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BATHROOM WARS: TRANSGENDERS GET FLUSHED

Started by Amelia Pond, August 27, 2013, 06:35:21 PM

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Amelia Pond

BATHROOM WARS: TRANSGENDERS GET FLUSHED
John Aman, 8/24/13

MIAMI, Fla. – A well-organized coalition of pro-family and civic organizations in Miami-Dade soundly defeated a measure that would have given transsexuals access to public restrooms and locker rooms used by the opposite sex.

The Miami-Dade Commission gave initial approval in May to adding "gender identity and expression" to the county's anti-discrimination law by an 11-1 vote but the measure stalled after intense lobbying by opponents – led by the local Christian Family Coalition.

Bill sponsors withdrew it on August 14 because they lacked the votes to get it through committee.

The victory in liberal Miami-Dade "is really landmark," said Christian Family Coalition executive director Anthony Verdugo of the win 36 years after singer Anita Bryant led the successful repeal of Miami-Dade County's homosexual rights law.

"When we caught wind of it, we had three weeks to organize," said Verdugo. His team exhaustively researched the issue, developed a communications strategy and filled a hearing room with nearly 300 opponents when the commission took testimony on July 8.

The move is in the opposite direction to that which many cities, counties and states these days are moving.

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This is sad, I'll never understand the hate or wanting to oppress a particular group of people.  :(
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Jamie D

#1
The editorial comment suggests something that may, or may not, be true.

Hate or oppression are not necessarily motivating factors.  It could simply be that some people are uncomfortable or modest.  That suggestion is demonizing.

I can tell you, as someone born male-bodied, we showered after P.E. and sporting events, and I was always uncomfortable.  Had a female-bodied person been allowed in the showers, I am not sure how I would have reacted, before I was 15 or so.

A reasonable solution would be to have private, rather than communal showers, but retrofits are expensive.
  •  

Jamie D

Quote from: Glitterfly on August 27, 2013, 07:09:09 PM
It's sad how proud those people seemed to be of managing to segregate people :o

Jamie D: some white people are also not comfortable using the same bathrooms as black people or Asian people. Is that any different...?

It is different because race is immutable.  You are born with your genitals, but they can be surgically modified.

This is a hot-button issue, and we are 0.3% of the population.  I am not sure that society would be accepting of communal showers.  Education takes time.  Racial segregation took many decades to conquer.  Gender biases are largely unplowed ground.  We don't even yet have the LGB community with us on this one.

My personal belief is that we need to try to build consensus with willing minds, until we have a political and sociological majority.
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Joanna Dark

I use the woman's room all the time and nobody cares. I don't get so much as a second look. So a lot of this is academic for me at least. But I do understand that i have passing privilege and feel horrible for my trans sisters who may get harrassed in the women's room. For an FTM, as long as they present male, no one will care or dare say a thing. So it's more of a concern for trans women. I think. I could be wrong so please don't attack me if I am.


As far as showering, I don't think a trans woman should until post-op. Heck, I wouldn't even want to. I loathe my penis.

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Danielle Emmalee

Quote from: Joanna Dark on August 27, 2013, 07:28:13 PM


As far as showering, I don't think a trans woman should until post-op. Heck, I wouldn't even want to. I loathe my penis.

Not trying to get controversial or anything but what about non-op trans women?  Should they be ashamed of their bodies?  Should they have to continue going to the male showers?  What's really fair?
Discord, I'm howlin' at the moon
And sleepin' in the middle of a summer afternoon
Discord, whatever did we do
To make you take our world away?

Discord, are we your prey alone,
Or are we just a stepping stone for taking back the throne?
Discord, we won't take it anymore
So take your tyranny away!
  •  

Jamie D

#5
What worries me is about the political backlash.

Is our society, as a whole, ready for unisex communal showers?

We could look to Japan and sentos as a historical example of where that is accepted.
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Jamie D

Quote from: Glitterfly on August 27, 2013, 07:55:52 PM
If you look at michael jackson then race isn't immutable :D on a more serious note if you invest enough money on peroxide (or dark pigment/tanning salons and so on) and surgery it really isn't, and in a few more years you can switch your skin colour etc like you switch clothes. what then? basing acceptance on something being 'immutable' is just right unless you're saying being trans is a matter of choice and thus not worthy of acceptance or consideration which I know you're not saying.

As for non-ops... I think if they're unwilling to get rid of the non-female or non-male parts then they shouldn't go to female or male bathrooms. in that case unisex bathrooms only. fair is fair, right? I don't see that as segregation because public showers are not just about gender, they're also about feelings of comfort and security and not fearing for anything and like it or not, a penis goes into a vagina and thus a penis in a public shower space full of vaginas creates discomfort, no matter what's attached to it. so it's a compromise. in a bathroom no one has to see your genitals, you have the privacy of your own stall so this is not an issue/applicable~ this is not an easy issue though so I don't think there is one correct answer~ I just wanted to share my thoughts :)

Food for thought.  Thank you.
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Danielle Emmalee

A lot of European countries have co-ed open showers.  I wouldn't say that Europeans are overly disturbed people or that they are somehow negatively affected by seeing organs that they themselves don't have.  It think it must have something to do with religion.  Generally it's the more religious countries that seem to have the greatest discomfort with nudity.  And America, I think its just because nudity is sexualized by the media so much.
Discord, I'm howlin' at the moon
And sleepin' in the middle of a summer afternoon
Discord, whatever did we do
To make you take our world away?

Discord, are we your prey alone,
Or are we just a stepping stone for taking back the throne?
Discord, we won't take it anymore
So take your tyranny away!
  •  

Joanna Dark

Quote from: Mx. Lonely on August 27, 2013, 07:33:14 PM
Not trying to get controversial or anything but what about non-op trans women?  Should they be ashamed of their bodies?  Should they have to continue going to the male showers?  What's really fair?

I never said non-op women should be ashamed of their bodies. Please do not put words into my mouth. If you have a penis, in a place where everyone is naked in female showers and you have a penis, that is an issue. What about the cis-women? Do they not have the right to feel safe. Not everyone, and hardly anyone, understands trans issues. Would something happen? No, most likely not. But appearance tyrannizes over reality. In this case, quite literally. Bathrooms are a completely seperate issues as no one is naked or sees you genitals as Glitterfly so aptly pointed out.
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Danielle Emmalee

Quote from: Joanna Dark on August 27, 2013, 08:12:24 PM
I never said non-op women should be ashamed of their bodies. Please do not put words into my mouth. If you have a penis, in a place where everyone is naked in female showers and you have a penis, that is an issue. What about the cis-women? Do they not have the right to feel safe. Not everyone, and hardly anyone, understands trans issues. Would something happen? No, most likely not. But appearance tyrannizes over reality. In this case, quite literally. Bathrooms are a completely seperate issues as no one is naked or sees you genitals as Glitterfly so aptly pointed out.

I'm sorry if I put words in your mouth that didn't match what you had intended.  That was definitely not my intention.  I agree that having a penis in the women's showers is an issue.  I don't think it should be.  Why should cis-women feel unsafe because of an organ?  Is it because they may have been sexually assaulted by someone who happened to have one?  What about men who have been sexually assaulted by someone with a penis?  Shouldn't they have equal rights as well?  Should all showers just be private because someone might feel uncomfortable otherwise, or should people that feel uncomfortable be the ones themselves to avoid these types of situations?  You can't please everyone and it makes sense to try to please the majority by dividing naked situations by genitalia.  I guess I just feel marginalized myself being a minority.  I don't personally have the desire to shower naked with other women or any desire to not shower with men, or vice versa, I just could care less, its just a shower.  So maybe I'm not really arguing for anyone that actually exists but maybe they do and just don't have a voice. 
Discord, I'm howlin' at the moon
And sleepin' in the middle of a summer afternoon
Discord, whatever did we do
To make you take our world away?

Discord, are we your prey alone,
Or are we just a stepping stone for taking back the throne?
Discord, we won't take it anymore
So take your tyranny away!
  •  

musicofthenight

Quote from: Jamie D on August 27, 2013, 07:51:19 PM
We could look to Japan

Where public baths were a hot-button issue for centuries, and where they've settled on gender-segregation (in time or space) as the solution to some very real problems with prostitution.


I've never been comfortable with open showers, myself.  I could probably make myself do it now - I've worked hard to overcome my body-shyness - but I'd rather not have to.


Also, WND.   ::)  Yeah, don't expect sympathetic or even polite treatment of any trans*stuff from them.


Now what sucks with this whole issue is, say we get these laws passed.  What's keeping a few perverse people from taking advantage of them?  This isn't a strong argument logically; there's nothing really keeping peepers out of restrooms right now.  (Or outhouses.  YUCK!)  But it only takes a handful of anecdotes to build a smear campaign.
What do you care what other people think? ~Arlene Feynman
trans-tom / androgyne / changes profile just for fun


he... -or- she... -or (hard mode)- yo/em/er/ers
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Jamie D

Quote from: Mx. Lonely on August 27, 2013, 08:02:30 PM
A lot of European countries have co-ed open showers.  I wouldn't say that Europeans are overly disturbed people or that they are somehow negatively affected by seeing organs that they themselves don't have.  It think it must have something to do with religion.  Generally it's the more religious countries that seem to have the greatest discomfort with nudity.  And America, I think its just because nudity is sexualized by the media so much.

It has been a number of years since I have traveled in Europe.  I do not recall mixed-sex/gender communal showers in any of the hostels I stayed.  Of course, I preferred the hotels whenever possible.  I was primarily in the UK, Spain, Portugal, and Germany.
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DriftingCrow

Quote from: Mx. Lonely on August 27, 2013, 08:02:30 PM
A lot of European countries have co-ed open showers.  I wouldn't say that Europeans are overly disturbed people or that they are somehow negatively affected by seeing organs that they themselves don't have.  It think it must have something to do with religion.  Generally it's the more religious countries that seem to have the greatest discomfort with nudity.  And America, I think its just because nudity is sexualized by the media so much.

I don't think I'd have a problem seeing people with the opposite genitalia if I purposely went into a co-ed shower/bathroom. I am someone who's not disturbed by seeing people of the opposite sex and am certainly not disturbed by trans* people. But, I think the problem here in the USA is that there aren't much co-ed bathrooms or showers, so when someone goes in who clearly doesn't pass, people wonder "what's their purpose in coming in here?" Obviously, not everyone is knowledgeable on trans issues, and we've all heard too many stories of people getting raped at rest stops, etc. etc. that everyone has their guard up. I was once in the ladies room at a train station, it was empty except me, when suddenly, someone bursts in to the stall next to me, and in a very deep voice kept saying "too tight, too tight". It was really weird and I immediately though "oh my god, there's a man in here" -- it kind of freaked me out and I hurried out of there. Why? not because I am necessarily afraid of men or their parts (turns out it wasn't a man, but a heavy smoker) but because I am just so used to the gender segregation that it just immediately made my brain put up the alarm. So, it's not really religion that's the cause, just our sense of normalcy and instincts which cause people to get concerned when something is out of the ordinary. Edit to add: of course this doesn't make something right, as someone above made the analogy to racial segregation, white women in the deep south during Jim Crow laws would've been scared or even got violent if a black woman walked into the white restroom.

Of course, religion can play a role in some cases. Some people are just closed-minded bigots, and there's also religions that do have strict gender segregation (like Chassidic Judaism, Shakers, and some followers of Islam. . . ). People who follow strict gender segregation wouldn't be going into co-ed bathrooms or showers, and they'd probably just leave (or perhaps chase someone out of the place) if someone with non-matching genitals came into a shower or bathroom, and would likely be opposed to universal co-ed bathroom legislation. These people have rights too, the issue here though is that so does trans people, and it's difficult to find the right balance at times in our society.
ਮਨਿ ਜੀਤੈ ਜਗੁ ਜੀਤੁ
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Jamie D

Are we painting religious people as "close-minded bigots"?

I don't think I would be happy to read irreligious people are "open-minded bigots."
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Jamie D

I think my comment was more directed at the charged term, "close-minded bigot."

I never thought that invective was a good tactic to use to make friends.
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DriftingCrow

Well, I usually try to avoid strong language, there's plenty of non-religious people who are closed minded. But I was more thinking of Westboro Baptist Church, which I unapologetically use that term.
ਮਨਿ ਜੀਤੈ ਜਗੁ ਜੀਤੁ
  •  

Kelly-087

Im all for bathroom rights.. but Locker room not so much unless there's facilities where.. you know one can change without showing all.

I dont think that a transwoman who passes well is going to be any more comfortable for anyone, especially her in either locker room. Men really aren't going to be cool with it, and I dont think that showing your parts in a womens locker room is going to go over either.
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suzifrommd

Quote from: Kelly-087 on August 30, 2013, 03:40:29 PM
Im all for bathroom rights.. but Locker room not so much unless there's facilities where.. you know one can change without showing all.

I dont think that a transwoman who passes well is going to be any more comfortable for anyone, especially her in either locker room. Men really aren't going to be cool with it, and I dont think that showing your parts in a womens locker room is going to go over either.

Agreed. I actually think the California law might go a bit too far in that direction.
Have you read my short story The Eve of Triumph?
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LordKAT

My biggest problem with showers was always gang showers. Not safe there for even regular folks. I would not be that hard to make single stall showers like they have at the Y. Locker rooms would not be as much of a problem.
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Tessa James

This one really has me thinking and ready solutions are not jumping out.   I am working to get public accommodations or restrooms to be unisex when newly built.  I now confidently use the women's restroom.   However, as a non op transgender person I have reluctantly given up on the idea of ever going to a public pool for swimming.  Here most places have that large single sex shower area and no amount of tucking will reliably hide my penis.  The last thing we need is more people fearing us and this educational process could take a long time.  Till then I swim in the river.
Open, out and evolving queer trans person forever with HRT support since March 13, 2013
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