What do you think about today trend of girly males, is it good for us (mtf)?

[Miki]

... because it ends the stupid rule that 'males have to be masculine', something that we should really feel for seeing that we grew up as 'feminine boys' (from society's perspective) and had the same issues ourselves.

That is not a universal experience.  It was not mine, at all.

There's a risk of condemning "males being masculine" as a knee-jerk reaction to personal experiences struggling with that expectation.

If every aspect of gender expression is homogenized, that doesn't really solve anything, it just blurs the lines so badly that distinctions are irrelevant.  For me, that falls into a "perfect world" scenario and feels more than a little unrealistic and pipe-dream politically correct.

ymmv.

-Miki

[Trans Truth]

That is not a universal experience.  It was not mine, at all.

There's a risk of condemning "males being masculine" as a knee-jerk reaction to personal experiences struggling with that expectation.

It may not be an universal experience, but this is an MTF forum after all, I'd expect most of us to have had that experience.

I'm not condemning males being masculine, I'm just condemning the unhealthy expectations that they HAVE TO BE. Males can be anything, really, and I have nothing against masculinity per se.

[Annah]

I did not grow up feminine at all. So be careful about assuming that is the majority of how MtFs are.

This was me in 2008




So no. It is not the general rule that MtF were once feminine boys

[JenJen2011]

Some posters say the majority of mtf's were feminine boys, others say the majority were masculine straight men. Who the freak cares!!!

[Annah]

Some posters say the majority of mtf's were feminine boys, others say the majority were masculine straight men. Who the freak cares!!!

it becomes a problem when people start to generalize people. Generalization of people, sexes, cultures, and beliefs often leads to a stereotype. A stereotype often leads to misunderstanding. And misunderstanding may often lead to an unfair judgement of a person regardless of their sex, gender, culture, or belief.

[supremecatoverlord]

Some posters say the majority of mtf's were feminine boys, others say the majority were masculine straight men. Who the freak cares!!!

Exactly.

[MacKenzie]

Andrej and Bill aren't MTF's and therefore born men in dresses and in make up (and not under wigs, judging from their natural looking hair)

But they are totally convincing natural feminine looking and acting AND they are themselves.

Most MTF's I've known and have seen are very masculine looking (that can be altered by FFS if one can afford that) and (very) masculine acting which isn't a surprise considering the fact they used to be straight men.

In other words: their 'claim to womanhood' doesn't come from the inside....instead of that their deep rooted masculinity comes from their inside.

Totally conflicting and confusing to look at  and listen to, not to mention sensing one's masculinity.

And they are very often the ones that consider feminine behaviour, hobbies, likes, dislikes, interest in beauty, fashion, a feminine profession as something negative.

<The hostility and abuse from INSIDE the transgender community is simply amazing.>

And so is the sometimes rampant homophobia towards 'effeminate' gay men from former straight men/MTF lesbians very amazing too!

  This is very true, I wish there were a nicer way to put it but there isn't. I think these girly men would represent mtf's better then the majority of mtf's themselves.

In other words: their 'claim to womanhood' doesn't come from the inside....instead of that their deep rooted masculinity comes from their inside.Totally conflicting and confusing to look at  and listen to, not to mention sensing one's masculinity.

  I've noticed this as well when I speak with some mtf's in real life and on sites like this. They don't come across as female, it's like they're lacking that female "essence" that cisgender women have. This is why I don't like to have mtf trans friends in real life because when i'm talking to them it feels like i'm speaking to a man pretending to be female, it's not really about how they look it's just that female essence isn't there at all. I find it rather strange to expect people to treat you like a woman and yet disregard your appearance and act in a masculine way. It's like saying to people "Hey...IM A WOMAN!! *in homer simpson voice*" 

Yes, I did. Before the internet existed. And I was very, very naive and assumed MTF's would be feminine, like I was and am. Turned out I was completely wrong and that I belonged to a minor minority within a minority.

  This reminds me of when I attended my first mtf trans support group. I walked in the room assuming there would be other trans women that looked and behaved like women only to find middle to old age trans women/crossdressers giving me the evil eye. I sat down next to one of the women, she looks at me and says "Listen if you want to pass a woman someday like me then pay attention." if she would have actually passed I would have listened but she did not even pass as an old lady. 

  Dahila here's a little piece of advice, if you don't wanna get smited/reported/watched/banned then don't go against the majority here. I know how you feel, it is sad that people who actually do fit into the primary or "true transsexual" mold are not welcome here and are seen as a threat and labeled elitists.

  Honestly I feel like an outsider here.
 
  I'm starting to understand now why Mahsa the disco shark left Susans place.   

[JenJen2011]

Oh my God Mackenzie, we definitely need a leader like you to represent us all. You would be perfect since you have that female essence.

[MacKenzie]

Oh my God Mackenzie, we definitely need a leader like you to represent us all. You would be perfect since you have that female essence.

Yeah but I don't look as good as you Jen! In case your wondering that was sarcasm. 

[Sarah Louise]

Lets leave out the snide comments folks. 

Final warning.

[Jeneva]

   Dahila here's a little piece of advice, if you don't wanna get smited/reported/watched/banned then don't go against the majority here. I know how you feel, it is sad that people who actually do fit into the primary or "true transsexual" mold are not welcome here and are seen as a threat and labeled elitists.

Help! Help! I'm being repressed!

Wow I just realized that maybe that particular scene in Monty Python's Holy Grail may actually be relevant here since Arthur called him Old Woman.

Are you truly not welcome here because of who you are or rather because of advocating that some animals are more equal than others?

If you say that X is better than Y then you ARE an elitist and aren't just being labeled.

[MacKenzie]

Wow I just realized that maybe that particular scene in Monty Python's Holy Grail may actually be relevant here since Arthur called him Old Woman.

Are you truly not welcome here because of who you are or rather because of advocating that some animals are more equal than others?

If you say that X is better than Y then you ARE an elitist and aren't just being labeled.

Lol Jeneva those are your words not mine. I love how you try and act all self righteous when these topics come up.

Do heterosexual feminine trans women threaten you? Is that why you get all worked up when someone mentions ->-bleeped-<-/cross dreamers? lol

[Jeneva]

Lol Jeneva those are your words not mine. I love how you try and act all self righteous when these topics come up.

Do heterosexual feminine trans women threaten you? Is that why you get all worked up when someone mentions ->-bleeped-<-/cross dreamers? lol

No, actually I'm fine and not threatened by any of this.  I have a great life and wonderful family.  My wife can't wait until I can have full GCS and both of our kids are fully supportive.  My therapist told me the other day that it was sort of funny for her to work with me toward my GCS letter since I was so "normal".  She said that once I came out and broke away from my family so I didn't have anxiety issues that she really didn't feel like she needed to see me if it wasn't for the "rules" saying she had to in order to write my letter.  My job is going well and pays great.  I pass and am accepted as female almost all the time now that I've recovered from FFS.  I'm scheduled to have an orchi in less than a week so I can cut out the T blockers.  It is going to be a few years before I can afford GCS, but we are on track to be TOTALLY debt free in that same time period. 

I'm finally free of my controlling family that stopped me from transitioning 30 years ago.  And ironically even though those family members aren't friendly anymore I've found dozens of people in real life that have accepted me with open arms.  Many of those people I would not have been allowed to associate with before I broke free from my family.

I've felt the love of the Divine as the Goddess welcomed me as her daughter with a hug.  And I know she is clearing my path and making it easier because all of the serendipitous events make that plain to see.  I have learned who I am and fully accepted myself.

I do not "fear" heterosexual feminine trans women, as I've said before I'm actually much more feminine than my wife.  Femininity doesn't scare or threaten me.  Heterosexuality doesn't scare or threaten me.  What does scare me is attempts inside our own community to carve it up into smaller domains.  Perhaps you've heard the phrase "United we stand, divided we fall"?

[kelly_aus]

I don't think it really helps us, as they are males, regardless of how effeminate their manner is.. And all I can see it doing is reinforcing the greater part of societies belief that MTF's are simply effeminate males.. Which we all know we are not, regardless of any allegedly masculine traits we may have..

  This is very true, I wish there were a nicer way to put it but there isn't. I think these girly men would represent mtf's better then the majority of mtf's themselves.


  I've noticed this as well when I speak with some mtf's in real life and on sites like this. They don't come across as female, it's like they're lacking that female "essence" that cisgender women have. This is why I don't like to have mtf trans friends in real life because when i'm talking to them it feels like i'm speaking to a man pretending to be female, it's not really about how they look it's just that female essence isn't there at all. I find it rather strange to expect people to treat you like a woman and yet disregard your appearance and act in a masculine way. It's like saying to people "Hey...IM A WOMAN!! *in homer simpson voice*" 

What is a 'female'? Just because some MTF's do not conform to stereotypes is no reason to malign them..

This reminds me of when I attended my first mtf trans support group. I walked in the room assuming there would be other trans women that looked and behaved like women only to find middle to old age trans women/crossdressers giving me the evil eye. I sat down next to one of the women, she looks at me and says "Listen if you want to pass a woman someday like me then pay attention." if she would have actually passed I would have listened but she did not even pass as an old lady. 

The support group I went to covered the spectrum of passability.. And they were all lovely women, or men, depending on whether they were MTF or FTM..

Dahila here's a little piece of advice, if you don't wanna get smited/reported/watched/banned then don't go against the majority here. I know how you feel, it is sad that people who actually do fit into the primary or "true transsexual" mold are not welcome here and are seen as a threat and labeled elitists.

  Honestly I feel like an outsider here.
 
  I'm starting to understand now why Mahsa the disco shark left Susans place.

I've found you can say what you like here.. You just need to exercise a modicum of tact..

[Stephe]

Some posters say the majority of mtf's were feminine boys, others say the majority were masculine straight men. Who the freak cares!!!

Several large brushes and flame throwers being wielded in this thread..

[michelle]

I was born in 1946.  In growing up being effeminate and being a female automatically made you a second hand citizen who were to be dominated by the males.    Coming out of my shell and accepting that I am really a women in my 50s meant my body has been dominated by male hormones for all of those years.   If chances if life ever make it possible for me to take hormones and have surgery I will always maintain male characteristics, such as my size thirteen feet.   

I will always present as a mixture of male and female characteristics.   When effeminate males become more and more accepted by society and their rights are accepted.    I feel that I will have more and more acceptance as being a women despite my male characteristics.   If my life does not make it possible for me to take hormones and have surgery, I still feel that less and less attention will be paid to the male characteristics I cannot cover up.

I am a woman and not a man pretending to be one.   I have ditched all of my specifically male clothes.   All I have left from those days are sweat shirts and tee shirts which could be worn by either a man or a woman.

I also realize that with some people I will never be a woman because I was born with a y chromosome.  But that is their problem and not mine.

What you see in my picture is how I dress and I don't try and hide the fact that I am a woman.   I don't correct people when they call me sir.   I let it pass.   My drivers licence says male, but my senior bus pass says female.

I realize that for reason of legal identity such as Social Security and legal government papers I have to say male because that is how I am identified by the government.    This does not make me a male.   In the end we establish our own identity.

To the extent that effeminate males acceptance in public and their rights  are protected makes it possible to disappear into the  sea of woman and fewer and fewer people question the fact that I am a woman is fine with me.

Also to the extent that it is ok for declared males to present in a feminine matter in public and this does not lessen their social status to second class citizens will mean that maleness and femaleness are equal in society and being male does not give you automatic control in society.

In the back of my mind even when I fight against it I will always be a 1950s woman in my mind.   I will be satisfied as being a homebody who when it comes a time that I ever go to the senior center I will join all of the other women in our corner of the room and let the men go into there's and be just another old bitty.

[Annah]

i think its rather sad to see trans here compare one another as to who really is a real woman based on certain criteria...meanwhile many people out there in the world would shoot both perspectives down and say "you both are men in dresses for all I am concerned"

Rather than trying to temperature gauge people here with an elitist attitude of what makes a real girl or what doesn't try something totally out of the box: respect one anther's decisions and, at the same time, worry about your own. Because many people will see how ironic it is in the first place for a transsexual to judge another transsexual as to who is the more real woman.

[michelle]

The biggest problem that all of us transgender women face is the attitude of many people we can never be female because we were born with a y chromosome.   Yes I know that some of us have variations in our chromosomes so this is not an issue for all of us.

Many of us transgender woman came out of our male shells well after puberty so eliminating or minimizing our male characteristics is beyond our means.      We will not be able to hid the fact that the male chromosome has shaped our bodies.

Anything that blends female and male physical characteristics makes it more possible for me to be accepted emotionally as a woman in public and casual relationships does not hurt us.    The more effeminate males are accepted, the less that my being a woman will be questioned.    From my picture you see me in public.   Sometimes without malice people call me sir and in the next breath call me ma'am.   

I can't change peoples thinking so I don't try.   I will never be accepted as a woman by those people who say that to be a woman I have to have to be born with two X chromosomes even if someday genetic science allows me to exchange my y chromosome for an X chromosome.    They will still say you have to be BORN WITH 2 X'S.

So what if their are effeminate males for they are only saying that being female is just as good as being male, and maybe even preferable.

[tekla]

That what any other person does could have any impact on your life at all is a delusional thought based on massive ego problems.  Your life is your life, that other people are 'more than' and others 'less than' you are is a condition of life that exists in every freaking aspect of it, and is constantly changing to boot.

No body in the real world is representing any group unless you're Barrak Obama or otherwise elected to do so.  People are out doing what they do - basically doing their best to muddle through and making it up as they go at that - and it's all they can do to keep their own lives together without having to wonder what they could do today to piss other people off and make them look bad in the process.

Certainly not celebrities, media figures, and people you see on TV.  They are not thinking about anything beyond themselves, trust me on that.

[Sephirah]

I really don't understand the point of these kinds of threads, since all they do is highlight, and bring to the fore, the various insecurities that people have. Which kinda defies the point of a support site.

It always reminds me of people climbing a mountain together, and rather than giving each other a helping hand to all reach the summit, they're trying to kick each other off instead so they can be the one to plant a flag and name the route used in the ascent.

For people to question and/or doubt others' sense of self and identity, that only illustrates a burning need to validate and re-affirm one's own, at whatever cost. Nothing more.

Annah is right, it is sad to see. No one here has anything to prove to anyone else. That they've proved it to themselves is enough. Or should be.