

The advantage of having a gay man know you're trans though, is that as long as they're not "shady", they won't out you. It's sort of a respect thing.

Quote from: Ave on September 16, 2012, 08:09:54 AM
I actually think gay men are the best at "clocking" a trans person. They ALWAYS seem to know, I put it down to the fact that they can be hyper critical and aware of gender differences (the same way they always know another guy is gay).

The advantage of having a gay man know you're trans though, is that as long as they're not "shady", they won't out you. It's sort of a respect thing.

I agree, and idk, kinda disagree too from my experiences. On one hand, the only guy that has ever (admitted to) clocking me was a bisexual guy who leaned more towards gay than straight. He's been around LOTS of transsexuals in the past, and even said "at first I would have NEVER known when you past me, but then I started paying attention and something... idk what... set me off!" He was fine about it though.

On the other hand I can't count how many times I've shocked people at the local gay bar. The first time I came out there, I was drowned in questions and even had them questioning my cis female friend if she was trans! I have quite a few gay friends that have said to me or to friends of mine "I would have never known!!"

Question:

If you had SRS and BA now... would THAT make any difference?

I understand "inability to pass" = NO RLE... right?

Axélle

Quote from: Ave on September 16, 2012, 08:09:54 AM
I actually think gay men are the best at "clocking" a trans person. They ALWAYS seem to know, I put it down to the fact that they can be hyper critical and aware of gender differences (the same way they always know another guy is gay).

The advantage of having a gay man know you're trans though, is that as long as they're not "shady", they won't out you. It's sort of a respect thing.

Other than other MtFs, of course?

Funny that someone brought up aura as I have worked with women here in the Bay Area that strike me as having an aura that I read as non-cisgender while NOTHING in their phsicla make-up clocks as anything as cis. I can't explain it. It is something metaphysical. I remember walking up Powell Street and my radar went up and spotted someone walking down the street a block away when this woman passed me there was nothing that most people would "clock." But I was convinced she was not cis by her gait.

People do not "go around trying to clock MtFs" (actually in the Bay Area, there are people who do that) but gender is the first thing we make our mind up about a person, then usually race.

Quote from: Ave on September 16, 2012, 08:09:54 AM
I actually think gay men are the best at "clocking" a trans person. They ALWAYS seem to know, I put it down to the fact that they can be hyper critical and aware of gender differences (the same way they always know another guy is gay).

The advantage of having a gay man know you're trans though, is that as long as they're not "shady", they won't out you. It's sort of a respect thing.

Hum, my gay male favoured nurse at the LGBT "OUT" group in my town, I saw him the other day for blood test (knows my history...) says: "I never seen you other than a woman..." he has no reason to butter me up - I think.

Would he OUT me? You're right; I really could not imagine THAT
And in any case out me as a woman with a history... at least not a former 'street-corner-clam' and HIV positive, hum. (Their main business...)

Axélle
PS: other MtFs?!... many would out you just to give a booming HELLO! in a shop...
Not soooo good, eh.

....I wonder how many of the "clocked" MTF women were actually cis-women?

Everyone is assuming that if someone is "clocked", that the person is "MTF"...but the only way to know for sure is to ask (except in serious "does-not-pass" cases).

I accept myself however I look now, or how I'll look in the future. But, be aware that our own perception is skewed to criticism. For example, I always thought my hands were large and mannish...even though several people have told me that I have small hands. This past weekend I met a trans-woman (she told me so) who passed very well, and had small hands...we put our hands up to compare, and mine were the same size as hers.

So now I have to work on my own self-criticism "voice", and tell it to STFU.

Quote from: Beth Andrea on September 16, 2012, 10:58:27 AM
I have to work on my own self-criticism "voice", and tell it to STFU.

Quote from: Beth Andrea on September 16, 2012, 10:58:27 AM
So now I have to work on my own self-criticism "voice", and tell it to STFU.

If you find how, Let me know. Mine is like one of those two little angel and devil cartoon things, always bickering with desire vs Common Sense.


I used to worry about the hands things, but I found one thing that helps: Going to the gym. Seen guys with gigantic feet and hands makes me feel like I got lucky. I was worried about having short fingers, but after looking at my last photo, they are not that bad. (yeah).

Quote....I wonder how many of the "clocked" MTF women were actually cis-women?

I know of a few persons, that every time they see a photo of a girl they will say "she has a "trap" face" at the slightest faction.

Quote from: Beth Andrea on September 16, 2012, 10:58:27 AM
....I wonder how many of the "clocked" MTF women were actually cis-women?

Everyone is assuming that if someone is "clocked", that the person is "MTF"...but the only way to know for sure is to ask (except in serious "does-not-pass" cases).

I am certainly not assuming that and I would never, ever ask someone whose aura read non-cis to me if they were "trans" or not. That said, I do trust my instincts and intuition but, of course, do not claim to be infallible. I have had a few people who, after knowing me for awhile and probably picking up on my not "perfect" voice ask me if I was "trans," I look at them as if there were crazy, and tell them no and then they accept it and apologize profusely. (One has to wonder about the type of person who would ask a question like that!)

Although do not claim to be a professional philosopher, I can say without equivocation (see Josiah Royce) that how people perceive another person is wholly the perception of the person doing the perceiving and, in all cases, different from how the person being perceived feels about themselves. Royce's earlier philosophy says the only person that knows the "real truth" is the Absolute (God) Later, Royce changed his view to state that truth is what most people think it is. (This is a huge oversimplification, of course) So according to this theory, if most people see us as women, that is what we are. OTOH if most people see us as men...

Quote from: Beth Andrea on September 16, 2012, 10:58:27 AM
....I wonder how many of the "clocked" MTF women were actually cis-women?

I think this makes a good point. If people are going to be professional clockers, i.e. clocking tools, then they're going to have a range of accuracy of successful clocks per person (which would be difficult to verify as noted). A measurement (even though it's more of a basis of selection) has to be reproducible and repeatable. Since the varying degrees of masculinity/femininity are ambiguous, the combinations of features are innumerable, and the environment in which someone was clocked is variable, I think to truly "clock" someone is a bold statement (unless you can point out characteristics which are mutually agreed on by whatever party).

Don't get me wrong though, I do think people have varying levels of ability to do it. But I'm just uncomfortable with the overall concept.

I have only clocked one person, but...

Sheeesh, body language. I so much wanted to tell her "stop doing that, you are giving yourself away". I've been avoiding the most manly patterns for a long time when it comes to moving or doing certain actions (Never wondered why I wanted to do more feminine gestures), and that one was like waving a giant red flag. I could have overlooked the height or build, but not doing those things.

I'm surprised when people say they haven't met an mtf, I feel like I see them pretty often (not including in "those" neighborhoods at night).

I keep telling myself there must be a point of satisfaction.  But I can't get over being ugly, old, and overweight.

Before accepting myself, and finally coming out this spring and summer, I guess I clocked some MTF's with admirable curriosity.  I know that sounds bad, but I'm going to be clocked someday also.  Anyway, I was always facinated by how those women managed in public, and at the same time I was embarassed to have possibly invaded their privacy.   With that said, it seems cis and transwomen have very parallel but vastly different experiences while struggling for an identity and appearance to show who they are inside.  Almost every girl I knew in college had dramatically changed by the time they graduated.  And excluding psychology and physiology, I think the same could be said for any MTF going through RLE and transition over a four year period.

I occasionally see two girls at a local grocery store, and neither one could pass four years ago.  But when I notice them now I'm amazed at the changes.  One has become very feminine (not a movie star, just another woman), and the other seems to have taken some masculine manerisms and included them in her butch demeanor and appearance.  Had I not seen either of these women before I honestly don't think I'd notice them today.  I don't know, maybe it's a little wierd of me to have subconciously tracked how they changed.

Quote from: Ave on September 16, 2012, 12:22:26 PM
I'm surprised when people say they haven't met an mtf, I feel like I see them pretty often (not including in "those" neighborhoods at night).

Best way to not get clocked is to stay out of so-called GLBTI friendly neighborhoods where they make it a sport clocking each other. Most cis types don't hang out in those environs and don't clock others because it's (1) Rude (2) They have more important things to do with their time. (3) because of the busyness of their own lives they don't pay attention. (4) They don't give a hoot if someone wants to look strange, weird, or different from the norm.

Quote from: Shantel on September 16, 2012, 12:35:57 PM
Best way to not get clocked is to stay out of so-called GLBTI friendly neighborhoods where they make it a sport clocking each other. Most cis types don't hang out in those environs and don't clock others because it's (1) Rude (2) They have more important things to do with their time. (3) because of the busyness of their own lives they don't pay attention. (4) They don't give a hoot if someone wants to look strange, weird, or different from the norm.

O.o I don't stay strictly in lgbt areas, I mean in school or just around some neighborhoods (hunts point anyone?).

Quote from: Beth Andrea on September 16, 2012, 10:58:27 AM
....I wonder how many of the "clocked" MTF women were actually cis-women?

It doesn't matter whether they're cis or trans, clocking is clocking. If you were to ask a cis person whether they are transgender, they would probably be offended.

Quote from: Bella on September 16, 2012, 01:40:34 PM
Is that you on your photo??? If so, you're beautiful!!!

lol no. I am that sullen though .