My two questions to christians

[Nikki_W]

I'm not here to pick fights with christians, but I've already made more posts about christianity than about transsexual topics. So after this thread if I see a thread is in the Spirituality forum I will disregard it.

Source

World Annual Death Rate: 8.67 deaths/1,000 population (2006 est.)

World Population 6,525,170,264 (July 2006 est.)

6,525,170,264/1000=6,525,170.264*8.67=56,573,226

56 MILLION died last year

Christians 33.03%

56,573,226 * .6697 = 37,887,089

37 MILLION people died last year not believing in your god

John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Matthew 7:13–14

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

37 MILLION people a year comes down to 1.2 people dying without believing in your god EVERY SECOND.

My two questions to every christian that reads this is

1. How many people do you believe DIED AND WENT TO HELL while you read this post?

2. If your answer to question #1 is a number greater than 0 why are you here reading this post instead of out dedicating every second of your life to decreasing that number by 1?

[Cindi Jones]

Oh Nikki... why in the world is this on your mind?    You know something else?  All those people that died believing in the Christian God.... They're dead too!  That's right, they be dead people.  All dead.

I've been up all night with an illness.  And I must say that your post here gave me quite a chuckle.  I know that you posted in a serious frame of mind.  But from the bottom of my heart, I thank you for putting a smile on my face on an otherwise dreary night.

Cindi

[Nikki_W]

Oh Nikki... why in the world is this on your mind? 

Because thankfully it's been years since I've had to deal as directly with christianity as I have recently on these forums. After James thread about public christianity I spent some time thinking about what my objection is. And in a nutshell it comes down to those two questions. If a christian in second hand clothes holding a well worn bible(or a new one because (s)he keeps giving his/hers away) came to my door I wouldn't mind. They wouldn't convert me but I'd have to respect their dedication to their beliefs. But millions of christians would rather spend an hour watching a football game than trying to reach people they believe are going to hell. For those christians who have no problems watching a football game believing 4320 people died and went to hell in that hour they sat entertaining themselves... I don't want to hear about respecting their beliefs when they so obviously care so little about the people around them. I don't want to hear them tell me how I should live my life when they think at the end if it I'm going to hell and all they care is what I do now. And I certainly don't want to waste 5 minutes of my life listening to some christian invite me to church sunday so he can feel better about the hour of his life he wasted on that football game. Anyone who calls themselves a christian and believes the bible is the word of god, if they want me to respect their beliefs they should live like they believe it themselves.

You know something else?  All those people that died believing in the Christian God.... They're dead too!  That's right, they be dead people.  All dead.

*cracks up* very true and I believe when you die it's over. So my goal should be to live every second based on the belief that a second I spend unhappy is a precious second of my short life I just wasted. Easier said than done(emotions suck lol) but I think I've really altered my focus in life since I spent a week going to sleep not knowing if I was gonna be alive two hours later to be woken up for a breathing test.

I've been up all night with an illness.  And I must say that your post here gave me quite a chuckle.  I know that you posted in a serious frame of mind.  But from the bottom of my heart, I thank you for putting a smile on my face on an otherwise dreary night.

Glad I could help, hope you feel better.

Edit: Oooo... 15 is the magic number, I just saw the option to applaud you. I'm out of jail :-)

[Cindi Jones]

Well for those types, I'm glad that they are watching their football game instead of parked on my porch!

No one can tell me how to live my life.  I do the best I can.  I enjoy my life.  If that will land me in hell, well, then we'll do some redecorating, turn down the heat, kick Satan out, and have a party.

Personally, I could never believe in the hell part.  Why would a "loving" god condemn his own children to a "hell"?  It makes no sense.  But that's what makes the power play work. Follow me or you are doomed. Do what I say or you are doomed. For those that rule, hell was invented. That can not be something that Christ taught.  I can't believe that it was in him.

I really get the impression that Christ would not have created an organized religion.  I don't believe that was his style.  It was more of a "hey let's get together and enrich each others' lives" sort of thing.  When I see the tapestry, pomp, and circumstance of the organized faiths, I can't connect them to a poor man wandering Galilee in an old frock sharing his wisdom.

Cindi

[Nikki_W]

No one can tell me how to live my life.  I do the best I can.  I enjoy my life.  If that will land me in hell, well, then we'll do some redecorating, turn down the heat, kick Satan out, and have a party.

Woot! save me a spot on the dance floor :-)

[Tiffany Elise]

Nikki;
  I'm a Christian and I am here because I believe that we should allow the Spirit of God to guide people to us and not beat them over the head with a Bible. It's like using the whole word of God. Tell all whom the Lord leads to us.
  Sadly, I'm not accepted on straight site and from what I see of straight Christian sites I find it better to come here and learn about othe issues in my life that straight Christians can't deal with and just blindly condemn me for anyway.
  Tiff

[Brianna]

Nikki_W,

I couldn't agree more with what you are saying. This single point you are making is one of the major reasons I came to the conclusion that Christianity was just a lie. If you consider all the people who die every day without hearing about the aleged Jesus - it's astonishing. Under Baptist theology, even the Pope and mother Teresa will burn in hell. It's just absurd to belive, I think.

And you know, I hear you making tepid apologies somewhat for this line of reasoning. I feel that a transgender site is a quite reasonable place to pose very hard questions to the ideology that hates and opresses us.

Bri

[Nikki_W]

And you know, I hear you making tepid apologies somewhat for this line of reasoning. I feel that a transgender site is a quite reasonable place to pose very hard questions to the ideology that hates and opresses us.

I'm not making apologies I can't think of a single thing more selfish than believing you are going to heaven when you die and believing without the information you hold other people will go to hell when they die, but not doing EVERYTHING in your power to prevent as many people as possible from going to hell.

I'm not making apologies for this post unless it's to myself. Christians can think they are going to heaven when they die and their time here on earth is their time to waste. I don't, my time on earth is my time to live and when I'm staring death in the face and ask myself if I did everything I could to maximize what I got out of my life I don't want my memories to be those of arguing with selfish hypocritical people. I cheered Cindi up last night so all is not lost but for the most part I consider time spent on the Spirituality forum arguing with christians to be time I lost that I didn't have to waste.

[Ricki]

Hmmmmmmmmmm
This is very curious to me.
I have my own beliefs and do not really get involved much with what others believe or not believe i feel that is for them to consider and have in their life's work.  I am one of those maybe more rare-minded people that sidelines a lot of what some others see or put out there, I just simply do not let it rent space in my head.  I have way to many other issues to contend with in my life.  unfortunately religion is not one of them i waste a lot of time mulling over....
I have mine and what i have and i do not try and do anything beyond that normally?
I just sometimes wonder why all of this bothers so many people or why its such an issue? 
Is an issue or someone elses problem only a problem if you let it become one of yours too?  I dunno just thinking that outloud!
anyway post away Nikki everyone should be able to express themselves anyway they need to!
hugs
Ricki

[katia]

I believe when you die it's over.

i won't go to hell, then?

terrific questions nikki!

[Kimberly]

...
I believe when you die it's over.
...

Ah, if only...

But more to the point of the topic... lets just say my understanding, which is perhaps flawed, is that the followers were not meant to devote 24/7 of their lives to herding up people as it were.  Regardless I tend to agree with the view that not all Christians are actually Christians.  However, I am sure I am not so I will just shush now.

^{*small voice*} Not all people are bad people. Most are simply busy living their own lives as best they can. Blame them not for trying.

[Buffy]

Firstly I don't believe at all in God, but I do believe that people have the right to believe in what ever they wish if they find happiness in that. What is written below is my own personal feelings.

I believe man created God, not the other way round, I can find no evidence that shows me that a higher being actually exists any thing I wish to believe in can in my opinion be explained by science or the force of nature.

Personaly, I have also found that within most religions, Christians tend too be the biggest hypocrits and I am yet to find anyone that can profess to not breaking any of the 10 commandments.

Religion has always been a way to control people, to manipulate how people think and indeed act.....

At University I was invited to a dinner by a Pentecostalist friend, It was a "Bring a Sinners" evening and I guess I was viewed as a sinner. I was treated to a variety of Murderers, Rapists and wife beaters, who stood up and talked about how they had repented and found God and where now "Good People"

Being TS I have also seen how unforgiving as me, with a medical condition some of the professed Christian people I know are. I am deemed unworthy as in the eyes of God, I have committed a sin by changing gender.

I decided that I have not done enough bad things in my life to be Christian.

Buffy

[Chaunte]

No, I do not believe that people go to hell if they are not Christian ... or Jewish, or Muslim or whatever.  And, no, I do not believe that atheists go to hell, either.

Organized religion should be about sharing our experiences with the Almighty, both past and present.  Problems come up when the power trips begin - when someone stands up and says, "Do THIS and not THAT, or G-d will be very angry...!"  THis is when the Almighty suddenly sounds like a spoiled child.

I believe that when the Second Comming occurs, we will find Jesus working inthe soup kitchens of NYC; helping the poor in Calcutta; feeding and providing cool water in Dafur; holding the hand of someone dying of AIDS...

And we will find Jesus sitting in with our LGBT support groups.  Listening.  Comforting.  And encouraging us to be who we truly are.

Chaunte

[jamesBrine]

hello,
    Wow, what a topic. First of all I would like to thank Nikki_W for posting such an important topic regarding the Christian faith. I have enjoyed reading all the responses and hope to continue to do so in the near future. Nikki_W thanks agian for the question.

[Nikki_W]

hello,
    Wow, what a topic. First of all I would like to thank Nikki_W for posting such an important topic regarding the Christian faith. I have enjoyed reading all the responses and hope to continue to do so in the near future. Nikki_W thanks agian for the question.

Given that you consider this topic so important would you like to pitch in with your own answers?

[jamesBrine]

hello,
I would really love to pitch in my answer. Due to the magnitude of this question I was going to post my response within a couple of days so I could think over my words carefully and what I want to say. My apologies for the delay in my response.

[Cindi Jones]

The Mormons believe that all will have the opportunity to hear the gospel.  That is why they perform ordinances for the dead in their temples.  That way if they only get a chance to learn about God in the afterlife, their ordinances will be done.

For what it is worth.

Cindi

[Suzy]

I'm not here to pick fights with christians...

Are you serious?  It sounds like that's just what you are intending to do.  For what purpose?  You could have accomplished the same thing by saying "I don't believe in Christianity because......."  In about 3 sentences your argument would have been made and respected.

I don't usually get into arguments which are nothing more than rhetorical questions in the guise of intelligent questions.  I really don't want to respond in turn.  What if I asked you:  How can any athiest sleep at night knowing that one day they will wake up in hell?  The question is fallacious from the start because it makes assumptions of "every Christian" that are not true.  It is either an argument in the form of a question, or nothing but a trap, and the answer has already been written to pounce on any Christian who dares answer it.  The way the question is framed reminds me of the old classic:  Have you stopped beating your wife yet?

However, since you asked, and in case you really do want to know, I'll give you a little bit of my views.  Yes, Christians are supposed to share their faith with others.  That is a given.  And you are right, Nikki, that those who don't are being very selfish.  On that we agree.

But how are we to share the faith?  In essence, it is in becoming like Christ, which often bears little resemblance to the stereotype you have portrayed.  As I've said in other posts, Christ was a true radical.  It is hard to argue with the assertion that if all of us lived the kind of love He taught, this world would be a much better place.  And I find that most people are not too turned off by Jesus.  Mostly they are turned off by their experience of the church.

That being said, I think that the scripture passage you allude to is found in Matthew 28:19, often called the Great Commission.  In most English translations it says, ""Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations..." or something close to that.  English is a miserable language compared to some others.  In Greek this is a present active participle.  All that means is that the most accurate translation into today's language would be something like "While going into the world, make disciples..."  In other words, it is assumed that Christians will be going lots of places.  That still happens today.  While we are going about our daily lives, wherever life takes us, we are to so model Christianity that others will want to follow as well.  This is what becomes problematic.  Christians, like everybody else, are humans.  They mess up, some quite badly.  We have taken the Great Commission and turned it into the Great Omission.  I like what one theologians says:  The only problem with Christianity is that no one has ever really tried it.

Buffy is right that she will not find anyone that can profess to not breaking any of the 10 commandments.  This is why grace and forgiveness are needed, daily.  However, it is not my job to save anyone.  It is not my responsibility even if someone sees the good news modeled perfectly and still rejects it.  That is the job of the Holy Spirit.  And I will let God worry about the particulars.

Finally,  the bulk of what Jesus taught is not really about going to heaven or hell.  It is about following a true and living way.  It is about a God who "loved the world so much that He gave..."  It is about self-sacrifice and seeing others as even more important that yourself.  It is about being set free from failures, past and present to experience what life was meant to be.  It is about a powerful, unexpected good news for any who wish to receive it.  Anything else is a fringe benefit at best. 

Peace,
Kristi

[Brianna]

Kristi,

Wow. If you feel enboldened with the right to peddle your Christianity in my face, is there a single reason in the world I shouldn't try to peddle my hardline atheism back into yours? Is there a reason I shouldn't go knock on your doors and try to convince you not to go to church, not to worship the aleged jesus and not to follow the teachings of the aleged bible?

No, you say? Oh, why is that? Because it's not respectful of your beliefs?

Exactly.

Bri

[Nikki_W]

I'm not here to pick fights with christians...

Are you serious?  It sounds like that's just what you are intending to do.  For what purpose?  You could have accomplished the same thing by saying "I don't believe in Christianity because......."  In about 3 sentences your argument would have been made and respected.

Very serious and I've discovered the ignore forums setting today. After this thread dies I will be using that option on this forum.

I don't usually get into arguments which are nothing more than rhetorical questions in the guise of intelligent quetions.  I really don't want to respond in turn.  The way the question is framed reminds me of the old classic:  Have you stopped beating your wife yet?

For not wanting to "respond in turn" this is pretty insulting.

However, since you asked, and in case you really do want to know, I'll give you a little bit of my views.  Yes, Christians are supposed to share their faith with others.  That is a given.  And you are right, Nikki, that those who don't are being very selfish.  On that we agree.

No I wasn't referring to the "great commission" and consider it rather irrelevant to my question. I wasn't asking why christians don't do "x" item the bible tells them to. If that was the question I could ask why people leave church then run a stop sign on the way out of the parking lot.

You've framed you answer in terms of following your obligations to the bible. I didn't quote matthew because I wasn't asking about obligations. I don't know what you believe, Chaunte doesn't believe there is a hell so my question wasn't directed to her. The church I grew up in did teach a hell and if you die and your not "saved" you go to that hell to burn for eternity. If you believe that if you really truely believe the non-believer next to you is going to hell to burn with no end or relief to their suffering. What is more important than doing everything in your power to prevent people from suffering that fate. I'm not asking in terms of what your bible tells you your obligations are I'm asking in terms of you as a human how can you sleep at night believing people you know will suffer like that and knowing your not doing everything possible to prevent that suffering.

The question isn't rhetorical back when I was a kid and believed this stuff I spent many nights laying awake asking myself those two questions. And I'm ashamed to say my response was well my parents don't my pastor doesn't no one I know does why should I? But personal responsibility for your actions and beliefs isn't about your community is it? It's about what do YOU believe and are YOU acting on those beliefs.

Yes I hate christianity but my questions weren't directed at attacking the religion my questions were serious boil it all down questions for it's adherents.