How to argue with transphobes?

[LocustToybox]

I have absolutely no clue how to argue with transphobes.
Here is an argument I'm having on a particularly transphobic youtube video ():

Youtuber 1: what in her undies? 0_o

Youtuber 2: Male genitalia. A penis and testicles, his to be exact.

Youtuber 3: [sarcasm/] No, he had a male vagina... [/sarcasm]

Me: Um, just because you have a penis doesn't mean you are male and just because you have a vagina, doesn't make you female... You are an idiot.

Youtuber 4: That's exactly what it means. The words female or male refer to biological sex.

Me: Gender overrides biological sex. A transman does not want to be called a "female" and a transwoman doesn't want to be called "male". Transpeople are human beings that just want to be recognised for who they are. Whether you may realise it or not, transpeople are not just fetish objects for everyone to laugh at.

Youtuber 4: Gender = biological sex. What they want to be called doesn't change what they actually are. Certainly they are human beings, but they don't want to be recognized for who they are, they want the opposite, for others to avoid recognizing what they are and regard them as what they are not.



This makes me so mad and I have no idea how to respond. I tried to tell him that transpeople just want to be recognised as the gender we identify with, but he continues to insist that our gender is defined by our genitals. Does anyone have any idea of what I should respond with?

[Joanna Dark]

Yes, you should not respond. Some people are lost causes and no matter what you say they will not listen. It sometimes brings me great sadness when I read those things or hear things like "it should not use the women's room." And it really affects me. I don't use the rest room because of it and I pass almost 100 percent. In fact, I barely pass when presenting male but still have this hang up.

On another note, I remember that scene when I was a little kid and I don't think I ever felt so small after seeing it. I do remember thinking it would be great if one day I could look like her but then I remember all the laughter and it is like a 1,000 sharp knives cutting me at once. It probably turned me off from transitioning for years.

The funny thing is Jim Carrey won't put out that one movie because of violence but what about the violence this movie causes. real violence. real effects. real hate. He can justify as comedy all he wants but no one would ever do that do another minority group. We really are the last group it is okay to hate and attack. I know a lot of groups like to claim victimhood, but trans violence is real. Just the other day a trans woman was killed just 30 blocks from me, cut up like a steak, and strewn across an abandoned lot in Philadelphia.

But I try to avoid these online discussions as they leave me hollow everytime and cause such great dyspohria.

[Sammy]

Rule No.1 "Don't feed the troll". Most of them are trolls and You can only beat them by counter-trolling but thats very counterproductive and You are basically wasting Your time. The rest of them are just, sorry, retards, and You cant beat them in an argument, unless You are using arguments like a wrench tool and flamethrower, but that's sort of dumb anyway. So, anything less extreme and violent, and You will find Yourself getting stuck in a swamp and worst of all, at the end of the day You will be feeling like a retard too...

P.S. I recently saw a trans-themed T-shirt with an excellent quote - "I am not confused about my gender. You are"

[Cindy]

The problem with arguing with 'phobic people is that they cannot and will not reason. Therefore they will not  change their minds.

To be able to think in a rational manner you need to be able to accept facts and understand facts that disagree with your argument.

A hypothesis can then be given by building on the facts. You can then test that by examining how your hypothesis - your thought, opinion etc stands up to the facts that you throw at it.

Unless a person is willing to do that you may as well argue to a brick.

There is a host of information and evidence about gender conditions in the scientific literature, and on the Wiki here.

It is sad but there are people who cannot think; there are still people who think the Earth is flat and created in seven days. Dinosaurs and humans co-inhabited, immunisation is bad for you and that no one has landed on the Moon, and that trans*people don't exist.

Is there a reason to argue with such people?

Cindy

[Sammy]

Now speaking about dinosaurs and immunisation...
Grabs my tin foil hat

[Cindy]

Rule No.1 "Don't feed the troll". Most of them are trolls and You can only beat them by counter-trolling but thats very counterproductive and You are basically wasting Your time. The rest of them are just, sorry, retards, and You cant beat them in an argument, unless You are using arguments like a wrench tool and flamethrower, but that's sort of dumb anyway. So, anything less extreme and violent, and You will find Yourself getting stuck in a swamp and worst of all, at the end of the day You will be feeling like a retard too...

P.S. I recently saw a trans-themed T-shirt with an excellent quote - "I am not confused about my gender. You are"

Too cute!!!!

This may have to be in the new range of Susie's Fashion label!!

[LocustToybox]

The problem with arguing with 'phobic people is that they cannot and will not reason. Therefore they will not  change their minds.

To be able to think in a rational manner you need to be able to accept facts and understand facts that disagree with your argument.

A hypothesis can then be given by building on the facts. You can then test that by examining how your hypothesis - your thought, opinion etc stands up to the facts that you throw at it.

Unless a person is willing to do that you may as well argue to a brick.

There is a host of information and evidence about gender conditions in the scientific literature, and on the Wiki here.

It is sad but there are people who cannot think; there are still people who think the Earth is flat and created in seven days. Dinosaurs and humans co-inhabited, immunisation is bad for you and that no one has landed on the Moon, and that trans*people don't exist.

Is there a reason to argue with such people?

Cindy

Oh god, that is too true. The funny thing about arguing with these types of people is that almost always the intelligent, rational person loses or is sucked into the idiocy.

[Cindy]

It can get enjoyable

I did have a person of a religion, that does not agree with evolution, come to preach to me at my front door; who with complete sincerity agreed that according to her belief that  if I put my little cat into the African jungle it would grow to be a Lion.

Hallelujah

You may like to look at some discussions by James Randi on You tube. He is a professional magician who likes to debunk people who sell their 'ideas' as being true events rather than tricks. He is an intelligent well spoken person who uses reason to back his arguments. And very entertaining!


BTW I love good tricks and magic entertainment, I adore Penn and Teller, but I know that they are fooling me with skill, not by half baked ideas that my pet cat would see through.

To be honest when you are open minded and can think and argue, rationally, you can get great entertainment from some people.

ECindy

[StellaB]

I'm sorry but I have enough of my own issues without taking on any responsibility or promoting other people's issues.

I'm okay with people saying that I'm a man, that I'm a freak, that I'm a sexual deviant, and you know if they gets their rocks off by doing that then more power to them.

If you want to make yourself look an idiot by shooting off your mouth on half-baked theories and unchecked assumptions and you take pride in looking emotionally immature and showing off your mean and nasty side then please..,. be my guest.

I know exactly who I am, I know who I'm not. I don't need the stress, the drama, the hassle.

It doesn't bother me because whatever is said isn't true. It doesn't bother me because it's my personal experience, my history and my story is based on truth, it's based on empirical evidence, and it's supported by those in the medical profession who've also invested years in acquiring their knowledge.

[Sammy]

[Nicolette]

"How to argue with transphobes?"

You don't. You can't educate the ineducable. In the greater realm of things, they are insignificant, they are as relevant as a piece of lint. Save your energy for the bigger battles.

[Pia Bianca]

You don't. You can't educate the ineducable.

Sometimes transphobia is just some instrument of pushing own thoughts away. I was kinda transphobic for a long time until I realized that I used to be phobic to myself. But still your point is kinda valid; you can't cure this type of transphobia as well. It will cure itself at some future time.

[Jess42]

I really can't see that argument with any good outcome on your part. People are people and a lifetime of preconcieved notions are hard to make an intellegent argument against. But you can make them think about it though and point out their own "shortcomings".

Of course the argument has to be relative to to the person you are arguing with. Everyone is a legend in their own mind and that "legend" is very fragile and usually well protected. Once attacked they will attack back and you know if you have hit a nerve. Then stop all arguments and fade into the background and let them think.

[suzifrommd]

Alright, I have to disagree here.

First, I don't agree with writing people off. The world becomes educated one ignorant person at a time.

Second, don't argue labels. Is she a woman? Is she a man? Going to be a semantic discussion.

Instead, talk about facts. She obviously wants to be referred to using female pronouns and her female names. Wouldn't it be rude not to? Wouldn't only an insensitive person not accommodate her wishes?

Letting people facts about transgender helps: (1) Transgender is not a choice. (2) It typically doesn't go away on its own and no medical way has been discovered to "cure" it. (3) Transgender is serious. Depression and suicide are common among people who don't transition. (4) Transition is an effective treatment.

[Sammy]

Alright, I have to disagree here.

First, I don't agree with writing people off. The world becomes educated one ignorant person at a time.

Second, don't argue labels. Is she a woman? Is she a man? Going to be a semantic discussion.

Instead, talk about facts. She obviously wants to be referred to using female pronouns and her female names. Wouldn't it be rude not to? Wouldn't only an insensitive person not accommodate her wishes?

Letting people facts about transgender helps: (1) Transgender is not a choice. (2) It typically doesn't go away on its own and no medical way has been discovered to "cure" it. (3) Transgender is serious. Depression and suicide are common among people who don't transition. (4) Transition is an effective treatment.

It is nice to know that idealists still live among us...

[Ms. OBrien CVT]

Don't let them rent space in your head.  And never confuse them with the facts, their minds are already made up.

[King Malachite]

I would just say "okay" and move on.

[Sephirah]

I think probably the first thing to accept is that there are still many, many people who hold those opinions. Whether through ignorance, belligerence, whatever the reason may be. And that there's no way to know whether they are actually transphobic or just haven't had access to information and are forming knee-jerk opinions out of hear-say and whatever else.

In that regard, perhaps a suitable thing to do would be to inform this person/people that there is a wealth of information out there if they would like to read up on the subject. And if not, then really there's nothing else you can say, other than you hope they change their narrow-minded view at some point.

Fighting fire with fire leads, more often than not, to an inferno from which everyone gets burned. The most disarming way to approach things is by being kind, calm and considerate. When you don't rise to someone's obvious baiting, they don't know what to do. After all, you know what's right, and who you are. The most you can hope for is that the people you're speaking with will go off and get more information on the subject. If they do, and maybe their views change... all well and good.

If they don't, sadly that's their choice. You can't change their views for them. They have to do it themselves. You just say what you feel you need to say, and leave it at that.

To quote Morpheus: "I'm trying to free your mind, Neo. But I can only show you the door. You're the one that has to walk through it."

That's my view, anyway.

[peky]

Arguing on the internet is like beating your head against a wall. Even if you manage to win... it isn't worth it.

You can't beat "The Internet".

^^^ +1

[vegie271]

I have had this problem for years - if someone accuses you of being something you are not - you are not - you simply ignore them . they do not wish to be educated - this person WANTS to hurt you. They invalidate your existence. If possible block them or unsubscribe to the thread.

only when someone who invalides you actually physically confronts you and attacks you do you HAVE to defend your self - if possible walk away. Only if totally necessary use force with a bigot.