ZERO/ SHALLOW DEPTH VAGINOPLASTY (VULVOPLASTY) QUESTION

[Nina]

Nina, I do not have any experience in the area you are asking but have heard from several girls on Susan's that they have at times gone long time between dilations (one poster even mentioned years) and just needed extra time and effort to regain their full depth. Perhaps they may post soon. Your mileage will definitely vary.

Thank you! If I could even go 5 months, that'd be amazing.

[KathyLauren]

I don't really take the "be 100% sure" it made me wait 20 yrs to start HRT. It was perfectionism.

I am thinking about SRS for very long time but I am not sure I want to live with a canal that I must dilate forever and maybe not use that often - while I am lesbian mostly asexual. My fear of pain hold me back for so long... maybe is time for compromising.
Because while I think about SRS, I live with my penis and have T-blocker to drink every day.

I am not saying that I have my mind made. I am considering full depth as well. But I also understand that no one is 100% sure of anything and I accept to live with the fact that I might fail sometime. I hope failures make me understand myself better and improve for next time. 

Hi, Dentrifice.  I, too, am considering the "zero-depth" option.  Like you, I am a mostly asexual lesbian.  I wanted to be sure in my own mind that I would be okay with this option, so I booked a session with my therapist specifically to talk about it.  After talking to her, I ended up reasoning like this:

- I don't want a penis anywhere near me: I have no desire for that kind of penetration.  That will not change.  Ever.
- My current partner is not interested in playing in a vagina, so I have no need there.
- I am not going to ever have a uterus or ovaries, so any notion of "female completeness" is a fiction.  If I can do without those organs, I can do without a vagina.
- In the unlikely event that (a) my wife left me, and (b) I found a new partner and (c) I became sexually active with that partner and (d) that partner wanted to play with my vagina, I'd have to disappoint her.  As a trans woman, I already have a bunch of oddities that would need to be explained to a new partner, so one more isn't going to make a big difference.  ...In that long-shot situation.

So, even though I was not 100% sure that it was the right decision, I am 99.9% sure, and that's good enough.  The cosmetic procedure will eliminate my remaining body dysphoria, and allow me to function in areas that are off-limits with my current anatomy: swimsuits, locker rooms, etc.

[KathyLauren]

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[Linde]

Hi, Dentrifice.  I, too, am considering the "zero-depth" option.  Like you, I am a mostly asexual lesbian.  I wanted to be sure in my own mind that I would be okay with this option, so I booked a session with my therapist specifically to talk about it.  After talking to her, I ended up reasoning like this:

- I don't want a penis anywhere near me: I have no desire for that kind of penetration.  That will not change.  Ever.
- My current partner is not interested in playing in a vagina, so I have no need there.
- I am not going to ever have a uterus or ovaries, so any notion of "female completeness" is a fiction.  If I can do without those organs, I can do without a vagina.
- In the unlikely event that (a) my wife left me, and (b) I found a new partner and (c) I became sexually active with that partner and (d) that partner wanted to play with my vagina, I'd have to disappoint her.  As a trans woman, I already have a bunch of oddities that would need to be explained to a new partner, so one more isn't going to make a big difference.  ...In that long-shot situation.

So, even though I was not 100% sure that it was the right decision, I am 99.9% sure, and that's good enough.  The cosmetic procedure will eliminate my remaining body dysphoria, and allow me to function in areas that are off-limits with my current anatomy: swimsuits, locker rooms, etc.

I consider the zero depth for the same reason you do, and if I ever will have it done, this is the only viable way for me.

I get my orchi next week, and have to see if this is enough for me.

My parts have so atrophied over the last 15 years that I can wear swimsuits already, and once the testes are gone, it might be even easier!

[dentifrice]

I find this discussion very very interesting and important for me, thanks you all.

So, even though I was not 100% sure that it was the right decision, I am 99.9% sure, and that's good enough.  The cosmetic procedure will eliminate my remaining body dysphoria, and allow me to function in areas that are off-limits with my current anatomy: swimsuits, locker rooms, etc.

I fully relate.
-I was considering Vagino for dysphoria, shared space, swimsuits, ... an maybe try out having a vagina and see if it increase my libido as I will be more in match with the version of myself I fantasize. => feeling better, but complications and life long dilatation procedure.
-I was considering to do nothing, because I also realise I would never be CIS nor "complete" and dysphoria is mostly gone. Maybe it is time to embrace myself and learn to be me, proud and unashamed. => have to work on acceptance, but no medical complication and procedure to stick to.

Now that I think about shallow depth, it made the fear of operation lower and I feel like it is a suitable a compromise in my decades-long internal debate about "should I stay or should I go ?".

However, I don't know if I will never want to play with my vagina or if it would make my sexual life more complete. It is unlikely as i dont really need sexual life. And it would be already way better than what it is now... but if the recovery time is long and painful anyway, then maybe it is not that bad to go full depth while I am already on the table. Somehow I also find the fact to be 'incomplete' part of being trans. I don't like my hairs, face, shape,... but it is me and I love myself ^^ I really need to think deep and calm about it 

I did not considered the fact that I might go for a trip around the globe, or for weeks of hiking... living in poor comfort condition for sometime and maybe not having a cavity will help me with no having to care about this part. It will be less functional but also less of a burden.

On the other hand I did not think the recovery time for "only" shallow depth would be almost as long.

Overall i need to talk about all this with my partener and with my psy. Thanks again everyone.

And yes I am not that "new" but i am more than happy to be welcomed again =D

[TonyaW]

Hi, Dentrifice.  I, too, am considering the "zero-depth" option.  Like you, I am a mostly asexual lesbian.  I wanted to be sure in my own mind that I would be okay with this option, so I booked a session with my therapist specifically to talk about it.  After talking to her, I ended up reasoning like this:

- I don't want a penis anywhere near me: I have no desire for that kind of penetration.  That will not change.  Ever.
- My current partner is not interested in playing in a vagina, so I have no need there.
- I am not going to ever have a uterus or ovaries, so any notion of "female completeness" is a fiction.  If I can do without those organs, I can do without a vagina.
- In the unlikely event that (a) my wife left me, and (b) I found a new partner and (c) I became sexually active with that partner and (d) that partner wanted to play with my vagina, I'd have to disappoint her.  As a trans woman, I already have a bunch of oddities that would need to be explained to a new partner, so one more isn't going to make a big difference.  ...In that long-shot situation.

So, even though I was not 100% sure that it was the right decision, I am 99.9% sure, and that's good enough.  The cosmetic procedure will eliminate my remaining body dysphoria, and allow me to function in areas that are off-limits with my current anatomy: swimsuits, locker rooms, etc.

Wow. This is pretty much a summary of what I said at my last therapist appointment when we talked about surgery. 

I've not had a consultation yet but as of now am leaning in this direction. If I had the time, patience and money I'd look into the newer procedures that require less dilation.

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[Linde]

... but if the recovery time is long and painful anyway, then maybe it is not that bad to go full depth while I am already on the table. Somehow I also find the fact to be 'incomplete' part of being trans. I don't like my hairs, face, shape,... but it is me and I love myself ^^ I really need to think deep and calm about it 



On the other hand I did not think the recovery time for "only" shallow depth would be almost as long.

Let me chime into this as a person who made his living with research on how to control and prevent pre and post surgical infections.

The best way to do this is to prevent incissions into normal sterile areas of the body.  The abdominal cavity is such a sterile area.  The nature of a vaginoplasty requires it to be introduced into said cavity, and the steril area has to be jeopardized, and this can lead to a wound infection.  if part of the colon is used, which is a naturally dirty part of our body, and this part is introduced into the sterile are, the chances for a possible wound infection is even larger!

Concerning the minimal depth vulvoplasty, there is hardly any need to open up the abdominal sterile area of the body, and the chances of a possible critical wound infections is less prevalent. 
About the healing of each wound I would say that the exterior parts, the cosmetic side, of both surgeries are pretty similar, and a similar healing can be expected,  The vaginoplasty healing is way more involved, and seems to be  an ongoing process, because the body tries to fill in voids inside the abdominal cavity.  And because of this one has to dilate all the time to prevent the body fro doing this kind of "healing".

My main concern for not doing the vagina part is the higher infection rate and the endless work for keeping the vagina open!

[dentifrice]

It is really interesting.

I was considering Chettawut for the surgery as it is one of the best for vagino, he might be good for vulvoplasty, I guess... But do you know if there are different techniques/styles/methods from surgeron to another ?

Cheers,

[Linde]

It is really interesting.

I was considering Chettawut for the surgery as it is one of the best for vagino, he might be good for vulvoplasty, I guess... But do you know if there are different techniques/styles/methods from surgeron to another ?

Cheers,

I don't know much about urology/cosmetic surgery, but I know that almost every surgeon has their own little tricks and experiences.  I would try to read up as much as I can on outcome (you mind find it here and on reditt), and than make my decission.  Just be aware, surgeons are also humans and can and will make mistakes once in a while.
The elss they have to cut on you, the lesser the chance for major mistakes.

It is your call, because it is your body.  I don't know how old you are, and what your sexual orientation is.  The way it looks like for my case, a vagina is just a waste of a hole in my body!  But who knows, it will be at least another year for me!

[LizK]

During conversation about complications with my surgeon he warned me that one of the possible complications of the zero depth surgery is that the clitoris can become strangulated and die thus there is no ability to orgasm... with a vaginal canal there is a way to reach orgasm by stimulating the vagina (Thereby stimulating the prostate? )and if you read on here ladies do talk about clitorial orgasms as well as vaginal orgasms. This was something I also considered along with all the other stuff

Liz


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[Linde]

During conversation about complications with my surgeon he warned me that one of the possible complications of the zero depth surgery is that the clitoris can become strangulated and die thus there is no ability to orgasm... with a vaginal canal there is a way to reach orgasm by stimulating the vagina (Thereby stimulating the prostate? )and if you read on here ladies do talk about clitorial orgasms as well as vaginal orgasms. This was something I also considered along with all the other stuff

Liz


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I think nerve strangulations is a very rare thing, and it should be possible to rectify it.  There are enough males who do not have any positive feeling upon manipulating the prostate (I dislike it a lot), so again, this has to be taken with a grain of salt.  But if the penile inversion is done, the penile skin can, and will create sensations once all the nerves are working again.  I don't know if these sensations are large enough to achieve an orgasmus.  I think, if this was not possible for an individual prior to the surgery, it would not have improved because of the surgery.

Again, it is everybody's individual call, to decide which kind of surgery they prefer.  For me it is not worth the wile to take the additional risk, and the way longer time to be under anesthesia, for the benefits I think I would gain from a vagina.
There are many omen around here who had the minimal depths only, and who seem to be pretty happy with the outcome.

[PurplePelican]

I think nerve strangulations is a very rare thing, and it should be possible to rectify it.

I'm with the surgeon on this one, especially as I know the surgeon involved. And it's not really fixable without surgical intervention - and the risks that come with it.

There are enough males who do not have any positive feeling upon manipulating the prostate (I dislike it a lot), so again, this has to be taken with a grain of salt.  But if the penile inversion is done, the penile skin can, and will create sensations once all the nerves are working again.  I don't know if these sensations are large enough to achieve an orgasmus.  I think, if this was not possible for an individual prior to the surgery, it would not have improved because of the surgery.

This ignores your largest sex organ - the brain. It also ignores the differences in surgical techniques, some completely detach some sections of skin and they may never re-enervate properly.

Again, it is everybody's individual call, to decide which kind of surgery they prefer.  For me it is not worth the wile to take the additional risk, and the way longer time to be under anesthesia, for the benefits I think I would gain from a vagina.
There are many omen around here who had the minimal depths only, and who seem to be pretty happy with the outcome.

And this is the thing to remember, it's the individuals choice - this is something that some around here need to remember.

[Anne Blake]

and the way longer time to be under anesthesia, for the benefits I think I would gain from a vagina.
There are many omen around here who had the minimal depths only, and who seem to be pretty happy with the outcome.

I am one of those women happy with my cosmetic procedure but I would like to straighten out one point you made. My partial or cosmetic vaginoplasty required approximately 6 hours of surgery. My doctors suggested that a full depth procedure would only have added an additional half hour to forty five minutes of surgery time. While this is a longer time under anesthesia, it is not a significant addition to the total time.

[LizK]

I think nerve strangulations is a very rare thing, and it should be possible to rectify it.  There are enough males who do not have any positive feeling upon manipulating the prostate (I dislike it a lot), so again, this has to be taken with a grain of salt.  But if the penile inversion is done, the penile skin can, and will create sensations once all the nerves are working again.  I don't know if these sensations are large enough to achieve an orgasmus.  I think, if this was not possible for an individual prior to the surgery, it would not have improved because of the surgery.

Again, it is everybody's individual call, to decide which kind of surgery they prefer.  For me it is not worth the wile to take the additional risk, and the way longer time to be under anesthesia, for the benefits I think I would gain from a vagina.
There are many omen around here who had the minimal depths only, and who seem to be pretty happy with the outcome.

Up to about 85% of all those who have GCS report being able to orgasm which leaves about 15% who cannot. My surgeon advised me that there is no way to repair the nerve strangulation as the tissue dies. My understanding is that this is the major cause of these women being unable to orgasm He spoke of being able to reach orgasm through vaginal stimulation and the prostate.

This is a huge and complicated operation. Not everyone ends up sensate. That is simply a fact.

This discussion should not be had without including the possible poor outcomes and the ramifications of these poor outcomes. I am not advocating vaginal cavity over zero depth. It is an extremely personal choice.

Take it with a grain of salt at your own peril.


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[Linde]

I am one of those women happy with my cosmetic procedure but I would like to straighten out one point you made. My partial or cosmetic vaginoplasty required approximately 6 hours of surgery. My doctors suggested that a full depth procedure would only have added an additional half hour to forty five minutes of surgery time. While this is a longer time under anesthesia, it is not a significant addition to the total time.

Reports from surgeons I found on the internet were talking about roughly two more hours of surgery.  But even 30 or 45 minutes may become a heavy burden on an older patient, and I happen to be a rather old person, who made her living on research with surgical stuff!  While today's anesthesia is way better than the one of a few decades ago, there I still a percentage of patients who either do not wake up, or have brain damage when finally woken up!

I want to do everything I can, not to be part of those statistics!

And as you said, one can live pretty comfortable with the cosmetic option!  I for one, do not even care, if another person ever would see my new vulva (no third party has seen my genitals for the last 16 years).  I just want it for me, and being able to see a vulva instead some left over male junk, when stepping out of the shower, is ll what I want (I could not see a vagina anyway!)

[TonyaW]

I am one of those women happy with my cosmetic procedure but I would like to straighten out one point you made. My partial or cosmetic vaginoplasty required approximately 6 hours of surgery. My doctors suggested that a full depth procedure would only have added an additional half hour to forty five minutes of surgery time. While this is a longer time under anesthesia, it is not a significant addition to the total time.

How was the recovery time? I would think shorter and easier than full depth. Still a major surgery though.

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[Anne Blake]

Tonya,

I can't say for certain if my recovery time was shorter or not. After all I only had it done once and only shallow (bad joke). I can say that my recovery tracked the other stories that I have followed. No dilation made it easier. I still had all of the major incisions and work. The shallow means that I did have about an inch of depth thus some of the similar work, just not the length of depth and the fixation of the channel end. The length of surgery time was still in the five plus hour range and the ravages of anesthesia took the same toll. I got out of recovery center a day or two earlier than if I had full depth. The doctors gave me the same constraints on healing and activity limitations. It also took me a couple or few months to get back up to speed. I believe that having the full depth procedure is more difficult  but I have no data or experience to believe that recovery is significantly different. Probably a big case of ymmv. For what it is worth, riding a bike is still a challenge.

Tia Anne

[LizK]

How was the recovery time? I would think shorter and easier than full depth. Still a major surgery though.

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Hi Tonya

I think you may be right about the recovery time And I think the surgery time is about 2 hrs longer. I think from a logical perspective the recovery would have to be a bit longer because there is another process involved. I would also guess that the chances of complications would be higher because of the creation of a cavity.

I was under anaesthetic for approximately 5hrs. So similar as Tia Anne. The dilation regime seems to be the biggest difference in recovery with the added possibility of complications  from the creation of the cavity.  However these days I think most surgeons are very careful and the chance of perforation of the bowel is very low but still a rare possibility.

No cavity v cavity seems on the whole to be about personal preference and means very little in terms of recovery unless of course you have complications. It changes nothing as far as the cosmetic look goes.

I was in the hospital 7 days which is about normal for those who have a cavity.

hope that comparison is helpful

Liz


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[Dorit]

I am now about 10 weeks post op after what my surgeon calls a modified vaginoplasty.   First, this is certainly not cosmetic surgery and I have to admit I am personally offended by the incorrect use of the term.   This is major body changing surgery, even without a full depth vaginal canal.  I have a shallow vagina of about an inch or two that does not require dilation.  I have labia and a clitoris.   I was five and one half hours in surgery.   My recovery has been difficult for me personally, minor complications, but none of the major ones that can come with a full vaginoplasty.  Ten weeks later I still have considerable swelling, pain, discomfort; I still take pain pills to enjoy a day out.   Two different surgeons have pronounce my results as excellent, I am completely satisfied with the appearance, it is awesome what my surgeon did and I am very grateful.  The intensity and duration of my recovery does surprise me, I realize I am an emotional and somewhat hysterical woman, so this is my experience. 

[dentifrice]

I have to agree. "cosmetic" is inappropriate as it is still "gender affirming" and serious surgery. Sorry if I used it somewhere. I do prefer to call it vulvoplasty.

All your feed backs are very welcome. I did think vulvoplasty would need less recovery time. Apparently it is still a lot. So the main differences would be on the complications (during surgery) and dilatation afterward.

I am in good general health and shape, so i think risk are minimal but still I am still tending to shallow for my personal mindset. But the limit is now more blurry ^^

Cheers all,
Really a lot of thanks,