Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Recently I've been reading posts from several girls telling other girls they "totally pass", "definitely pass", "you look all woman", etc and then I look at the pics they're referring to and perhaps something is wrong with my eyes but I just don't see it.

I don't want ya'll to take this the wrong way. I'm not trying to be mean or make any of the girls feel bad, I just don't think it's right that we lie to them. I wonder if these girls are saying it just to be nice? Or maybe my transdar is too strong and I know what to look for? Like some people tell me I pass but I don't see it.

Now, some of these girls are totally pretty but pretty=/=passable. So, maybe they're mixing the two?

I don't know. Maybe someone can enlighten me a bit.

I really think it just depends on the person evaluating their presentation. I personally take people exactly as they are, so someone is likely to get a "pass" from me when they wouldn't from others. Passing is a tricky deal anyway; just like the trans community will have people with all different sorts of critical eye, that will happen with cispeople too. It's opinion as far as I'm concerned.

Well, then say they don't pass.  Don't feel bad about it.  I see this all the time too.

I just posted to the "Do I Pass" page, and while many people said I looked pretty, and even just about passed, I don't think I do.  Someone else stated that I look like a guy in all three pics, and suggested some things to fix this.  Really- I appreciate the honesty.  I want people to say when I don't pass.  I'm glad when someone points out my flaws, even if it hurts.  Thinking you pass != passing.

I think people are just afraid of hurting other peoples' feelings and want to be affirming and nice.  Unfortunately, this can be detrimental, as many can get the wrong idea and not realize they can improve or what they can do about it, especially when they want objective advice.

Seriously, you can say I look like a dude.  Sometimes the truth hurts, but pain is just a natural part of life.

There has always been an epidemic of good-intentioned dishonesty here, and it annoys me too.

I'm ok with generosity and optimism, and people saying that "you'll definitely pass one day, and here are some suggestions on how to get better..." but telling someone they "totally pass right now 100%" when the person really, really doesn't is obviously a lie. It's not helpful, it's the opposite of helpful.

I feel like I encounter this a lot in real life too. It's the reason I don't really feel like posting in the Do I Pass thread... while I'm sure good things may be said, I'd be very worried about the honesty of said opinions, which ultimately makes someone saying I don't pass more upsetting.

It's a good thing I know where I am though. I'm very androgynous... leaning towards feminine I guess. If I tried, I could make a hot guy, however ... in my experience, I also make a hot girl.

Perhaps teaching people to make up their own minds is the remedy.

 lie to them? or eachother? 
I don't think anyone here is lying, we just give eachother credit. But I guess it depends on how you define what a woman looks like. In that case, I wonder if cis women are passing under the trans radar.
I honestly will never tell someone they do not pass because I feel like we are all women, just women who have different types of bodies.
If they need cosmetic help they need to be proactive themselves, we can give them all the tips we want but i don't think 2D pictures really give anyone the ability to tell someone what will truly look good on them.
I think the do i pass thread should be a place where we support eachothers efforts for even taking transition steps not a place to calculate biological features we can't do too much about. But I do have a problem with some trans women on this forum who feel confident enough to speak from any place of authority and clock women on the thread for not looking conventionally attractive as women, like they probably can.
I think instead of focussing on hiding our trans identity from the public by "passing" we should focus on empowerment of trans bodies and normalizing trans bodies.
No, I don't lie to women on the thread when i tell them they look beautiful.
I'll speak from my own experience:  When people tell me I do not pass, i feel ugly and don't want to leave my house, when i'm told I look pretty it gives me the confidence to walk into a hair salon and tell the stylist's I am trans and I need a haircut that will help me feminize my face.

Passing is always relative to the situation

I think its stupid for transgender people to jugde because transmen find it WAY more easy to point out other trans men as well as transwomen.
one person I know who are mtf pass in public but with other trans folks it seams obviouly shes trans.

also the most are only jugded on pictures which I think is pretty stupid. you cant really jugde if someone pass from only a photo, yes if you will use it for the web but not for everyday life.

<but with other trans folks it seams obviouly shes trans.>

depends on the MTF's........better write: 'but with GG's it seems she's obviously TS'

Same thing goes for me: put me in a group of MTF's and I'm the most feminine looking/acting etc.

Put me in a group of bio men and I'm most obviously a woman.

Put me in a  mixed group of people and I don't draw any attention.

Put me in a group of bio women and I'm obviously a TS.

The size of a MTF head, overall bodysizes etc.....they happen to differ from GG's thus making a MTF looking like a MTF when in a group of bio women.

The kind of things you can't see properly on pics but for sure in real life.

And yes: the 'do I pass thread' comments remind me of 'the new clothes of the emperor' too.....

Well, yup, ideally...we should all tell the truth all the time :)

But, in reality, it is more complicated than that... and sometimes, the truth really isn't important.

This is very much so with our community. A lot of us go through extremely sensitive times with respect to how we look... and, even though we don't "pass", a lie now and then can at least help us feel better for a little bit as we keep transitioning and get through things.

Always giving people straight honest answers is a very bad idea. They are already very aware of their flaws and probably beat themselves up constantly over them... so... saying they look pretty or they are doing great or other types of support isn't doing any real harm.

Now, of course, maybe avoid telling them they pass (just so they won't try going full time too soon...which is a huge problem people do)... but, everything besides that is great to say.

If you read those threads, you have those who lie about how people look... and then you have the "honest" ones who start emotionlessly listing all the things wrong with someones face... and it really seems like the "honest" ones are the ones that cause more harm ....

It's a bit of a wobbly subject really and the frame of mind the person has counts for a lot. For instance some people who get comments saying they don't pass will be like "Okay, I don't pass now, but I'll damn put in the effort!"

But then on the other hand I know for me that if I'm having a bad spill of "Oh God I have a huage man face" that people telling me I won't be able to/don't pass will just depress me even more, whereas if I get comments like "Naw gurl u good lookin you just need a bit X and you could do Y" is a lot more helpful as it gives me a bit more confidence to try that little bit more than "No you don't pass, get FFS".

 
   Pictures don't really prove anything, almost anyone here could pass in a picture it just depends on the angle and lighting.


   
   I think the 2 "do i" "could i" pass threads are kind of pointless which is why i've never posted in them. Now the "fabulous" thread is a different story, it's more for showing off then anything else lol.  :D

Quote from: Rukia87xo on December 16, 2011, 05:37:31 PM
   I think the 2 "do i" "could i" pass threads are kind of pointless which is why i've never posted in them. Now the "fabulous" thread is a different story, it's more for showing off then anything else lol.  :D

Naw there's a decent reason, like you might not be long on hormones/trying to present as female so posting in the "Do I Pass?" thread would be silly as you're not even trying to pass.

You tell me if you pass.

It takes a long time to become gender blind. Lots of therapy involved. Girl with a beard? I'm down with that. Dude with boobs? High five! Doesn't matter to me.

I'm soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo happy the Do I Pass threads don't pop back up for me anymore.

Quote from: Torn1990 on December 16, 2011, 03:49:59 PMlie to them? or eachother?

Whoever fits the shoe.

QuoteI honestly will never tell someone they do not pass

Then hopefully you're not posting in the "Do I Pass" thread as some girls actually want honest answers.

QuoteBut I do have a problem with some trans women on this forum who feel confident enough to speak from any place of authority and clock women on the thread

Well, that's the purpose of the "Do I Pass" thread, to see if we are clockable to others, to see if we actually look like cisgendered females and be able to blend in.

QuoteNo, I don't lie to women on the thread when i tell them they look beautiful.

And you shouldn't. But like I said before, beautiful doesn't always equal passable.

QuoteI'll speak from my own experience:  When people tell me I do not pass, i feel ugly and don't want to leave my house, when i'm told I look pretty it gives me the confidence to walk into a hair salon and tell the stylist's I am trans and I need a haircut that will help me feminize my face.

If you think you won't be able to take criticism, then don't post your picture in that thread. The girls that do post, really want to know if they pass or not. Some even asks others to be "brutally honest".

Quote from: Natkat on December 16, 2011, 03:56:21 PM
I think its stupid for transgender people to jugde because transmen find it WAY more easy to point out other trans men as well as transwomen.
one person I know who are mtf pass in public but with other trans folks it seams obviouly shes trans.

For the most part, yes, but there are a few out there who I couldn't tell was trans until they said so.

Quotealso the most are only jugded on pictures which I think is pretty stupid. you cant really jugde if someone pass from only a photo, yes if you will use it for the web but not for everyday life.

True.

Quote from: Rabbit on December 16, 2011, 05:29:58 PMAlways giving people straight honest answers is a very bad idea. They are already very aware of their flaws and probably beat themselves up constantly over them... so... saying they look pretty or they are doing great or other types of support isn't doing any real harm...
...If you read those threads, you have those who lie about how people look... and then you have the "honest" ones who start emotionlessly listing all the things wrong with someones face... and it really seems like the "honest" ones are the ones that cause more harm ....

Some are actually looking for straight honest answers though. However, I don't agree with being offensive, insulting, etc. There are gentle and helpful ways you can say you don't pass without taking it to that level.

Quote from: Rukia87xo on December 16, 2011, 05:37:31 PM
I think the 2 "do i" "could i" pass threads are kind of pointless which is why i've never posted in them. Now the "fabulous" thread is a different story ...

I agree.  I also find the "Could I pass one day" thread useless because just about anyone could pass with sufficient effort [and money].  As for suggestions, I suppose that's a tad bit different, though still pointless overall.  Posting a picture with facial hair, untrimmed/unshaped eyebrows, no make-up, etc. and asking "could I pass one day" makes me speechless; the basics of "what to do" should be obvious, I would think.

Quote from: JenJen2011 on December 16, 2011, 03:17:02 PM
Recently I've been reading posts from several girls telling other girls they "totally pass", "definitely pass", "you look all woman", etc and then I look at the pics they're referring to and perhaps something is wrong with my eyes but I just don't see it.

Yeah, I have noticed this too.  I rarely reply to any posts in those threads, but I do occasionally.  When I do, I make sure I share my honest opinion because I personally would hate to be given false hope (though I'm not really interested in opinions of whether or not I pass; I can already answer that question myself).  But yeah, I agree with you.

This post was about my pictures wasn't it.

*hangs myself*

Quote from: JoeyD on December 16, 2011, 07:35:00 PM
This post was about my pictures wasn't it.

*hangs myself*

HAHA! Noooooooooooo

JOEY YOU'RE IN TROUBLE YOUNG LADY!!!

That's it. I'm going on my date.

JoeyD -

Uh, you definitely pass.
>_<
And I'm a really harsh critic of other trans people, both FTM and MTF.

I'm pretty much assuming you're being facetious though, and in that case, I love your sense of humor.

:]

awww, hope you have fun emma.  ;)

Quote from: JenJen2011 on December 16, 2011, 07:36:14 PM
HAHA! Noooooooooooo

Quote from: JasonRX on December 16, 2011, 07:39:03 PM
JoeyD -

Uh, you definitely pass.
>_<
And I'm a really harsh critic of other trans people, both FTM and MTF.

I'm pretty much assuming you're being facetious though, and in that case, I love your sense of humor.

:]

Aw, mkay good.

Quote from: EmmaM on December 16, 2011, 07:37:41 PM
JOEY YOU'RE IN TROUBLE YOUNG LADY!!!

That's it. I'm going on my date.

LAY OFF MY CASE WOMAN!

 

Quote from: JoeyD on December 16, 2011, 07:46:10 PM


LAY OFF MY CASE WOMAN!

:( okay


Totally gonna score several drinks now. It's cool.

I've gone to a few dressing rooms and have passed as male. I've been to 1 barbershop and passed as male. I've been to the grocery store and Wal*Mart and was read as female. It really does depend on the person and I personally think we're our own worst critics. Trans* folk know what to look for and I feel, pay closer attention to details then cisfolk. I personally don't like the idea of passing and don't try too hard at this point, but I know it's important for some.

If it's pre-transition then we should be honest but if they are already going for it why disillusion them? What good does sit do?

I haven't started hormones so if i post on that thread you can all be honest with me. In six months time? grrrrr be nice  :laugh:

Unless they are asking advice for facial surgery specifically.

Quote from: Amazon D on December 16, 2011, 03:54:23 PM
Passing is always relative to the situation

I agree with this.  Given the place and the way cis people tend to look will affect whether a person can pass with the look they are presenting.  Ciswomen do come in all shapes and sizes, and even men tend to look different in different places, cities, towns, etc.  So for me, the measure of passing is comparing to ciswomen I've known vs looking like a cisman I've known.  It's a matter of perception, and we all have different ones.

I believe anyone can pass, but not all can can pass consistently.  For people starting out, I think maybe it does help to work with the benefit of the doubt, and find some strengths amid the basket of flaws they are working to overcome.

I'm with the be honest side of this. Honesty can hurt of course but in the end if given properly it can help too.

I've only commented on a few people so far and I meant every word. I have a really bad habit of brutal honesty and have learned to avoid commenting if I can't do it in a decent way. So yeah if you see me say something I wholeheartedly mean it. I'm just worried about offending people around here with terminology and stuff. So much I don't know.

Kia Ora,

::) It can be quite hard for a 'trans-person to judge another trans'person's pass rate! It would seem we have our gen-dar on 24/7/365 constantly on the lookout for tail tail[having a blond moment] 'tell tale'  :icon_redface: signs of masculinity/femininity in ones physical appearance and or behaviour... 

::) Just leave it to the cis society, after all they are the ones that count if one feels passing is to be the be all and end all...

::) Besides...What does a man or woman look like ?

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: JenJen2011 on December 16, 2011, 03:17:02 PM
Recently I've been reading posts from several girls telling other girls they "totally pass", "definitely pass", "you look all woman", etc and then I look at the pics they're referring to and perhaps something is wrong with my eyes but I just don't see it.

I don't want ya'll to take this the wrong way. I'm not trying to be mean or make any of the girls feel bad, I just don't think it's right that we lie to them. I wonder if these girls are saying it just to be nice? Or maybe my transdar is too strong and I know what to look for? Like some people tell me I pass but I don't see it.

Now, some of these girls are totally pretty but pretty=/=passable. So, maybe they're mixing the two?

I don't know. Maybe someone can enlighten me a bit.

i brought this back up last august. I agree with you. It's tragic that people want to sound nice but, in reality, giving grave injustices to the person who wants to know if they pass.

This is one of the main reasons why I no longer post in that thread.

don't tell us how crap we are. It's only going to hurt our feelings. What's the point?

i also never say "you pass" anymore unless i see videos of you and you talking in them.

If you want me to know if you pass, then i wanna see you on video and talking. Voice, in my opinion, is the biggest factor in passing.

You can look absolutely beautiful but if you sound like a guy I will be honest and you do not pass nor do you blend in (unless you can go through life without talking).

Quote from: fionabell on December 16, 2011, 11:08:51 PM
don't tell us how crap we are. It's only going to hurt our feelings. What's the point?

if someone post in a "do I pass?" i would assume they want the truth and not answers of spoon fed sugar because when you walk out in public, society isn't gonna say "aww well, you're new at this and you have a good heart so you pass."  In public you either appear as a female or you don't.

To give girls constant feedback "oh you pass" because you don't want to hurt their feelings, then you are putting out the red carpet of extreme hurt feelings when they walk out in public where they are convinced they pass but then that security falls to pieces because those in real life are saying otherwise.

Quote from: Annah on December 16, 2011, 11:13:12 PM
if someone post in a "do I pass?" i would assume they want the truth and not answers of spoon fed sugar because when you walk out in public, society isn't gonna say "aww well, you're new at this and you have a good heart so you pass."  In public you either appear as a female or you don't.

To give girls constant feedback "oh you pass" because you don't want to hurt their feelings, then you are putting out the red carpet of extreme hurt feelings when they walk out in public where they are convinced they pass but then that security falls to pieces because those in real life are saying otherwise.

They are going to walk out in public anyway so they might as well feel good about themselves

Quote from: fionabell on December 16, 2011, 11:42:10 PM
They are going to walk out in public anyway so they might as well feel good about themselves

It is best for someone to walk out in public with a reality of truth than a false statement to make one "feel good." Because the moment the truth comes out, that "feel good feeling" they got from an internet forum because people were nice will come crashing down hard and fast. Being stared and laughed at creates emotions far more greater than a "lubby dubby" feeling of "courtesy truths" on the internet.

I thank my trans peers for telling me the truth from the very beginning of how I look. I used their truthful advice to improve myself and I give credit to their honesty and suggestions to how i look today.

If I was spoon fed false truths in order to make me feel good, I wouldn't be nowhere as close to how I look now. And that is the truth.

  This threads title made me lol... :laugh:

The very nature of being trans is delusion. You're essentially shorting our your logic to live a lifestyle that is against your very birth nature. I've seen a certain girl on youtube who says, "No one can tell I am trans". I think it's hilarious, because she doesn't look that different from me in the face... But she's 5 inches taller, has huge hands, and used to have a very masculine body. Her and I are spawned from the "drag queen" sect of transsexuals. We know how to make something have the illusion of "female". But opinions... If we ask anyone but our cheerleaders and men who are horny for us(and there's a lot of them)...they'd call us "pretty ->-bleeped-<-s in drag". But hey, at least I am petite. Giving me a huge advantage to most trans.

If you want an honest opinion, ask someone outside the trans community. Normal cispeople have an eye for this stuff like you wouldn't believe. Especially gay/straight/bi men.

I just ask my friend/dragmom who is obsessed with trannies and constantly critiques their faces/bodies/etc. Him and I basically concluded being trans is essentially a "full time draq queen" lifestyle...thus makeup is more important and some can't even be saved by ffs. I mean due to bone structure and various other features, no transsexual is gonna be "fool proof". They will always some male characteristics the public will be able to point out and say, "Thats a man". It's a fact of life.

I'll trust the opinion of someone outside of the community rather than in it. I've shown several of my male friends(who don't know i am a ts) what they think of a certain transgirl and they often will compare to a GG. Men are the ones who pay my salary and buy me dinner. Because I admit, I am very hypercritical over passing. I think sometimes I look too deep into it, when really I don't care about other peoples faces or anything.

I'm a "part time" gender illusionist. Part of the reason that I preach makeup, proper hair, and clothes being so important is that being this 24/7 for most of you is essentially a full time "illusion". Therefore, getting people to think you're female with proper feminine markers is that a lot of people don't think past the nose on their face and you don't want them reacting awkward.

As for myself, I will say that I need minor ffs(Nose, dental work, and chin/jaw). I do have a "mannish" facial structure, but so several of the porn stars and gender illusionists I've met. But I've accepted it, which is one of the hardest things to do when being trans. There are very few girls who will ever pass as GG... Unless you start hormones before puberty and even then, genetics and prettiness play in fact. Therefore, you better foster an illusion because that will be more important overall than any amount of girl clothes and hormones.

Quote from: Nurse With Wound on December 16, 2011, 05:39:58 PM
Naw there's a decent reason, like you might not be long on hormones/trying to present as female so posting in the "Do I Pass?" thread would be silly as you're not even trying to pass.

I was out in public today. I actually saw transwomen and I have very good radar. mainly because everytime I've seen one. The radar beeps in my head. Never the good kind either of... OMFG DAHLING YOU LOOK FABULOUS.

One girl passed for about 30 seconds, before I looked closer and straight up asked her, "Are you trans?" then went on a spiel about how I was a TG/DQ performer. She wasn't too happy... the other was her friend in some bizzare bicycle, the voice clocked her and I looked a bit closer and saw she was in fact, a TS. Both of them had horrid style choices...with andro clothes, unnaturally dyed hair and beanies.

Then I was using the bathroom at the San Jose hilton and I saw this Japanese BOY with long hair. The bushy eyebrows, the stubble and andro clothes, I stared at her for a minute and I wanted her to know I had clocked her. Then I went and told my b/f, "OMFG, there was a MAN in the bathroom". She wasn't even trying and looked horrible.

*blech*

Quote from: EmmaM on December 16, 2011, 06:54:24 PM
You tell me if you pass.

It takes a long time to become gender blind

I'd rather not. That group of thugs over there didn't look like friendly girls when I talked to them. I thought they were studs with short hair and beards.

I am glad i am skilled enough to spot gender differences. Probably has saved me a lot of time and money.

But I'm part pretensious gay man hun...I've been critiquing people since I was born!!!

What's even worse than the natural-hormones only 'you pass fine, all woman' etc is post FFS pics showing the final results after a year or so.

Comments as 'excellent results' 'you must be thrilled', '100% passabele' while I sometimes see stratospherical lifted eyebrows, hideous cheekimplants making a face 'look off', sometimes piggynoses, a strange overstuffed pillow face,  a (fairly completey) surgical altered face etc.

Sometimes one of these 'features' sometimes more, sometimes all of 'em....

Sometimes the MTF in question realises that herself and is looking for revision, sometimes it works as a 'magical token'  because she had FFS anyway with a 'famous, good doctor'  talking about the new clothes of the emperor....(and this strange, almost godlike fixation on 'the good dr'.....she paid a large amount of money after all...)

Damage done....terrible, much more worse than telling 'white lies' to a unaltered unpassable MTF. That is: if someone like a post FFS patient like that is gona give 'advice' based on her own 'excellent results'...

All this made me think not twice but several times over  what my FFS needs exactly were and how to realise them *WITHOUT* looking surgically altered.

I had my FFS late 2004 with dr Chettawut who firstly mentioned: 'your nose is ok. No need to change it, it's gonna look unnatural'.
A vey clear and good sign to proceed with dr C.

(both dr Suporn and dr Noorman van der Dussen recommended me a nose job during a 2002 and 2003 real life consultation....without me asking any advice about my nose that is.
BUT my natural nose is short, rounded with a slightly upturned tip and a low, scooped nosebridge...I realised all of a sudden that 'the good' FFS surgeons tend to tell you what they think what a MTF likes to hear.

Plus they want to earn money with performing unnecessary procedures of course. Good reason to turn both down. My nose  would have ended up mutilated )

Then dr C gave me the natural results I requested, after showing him post FFS pics telling  him what I most certainly NOT wanted.
I am pleased with the results and very, very happy I managed to listen to my gut instincts considering FFS surgeons and their 'ethics'.
And *not* taking any advice of post FFS MTF's with 'excellent results')

Thing is.....bio women who had had (too much) plastic surgery often look like MTF's.
Same thing goes a 1000 times over for a 'over FFS'd' MTF having had too much or the wrong (tasteless) procedures.

Often 'excellent results', '100% passable' , '100% GG looking on the internet only.

IRL kind of freaky looking, often attracting (negative) attention which they 'explain' as 'of course people look at me, I'm drop dead gorgeous now'...

I've seen it.

While waiting on line at the cosmetics store, I saw a boy, about 7, and his mother. He first whispered and then asked loud.

Is that a boy or a girl?

The mother answered... BOY.

So that means I don't pass yet.

As for my night last night, I'm about 75/25 in favor of not passing.

2 people used masculine pronouns around me.

The 4th person actually said girl... :)

Quote from: Lily on December 16, 2011, 03:29:57 PM
There has always been an epidemic of good-intentioned dishonesty here, and it annoys me too.

I'm ok with generosity and optimism, and people saying that "you'll definitely pass one day, and here are some suggestions on how to get better..." but telling someone they "totally pass right now 100%" when the person really, really doesn't is obviously a lie. It's not helpful, it's the opposite of helpful.

Ditto. Exactly my thoughts on the issue. My feeling is that the point of such photo threads is to give people who ask for it honest feedback. Maybe there should be a thread where people can just post their pictures where commentary is not demanded but if it's the "Will I pass someday?" thread and someone clearly looks male, telling them that they already look like a girl is just moronic.

Dammit, I knew it!!!


*runs away crying*

[quote author=Mahsa the disco shark . Giving me a huge advantage to most trans.
I just ask my friend/dragmom who is obsessed with trannies and constantly critiques their faces/bodies/etc. Him and I basically concluded being trans is essentially a "full time draq queen" lifestyle...thus makeup is more important and some can't even be saved by ffs. I mean due to bone structure and various other features, no transsexual is gonna be "fool proof". They will always some male characteristics the public will be able to point out and say, "Thats a man". It's a fact of life.
[/quote]

Its also a fact of life that you contradict yourself almost every time you post something.   

'Saved' from what?  Hypocrites like you and your friend?

a fulltime drag queen would get read by everyone - many TS pass so well that they just pass you by on the street and you never notice them.

Quote from: lilacwoman on December 17, 2011, 09:10:10 AM


Its also a fact of life that you contradict yourself almost every time you post something.   

'Saved' from what?  Hypocrites like you and your limp wristed ****** friend?

a fulltime drag queen would get read by everyone - many TS pass so well that they just pass you by on the street and you never notice them.

Ehm,  a loooooong time ago I noticed too that gay DQ's are very often much more feminine looking and presenting themselves much more tasteful than most MTF's who happen to be former straight men, often under a bad wig and dressed horribly.
Sometimes they seem to have forgotten about their 'femaleness' and almost walk like John Wayne under a wig and  in drag, so to speak.
And if they all of a sudden remember 'their femaleness' they play 'women' in the worst way imaginable.
I've seen this very often.

Or they are sometimes even downright masculine in their presentation.

Yet they claim to be 'no less of a woman than a born woman'.

It's a funny, yet fascinating phenomenon.

Quote from: JenJen2011 on December 16, 2011, 03:17:02 PM
Recently I've been reading posts from several girls telling other girls they "totally pass", "definitely pass", "you look all woman", etc and then I look at the pics they're referring to and perhaps something is wrong with my eyes but I just don't see it.

I don't want ya'll to take this the wrong way. I'm not trying to be mean or make any of the girls feel bad, I just don't think it's right that we lie to them. I wonder if these girls are saying it just to be nice? Or maybe my transdar is too strong and I know what to look for? Like some people tell me I pass but I don't see it.

Now, some of these girls are totally pretty but pretty=/=passable. So, maybe they're mixing the two?

I don't know. Maybe someone can enlighten me a bit.

I totaly agree.
And you know, I actually find that so common strategy quite rude aswell, as the people posting the pics generally asks for honest opinions and to be "blunt", and yet they get an answer that, in my opinion, is ridiculing and almost belittles them and treats them as little children; You know, when a 7-year old have put on some huge dress and smeared lipstick all over half the face and the grown ups goes; "Qoh how beaituful you are!", instead of just honestly helping the child, which it would definitely appriciate the more.


I mean, if someone that looks totally and litterally like a guy, asks for honest opinions on it and wants advice, and gets a "Oh you look 100% female", then Aargh!

No, it's not too sensitive stuff, it is important stuff and if a person wants honest opinions on their looks and what to do to make the best of it, then darn it, give them that help they ask for, for they will need it if they, for instance, wants to be Stealth.


Please note: This ofcourse only applies when honest feedback is asked for- Telling someone that She looks like a guy or that a T-guy looks like a girl when not requested, it is nothing else than rude and is unforgivable.
Again: The honest feedback should only be stated when requested.

Quote from: Annah on December 16, 2011, 11:10:06 PM
i also never say "you pass" anymore unless i see videos of you and you talking in them.

If you want me to know if you pass, then i wanna see you on video and talking. Voice, in my opinion, is the biggest factor in passing.

You can look absolutely beautiful but if you sound like a guy I will be honest and you do not pass nor do you blend in (unless you can go through life without talking).

Does this apply to me? lol. I am deaf and use ASL and don't speak, heh.

so if you see someone with a chunky body wearing shapeless sweatshirt, jeans and trainers walking with a swagger and a face that is rough skinned and hairy and there is no gendered signs such as jewellery, handbag or heels and lots of people stare at it you assume its a bloke in drag when chances are it is either a bull dyke or jobless trash mother?

go through life looking for nonpassing TS and you'll see many TGs.

if you do see these nonpassers forget to do female then it just proves the theory that a true TS will have a genuine inner femaleness that controls everything regardless of what age they transition.
TGs lack this and don't like to know so.

Taking total passability as proof of genuine TSness then only the kids who transition at 5/6/7 are real TS and everyone else is just a TG in need of therapy to act like the male or female they were assigned as at birth and there needs to be laws to keep all these goddam perverts out of the changing rooms of Macy's and for Pete's sake shut all those eastern women's colleges to eradicate lezzies.    :D :D

I would still say pass to those that don't pass to me or most people here but that I think will pass in front of pretty much everyone else.

I don't think that's being dishonest; I think I'm only giving an adjusted opinion that is practical. People generally don't see the tell-tale signs so easily as we do. In fact, those tell-tale signs will make us sometimes think someone is trans when they aren't!

I constantly post pics in the "do I pass thread" looking fro honest advice.
being out in the real world quite often and on other websites I know that I sadly dont pass.

yet I've only been told I pass really well on here. so I get this is well

what makes me curious is if it bothers some of you and you feel like you should always give real advice why dont you chime in with this real advice?

not being accusing, maybe you do. I just never get it it seems.

Quote from: Eve of Chaos on December 17, 2011, 02:25:23 PM
I constantly post pics in the "do I pass thread" looking fro honest advice.
being out in the real world quite often and on other websites I know that I sadly dont pass.

Like someone pointed out earlier, passability in a still picture is quite different from passability when you're actually meeting someone... your demeanour, voice, confidence and so on all affect it greatly. (A not-very-passing voice can already kill off most of the passability...) I don't think it necessarily means people here are being dishonest...

Quote from: Eve of Chaos on December 17, 2011, 02:25:23 PM
I constantly post pics in the "do I pass thread" looking fro honest advice.
being out in the real world quite often and on other websites I know that I sadly dont pass.

Really? You've said that you pass well in the real world. Btw, you've just began...things are notoriously difficult and awkward in the beginning.

As for other websites, people are d-bags on the net. Besides fb, my pic isn't out there as I am not part of other forums. Just too busy to worry about the opinion of people on the net. There's an actual world out there to live in.

I love the "redirects" this topic seems to be getting in regards to honesty from one trans person to another.

"Trans people clock extensively."
"Trans people are always looking."
"We have to support each other so I'm not going to be honest."

Let's keep in mind that there are not a chosen few who are the "judges" of passing and well, darn it, we're stuck with their opinions.  The people who post their pictures on these threads are asking other trans people for their honest opinion.  If they wanted the opinion of cis-people, I'm sure they'd ask them.  I find it completely amusing reading the many responses as to why honesty within the trans community cannot be valid in terms of what "real" reaction they will received from the general public.

Here's how I feel.  If you don't want to be honest, fine.  But if it were me asking for opinions and every single response I read was, "omg you pass", I'd be a bit skeptical.  So if honesty is forbidden, I'd recommend adding a disclaimer to each response saying "just trying to be nice!"  We are all grown ups, so if someone says they want blunt honesty, I'm pretty sure they want blunt honesty; if they get defensive over certain comments, oh well, that is their fault for asking for honesty.

As for the discussion of being unable to comment whether someone passes or not based off a photograph alone; no, it cannot be stated as a certainty that in any and all situations the person will pass.  But, if I comment on a photo, I make sure to include the words "judging by this photo" before I share my opinion.  This way, hopefully, it is implied that perhaps in other situations, photographs, videos, etc., my opinion does not necessarily apply.  Furthermore, I don't know as I didn't care to look, but if the people who are saying they'll never be honest are the same ones saying you can't judge by a photo, I find that a bit redundant; it would seem to me it could be audio, video, a thousand pictures from all different angles and lighting or even a real-life meet and greet, and the truth would still never be spoken.

Anyway, that's my rant.

Quote from: ~~♥BeeBeeLyss♥~~ on December 17, 2011, 08:06:48 AM
While waiting on line at the cosmetics store, I saw a boy, about 7, and his mother. He first whispered and then asked loud.

Is that a boy or a girl?

The mother answered... BOY.

So that means I don't pass yet.

As for my night last night, I'm about 75/25 in favor of not passing.

2 people used masculine pronouns around me.

The 4th person actually said girl... :)

The Mom brought her son to the cosmetic store? He might be a future makeup artist, as he has an eye for the gender aesthetics. I did that at a young age, constantly with my Aunt and Mom.

I stopped visiting that thread for that reason. Specifically I commented on one other persons picture mentioning their hairline was rather severe and counted against them they then got aggy at me because they couldn't do anything about it and made various comments back.

Generally you have some idea if you go outside as to how pepole refer to you and treat you. Of course you can never know for certain because some pepole do genuinely use unusual pronouns or are just polite.

Quote from: lilacwoman on December 17, 2011, 12:20:56 PM
TGs lack this and don't like to know so.

Really? No one would ever mistake the women I work with for anything but female. Being overdone and girly makes people register "female" instead of male.

I posted photos of DQs on this site and people were like, "They could be cis"...yeah, primming yourself and putting you're all into something is better than half assing it.

Whether trans people want to acknowledge it or not. It is DRAG 24/7. No matter the amount of surgery, hormones, or makeup... Your final results depend on how good of a "boy in drag" you make. Hormones, ffs, etc are just the results of applying the "DRAG" 24/7. However, I see ts women as "women". Even though it's been hard for me to call that person "ma'm"... But to even think a majority of ts women are on the same level as GG's is laughable. If you only have one face, you better make it fabulous. But most ts women don't even do that...Like the girls I saw yesterday, I made it sure they knew they weren't as fab as me.

Furthermore, cispeople aren't stupid. I can spot even the best transsexuals because something if always "off". Gay men are the most conditioned, cuz we see everything from every angle. Most of them do drag, most of them know ts's and hun, that looks like BAD DRAG. Yes, gay men will straight up tell a TS they look like crap.

TS women have to work a million times harder to "pass" as ciswomen. You don't have the option of NOT wearing makeup(SUBTLE makeup makes a huge difference) because you weren't technically born "female" bodywise. Maybe in the mind, but no one can see what is going on in your mind. Therefore, you have to present and impress. Because no effort will always look bad.

I'm sure the OP meant this question about MTF's!! I don't understand why you have to make reference to Dairy Drama  Drag Queens all the time. Its a complete different situation! Do they live like they present 24/7/365.

I'm sure you would of thought the woman at the DMV that helped me was trans. She wasn't but she was about 6'2 220 and although not bad looking not pretty.

The difference between a trans and an GG is a GG can look fairly manly, masculine whatever and they still have something that spews female. A trans could pass 100% of the time but if there's any uncertainty about them someone could then start picking out manly features.

Quote from: Just Shelly on December 17, 2011, 03:13:20 PM
I'm sure the OP meant this question about MTF's!! I don't understand why you have to make reference to Dairy Drama  Drag Queens all the time. Its a complete different situation! Do they live like they present 24/7/365.

Some practically do.

Okay, DRAG= DRESSED AS GIRL. You presented as once as male, and are now female 24/7.... You're no different than some of them. It isn't all about heavy makeup or looking like DIVINE. Many of the dq's calmed down either look like MIDs or pretty girls.

But I heard you're suggestions and I'll start referencing cosplayers or furries LOL. DQs do it right... They go from looking like gay men to females better than most of the people here do.

Quote from: apple pie on December 17, 2011, 02:30:36 PM
Like someone pointed out earlier, passability in a still picture is quite different from passability when you're actually meeting someone... your demeanour, voice, confidence and so on all affect it greatly. (A not-very-passing voice can already kill off most of the passability...) I don't think it necessarily means people here are being dishonest...

my voice may not be perfect, but I know it hasnt outted me. I can get away with it on online videogames and most people dont question it.
not worried about my demeanor either. ive always been girly and have been mistaken for a girl form behind many times before transition. so I tihnk I carry myself well

My problems are all in the face and shoulders I think.

but anyway lol. I know most people can tell. if im introduced as female I think they can accept it. because they have someone elses word of my gender. but without that I think everyone knows and is just polite about it.

the problem is I cant get into anyones head. so all i can do is make inferences about my passing.

that and I dont blame anyone for not being able to be honest on here. its hard to tell if someone really passes to you or not when you already know they are trans.

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on December 17, 2011, 03:18:27 PM
Some practically do.

Okay, DRAG= DRESSED AS GIRL. You presented as once as male, and are now female 24/7.... You're no different than some of them. It isn't all about heavy makeup or looking like DIVINE. Many of the dq's calmed down either look like MIDs or pretty girls.

But I heard you're suggestions and I'll start referencing cosplayers or furries LOL. DQs do it right... They go from looking like gay men to females better than most of the people here do.

big difference
drag=dressing as the opposite gender
if someone has identified as female all their life then when they previously presented as male that would be them in drag.
its never about your physical body. and thats whats really hard to grasp. anything transition is mostly cosmetic its true. but its to ease the pain your body not lining up with who you are.

you seem to think in black and whites. that if you were born with a penis you are male and always will be no matter what.
others see a broader spectrum.
thats all there is to it.

Quote from: Eve of Chaos on December 17, 2011, 04:51:19 PM
big difference
drag=dressing as the opposite gender
if someone has identified as female all their life then when they previously presented as male that would be them in drag.
its never about your physical body. and thats whats really hard to grasp. anything transition is mostly cosmetic its true. but its to ease the pain your body not lining up with who you are.

you seem to think in black and whites. that if you were born with a penis you are male and always will be no matter what.
others see a broader spectrum.
thats all there is to it.

I was talking about appearance wise.

Quote from: MsDazzler on December 17, 2011, 10:19:14 AM
Does this apply to me? lol. I am deaf and use ASL and don't speak, heh.

then you're fine :P

my last girlfriend was deaf, but boy could she talk. That's all she did was talk, talk, talk.

Labels, labels, labels.

Wear what you want, appear how you want.  I call it diversity, personal choice, whatever makes you happy, etc.  Point being, unlabeled.  Why?  We are not robots, diversity is permitted without an instruction manual labeling why.

Trans-women = men in drag 24/7 may be an opinion, but certainly not a fact.  I personally find this comment senseless, and yes, I know this was pertaining to appearance only.  Do I take offense to this?  I would say yes, but the more I think about it, it's obviously only a statement of self-reflection with an attempt to project it elsewhere; happens all the time.  Therefore, due to my lack of overall care to rebuttal and knowing opinion typically does not change, I won't get into why I feel it's a senseless comment.  I'll just say I certainly do not identify as "a man in drag 24/7".

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on December 17, 2011, 02:54:19 PM
Whether trans people want to acknowledge it or not. It is DRAG 24/7. No matter the amount of surgery, hormones, or makeup... Your final results depend on how good of a "boy in drag" you make. Hormones, ffs, etc are just the results of applying the "DRAG" 24/7.

According to webster's dictionary, drag is "Of, relating to, or being a person wearing clothing characteristic of the opposite sex."

Since my opposite sex is male according to my own convictions and philosophies and according to the State of Pennsylvania and the consensus of the United States through the declaration of my Birth Certificate, this would rule me out being "drag." If I were to wear a suit and tie, I would be in drag. If I wore a skirt I would not be in drag. Not every trans person can be correctly associated to drag....especially in today's society when the word "drag" is often associated to a cross dresser or a drag queen/king performer.

QuoteHowever, I see ts women as "women". Even though it's been hard for me to call that person "ma'm"... But to even think a majority of ts women are on the same level as GG's is laughable. If you only have one face, you better make it fabulous. But most ts women don't even do that...Like the girls I saw yesterday, I made it sure they knew they weren't as fab as me.

1. I am on the same level of Genetic women. I have every right they have. So, it is not laughable.
2. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. For me, a beautiful woman isn't evaluated by how much makeup she has on, the way she applied it, or the brand name of the makeup. For me, beauty is a combination of many things that is unique to each person.
3. The last thing I would ever do is laugh at someone and say they aren't as fab as me. When I was first chair first violinist, I was quite an ass with my pride in high school. I would say just what you were saying "You aren't as good as me." Reality hit me in the face when I went to a National Competition and got blown out of the water. Remember, there are always someone better than you so it's best not to "rub it in" to those you feel is inferior because there will always be someone else who will do the same to you.

QuoteFurthermore, cispeople aren't stupid. I can spot even the best transsexuals because something if always "off".

Your logic isn't sound here. You say you can spot a trans because something is off. Therefore, you only notice the trans people who have a characteristic that could be clocked. There are other trans who blend in perfectly and to assume you can spot every single one of them out is a stretch. I'm sorry, but there are transgirls you will walk right up to you and talk to you and you would not know.

To assume you can clock every trans out there who is "stealth" is a bit presumptuous.

QuoteTS women have to work a million times harder to "pass" as ciswomen. You don't have the option of NOT wearing makeup(SUBTLE makeup makes a huge difference) because you weren't technically born "female" bodywise. Maybe in the mind, but no one can see what is going on in your mind. Therefore, you have to present and impress. Because no effort will always look bad.

I have to disagree with this too. I go without makeup all the time and I haven't been clocked. I think being immersed in an Amish family without makeup is a good indicator that I still "pass." Because, I am sure they would have rained down fires of hell if they discovered a "guy" in an Amish dress living with them.

And if I do wear makeup I spend the same amount of time as every other average woman. Foundation, eyeshadow. Boom done. Fifteen minutes.

Your convictions in this matter is from your own experiences. However, these experiences are not universal just as mine are not.

Although I have encountered MANY TS Women that couldn't pass on a dark night and were very obviously trans, and as much as I want to approach one of these ladies and very bluntly tell them "That's a wig, B*TCH!", I just can't bring myself to do something like that. SO! I usually just follow by that old saying, "If you have nothing nice to say, then don't say it at all.". And I do just that. I don't go out of my way to compliment someone either unless I absolutely think they're jaw-droppingly beautiful and pass without question. I give credit where it is due. And don't even get me started on those girls who fish for compliments! No, no, no M'AM!

Quote from: Mariposa on December 17, 2011, 09:42:39 PM
Although I have encountered MANY TS Women that couldn't pass on a dark night and were very obviously trans, and as much as I want to approach one of these ladies and very bluntly tell them "That's a wig, B*TCH!", I just can't bring myself to do something like that. SO! I usually just follow by that old saying, "If you have nothing nice to say, then don't say it at all.". And I do just that. I don't go out of my way to compliment someone either unless I absolutely think they're jaw-droppingly beautiful and pass without question. I give credit where it is due. And don't even get me started on those girls who fish for compliments! No, no, no M'AM!

+1

I've decided not to comment anymore on a lot of the threads. Most of them argue with me anyways... So much for honesty.

Quote from: Annah on December 17, 2011, 07:26:50 PM


Your logic isn't sound here. You say you can spot a trans because something is off. Therefore, you only notice the trans people who have a characteristic that could be clocked. There are other trans who blend in perfectly and to assume you can spot every single one of them out is a stretch. I'm sorry, but there are transgirls you will walk right up to you and talk to you and you would not know.

I have an eye for it. Like this girl who works at MAC Bloomingdales, she looks 100% female...But I know. It's like a feeling I get.

But I comment them if they look really good. I am not a bitch in public. Just on message forums.

Quote from: Mariposa on December 17, 2011, 09:42:39 PM
Although I have encountered MANY TS Women that couldn't pass on a dark night and were very obviously trans, and as much as I want to approach one of these ladies and very bluntly tell them "That's a wig, B*TCH!", I just can't bring myself to do something like that. SO! I usually just follow by that old saying, "If you have nothing nice to say, then don't say it at all.". And I do just that. I don't go out of my way to compliment someone either unless I absolutely think they're jaw-droppingly beautiful and pass without question. I give credit where it is due. And don't even get me started on those girls who fish for compliments! No, no, no M'AM!

Maybe you could have followed it when you wrote this post ;)

Honestly, I don't think you can tell who really passes and who doesn't just from a photo.  Like the day I went to see my Endo, I was presenting as myself. And I was seen as female all day. And i did things like Shopping, ate out and got my bangs trimmed. My wife says an Ftm actually asked HER how long she had been on HRT because she looked very passable. She was furious. So I'm giving up on posting photos and asking "Am I passable?" because I guess I accidentally found out in the real world. lol

Quote from: Keaira on December 18, 2011, 02:35:14 AM
Honestly, I don't think you can tell who really passes and who doesn't just from a photo.  Like the day I went to see my Endo, I was presenting as myself. And I was seen as female all day. And i did things like Shopping, ate out and got my bangs trimmed. My wife says an Ftm actually asked HER how long she had been on HRT because she looked very passable. She was furious. So I'm giving up on posting photos and asking "Am I passable?" because I guess I accidentally found out in the real world. lol

Most people see me as a girl when I try to cause trouble in the real world. No one ever says, "That boy needs to stop looking for people to fight"

Quote from: JenJen2011 on December 16, 2011, 03:17:02 PM
Recently I've been reading posts from several girls telling other girls they "totally pass", "definitely pass", "you look all woman", etc and then I look at the pics they're referring to and perhaps something is wrong with my eyes but I just don't see it.

I don't want ya'll to take this the wrong way. I'm not trying to be mean or make any of the girls feel bad, I just don't think it's right that we lie to them. I wonder if these girls are saying it just to be nice? Or maybe my transdar is too strong and I know what to look for? Like some people tell me I pass but I don't see it.

Now, some of these girls are totally pretty but pretty=/=passable. So, maybe they're mixing the two?

I don't know. Maybe someone can enlighten me a bit.

I don't like to judge, (and im certainly not in a position to critique others appearance) but you make a fair point, regrettably some people do just look the same before and after, except in the after It looks like they are wearing a wig, a dress, and some makeup.

I would rather say nothing at all, Im a terrible liar,and sometimes the truth hurts, a LOT, and i just don't have it in me to upset someone like that. Im too much of a softie.
Certainly I could never go up to strangers and do what Mahsa does, It seems cruel to me. Sorry Mahsa, Im not intending to put you down, but i was a little shocked by your post, you probably made those people very upset!

I should imagine that many in the wider world would certainly not be hesitant to point and laugh though, which is why honest feedback is better than imparting false confidence.
I guess in the end being happy with yourself is the most important thing.

Quote from: fionabell on December 18, 2011, 01:19:42 AM
Maybe you could have followed it when you wrote this post ;)

Hence why I said usually, but I don't always. Good try, though! :P

"If you have nothing nice to say, then don't say it at all come over here and sit next to me."

A.L. Roosevelt (Teddy's daughter, who also once said of her dad "he wanted to be the bride at every wedding and the corpse at every funeral."

I smell bitch.

Smells gewwd.

Quote from: Annah on December 17, 2011, 06:15:51 PM
then you're fine :P

my last girlfriend was deaf, but boy could she talk. That's all she did was talk, talk, talk.

do you know sign language?

Kia Ora 'all',

::) What % of your life/time do you spend judging others and what % do you actually get to live it ?

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Mariposa on December 17, 2011, 09:42:39 PM
Although I have encountered MANY TS Women that couldn't pass on a dark night and were very obviously trans, and as much as I want to approach one of these ladies and very bluntly tell them "That's a wig, B*TCH!", I just can't bring myself to do something like that. SO! I usually just follow by that old saying, "If you have nothing nice to say, then don't say it at all.". And I do just that. I don't go out of my way to compliment someone either unless I absolutely think they're jaw-droppingly beautiful and pass without question. I give credit where it is due. And don't even get me started on those girls who fish for compliments! No, no, no M'AM!

Girl I agree with you 100 percent! 

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on December 17, 2011, 09:57:03 PM
I have an eye for it. Like this girl who works at MAC Bloomingdales, she looks 100% female...But I know. It's like a feeling I get.

But I comment them if they look really good. I am not a bitch in public. Just on message forums.

I am supposed to be in SF on the spring, end of march, maybe we can have a cup of coffe

Quote from: MsDazzler on December 18, 2011, 01:13:30 PM
do you know sign language?

yes

Jen, you look great.  Yes, we have better transdar.  Yes, people are very kind when commenting on pics.  Passing is relative.   Everyone uses the term differently.  To some, it means nobody will read you.  To others it means nobody will laugh at you.  To me, it means you look good enough that you could just be an ugly woman, or a woman with a deep voice, and nobody knows for sure.

Quote from: Jen61 on December 18, 2011, 06:46:48 PM
I am supposed to be in SF on the spring, end of march, maybe we can have a cup of coffe

Okay.... *scampers away*

Quote from: JoeyD on December 18, 2011, 01:08:34 PM
I smell bitch.

Smells gewwd.

I love the smell of bitch in the morning.

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on December 17, 2011, 02:54:19 PM
Gay men are the most conditioned, cuz we see everything from every angle.

So you're a gay man.  And that's not to cast aspersions, but good to know when reading your perspective on trans people.

It is, however, nice to find a gay man who appears trans and admits being a gay man.  So many gay men I've met who appear trans just deny, deny, deny they are gay.  Personally, I don't get the denial.  Just be who you are and let the judgmental do the worrying. 

Quote from: Annah on December 18, 2011, 11:54:14 PM
yes

Having graduated from RIT, home of the National Technical Institute for the Deaf, I miss the loads of people surrounding me all conversing in ASL. It was certainly a culture shock when I spent my second year at a community college in my home town, three-thousand miles away from the campus. Also, having a deaf SO makes the whole voice thing a lot less stressful, not that you don't have that all figured out and some Annah  ;D.

Oh, and this topic has been beaten to a pulp. It's not even recognizable as the dead horse that it is. I'm not even going to repeat myself, you can dig through my history if you can read the lengthy posts I've made about the subject.

Quote from: Julie Marie on December 20, 2011, 06:09:21 AM
So you're a gay man.  And that's not to cast aspersions, but good to know when reading your perspective on trans people.

It is, however, nice to find a gay man who appears trans and admits being a gay man.  So many gay men I've met who appear trans just deny, deny, deny they are gay.  Personally, I don't get the denial.  Just be who you are and let the judgmental do the worrying.

Not quite. You will never figure out my personal identity and you probably shouldn't try. But I identify with both, despite having the appearance of a woman sorry, this is not gonna turn into a "trannier than thou" response. It's my body, my life, and my rules.

Denial of what, exactly?

Quote from: Julie Marie on December 20, 2011, 06:09:21 AM
So you're a gay man.  And that's not to cast aspersions, but good to know when reading your perspective on trans people.

It is, however, nice to find a gay man who appears trans and admits being a gay man.So many [u]gay men I've met who appear trans[/u] just deny, deny, deny they are gay.    Personally, I don't get the denial.  Just be who you are and let the judgmental do the worrying.

That's a funny accusation to make...how about the MTF's who are and remain totally masculine, being into weapons, gunplay, are militairy'girls', and all these masculine things they like by their very nature PLUS who are into women too?

The other way around? According to you?  Appearing as trans but  being straight men in denial?  I've never read something like that from a moderator :-) (who's breaking the rules by calling MTF 'men' ( 'in denial' but appearing as trans. Very offensive)

If the subject about being MTF with VERY masculine interests plus having a VERY masculine nature comes up those MTF's claim/shout/scream they're '100% woman and no less than a born woman' as an answer (and you'll agree with them of course) while Masha just says she has the appearance of a woman, which is very accurate.
< But I identify with both, despite having the appearance of a woman>

Big difference. And very honest too, btw.

What's wrong with identifying with the gay culture and/or gay men btw?

Also you seem very judgemental about
So many [u]gay men I've met who appear trans[/u] just deny, deny, deny they are gay[/b].    AND deceding for them what they are.
Very rude!

Quote from: Dahlia on January 18, 2012, 10:54:35 AM
That's a funny accusation to make...how about the MTF's who are and remain totally masculine, being into weapons, gunplay, are militairy'girls', and all these masculine things they like by their very nature PLUS who are into women too?

The other way around? According to you?  Appearing as trans but  being straight men in denial?  I've never read something like that from a moderator :-) (who's breaking the rules by calling MTF 'men' ( 'in denial' but appearing as trans. Very offensive)

If the subject about being MTF with VERY masculine interests plus having a VERY masculine nature comes up those MTF's claim/shout/scream they're '100% woman and no less than a born woman' as an answer while Masha just says she has the appearance of a woman, which is very accurate.
< But I identify with both, despite having the appearance of a woman>

Big difference. And very honest too, btw.

What's wrong with identifying with the gay culture and/or gay men btw?

Yea, I'm not in denial and sorry that I happen to have an interest in military aircraft, tanks, exotic cars and video games. I grew up around the military, its had an influence on my life. I'm happy with my wife. And if you knew me before HRT, you may well have thought I was a gay guy. seems like everyone did. But I wasn't.

Passing isn't something that can be judged from one picture. There is SOOO much more to it, how they carry themselves, their posture, how they walk, their voice and mostly their attitude. Any of these can skew the results and someone who might look "like a guy" in a picture could totally pull off woman in RL. Much more likely is someone who looks girly in a picture would get clocked in a second out in public or they say something and people's jaws drop from their voice. I think most trans people, myself included, obsessed on appearance and ignore the dozens of other clues we should be working on in concert with our looks.

All of this stuff is learned behavior. I personally don't see it as being fake or play acting etc learning new behaviors. We learned how to get along as one gender, so we have to learn the same things in our new one.

I also agree honesty is the best and TELL people how to fix what you see. Don't just say "you look like a guy", make some suggestions.

I agree with the OP in a sense that many people tend to tell a TS they pass when they most obviously do not, I understand that this is suppose to encourage a person to transition further and help them overcome their fears of not passing. However I remember once when i went out with a girlfriend of mine and I saw this extremely flamboyant and very obviously Trans woman shopping at the local mall, the people standing in line next to me were catcalling her and screaming obscenities her way. I felt sooooo sorry and embarrassed for her because she must felt as though she looked REALLY good and REALLY passable to show up in broad daylight with a mini skirt and super tall heels. 

Whenever people give others a false sense of security it also allows them to put themselves in such a position where they are risking their lives because they really think they ARE passable when they aren't. In the end these people are not physically THERE to hold her hand when she is being shot down in public, nor are they there to reaffirm to her when she is getting clocked by the mass of cis people who throw insults. This person will later head home and wonder why they did not pass in public. So we should be honest (but in a kind way) out of pure regard to an individual's safety. 

Quote from: Keaira on January 18, 2012, 11:49:26 AM. I'm happy with my wife.

Sounds a bit like 'one way traffic' because you don't mention  whether she's happy with you. Or happy together as a born woman would say about her partner....

Quote from: KillBelle on January 18, 2012, 12:05:45 PM
I agree with the OP in a sense that many people tend to tell a TS they pass when they most obviously do not, I understand that this is suppose to encourage a person to transition further and help them overcome their fears of not passing. However I remember once when i went out with a girlfriend of mine and I saw this extremely flamboyant and very obviously Trans woman shopping at the local mall, the people standing in line next to me were catcalling her and screaming obscenities her way. I felt sooooo sorry and embarrassed for her because she must felt as though she looked REALLY good and REALLY passable to show up in broad daylight with a mini skirt and super tall heels. 

Whenever people give others a false sense of security it also allows them to put themselves in such a position where they are risking their lives because they really think they ARE passable when they aren't. In the end these people are not physically THERE to hold her hand when she is being shot down in public, nor are they there to reaffirm to her when she is getting clocked by the mass of cis people who throw insults. This person will later head home and wonder why they did not pass in public. So we should be honest (but in a kind way) out of pure regard to an individual's safety.

Still I find this very strange...........we're talking about adults, grownups and not feeble minded people or children right?

How on earth can it be that  some ( new and fresh) MTF's aren't able to notice people's facial expressions, their bodylanguage etc?
Totally insensitve to that? A reality disorder? Or what?

Quote from: Dahlia on January 18, 2012, 12:06:35 PM
Sounds a bit like 'one way traffic' because you don't mention  whether she's happy with you. Or happy together as a born woman would say about her partner....

That's because I think the jury is out deliberating. My wife is coming to terms that her husband is now a woman and it's not easy for her. She fought me tooth and nail before HRT to get me to stay male. and I tried. I really did. But she has slowly become more accepting and I'm very thankful of her for that. it's been really hard for her. In a sense she is trying to get to know this new person that she's hated for so long. She used to tell me that she saw Keaira as competition.

Please clarify, I am not getting what you mean.
I remember when I first went full time as a girl at 15, I had no idea how to dress...nor how to do my makeup. So I went out looking like one of those girls from the MAC counter, I got picked on and teased until I almost went blind with depression. But my will to become full-time succeeded my inability to pass, so I continued throwing myself out there...but in vain. The TG girls i knew kept telling me it's ok, i'm beautiful....I look great. But now...after 5-6 years on Hormones...and actually knowing how to act and knowing how to do my makeup etc....I never get clocked. It would have saved me a lot of time and effort if people just told me that I dressed like a hooker and had no idea how to apply makeup back then.

First of all everyone has an opinion.  I am one that often tells people I think they pass when others are saying no they don't.   I'm so tempted to put pictures of my friends on here and show you what I encounter every day.  I know that about 50% of them if you put their picture up here  most people would say they don't pass.

I think a better thread would be,  what do you think works on me.   And then asking people what are their best features.

The other thing is range.  If someone started younger they are going to have a better chance at passing.   Older women are going to have a harder time.  And so if there is nothing they can do about it then there's nothing they can do about it.  So when they ask if they are passing I'm going by what they have use.

For example I think JoeyD passes perfectly.  There was another woman on here who posted recently and I said 100 percent.   She said she was 40 and had just started and I would never in a million years think she wasn't a woman.  I meant it.  I was surprised at how feminine she looked considering she was just starting out.

What bothers me more is when I see people telling posters that they have to wear a wig or grow out their hair etc.   It's about having this "image" of a "woman" and if the poster doesn't look like a "pretty girl" with long hair, make up, no adams apple,  skinny,  etc, then they don't pass.

That to me is saying that you have to look a certain way to pass.   I have also noticed that many of the people on this site who in my opinion,  don't pass,  are much faster to say that others don't pass when to me they do.  They might not look gorgeous.  But they do pass

Would she pass?

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.washingtonpost.com%2Fwp-srv%2Fpolitics%2Fcongress%2Fmembers%2Fphotos%2F228%2FC001041.jpg&hash=96b1711fc2f990473a0ffa5f3e1ba1d07d8fd182)


or her

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.broadwayworld.com%2Fupload%2F38781%2Ftn-500_closewm2810201273.jpg&hash=b09bb2a5bf2b86fcdc083c25c9bebfa629af3ff3)


or her

(https://encrypted-tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT5mX8D_zIF3Poh0sRrd0OUa1cim_e9lvegkqIB94WkFXCosF91cQ)


or her

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.artknowledgenews.com%2Ffiles2008a%2FPilar-1.jpg&hash=378aba8f7638f0cec39593bf2905bcb9dac7aab6)


Here's what I think doesn't pass

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Febar.com%2Fimages%2Farticles%2F09_08_Hastings_03.jpg&hash=e9531536d02426e28f6b1aa048f272df9cb0160a)

Fake hair,  way too much make up,  chola brows and dark red lipstick.  If you scrubbed her off and put on a more natural hair, then to me she'd pass.


When I see people telling people to put on make up and get a wig,  this is what I think will pass.   I've mentioned that some people look like orthodox jewish women on this site because of the wigs

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsavvima.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2010%2F10%2FSheitel-2.jpg&hash=d9990b63c14872997d1b8e897bd1376151333560)

This woman would probably be told she doesn't pass.  Or that she passes but you can still clock her etc.   I suppose some of you must live in very isolated areas with very little diversity in women.  Because when I say someone passes I am thinking  "If I saw the person on the street would I "clock them."  I have clocked a transgender woman before.  She looked a lot like the picture above.

So in some cases I think it's turning into a fake sort of woman.   No woman I know would be caught dead walking out of their house with the make up and hair that the woman has in the blue shirt.  It looks "->-bleeped-<-."

So to me the question is,  can you pass as is.  Would I immediately think you are a woman.  Some people have posted you tube videos that they show their voice and mannerisms.  And that changes the game.  The "put on voice." and other body movements etc.   That's also what "clocks" a person.  But if you are asking does your picture pass,  lets say just for a facebook page,  then yes I'll be honest if you pass.

I have also personally sent people PMs if they don't really pass and have given people pointers. 


There's a difference in asking for constructive feedback and asking for "Can I pass"   Well frankly just because you pass doesn't mean you are beautiful.  You just look like an ugly woman.    Sometimes I'll give feedback as to go for a certain look or emulate a certain style.   Seems to me that people give advice on here on how to definitely look "->-bleeped-<-"  or Drag Queenish.   Then they think it's expert opinion or something.

Very few woman on this site that I have seen look like movie stars or models.  JoeyD and Natalie are two I think that do.   But some of you look like gorgeous regular women.   And if others are annoyed because they don't like seeing someone else get a compliment.  Then that is on you.  It doesn't make the statement not true.

I have shared my experience with being clocked as a cisgender woman.  But I also have experiences that have shown me that not everyone sees everyone the same way.  For example my own mother used to say I was hulking and brutish because I was so tall.  She said I walked like a man.   And I totally believed her for years.

Then one year I was in a play  "The House of Bernarda Alba"  and I played the "ugly sister"  and the director stopped the rehearsal one day and took me aside and had someone work with me on my stage movement because he said     "You are too graceful in your movements,  you are supposed to be moving like you are oppressed or in a masculine way."   I was dumbfounded and told my friends that I already thought I did.  They all thought I was ridiculous.  They said I moved like a ballet dancer.  Very graceful.      So because one person told me something,  I believed it.  It completely wasn't true.

So my advice would be this,  why do you think so many people don't pass?   What's going on with you, if you are so sure that you can tell the person doesn't pass?   

If someone has  a masculine jaw, and that's it,  then to me they look like a woman with a masculine jaw.   One girl put up a totally gorgeous picture with an adams apple showing.  To me she looked totally cis but like she had an adams apple.    Brawny arms?   Well she looks like a woman with brawny arms.

To me the only way a woman won't pass is if she's got more than two features that are masculine.   So a strong brow,  fake hair and five o'clock shadow, then yeah no.    Strong jaw,  adams apple and very brawny shoulder area,  then yeah no.

But having one or two features doesn't make you masculine.   Having a narrow hip line makes you look like a woman with a narrow hip line.


I think people are insecure about their own ability to pass and project that onto other people.   I mean isn't the whole point of this thread


"How dare you tell them they pass when I can clearly see that they don't.   You are dooming them.   You are giving them false hope.  How dare you not tell them MY truth. How dare you have a different opinion.  You must be lying."


That's how it comes across to me.   So get over it.  Not everyone sees people the same way.

Quote from: KillBelle on January 18, 2012, 12:26:55 PM
The TG girls i knew kept telling me it's ok, i'm beautiful....I look great. But now...after 5-6 years on Hormones...and actually knowing how to act and knowing how to do my makeup etc....I never get clocked. It would have saved me a lot of time and effort if people just told me that I dressed like a hooker and had no idea how to apply makeup back then.

It just doesn't work in real life........I told  a MTF she should grow out her eyebrows a bit because too thin plucked, pencilled in eyebrows tend to make born women  look dumb/cheap/whorish/harsh and most born women know that.
And some MTF's don't seem to realise that.
I told her that eyebrows consist of thin hairs and not (red!) pencil lines............and should be a bit wide.

Then she had her eyebrows tattood.............in a horrible harsh looking fashion, drawing a lot of attention to her rather masculine facial features.

Then there's another make up issue: tons of death mask foundation and powder...draws a lot attention too because it makes your facial skin look like a death mask...

A normal, healthy skin is a bit glossy.......so if a MTF has to hide beardgrowth she'd better use a foundation that's a teeny tiny bit shiny.

Wigs..........terrible cheap looking nylonwigs, too thick, too full, too shiny making a MTF head look even bigger than it already is...

Clothes.......better wear somewhat androgynous clothes....because stereotypical women's clothes will accentuate your masculine physical features.......


Etcetcetc and I just stopped telling MTF's what exactly make people clock them IF they asked me...

I agree that some are definitely too generous with their assessments, but there are a few that, I think, have a very narrow view of what a woman looks like. 

I think some people need to get over this perception that to be passable, one has to be really gorgeous.

I think that my cis-gendered girlfriend is really cute, but I know that if I posted a pic of her in that thread a few girls would comment about something not passing or that something needs fixing.

Quote from: mixie on January 18, 2012, 12:50:32 PM
First of all everyone has an opinion.  I am one that often tells people I think they pass when others are saying no they don't.   I'm so tempted to put pictures of my friends on here and show you what I encounter every day.  I know that about 50% of them if you put their picture up here  most people would say they don't pass.

I think a better thread would be,  what do you think works on me.   And then asking people what are their best features.

The other thing is range.  If someone started younger they are going to have a better chance at passing.   Older women are going to have a harder time.  And so if there is nothing they can do about it then there's nothing they can do about it.  So when they ask if they are passing I'm going by what they have use.

For example I think JoeyD passes perfectly.  There was another woman on here who posted recently and I said 100 percent.   She said she was 40 and had just started and I would never in a million years think she wasn't a woman.  I meant it.  I was surprised at how feminine she looked considering she was just starting out.

What bothers me more is when I see people telling posters that they have to wear a wig or grow out their hair etc.   It's about having this "image" of a "woman" and if the poster doesn't look like a "pretty girl" with long hair, make up, no adams apple,  skinny,  etc, then they don't pass.

That to me is saying that you have to look a certain way to pass.   I have also noticed that many of the people on this site who in my opinion,  don't pass,  are much faster to say that others don't pass when to me they do.  They might not look gorgeous.  But they do pass

I completely agree with you, especially the part about the bad makeup bring out certain features. A person doesn't need to be pretty to pass, they just have to be well put together.

Quote from: Dahlia on January 18, 2012, 01:00:33 PM
It just doesn't work in real life........I told  a MTF she should grow out her eyebrows a bit because too thin plucked, pencilled in eyebrows tend to make born women  look dumb/cheap/whorish/harsh and most born women know that.
And some MTF's don't seem to realise that.
I told her that eyebrows consist of thin hairs and not (red!) pencil lines............and should be a bit wide.

Then she had her eyebrows tattood.............in a horrible harsh looking fashion, drawing a lot of attention to her rather masculine facial features.

Then there's another make up issue: tons of death mask foundation and powder...draws a lot attention too because it makes your facial skin look like a death mask...

A normal, healthy skin is a bit glossy.......so if a MTF has to hide beardgrowth she'd better use a foundation that's a teeny tiny bit shiny.

Wigs..........terrible cheap looking nylonwigs, too thick, too full, too shiny making a MTF head look even bigger than it already is...

Clothes.......better wear somewhat androgynous clothes....because stereotypical women's clothes will accentuate your masculine physical features.......


Etcetcetc and I just stopped telling MTF's what exactly make people clock them IF they asked me...

I agree.

mixie I <3 you so much right now. I've been wanting to post something just like that but didn't know how to voice it.

IMO, people are far too critical sometimes on here. Though I assume the Do I Pass threads are for going out in public over say passing to a date, one step at a time, so that's where I am coming from on this post. If I say they pass it's because I believe it and am seeing them as if I didn't know they were trans and would a glance on the street give them away. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Sure if someone stands there and stares at you face to face for a bit they could probably notice jaws and hairlines.

As people have told me in my thread, other people don't really care that much about you and your problems. Same goes for looks, unless you are really odd looking or drop dead gorgeous chances are people will just keep on going without stopping to yell "TRANS" and point accusingly. Granted I'm being general here on the polar opposites that attract attention, some may not pass because of obvious mistakes and those are the ones that could use some help from us, but telling those that we feel could visually pass without hardcore scrutiny that they totally don't is just mean to me.

As others have said also, there are many ciswomen that would not pass here. My gf/ex/? would probably be really scrutinized unfairly here. She has a pretty large forehead, her nose is a bit off from being broken when she was young and her face has a very german angular aspect to it. I think she's beautiful but the standards I see around here would say she needed serious work, not really a realistic outlook to me.

Bottom line be honest of course, but make sure you are looking at their pics from a realistic point of view. Most people don't look that deeply at a random person.

Aww thanks Amalina.   (((HUGS)))

Oh there's something else I've been wondering about going out in public.   I wonder if most of you don't realize that men will look at you,  women will look at you because women pretty much spend the entire day getting looked at and checked out and scanned.   ALL DAY LONG.  In fact I've subconsciously trained myself not to make eye contact with men on the street because it comes across as an invitation of sorts.   So tend to look around rather than "at" people.

But I've wondered if transgender women might be mistaking being looked at as being clocked.   Just curious if anyone has any experience with that. 

Quote from: mixie on January 18, 2012, 01:35:39 PM
Aww thanks Amalina.   (((HUGS)))

Oh there's something else I've been wondering about going out in public.   I wonder if most of you don't realize that men will look at you,  women will look at you because women pretty much spend the entire day getting looked at and checked out and scanned.   ALL DAY LONG.  In fact I've subconsciously trained myself not to make eye contact with men on the street because it comes across as an invitation of sorts.   So tend to look around rather than "at" people.

But I've wondered if transgender women might be mistaking being looked at as being clocked.   Just curious if anyone has any experience with that.

Personally I try to give a light smile if I catch someone looking at me. because other wise it comes off Bitchy. :laugh:

Quote from: mixie on January 18, 2012, 01:35:39 PM
Aww thanks Amalina.   (((HUGS)))

Oh there's something else I've been wondering about going out in public.   I wonder if most of you don't realize that men will look at you,  women will look at you because women pretty much spend the entire day getting looked at and checked out and scanned.   ALL DAY LONG.  In fact I've subconsciously trained myself not to make eye contact with men on the street because it comes across as an invitation of sorts.   So tend to look around rather than "at" people.

But I've wondered if transgender women might be mistaking being looked at as being clocked.   Just curious if anyone has any experience with that.

Very cool article on this subject: http://www.autostraddle.com/on-display-navigating-the-male-gaze-108521/ (http://www.autostraddle.com/on-display-navigating-the-male-gaze-108521/)

And ya, it's a bit of an odd experience getting stared at all the time. Can never really go invisible in public anymore, someone is ALWAYS looking at you. I thought I'd be kind of immune since I present more andro, but it's obviously not enough.

Eventually I'll get used to it I guess. And at least I get stared at less than when I was totally ungenderable.

Quote from: mixie on January 18, 2012, 12:50:32 PM
First of all everyone has an opinion.  I am one that often tells people I think they pass when others are saying no they don't.   I'm so tempted to put pictures of my friends on here and show you what I encounter every day.  I know that about 50% of them if you put their picture up here  most people would say they don't pass.

I think a better thread would be,  what do you think works on me.   And then asking people what are their best features.

The other thing is range.  If someone started younger they are going to have a better chance at passing.   Older women are going to have a harder time.  And so if there is nothing they can do about it then there's nothing they can do about it.  So when they ask if they are passing I'm going by what they have use.

For example I think JoeyD passes perfectly.  There was another woman on here who posted recently and I said 100 percent.   She said she was 40 and had just started and I would never in a million years think she wasn't a woman.  I meant it.  I was surprised at how feminine she looked considering she was just starting out.

What bothers me more is when I see people telling posters that they have to wear a wig or grow out their hair etc.   It's about having this "image" of a "woman" and if the poster doesn't look like a "pretty girl" with long hair, make up, no adams apple,  skinny,  etc, then they don't pass.

That to me is saying that you have to look a certain way to pass.   I have also noticed that many of the people on this site who in my opinion,  don't pass,  are much faster to say that others don't pass when to me they do.  They might not look gorgeous.  But they do pass

Would she pass?

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.washingtonpost.com%2Fwp-srv%2Fpolitics%2Fcongress%2Fmembers%2Fphotos%2F228%2FC001041.jpg&hash=96b1711fc2f990473a0ffa5f3e1ba1d07d8fd182)


or her

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.broadwayworld.com%2Fupload%2F38781%2Ftn-500_closewm2810201273.jpg&hash=b09bb2a5bf2b86fcdc083c25c9bebfa629af3ff3)


or her

(https://encrypted-tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT5mX8D_zIF3Poh0sRrd0OUa1cim_e9lvegkqIB94WkFXCosF91cQ)


or her

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.artknowledgenews.com%2Ffiles2008a%2FPilar-1.jpg&hash=378aba8f7638f0cec39593bf2905bcb9dac7aab6)


Here's what I think doesn't pass

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Febar.com%2Fimages%2Farticles%2F09_08_Hastings_03.jpg&hash=e9531536d02426e28f6b1aa048f272df9cb0160a)

Fake hair,  way too much make up,  chola brows and dark red lipstick.  If you scrubbed her off and put on a more natural hair, then to me she'd pass.


When I see people telling people to put on make up and get a wig,  this is what I think will pass.   I've mentioned that some people look like orthodox jewish women on this site because of the wigs

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsavvima.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2010%2F10%2FSheitel-2.jpg&hash=d9990b63c14872997d1b8e897bd1376151333560)

This woman would probably be told she doesn't pass.  Or that she passes but you can still clock her etc.   I suppose some of you must live in very isolated areas with very little diversity in women.  Because when I say someone passes I am thinking  "If I saw the person on the street would I "clock them."  I have clocked a transgender woman before.  She looked a lot like the picture above.

So in some cases I think it's turning into a fake sort of woman.   No woman I know would be caught dead walking out of their house with the make up and hair that the woman has in the blue shirt.  It looks "->-bleeped-<-."

So to me the question is,  can you pass as is.  Would I immediately think you are a woman.  Some people have posted you tube videos that they show their voice and mannerisms.  And that changes the game.  The "put on voice." and other body movements etc.   That's also what "clocks" a person.  But if you are asking does your picture pass,  lets say just for a facebook page,  then yes I'll be honest if you pass.

I have also personally sent people PMs if they don't really pass and have given people pointers. 


There's a difference in asking for constructive feedback and asking for "Can I pass"   Well frankly just because you pass doesn't mean you are beautiful.  You just look like an ugly woman.    Sometimes I'll give feedback as to go for a certain look or emulate a certain style.   Seems to me that people give advice on here on how to definitely look "->-bleeped-<-"  or Drag Queenish.   Then they think it's expert opinion or something.

Very few woman on this site that I have seen look like movie stars or models.  JoeyD and Natalie are two I think that do.   But some of you look like gorgeous regular women.   And if others are annoyed because they don't like seeing someone else get a compliment.  Then that is on you.  It doesn't make the statement not true.

I have shared my experience with being clocked as a cisgender woman.  But I also have experiences that have shown me that not everyone sees everyone the same way.  For example my own mother used to say I was hulking and brutish because I was so tall.  She said I walked like a man.   And I totally believed her for years.

Then one year I was in a play  "The House of Bernarda Alba"  and I played the "ugly sister"  and the director stopped the rehearsal one day and took me aside and had someone work with me on my stage movement because he said     "You are too graceful in your movements,  you are supposed to be moving like you are oppressed or in a masculine way."   I was dumbfounded and told my friends that I already thought I did.  They all thought I was ridiculous.  They said I moved like a ballet dancer.  Very graceful.      So because one person told me something,  I believed it.  It completely wasn't true.

So my advice would be this,  why do you think so many people don't pass?   What's going on with you, if you are so sure that you can tell the person doesn't pass?   

If someone has  a masculine jaw, and that's it,  then to me they look like a woman with a masculine jaw.   One girl put up a totally gorgeous picture with an adams apple showing.  To me she looked totally cis but like she had an adams apple.    Brawny arms?   Well she looks like a woman with brawny arms.

To me the only way a woman won't pass is if she's got more than two features that are masculine.   So a strong brow,  fake hair and five o'clock shadow, then yeah no.    Strong jaw,  adams apple and very brawny shoulder area,  then yeah no.

But having one or two features doesn't make you masculine.   Having a narrow hip line makes you look like a woman with a narrow hip line.


I think people are insecure about their own ability to pass and project that onto other people.   I mean isn't the whole point of this thread


"How dare you tell them they pass when I can clearly see that they don't.   You are dooming them.   You are giving them false hope.  How dare you not tell them MY truth. How dare you have a different opinion.  You must be lying."


That's how it comes across to me.   So get over it.  Not everyone sees people the same way.

Okay, full pass on the last pics except for the makeup on the next last one, then, is that correctly understood? No need for FFS and such?
I will take the liberty to experiment alittle now and will therefore put up some pics of people with moderate makeup and with fairly 'natural' hairstyles.
My question to you is, can you tell only from facial build which one is most likely a Cis-female on which one/s is Trans?

And if so, why?
If not, why?

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.secondtype.info%2Fimages%2Fjudith.jpg&hash=3571c1dab201e88807f8110ebec7de5e822bbec4)(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-K7SL2aoDsVM%2FThtdKPDMEeI%2FAAAAAAAAEKM%2FZTMpZXv-3CE%2Fs1600%2Fcute-blonde-emo-girl-scene-hair.jpg&hash=e410988289008c9a59097722c0c8d1dd281ac05d)(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.secondtype.info%2Fimages%2Fsusan.jpg&hash=758aca6c80a91bcc445817db80b43bc9b2291b02)

Quote from: Beverley on January 18, 2012, 01:20:57 PM

Voice is a real issue that many of us fail to deal with. In my trans support group, there are about six or seven ladies that have really deep masculine, booming voices and I find it so hard not to think 'him' instead of 'her'. The voice triggers me and if it does that to me what is it like for an ordinary non-trans person?

Right there is a trans girl in our church = I = have screwed up and called he/him due to their booming voice. It's hard to see/think female when you're listening to a guys voice. I've seen PLENTY of women I really wasn't sure about, maybe they looked real andro with shortish hair etc but when they said something, it clocked them A or B. I'm sure if someone did call me sir now (it's been a LONG time thank God) all I'd have to do is say "excuse me?" and they would apologize.

Quote from: Dahlia on January 18, 2012, 01:00:33 PM
It just doesn't work in real life........I told  a MTF she should grow out her eyebrows a bit because too thin plucked, pencilled in eyebrows tend to make born women  look dumb/cheap/whorish/harsh and most born women know that.
And some MTF's don't seem to realise that.
I told her that eyebrows consist of thin hairs and not (red!) pencil lines............and should be a bit wide.
Check!
Then she had her eyebrows tattood.............in a horrible harsh looking fashion, drawing a lot of attention to her rather masculine facial features.
No Tattoos, Check!
Then there's another make up issue: tons of death mask foundation and powder...draws a lot attention too because it makes your facial skin look like a death mask...
Apart from some Lipbalm, no make/up at all....so, Half/Check I guess. I can never see myself walk around with that extremely shiny red lipstick, lol
A normal, healthy skin is a bit glossy.......so if a MTF has to hide beardgrowth she'd better use a foundation that's a teeny tiny bit shiny.
I prefer the ´healthy skin is best skin´ approach. Sometimes I see girls walk around with tons of blush and bronze and I feel a little sad about it
Wigs..........terrible cheap looking nylonwigs, too thick, too full, too shiny making a MTF head look even bigger than it already is...
Ughh, I would consider hair/implants first...wigs would make me full like a clown , and since most wigs you see are a bit clowny I stay away from those
Clothes.......better wear somewhat androgynous clothes....because stereotypical women's clothes will accentuate your masculine physical features.......
I wear uni/sex-androgynous most of the time

Adding a little comment outside of the quote: It's good to read so many tips and things, especially before everything is changing in my life. I am still in my pre-hormones talks with my psychologist (at the national genderclinic in a hospital) but I hope to start this year, it's getting very exciting...and I am getting anxcious

She asked me today about the negatives and positives of life -pshysical, mentally, socially) of being a man or woman and how I viewed that, and while talking about that she also mentioned she read from my psychological test I had to under-go previously that my face looked more feminine than almost all the other clients she saw. Maybe a motivational thing to say, maybe honest, I am not sure :)

Anyway, about the 'Do I Pass thread, I agree with Mari..I just don't post there because it's a little too sensitive and I don't like to lie to someone who has the idea that he/she passes. A lot more men pass but I guess it's just easier for them because coming from a bio woman's body it's easier become more masculine. Looking prettier is tougher than looking tough :P

Quote from: Bishounen on January 18, 2012, 02:10:09 PM
Okay, full pass on the last pics except for the makeup on the next last one, then, is that correctly understood? No need for FFS and such?
I will take the liberty to experiment alittle now and will therefore put up some pics of people with moderate makeup and with fairly 'natural' hairstyles.
My question to you is, can you tell only from facial build which one is most likely a Cis-female on which one/s is Trans?

And if so, why?
If not, why?

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.secondtype.info%2Fimages%2Fjudith.jpg&hash=3571c1dab201e88807f8110ebec7de5e822bbec4)(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-K7SL2aoDsVM%2FThtdKPDMEeI%2FAAAAAAAAEKM%2FZTMpZXv-3CE%2Fs1600%2Fcute-blonde-emo-girl-scene-hair.jpg&hash=e410988289008c9a59097722c0c8d1dd281ac05d)

Are you asking me this?  Because I'm not sure.    But yes I think that if the woman in the blue shirt washed her face and even went with short hair but say "earrings"  that she'd pass  much much better than she does with all that crap on her face.

Unless you are very young,  or are going for a look,  I do not think any woman should ever wear eyeshadow.  Especially not purple eye shadow.  Does she really think that makes her look like a woman?


The picture you posted her is obviously passing.  I don't think the OP would say it's wrong to say full pass on that one. 

Can you tell from facial features,   only the brow to me.  If a woman has a very strong brow then she will have a harder time passing.  And also beard growth.  That's another clue and I do understand that sometimes people have to wear a ton of make up to cover the shadow.  So that's different as well.



Also that article was fantastic.  I hope people read it.

Quote from: mixie on January 18, 2012, 01:35:39 PM
Aww thanks Amalina.   (((HUGS)))

Oh there's something else I've been wondering about going out in public.   I wonder if most of you don't realize that men will look at you,  women will look at you because women pretty much spend the entire day getting looked at and checked out and scanned.   ALL DAY LONG.  In fact I've subconsciously trained myself not to make eye contact with men on the street because it comes across as an invitation of sorts.   So tend to look around rather than "at" people.

But I've wondered if transgender women might be mistaking being looked at as being clocked.   Just curious if anyone has any experience with that.

You're so right! But there's a difference between male and female 'being looked at': (straight) males try to look me in the eyes, which I avoid by turning my face half a way,  (straight) females tend to check out my hair, make up, earrings, clothing, shoes and not really who's in them.

And oh, btw: I don't look very nice without my not too light, not too dark purple eyeshadow above my green eyes ;-)

That article was a good read but made me wonder............how anyone could go from a totally passable boy (= masculine comportment etc)  to a totally passable girl (feminine comportment etc) in only a few months?

She dresses like a fifties housewife I dress like Jackie Kennedy/Audrey Hepburn early to mid sixties. Love that simple elegant style.

Quote from: Beverley on January 18, 2012, 01:20:57 PM
I am sure that people on here are fed up with me saying this, but confidence in yourself is EVERYTHING. I do not photograph well but I pass OK. I spent Monday night in a crowded mall in one of England's biggest shopping centres, I talked with people and shop assistants and none of them had the momentary hesitation and doubtful eyes that say "clocked". Not one. I was in and out of ladies' changing rooms too. Did I pass? Yes I did.

when I was on my 3rd month of HRT I tried on swimsuits with a friend. I used the womens changing rooms and there was no issue. But I sure felt self conscious. lol

Quote from: Dahlia on January 18, 2012, 03:45:55 PM

That article was a good read but made me wonder............how anyone could go from a totally passable boy (= masculine comportment etc)  to a totally passable girl (feminine comportment etc) in only a few months?

I could switch both gender personalities easily.
Of course I prefer the female one since it's me.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi302.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fnn90%2Fjoseph_jealousy%2F07adfa19dbbc__1288513208000.jpg&hash=54efa3e21324fd95f1b82530d42e74a7b597a9ae)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi302.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fnn90%2Fjoseph_jealousy%2F2235b59a40b6__1290016322000.jpg&hash=a9c3bb4c68eee832ee77f8bc753960f3a93409a1)

to

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi302.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fnn90%2Fjoseph_jealousy%2F109.jpg&hash=d5bc2e070f9782e55c8a2076148ce73f03302b3f)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi302.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fnn90%2Fjoseph_jealousy%2Fmeand-%253E-bleeped-%253C-.jpg&hash=e320ba89c81ac72c3e1a767b26f7a4544daaf4cb)
(these are before hormones, btw)

Androgyny is a gift. ^_^

Quote from: mixie on January 18, 2012, 01:35:39 PM
Aww thanks Amalina.   (((HUGS)))

Oh there's something else I've been wondering about going out in public.   I wonder if most of you don't realize that men will look at you,  women will look at you because women pretty much spend the entire day getting looked at and checked out and scanned.   ALL DAY LONG.  In fact I've subconsciously trained myself not to make eye contact with men on the street because it comes across as an invitation of sorts.   So tend to look around rather than "at" people.

But I've wondered if transgender women might be mistaking being looked at as being clocked.   Just curious if anyone has any experience with that.

I don't know, I always tend to go in to a store with a purpose. I've made eye contact with lots of strangers and I've not seen anyone do a double take either, even at my most feminine looking. heck, even before  HRT though I've been called a 'lady', so I do think Clothing choice is very important. Even your coat can boost your appearance. I will, if I can, wear this particular coat when it's cold. and it's gotten me the best reactions before HRT.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi688.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fvv246%2FKeairaElisabeth%2FKeairaBomberJacket.jpg&hash=12db03ab0fffbe89741c09fe36752e69cdef6520)

One good thing is that it has an inner bolero-like zipper piece inside that has a mock turtle neck collar that can obscure the appearance of your neck and therefore your adams apple. and it looks very feminine yet kind of classy. I'll be wearing it with my dress that I want if It's cold outside.

Quote from: Dahlia on January 18, 2012, 03:45:55 PM
That article was a good read but made me wonder............how anyone could go from a totally passable boy (= masculine comportment etc)  to a totally passable girl (feminine comportment etc) in only a few months?

Annika started off very androgynous. She was only around 7 months on HRT when she wrote that article. And some of us don't ever have much in the way of masculine mannerisms or movement or even voice.

*Shrug* It happens. Some of us get lucky. Some of us get very lucky. (Points at JoeyD :P ) I was wandering around women's change rooms after 6 months on hormones myself.

This is her blog: http://transgenderexpress.wordpress.com/ (http://transgenderexpress.wordpress.com/)
You can see what she started out like.

Quote from: JoeyD on January 18, 2012, 04:13:10 PM
I could easily switch both gender personalities easily.
Of course I prefer the female one since it's me.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi302.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fnn90%2Fjoseph_jealousy%2F07adfa19dbbc__1288513208000.jpg&hash=54efa3e21324fd95f1b82530d42e74a7b597a9ae)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi302.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fnn90%2Fjoseph_jealousy%2F2235b59a40b6__1290016322000.jpg&hash=a9c3bb4c68eee832ee77f8bc753960f3a93409a1)

to

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi302.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fnn90%2Fjoseph_jealousy%2F109.jpg&hash=d5bc2e070f9782e55c8a2076148ce73f03302b3f)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi302.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fnn90%2Fjoseph_jealousy%2Fmeand-%253E-bleeped-%253C-.jpg&hash=e320ba89c81ac72c3e1a767b26f7a4544daaf4cb)
(these are before hormones, btw)

Androgyny is a gift. ^_^

Wow! yea, you look like 2 different people. :D

Quote from: Sarah7 on January 18, 2012, 04:18:39 PM
Annika started off very androgynous. She was only around 7 months on HRT when she wrote that article. And some of us don't ever have much in the way of masculine mannerisms or movement or even voice.

*Shrug* It happens. Some of us get lucky. Some of us get very lucky. (Points at JoeyD :P ) I was wandering around women's change rooms after 6 months on hormones myself.

This is her blog: http://transgenderexpress.wordpress.com/ (http://transgenderexpress.wordpress.com/)
You can see what she started out like.

<I used to be invisible in public when I was read as a heternormative white upper-middle-class cisgender boy>

Doesn't sound too androgynous....not even 'gayish'

She describes her androgynous state when she started using make up etc.


And being naturally totally androgynous means getting looked at too, as I remember from my pre hrt days.

People trying to decide what sex I was, sometimes for more than 20 seconds....and no, it was impossible for me to switch from a totally passable boy to a totally passable girl like JoeyD describes. I wasn't a passable boy at all. And trying to would have been ridiculous, like bad acting.

I was (naturally) androgynous to such a degree I could only switch to a passable girl.

I've NEVER EVER tasted the 'privilege' of being a passable man...way too androgynous pre HRT.

And I wish I had! Really!
I simply miss something about that in my past...being unhappy as a passable male is something I prefer to being unhapply as totally androgynous/way too feminine as a man.
Makes you very visible AND vulnerable too. No way of leading a 'normal' life when you're visible like that, sticking out like a sore thumb, having an education, building a carreer etcetcetc.
THAT was impossible for me, because of being very androgynous looking and naturally feminine acting.

So yes, considering that I envy 'ex straight' MTF's.

I read a post in the FFS section about someone who KNEW she was MTF, married  a woman nevertheless, had an excellent education, built a supercareer that made her earn A LOT of $$$, divorced her wife and spend A LOT of $$$$ on FFS....

Minus the wife, I was and am only into men... and not capable of lying THAT harsh to people/a partner...I would have done the same.

That's a good foundation for later life as a MTF plus it gives you the excellent chance to build a strong, healthy, cast iron ego.

I'm a visiting nurse btw.

Quote from: Dahlia on January 18, 2012, 04:34:09 PM
<I used to be invisible in public when I was read as a heternormative white upper-middle-class cisgender boy>

Doesn't sound too androgynous....not even 'gayish'

She describes her androgynous state when she started using make up etc.


And being naturally totally androgynous means getting looked at too, as I remember from my pre hrt days. But she describes her androgynous state when she started using make up etc.

People trying to decide what sex I was, sometimes for more than 20 seconds....and no, it was impossible for me to switch from totally passable boy to a totally passable girl like Joey describes.

I was (naturally) androgynous to such a degree I could only switch to a passable girl.

I've NEVER EVER tasted the 'privilege' of being a passable man...way too androgynous pre HRT.

And I wish I had! Really!

Seriously? I was constantly seen as effeminate or gay. which used to really make my blood boil. I mean one of my Sister-in-Law's even told my wife when she met me that she thought I was very feminine. And this was how I looked:

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi688.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fvv246%2FKeairaElisabeth%2FEPSON005.jpg&hash=589f6624be12d951e514e6b9478ec78244aa0b0a)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi688.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fvv246%2FKeairaElisabeth%2FEPSON011.jpg&hash=0a09089f669bfa845546c8174843abe89a45998f)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi688.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fvv246%2FKeairaElisabeth%2FEPSON006.jpg&hash=7e4d192e6fcf1745ef74f67b57737089d958bbc3)

I think I look pretty guy-ish there right?

Quote from: Beverley on January 18, 2012, 04:25:10 PM
Wow. Good for you. I lack the nerve for that just yet.

Beverley

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi688.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fvv246%2FKeairaElisabeth%2Fphoto-9.jpg&hash=a5d91d3e4ba13fcb60a51336a97894243242c4e4)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi688.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fvv246%2FKeairaElisabeth%2Fphoto-12.jpg&hash=c3e7c893385ddcdeb4dd2cf60b920f191333a9cd)

You just have to take that one step out of your comfort zone.

 Passing is a pretty difficult thing to judge, what with it being so individual. I don't believe that a certain number of characteristics of a certain degree of severity can point to passability or not in a methodological way - I rather believe that it should be taken at face-value every time. And it's not always about what a person looks like, but what they do with what they look like, their posture, their mannerisms, and everything else.

I'm a bit harsh in my criticism. I know I've seen people that are told they pass when they don't... though, I have also seen people that I believe do pass, or could pass with minor adjustments, that are told that they do not pass.

I would probably clock myself if I saw myself walking down the street. I don't know if I pass or not - my experience has told me that I do, but I take issue with my face and its bone structure. Many will say I pass, some may say I don't...

And as such, I don't believe anyone has the authority or the right to say "Umm, no, you actually don't pass." People's opinions are different, and while trying to judge whether someone is passable or not could be perceived as a science, it is in fact extremely subjective, and no two people will ever have the exact same feelings and opinions when making a verdict.

The closest thing to truth you can have is when many people express their opinions, and you try to decide for yourself how well you're presenting to the general public. But again, that is nothing that anyone other than the subject can make a decision on.

Maybe I should make a post in the Do I Pass thread ;O. Might be fun... alas, it is nearly time to get ready and get going.

Quote from: mixie on January 18, 2012, 12:50:32 PMOne girl put up a totally gorgeous picture with an adams apple showing.  To me she looked totally cis but like she had an adams apple. 

You're talking about me aren't you? Geez, you just keep making my day. :D

I gave up posting in the 'Do I pass?' thread, simply because what I was being told, somewhat unkindly by some, does not reflect my reality..

Hmm, I might actually post a pic in that thread just to see what kind of comments I get this time around..  :icon_giggle:

Anon posted this in a thread I posted in the FtM forum.
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,113939.0.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,113939.0.html)
Before reading the post I looked at your profile picture and wondered how anyone could possibly see you as male, but then I realized the mistake. Congrats!

That tells me right there that maybe we need to post to the FtM thread since they've had some experience of what to look for from a male perspective. We're so conditioned to what to look for and possibly somewhat clouded in judgement. We could do the same for the guys.

duh.

i honestly don't get what you archieve from lying to people that they pass  ::)


you think you're nice but in reality you're not helping out. saying "no you don't pass" and giving advice would be more polite than making someone feel they pass when they don't.

I usually just don't post because whenever I tell someone they don't pass or point out something they could do to improve it, everyone gangs up on me and i'm a big mean evil person, it happened a few times before and i wasn't trying to be mean at all, i was just being honest... why is that thread called "Do I Pass?" if you're not supposed to say no? I try to be constructive and I don't think at any point I just said "no"

Quote from: Zarania on January 19, 2012, 06:00:50 AM
duh.

i honestly don't get what you archieve from lying to people that they pass  ::)


you think you're nice but in reality you're not helping out. saying "no you don't pass" and giving advice would be more polite than making someone feel they pass when they don't.

As it also was mentioned earlier it is VERY VERY subjective to go by pictures - and pictures only.
I have taken pics of myself and the look HORRIBLE! Then with different lighting and angle they "passable" I should think.
Then I go to "OUT" our local LGBT support centre and the reception t-g tells me she has a crush on me, and look CUTE......... now, I SAY!?!

I don't think she has any reason to butter me up. I mention it, because it is highly subjective - and by photograph alone, even more so.

Finally, if a photo does not seem to pass, the person herself may WELL PASS... so who is to say?

A very tricky situation in deed.

Axélle

Poor joeyD ,
Not looked in a mirror for a long time :) But i agree its hard to tell by a picture , could be looking super on pic and move like a gorilla. And its only the cover of the book we see! but we all do our first impression by it  >:-)

It is not very hard to judge looks from pictures at all, if looking for sex-characteristics and if the pics are cloear.

If it would not be possible, then there would be no point at all with the Do I pass-Thread as you could just say that as soon as someone looks like a guy in the pic,"It is just the photo".
The Ironic thing is, that if going by that logic, then it also have to go the other way around; That if people thinks that someone in a pic or series of pics do pass, then that judgement cannot be considered factual, as the passing effect may just be in the pics(That may be photoshopped, by the way).


What I am saying is, that there is no logic to say that you cannot judge pictures if theose pictures are clear enough, for if someone passes in a pic, then that person most likely also passes in real life( Things like voice and behaviour not included, ofcourse), and if someone do not pass in a clear pic or a series of pics, then it is the most likely that the person do not pass in real life either.


Think about it: If pics are not reliable, then why do Professional Plastic Surgeons use Image Computer programs?

Quote from: Zarania on January 19, 2012, 06:00:50 AM
duh.

i honestly don't get what you archieve from lying to people that they pass  ::)


you think you're nice but in reality you're not helping out. saying "no you don't pass" and giving advice would be more polite than making someone feel they pass when they don't.

I would have to agree.
This is what the old Timer Lynn Conway says on the issue of this;

QuoteThe issue of passing:

In the early stages of transition, most TS women worry a lot about how well they are going to "pass" after transition. An estimate of one's ability to pass is often a crucial factor in gauging the feasibility of transition. The early feminization effects from hormones and electrolysis and crossdressing can lead some women into being too optimistic about how they look. Any slight degree of feminization seems thrilling, and early in transition women often overestimate the objective reality of these initial, minor changes. Such women aren't helped by well-meaning friends who tell them that "they look great", when in fact they mean "you look OK for a guy made up as a woman". It would be much better if these women were given realistic feedback by more experienced transitioners, and encouraged to work hard on key things they need to fix.

Quote from: BlonT on January 21, 2012, 07:01:46 AM
Poor joeyD ,
Not looked in a mirror for a long time :) But i agree its hard to tell by a picture , could be looking super on pic and move like a gorilla. And its only the cover of the book we see! but we all do our first impression by it  >:-)

Hmm? I'm lost o.o

Joey, I believe they are referencing your comment in reply #18, so its not bad or anything.



And yeah, I see some issues with giving some false confidence. I can only picture them being emotionally crushed when they find out otherwise in the real world, it could drive them to withdraw unnecessarily.

Ah but there is a difference between saying you look Great and saying you pass.  This is why I think there should be a different approach to the Do I Pass thread.   

For example take a look at these pictures


(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.radaronline.com%2Fsites%2Fradaronline.com%2Ffiles%2Fimagecache%2F350width%2FPLUS-Model-Magazine-body-image.jpg&hash=96923f77a75ef1a57dd6eea3bb016a5589f584da)



If the woman on the right said "Do I look fat?"  I would say no.   If she said "Am I as skinny as the girl on the right"  I would also say no.

Both women are beautiful in their own way.  So I get upset when someone would look at the woman on the right and say,  "you are too fat"   Compared to what?   Compared to the woman on the left.   Or compared to herself?

When someone asks me if they Pass  I look at them critically.  I'll never tell someone that they pass if I don't think they really pass.

In the other thread someone lightly mentioned that the girls nose was something that caused her not to pass. IMO it was utterly ridiculous.  I know the poster didn't mean any harm.   But if you have things that you think are ugly then you will tend to be critical of people.  Others might not be so.   Look at my posts about make up. I think make up is atrocious sometimes.  That doesn't mean that if you wear make up you don't look good.

But to me it is aging and weird looking.  And I don't like it for me.  I also do not like overly done hair.   I like plain things and simple beauty.  That doesn't mean I don't think the Kardashian girls are drop dead gorgeous.

They are.  But it's not what I'd like to look like.

Hi Bishounen,
I do not share your confidence in pictures for being good enough passing clues.

Depending on lighting you can diminish e.g. a too prominent chin, or brow bossing, or even the size and appearance of one's nose.
Mahsa e.g. had a rather biggish nose but most all her pictures would not allow to see that at all. BTW, I did not think her nose was all that femme, as the rest of her features were, PLUS good make-up absolutely helped too.

This has nothing at all to do with photo-shop mods.

As far as the rest of appearance goes we can say really nothing either with regards to passing, like posture, walk, presentation, confidence, voice, tone of voice, and so on.

So "Do I pass" by some 2D pic(s) is a pretty dodgy enterprise.

If people see and hear me, I pass definitely better 80% maybe 90%?
If I'd post my best and "honest" pictures I would show brow-bossing, too big chin, too big a HEAD, slightly too big hands AND feet, too GREAT legs, too narrow hips and too wide shoulders with rather small breasts.
And then looking at my 90 deg. profile be one DEAD male-give-away.
These things all play together in a flash second re. passing, including gate, posture and presentation.
NO WAY, to judge any of these in a 'mug-shot'.

And as always --- YMMV,

Axélle
PS: I changed my avatar, now judge for yourself... I do not think it to be an 80 - 90% pass. Also do not really wear glasses. Those I wore (reading gasses) I needed to see what I was doing :-)

I actually posted there to prove a point last night. I ended up doing a before makeup and after with my new camera and got a few 'passes' from other members. The point I was trying to prove was you don't need to cake on the make-up, or be super-pretty to pass. A little make-up to enhance features goes a long way. And this was me with some facial hair. I know, brave aren't I? :P

Quote from: mixie on January 21, 2012, 11:40:47 AM
Ah but there is a difference between saying you look Great and saying you pass.  This is why I think there should be a different approach to the Do I Pass thread.   

For example take a look at these pictures


(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.radaronline.com%2Fsites%2Fradaronline.com%2Ffiles%2Fimagecache%2F350width%2FPLUS-Model-Magazine-body-image.jpg&hash=96923f77a75ef1a57dd6eea3bb016a5589f584da)



If the woman on the right said "Do I look fat?"  I would say no.   If she said "Am I as skinny as the girl on the right"  I would also say no.

Both women are beautiful in their own way.  So I get upset when someone would look at the woman on the right and say,  "you are too fat"   Compared to what?   Compared to the woman on the left.   Or compared to herself?

When someone asks me if they Pass  I look at them critically.  I'll never tell someone that they pass if I don't think they really pass.

In the other thread someone lightly mentioned that the girls nose was something that caused her not to pass. IMO it was utterly ridiculous.  I know the poster didn't mean any harm.   But if you have things that you think are ugly then you will tend to be critical of people.  Others might not be so.   Look at my posts about make up. I think make up is atrocious sometimes.  That doesn't mean that if you wear make up you don't look good.

But to me it is aging and weird looking.  And I don't like it for me.  I also do not like overly done hair.   I like plain things and simple beauty.  That doesn't mean I don't think the Kardashian girls are drop dead gorgeous.

They are.  But it's not what I'd like to look like.

And that is also the exact very reason why someone, for instance, that by others is considered to have "Gone overboard with surgery", is not automatically being nonpassable, as looking plastic and looking male is two completely different things aswell, yet many people use the term "Looking fake" as in actuality meaning "Looking male", which in itselft is a bit odd, given that there are a lot of fake looking Cis-females that nonetheless do not look anything else than Cis-females that have merely had a heck load of surgery- not Trannies.

And for the very same reasons, it does neither mean that "Natural" equals "Passing" either, and nor does "feminine".


Secondly, The previous attached quote from Conway's Site, did not intend the word "great" as in "Looking good" but as in "Looking female", as that was the context she was using the statement.

I have seen what she describes constantly myself and can attest to it, indeed.

But that's really the distinction.  Not all females are attractive.  When I see a beautiful person in the Do I Pass thread,  I'm looking to see if they look "female'  not "great."  Some do look gorgeous.  Others look "meh" but to me they pass.

It is patronizing to others to suggest that if I think someone passes,  I'm just being kind because you don't think they pass.


Taking the point about Calpernia and plastic women   I got to thinking last night when I saw Ru Paul's poster for Drag Race on the subway.   In the picture I kept wondering "Does Ru Paul pass?"   "What exactly does he/she look like"   To me he/she looks like a heightened woman.  A plastic doll.  Or to put it nicer a "Goddess"   beyond what it means to be an  "every day woman."  There are many people who rock this look.  Calpernia is one.  Madonna is  a Goddess  so is Lady Gaga.   Do I think they look GREAT!  Yep.  Do I think they look "female"  Yep.

But if you lined them up with a bunch of regular women and asked me to "clock" who I thought was transgender I'd pick out each one of them  right away.   I'd be clocking the cisgenders as well.

The same works with plain women.   If you lined up Glenn Close,  Rosie O Donnell,  Andrea James and say Kiera since she's being bold with a bunch of women.   And told me to guess who was trans and who was cis  I'd probably say Glenn Close was a transgendered woman.   And I'd be wrong. 


You have to be able to own your look.  It's not about comparing yourself to others.  It's about maximizing your look.

Funny true story

Years ago I emulated Annie Lennox.    I used to mimic this look all the time

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm3.static.flickr.com%2F2234%2F2343194580_5eabd45ca9.jpg&hash=72097fb8b9ea3ba83e62f369e0824ea93de61964)

I'd wear rice powder because my skin was so pale.  I had on basically a Kabuki mask of make up and I'd draw on dark eyebrows with black pencil.

One night I was practicing my make up in my room.   I went to the deli around the corner.   I had been drinking wine and goofing off listening to music.

When I went around the corner all the men in the deli were staring at me.   I though  "How fabulous I look!  I know it I rock it. "  I felt totally confident and drop dead gorgeous.

But when I started to leave I noticed in the mirror behind the counter that I had accidentally done my eyebrows with a BLUE pencil.    So here I thought I looked great and they were looking at me like a freak.  I was so tipsy I didn't know the difference.  I ran out and home and scrubbed my face off.  LOL

But had I left and not noticed I probably would have walked around the next day feeling so keen that I am this Goddess   LOL

Quote from: mixie on January 21, 2012, 12:33:59 PM
But that's really the distinction.  Not all females are attractive.  When I see a beautiful person in the Do I Pass thread,  I'm looking to see if they look "female'  not "great."  Some do look gorgeous.  Others look "meh" but to me they pass.

Agreed. :)
However I must ask out of curiousity; I have gotten the impression from the posts I have read of yours, that you have never really considered any MTF as being non-passing, in regards to actual facial features, only regerding makeup and/or "style", yes?
If that is correctly understood of me, then what is it in, for instance, a makeup that, to you, makes a T-person look male and not cis-female?

QuoteIt is patronizing to others to suggest that if I think someone passes,  I'm just being kind because you don't think they pass.

I do not mean it that way, not at all, however I do think that many people on a semi-subcounsious level very often tell someone that they pass to be kind and aid that persons self-esteem, which is fully understandable and in its basics good.
Mind you, this only applies when someone does this either knowingly or partly knowingly- Not if someone- for instance you- Truly DO think that someone really pass.

QuoteTaking the point about Calpernia and plastic women   I got to thinking last night when I saw Ru Paul's poster for Drag Race on the subway.   In the picture I kept wondering "Does Ru Paul pass?"   "What exactly does he/she look like"   To me he/she looks like a heightened woman.  A plastic doll.  Or to put it nicer a "Goddess"   beyond what it means to be an  "every day woman."  There are many people who rock this look.  Calpernia is one.  Madonna is  a Goddess  so is Lady Gaga.   Do I think they look GREAT!  Yep.  Do I think they look "female"  Yep.

But if you lined them up with a bunch of regular women and asked me to "clock" who I thought was transgender I'd pick out each one of them  right away.   I'd be clocking the cisgenders as well.

I agree. I actually thought about this phenomena just the other evening, and what, exactly, that it is that makes a Trans-experienced person being able to clock a trans-person although that person genuinly look absolutely great and "Perfect".
I came to the conclusion that it is something in the Aura or "manners" that many T-persons have, that just screams "Trans"(Not in a BAD way, mind you), although the physical apparence itself is amazing.
What do you think about this suggestion? That it is something in the "Nature" or "Aura" or whatever toi call it, rather than actual physical apparence?
I do not really mean a acted "Poofy" behaviour, but a behaviour that to the transperson is fully part of their identity.

QuoteThe same works with plain women.   If you lined up Glenn Close,  Rosie O Donnell,  Andrea James and say Kiera since she's being bold with a bunch of women.   And told me to guess who was trans and who was cis  I'd probably say Glenn Close was a transgendered woman.   And I'd be wrong.

Agreed.

QuoteYou have to be able to own your look.  It's not about comparing yourself to others.  It's about maximizing your look.

Very true. :)

QuoteFunny true story

Years ago I emulated Annie Lennox.    I used to mimic this look all the time

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm3.static.flickr.com%2F2234%2F2343194580_5eabd45ca9.jpg&hash=72097fb8b9ea3ba83e62f369e0824ea93de61964)

I'd wear rice powder because my skin was so pale.  I had on basically a Kabuki mask of make up and I'd draw on dark eyebrows with black pencil.

One night I was practicing my make up in my room.   I went to the deli around the corner.   I had been drinking wine and goofing off listening to music.

When I went around the corner all the men in the deli were staring at me.   I though  "How fabulous I look!  I know it I rock it. "  I felt totally confident and drop dead gorgeous.

But when I started to leave I noticed in the mirror behind the counter that I had accidentally done my eyebrows with a BLUE pencil.    So here I thought I looked great and they were looking at me like a freak.  I was so tipsy I didn't know the difference.  I ran out and home and scrubbed my face off.  LOL

But had I left and not noticed I probably would have walked around the next day feeling so keen that I am this Goddess   LOL

:laugh:   
But hey, are you absolutely sure they did not think you were gorgeous anyway?

Quote from: Bishounen on January 21, 2012, 12:53:31 PM
Agreed. :)
However I must ask out of curiousity; I have gotten the impression from the posts I have read of yours, that you have never really considered any MTF as being non-passing, in regards to actual facial features, only regerding makeup and/or "style", yes?
If that is correctly understood of me, then what is it in, for instance, a makeup that, to you, makes a T-person look male and not cis-female?

I do not mean it that way, not at all, however I do think that many people on a semi-subcounsious level very often tell someone that they pass to be kind and aid that persons self-esteem, which is fully understandable and in its basics good.
Mind you, this only applies when someone does this either knowingly or partly knowingly- Not if someone- for instance you- Truly DO think that someone really pass.

No.  Not true.  I have stated that if a woman has several facial features that look masculine that she will not pass.  For example a strong brow and a five o'clock shadow.  That would be a flag.

But what I am saying is that if you take that woman and put lots of make up on her,  she'll pass even worse.

I think the biggest problem that I have seen is trying cover up masculine features.   For example if you have an adams apple and you wear lots of neck scarfs  I think it would stand out to me more than if you just had an adams apple but lots of feminine features.

Take women who do have adams apples  like the hideous Ann Coulter.   She never covers it up.  She just ignores it.   By wearing scarfs to cover it up I would think she's actually drawing attention to it.

A good way to think of it is wrinkles on the skin.  If a woman wears make up to cover up the wrinkles on the skin  9 times out of 10 she's just going to make them stand out even more.

Seems to me that people think that lavishing on make up is a way of covering up male features.  To me you just look like a guy with lots of make up on. 

I think passing has to start with the inside.  I think this stage of development is what comes naturally to a cisgendered girl.   You go through puberty, suffer the hell of high school.   Try to figure out how to make it work.

Usually that involves ignoring your worst features and playing up your good features.   It also involves creating a "look." 

Take Rumor Willis.   What is she supposed to do with her "potato head"  She's teased about it all the time.  But she's got a choice.  She can do plastic surgery or she can just let it go,  accept what she's got.  Emphasize the best and work on the rest.

Take Kelly Osbourne.  We've watched her transformation.  She figured out how to work her best features.  She will never be able to get rid of her stocky legs.  The poor thing is doomed.  She's said that most people are shocked to see how petite she is in person because the media has made such a big deal.

She looks very beautiful to me now because she's found her groove.  But her stages of growth are well documented.

She could have gone her mothers route and had loads of plastic surgery etc.  But the more natural she's become (even with purple grey hair)  what makes her beautiful now is that she's confident in what she has to work with.

To me the "Do I Pass" thread is useless if we don't know the kind of look and groove the other person is going for.

Why I tend to object in that thread is when people tell others  Do your hair this way, grow it out,  put on make up,  get a corset,  wear a push up bra  etc etc etc.

These things can help you with your appearance.   But the way you will be a woman is to just BE a woman.  I think the bigger problem is years of being afraid to just be the woman you are because you are afraid that there is something wrong with doing that.

To me that is the obstacle.  Not the appearance.   If you have spent years pretending to be a man because your body is male.  You have also spent years not being free as a woman.  You have been trapped in your own body.   

If a transgendered woman could just open the door and walk through the streets being the woman she is,  if nothing would stop her,  no one would stop and stare, no one would question it.  I don't think she'd spend time trying to be a woman.  Because she would already be one.


So when you say that I seem to think everyone passes.   I guess a bit yes.   Not everyone is pretty.  But everyone looks like a woman to me.

Then again,  the world doesn't operate that way. 


There is a difference between offering feedback that is helpful and telling someone they don't pass.  IMO

Quote from: Axélle-Michélle on January 21, 2012, 11:56:25 AM
Hi Bishounen,
I do not share your confidence in pictures for being good enough passing clues.

Depending on lighting you can diminish e.g. a too prominent chin, or brow bossing, or even the size and appearance of one's nose.
Mahsa e.g. had a rather biggish nose but most all her pictures would not allow to see that at all. BTW, I did not think her nose was all that femme, as the rest of her features were, PLUS good make-up absolutely helped too.

This has nothing at all to do with photo-shop mods.

As far as the rest of appearance goes we can say really nothing either with regards to passing, like posture, walk, presentation, confidence, voice, tone of voice, and so on.

So "Do I pass" by some 2D pic(s) is a pretty dodgy enterprise.

If people see and hear me, I pass definitely better 80% maybe 90%?
If I'd post my best and "honest" pictures I would show brow-bossing, too big chin, too big a HEAD, slightly too big hands AND feet, too GREAT legs, too narrow hips and too wide shoulders with rather small breasts.
And then looking at my 90 deg. profile be one DEAD male-give-away.
These things all play together in a flash second re. passing, including gate, posture and presentation.
NO WAY, to judge any of these in a 'mug-shot'.

And as always --- YMMV,

Axélle
PS: I changed my avatar, now judge for yourself... I do not think it to be an 80 - 90% pass. Also do not really wear glasses. Those I wore (reading gasses) I needed to see what I was doing :-)

Yep.  You look like a middle aged Swedish woman.   


Oh one more thing,  do you know since I joined here.  I've started staring at women trying to clock them.   Then I catch myself wondering if the woman really is a transgendered woman,  I'm going to make her feel really uncomfortable.  There was a new waitress at the restaurant I go to.  She was tall thin and very androgynous looking.  No make up, short scraggly hair thrown up into a bun.  I found myself trying to hear her say something to see if she had a female voice.

No no no.  Going around trying to clock people is bad news.

Quote from: mixie on January 21, 2012, 02:23:31 PM

If a transgendered woman could just open the door and walk through the streets being the woman she is,  if nothing would stop her,  no one would stop and stare, no one would question it.  I don't think she'd spend time trying to be a woman.  Because she would already be one.

I keep saying this, at least 50% of passing is knowing you do. It's all about self confidence.

Quote from: mixie on January 21, 2012, 03:22:48 PM

Yep.  You look like a middle aged Swedish woman.   


Oh one more thing,  do you know since I joined here.  I've started staring at women trying to clock them.   Then I catch myself wondering if the woman really is a transgendered woman,  I'm going to make her feel really uncomfortable.  There was a new waitress at the restaurant I go to.  She was tall thin and very androgynous looking.  No make up, short scraggly hair thrown up into a bun.  I found myself trying to hear her say something to see if she had a female voice.

No no no.  Going around trying to clock people is bad news.

Honey - guess what happens to "us", being stuck in the middle of our XGender situation.
I wish I could switch it off as you say :-)
It is some sort of heightened awareness – and just as well not EVERYONE is suffering it.
Else HOW would pass?! Madonna? No!
The frump with the old shopping bag? YES!

Swedish middle-aged (oldie :-) WOMAN!... now really?
Check my tummy and legs - then you'll REALLY get confused and want to stop me in the mall, as it happens by GGs rattled out my legs!
Then you hear my gender neutral voice... say no more hon... it this a Marlene Dietrich the elder, reinvented? He he.

Thanks,
Axélle

Some people around here say I pass.. And some say I don't..

But the reality is, that in my day to day life, I do.. I'm not sure if it's because I really do or people are simply being polite.. Even my voice doesn't give me any issues.. The only thing 'wrong' with my voice is the pitch...

So my conclusion the the whole 'Yes, you pass. Ummm, no you don't.' debate is that it's all rather subjective..  And dependant on all sorts of external factors...

Quote from: kelly_aus on January 22, 2012, 03:11:39 AM
Some people around here say I pass.. And some say I don't..

But the reality is, that in my day to day life, I do.. I'm not sure if it's because I really do or people are simply being polite.. Even my voice doesn't give me any issues.. The only thing 'wrong' with my voice is the pitch...

So my conclusion the the whole 'Yes, you pass. Ummm, no you don't.' debate is that it's all rather subjective..  And dependant on all sorts of external factors...

kelly, and just so right, your are.

My next avatar in red top, would not be a pass exactly by me either. Just have washed my hair, therefor the cow-lick - and I picked the best of 4 pix I took just now.

If I go out and do my thing, I 'seem' to pass --- maybe just by the grace and tolerance of others, but I guess that just will have to do then, won't it.

Axélle
PS: pictures suck big time when your skin gets old... grrr

The thing is Axelle  you could pass or you couldn't pass.   If I may use you as an example  (And btw I'm really happy you started posting pix!)  If I saw you on the street I wouldn't say  "wow that woman is gorgeous!:"   But at the same time I wouldn't say "hold on.............wait is that a man?"   What I would think is absolutely nothing.   If you asked me to look at you and judge you I'd say that you looked like a confident middle aged (well a wee bit older) blonde woman.   And in my mind the picture would be that you were probably very attractive in your younger years.  You probably gained a bit of weight (not much) and relaxed in worrying about your looks.   But I would not ever think you looked like a man.  There's a confidence in your pix that registers you as a bit of a "character" to me.  A funny robust woman that is probably strong willed and kind hearted.


If you TOLD me you were a transgender woman,  then of course I'd see it. This is the problem.


Here's part of what my eye does to help you all understand what I mean.

When I first see the picture I am drawn to the eyes and eyebrows.  Then I sort of acknowledge the hair which I agree is really slicked back and not as feminine.   But still I register as female.  I stay on the eyes cheek and nose area.   

But then when I go  "Wait what is masculine"   I drop my eyes down to the jaw and neck areas.  I also gauge the shoulders.    So I can feel a shift between when I'm looking at you as a female and looking at you as a male.

This is the same thing that happens in the do I pass thread.   For example I think Kiera's glasses go a long way to helping her create a look.  She looks more female to me with them on than off.  When she does her eye make up she passes.  Now granted she's got the stashe in some pix so I know she's growing it out for electrolosys.    But I would not clock Kiera at all.   Same with kelly-au.

Could I tell that these women were transgendered women,  yes if you asked me to.  The same way I can with Andrea James and Calpernia.   

But I think you could clock masculine features on many women.   So it isn't a good way to do it.  My way is   "If I saw this woman behind the counter at a store would I go "Oh wow totally transgener"  and most of the time the answer is no."

Quote from: Axélle-Michélle on January 22, 2012, 06:27:28 AM


If I go out and do my thing, I 'seem' to pass --- maybe just by the grace and tolerance of others, but I guess that just will have to do then, won't it.

I hear ya. I depend upon the grace and tolerance of others. I gotta be me, no matter the pass factor.

I realize this is late in the game for this thread, but I have to ask what is passing?

I'm out at work; it's common knowledge that while I'm Connie now, I used to be David. No one bats an eye when I use the restroom and they know I'm pre-op. Does this count as passing?

Does it count as passing at all when people who knew me as David and now know me as Connie treat me according to my feminine presentation? Or, does this not count as passing as they know what I "really" am?

Passing refers to being seen by the general public as female based on your appearance, voice, etc.

Quote from: Keaira on January 22, 2012, 09:52:11 PM
Passing refers to being seen by the general public as female based on your appearance, voice, etc.

Understood. Thanks.

I know I'm new but I've noticed this as well.. I looked through the "Do I pass thread" and it seemed more like a self esteem builder thread than an honest one.  I'd expect honesty I can look in the mirror be and mostly objective but when people post and haven't even started mones and have a 5 of clock shadow and everyones telling them they pass you're only setting them up for embarassment.

Comments like "I'll never tell anyone they don't pass" and "were all women" are unhelpful and although admirable traits have no place in a thread titled " Do I Pass?".  Maybe make a new thread for " Tell me im pretty " or some other nonsense but I'd appreciate the honesty and I wouldn't lie to other people so I'd hope they do the same for me.

Quote from: EmmaM on January 22, 2012, 02:08:21 PM
I hear ya. I depend upon the grace and tolerance of others. I gotta be me, no matter the pass factor.

Honey you look sexy/hot with some 'chiselled' looks, nice!- I'm a Lesbian, I can TELL :-)

Axélle

As I said before, if you want the truth, you have to go out into the world to get it.

For all the posts suggesting I change my appearance this way and that so that I pass, it didn't matter too much! I'm passing. Not more than 3 hours ago I was at the supermarket checkout and the guy bagging our groceries asked me and my wife, "Do you Ladies need any help?"
I don't claim to be the prettiest girl to have graced God's green earth, but I'm pretty darned happy that I'm being seen for who I really am. And I didn't need a beanie/toque to help me.

Quote from: Keaira on January 22, 2012, 11:16:10 PM
As I said before, if you want the truth, you have to go out into the world to get it.

SOOO True.

Go to a food court in the mall on a Saturday afternoon. Youll get all the truth you'll ever need :P

Quote from: Annah on January 22, 2012, 11:53:18 PM
SOOO True.

Go to a food court in the mall on a Saturday afternoon. Youll get all the truth you'll ever need :P

This is also true. :D
Just be prepared to be judged by the general population.

Quote from: Keaira on January 23, 2012, 12:13:15 AM
This is also true. :D
Just be prepared to be judged by the general population.

The judgement I get from the general populace is often kinder than I get around here and other forums..

Quote from: kelly_aus on January 23, 2012, 12:46:16 AM
The judgement I get from the general populace is often kinder than I get around here and other forums..

I can believe that. But there again, it comes down to being able to actually see you, your mannerisms, etc. versus a single photo, and that's all. Some people dont photograph well. I think I look so much better in the mirror and less than that in a photo.

Quote from: kelly_aus on January 23, 2012, 12:46:16 AM
The judgement I get from the general populace is often kinder than I get around here and other forums..

In my opinion, yes and no. The general populace is just as bad as some of the comments here.

I so wish I was brave enough to post a pic in that thread, not a single person here could claim honestly that I pass. ;)

Sorry in an odd mood right now, trying my best to find humor to keep from crying really, been a rough weekend. The comment about the 5 o'clock shadow passing and the thought of someone saying I passed as an ego boost was just hilarious. I have a full goatee. Pretty thick. :P

Quote from: Keaira on January 23, 2012, 01:01:54 AM
[clipped]
Some people dont photograph well. I think I look so much better in the mirror and less than that in a photo.

Gosh, you tell ME honey!
I think in photographs I always look as stone old and as butch as it can get, ever!
In the mirror I do fairly OK.
In certain lighting I look more mummified then I'd be still allowed to LIVE! Quite unbelievable the difference. Is it digital photography?!?

No idea what to do - other then save up for a facelift, FFS, etc.

Axélle

Quote from: Axélle-Michélle on January 23, 2012, 04:00:04 AM
Gosh, you tell ME honey!
I think in photographs I always look as stone old and as butch as it can get, ever!
In the mirror I do fairly OK.
In certain lighting I look more mummified then I'd be still allowed to LIVE! Quite unbelievable the difference. Is it digital photography?!?

No idea what to do - other then save up for a facelift, FFS, etc.

Axélle

Honestly it can be a number of factors. As a computer modeler I've learned that lighting is key. So it is in the real world. another thing can be lens distortion. I've noticed that my iPod camera makes me look a little slimmer. Another factor could be that  we don't see these photos in 3 dimension like we would if we were looking at one another. But one important thing to remember is our brains tell us to like our appearance. Its somewhat passive. Like how you suddenly notice a wrinkle that has in fact been there a while. Or, to use myself as an example, I started liking my hair again when for the longest time its been my biggest issue. I discovered I have hair regrowth which caused my hairline to look more appealing to me when that new hair was about half an inch long.

IPod camera's don't compensate for the yellow light that compact florescent bulbs can give off. which is why some photos of me look really yellow.

Thanks for the insights hon,
I'm sure others will appreciate it also.

Hug,
Axélle

You're welcome ^_^

Quote from: kelly_aus on January 23, 2012, 12:46:16 AM
The judgement I get from the general populace is often kinder than I get around here and other forums..

Ditto on that Sister. I've been called a man on this forum many more times in 6 months than I have in RL in the last 5 years.

Quote from: JenJen2011 on December 16, 2011, 03:17:02 PM
Recently I've been reading posts from several girls telling other girls they "totally pass", "definitely pass", "you look all woman", etc and then I look at the pics they're referring to and perhaps something is wrong with my eyes but I just don't see it.

I don't want ya'll to take this the wrong way. I'm not trying to be mean or make any of the girls feel bad, I just don't think it's right that we lie to them. I wonder if these girls are saying it just to be nice? Or maybe my transdar is too strong and I know what to look for? Like some people tell me I pass but I don't see it.

Now, some of these girls are totally pretty but pretty=/=passable. So, maybe they're mixing the two?

I don't know. Maybe someone can enlighten me a bit.

A lot of people try and be politically correct rather than downright honest. They are also worried they might upset someone or undermine their confidence which may be fragile anyway. My close TS friend has always been pretty ruthless with me and used to continually criticise and rip me to pieces about the way I looked and would be totally honest if I didn't pass. Sometimes the put downs would hurt really bad but it did help me to improve and be more aware of myself.

From your profile avatar picture Jen, you look a million times better than I could ever look, so your problems are far less than mine!

Quote from: Naturally Blonde on January 24, 2012, 09:32:19 AMFrom your profile avatar picture Jen, you look a million times better than I could ever look, so your problems are far less than mine!

I don't know if you're referring to the one up now but if you are, that isn't me. That's Britney Spears, lol. The one i had before was of me so if you're referring to that one, thank you. I recently had full FFS tho so I look different now. ;)

Quote from: Haven on January 22, 2012, 10:59:42 PM
I know I'm new but I've noticed this as well.. I looked through the "Do I pass thread" and it seemed more like a self esteem builder thread than an honest one.  I'd expect honesty I can look in the mirror be and mostly objective but when people post and haven't even started mones and have a 5 of clock shadow and everyones telling them they pass you're only setting them up for embarassment.

Comments like "I'll never tell anyone they don't pass" and "were all women" are unhelpful and although admirable traits have no place in a thread titled " Do I Pass?".  Maybe make a new thread for " Tell me im pretty " or some other nonsense but I'd appreciate the honesty and I wouldn't lie to other people so I'd hope they do the same for me.

Not telling someone they don't pass, is not the same thing as telling everyone they DO pass.  There is a HUGE difference.

And I think that needs to be acknowledged.  What's really happening in a lot of the comments is the projection of dysphoria.   Not actual honesty.

If I see a chubby woman and she asks me  "Do I look skinny"  I'm thinking that she has a dysphoria to begin with.

I'll give you an honest example.  I do not look like most of my sisters.   I am honestly much more attractive than my sisters.   When I'd come to visit them at home their friends would meet me and say "She's your SISTER?"  and it was pretty obvious what they meant.

One year my three sisters started a conversation about it.  And I said to one of my sisters "Actually you and I have the same facial structure,  you're just heavier than me."  And she flipped out   "What are you calling me FAT?"  And I got really annoyed.  My sister is so fat that her gut hangs half way down to her knees.   Of course she's fat.  I got annoyed that she wasn't willing to be honest.

I am one of the most honest people you will ever meet.   I don't coddle or try to tell less than the truth.  Part of it is that I am an INTP and I tend to be completely logical in my perception of things.  It's gotten me into trouble with female friends for years.

At the same time,  those female friends who know me a long time appreciate that they can always come to me in honesty.    So they know from all the times that I was seemingly a witch to them  that I was so honest.  They can trust me when they are insecure about something because they know I will tell them the truth.

I've had several women on here PM me and ask me questions and I've been honest every time.  Not always saying "YES YOU PASS" but rather I give constructive criticism or whatnot.

It is patronizing to suggest that because another person has a different opinion than you, they are "making nice."  Not so.   I just don't judge people by the same shallow standards as other people.

You mention "Tell me I'm pretty."  And fwammo that's exactly what I've pointed out all along.  Not all women are attractive.  If you look like a woman I'll tell you.  I might not say "Hey yeah great you look like a really ugly woman!  Awesome!"   But passing is passing.

At the same time.  I have not seen any ugly women yet so far.  I've seen normal women.   Not necessarily goddesses but regular normal women.


And if I may.   As a cisgendered woman  I resent womanhood being shoved into the shoe box of looking "Good enough"  because I am a woman no matter how bad I look.  If I gain weight  I'm a woman.  If I get into an accident tomorrow and mangle my face.  I'm a woman.  If I can't have kids  anymore I'm a woman.  If no man ever looks at me with sexual attraction again.  I'm a woman.  I'm a woman because I'm a woman.  Not because other people tell me I'm good enough.

Quote from: mixie on January 24, 2012, 10:04:11 PM
Not telling someone they don't pass, is not the same thing as telling everyone they DO pass.  There is a HUGE difference.

And I think that needs to be acknowledged.  What's really happening in a lot of the comments is the projection of dysphoria.   Not actual honesty.

If I see a chubby woman and she asks me  "Do I look skinny"  I'm thinking that she has a dysphoria to begin with.

I'll give you an honest example.  I do not look like most of my sisters.   I am honestly much more attractive than my sisters.   When I'd come to visit them at home their friends would meet me and say "She's your SISTER?"  and it was pretty obvious what they meant.

I'm just going to do a partial quote to save space.

I never made any indication of "Not telling someone they don't pass, is not the same thing as telling everyone they DO pass."  Nor do I believe if someone has a differing opinion than me do I think they're making nice.   There are some people who tell the truth, but to say that i'm patronizing them is going a little far.  The example I gave of someone with a beard asking if they pass i think fits the bill pretty well.  For the most part, if there is any indication of facial hair it will ruin your chances of passing, that is not my opinion.  Women do not have visible facial hair, yes they do have some if your looking really really close but they aren't getting clocked for it.

I wasn't specifically targeting anyone with my comment of people playing nice, so you really should'nt have felt any need to defend yourself I'm sure you are an honest person.  I agree that being pretty is not the same as passing, I have no problem with that.  Someone could be super unattractive to me but still pass as a woman so i wouldn't tell them they didn't pass cause they do.  I'm not confusing the two things, I understand people will have different opinions on the matter and obviously my transdar is gone up exponentially from research so I'm aware of that when i note if someone passes or not.  I'm far less critical than I probably sound, but you can't ignore that most people are sugar coating it.

Being pretty does not equal passing.

Asking do i pass? Is not the same as "tell me i pass".  I'm all for helping people build their self esteem and unless i'm specifically asked if a person passes I'll compliment them and help build them up but if they honestly want my opinion I'm going to give it to them.  You're only doing a disservice to them by sugarcoating, im not saying be mean but tell them the truth then be constructive.

In my art classes when I turn in designs I dont want a pat on the back, hell most of the time that pisses me off if that's all a teacher gives me If I ask for critique or if my piece looks good I want honesty otherwise its only goin to hurt when someone IS honest with me.  I know this analogy is a stretch but I feel it's somewhat similar.


"And if I may.   As a cisgendered woman  I resent womanhood being shoved into the shoe box of looking "Good enough"  because I am a woman no matter how bad I look.  If I gain weight  I'm a woman.  If I get into an accident tomorrow and mangle my face.  I'm a woman.  If I can't have kids  anymore I'm a woman.  If no man ever looks at me with sexual attraction again.  I'm a woman.  I'm a woman because I'm a woman.  Not because other people tell me I'm good enough."

You are a woman no matter how bad you look, however you also aren't a m2f trying to pass asking in a "Do I pass thread".  So to be honest, none of this applies to you.

Perfect example.   I'll post something just to show you what I mean.   I took a photography class, so I'm assuming you'll get it.   And it was a one credit course that I busted my but for and turned in a series of photographs. 

The instructor took my portfolio and threw out half the pictures as garbage.  He said "This is no good, no good, no good, no good " etc.  And I'm not a photographer.  But I was sitting in on a class with MFA students.   And he wasn't being mean.  He was being "honest."    I'll post below the pictures he tossed.   And for me I wasn't offended or upset.  Because I'm not a photographer I took it as constructive criticism.  But the other photographers came up to me and said that they actually thought the pictures he said were garabage,  we good.   REALLY GOOD.   So who is right.

What do you think of the pictures I am posting?


(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/29462_391637653185_563013185_3954258_2005313_n.jpg)


(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/29462_391637663185_563013185_3954260_2135308_n.jpg)


(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/photos-ak-snc1/v316/13/122/563013185/n563013185_728440_2782.jpg)


These aren't "Perfect pictures."  He was tossing them for technical reasons.  But others said they were interesting and intriguing pictures.  They didn't care if the technical aspects were spot on.

This is the same thing about passing.  Some women look intriguing and interesting.   Even with a mustache.   And if you don't know a woman who has a mustache you must not have ever met an older Italian lady.  It's not so cut and dry.

If you nail someone to the wall because they are not "technically perfect" what are you really saying.  What does passing "really mean."   That's what I don't understand.

Your example of photography doesn't really fit.  I have the same thing in art, instructor vs students.  Most of the time instructor is right, and your classmates are the ones who are wrong so not really a good example.  ( of course exceptions apply )  Also I'm done debating this your inserting made up statements now, i've repeated over and over they dont have to be perfect or pretty. 

Quote from: mixie on January 24, 2012, 10:46:30 PMIf you nail someone to the wall because they are not "technically perfect" what are you really saying.  What does passing "really mean."   That's what I don't understand.

Passing means being able to use a women's washroom without getting screamed at. It means not being hassled on the street. It means not missing out on a job 'cause they think you might make people "uncomfortable." It means safety, security, and often just plain sanity to be able to look in the mirror and see "female" looking back.

I pass. I pass in the way that I never have to worry about being outed by my face or my body or my voice. And I know exactly how incredibly privileged that makes me. Being trans* can be ->-bleeped-<-ing scary, and being visibly trans* can be just downright dangerous depending where you live - whether that means direct physical harm, or just the complete inability to ever get a job again in your life. Passing isn't a bloody joke.

That thread on the other hand? That is a joke. Passing isn't a picture. It doesn't work that way. And pretending they have any meaning isn't just dumb, it's dangerous. Make an advice thread, sure. Have the fabulous thread for self-esteem building, awesome. But don't bloody ask if you pass in a pic. Everyone who has said "you pass" in that thread, for whatever reason, isn't being honest or just doesn't understand what passing actually is.

Passing is that thing that happens out in the world walking around. And everyone finds out for themselves.

Quote from: Sarah7 on January 24, 2012, 11:42:17 PM
Passing means being able to use a women's washroom without getting screamed at. It means not being hassled on the street. It means not missing out on a job 'cause they think you might make people "uncomfortable." It means safety, security, and often just plain sanity to be able to look in the mirror and see "female" looking back.

I pass. I pass in the way that I never have to worry about being outed by my face or my body or my voice. And I know exactly how incredibly privileged that makes me. Being trans* can be ->-bleeped-<-ing scary, and being visibly trans* can be just downright dangerous depending where you live - whether that means direct physical harm, or just the complete inability to ever get a job again in your life. Passing isn't a bloody joke.

That thread on the other hand? That is a joke. Passing isn't a picture. It doesn't work that way. And pretending they have any meaning isn't just dumb, it's dangerous. Make an advice thread, sure. Have the fabulous thread for self-esteem building, awesome. But don't bloody ask if you pass in a pic. Everyone who has said "you pass" in that thread, for whatever reason, isn't being honest or just doesn't understand what passing actually is.

Passing is that thing that happens out in the world walking around. And everyone finds out for themselves.

This I agree with.  So what is the point of the thread?  We all know that you can't tell if someone passes by a photograph.  You can't tell ANYTHING by a photograph.   Except if a person looks good in a photograph.  Period the end.

Ha, seems all 'got it now' ?! Great!

You can say that a PICTURE passes - if you honest, and that still be your own personal opinion. Period.

It is NOT at all the same to assume if the picture passes, that the person will. Not by a far shot.

That person may or may not pass and depending on her TOTAL presentation AND actually her mind-set! :-)

BTW, there will be cis-woman, AND cis-men that will not pass either, ever thought about THAT?


Kiss, kiss,
Axélle

Quote from: Haven on January 24, 2012, 11:19:35 PM
Your example of photography doesn't really fit.  I have the same thing in art, instructor vs students.  Most of the time instructor is right, and your classmates are the ones who are wrong so not really a good example.  ( of course exceptions apply )  Also I'm done debating this your inserting made up statements now, i've repeated over and over they dont have to be perfect or pretty. 

Art is subjective anyway. Who's to say what good art or bad art is? I got bad grades in my High School art class, But I like what I create.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi118.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo98%2FMiriTekker%2Fforthekids.jpg&hash=169ff4d39bc1e920975adcf4d55736ccf86c598b)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi118.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo98%2FMiriTekker%2FVgerwallppr.jpg&hash=3490273e9a3643e2e0511df5123ae6f3cb155247)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi118.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo98%2FMiriTekker%2FPortfolio%2Fbop.jpg&hash=2ca7d0d7f6f095cfabb803ffe3032a2074431071)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi118.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo98%2FMiriTekker%2FPortfolio%2Fsf_10copy.jpg&hash=003a590e6531e2490169d10a6ad3fb573d67556d)

Art is subjective, if your not in commercial art classes being taught to sell it lol.  Also, she said she wasn't a photographer but was in a photography class so I assume they would hold them to some standard.

Quote from: Haven on January 25, 2012, 12:41:36 AM
Art is subjective, if your not in commercial art classes being taught to sell it lol.  Also, she said she wasn't a photographer but was in a photography class so I assume they would hold them to some standard.

Passing is subjective.   You are the one who brought art into the conversation in the first place.  Now that it's panned out with a different perspective you want to shut it down?

It's a perfect example.  What is constructive criticism and what is an opinion.  My full stop on someone not passing is facial hair.  If I see facial hair obviously they don't pass.  But I've seen a few people on here with mustaches. If you don't know that women do sometimes have mustaches then you are really unaware.

I'm still wanting to know what "Passing" is supposed to mean.  I might say someone is passing here in a photograph but would never suggest they roll into a hick town and try to pick up a guy.

Again it is patronizing to suggest that if other people don't agree with you that they are "lying" and "making nice."


You've made statements twice in this thread that you then try to back away from.  No worries,  life is complicated.   We all do that from time to time.

I disagree, if passing was subjective it wouldn't be an issue.  I brought art up to make a point, you can't distort my example to use it on your side then say I brought it up.  I'm not shutting it down, there is a difference in making art for fun and trying to sell art for say walmart or target ads or something.   Passing, if being seen as the gender to wish to be seen as.  If your saying they pass, why can't they roll into a hick town to pick up a guy? By your account they look female, you'd get someone shot with your ideological way of approaching it.   Once again, i will repeat for the last time I am not saying if someone disagrees with me that they are playing nice I'm merely stating that it does occur in these threads at times. 

I've made no statements I wish to withdraw from, I stand by everything I've said.

I'll also do you a favor, since you keep responding without reading anything I'm saying.

====================================================

If I've offended you, just say so don't ignore everything I say while trying to claim you have some sort of point.  You're picking and choosing things i say, stretching them out of context and putting words in my mouth.  I understand people get their feelings hurt and can't think rationally so I'll forgive you, just take a break for the night we can continue tomorrow.

====================================================

I don't see anything wrong in anyone posting pictures of themselves, it's wonderful seeing the incredible changes that hrt can produce, but of course, at the end of the day, it's out in the real world that counts.  But everyone knows that, I think it's quite patronizing to assume that guys and girls posting pictures aren't aware of this.  Why can't we be happy for them?

Also, it is damn important in society to be seen as either a woman or a man, whether we like it or not. There are those who are very comfortable being gender benders, and more power to them, but most people are not like that. If you want to make it in mainstream society, eg: work in conventional places , go where you please without fear of harassment or exclusion, well you've got to try everything possible to pass as your target gender, in appearance, dress, voice and mannerisms. End of story.  :)

Quote from: mixie on January 25, 2012, 12:50:51 AM

It's a perfect example.  What is constructive criticism and what is an opinion.  My full stop on someone not passing is facial hair.  If I see facial hair obviously they don't pass.  But I've seen a few people on here with mustaches. If you don't know that women do sometimes have mustaches then you are really unaware.

Aww. * girl with facial hair* But I get called Ma'am and Lady quite a bit now. :P

One thing people don't mention is passing is a lot of trial and error too. I highly doubt anyone was totally in the closet and one day walk into the world 100% passing. It took me several years of living full time to really get my confidence up and "find my groove". I don't see that thread (that I would never post in myself) as being any more 'dangerous' than someone going to the mall to test their pass-ability. Passing IMHO doesn't have a whole lot to do with your looks, it comes from within.

Quote from: Stephe on January 23, 2012, 10:07:08 PM
Ditto on that Sister. I've been called a man on this forum many more times in 6 months than I have in RL in the last 5 years.

that means NOTHING.

if i see someone clothing theirselves as woman, will i call them sir or ma'am?

ma'am ofcourse, im not an ->-bleeped-<-, i can see that this person is transgender and i dont want to make HER feel bad.

BUT if she'd ask me.. do you think i look like an average woman? i'd say no. i might be an ->-bleeped-<- then but she wanted to hear the truth so i wouldn't lie to her.

Haven is "unfortunately" correct- Passing is not about subjectivity. It can be to an extent, but on the overall, visual Passing is about facial symmetry, not looking pretty or resembling a female celebrity with male features.
There are a lot of trannies that look very pretty and even beautiful and yet is clockable because of their facial features, no matter how much the people that want to boost transsexual self esteem(Bless them) wishes that such is not the case. But, it is.

Outdraft:

QuoteFacial Feminization Surgery (FFS) and
Male and Female Faces
There are basic differences between male and female faces, but the degree of masculinity or femininity varies. Females have a more pointed chin and less nasal prominence, for example. The forehead differs in the areas of the brows and the mid forehead, and the skull's shape affects the drape and contour of the skin. No particular feature makes a face look more male or female. Instead, it is the number of masculine or feminine features that characterizes the face. Below are differences between male and female faces to help guide those exploring facial feminization.

    Overall Shape
    An attractive female face tends to be heart shaped. It has rounded corners from the hairline down to a single point at the chin. Male faces have a more square appearance and an "M" shaped hairline coming down to a wide, square cornered jaw at the bottom. The lower third of the male face is usually longer because of a long top lip and tall chin. In profile, the female face tends to be flat while the male forehead slopes backwards, with the lower half of the face protruding forward.
    Hairline
    The male hairline is usually higher than the female's and tends to have an "M" shape that recedes at the temples.
    Forehead
    This is one of the more apparent gender markers. The bone ridge running across the forehead above the eyes, known as brow bossing, is more pronounced in males. Females have almost no discernable brow bossing because their foreheads are more rounded with a fairly flat front. In profile, female foreheads are more vertical instead of backward sloping.
    Eyebrows
    Male eyebrows are fairly straight and thick and sit on or just under the orbital rims. Female eyebrows generally sit higher and are more arched.
    Nose
    The female nose is smaller, shorter. It has a narrower bridge and nostrils, often has a more concave profile, and tends to be blunter at the tip. Also it has a greater angulation between the lip and the tip of the nose (points upwards more).
    Cheeks
    Female cheeks tend to be fuller and more rounded, and cheekbones are a little higher and further forward. Men often have hollow cheeks, because of flatter cheekbones and their tendency to carry less fat.
    Lips
    The distance between the nose's base and lip's top is usually longer in males When a female mouth is relaxed and slightly open, it usually shows a bit of her top teeth, which lends a youthful appearance to the face. The area between the top lip and nose often has a more backward slope in females.
    Chin
    Female chins are rounded. Male chins are wider, have a flat base and have two corners that form a square shape. Male chins are taller and heavier and are more likely to have a vertical cleft in the middle.
    Jaw
    The male jawbone is usually heavier built and tends to be wider, because the muscles attached to the corners of the jawbone are much bigger. Female jaw lines run in a gentle curve from the earlobe to the chin. In males it tends to drop down straight from the ear and then turn at a sharp angle towards the chin giving a square appearance.
    Adam's Apple
    The Adam's apple is usually visible and very prominent in males, but rarely visible in females.
    Eyes
    The eyes in a woman appear larger. This is in part because of the shape of the bony rim above and the forehead, and partly because of the cheek bones. The combination of bone shapes create relatively larger eyes which is considered both feminine and attractive.

http://www.facialfeminizationsurgery.info/ffs_male_female_faces.html (http://www.facialfeminizationsurgery.info/ffs_male_female_faces.html)

For instace;(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpsychologyofbeauty.files.wordpress.com%2F2010%2F01%2Fscreen_shot_2010-01-16_at_3-04-36_pm.png&hash=555ff4ebd286d3bade4f04795a5593c80b548d2f)
Difference between Male and Female Skull-features:(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.drbecky.com%2Fskulls.gif&hash=7a92e5a596aff942752ccdf2635f8dbd44d82636)


I would like to post more, but as for this post, I believe this will do.
Yes, I know there are "Loads of females that look like males" but to put it bluntly, those females are- no matter how rude it may sound- irrelevant, as they are not the majority but the minority, for the reason that if male looking females had been the majority, so called traditional masculine features would be interpreted as female.

Quote from: Zarania on January 25, 2012, 03:14:33 AM
that means NOTHING.

if i see someone clothing theirselves as woman, will i call them sir or ma'am?

ma'am ofcourse, im not an ->-bleeped-<-, i can see that this person is transgender and i dont want to make HER feel bad.

What I'm talking about is there are people here who use this as a tool to attack people they don't agree with. I'm not asking ANYONE if I'm a woman, I am and don't need anyone to validate it. But I do find I get the MOST abuse and nasty comments from GLBT people both in RL and online.  YMMV on this.

Quote from: Bishounen on January 25, 2012, 08:56:52 AM
Haven is "unfortunately" correct- Passing is not about subjectivity. It can be to an extent, but on the overall, visual Passing is about facial symmetry, not looking pretty or resembling a female celebrity with male features.
There are a lot of trannies that look very pretty and even beautiful and yet is clockable because of their facial features, no matter how much the people that want to boost transsexual self esteem(Bless them) wishes that such is not the case. But, it is.

Outdraft: http://www.facialfeminizationsurgery.info/ffs_male_female_faces.html (http://www.facialfeminizationsurgery.info/ffs_male_female_faces.html)

For instace;(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpsychologyofbeauty.files.wordpress.com%2F2010%2F01%2Fscreen_shot_2010-01-16_at_3-04-36_pm.png&hash=555ff4ebd286d3bade4f04795a5593c80b548d2f)

I would like to post more, but as for this post, I believe this will do.

Thanks for posting this. To me on casual inspection (and unless I really study them after being pointed to the differences) I see ZERO difference in the left and right pictures. A trans person has learned to key in on the VERY minor differences and obsess on them. The main difference I see is eye brow shape, not the bone but the hair part. Some brow waxing/shaping and a little makeup and any of those shots would look more feminine than the difference in "structure". When you're walking around in the mall NO ONE is going to study your brow bone or the shape of your eye sockets. If you walk like a woman, carry yourself like a woman and for the most part resemble a woman, people are gonna "see woman" and go on with their own business. 

What is going on is many trans people are so self concious they believe everyone studies them looking for their flaws. Trust me you just aren't that important to other people! Just look reasonable for your gender and people won't give you a second look. All this talk looks like a sales pitch for doing mega amounts of plastic surgery....

Quote from: Stephe on January 25, 2012, 09:37:10 AM
Thanks for posting this.

Your are welcome. :)

QuoteTo me on casual inspection (and unless I really study them after being pointed to the differences) I see ZERO difference in the left and right pictures. A trans person has learned to key in on the VERY minor differences and obsess on them. The main difference I see is eye brow shape, not the bone but the hair part. Some brow waxing/shaping and a little makeup and any of those shots would look more feminine than the difference in "structure".

Depends very much. Although, I am confident that you on the other hand do see a very clear difference between the below-pic and the upper-pic- That is, the Male face and the female face. 

QuoteWhen you're walking around in the mall NO ONE is going to study your brow bone or the shape of your eye sockets. If you walk like a woman, carry yourself like a woman and for the most part resemble a woman, people are gonna "see woman" and go on with their own business.

If that is true, then why are MTF's on this very board being harassed in their everyday life, sometimes to the point of suicide, because of their looks, no matter how natural looks and womanly manners they have?

The following question is not meant as provocation but asked with respect, however it is an important and very relevant question for the subject: If confidence and "female manners" alone is all that is needed for passing, then why did you feel the need to have a Rhinoplasty?

QuoteWhat is going on is many trans people are so self concious they believe everyone studies them looking for their flaws. Trust me you just aren't that important to other people! Just look reasonable for your gender and people won't give you a second look.

On the other hand, many transpeople are very self concious because many trans people are very often clocked. It is really not any more weird than people with Down's being self aware about that, too, and no matter how the person with Downäs may feel like everyone else, people in their surround can see that the person is a 'Mongoloid'(As they were called earlier).
Sometimes it is also the other way around; That even if the MTF is totally oblivious about her looks, the people in her surrounding, on the other hand, may not be, no matter how passable the MTF consider herself to be.

QuoteAll this talk looks like a sales pitch for doing mega amounts of plastic surgery....

A lot of people on this board would strongly disagree with that and many would probably even find the statement outrageous and directly insulting.
Thanks to Facial Feminisation Surgeries, people that earlier on was denied transition only because of their masculine looks alone, or, transitioned but was constantly taunted because of their male looks and forced to live in the shadows of Society, would have been stuck with that fate for the rest of their life without being able to do a darn thing about it.



Don't get me wrong, I totally agree that a lot with a successfull transition have to do with attitude and just being yourself and ignoring what other peopole think, and I also agree that sometimes Plastic Surgery is totally unecessary, but I totally disagree that all that it takes to pass is carying oneslf as a woman and you will automatically be passable.

Quote from: Bishounen on January 25, 2012, 08:56:52 AM
Haven is "unfortunately" correct- Passing is not about subjectivity. It can be to an extent, but on the overall, visual Passing is about facial symmetry, not looking pretty or resembling a female celebrity with male features.
There are a lot of trannies that look very pretty and even beautiful and yet is clockable because of their facial features, no matter how much the people that want to boost transsexual self esteem(Bless them) wishes that such is not the case. But, it is.

Outdraft: http://www.facialfeminizationsurgery.info/ffs_male_female_faces.html (http://www.facialfeminizationsurgery.info/ffs_male_female_faces.html)

For instace;(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpsychologyofbeauty.files.wordpress.com%2F2010%2F01%2Fscreen_shot_2010-01-16_at_3-04-36_pm.png&hash=555ff4ebd286d3bade4f04795a5593c80b548d2f)
Difference between Male and Female Skull-features:(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.drbecky.com%2Fskulls.gif&hash=7a92e5a596aff942752ccdf2635f8dbd44d82636)


I would like to post more, but as for this post, I believe this will do.
Yes, I know there are "Loads of females that look like males" but to put it bluntly, those females are- no matter how rude it may sound- irrelevant, as they are not the majority but the minority, for the reason that if male looking females had been the majority, so called traditional masculine features would be interpreted as female.

Um sorry.  But NO.  They are the ones that you are going to compare yourselves to.   You will not usually look like an extraordinarily feminine woman unless you happened to get lucky.

Most of you on here look like women with masculine features.   Are you delusionally suggesting that I compare you to say  Catherine Zeta Jones when in reality you aren't going to get past Alexandra Paul?

How exactly are you going to "Pass" with that smaller skull and different facial features unless you have surgery.  Some use HRT with amazing results.  But at the end of the day if you ask me to find the masculine features I am going to be able to find them because hello logic  "your body and face developed as a male"  You can't undo that all the way.

This is why I think it is so important to have young transgendered kids given hormone blockers.


So do you want people to say the truth which is everyone has a masculine feature that can be identified?   Well this is a transgendered website.  Of course you are going to find it.


I don't compare people to others.  I look at the face and say "If I saw this face would I immediately say transgendered"  If I wouldn't I'll say pass.  That is all I'm going by.

To say that masculine looking women are irrelevant boggles my mind.   Very few transgendered women are going to pass for very feminine looking women without major amounts of plastic surgery.   That doesn't mean they don't look like women.

My mind is completely confused by your post.  I can't understand why you think that masculine looking women are irrelevant when that is precisely what most transgendered women look like????

Quote from: Beverley on January 25, 2012, 10:36:11 AM
I would not agree with that statement either - it is too bald a statement, but I would say (and have done) that self-confidence is the biggest SINGLE factor in passing and that for MANY of us FFS is unnecessary.

I do not totally exclude FFS - even my post above this one concedes that FFS is needed sometimes.

Beverley

Really? 'Cause I don't have much confidence. I'm shy and nervous and I look it. And it doesn't make any difference at all to my passability.

I think people who display more confidence are given a pass. I.e. because they present an aura of confidence people go along with it. But that really isn't quite the same thing.

Passing is a very physical endeavour. I gender people based on their voice, their facial structure, and their body shape. You can't use clothing or makeup as guides really in queer communities, 'cause some guys wear makeup and skirts and some girls don't, so it forces you to be a bit more aware. And worse you are dealing with people who slide around on the edges even in a physical sense - lot of gay girls with low voices, and guys with high voices, for example. This is why it's a hell of a lot harder for trans* folks to pass in queer spaces. And I spend quite a bit of time in those spaces these days.

I guess I don't really know what confidence is supposed to do in terms of altering how people actually gender you, as opposed to whether they are willing to call you ma'am. I suppose some folks don't really care about the difference, but I do.

I've always thought confidence just made you a less vulnerable target for those who have issues.

Heck, I know people clock me, but most all will stilll ma'am me or call me hun or dear or whatever as I put forth more than enough of a feminine presentation that they can do that without feeling all icky. At least that's my impression of it while dealing with so many of the same people on a mostly daily basis.

Really good post.  Like Bishounen's comments.  Thread sent to me by my online therapist and friend.

My last surgeon got to point of being unethical in selling me unneeded procedures.  I told him I am TG but will live as a male.

Maybe had 12 procedures on my face for over $40,000.   Looks very good too.  Friends both trans and GG told me I looked cute before and I still look cute.  I still pass 100% of time as a male without a wig, without makeup and in male clothes.  Makes me sad that everyone calls me sir. 

Wanted a mastopexy to lift my trans saggy 40c breasts and make them nicer 40b breasts.  Doctor put equivalent weight of 1 gallon of milk under my pecs and I now have pretty 40DD breasts and still mostly present male.  I was totally spaced out on valium and hydrocodone and told him no but he kept asking and finally got a yes.  He knew I lived as a male.

If I dressed up as a female before or after surgery I was reasonably passable except for voice which I am so self-conscious to talk female  that I end up talking male voice or just nodding my head or smiling.

I frequently go to bank, and shopping as a gender bender.  I wear androgynous female attire without a wig and without makeup.  Sometimes people giggle when they see me and I am addressed as sir.  If they are sensitive they call me friend or honey.  I prefer gender neutral restrooms.

My trans friends and therapists tell me be either a male or female but society does not accept anything but binary.  This is true society only accepts binary.

I know trans people that pass 100%, 80% and 50% if they try.  Some could present as I do and would be considered a female.  I have one famous therapist that frequently still gets called sir and she politely states she is trans and it is Mame.  They say oh I am sorry Mame almost every time.

Finally almost every person I talk to is nice to me.  I do volunteer work in elementary black schools.  Almost each time I volunteer a child of kindergartener age will ask my gender.  Boys ask if I am male and girls ask if I am female.  They are nice but curious.  I think if I tried and trained my voice I could get to 80% pass.   Many areas that are trans friendly will call you mame if you make an effort. 

@Jamie,
honey, quite serious now - you look fabulous, with pleasant female body proportions.
That's such a GIFT!
I find it pretty hard to think, judging from your avatar, you EVER would get clocked.

Great! So happy for you!

Axélle

Quote from: Axélle-Michélle on January 25, 2012, 12:16:12 PM
@Jamie,
honey, quite serious now - you look fabulous, with pleasant female body proportions.
That's such a GIFT!
I find it pretty hard to think, judging from your avatar, you EVER would get clocked.

Great! So happy for you!

Axélle

Thank you. People do tend to have varying things that they cue on for gender and casually, I'm fine, they would rarely ever suspect I am trans. I even have a fairly pleasant feminine voice unless my sinuses are acting up and I have a difficult time even speaking at all then. But I do still have a bit of brow bone and at times, my adam's apple can be seen. I think most of my issues are with a profile view of me though. 

Quote from: JenJen2011 on December 16, 2011, 03:17:02 PM
Recently I've been reading posts from several girls telling other girls they "totally pass", "definitely pass", "you look all woman", etc and then I look at the pics they're referring to and perhaps something is wrong with my eyes but I just don't see it.

I don't want ya'll to take this the wrong way. I'm not trying to be mean or make any of the girls feel bad, I just don't think it's right that we lie to them. I wonder if these girls are saying it just to be nice? Or maybe my transdar is too strong and I know what to look for? Like some people tell me I pass but I don't see it.

Now, some of these girls are totally pretty but pretty=/=passable. So, maybe they're mixing the two?

I don't know. Maybe someone can enlighten me a bit.

I haven't read the entire thread. Passing is so much more than a pretty picture. It's your personality. I know GG's that totally act like men and are often mistaken as such. I'm a tomboy. I rarely get "sirred" unless someone is approaching me from behind. I still have broad shoulders. From the front, I never have issues.... and I dress mostly in androgynous clothing. I'm very polite to people, use their names (like if they wear a nametag).... I do all the things that men would likely not do. I have a friend that I never would have thought could pass. She gets strange looks sometimes, but gets along just fine. Her secret is that she doesn't care and ignores it. She gets by just fine. I would suggest to everyone here that things in our society are changing for our benefit. Don't be afraid anymore. Be yourself, carry dignity, and be confident.

Chin up!

Cindi

I honestly believe a lot of what people feel "They need to do to pass" is related to how much time they spend in trans support groups or hanging out in GLBT spaces. Some friends of mine are heavy into the local trans support groups and listening to them, I still need to wait 2 years or so to "be passable enough to go full time". I haven't been called sir in well over a year, no one really pays a lot of attention to me other than normal chatting and women are all very friendly, chat with me in the rest room about fashion or what ever etc. Maybe that isn't passing but I'm fine with whatever someone wants to call it.

Quote from: JenJen2011 on January 24, 2012, 09:02:09 PM
I don't know if you're referring to the one up now but if you are, that isn't me. That's Britney Spears, lol. The one i had before was of me so if you're referring to that one, thank you. I recently had full FFS tho so I look different now. ;)

Why do people do that? put a picture up of someone else as their avatar? Jen why don't you actually show a picture of yourself? I didn't know it was a picture of Britney Spears? how am I supposed to compete with her? I'm probably twice her age for starters!

Quote from: Naturally Blonde on January 25, 2012, 10:58:52 PM
Why do people do that? put a picture up of someone else as their avatar? Why don't you actually show a picture of yourself and then we will have a better idea of what you actually look like.

Kia Ora Natural Blonde,

::) I am a dolphin.... No truly I am a dolphin and I'm just surfing the wake of a speed boat...

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Zenda on January 25, 2012, 11:02:29 PM
Kia Ora Natural Blonde,

::) I am a dolphin.... No truly I am a dolphin and I'm just surfing the wake of a speed boat...

Metta Zenda :)

Yea, ha ha! I think the dolphin is nice!  but I don't like people putting picture's of female pop stars or movie stars in their profiles. Slow people like me think it's really an actual picture of the person starting the post!

<---------------This is me. This is my fursona. ^_^

I'd probably scare a few people if I put my pic as my avatar.

Quote from: Naturally Blonde on January 25, 2012, 10:58:52 PM
Why do people do that? put a picture up of someone else as their avatar? Jen why don't you actually show a picture of yourself? I didn't know it was a picture of Britney Spears? how am I supposed to compete with her? I'm probably twice her age for starters!

I don't get that either. Either use yourself or throw up some cartoon avie if you don't want people to see you. I wondered the same thing. Or should I grab some random hot girl and say "Do I pass?" lol

OK if you wanna use this chart, lets try to equalize this.

Use same brow shape (some simple makeup) have the faces all the same skin tone, cover the beard shadow, same lip color and crop them all the same. While the face in the lower is cuter (mainly from nose being turned up slightly) the upper shots don't scream guy now. If any of these faces were on someone with fem hair, cute clothes, carried themselves and sounded like a woman = pass just fine..

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fatlantaracing.tripod.com%2Fcleanup%2Ftry_again.jpg&hash=306e24bcda3cfb875d69ad222ffabcead7e24b01)

Skulls and bone structures vary a great deal no matter what gender you are! I'm sure some of you have seen a natural born women who you are convinced is a  ->-bleeped-<-! I've seen loads! and I've also transsexuals who fit perfectly into the smaller skull size spectrum and look totally female.

Quote from: Naturally Blonde on January 26, 2012, 12:02:20 PM
Skulls and bone structures vary a great deal no matter what gender you are! I'm sure some of you have seen a natural born women who you are convinced is a  ->-bleeped-<-! I've seen loads! and I've also transsexuals who fit perfectly into the smaller skull size spectrum and look totally female.

Too funny!  I saw a lady hat had a pixie cut and a face similar to mine that was selling jewelry.  I said that is so nice that a TS person is hired to sell jewelry.  I'd have bet you $200 that she was TS.  Next day I went over and talked to her.  I looked for any tell-tale sign while I chatted with her.  No facial scars, great female voice, pixie hair, large hips and rear.  She was totally nice and we had a great conversation.   I would have lost $200 but I found one girl in world that had a face that was more masculine than mine.   Bottonline is many of us can pass if we tried.   I have upped my odds from zero to 80% if really try.   If I try a little it is 0%.  Most people form an opinion of your gender so fast that if you pass they will let you continue to pass.  But passing has to do with many factors such as confidence, clothing, jewelry, voice, word selection, hair, body shape, and other factors besides face.  Hey very pretty bearded ladies have a tough time passing as a female.  I know many FTM's that took T and very pretty girls and they became very handsome men.  Their faces had totally female features except for beards, deep voices, and large arms.  Hey they did not look like girls.  Reverse can be true for MTF;s.  I know many MTF's in which I am prettier but they would pass easily and I still could not pass.

Attitude, confidence and personality are also very important and are clues that are picked up quickly!

Quote from: Naturally Blonde on January 26, 2012, 12:02:20 PM
Skulls and bone structures vary a great deal no matter what gender you are! I'm sure some of you have seen a natural born women who you are convinced is a  ->-bleeped-<-! I've seen loads! and I've also transsexuals who fit perfectly into the smaller skull size spectrum and look totally female.

Um, actually, no, I haven't, and I don't know where you're getting this.  The features frequently seen in transsexual women are very, very uncommon in those assigned female at birth.  For a simple example (and one that's probably a more generous one than most), using statistical data about the average height of women in the US and the standard deviation, about 2.5% of women in the United States are taller than 5'9", and less than .1% are taller than 6 feet.  That isn't to say that cis women with those kinds of height don't exist, it's just very uncommon.  (It works out to about 150,000 cis women taller than 6 feet, if we're using 300 million as the US population and assuming that roughly half of those people are women.)  Other traditionally masculine body shapes are similarly rare in cis women, such that it's extremely unlikely that one is going to "clock" a woman who isn't trans unless you're clocking anybody who isn't within the 50th percentile or lower in average measurements.

Quote from: wendy on January 26, 2012, 06:54:30 PM
Too funny!  I saw a lady hat had a pixie cut and a face similar to mine that was selling jewelry.  I said that is so nice that a TS person is hired to sell jewelry.  I'd have bet you $200 that she was TS.  Next day I went over and talked to her.  I looked for any tell-tale sign while I chatted with her.  No facial scars, great female voice, pixie hair, large hips and rear.  She was totally nice and we had a great conversation.   I would have lost $200 but I found one girl in world that had a face that was more masculine than mine.   Bottonline is many of us can pass if we tried.   I have upped my odds from zero to 80% if really try.   If I try a little it is 0%.  Most people form an opinion of your gender so fast that if you pass they will let you continue to pass.  But passing has to do with many factors such as confidence, clothing, jewelry, voice, word selection, hair, body shape, and other factors besides face.  Hey very pretty bearded ladies have a tough time passing as a female.  I know many FTM's that took T and very pretty girls and they became very handsome men.  Their faces had totally female features except for beards, deep voices, and large arms.  Hey they did not look like girls.  Reverse can be true for MTF;s.  I know many MTF's in which I am prettier but they would pass easily and I still could not pass.

Attitude, confidence and personality are also very important and are clues that are picked up quickly!

False analogy.  "Androgynous features" (that is, non-gendered facial cues, like a minimally or unbossed forehead, small chins, and non-angular jawlines) are necessary but not sufficient for others to reliably see you as female.  When further cues, like eyebrows, facial hair, or hairlines indicate maleness, even the most "feminine" of faces will be seen as male.  Conversely, even faces with "male features" (like a bossed forehead or a long chin or an angular jawline) but have no further cues that suggest masculinity or maleness constitute something that will frequently get noticed, especially if the three exist in combination.

The fortunate thing is that most people don't know this much stuff about body metrics, so this isn't as much of a problem as it might initially seem.  The truth is, though, that the face is the most important cue that people use to gender people, closely followed by the body.

Quote from: Wonderdyke on January 26, 2012, 07:32:51 PM
Um, actually, no, I haven't, and I don't know where you're getting this.  The features frequently seen in transsexual women are very, very uncommon in those assigned female at birth.  For a simple example (and one that's probably a more generous one than most), using statistical data about the average height of women in the US and the standard deviation, about 2.5% of women in the United States are taller than 5'9", and less than .1% are taller than 6 feet.  That isn't to say that cis women with those kinds of height don't exist, it's just very uncommon.  (It works out to about 150,000 cis women taller than 6 feet, if we're using 300 million as the US population and assuming that roughly half of those people are women.)  Other traditionally masculine body shapes are similarly rare in cis women, such that it's extremely unlikely that one is going to "clock" a woman who isn't trans unless you're clocking anybody who isn't within the 50th percentile or lower in average measurements.

I've had arguments with my friend when we've seen a genetic female in the street on more than one occasion that looks exactly like a TS. She was tall with a big head, no hips and no ass! it happens, but she was a genetic female. I've also seen young guys with long hair who are so naturally feminine and they have no desire to want to be female but could make it so easy if they wanted to.

I'm 5' 7" and in the U.K that's a little tall for a female but short for a male. I think if you have smaller physical features which are of a similar size to a cis women you blend in a lot better.

ive seen some cis women mistaken for trans too. Hell, some cis women were even kicked out of women's bathrooms.

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/21246685/ns/today-today_people/t/bounced-bathroom-being-different/#.TyIUjPnp4v0 (http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/21246685/ns/today-today_people/t/bounced-bathroom-being-different/#.TyIUjPnp4v0)

woman called it, thrown out of hotel bathroom (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C44ZrbXifEc#)

OMG! someone being mis-gendered and kicked out of the bathroom? Never!

That stuff happens to us all the time! We at least try to look like we belong there. Not that calling her an 'it' was right, but I can see how she was mistaken for a guy.

Quote from: Keaira on January 26, 2012, 11:01:12 PM
Not that calling her an 'it' was right, but I can see how she was mistaken for a guy.

that was my point from a previous post response :)

Quote from: Wonderdyke on January 26, 2012, 07:32:51 PM
The truth is, though, that the face is the most important cue that people use to gender people, closely followed by the body.

Actually your voice is more important than your body in most cases and can make up for a manly face.

You know what else is a real killer?  Sunlight. If you can pass out in the sunshine, you've got it made. Not kidding. ;D

Quote from: Stephe on January 26, 2012, 11:11:11 PM
Actually your voice is more important than your body in most cases and can make up for a manly face.

Um, I tend to agree.
If I get an odd look, I give a smile, say "Hello" and the ice/questioning attitude is broken, 10/10.

All I can say,
Axélle

Quote from: Stephe on January 26, 2012, 11:11:11 PM
Actually your voice is more important than your body in most cases and can make up for a manly face.

Dunno what to say.  I know when my voice got absolutely trashed by a couple of bouts of bronchitis I didn't have any trouble, because of how I looked.

These discussions about "what gets you clocked?" regularly reappear and go on ad infinitum.

The answer is always the same - it's not especially a specific thing that gets you clocked, it's having a combination of too many things.

There are tall girls, girls with large feet, girls with large hands, girls wih thick necks, girls with very slim hips, girls with broad shoulders etc etc etc

You get read when the amount of maleness you are carrying adds up to too much.
When people are wondering but not sure, then voice and confidence can carry you through.

Quote from: Annah on January 26, 2012, 09:14:34 PM
ive seen some cis women mistaken for trans too. Hell, some cis women were even kicked out of women's bathrooms.

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/21246685/ns/today-today_people/t/bounced-bathroom-being-different/#.TyIUjPnp4v0 (http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/21246685/ns/today-today_people/t/bounced-bathroom-being-different/#.TyIUjPnp4v0)

woman called it, thrown out of hotel bathroom (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C44ZrbXifEc#)

she dresses like a man and uses the womens bathroom?

its like a transgender (mtf) passable, goes to the mens bathroom.


sorry but if you dont wanna get mistaken for another gender, dont dress yourself like it. otherwise you shouldn't WHINE about the cruelty of society.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi845.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fab11%2Fxmandeh%2Ftumblr_lisn1k5tl31qcvthoo1_250.gif&hash=cb1fa8374a6733131c2e50e8bec678bee26a5d13)

I go in the Men's Room at school, I can get suspended if I use the ladies. >_>

Quote from: Zylphia on January 27, 2012, 08:16:15 AM
I go in the Men's Room at school, I can get suspended if I use the ladies. >_>

That's so stupid. It's just a bathroom, it shouldn't be such a big deal.
I've even seen cis girls in the mens bathroom at my college because the ladies was full. Luckily my college isn't very strict.

Yeah the VP told me if I kept using the girls washroom he would have to suspend me. :c

Well this is a video of me. I'm just rambling. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oToJWGFXEIU#)

Quote from: Zylphia on January 27, 2012, 09:26:35 AM
Yeah the VP told me if I kept using the girls washroom he would have to suspend me. :c

British Columbia does have gender identity read into the Charter of Rights. http://www.bchrcoalition.org/files/GroundsProtection.html#Sex (http://www.bchrcoalition.org/files/GroundsProtection.html#Sex)
You might point that out to your VP.

I would also suggest getting a letter from the doctor who is prescribing your HRT that explains your situation and that you are expected to use women's facilities during your RLE. He might still refuse, but if he's not a complete ->-bleeped-<- he also might bend.

Otherwise you get into taking a human rights complaint against the school and that is just an ugly complicated mess even if you do win.

Oh well I guess I'll just avoid public restrooms for the rest of my life. :U

CYA! That's pretty much become the name of the game. Like myself, I had HR's blessing at work before I even set foot in the women's restroom.

So annoyed.  Do you realize that so many transgender women are passing off Prejudice as "reality."  I mean seriously  Eugenics MUCH?   Seriously.  If most of you said these kinds of things about women in a regular workplace you'd be frickin' fired.


>>>>>>Disgusted.

Mixie, I know of an MtF who was let go from her job, while she was starting her transition, for using the women's bathroom. When I started mine and went full time at work, there was such a storm about it that I sat outside in a break area crying for 2 hours! If I had not spoken with HR about my transition before hand, I have no doubt I would still be unemployed. Indiana has no protections for transsexuals. THAT is the reality I face. And I still get extremely nervous when a group of women come into the restroom when I'm in there. I will hold it in and do the potty dance before I go potty when people go to break.  Some women will walk out if they see me in there. They knew me as a guy for 3 years. I thought that my being helpful, polite, etc. would have been the way to go before I started my transition, but it didn't help much.

Quote from: Zylphia on January 27, 2012, 12:38:32 PM
Oh well I guess I'll just avoid public restrooms for the rest of my life. :U

You'll be fine :)

You're just in a school right now that's funny about this.

I have been using the women's bathroom for a couple years now with no incident. ....even the bathrooms at Seminary.

You have to "feel" out where you are...if you are at a place where they all knew you as a man, it will be hard because they saw you as a man for awhile. When you start to move on where people just don't know about your male gender past, it'll become a helluva lot easier.

Also, when you go into your profession, be sure to include how they see diversity as part of your decision. I do that too

Quote from: mixie on January 29, 2012, 08:11:34 PM
So annoyed.  Do you realize that so many transgender women are passing off Prejudice as "reality."  I mean seriously  Eugenics MUCH?   Seriously.  If most of you said these kinds of things about women in a regular workplace you'd be frickin' fired.


>>>>>>Disgusted.

What the hell are you disgusted by?  ???  Prejudice might not be your reality but it certainly is for many others.

Quote from: Annah on January 30, 2012, 01:08:13 AM

You have to "feel" out where you are...if you are at a place where they all knew you as a man, it will be hard because they saw you as a man for awhile. When you start to move on where people just don't know about your male gender past, it'll become a helluva lot easier.

It is hard. I'm getting to where I don't even bother to correct people when they use the wrong pronouns because it does me no good. And when they keep calling me 'He' its really wearing on my patience as well as my self esteem, what little I have anyway.

Quote from: Hermione01 on January 30, 2012, 01:22:44 AM
What the hell are you disgusted by?  ???  Prejudice might not be your reality but it certainly is for many others.

I am disgusted by the perpetuation of prejudice by the justification that sounds a whole heckofalot like "She asked for it"  "She was stupid"  "She should have known."


Comments that come across remarkably like a black person saying that if a dark skinned black man walked into a racist town and got lynched,  he should have known better.   As if it's his own fault.


Prejudice is everyone's reality.  It's not a badge of honor to say you are prejudiced against.   Everyone has experienced it in one way or another.  It's not a competition for authority to say if you've been discriminated against,  that somehow if you then make prejudiced statements,  it's your right to do so.

I admit I am prejudice. I don't mean to be I just am.
It's probably just because I am scared of like everything.

Quote from: Zylphia on January 30, 2012, 01:35:07 PM
I admit I am prejudice. I don't mean to be I just am.
It's probably just because I am scared of like everything.

That's probably one of the most honest comments I've seen.   I think people try to combat their fears and insecurities by being "realists" but the reality some people are seeing just doesn't match what me and several other people I know have seen.

Quote from: Hermione01 on January 30, 2012, 01:22:44 AM
What the hell are you disgusted by?  ???  Prejudice might not be your reality but it certainly is for many others.

Mixie might be too polite to point out specific examples, but I'm not:

Quote from: Keaira on January 26, 2012, 11:01:12 PM
We at least try to look like we belong there.

Quote from: Zarania on January 27, 2012, 08:04:42 AM
sorry but if you dont wanna get mistaken for another gender, dont dress yourself like it. otherwise you shouldn't WHINE about the cruelty of society.

Really guys? We are gonna be the gender police now? This is the kind of stuff that makes me question why I still frequent these forums. I'm wearing a men's shirt today, I guess I must deserve to be tossed out of women's bathrooms too.

It's one thing to say, "people are prejudiced, that's really ->-bleeped-<-ty, but that's how it is." It's another to be complicit in that perspective.

Quote from: Sarah7 on January 30, 2012, 01:47:00 PM


It's one thing to say, "people are prejudiced, that's really ->-bleeped-<-ty, but that's how it is." It's another to be complicit in that perspective.

THIS!

Quote from: Beverley on January 30, 2012, 01:58:38 PM
This is getting out of hand. Look - when I saw her I thought she was a man. If I saw her in a ladies' restroom I would do what the guard did and query it, but when she proved she was female it should have ended there and then with an apology from the guard. That is where this went wrong.

If you look like a man and act like a man then of course you will be queried if you are somewhere reserved for females - after all it COULD be a man in the ladies' room. Someone has to check, but the check should be courteous.

Beverley

This except the "proved"  If she said she was female, it should have been dropped.

Quote from: Beverley on January 30, 2012, 01:58:38 PM
This is getting out of hand. Look - when I saw her I thought she was a man. If I saw her in a ladies' restroom I would do what the guard did and query it, but when she proved she was female it should have ended there and then with an apology from the guard. That is where this went wrong.

If you look like a man and act like a man then of course you will be queried if you are somewhere reserved for females - after all it COULD be a man in the ladies' room. Someone has to check, but the check should be courteous.

Beverley

I'm just going to say that I entirely, 100% disagree, and then turn it over to the brilliant and talented Ivan E. Coyote to respond to this: http://www.xtra.ca/public/Vancouver/Dear_Lady_in_the_Womens_Washroom-10801.aspx (http://www.xtra.ca/public/Vancouver/Dear_Lady_in_the_Womens_Washroom-10801.aspx)

Quote from: Beverley on January 30, 2012, 03:10:49 PM
I said 'proved' because that is what she did. She produced ID. It should have ended there and then.

Beverley

Oh I know what you meant.  You were just explaining what happened.  But I just pointed it out to emphasize. 

Quote from: Beverley on January 30, 2012, 03:13:38 PM
So then, what should happen when a man DOES lurk in the ladies with the intention of pleasuring himself by the simple act of being there?  Should he not be challenged in case he is a lesbian passing as male?

Beverley

Sorry, not taking the bait.  The desires of the cisnormative, heteronormative patriarchy are irrelevant when discussing the importance of the right to self-identification of trans and queer people.

Here's the thing for me.   She was referred to as "IT"  so this tells me that she actually clocked as a transgender female.  If she was clocked as a cisgendered female that looked like a guy,  the security guard would have been embarrassed for her.  So her demeanor and gestures must have come across as feminine.  Then the guard thinks "it's one of those queers" and decides to make a case out of it.  Otherwise he would have been embarrassed and sorry for her, if she looked so masculine.

You can tell that this wasn't a normal mix up.  This was a delicacy of sexism and transphobia.   Grrr


Compare   A security guard sees a man looking in the window in the back of a store.   He comes up and says "what are you doing"  The guy says "I work here and I left my keys inside"  the security guard calls the cops.   The cops come and the guard says "Well I saw this Ni**er trying to break in"   then it turns out that the guy was telling the truth. 


The fact that the guard called him the N word shows that the reason he didn't believe him is because the guard is racist.   He would prove it himself.  This is the same thing.  The reason the guard stopped her was because he was transbiased.   Not because he got confused.   

Quote from: Beverley on January 30, 2012, 05:05:05 PM
Fair enough.

Enjoy....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1385889/Joel-Hardman-wore-female-rubber-mask-wig-spy-women-public-toilets.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1385889/Joel-Hardman-wore-female-rubber-mask-wig-spy-women-public-toilets.html)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1388343/Starbucks-Peeping-Tom-William-Zafra-Velasco-filmed-45-women-children-toilet.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1388343/Starbucks-Peeping-Tom-William-Zafra-Velasco-filmed-45-women-children-toilet.html)


Beverley

Yeah.  Those things are happening already, even with all the intolerance in place to ensure that trans people don't "upset" the cis people with their presence.

Honestly, I don't believe that something as trivial to one's need to urinate necessitates a sex-stratified system in the first place (and, what's more, I believe that the concept of legal sex / gender should be abolished altogether), but the least we can do is allow people to use the restroom without having their dignity stripped down in front of their faces with a "gender check".

can we get back on topic and leave the "bathroom BS" behind?

I think it is interesting because I often get a "no, you don't pass" from posting pictures but I get ma'am'd all the time. I even have people refer to me as so-and-so's daughter/ sister. Pictures simply can not answer the age old question of "do I pass". They can however give us good feedback on things to improve and I think the idea is more "critique my picture" and less "do I pass".

Quote from: missjanealice on January 31, 2012, 06:01:29 AM
can we get back on topic and leave the "bathroom BS" behind?

I think it is interesting because I often get a "no, you don't pass" from posting pictures but I get ma'am'd all the time. I even have people refer to me as so-and-so's daughter/ sister. Pictures simply can not answer the age old question of "do I pass". They can however give us good feedback on things to improve and I think the idea is more "critique my picture" and less "do I pass".

It's interesting missjanealice.  In your avatar picture.  I would say 100 percent pass.  But you posted another picture from a different angle.  I would clock you on that one.   And this is why pictures are not good indicators.

I look horrible in photographs.  One reason is that I am usually taller than everyone taking the pictures.  So I think I look huge and fat with a double chin.   And some people say "Oh no you look lovely!"  But I don't look like I think I look.   Sometimes people really compliment me on my looks when I am out.   But it's more do with how I act than how I look.

Sometimes I see people on here putting on make up and trying to make that picture look good.  I know that in person I would be thinking they don't pass.   

* And some people say "Oh no you look lovely!"  But I don't look like I think I look.   Sometimes people really compliment me on my looks when I am out.   But it's more [to] do with how I act than how I look. *

And that about also wraps it up for me also.
One more thing that plays into it all is 'expectations' - we actually more often see only what we want to see!

If we have a heightened awareness of the Xgender of another person it makes it almost automatically difficult NOT to nit-pick...

Look at my avatar and it can be interpreted as both – male or female – at least in my estimate.

Axélle

Quote from: Axélle-Michélle on January 31, 2012, 10:23:10 PM
* And some people say "Oh no you look lovely!"  But I don't look like I think I look.   Sometimes people really compliment me on my looks when I am out.   But it's more [to] do with how I act than how I look. *

And that about also wraps it up for me aslo.
One more thing that plays into it all is 'expectations' - we actually more often see only what we want to see!

If we have a heightened awareness of the Xgender of another person it makes it almost automatically difficult NOT to nit-pick...

Look at my avatar and it can be interpreted as both – male or female – at least in my estimate.

Axélle

What-eves Axelle... your avatar is superbly fem and you have improved a lot!

Oh thanks sweetie, must be as I said --- we often, mostly see only what we want to see?
Yourself, as was said earlier, look nice, very nice, and femme IMO.

It's like that gg looking in the mirror and saying: "I don't like what I see!" (bad hair day?) and her friend goes: "But you look just GREAT!"
And actually meaning it...

Thanks again for correcting my 'misconception' :-)
Axélle

Note: "We do not see things as they are – we see things as we are"

Quote from: Axélle-Michélle on February 01, 2012, 11:25:48 PM
It's like that gg looking in the mirror and saying: "I don't like what I see!" (bad hair day?) and her friend goes: "But you look just GREAT!"
And actually meaning it...

The other day I RUSHED out of the house, it was a 30 minutes from out of the bed to out the door. Shower/ makeup/pick outfit etc. My friend I hang out with was like "Wow you look great today" and I was thinking "uh no I don't" :P

I like my hair. It styles itself! I kid you not. For the past 3 days I've had my hair parted on the right because I woke up the day after washing my hair and it was like that. So I pulled most of it back and put it in a ponytail. It's different. I like it. For now.
But whenever you see my hair in a different style, it's because my hair did it. :P I dont know if it makes me less passable, but I'm finally coming to terms that my forehead is not as big as I think it is.

Quote from: Beverley on January 31, 2012, 02:43:54 AM
Most of humanity disagrees with you on that point.

All the more reason for me to advocate my position.

Quote
This particular incident could have been handled much, much better with dignity intact on all sides. I do not think this was a 'trans' incident, I think it was simple stupidity mixed with rudeness.
Beverley

Anytime people don't subscribe to sex-essentialist, oppositionally sexist stereotypes and make it public with their expression, society places a judgment on them, and that societal transphobia isn't only an issue for the trans community, as we saw from this video.

It was also bred of stupidity and rudeness, but I think it's important to be aware that that rudeness has a source in society-wide transphobia and binarism.

How is this for passing, vocally at least. This happened to me at 9am this morning.

I was woken by the phone ringing and in my half awake state, I gave my usual 'Hello"

The woman on the other end asked if she was speaking to Angela, my wife. I said 'No." So then I was asked if this was the Finlay household, she was trying top get ahold of my son's parents. I told her she had the right number. So she went though her speel, asking if I thought it would be beneficial to have extra help for my son in class, etc. I said sure. Who wouldn't want help for their childs education, right? So she finally askes me.. And this is what though me for a loop... She asked if I was my son's grandma, step-mother or guardian. I said no, I'm his Dad.

"Sorry?"

I repeated louder, "I'm his Dad!"

Silence for almost a minute. Then I sighed and said "Don't worry, I get that a lot."

So she gives me a number to call to get my son enrolled in a program at his school and she ends it with "Have a nice day Ma'am."

I stood there staring at the phone wondering what the hell just happened. I told this woman I was my son's father and she still called me Ma'am. then I hung up and went back to bed.

here's the thing though. I made no effort to sound feminine!

Keaira I have TS MTF friend that speaks in her male voice.  She was always called Ma'am in her male voice on phone and did not need to change her voice when she transitioned at 62. Cool.
.....
Axelle your avatar is female and you keep looking better.  Maybe that is why you are being watched.  People are watching how you keep looking better within months.

............
Miss Jane Alice your avatar is female.  You look as if you are athletic and female swimmer.  Nice picture.

4/5 times strangers on the phone call me 'Ma'am' ...difficult and embarassing when you have to correct them, and they usually end up saying it regardless...in the end I don't mind, maybe there's hope I can voice-transition in real life aswell when everything HRT-related gets started :P

Yes I definitely pass!  It happened today! I even challenged person.

I have spent $40k on ffs and it looks nice.  I had a big nose feminized, chin reduced, brow bossing removed, and got a face lift to boot.  I put on a nice cap and dressed male.  Only makeup was concealer on scars under nose and chin.  Big moment had arrived.   

I went into bank and cashier asked for my drivers license which had my male face three years ago.   He approved transactions.  I said, "Wait! I do not look like that picture.  Look at it closely!"   He held picture to my face and studied it for at least 10 full seconds.  Finally he said, "Yes you have put on a little weight."  Cashier was correct I had put on 15 pounds in last three months after surgery.  That is all he noticed for $40K!

Quote from: wendy on February 06, 2012, 08:06:32 PM
Yes I definitely pass!  It happened today! I even challenged person.

I have spent $40k on ffs and it looks nice.  I had a big nose feminized, chin reduced, brow bossing removed, and got a face lift to boot.  I put on a nice cap and dressed male.  Only makeup was concealer on scars under nose and chin.  Big moment had arrived.   

I went into bank and cashier asked for my drivers license which had my male face three years ago.   He approved transactions.  I said, "Wait! I do not look like that picture.  Look at it closely!"   He held picture to my face and studied it for at least 10 full seconds.  Finally he said, "Yes you have put on a little weight."  Cashier was correct I had put on 15 pounds in last three months after surgery.  That is all he noticed for $40K!

You spent 40K on surgery and all he noticed was that you gained weight(which is a negative thing)?
I'd be pissed.
You didn't mention him calling you ma'am... I mean... that sorta means you didn't pass.

I know I don't pass to everyone all the time, but I rarely get a weird look, even if its somewhere they are checking my id, which has my female name and pic, but still an M under sex, it also doesn't affect how they refer to me, so I really don't worry about it so much. I guess my presentation is good enough that either they think that its an error or they just don't care or notice.

I also work as a store clerk at a local convenience store, so a lot of locals know I'm trans, but most all respect my gender identity and the few that don't stopped trying to be asses about it. I just live my life, treat people with respect and have a nice, friendly attitude and have pretty much stopped worrying about it. A couple years ago, I never would have thought that I would be able to work that public of a job in this little town and be treated as well as I am. Even a lot of guys that know I used to live as a male use feminine terms of endearment with me. I think consistency with a female presentation has helped with that a lot since its been a long time since they've seen the old me.

As for the phone, even my boss's family members will confuse me with her when they call and I've been exclusively ma'amed on the phone and any intercom for a few years now. And often that helps when dealing with some companies as they tend to be more helpful now.

Quote from: wendy on February 06, 2012, 08:06:32 PM
Yes I definitely pass!  It happened today! I even challenged person.

I have spent $40k on ffs and it looks nice.  I had a big nose feminized, chin reduced, brow bossing removed, and got a face lift to boot.  I put on a nice cap and dressed male.  Only makeup was concealer on scars under nose and chin.  Big moment had arrived.   

I went into bank and cashier asked for my drivers license which had my male face three years ago.   He approved transactions.  I said, "Wait! I do not look like that picture.  Look at it closely!"   He held picture to my face and studied it for at least 10 full seconds.  Finally he said, "Yes you have put on a little weight."  Cashier was correct I had put on 15 pounds in last three months after surgery.  That is all he noticed for $40K!

At least she did not ask if you had facial surgery... THAT may - or may not have been a compliment for your surgeon...

Some 3 month ago I went to "Home Affairs Department" (SA), for having my ID changed at (name & gender) ... the woman looked at my old ID picture still the one I have to use.
Looked at it again and asked me if I have had a nose job done... and smiled. Like nice new nose? :-)
Well, I only recalled having had a skin-cancer op on the right nose wing... that was some 3 year back. Free nose job?
I think it was also to do with HRT - who can tell.

The other thing with passing, it starts to move into the background of your mind. If you pass all the time - why bother to even think about it.
It's like a natal-female after a face-lift. She will also wonder for a while if she is passing for NOT having had a face lift...

Lastly at the Post Office 3 days ago, having to show my ID... the female behind the counter said... "but that's not you! ... can I see YOUR ID also please?"
I think she though it was my husband's :-)
I wouldn't mind HIM for my husband now. Such a nice man... bit grumpy he was, the poor thing. Who's to blame him :-)

So, I had my new pic taken for my new ID (still waiting for it) and so put one of those in the back of the ID book - just in case.
I showed it to her... she gave me a big shiny smile - and that was it.

Hugs,
Axélle

I got refused entry into a club once because the bouncer thought i was a 17 year old girl trying to get into the club with a 22 year old guys ID. Untill I put my dock workers voice on, then he went red and let me in lol

Quote from: El on February 07, 2012, 03:46:41 AM
I got refused entry into a club once because the bouncer thought i was a 17 year old girl trying to get into the club with a 22 year old guys ID. Untill I put my dock workers voice on, then he went red and let me in lol

You know, looking at your picture, If I heard a guys voice come out of that pretty face, I'd have been thrown for a loop too!  :P

Quote from: Beverley on February 07, 2012, 02:14:28 AM
I think that in a lot of cases the changes made by FFS are only visible to other MtF people. The average person in the street judges on gross characteristics and not the very minor changes that most FFS results in. I suspect a lot of passing goes on things like posture, movement and voice. Whether or not your chin to lip distance is 2" or 1.75" will simply not be noticed by people who, in most cases, barely notice if you are blonde or brunette.

Beverley

Beverly understood meaning of my post.  My blue eyes look more feminine than most genetic females and my big male nose is a nice female nose.  I missed my own chin for one month.  I would look in mirror and say, "Oh this chin is a mistake!"   Trans folks told me shape of face was much more feminine.  Cashier totally took me for a male after $40K on ffs.  He was totally nice to me.  But I was amazed that my drivers license from three years ago would pass so that I challenged him.  He studied it and after careful review said you gained some weight.  I actually started laughing and told him he was correct.

I was not nervous, angry, or upset.  However you can spend your life savings and if you can not accept yourself then no one else will.  If you can accept yourself and present in a feminine manner I know of friends that pass most of time and have big male noses and big male shoulders. As Miss Jane Alice astutely said we only show a picture.

Quote from: Beverley on February 07, 2012, 02:14:28 AM
I think that in a lot of cases the changes made by FFS are only visible to other MtF people. The average person in the street judges on gross characteristics and not the very minor changes that most FFS results in. I suspect a lot of passing goes on things like posture, movement and voice. Whether or not your chin to lip distance is 2" or 1.75" will simply not be noticed by people who, in most cases, barely notice if you are blonde or brunette.

Beverley

So true!!! It's not until I grab a before picture and point out the differences that people see what I got done on my face, including family. Only my SO notices all the changes since we live together and he see's me everyday.

Sometimes, yes, the changes are quite subtil, as there may only be minor things needed to change. Often times, the surrounding in the subtil cases cannot put the finger on what has happened and wonders if the person have had a facelift or began a new diet or such.

Other times, however, the changes are very noticeable and have truly worked incredible miracles and left the patient forever thankful.

Before and after; (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.drspiegel.com%2Fwp-content%2Fgallery%2Fffs%2Fy23.jpg&hash=5b9ebf8e47b3178aac135fca45bec0e367c72290)

Before and after;(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.t-change.com%2Fimg%2FFacial-Feminization-surgery-Before-and-after-4-A2.JPG&hash=3e0978c48e71d38dfaf457500ef4b49d39855735)
Before and after; (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.t-change.com%2Fimg%2FFacial-Feminization-surgery-3-front.JPG&hash=ee1633f12f8bfc70d8213b3a36774ca666323e2b)

Before and after; (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.t-change.com%2Fimg%2FFull-Facial-Feminization-2.jpg&hash=2df2a906b5585f2902fdd6a0a74cba8ec65eeb25)
Before and after; (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.t-change.com%2Fimg%2FFacial-feminization-before-after-2.jpg&hash=250357f1128049eae1bd4406c572c7a2c1a9d27d) Before and after; (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.t-change.com%2Fimg%2FFacial-feminization-before-after-1.jpg&hash=64ecd3a1ac898844c9dda096f2e1891e72d283bc)

Before and after; (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.drspiegel.com%2Fwp-content%2Fgallery%2Fffs%2Fzu.jpg&hash=a1a657c6fbbba88f0ac88448aa6b4ad0d7a9bd92)
Before and after; (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm3.static.flickr.com%2F2141%2F2396266325_455c065458.jpg&hash=4fa030bc877627f807deaeae6b46cbfdd916b411)

And, not to forget, our very own Susan's member who's name I have so very unfortunately forgotten for the moment;(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi53.tinypic.com%2F2nqe446.png&hash=792ff7b413f40610a4c1f3ceb9e6331993b3e4c6)
I think that new broad on the right should be legally persecuted for doing away with that gorgeous guy on the left! Darn her! :P


As previously stated, only a few decades ago, these people would have been denied treatment, as full passability in the would-be Sex was acquired to be judged as appropriate for transition.
And in the event that they would still have been able to get their treatment, they would not have lead a too easy post-life, except maybe for the third girl counted from the top, as she initially had fairly androgyne features already, and she had probably been considered fairly beautiful, although her before-look cannot in any way be compaired to the amazing after-result.

Most of these shots are from high angle, smiling, fem hair and with makeup after. Just makeup and a smile makes a HUGE difference. Honestly unless you have same expression etc you are comparing apples and oranges.

Quote from: Bishounen on February 07, 2012, 12:40:03 PM

And, not to forget, our very own Susan's member who's name I have so very unfortunately forgotten for the moment;(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi53.tinypic.com%2F2nqe446.png&hash=792ff7b413f40610a4c1f3ceb9e6331993b3e4c6)
I think that new broad on the right should be legally persecuted for doing away with that gorgeous guy on the left! Darn her! :P

OMG!  she turned out fantastically great! you're sure they are the same person right? I need FFS too now! *puts paper bag over her head*

Quote from: Stephe on February 07, 2012, 10:27:57 PM
Most of these shots are from high angle, smiling, fem hair and with makeup after. Just makeup and a smile makes a HUGE difference. Honestly unless you have same expression etc you are comparing apples and oranges.

I know you are trying to be nice and boosting peoples self esteem and hence pulls the "Natural is best" party line, which, in a way, is admireable, but at the same time, it is also a mocking of those people that truly suffered from their apparences to say that that only makeup and pretty hair would have done it, when anyone that is not blind can see that they, especially the older ones, literally looked like blokes before surgery. They looked like MEN.
If they had been lucky and learned makeup and hair, they could at the very best have passed for fairly "okay" Drag Queens, at most.

FFS are literally a lifesaver, and people that would have been doomed to a existence of mockery and isolation in the shadows of Society because of their looks, are now enabled to escape that fate and live a happy life in the open, as the persons they feel themselves to be instead of being mocked by the mirror aswell as the surrounding for the rest of their life.


It is not in their head, it is not because of makeup, it is not because of angles and no, all they have to do is not to "Just act female and the rest of the World will see them as women".

Quote from: Keaira on February 08, 2012, 02:06:06 AM
OMG!  she turned out fantastically great! you're sure they are the same person right? I need FFS too now! *puts paper bag over her head*

Oh yes, it is indeed the very same person! :)
She is as said a member on this very board, and I still cannot recall her name. :-\
But with alittle luck she makes herself known if she sees this.

I disagree Bishouen when you say the looked like "MEN"  I don't agree at all.   This woman in particular looks completely female to me in the before picture.   In the after picture she looks very strange to me.  Her face looks very unnatural and she looks somewhat mentally ill.    The before picture the woman looks like an athlete and the after picture she looks like an aging woman.  She looks unhealthy.

These are just pictures of course but if you asked me who the woman was I would say her on the left.  I can't believe you chose this as an example. I do agree that there are awesome examples of women who have FFS.    But this definitely isn't one of them.  I think she looked better before.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.t-change.com%2Fimg%2FFull-Facial-Feminization-2.jpg&hash=2df2a906b5585f2902fdd6a0a74cba8ec65eeb25)

Quote from: mixie on February 08, 2012, 08:58:52 AM
I disagree Bishouen when you say the looked like "MEN"  I don't agree at all.   This woman in particular looks completely female to me in the before picture.   In the after picture she looks very strange to me.  Her face looks very unnatural and she looks somewhat mentally ill.    The before picture the woman looks like an athlete and the after picture she looks like an aging woman.  She looks unhealthy.

Totally untrue and also an extremely disrespecting thing to say that she, when she have achieved her goal, looks mentally ill just because she went against Political Correctness and chose the knife instead of looking like a bag of wrinkles, which she very apparently did not wish to do, whether she would have passed or not.

She looks way better in the after-pic.

QuoteThese are just pictures of course but if you asked me who the woman was I would say her on the left.  I can't believe you chose this as an example.  I do agree that there are awesome examples of women who have FFS.    But this definitely isn't one of them.  I think she looked better before.

I really don't try to be difficult, but everyone on the board knows that you consider anyone as being "100% pass" as long as that person identifies as a female.
If that same person, on the other hand, would have looked exactly the same but had been a bio-female identifying as male, you would instead have said "100% Man".

Well i6's all relative isn't it?   I'm not saying my opinion is correct.   You have your view of what is attractive I have mine.   It is a bit disrespectful to say she looks mentally ill,   but i wasn't saying it in a disrespectful way or a snide way.  She actually looks sad and depressed to me in the after picture.  She doesn't look happy at all.   So I didn't mean anything more than that.   But in the before picture she looks like an energized healthy woman.   I do not agree at all that she looks better after.   Not at all.  And it has nothing to do with me not liking plastic surgery.  The last example in the set of pictures is an excellent example of beautiful FFS.

Quote from: Bishounen on February 07, 2012, 12:40:03 PM
Sometimes, yes, the changes are quite subtil, as there may only be minor things needed to change. Often times, the surrounding in the subtil cases cannot put the finger on what has happened and wonders if the person have had a facelift or began a new diet or such.

Other times, however, the changes are very noticeable and have truly worked incredible miracles and left the patient forever thankful.

Before and after; (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.drspiegel.com%2Fwp-content%2Fgallery%2Fffs%2Fy23.jpg&hash=5b9ebf8e47b3178aac135fca45bec0e367c72290)

Before and after;(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.t-change.com%2Fimg%2FFacial-Feminization-surgery-Before-and-after-4-A2.JPG&hash=3e0978c48e71d38dfaf457500ef4b49d39855735)
Before and after; (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.t-change.com%2Fimg%2FFacial-Feminization-surgery-3-front.JPG&hash=ee1633f12f8bfc70d8213b3a36774ca666323e2b)

Before and after; (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.t-change.com%2Fimg%2FFull-Facial-Feminization-2.jpg&hash=2df2a906b5585f2902fdd6a0a74cba8ec65eeb25)
Before and after; (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.t-change.com%2Fimg%2FFacial-feminization-before-after-2.jpg&hash=250357f1128049eae1bd4406c572c7a2c1a9d27d) Before and after; (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.t-change.com%2Fimg%2FFacial-feminization-before-after-1.jpg&hash=64ecd3a1ac898844c9dda096f2e1891e72d283bc)

Before and after; (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.drspiegel.com%2Fwp-content%2Fgallery%2Fffs%2Fzu.jpg&hash=a1a657c6fbbba88f0ac88448aa6b4ad0d7a9bd92)
Before and after; (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm3.static.flickr.com%2F2141%2F2396266325_455c065458.jpg&hash=4fa030bc877627f807deaeae6b46cbfdd916b411)

And, not to forget, our very own Susan's member who's name I have so very unfortunately forgotten for the moment;(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi53.tinypic.com%2F2nqe446.png&hash=792ff7b413f40610a4c1f3ceb9e6331993b3e4c6)
I think that new broad on the right should be legally persecuted for doing away with that gorgeous guy on the left! Darn her! :P


As previously stated, only a few decades ago, these people would have been denied treatment, as full passability in the would-be Sex was acquired to be judged as appropriate for transition.
And in the event that they would still have been able to get their treatment, they would not have lead a too easy post-life, except maybe for the third girl counted from the top, as she initially had fairly androgyne features already, and she had probably been considered fairly beautiful, although her before-look cannot in any way be compaired to the amazing after-result.

The third one from the bottom....the elderly lady wearing a red top in the 'before picture' and a white top and a dark brown jacket in the 'afterpic'...

I don't think that's the same person. In 'the afterpic' her eyes look smaller (from a canthopexy?) her eyebrows are lower and her nosetip too and that's not because she tilts her face a bit forward in the afterpic and backwards in the before pic.
Besides that the 'after pic' looks photoshopped to me...

The first set of pictures show an excellent result but....from a really hideous before pic and a gorgeous afterpic in nice, dimmed light, make up, a smile and a good wig.
Not photoshopped because of the bad teeth in the afterpic.

Mixie: Ah well, you only stated your opinion, and while I can actually agree that her eyes did look more energetic in the before-pic, I yet must nonetheless disagree that she overall looked better.
She looked more natural, yes, but definitely not better or more beautiful.

And she very apparently did not think so herself, either, and she apparently did not like aging, either.
Perhaps, because many older MTF's simply have a lot of things they feel they have missed out on, hence not feeling at home with their mature bodies and wishing to turn back the cosmetical clock a bit.

Anyway, we simply have to agree to disagree.*shrugs*


Dahlia: The pic of the lady with the red top, are indeed the same in the after-pic, and is lifted from the website of Dr. Spiegel;

QuoteThe photos below feature a handful of our patients before and after surgery.  Most photos are taken one day before surgery and within one year post-op.   Since Dr. Spiegel is able to customize each patient's surgical plan to help fit their aesthetic goals and their lifestyle no one surgery is alike.

The pics in question is to be found in the gallery below the text: http://www.drspiegel.com/ffs-surgery-photos/ (http://www.drspiegel.com/ffs-surgery-photos/)

*muffled from inside her paper bag*

well, despite my opinion over a set of photos, I'm still probably not going to have ffs. if I did, I'd have my hairline moved down, although I am seeing new hair growth where I've never seen it before. :D
But maybe wider eyes would be nice. its part of why I like glasses. to me my eyes look small and beady.. like GW Bush's did on his face :P

Quote from: Keaira on February 08, 2012, 10:43:20 AM
*muffled from inside her paper bag*

Peekaboo! :P  Aaaw.. No need to hide like that! :P

Quotewell, despite my opinion over a set of photos, I'm still probably not going to have ffs. if I did, I'd have my hairline moved down, although I am seeing new hair growth where I've never seen it before. :D
But maybe wider eyes would be nice. its part of why I like glasses. to me my eyes look small and beady.. like GW Bush's did on his face :P

Well, it is only you that can decide what makes you the most happy, for that is the main point, what makes you the most happy. In other words, forget the surrounding and such matters and only focus on your own needs.
If you feel that you would much prefer to stay 'natural', than to have procedures such as FFS, then that is what you should do(Stay naturelle). If not, then don't.

However if you do decide to fix your eyes, you can give your glasses to Bush afterwards. ;)

Quote from: Bishounen on February 08, 2012, 08:30:23 AM
I know you are trying to be nice and boosting peoples self esteem and hence pulls the "Natural is best" party line, which, in a way, is admireable, but at the same time, it is also a mocking of those people that truly suffered from their apparences to say that that only makeup and pretty hair would have done it, when anyone that is not blind can see that they, especially the older ones, literally looked like blokes before surgery.

First please don't tell me what I know and why I posted something OK?

And honestly the MAIN difference in most of the shorts is the have guys hair, zero makeup and are frowning. It's the same BS most plastic surgery sites do for GG's

Quote from: Bishounen on February 08, 2012, 08:30:23 AM
They looked like MEN.
If they had been lucky and learned makeup and hair, they could at the very best have passed for fairly "okay" Drag Queens, at most.

We'll never know because these shots are SET UP to make them look dramatically different. I could take off my makeup, my wig etc, frown and no one would know it's the same person..

Quote from: Bishounen on February 08, 2012, 08:30:23 AM
FFS are literally a lifesaver, and people that would have been doomed to a existence of mockery and isolation in the shadows of Society because of their looks, are now enabled to escape that fate and live a happy life in the open, as the persons they feel themselves to be instead of being mocked by the mirror aswell as the surrounding for the rest of their life.

Now you're saying unless you have FFS you are doomed. Sorry too many people here have lived full time without it and NEVER experienced anything like what you describe.

Quote from: Bishounen on February 08, 2012, 09:20:52 AM
Totally untrue and also an extremely disrespecting thing to say that she, when she have achieved her goal, looks mentally ill just because she went against Political Correctness and chose the knife instead of looking like a bag of wrinkles, which she very apparently did not wish to do, whether she would have passed or not.

She looks way better in the after-pic.

This is just YOUR opinion. Maybe you don't grasp not everyone will see this the same?

I'm sorry but I agree she WAY overdid the plastic surgery and looks strange now. Maybe -some- FFS would have helped but this is an example of bad plastic surgery. Wrinkles happen, most women have them so being a "bag of wrinkles" has nothing to do with passing.

Quote from: Bishounen on February 08, 2012, 10:09:22 AM
And she very apparently did not think so herself, either, and she apparently did not like aging, either.

Unless you know her, you are assuming she is happy with the results..

Quote from: Stephe on February 08, 2012, 05:56:58 PM
This is just YOUR opinion. Maybe you don't grasp not everyone will see this the same?

I'm sorry but I agree she WAY overdid the plastic surgery and looks strange now. Maybe -some- FFS would have helped but this is an example of bad plastic surgery. Wrinkles happen, most women have them so being a "bag of wrinkles" has nothing to do with passing.

A third vote for the before pic in that woman's case. She did look female before. Very natural and like many women her age. And her lovely blue eyes stood out far better there. The others are a different story, except maybe for the third girl, who really doesn't look much different.

Quote from: Bishounen on February 08, 2012, 09:20:52 AM
Totally untrue and also an extremely disrespecting thing to say that she, when she have achieved her goal, looks mentally ill just because she went against Political Correctness and chose the knife instead of looking like a bag of wrinkles, which she very apparently did not wish to do, whether she would have passed or not.

She looks way better in the after-pic.

I agree.  IMO she is not used to smiling, if she smiled, I think she would look better in the second photo. 

All the pics are a good representation of successful FFS.  Some are quite subtle while others are obviously more extreme, but IMO they all achieved great results.

I think it's unfair to criticize people who want to look beautiful as well as looking female.  As women age, they can start to look more masculine, that's why even cis women have surgery to remove the hardening of their features (not just wrinkles).

In some respects it is pandering to the masses, but it is a dog eat dog world, and 'beauty' does open doors.

Quote from: Hermione01 on February 08, 2012, 06:32:34 PM
I agree.  IMO she is not used to smiling, if she smiled, I think she would look better in the second photo. 

All the pics are a good representation of successful FFS.  Some are quite subtle while others are obviously more extreme, but IMO they all achieved great results.

I think it's unfair to criticize people who want to look beautiful as well as looking female.  As women age, they can start to look more masculine, that's why even cis women have surgery to remove the hardening of their features (not just wrinkles).

In some respects it is pandering to the masses, but it is a dog eat dog world, and 'beauty' does open doors.

  I agree and i'd like to say that full FFS is never subtle, it's only when you get a single procedure or two done that it looks subtle. If you can't see the differences in those after pic's then you must be on crack or you just refuse to admit it because you're jealous that you can't afford it which is the case most of the time. It's really sad that transwomen wanting to look as female as possible get nothing but negative remarks from the majority of the trans community.

  In this world a woman's worth is based on her looks alone and nothing else, it's sad but true.  :( 

Quote from: Danielle×o on February 08, 2012, 06:56:50 PM
  I agree and i'd like to say that full FFS is never subtle, it's only when you get a single procedure or two done that it looks subtle. If you can't see the differences in those after pic's then you must be on crack or you just refuse to admit it because you're jealous that you can't afford it which is the case most of the time.

Good grief..

No I'm not on drugs, but I don't see a huge difference in all of those pics if they are "full FFS".

I have had some cosmetic surgery, a single procedure and the results were far from subtle. I could afford to spend $100K on more if I wanted to, don't see the point.

So what the proponents of this seem to be saying is unless you agree with me your are high on drugs or jealous? O.o

I can find a dozen "before and after" shots for everything under the sun and 99% of the time they are frowning before, smiling after.

I'm not saying -some- FFS isn't helpful. I just feel most people cis and trans end up getting TOO much done.

Quote from: Stephe on February 08, 2012, 11:26:36 PM
Good grief..

I'm not saying -some- FFS isn't helpful. I just feel most people cis and trans end up getting TOO much done.

+1! Yes, cis women who had too much plastic surgery end up looking like MTF's. MTF's who had too much plastic surgery look like surgically created monsters...usuallly an FFS forehead is inconspicuous but the rest can be totally plastic looking.

Drawing a lot of negative attention.

Quote from: Stephe on February 08, 2012, 05:53:24 PM

And honestly the MAIN difference in most of the shorts is the have guys hair, zero makeup and are frowning. It's the same BS most plastic surgery sites do for GG's

Totally not true, and, you know it, too.

If you truly are saying that you cannot tell that atleast three of the persons on the photosets had very masculine facial features, then you are deliberately not telling the truth.

QuoteWe'll never know because these shots are SET UP to make them look dramatically different. I could take off my makeup, my wig etc, frown and no one would know it's the same person..

Okay, no true difference, then, and they did the best staying au naturelle, in other words? Yet that strategy seemed to not be enough for you, as I tend to recall that you fairly recently bragged about having feminized your nose with Rhinoplasty?

QuoteNow you're saying unless you have FFS you are doomed. Sorry too many people here have lived full time without it and NEVER experienced anything like what you describe.

Nope. I am saying that some people are indeed doomed unless they have Facial Surgery. You know it, and you have seen them and their threads where they are saying that they just cannot take living with their features any longer, are harrased repeatedly and are now considering suicide.

To pretend for Transpolitical Correctness sake that these people do not exist and will do just fine just without FFS, is mockery, and anyone that mocks these people are either totally non-caring or, lying their behinds of.
Especially if they fell for feminizing surgery themselves.

I dont think all of those women pictured looked better, some did but i gotta say its hard to tell what extent surgery played as they are all sadface before and happy face after which makes a big difference to femininity, also most of the "before" pics are not very well lit.

They all look younger though

Quote from: Stephe on February 08, 2012, 11:26:36 PM
Good grief..

I could afford to spend $100K on more if I wanted to, don't see the point.

Maybe you are not seeing the point because you simply don't understand some other peoples- that are not you- sufferings?

QuoteSo what the proponents of this seem to be saying is unless you agree with me your are high on drugs or jealous? O.o

I can find a dozen "before and after" shots for everything under the sun and 99% of the time they are frowning before, smiling after.

Okay, here is a re-post of pic of someone not frowning or doing any exaggerated expressions on either pic.
She was apparently not satisfied at all looking like her natural self, as her external look did not match her inner image of what she looked like.
According to your reasoning, she would have did "just fine" without any interventions whatsoever. According to her, you are wrong, as her inner image did not match the previous look and therefore decided to arrange so that those two selves matched.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi53.tinypic.com%2F2nqe446.png&hash=792ff7b413f40610a4c1f3ceb9e6331993b3e4c6)

I dont think stephe was tring to say that FFS was never successfull or that every one of those examples ended up being not worth the effort, you are twisting her words.

What is wrong with you Bishoen.  I think it is  very very inappropriate for you to post up a picture of a member on this site and then accuse people of making statements about them.  Stephe did not say at all what you are saying she said.  Obviously FFS or any form of plastic surgery is a personal choice.  There is not one right answer.    Trying to push one person's choice as the right choice for everyone else is wrong.  And so is your judgement that some transwomen who don't look "feminine" enough should get FFS or they will never pass.  That's just a ridiculous generalization.   

Quote from: Beverley on February 09, 2012, 10:13:50 AM
He is not smiling in the left pic, she is smiling in the right pic. A smile always makes someone look better

Ofcourse. :) However, that smile certainly had a drastic effect on the nose, wouldn't you say? ;)

QuoteBut how will we ever know? Maybe she *did* look OK without FFS but that is not what you are comparing here.

Oh I definitely think she looked more than okay in the before-pic, and definitely appearancewise a hot guy. However, apparently she did neither identify with, nor wanted to be, that hot guy.

QuoteYou are comparing a man to a woman and saying that FFS made the woman.

Not at all. In fact, I am not saying at all that FFS made the woman. The woman was already there. FFS merely brought that woman out, now when she was enabled to become one with the now matching exterior.

QuoteIf we had a pre-FFS of the woman just before surgery then your comparison would be a better one.

Why? Her opinion on what she needed done, apparently did not change, so what would a analysis over whether she "truly needed" it or not, do?

QuoteIf she wanted FFS and it made her feel better about herself then that is a judgement for her, but even so she may well have been a beautiful woman without FFS. She is certainly lovely now.

Beverley

And that is the only important thing; That she did it to feel herself.

We can assume the person in the first picture did not consider themselves to be "male" or they would not have had ffs.

It is rude to refer to the first picture as "He" and "man to a woman".

Quote from: mixie on February 09, 2012, 10:11:02 AM
What is wrong with you Bishoen. I think it is  very very inappropriate for you to post up a picture of a member on this site and then accuse people of making statements about them.

Now you are just being silly, Mixie. :P  Firstly, the member did upload the pic herself in a thread on FFS, right here at Susan's, as an example for others.

 

QuoteStephe did not say at all what you are saying she said.

Yes she did.   

QuoteObviously FFS or any form of plastic surgery is a personal choice.  There is not one right answer.    Tring to push one person's choice as the right choice for everyone else is wrong.

Yet you are doing the exact same?  I have certainly never in any thread seen you have anything nice to say about someone that have had a big amount of surgery, regardless of how that person turned out. I have, however, seen you often use descrptions such as that they look plastic, like blow up dolls, or mentally ill- And that in your very own words.

So, when you say things like; "Obviously FFS or any form of plastic surgery is a personal choice.  There is not one right answer.    Tring to push one person's choice as the right choice for everyone else is wrong.",  Then you are going against those very statements yourself by your own judgement over those that do make their personal choises.

QuoteAnd so is your judgement that some transwomen who don't look "feminine" enough should get FFS or they will never pass.  That's just a ridiculous generalization.

I have never ever said that some MTF's should get FFS. Never.
I am, however, defending their right to have such procedures without having to get judged by the Trans-politically correct lot.

Again: I am talking about the fate of some MTF's- not all- Big difference.
As long as there are people that with sugarcoated words are trying to belittle the experiences, sufferrings and needs of other Trans-persons, I will always defend those disabled trans-persons right to do so without having to be fed by mantras that they are "just fine" as it is, although they can't even put their foot outside of the door.

Quote from: Bishounen on February 09, 2012, 10:56:39 AM


Yet you are doing the exact same?  I have certainly never in any thread seen you have anything nice to say about someone that have had a big amount of surgery, regardless of how that person turned out. I have, however, seen you often use descrptions such as that they look plastic, like blow up dolls, or mentally ill- And that in your very own words.

So, when you say things like; "Obviously FFS or any form of plastic surgery is a personal choice.  There is not one right answer.    Tring to push one person's choice as the right choice for everyone else is wrong.",  Then you are going against those very statements yourself by your own judgement over those that do make their personal choises.

Well you are flat out lying  then.  Since I just said in this thread that the last picture the FFS was beautiful and the girl looks lovely. 

QuoteWell i6's all relative isn't it?   I'm not saying my opinion is correct.   You have your view of what is attractive I have mine.   It is a bit disrespectful to say she looks mentally ill,   but i wasn't saying it in a disrespectful way or a snide way.  She actually looks sad and depressed to me in the after picture.  She doesn't look happy at all.   So I didn't mean anything more than that.   But in the before picture she looks like an energized healthy woman.   I do not agree at all that she looks better after.   Not at all.  And it has nothing to do with me not liking plastic surgery.  The last example in the set of pictures is an excellent example of beautiful FFS

I think this whole thing is very rude to say the least.   I have also complemented Stephe on her FFS nose work.    So what in the world are you talking about.  I also think it is very wrong and rude of you to say that women looked like "MEN" in the before picture.   I'm really taken aback at your attitude.   My personal preference is that I don't like a look of unnatural plastic surgery on anyone.   I think Bruce Jenner,   Madonna and Calpernia all look overly PSed and it doesn't look attractive to me.  None of it has anything to do with being transgender or not.

Warning!

Knock off the "personal" comments, everyone.

This is a thread about passing, keep it at that.

Quote from: mixie on February 09, 2012, 11:25:48 AM
Well you are a flat out liar then.  Since I just said in this thread that the last picture the FFS was beautiful and the girl looks lovely.

I was referring to you statements historically.

QuoteI think this whole thing is very rude to say the least.   I have also complemented Stephe on her FFS nose work.

Ah, but that was subtle surgery, I was specifically referring to your histotrical attitudes towards extensive surgery.

QuoteSo what in the world are you talking about.

The attitude and unwillingness to accept those that do not want to, for instance, stay "natural".
I do know that you now think that; "People are willing to do what they want, but they still look like plastic blow up-dolls" which you ofcourse are fully entitled to think and I often think many people that have had truly too much surgery looks either grotesque or ridiculous, BUT, I never say so. Why? Because saying so is the very same attitude that Homophobes use when they say that; "People are allowed to be how gay they want to, as long as I don't have to see it".

That is the kind of attitude I am reacting on.

QuoteI also think it is very wrong and rude of you to say that women looked like "MEN" in the before picture.

It is nothing rude or wrong about that at all, as they did look like men, and apparently they thought so themselves, too.

Looking like a man, however, is not the same as being one.
Hence, if I would have said; "They were MEN", then that would have been an insult. However, I said that they were looking like men, and apparently too often a surrounding of a MTF with very male features, thinks so too, given the harrasments that male looking MTF's are exposed to when in the open.

  /quote]I'm really taken aback at your attitude.   My personal preference is that I don't like a look of unnatural plastic surgery on anyone.   I think Bruce Jenner,   Madonna and Calpernia all look overly PSed and it doesn't look attractive to me.  None of it has anything to do with being transgender or not.
[/quote]

Well, if going by your own reasoning, that it is every persons choise, then it must also be considered disrespectful to judge those persons that have chosen to dramatically alter their looks, in the way that you judge them.

Quote from: Sarah Louise on February 09, 2012, 11:44:15 AM
Warning!

Knock off the "personal" comments, everyone.

This is a thread about passing, keep it at that.

Sorry, I did not see this post until I had replied.
I will stop replying now.

The most disturbing part of this latest debate to me is someone using another members picture to make a point, admitting they don't even remember the persons name so obviously didn't get approval to use the pictures in such a way.

Now maybe she would be ok with it, maybe it's not against the rules, but the fact that it has happened without much care for the person in the pics, even with pronouns used, makes me wonder if I should ever consider posting once I get up the nerve to do so. I know I wouldn't want my personal pictures spread farther than where I myself post them.

The way I see it just because someone posts a pic of themselves on the board that doesn't give others free license to use it whenever they feel like it. As I said though I could be off base here, not sure how the mod's feel on the topic.

And this is not meant as an attack on anyone, just a concern I feel needs to be voiced.

Quote from: Amalina on February 09, 2012, 06:25:19 PM
The most disturbing part of this latest debate to me is someone using another members picture to make a point, admitting they don't even remember the persons name so obviously didn't get approval to use the pictures in such a way.

Now maybe she would be ok with it, maybe it's not against the rules, but the fact that it has happened without much care for the person in the pics, even with pronouns used, makes me wonder if I should ever consider posting once I get up the nerve to do so. I know I wouldn't want my personal pictures spread farther than where I myself post them.

The way I see it just because someone posts a pic of themselves on the board that doesn't give others free license to use it whenever they feel like it. As I said though I could be off base here, not sure how the mod's feel on the topic.

And this is not meant as an attack on anyone, just a concern I feel needs to be voiced.

I feel the exact same way.

Unfortunately once you put a picture on the web others can find the link and use it improperly.

Your right, no one should use a picture of anyone other than themselves without express permission.   We missed it or we would have removed the post.

We try to run a friendly and safe site, but things happen, we miss things, we don't act fast enough.  We do our best.

Quote from: Sarah Louise on February 09, 2012, 06:37:59 PM
Unfortunately once you put a picture on the web others can find the link and use it improperly.

Your right, no one should use a picture of anyone other than themselves without express permission.   We missed it or we would have removed the post.

We try to run a friendly and safe site, but things happen, we miss things, we don't act fast enough.  We do our best.

I totally understand the first sentence, it's really just more personal when the pic originates from the same forum. It kinda spreads it out more than a person may want it to, ya know?

Also I was more meaning the respect factor of other posters, I understand mod's can't do everything right away. I've been a mod and admin at various forums for years now and know it's a really hard job for a volunteer position. I try to respect mods a lot because of my experience, assuming they don't abuse powers which thankfully I haven't noticed here yet. :)

Just wanted to make clear I wasn't trying to harp on mods really, it may of came off that way if so I'm sorry. :icon_hug"

Quote from: Bishounen on February 09, 2012, 09:29:27 AM
Totally not true, and, you know it, too.

If you truly are saying that you cannot tell that at least three of the persons on the photosets had very masculine facial features, then you are deliberately not telling the truth.

What disturbs me is you can't seem to post your feelings without being then told what you think, what you really said and that you're a liar.  :P

How about having a pole of who

-   wants,
-   needs,
-   likes,
-   does not want,
-   does not like FFS ... in order to pass.

Could be interesting?

Axélle

I want FFS, but I think those that get it are like, cheating. I'm far more impressed if you are a 100%ish passable woman with hormones only. I want to be 100% passable but .. ick I got a ways to go lol.

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on February 10, 2012, 12:22:20 AM
I want FFS, but I think those that get it are like, cheating. I'm far more impressed if you are a 100%ish passable woman with hormones only. I want to be 100% passable but .. ick I got a ways to go lol.

I don't think it's "cheating" at all. People look different. It's just stupid genetics and out of our hands. I pass well without FFS but that doesn't make me proud or anything. It's sheer dumb luck which is an odd thing to be proud of.

I find it strange that everyone is assuming the only reason people get FFS is to pass. Most of the girls in my age range who have it done are already easily passable. They get FFS 'cause they are uncomfortable with themselves, not 'cause of social issues. I personally had no passing issues before I had any work done.

And I totally agree it is cheating. Awesome, awesome cheating. Just like SRS is cheating. And hormones are cheating. And every single medical and surgical intervention is cheating.

I relate far, far better to the image I see in the mirror now than I did before I transitioned.

I am a very happy artificial construct. I tried "natural." It sucks.

Quote from: Sarah7 on February 10, 2012, 08:08:32 AM
I find it strange that everyone is assuming the only reason people get FFS is to pass. Most of the girls in my age range who have it done are already easily passable. They get FFS 'cause they are uncomfortable with themselves, not 'cause of social issues. I personally had no passing issues before I had any work done.

And I totally agree it is cheating. Awesome, awesome cheating. Just like SRS is cheating. And hormones are cheating. And every single medical and surgical intervention is cheating.

I relate far, far better to the image I see in the mirror now than I did before I transitioned.

I am a very happy artificial construct. I tried "natural." It sucks.

I like you more now.

Cheating isnt the right word i guess... its just like...

When im looking on youtube for some assurance that even i could look pretty 1 day, if they had FFS i dont even want to watch the vids because i think "well your change isnt as impressive". Nothing against these girls, im gonna go for ffs too if i can! But it just kinda sucks the "omg awesome!!" Out of it, i guess.

The ones who don't have FFS I think, have to work a little harder to pass. But there again, FFS is not a guarintee, but another part of the whole presentation. What I'd get done is minor and one of those 'If I had the money' things that you wish for. In all honesty, even as I am, I'm happier than I've ever been. And that's more important to me than what others think of me. I can look in the mirror and see the real me. I've taken more photos of myself in 10 months than I ever have in my entire life, I come in to work with a smile on my face and people have noticed I smile a lot more.

And that attitude goes an extremely long way.

Yeah people notice smiles.
A lot of people.

Quote from: Keaira on February 10, 2012, 05:27:59 PM
The ones who don't have FFS I think, have to work a little harder to pass. But there again, FFS is not a guarintee, but another part of the whole presentation. What I'd get done is minor and one of those 'If I had the money' things that you wish for. In all honesty, even as I am, I'm happier than I've ever been. And that's more important to me than what others think of me. I can look in the mirror and see the real me. I've taken more photos of myself in 10 months than I ever have in my entire life, I come in to work with a smile on my face and people have noticed I smile a lot more.

And that attitude goes an extremely long way.

Stop reading my mind Keaira... Except I couldn't give a pair of fetid dingo's kidneys for any kind of FFS..

Quote from: kelly_aus on February 11, 2012, 09:17:20 AM
Stop reading my mind Keaira... Except I couldn't give a pair of fetid dingo's kidneys for any kind of FFS..

:P well, what can I say? it's true.

I'm thinking of getting some FFS, like to remove the eyebrow ridge. Yuck!
I've always hated that part of my face.

Whatever floats your boat.

Beauty comes in many packages and the most beautiful faces people agree upon are slightly andro.

You may not like your brow, but girl, I bet 90%+ people here envy your natural beauty. If you take all your maleness away, you may overcompensate.

I would certainly give the HRT a bit more time if I were you... but I am not.

That said, I hate my ridge more than my receding hair.

Maybe they do, I just don't like the brow.
Everything else is perfectly fine for me though. :)

Just that damn brow, mostly because my brother used to make fun of me for it...
So I feel self conscious about that.

Quote from: Stephe on February 08, 2012, 05:56:58 PM


Wrinkles happen, most women have them so being a "bag of wrinkles" has nothing to do with passing.

Yes, it does. Heavy wrinkles and saggings have a masculinising effect.

Take a look at older women with heavily wrinkled and sagging faces. That, and thinning hair too, makes them look like older men.

Regarding the whole picture issue. There are deterrents you can put in the site to prevent the average computer user from saving pics

Quote from: mixie on February 09, 2012, 10:11:02 AM
What is wrong with you Bishoen.  I think it is  very very inappropriate for you to post up a picture of a member on this site and then accuse people of making statements about them.  Stephe did not say at all what you are saying she said.  Obviously FFS or any form of plastic surgery is a personal choice.  There is not one right answer.    Trying to push one person's choice as the right choice for everyone else is wrong.  And so is your judgement that some transwomen who don't look "feminine" enough should get FFS or they will never pass.  That's just a ridiculous generalization.

^ this, couldn't agree more.
FFS is a choice, it is something you do for you not anyone else.
If you feel you want it because it will help you feel more confident or just plain happier then there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. (my experience)
This journey is such a personal one, we are all individuals with different needs and wants, I think people forget that sometimes - just because we are all trans doesn't mean we are all the same. Better to be respectful of others choices and ideals.

Jay-Bird