Acting Female

[Asfsd4214]

Your argument seems to lack is an example of what you DO think helps someone pass.

Thus, your posts sound a little negative... because I don't recall you actually agreeing with anybody's post in here. You don't have to agree, nor do you have to offer suggestions... it just makes it hard to understand where you are coming from. You have made it abundantly clear what you DON'T think. It can therefore be very hard trying to read between your lines.

I get the impression you may not think anything does, or that passing is not particularly important to you.

You're right, ok, here's what I think some positive things to work on are.

1. Voice, voice is the biggest thing you have a fairly large degree of control over, and it is IMO one of the most important attributes of passing, I think you and I probably agree in this regard.

2. Hormones, not so much what you take or how much you take it, but your blood hormone levels, make sure they're right, this is particularly relevant if you're in the younger age demographic (27 or younger). Testosterone levels particularly. Hormones can do a LOT to help physical passability. Not always, unfortunately not in the older demographic (not that it's not still important, just not as important). Ask for your blood test results and learn about Androgen and its relationship to SHBG and ensure your testosterone levels are within the natel female range. Contrary to the common thinking promoted by this forum, doctors most certainly do make mistakes and don't know everything. You have a right to a second opinion and a right to see your results first hand.

3. This is where things rapidly loose importance, as I've said before I think Voice, face, and body shape are the most important things. Unfortunately body shape is where your options become very limited. You will have a lot more trouble passing if you're over the upper range of average female height (about 6 ft at most). That's not to say you CAN'T pass, but it will make it more difficult, especially at a distance. You can not wear heels, dress to accommodate your figure, but unfortunately options here are getting limited in effectiveness.

Finally, I'm going to bring up voice again, this is not what you say or the words you say but the actual sound of your voice. Shoot to be able to pass over the phone, when you can do that that's a good sign.

Those are my positive options on what you can do to help passing.

[Korra]

>>To OP


I'm kind of hoping after a while I won't have to act.  I realize certain mannerisms and what not clock you as female immediately but I'm already noticing the more i plan on transitioning and thinking about it im subconsciously doing things more feminine rather I mean to or not.  I'll just notice the way im resting my hand on my neck or something while i watch tv, or ive had friends point out " why are you sitting like that?" and etc..  I'm not intentionally making an effort nor do I even care if it does, I just wanna be myself.  I'd feel pretty odd if i just started copying women completely, even if it did help me pass better its just not who I am.  Not that I'm saying there's anything wrong with those who do choose to follow this route, just not for me.  If i pick up some mannerism or I don't I'll be okay. 

[Tori]

It is just not your workplace. I have had the same experience myself. Comments I know I would have got away with as a male drew frowns and disapproval. One woman I know took me to the side and told me (summarising) that if I want to be accepted as female then I need to put up with the baggage that comes with it and that means a different approach to expressing myself. She meant it in the nicest and most helpful way so I thanked her for it and amended my behaviour. It was a valuable lesson.

I have learned that most males will happily ignore women and that we are not 'allowed' to offer opinions or give direction to a male. We can only suggest, request or plead. Anything else puts their back up.


Beverley

As you sleep Beverley, I owe you a reply.

I did not properly reply to this post last night because frankly, it blew my mind. It also touches upon what Pebbles said.

Women often do play a different role than men. This role can be humbling... especially for a MtF who has been accepted as male. There are some perks that come with being the wrong sex. In many ways, I will miss my masculine self. The ability to walk through the scary part of town alone at night. The ability to be a jerk, and yet be met with laughter.

That said, I have said and done things as a man, which have caused problems a woman never would have encountered by saying or doing the same thing.

I was born a female in my mind. But, being a guy does not ALWAYS suck... just most of the time. There are things I will miss.

Instead of being a jerk, I will be seen as sassy or bitchy. I will likely avoid the bad parts of town when I am alone weather I pass or not. I am opinionated. People may ignore my opinions more often.

Your post gets to the crux of this thread.

As always, thank you Beverley.

Tori

[Stephe]

It's laughable to me that you would assert that I am forcing my views on to anyone. Go back and read my posts.

Well you say "In my opinion, not that me saying that gets noticed either... I think that's delusional." So you say you feel if someone doesn't feel the same way as you do they are delusional. Hun THAT is discounting everyone's opinion other than your own. You can say "I may be wrong" but then 1 paragraph later say people are crazy if they don't think the same way you do.

I have read your posts, maybe you should try objectively reading your own? You come off as a "I know everything, you guys are idiots" type person in your posts here.

[Stephe]

I seriously doubt there is a large percentage of TS that can really spare to not have correct posture if people want to seriously take them as female.

Exactly the whole point. Clearly you can't have someone like Cindy Crawford stand like a man (only) and her be clocked as one.

All this adds up when the main gender clues aren't clear. Of course some TS's are 100% passable females but that isn't the norm. Most of us need to use all the tools available. Things like voice, mannerisms,  posture hair, clothes etc add up, you get enough check boxs in a gender checked and that's what you are. And personally I don't care is someone is "just being polite", I'm TG and not ashamed of my past. It just is. I do want to be treated with respect and as a woman which I am. I'm not going to spend my time being paranoid about "Do they REALLY think I'm a woman or are they just treating and accepting me as one?"

BTW I can say for a fact anyone who doesn't believe your confidence/attitude matters is delusional

[Stephe]

You're right, ok, here's what I think some positive things to work on are.

1. Voice, voice is the biggest thing you have a fairly large degree of control over, and it is IMO one of the most important attributes of passing, I think you and I probably agree in this regard.

While I agree on the voice being important, there are many times when you never speak. Or if you rely on your voice to pass it's too late by the time you talk. I'm never sir'd on the phone anymore but I'm sure not going to start ACTING like a man again because I think I have this covered.

Say some guys are being you in the mall you in the mall, you're wearing a cute skirt but walking/standing *acting* like a guy. They can't see your face or hear your voice. You think hormones alone will make you pass? Highly doubt that.

[Tori]

>>To OP


I'm kind of hoping after a while I won't have to act.  I realize certain mannerisms and what not clock you as female immediately but I'm already noticing the more i plan on transitioning and thinking about it im subconsciously doing things more feminine rather I mean to or not.  I'll just notice the way im resting my hand on my neck or something while i watch tv, or ive had friends point out " why are you sitting like that?" and etc..  I'm not intentionally making an effort nor do I even care if it does, I just wanna be myself.  I'd feel pretty odd if i just started copying women completely, even if it did help me pass better its just not who I am.  Not that I'm saying there's anything wrong with those who do choose to follow this route, just not for me.  If i pick up some mannerism or I don't I'll be okay. 

There is a reason why actors rehearse. It is to make performance effortless. Eventually, you don't have to work at doing something... you just know how to do it.

When an actor is TRYING to act, an audience can tell. When an actor just does things as their character should, no alarms go off.

This can apply this to MtF's as well. Practice makes perfect. If you practice a behavior and you don't like it... don't assimilate it into your role in life. If you don't like it, nobody else will.

You and I are both in the same boat. Pre-HRT. I too have noticed subconscious changes in my behavior.

Even without hormones, I say I am transitioning now. While medicine may not agree with me, my mind does. Simply by choosing to be in transition, my dysphoria has ebbed, and I am happy 90% of the time. This is new to me.

In case you are wondering, no I do not spend my time acting girly while I wait for hormones.

As an actor, we are taught to avoid stereotypes. Rather, we look for the archetype and go from there.

An archetype is universal. If I ask y'all to think of and describe a lion, the things you all agree upon would be an archetypal lion.

To play a stereotypical woman would be too much. Society would likely find offense in your endeavor.

To be an archetypal female is to become your feminine self, this is your feminine neutral. You can add your own personality traits and habits from there and become an honest individual with a chance at passing even without surgery. This is especially important for mature MtF women if they wish too pass completely. A late transition comes with its own benefits and obstacles.

[Tori]

You're right, ok, here's what I think some positive things to work on are.

1. Voice, voice is the biggest thing you have a fairly large degree of control over, and it is IMO one of the most important attributes of passing, I think you and I probably agree in this regard.

2. Hormones, not so much what you take or how much you take it, but your blood hormone levels, make sure they're right, this is particularly relevant if you're in the younger age demographic (27 or younger). Testosterone levels particularly. Hormones can do a LOT to help physical passability. Not always, unfortunately not in the older demographic (not that it's not still important, just not as important). Ask for your blood test results and learn about Androgen and its relationship to SHBG and ensure your testosterone levels are within the natel female range. Contrary to the common thinking promoted by this forum, doctors most certainly do make mistakes and don't know everything. You have a right to a second opinion and a right to see your results first hand.

3. This is where things rapidly loose importance, as I've said before I think Voice, face, and body shape are the most important things. Unfortunately body shape is where your options become very limited. You will have a lot more trouble passing if you're over the upper range of average female height (about 6 ft at most). That's not to say you CAN'T pass, but it will make it more difficult, especially at a distance. You can not wear heels, dress to accommodate your figure, but unfortunately options here are getting limited in effectiveness.

Finally, I'm going to bring up voice again, this is not what you say or the words you say but the actual sound of your voice. Shoot to be able to pass over the phone, when you can do that that's a good sign.

Those are my positive options on what you can do to help passing.

Thank you so much for your reply.

1. I agree voice is important.

2. I agree hormones are important. But your suggestion that it primarily helps the young is going to be met with defensiveness by mature MtF women. While there is truth in what you say, people wait to transition for a variety of reasons... and as ciswomen mature, they look more and more manly. To fault a tall, middle-aged MtF woman for being tall and middle aged will likely re-enforce the dysphoria they have struggled with for longer than you or others. Tread carefully. Mature adults have a chance to develop life skills which young'uns don't even begin to perceive. Do not underestimate the ability of a mature MtF female to pass. Also, be careful with their dysphoria. They have suffered enough.

I suspect you can relate on a certain level. And I suspect this is why physical behavior is a topic that seems to bother you.

3. You may not need a step three but many others do... especially if they are tall, matured, and/or have a manly frame.

[Asfsd4214]

2. I agree hormones are important. But your suggestion that it primarily helps the young is going to be met with defensiveness by mature MtF women. While there is truth in what you say, people wait to transition for a variety of reasons... and as ciswomen mature, they look more and more manly. To fault a tall, middle-aged MtF woman for being tall and middle aged will likely re-enforce the dysphoria they have struggled with for longer than you or others. Tread carefully. Mature adults have a chance to develop life skills which young'uns don't even begin to perceive. Do not underestimate the ability of a mature MtF female to pass. Also, be careful with their dysphoria. They have suffered enough.

I'm not saying older trans people can't pass, just stating my belief that hormones will not have as much of an impact as a younger person.

Some people can't pass, it's a horrible but unfortunate truth, and normally I wouldn't say it but I've been asked my viewpoint on the matter in response to my more politically correct viewpoints, so I gave it.

While I agree on the voice being important, there are many times when you never speak. Or if you rely on your voice to pass it's too late by the time you talk. I'm never sir'd on the phone anymore but I'm sure not going to start ACTING like a man again because I think I have this covered.

Say some guys are being you in the mall you in the mall, you're wearing a cute skirt but walking/standing *acting* like a guy. They can't see your face or hear your voice. You think hormones alone will make you pass? Highly doubt that.

I don't doubt it at all. If that were true, women would be getting attacked in the mall all the time. You think if I sent some young woman into the mall and had her walk 'manly', whatever that is, she would be read as male? I don't see it happening, I just don't.

I see it constantly referred to trans people in these hypotheticals, but not cis people doing the same behaviour. Again I think it comes down to a double standard, and baseline passability that the transcommunity believes in which is not in fact very passable.

Additionally, I don't believe in your "too late by the time you talk" mentality. I've had plenty of times where I've seen an androgynous person and thought "I think that's a guy". Then they've spoken and I've instantly changed my mind and not back.

Well you say "In my opinion, not that me saying that gets noticed either... I think that's delusional." So you say you feel if someone doesn't feel the same way as you do they are delusional. Hun THAT is discounting everyone's opinion other than your own. You can say "I may be wrong" but then 1 paragraph later say people are crazy if they don't think the same way you do.

I have read your posts, maybe you should try objectively reading your own? You come off as a "I know everything, you guys are idiots" type person in your posts here.

I did not say people are crazy, I said "I think that's delusional". I think.

I have read your posts, maybe you should try objectively reading your own? You come off as a "If you disagree with me then you're forcing your opinions on to me and I have no respect for alternative opinions to my own" type person in your posts here.

I have tried SO hard to be respectful and accepting here. But you seem to think nobody has any right to post an opinion you don't like, even if they SAY it's their opinion, and SAY they could be wrong.

You show complete lack of respect of my opinion, and so far are the only poster on this thread who I have disagreed with but have lost respect for as a result.

I may not agree with Tori but at least she has been respectful and managed to conduct herself in engaging in a mature conversation.

This mindset of "you disagree with me which means you can't voice that opinion" is something I hate so much about the very community that is supposed to support us. People like you are why I have such a negative opinion of the transgender community. It's not a community for transgender people, it's a community for people who are transgender and share the politically correct viewpoints of the community as a whole. Any descent in the party line is met with contempt.

[Asfsd4214]

Good morning! Time for a nice green tea and some reading.


Well, it was Pebbles that raised the point, but it is a strong point in relation to this discussion. Whether you pass or not, how you behave determines acceptance amongst both males and females. If you want to be accepted as a woman you better behave like one especially amongst other women.

Why did it blow your mind?


Yes indeed. I have seen girls being laughed at by other girls because "she walks like a man". I have heard them refer to other girls as "a brute" or "blokish". Teenage girls are especially cruel. My daughter has one friend who is nearly 6 feet tall and big framed. She does not walk, she stomps. She little grace in her movements and she does draw looks because she does look strange. Her self confidence is not high and she has not done well at school because she does not like going outside the house. Why? Because of the comments. She has overheard enough of them to know she is seen as blokish and it hurts. She is taunted for nothing more than being alive and not acting feminine enough.

Women do get read as male (see "the lesbian in the ladies' toilet incident").

Beverley

Being mistreated and mocked as being masculine is not the same as being read as male. Posture and mannerisms are personality attributes, and the wrong ones DO get rejection in society, but I don't think they truly get you misread.

She is seen as blokish but do think anyone actually, honestly, thinks she's trans because of it? I tend to doubt it.

[Asfsd4214]

She gets mocked because she sends out masculine signals when she is clearly female. People find the dissonance jarring so they poke fun at her.

People respond to body language. This is not my opinion, it is an established fact in psychology. A huge amount of our communication is based on non-verbal cues, we say a lot without ever opening our mouths. Body language has accents like any other language and the female accent is different from the male. That is why if you look female but send out male signals then you will draw attention to yourself and a large part of passing is the art of never being noticed in the first place.


Of course nobody sees her as trans, that is not the point I was making. I was pointing out that natal women who send out male signals get lambasted, so by extension a transwoman who sends out male signals is also in for a bad day. The same mechanism kicks in - people zero in on anything that does not blend in.

Beverley

Then I think what we have is simply a miscommunication. I'm talking about passing as a member of a particular gender, not about being rejected in certain social circles due to gender-in-congruent personal behaviour. I don't disagree that those behaviours can lead to various forms of social alienation.

I disagree that passing is about not being seen as weird, to me it's about not being seen as an actual member of the gender you don't identify as.

[Asfsd4214]

I will have to think about that.

Beverley

Ok that was a horrible double negative way of saying what I meant.

What I mean is, passing, to me, is about being perceived by others as a member of the gender you identify as.
If you have achieved that, it shouldn't matter how you dress or walk or act or your accent. Because plenty of women and men act weird in those ways but aren't misgendered as a result.

If you are so borderline that these tiny things make a real difference, I'm not convinced people aren't humoring you, and that this constitutes passing as I interpret the term.

[ByeBye]

I am interested in what you all think about gender roles.

What behaviors did you eventually learn you needed to change? How did you go about changing them?

How much conscious thought do/did you put into "acting" female compared to being yourself?

I have noticed my physical behavior changes drastically when I am with people who know I am MtF. I just act more feminine. I don't put much conscious thought into it. Instead, I am often surprised to catch myself making girls sounds or gestures.

I have played a man for most of my life. I have trouble believing that by just being myself I will act completely female.

What have y'all worked on? What do you all consider going too far?

Tori

I don't really consider myself to have "worked" on anything but sensitizing my body. Everything else came naturally. I don't consider becoming a woman to be acting, or pretending. I consider my womanity to be the real thing. I now consider boy mode to be pretending to be someone I'm really not.

[Tori]

I don't really consider myself to have "worked" on anything but sensitizing my body. Everything else came naturally. I don't consider becoming a woman to be acting, or pretending. I consider my womanity to be the real thing. I now consider boy mode to be pretending to be someone I'm really not.

May I ask how old you are? How long have you been on hormones?

This effects my answers.

[Tori]

Good morning! Time for a nice green tea and some reading.

Well, it was Pebbles that raised the point, but it is a strong point in relation to this discussion. Whether you pass or not, how you behave determines acceptance amongst both males and females. If you want to be accepted as a woman you better behave like one especially amongst other women.

Why did it blow your mind?).

Beverley

I love green tea! I am having some now... even though it is late here.

What blew my mind is simple in hindsight.

OTHER WOMEN enforce this gender role.

I thought it was a male dominance thing.

Nope.

WOMEN embrace it and thrive within it. They CHOOSE to play the part.

That is crazy talk according to my T filled brain.

Hence, "Women ".

[Tori]

Where have you been all your life? What happens if, as a man, you act in an unmanly way around other men? Men enforce their rules too - "Take it like a man", or "real men don't cry", or "Stop acting like a bl**dy woman", etc, etc.

All the world's a stage....

Bev

Touché.

Tori

[Stephe]

This mindset of "you disagree with me which means you can't voice that opinion" is something I hate so much about the very community that is supposed to support us.

Then stop doing it.

I've been living as a trans person for over a decade, I've been living full time "passing" as female for several years, but you discount my opinions and others here because you feel the general public looks at people the same way you, as a TG looks at people? That's just not the reality I have seen in the real world.

I could care less if you respect me or not. This line of nonsense is just another debate tactic to stand firm on your point of view. I'm done playing your little semantics games. I know that -acting- like a woman is part of being a woman in the eyes of other people. You fail to answer even the simplest of questions, (how is a MTF going to pass from behind if they are standing like a guy hence look like a guy? No amount of hormones or voice is gonna make them pass..) then you turn to the redirection nonsense.

[Stephe]

Where have you been all your life? What happens if, as a man, you act in an unmanly way around other men? Men enforce their rules too - "Take it like a man", or "real men don't cry", or "Stop acting like a bl**dy woman", etc, etc.

Exactly. Like today I was walking through a busy lobby, several women smiled and said a quiet hello or hi back when I said it to them. Guys nod at me, I look away and give a small smile in return. Turn this around, Guys don't greet each other this way and guys ALWAYS return the head nod. I have NEVER seen a woman do that. Gender specific actions. Ignore this stuff and watch what happens if you look like a woman and return a head nod to a guy. It WILL start mixed signals because that's not how women socially respond.

I know some people want to believe passing as female is as simple as taking some pills, having a bit of surgery and maybe taking a few voice classes online. Good luck in the real world with that!

[Asfsd4214]

Then stop doing it.

I've been living as a trans person for over a decade, I've been living full time "passing" as female for several years, but you discount my opinions and others here because you feel the general public looks at people the same way you, as a TG looks at people? That's just not the reality I have seen in the real world.

I could care less if you respect me or not. This line of nonsense is just another debate tactic to stand firm on your point of view. I'm done playing your little semantics games. I know that -acting- like a woman is part of being a woman in the eyes of other people. You fail to answer even the simplest of questions, (how is a MTF going to pass from behind if they are standing like a guy hence look like a guy? No amount of hormones or voice is gonna make them pass..) then you turn to the redirection nonsense.

The irony here is so funny I'm finding it hard to be mad.

I in fact did answer exactly that question, but apparently it wasn't clear enough...

You don't NEED to pass in that situation, when I see people with an ambiguous body shape from behind my brain doesn't gender them until I see more cues.

Exactly. Like today I was walking through a busy lobby, several women smiled and said a quiet hello or hi back when I said it to them. Guys nod at me, I look away and give a small smile in return. Turn this around, Guys don't greet each other this way and guys ALWAYS return the head nod. I have NEVER seen a woman do that. Gender specific actions. Ignore this stuff and watch what happens if you look like a woman and return a head nod to a guy. It WILL start mixed signals because that's not how women socially respond.

I know some people want to believe passing as female is as simple as taking some pills, having a bit of surgery and maybe taking a few voice classes online. Good luck in the real world with that!

I live in the real world thank you very much. Are you really so arrogant as to believe nobody can humor you? And I'm not saying they are, but that you don't consider it is pretty interesting.

Come on, head nods determine gender? This is ridiculous. If you want to behave like a parody of women because you, apparently, have believed you have passed for the past "several" (i.e. more than 2) years out of the past "over a decade" (i.e. more then 10), then that's your right to do so. It's my right to believe what I believe too as much as that might distress you.

You're so desperate to play the credentials card? I started passing wearing gender neutral bordering on masculine clothes, walking and talking however I want, within a year or starting my transition. When people see me, they don't know I'm trying to be seen as female... they see my face, body shape, and hear my voice, and work it out. Just like 99.9% of the population.

When people see you, and I'm only speculating here, I could be dead wrong. But I suspect when people see you, IF you in fact don't pass and think you do (and I'm not saying I know that for sure either), they see your exaggerated walking and clothing and make up and know you're trying to pass as female, and humor you.

Again, this is only a speculation, to highlight why I believe the things I do.

But hey, you don't respect my right to voice an opinion, and I guess that's one way we're alike. I don't care.

[Asfsd4214]

For the record, since I've been accused, accurately, of being overly negative...

My opinion based on your picture, is that you do pass in the context of that picture (not knowing your height or body shape it's relatively limited information)

I read the thread about your voice, in my opinion your voice does pass for female, however at the moment it is unusual and could provoke attention.

You may well pass in the way I define passing for all I know. What I disagree with is your attitude of "expressing a contrary opinion to me is suppressing mine, so i'll suppress yours!".