Does gender behaviour come naturally?

[Rachael]

didnt i say this?
R

[Caroline]

didnt i say this?
R

Sorry, the idea of us agreeing still scares me 

[Alison]

didnt i say this?
R

Unless I misunderstand?

You said this:

then there are the robotic m2fs with no clue how a female behaves, or thinks, and use male thought patterns in everything, TRUST ME, ive met one, and know of several, its bloomin obvious and scary. Im not one for magic, but people have an essence, a being almost, and you can tell when a person is faking. atleast i can, things they say, how they behave,woman is not woman does.

Couple things that get me --

What do you mean by male thought pattern?  Isn't that just saying the same thing? if you act 'too masculine' you aren't real? 

Noone can determine a 'fake' except the person themselves.  They may appear fake you, but again, that is dismissing someones <b> gender identity </b> which to me, really isn't kosher...  If someone says "I am ____"  no matter what they look like how they act, you should take them as how they want to be taken.  Male, Female, both, mix, neither, or something else all together...   This is exactly what is frustrating me lately. 

[Sophie_C]

Split from topic 'Feminine Deportment Info'.

Does anyone know of any resources (web sites or books etc) I can look at that discuss feminine deportment. I'm keen to ensure my movement and mannerisms are as feminine as possible.

I think femininity and mannerisms are natural to those who are transsexual....

Posted on: October 26, 2007, 08:25:35 AM

Does anyone know of any resources (web sites or books etc) I can look at that discuss feminine deportment. I'm keen to ensure my movement and mannerisms are as feminine as possible.

I think femininity and mannerisms are natural to those who are transsexual....

Just as well its only your opinion.
A constructive response would be appreciated.

I was genuine in thinking that if you are truly TS these things would be more natural. I'm sorry if you thought my comments were offensive. Femininity was my natural instinct from a very early age and my mannerisms were feminine even while presenting as a male when I was younger. For me it was natural and I assumed that was the case for all transsexuals.


Posted on: October 26, 2007, 09:02:26 AM

You should also understand that our mannerisms can also be influenced by environmental circumstances.

I didn't imply anything........this purely was my own experience. Why don't you enphasise what your 'environmental circumstances' were and why they affected your mannerisms?

I only know my experience, and as of like 3rd grade I was being 'corrected' for my posture and physical behavior being too feminine.

I remember it crystal-clear.

Now, people may have different experiences, but my ENTIRE life I've had to 'modify' my behavior, posture, etc - to be more masculine for society's standards, so the premise of this thread makes complete sense to me.

I think the variances you are seeing are just a reflection of the spectrum of gender identity that anyone is born with. 

The girls who may have not experienced things the way I (or other) girls here have are just more 'tomboy.'  It doesn't make them any less TS/TG or inherently female than they are for saying that, just like it wouldn't be for any natal girl.

[Rachael]

didnt i say this?
R

Unless I misunderstand?

You said this:

then there are the robotic m2fs with no clue how a female behaves, or thinks, and use male thought patterns in everything, TRUST ME, ive met one, and know of several, its bloomin obvious and scary. Im not one for magic, but people have an essence, a being almost, and you can tell when a person is faking. atleast i can, things they say, how they behave,woman is not woman does.

Couple things that get me --

What do you mean by male thought pattern?  Isn't that just saying the same thing? if you act 'too masculine' you aren't real? 

Noone can determine a 'fake' except the person themselves.  They may appear fake you, but again, that is dismissing someones <b> gender identity </b> which to me, really isn't kosher...  If someone says "I am ____"  no matter what they look like how they act, you should take them as how they want to be taken.  Male, Female, both, mix, neither, or something else all together...   This is exactly what is frustrating me lately. 

i did say at first, my beef isnt with someones gender id, but there are some who transition THINKING this is thier gender id, and doing it to get out of a crummy life or something else. But anyway, my point was regarding male thought patterns.
One trans individual was visiting me
and i was getting ready to go out, and asked thier opinion of my outfit, they proceeded to get too close, touch, and grope, and comments of 'oh if i was still a man id bed you now' this person also stood to pee with the door open... masculinity or femininity aside, mens and womens brains operate differently, and this is scarily clear, Andra knows who i mean...
R

[Lisbeth]

It's all learned, but it's not all consciously learned.

*Agrees with Lisbeth*

ALL behavior is learned in some fashion, consciously or not.. 

You also can't gender behavior.  Just because a woman is brash, intense, stubborn, doesn't make her any less of a woman,  And if a man is sweet sensitive it doesn't make him less of a man. I know some women that are manlier then men... and vice versa, I have guy friends that are more femme than girls I know...

Behavior. is. not. gendered.

As an example of unconscious learning, when I started wearing women's shoes, I started walking like a girl.  I had to in order to keep the stupid things from coming off my feet.

[Kate]

As an example of unconscious learning, when I started wearing women's shoes, I started walking like a girl.  I had to in order to keep the stupid things from coming off my feet.

Exactly what I mean. Living as a woman encourages certain mannerisms and behaviours. Some are physical, like the shoes and clothing being different and forcing you to move differently. Some are social, like how people interact with you. I mean, it's really hard to act male when a man is calling you "sweetie" and "hon," lol.

Now maybe that only comes naturally to people who were "already female" or whatever, I don't know. Or maybe it can happen to anyone who's receptive to it. I'll never know. I only know about my experience, and my experience has been to trust that I AM growing into a woman, as any girl might, through socialization and just LIVING my life.

~Kate~

[Lisbeth]

As an example of unconscious learning, when I started wearing women's shoes, I started walking like a girl.  I had to in order to keep the stupid things from coming off my feet.

Exactly what I mean. Living as a woman encourages certain mannerisms and behaviours. Some are physical, like the shoes and clothing being different and forcing you to move differently. Some are social, like how people interact with you. I mean, it's really hard to act male when a man is calling you "sweetie" and "hon," lol.

Yet, it is still learned behavior.  I have known some people who had learned the old male ways so thoroughly that it was really hard for them to learn the new ways.

[Keira]

Even if you grow up as a male doesn't mean your socialized as a male.

If you read cosmo, always are aware of female fashion, hairstyle, manerism, makeup not even paying attention to male one, well it will be very easy act in a feminine way once transition started.

That's why I was such a poor male, I had paid no attention to male socialisation cues.

[Rachael]

i didnt read cosmo, or know female fashion, i spent 16 of my 20 years in an all boys school, and when i got to uni, i instantly socialised as female... ><
R

[Nero]

...Weird goings on indeed!   

I thought my posts had disappeared....only to find them re-appearing here.....and I didn't start this thread..

lol. sorry, I thought you brought up a good subject separate from the original one.

Posted on: October 31, 2007, 01:18:24 PM

Hmmm, I was close to my father and we did things together. Close to male and female members of the extended family. Neighborhood friends were all male for my first few years I remember in detail ~4-7 y.o. Mostly male friends in grade school, most of the teachers were women.... I was trained to be a perfect little gentleman, something that would forever make me feel out of step with modern times.

Yet I was often "mistaken" as a girl growing up and carried myself in a femme manner until it was pointed out and I made the changes I had to in order to cover it up. I never got boys but I never really got girls either. I find people of all genders to be strange creatures with quite unusual thinking habits.

I have been asked where I learned to carry myself so well and so much like a woman. I cannot answer. I have been asked to teach others and I cannot.

This does not make me any more or any less of the person that I am, just one of the "lucky" few who had one less thing to worry about during and after transition.

Yep. Your true self will shine through despite all of the teaching and socialization in the world.

Posted on: October 31, 2007, 01:22:05 PM

heres my 2c... but there is an amount of programing, but this in my view, is easily overcome by someone who is genuinely female (lets use m2f in this example as its most debated) behaving femininely, and a female behaving naturally are two different things, and its visible.

Real talk!
'Female' is not a set of traits to learn. It's not even something that can be put into words. You just know it when you see it.
Case in point: My sister in law drives a truck, speaks in monotone, no makeup, never displays emotion - just a tough little lady. And yet she is SO womanly.
SO female. More female than a lot of prissy, made up ladies.
One cannot 'learn' to be female. One just is, or one isn't.

[Keira]

I don't believe in instant socialisation.
Since by definition socialisation comes from contact with society
it has to be learned. So, of course, 2 years in, your better than
at the start.  But, not everybody starts from the same neutral point.
If you've got a heavy male socialisation ingrained in you, it takes awhile
to undo that.

Many TS never really socialized as male in spite of being in
male environments, like the army or boys school.
This would be more likely in younger TS, since they have needed
to apply less socialisation in making their way into the world.

But, I was a failed male. I was actually diagnosed as having no
real defined adult socialised identity. Quite rare. Because I
didn't want at all to be a male and couldn't be female, I was nothing!!
Its hard to go through life not knowing where you stand on anything.

As for the truck driver thing, or chosing an occupation that used to be done by male prior to 1980, times change and what's expected of a women or man changes. So, socialisation changes to adapt. So, the truck driver women can be all womanly (whatever that means)...

[Alison]

Socialization also depends on what culture and society you live in, Women in the US/Canada/UK/other 'western countries' act completely different then women in tribes in Africa etc...

it is -learned-... It doesn't matter if you spent all your life in an all boys school, you had to been exposed to women at some point..

Do you really think that women (or men, or whoever) all over the world "automatically know" the social cues of their culture at birth?

[seldom]

Even if you grow up as a male doesn't mean your socialized as a male.

If you read cosmo, always are aware of female fashion, hairstyle, manerism, makeup not even paying attention to male one, well it will be very easy act in a feminine way once transition started.

That's why I was such a poor male, I had paid no attention to male socialisation cues.

I disliked fashion magazines intensely.  And honestly this opinion can come off as a little too stereotypical and quite a bit offbase.  But with that being said I have been reading bust, bitch, make/shift and Ms. long before I transitioned.  I was also had a focus in womens and gender history in undergrad.

Remember femininity is not about fashion, hairstyle and makeup, and taking or not taking to socialization, because its not always learned, sometimes its just there.  Some people take more to the socialization process than others, some it is so wrong to them it really does not work.  For me the socialization for the most part did not work.  There is some here that never socialized fully as their birth sex, so there really isn't anything to deprogram, expression was in fact...in congruence with their gender identity from the start.  Expression is not always learned, sometimes it just is.

Seriously everybody here needs to read Whipping Girl by Julia Serano. 

[Nero]

Remember femininity is not about fashion, hairstyle and makeup, and taking or not taking to socialization, because its not always learned, sometimes its just there.  Some people take more to the socialization process than others, some it is so wrong to them it really does not work.  For me the socialization for the most part did not work.  There is some here that never socialized fully as their birth sex, so there really isn't anything to deprogram, expression was in fact...in congruence with their gender identity from the start.  Expression is not always learned, sometimes it just is.

Word! And this isn't going to make me popular.... but I think some use the 'birth gender socialization and circumstances' excuse because being their target gender doesn't come naturally to them.

Posted on: October 31, 2007, 06:53:22 PMSo of course they see gender as 'learned'. Some social cues of a given culture are learned, but gender behaviour is not.
If one doesn't experience it for themselves, and have to study it, of course they won't know that for others it is inherent and as natural as breathing.

[Keira]

One I never understand is why when I give example of looking for socialisation cues in women and include the most obvious ones, it just drives some people up the wall, like I had sent women back to the dark age.

You can be a carreer women, love makeup and love fishing, or skydiving, or shooting hoops. But, even there there are differences in how women act. I played on a women's basketball team and its a very different thing than playing on a men's team.

Do I really have to mention every single societal effect that are gender based, to know they exist?

Your right Amy, many TS never really got with the program with male socialisation. Those that transitioned before 30 almost always the case and for those that transitioned later, you've got the total flops as male like me. Needless to be outside the social male order is not a carreer boost as a male...

[Nero]

One I never understand is why when I give example of looking for socialisation cues in women and include the most obvious ones, it just drives some people up the wall, like I had sent women back to the dark age.

You can be a carreer women, love makeup and love fishing, or skydiving, or shooting hoops. But, even there there are differences in how women act. I played on a women's basketball team and its a very different thing than playing on a men's team.

Do I really have to mention every single societal effect that are gender based, to know they exist?

Your right Amy, many TS never really got with the program with male socialisation. Those that transitioned before 30 almost always the case and for those that transitioned later, you've got the total flops as male like me. Needless to be outside the social male order is not a carreer boost as a male...

Yep.

[buttercup]

didnt i say this?
R

Unless I misunderstand?

You said this:

then there are the robotic m2fs with no clue how a female behaves, or thinks, and use male thought patterns in everything, TRUST ME, ive met one, and know of several, its bloomin obvious and scary. Im not one for magic, but people have an essence, a being almost, and you can tell when a person is faking. atleast i can, things they say, how they behave,woman is not woman does.

Couple things that get me --

What do you mean by male thought pattern?  Isn't that just saying the same thing? if you act 'too masculine' you aren't real? 

Noone can determine a 'fake' except the person themselves.  They may appear fake you, but again, that is dismissing someones <b> gender identity </b> which to me, really isn't kosher...  If someone says "I am ____"  no matter what they look like how they act, you should take them as how they want to be taken.  Male, Female, both, mix, neither, or something else all together...   This is exactly what is frustrating me lately. 

i did say at first, my beef isnt with someones gender id, but there are some who transition THINKING this is thier gender id, and doing it to get out of a crummy life or something else. But anyway, my point was regarding male thought patterns.
One trans individual was visiting me
and i was getting ready to go out, and asked thier opinion of my outfit, they proceeded to get too close, touch, and grope, and comments of 'oh if i was still a man id bed you now' this person also stood to pee with the door open... masculinity or femininity aside, mens and womens brains operate differently, and this is scarily clear, Andra knows who i mean...R

Hey Rachael 

You're one cool girl but you do realise bitching ain't cool, no matter who does it.  Sorry, but there seems to be a bit of *nudge, nudge*, *wink, wink* thing going on, am I correct?  I could be wrong, but that's how I read it.

buttercup

[Kate]

What do you mean by male thought pattern?  Isn't that just saying the same thing? if you act 'too masculine' you aren't real? 

Ironic that the ENDA threads are all complaining about how removing the "T" from the bill will allow people to be fired for not living up to someone's expectations for masculinity or femininity.

I think we need ENDA legislation to protect us from "our own" sometimes

~Kate~

[Keira]

Its a complex thing here.
Even if gender is innate, I see more as a guideline, and map for learning.
That explain the vast disparity in behavior and expression even in people brought up just about the same.
Meaning, you absorb information differently, use it differently, than a male, because of this born predisposition.
But, what information you are expose to, still has a big influence since you cannot work from nothing.

Also, there is a couple of thing here.

There is unconscious or environmental directed learning (the only on in very young children) , directed learning (somewhat exposes you to specific information) and self-directed learning (you are the one seeking the information according to inner predisposition and prior learning).

So, if someone dresses you in pink clothes and surrounds you with dolls since you were born, what do you take from this? If someone takes your a girl and your dad puts you on the hockey team at 5, or takes you hunting at 8, or builds robots with you from age 4, what influences does this have? Do you then become a star female hockey player, reading everything you can about bodychecking, or collect guns, read guns and ammo, and become a swat team sharpshooter. Or, maybe go to MIT in engineerig and build a robot called Robbie soon to lost in space...

I think, we like to simplify things. Because it would be simpler if the reason why women and men are different and where does this difference comes from was clear cut.

As we see with gender variants, and androgynes and the huge variance in TS's and women's gender expression, it cannot be that simple, because there is to much variance to be explained by something simple.