One year, five months on T. I felt pretty good today, went out with my little brother to get him some food since my mom wanted him to get out of the house. Went to a 7-11, wore an awesome in season check shirt, bound my chest really nice, wore jeans that fit....go to pay for his drink, and I did speak. The cashier misgendered me a few times, as did the other employee.
Here's a my reaction in gif form:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_lzelq7fqk51qdsjb2.gif&hash=6d948668ab3c26bb680d09e47ef9782a1e9e74e1)
Sorry to hear that Nygeel. I thought the facial hair would help.
Ugh. I wish I knew what to say besides I'm sorry this keeps happening to you. I watched your recent vid (and voted as well) and I don't see why this is continuing. The only thing I can think of is some inflections in your voice sound a little feminine. But I know you aren't going for the typical masculine presentation anyway, so I don't really consider that. I suppose other people who don't know you might.
Do you correct people when they misgender you? A quick "I'm a guy" can usually, hopefully end the "she"s and "her"s.
Quote from: Adio on April 14, 2012, 02:18:08 PM
Ugh. I wish I knew what to say besides I'm sorry this keeps happening to you. I watched your recent vid (and voted as well) and I don't see why this is continuing. The only thing I can think of is some inflections in your voice sound a little feminine. But I know you aren't going for the typical masculine presentation anyway, so I don't really consider that. I suppose other people who don't know you might.
Do you correct people when they misgender you? A quick "I'm a guy" can usually, hopefully end the "she"s and "her"s.
I generally don't correct people if they are people I don't think I'll see again, or that I'll see so rarely that I don't feel they will remember me. Or if I'm in a potentially dangerous position.
Quote from: Nygeel on April 14, 2012, 02:44:02 PM
I generally don't correct people if they are people I don't think I'll see again, or that I'll see so rarely that I don't feel they will remember me. Or if I'm in a potentially dangerous position.
Understood. I do the same when people assume I'm straight. If they are some random person, I don't bother with it. Or if I think it would be dangerous to come out, I don't say anything either. Not quite the same, but I still get what you're saying.
I would correct them.
That's what I think most cis-guys would do, even if they weren't going to see the person again.
Quote from: JasonRX on April 14, 2012, 08:31:43 PM
I would correct them.
That's what I think most cis-guys would do, even if they weren't going to see the person again.
Yeah you should have been like "Umm...i'm a dude" :eusa_eh:
I may get ripped by some of the younger guys for saying this, but I'm guessing it's the earrings (and to a lesser extent, the glasses) that are getting you misgendered so much. I'm not saying you should change your style just to pass better. It's just that most people who see earrings are going to automatically think "girl" before re-evaluating that first impression based on your other characteristics.
Quote from: driven on April 14, 2012, 10:17:58 PM
I may get ripped by some of the younger guys for saying this, but I'm guessing it's the earrings (and to a lesser extent, the glasses) that are getting you misgendered so much.
I also have glasses and plugs; I've yet to be misgendered by a stranger.
My hair is also a lot longer than Nygeel's right now.
Honestly, I think there is a lot more to his problem than that.
Sadly, I'm not entirely sure what the main source of his problem is though.
That sucks bro. It's obviously either a height or hips problem, because your vids and pics are 100% male. The second you open your voice they should be apologizing like crazy, so I don't get it. I'd throw a simple "I'm a dude." out there. Maybe a comment about your height and make people feel like asses for it because you're a guy. You look like a guy and people should refer to you as such, I think that's more safe than anything.
It's not gonna be like, "Hello ma'am!" "I'm a dude." "Oh my gosh you're one of those transgenders!" (and if it was) "No I'm short you ->-bleeped-<-ing weirdo." "OMG I'm so sorry what can I get you for free before you get the manager and I get fired!"
It's just, "I'm a dude." and they'll get red and be embarrassed.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fa7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ak-snc7%2Fp480x480%2F429702_10150715786646002_698796001_11720413_1994876063_n.jpg&hash=387b116a32e71b5317f63e4f26ed1360938a34b9)
I don't think it's hips. And they're plugs, not earrings. D: you can see through my ear. I can't not wear glasses (contacts are weird) and...idk, I think they match me. It's like Sally Jesse Raphael with her red frames. Correcting strangers is a new concept for me. It's also scary as hell. I'm still in a position where I'm not using the men's room because of how often I'm misread.
When I'm out with supportive friends it's easier. My friends do the correcting for me and it makes me feel warm happiness through my body.
Quote from: Nygeel on April 14, 2012, 11:47:25 PM
When I'm out with supportive friends it's easier. My friends do the correcting for me and it makes me feel warm happiness through my body.
This is good ^. I was out with a friend a couple weeks ago and we were leaving the restaurant and one of the greeters said, "Have a good night ladies" and my friend turned around and said, "he's no lady!" and laughed lol.
Even though I'm only in "guy mode" with certain friends or in places where no one knows who I am, I still get misgendered. One of my friends pointed out that it seems a lot of people will error on the side of female, because they feel a female being mistaken for a male would be more offensive to them. As to what the big tip offs are, if I had balls I'd actually ask people, "what makes you think I'm female?" just to see what they say!
I think part of the problem is that there are so many women who are cutting their hair short, and or smoke, look rough or like a butch lesbian that it's getting harder to identify men from women or vise versa. If you live in an area where there's a lot of Butch-looking women then that's going to make a shopkeeper really look at you too.
To me, you look fine. Just a regular guy. How's your body language or your walk? something is getting you clocked and your friends might be able to see what it is.
EDIT:
I had my wife take a look at your photo. She say's it's your facial shape. You have what they call a 'baby face'. So it makes you look like an adolescent teen or a woman. She suggested some different glasses and a different hair style.
I hope that may be of some help to you.
i think if one more person tells Nygeel to change his hair and/or glasses he's going to flip the f out. it's not him or his features, it's society. i guess the only thing that will do it is copious amounts of facial hair, so you unfortunately have to play the waiting game.
I think my current hair style is maybe the 40th on I've had since coming out/presenting as male. When picking out my glasses it took me maybe 2 hours to set myself on those frames. Dead. Serious. When I had the Pompadour my glasses looked fantastic with the style. I sort of think that I'd be seen as male more if I fem'd it up a bit. I mean, masculine women (in theory) would avoid walking like Peggy Bundy. It might soon be time to cover myself in glitter.
Anyways...not much can be done about my face. I kind of like my face. But uh...if somebody says lose weight I will be not happy. Lost like 45 lbs and don't intend on losing more (it doesn't seem like a legitimate variable).
Should I get a Brian Wilson beard or a Rollie Fingers moustache?
Quote from: Nygeel on April 15, 2012, 01:08:35 AM
I sort of think that I'd be seen as male more if I fem'd it up a bit. I mean, masculine women (in theory) would avoid walking like Peggy Bundy. It might soon be time to cover myself in glitter.
you might be right. why not try it out somewhere? aim to be seen as a femme gay man and see what happens.
I might sound silly for this but...have you gotten you T levels checked?
Maybe somethings off. I don't know.
Quote from: JasonRX on April 14, 2012, 08:31:43 PM
I would correct them.
That's what I think most cis-guys would do, even if they weren't going to see the person again.
This.
Quote from: KyleXX on April 15, 2012, 12:53:21 AM
i think if one more person tells Nygeel to change his hair and/or glasses he's going to flip the f out. it's not him or his features, it's society. i guess the only thing that will do it is copious amounts of facial hair, so you unfortunately have to play the waiting game.
I didn't invent the rules of the game. But something is getting him misgendered.
If I want to pass as female, I have to do everything I can to walk, talk, look and just be a woman. But demanding that society changes or waiting for that day isn't going to get me anywhere. If you wanted to convey that you were a die-hard punk rock fan, you wouldn't emulate Justin Bieber! I'm not saying he isn't trying. It may be he needs to go though a process of elimination.
I'm not trying to be mean or anything but what if he's one of these unlucky guys who barely gets any peach fuzz? T is just another tool in the toolbox, same with Estrogen. I know guys who barely have to shave and some who look like Hagrid. And I didn't even grow any facial hair until I was in my 20's!
I mean would you believe I was a woman if I looked like this and told you I was one? (extreme example)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi688.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fvv246%2FKeairaElisabeth%2FPhoto0308.jpg&hash=bdf03f87d5a3401e12fc07342c94967229c2efcf)
Just make-up?
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi688.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fvv246%2FKeairaElisabeth%2FKeaira%2FAvi1.jpg&hash=0a487da8779dba725cb6bcdb64e697948b5db8ea)
If I look like this then I have a good chance.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi688.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fvv246%2FKeairaElisabeth%2Fphoto-45.jpg&hash=f9d6cc5dcd356a82e803171ee5e44b87cdec8be5)
I've grown my hair out, changed my glasses I wear make-up... the whole 9 yards but I still have visible facial hair. I can't cover it because the heat gets so intense at work my face would look like it's melting.
I walked into Subway today and the cashier said "What can I get you Ma'am?" She based my gender on all the visual cues presented. If you say it's because of my boob's you'd be wrong. Because i was wearing a baggy fleece jacket that was partly zipped up, and I was in my work uniform.
I believe in Nygeel! Just in the few posts of his I have read I think he's a great guy and I want to see him finally post one day: IT'S BEEN X AMOUNT OF TIME AND I HAVEN'T BEEN MISGENDERED!
Nygeel, if you're happy with your hair, try wearing a baseball cap see how it goes. and ask your friends too. they are there in real time and able to take notes and give suggestions.
@Keaira: It might not be my place to say, but I don't think it's a matter of not wanting to change things. Nygeel has changed things, many times over. I can't even count the number of different hairstyles I've seen in the "Do I Pass?" thread. I think 40th time as he said is likely very close lol
@Nygeel: You probably don't care much about what I think, but I see you as a guy. To be honest, I didn't always view your presentation that way. But over time, you have appeared more and more male to me. It makes me angry that other people can't see you for whom you really are. I liked your pomp. Kind of wish you had stuck with it, but you should do what makes you happy. Too many unhappy people in this world.
My thing is that I've been presenting as male as much as possible for maybe 7 or 8 years now. I've gone to my comfort limit in search of ways to present to make me get seen as male. Some of these things have included shaving my head, not apologizing, wearing excessively big clothing, losing weight, walking like a cave man, always having a furrowed brow, clenching my jaw constantly, going over my eyebrows with pencils, talking negatively about women, not being around transgender friends, answering questions with grunts, and watch more sports.
Most of those were things I was uncomfortable with because of personal morals and not wanting to lose who I am. I like dressing fancy, hate wearing caps (they go with nothing I own now and cover my fantastic hairline). I like having color in my voice when I talk. I like that I squeek and jump up and down when I'm really excited. I like my big round hairy belly...it's fun to cuddle when I sleep. I like wearing bright colors and strange patterns. I like how fantastic I look sporting a pompadour. I'm starting to get to a place where I like who I am. It seems disingenuous to try to behave in a way I'm not comfortable with.
Why can't I love punk and not feel ashamed to sing along to Justin Bieber? Looking at your pictures I believe you look like a woman in all of them. And that unless those are reading glasses you should probably get ones that are shorter from ear to rim.
Why can't I be a punk fan while.singing
@Adio, I think his friends that he hangs out with are in the best position to help. we're limited to digital media. Like I said, I think he passes fine. I like his look too! I just think we're missing something because of our limited ability to see him in his element.
Nygeel, I would like to hear some punk rock Justin Beiber. that would be interesting. Like death metal Ice Ice Baby. and no, like you I have to wear glasses all the time. and I dont mind at all. Make's me look smarter than I really am. And if you see a woman in the first 2 pictures then you see me better than the general public ever did.
Unfortunately I'm about to fall asleep. You seem like a fun guy to hang out with. Quite the opposite of the guys around here. I look forward to continuing this again. And you don't have to match hats to your outfit. ;)
Friends have no idea how people see me as female...which (IMO) means they see me completely as male without any question.
I see a woman because I take what people say about their gender at face value. If you had a full beard and said you're a woman then you are.
Quote from: Nygeel on April 15, 2012, 03:13:50 AM
I see a woman because I take what people say about their gender at face value. If you had a full beard and said you're a woman then you are.
Lol. The world doesn't think like that.
Quote from: Jayr on April 15, 2012, 01:53:41 PM
Lol. The world doesn't think like that.
I'm not the world.
What I mean is people don't think that way.
Just like Kearia said ''demanding that society changes or waiting for that day isn't going to get me anywhere.''
Sometimes it's either you act yourself and not pass, or you act differently and pass.
That's a personal preference.
Your picture passes to me. Completely. Yes you have a baby face but I still think you pass.
Which makes me think it's your manners that stop you from passing.
It has to be something the picture doesn't show Nygeel. To my eyes you look fine. Of course my brain is programed to see you as male after knowing you for 1+ years on this forum. So that could be a contributing factor in my evaluation. A beard will help but nothing short of lumberjack will be hundred percent I don't think. It's more then the way we look, it's in the way we act. Projecting as a man, always confident and in-control even if he doesn't feel it, is hard and draining work. However that's what people expect to see.
I was misgendered myself, recently. I was buying training pants for my daughter at Babies R Us. When I asked for help locating them I was given the floor manager. She was rushed out of her head dealing with her teenage work staff. She rushed me to the corner and called me Ma'am. It was so unexpected I almost laughed honestly. When I answered her in a deep voice it was her turn to look shocked. Then she took a closer look, saw the beard and got even more flustered but didn't apologize. Honestly I wasn't all that bothered about it and had forgotten about it before your post reminded me. There was plenty of contributing factors. It was probably feminine of me to even ask where the damn things were.
Of all the places I go where I get confused looks the most is Babies R' Us. Apparently men don't buy diapers. Even though I see other father's there all the time.
Quote from: Jayr on April 15, 2012, 02:59:11 PM
No ->-bleeped-<- Sherlock.
What I mean is people don't think that way.
Just like Kearia said ''demanding that society changes or waiting for that day isn't going to get me anywhere.''
Sometimes it's either you act yourself and not pass, or you act differently and pass.
That's a personal preference.
Your picture passes to me. Completely. Yes you have a baby face but I still think you pass.
Which makes me think it's your manners that stop you from passing.
His profile picture is really old, Jayr. I sort of wonder why he hasn't changed it yet, because it isn't a very good representation of how he currently looks.
I do agree with everything you're saying though and also how Nygeel's outlook is a little unrealistic.
He can think whatever way he wants to, but the truth of the matter is most people don't think that way and therefore may find it hard to truly understand his way of thinking.
Quote from: Jayr on April 15, 2012, 02:59:11 PM
What I mean is people don't think that way.
Just like Kearia said ''demanding that society changes or waiting for that day isn't going to get me anywhere.''
Sometimes it's either you act yourself and not pass, or you act differently and pass.
That's a personal preference.
Your picture passes to me. Completely. Yes you have a baby face but I still think you pass.
Which makes me think it's your manners that stop you from passing.
I've done both (acting completely differently, as myself, and some middle way). It just hasn't happened to me yet. I've changed my mannerisms as much as I can but either way, doesn't happen.
Eventually I will be seen as male. I might need to grow out a Brian Wilson beard but it'll happen.
Quote from: Squirrel698 on April 15, 2012, 03:07:53 PM
Of all the places I go where I get confused looks the most is Babies R' Us. Apparently men don't buy diapers. Even though I see other father's there all the time.
I used to work (Sort of) at a Babies R Us...I liked working with the kids more than the parents. For me, I usually don't get seen as male.
I'm just throwing ideas out there.
But a month ago I had plugs. Tunnels. Whenever I was mis gendered, I would correct them, and often they would say ''Oh sorry, it's cause of the earrings.'' I know they aren't earrings but people didn't seem to get that. So last month I dropped my stretches.
I'm pre-T by the way.
Funny. I have plugs and maybe I should drop them. I just don't want them to close up. Although, I'm being misgendered less and less now.
When I look at you from the neck down, I see a pretty average dude. I don't think it's the plugs or glasses, those are styles I've seen quite often. The hair isn't the problem, but I think it's your hair line that makes me hesitate and see a possible female? That's one thing that can't really be changed overnight though, I dunno. Your hair line looks masculine in your profile picture, but from that front angle, it looks a bit feminine. I've not heard you speak, but yeah...I'm sorry people keep misgendering you though. It sucks like hell. :/
Darrin if you're passing more and more, I'd say keep them!
It's just some people can't pull them off, like me right now xD
HAIRLINE COMPARISON!
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F29.media.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_m2jh5dO4aG1qal7xro1_500.jpg&hash=df0c274b6d442568a17b26138751b54254d899fc)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F29.media.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_m1tyviqYr21qal7xro1_500.jpg&hash=ed498d3202a050d0598596ec8e2e1daf2023941c)
Sucks how this still happens to you. In the video you posted a few weeks back i thought you passed just fine, especially voice- and mannerism-wise.
The one thing that strikes me about the current full-body photo you posted is that your clothing style doesn't completely match up with your glasses, plugs and hairstyle. Depending on where you live, i could totally see longer hair and a more daring outfit work with the plugs and glasses....or else your current clothing style with some uber-male glasses (square + metal frames) and no plugs.
(When doing a google search on guy with plugs, most of their styles are quite consistent - skinny jeans and tees, longer hair etc.)
Other than that, I'm clueless....especially since your voice passes so well.
Here are some guys with plugs that are pretty darn dapper looking (how I would like to dress).
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F28.media.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_lavs4bx49F1qc4814o1_500.jpg&hash=dc7477563aaf90500d5cf6dd4cae124d67464837)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F26.media.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_lkm8jaxGbk1qic2a1o1_500.jpg&hash=84be1f01e431e22ea3b801bc0de31b782d7edbe9)
The jeans I'm wearing are (Surprisingly) skinny jeans...or maybe they're just a slim cut. Skinny jeans don't look right on me as a chubby guy.
Quote from: Darrin on April 15, 2012, 03:44:00 PM
Funny. I have plugs and maybe I should drop them. I just don't want them to close up. Although, I'm being misgendered less and less now.
I say keep them. I find plain stainless steel tunnels are the most simple and masculine looking and I've never gotten misgendered with my plugs being mentioned as the reason.
v_v
I didn't say plugs were bad.
I said some of us can't pull them off.
Geez you guys don't have to invalidate what I say.
What ticks me off the most is that you, Nygeel, are complaining about not passing but when someone gives you tips you put them off. Guess what, those guys in the pictures are most likely cis and if not, T was freaking kind to them. You don't have that privileged. Why put chips against yourself? Like seriously, you wanna pass, put all the chips on your side.
Quote from: Jayr on April 15, 2012, 06:14:34 PM
v_v
I didn't say plugs were bad.
I said some of us can't pull them off.
Geez you guys don't have to invalidate what I say.
What ticks me off the most is that you, Nygeel, are complaining about not passing but when someone gives you tips you put them off. Guess what, those guys in the pictures are most likely cis and if not, T was freaking kind to them. You don't have that privileged. Why put chips against yourself? Like seriously, you wanna pass, put all the chips on your side.
I'm frustrated with being seen as female constantly. It is frustrating. I never asked for tips on how to pass (although that's what these threads often turn into), just wanted to vent about a situation that happened.
What chips? Look, here's the situation...I got bad genes or something where I have great difficulty being seen as male. I already wrote some of the things people have told me will help, and for me the things that I've had done haven't really made a difference.
It's a matter of effort vs result...currently I've maxed out my effort with no result so I'm currently at a point where I'm just going to try to do what I feel is right for who I am. Finding what I feel is what I can do to make people see me as me while still maintaining who I am...finding that balance between being a completely different person and fitting all sorts of stereotypes and being myself.
Quote from: Jayr on April 15, 2012, 06:14:34 PM
v_v
I didn't say plugs were bad.
I said some of us can't pull them off.
Geez you guys don't have to invalidate what I say.
What ticks me off the most is that you, Nygeel, are complaining about not passing but when someone gives you tips you put them off. Guess what, those guys in the pictures are most likely cis and if not, T was freaking kind to them. You don't have that privileged. Why put chips against yourself? Like seriously, you wanna pass, put all the chips on your side.
Why are you being so hostile? No one is invalidating you, we are simply discussing our experiences in regards to our plugs.
Also I don't think Nygeel came here for advice, just to vent.
Because the second I said plugs might not help, it was invalidated.
Yes, I love plugs. But it doesn't help some of us. I was just saying.
I'm not retarded, I know some guys can look HOT with them and pass fine.
By chips, I mean put all the chances on your side too pass. Don't put anything against you.
Ear piercings can feminize people.
But you're right, you didn't ask for advice. So my bad.
I assumed you wanted them. Sorry. Keep on venting.
Quote from: Jayr on April 15, 2012, 06:30:25 PM
Because the second I said plugs might not help, it was invalidated.
Yes, I love plugs. But it doesn't help some of us. I was just saying.
I'm not retarded, I know some guys can look HOT with them and pass fine.
By chips, I mean put all the chances on your side too pass. Don't put anything against you.
Ear piercings can feminize people.
But you're right, you didn't ask for advice. So my bad.
I assumed you wanted them. Sorry. Keep on venting.
Plugs were mentioned twice before you posted. In previous conversations they've been mentioned many many times before.
The issue with what you're saying is that there's no one way to do what you're saying. I've been experimenting with most every aspect of my appearance for years.
And please, could you cut the language.
Quote from: Jayr on April 15, 2012, 06:30:25 PM
Because the second I said plugs might not help, it was invalidated.
Yes, I love plugs. But it doesn't help some of us. I was just saying.
I'm not retarded, I know some guys can look HOT with them and pass fine.
By chips, I mean put all the chances on your side too pass. Don't put anything against you.
Ear piercings can feminize people.
But you're right, you didn't ask for advice. So my bad.
I assumed you wanted them. Sorry. Keep on venting.
Like me.
;D
lolololjk.Well, about the hot thing, not the passing.
Quote from: Nygeel on April 15, 2012, 06:37:39 PM
And please, could you cut the language.
I only cursed once. But okay.
Quote from: JasonRX on April 15, 2012, 06:39:05 PM
Like me.
;D
lolololjk.
Well, about the hot thing, not the passing.
You won't believe me but I had you in mind.
XD
Quote from: JasonRX on April 15, 2012, 06:39:05 PM
Like me.
;D
lolololjk.
Well, about the hot thing, not the passing.
I think you and Jayr are both hot with plugs.
Orgy.
Quote from: Jayr on April 15, 2012, 06:42:11 PM
I only cursed once. But okay.
You won't believe me but I had you in mind.
XD
Surprisingly, I shall try to.
:)
Quote from: JoeyD on April 15, 2012, 06:42:34 PM
I think you and Jayr are both hot with plugs.
Orgy.
o.o
*puts them back in!*
Quote from: Jayr on April 15, 2012, 06:42:11 PM
I only cursed once. But okay.
Pretty sure Nygeel means your use of a slur that is commonly directed at people with intellectual disabilities.
Quote from: JoeyD on April 15, 2012, 06:49:32 PM
That was mature. Don't come to our area of the forum if you're going to try and push someone's buttons, it's not nice. Can we get back to making Nygeel feel better about his unfortunate situation?
Quote from: KyleXX on April 15, 2012, 07:01:01 PM
That was mature. Don't come to our area of the forum if you're going to try and push someone's buttons, it's not nice. Can we get back to making Nygeel feel better about his unfortunate situation?
SURE BUD.
She was being funny.
Chill.
You're both right, I'm such an a$$hole ::)
Quote from: KyleXX on April 15, 2012, 07:12:42 PM
You're both right, I'm such an a$$hole ::)
Woah bro, woah.
We never said that bro.
CHILL BRO :(
i'm completely calm and laughing my a$$ off. i love how people get online, ohhh it's the internet, i can say whatever i want yayy! you'd think people would want to stay positive whenever possible since this is a support forum. oh well.
Nygeel, one day you'll look back on this shizzy time and laugh. You pass 100% in pictures, so it will happen regularly eventually. Hold on bro, I wish I could do more.
Peace.
Huh?
What was that about?
o.o
And I agree! Maybe you're just a late bloomer.
Whoa, let's not be abrasive. I'm detecting some madness around here.
Anyways, Nygeel, I've always thought you've passed in pictures, even with my hyper aware of small things kind of brain. It might just be how you carry yourself or something I think once you get some facial hair there will be no question, because you look male to me, no matter what you wear. I dunno, just my opinion, man.
:police:
Hi friends
Let keep the conversation civil and supportive, watch the language and/or disparaging comments
Thank you
V M
Quote from: Nygeel on April 15, 2012, 02:51:57 AM
I'm starting to get to a place where I like who I am. It seems disingenuous to try to behave in a way I'm not comfortable with.
Then why let people misgendering you bother you now? If you're getting to that place where you're happy with yourself and comfortable with yourself, other people's interpretations shouldn't sway you.
Quote from: insideontheoutside on April 15, 2012, 10:25:50 PM
Then why let people misgendering you bother you now? If you're getting to that place where you're happy with yourself and comfortable with yourself, other people's interpretations shouldn't sway you.
+1
Quote from: insideontheoutside on April 15, 2012, 10:25:50 PM
Then why let people misgendering you bother you now? If you're getting to that place where you're happy with yourself and comfortable with yourself, other people's interpretations shouldn't sway you.
Well, it's possible to be comfortable with who you are but at the same time frustrated with people's inability to see the true you. And I think it's the fact that it's happening more often than not for nygeel. He's done all of these things to improve his "passability" but has had little success. After a certain point what more can you do? I would think it's a very tough place to be in. And plus it's more than just not letting other people's interpretations bother you because you can't really be yourself socially when people are treating you like a female when you're not. Not to say that people are treated worse as females, it's just a very different experience (at least it has been for me).
Quote from: lexical on April 15, 2012, 10:53:03 PM
Well, it's possible to be comfortable with who you are but at the same time frustrated with people's inability to see the true you. And I think it's the fact that it's happening more often than not for nygeel. He's done all of these things to improve his "passability" but has had little success. After a certain point what more can you do? I would think it's a very tough place to be in. And plus it's more than just not letting other people's interpretations bother you because you can't really be yourself socially when people are treating you like a female when you're not. Not to say that people are treated worse as females, it's just a very different experience (at least it has been for me).
Trust me, I know. I never even transitioned. That's my choice and after years of doing that, when I am in "guy mode" out and people do not refer to me as male it can be frustrating, but only if I let it be frustrating. If I'm already having a bad day or there's other factors, I could let it get to me. But it's all up to me. If I know what I am, it really doesn't matter what people are calling me. I don't have to grow a beard or talk about sports or wear clothes I don't like just to be me. I already am me, inside and out.
Nygeel is one step farther than me because he actually chose to transition, so technically it should matter even less. If you're on the hormones, you're changing your I.D., you're living as male, and you're comfortable, then no one else can tell you who you are. If you want to allow them to, that's your business. If you want to let it get to you, that's your business. If you want to ignore it and just go on with your life, that's also your business.
Nygeel, I don't understand how people can look at you and see a woman. I mean, seriously, what's up with that? Sadly I have no idea how to fix it other than to let the T keep on doing its stuff. Perhaps you should try and correct people, standing there and taking it is usually seen as more feminine, I suppose. But that's a pretty hypocritical thing for me to say considering I never correct people when they misgender me, I just silently curse them inside my mind and walk away.
Quote from: insideontheoutside on April 15, 2012, 11:42:34 PM
Trust me, I know. I never even transitioned. That's my choice and after years of doing that, when I am in "guy mode" out and people do not refer to me as male it can be frustrating, but only if I let it be frustrating. If I'm already having a bad day or there's other factors, I could let it get to me. But it's all up to me. If I know what I am, it really doesn't matter what people are calling me. I don't have to grow a beard or talk about sports or wear clothes I don't like just to be me. I already am me, inside and out.
Nygeel is one step farther than me because he actually chose to transition, so technically it should matter even less. If you're on the hormones, you're changing your I.D., you're living as male, and you're comfortable, then no one else can tell you who you are. If you want to allow them to, that's your business. If you want to let it get to you, that's your business. If you want to ignore it and just go on with your life, that's also your business.
What should matter less? How people read you? I would say that it matters more. If you're changing all of your documentation to male yet the vast majority of people still read you as female, that's a pretty big problem... especially if you've been hormones for awhile and not much is changing. I mean it's one thing if it's happening on rare occasions but in his case it seems to be most of the time (based on what he's posted). That can create some awkward and dangerous situations over time that you can't always handle by just ignoring people. Not trying to go after you personally, just looking at the other side of this issue.
Quote from: lexical on April 16, 2012, 12:54:09 AM
What should matter less? How people read you? I would say that it matters more. If you're changing all of your documentation to male yet the vast majority of people still read you as female, that's a pretty big problem... especially if you've been hormones for awhile and not much is changing. I mean it's one thing if it's happening on rare occasions but in his case it seems to be most of the time (based on what he's posted). That can create some awkward and dangerous situations over time that you can't always handle by just ignoring people. Not trying to go after you personally, just looking at the other side of this issue.
Then it's a matter of actively correcting people. And if you're comfortable and confident with yourself, it's easier to do. It's also easier to do if you have changed your gender on your ID. That was my point. It's a lot easier to publicly say you're male when your ID backs that up ... even if someone were to mistake you for female.
Okay okay. Boys, Nygeel needs some help. A Brother is in need.
This is going to sound a bit brutal, but I'm not one to mince words.
You're not rugged like Clint Eastwood. You have some feminine features that can actually be used to your advantage. But ONLY if you're seen as a guy. The world is brutal. If you don't quack like a duck, waddle like a duck or look like a duck, you're not a duck, no matter how much you cluck. A genetic guy would probably be offended to be gendered as female.
You have to rely on other cue's to tell the world, "I'm a man!" if your squeeking and jumping up and down with excitement, this screams "girl!" And growing up in the male world, that would have painted a target on your back and advertised you as "Open for a butt kicking." I of course grew up with other British military kids. How civilian kids were, I don't know too well. the one civvy school I went to I was thought to be gay (Just like at every school I went to) and therefore an easy target because I couldn't hide my feminine mannerisms or speech pattern..something. I never did figure it out. Think of it as balancing stats in sports. The team, is YOU. You're look's aren't strong. The other team are genetic males. So you make up for your weak points with attributes that bring team YOU's stat's up level with the Genetic Males. Study your opponent. watch them. what are the men in your age group buying and wearing? What do other guys say to each other? T wont give you a Grizzly Adams beard over night. it could take years.
I get misgendered. people at work STILL call me by male pronouns. So I do understand the frustration you feel. At drive-thru's it can be hit and miss with my voice. When I am out in public I try to portray a female in my mannerism's, appearance, walk and how I communicate and interact with others around me. And it pay's off! I rushed unto Subway before work yesterday. I was called Ma'am without uttering a single word by the girl behind the counter. I was in a jacket and my work uniform.
We can debate your appearance until we are blue in the face. Photo's will only tell a percentage of the story. The rest is down to your mannerism's, interaction with others, walk, speech pattern, etc.
you either work at it until you pass 90-100% of the time, or you can resign yourself to being misgendered, but just you. Me, I am working with what I have and trying new things all the time. But the learning never stops.
I know it is in you to pass. The key just eludes you right now. So get into the game. :)
Just my thoughts, no offence is intended. I want to see you to succeed and kick ass doing it!
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I wish I had some advice, but I am not really in a position to do so, because I don't really know what you can change. I hope that it gets better for you, man.
Quote from: Keaira on April 16, 2012, 01:19:36 AM
Think of it as balancing stats in sports. The team, is YOU. You're look's aren't strong. The other team are genetic males. So you make up for your weak points with attributes that bring team YOU's stat's up level with the Genetic Males. Study your opponent. watch them. what are the men in your age group buying and wearing? What do other guys say to each other?
I don't think I could like this enough. This is almost exactly what my partner told me when I complained to him that I don't look manly enough. :laugh: Thank you. This made me laugh and miss him a lot less. You rock, gal!
Quote from: Felix on April 16, 2012, 01:43:14 AM
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I pulled a 12 hour shift today. Again. for the...4th day in a row... I think.. I have to be in early this morning and at 7am on Tuesday. Apparently we are expected to work 7 days a week for at least the next 5 weeks. I'm tired, sleepy and irritable. Grammar is the least of my worries right now. I think I'm applying make-up now to cover the bags and dark circles around my eyes. :(
Sorry hun.
Ayden, I'm glad I made you laugh. I really didn't know of a better way to put it. Did his advice help?
Quote from: Keaira on April 16, 2012, 02:25:31 AM
I pulled a 12 hour shift today. Again. I have to be in early this morning and at 7am on Tuesday. I'm tired sleepy and irritable. Grammar is the least of my worries right now. I think im applying make-up now to cover the bags and dark circles around my eyes. :(
Sorry hun.
Ayden, I'm glad I made you laugh. I really didn't know of a better way to put it. Did his advice help?
Keaira I don't care about grammar or punctuation. I can almost never spell piece or weird correctly if my computer doesn't remind me how, and I still struggle with comma placement. I just couldn't comment intelligently on what anybody was saying. And that drawing always makes me smile. :)
Quote from: Felix on April 16, 2012, 02:29:30 AM
Keaira I don't care about grammar or punctuation. I can almost never spell piece or weird correctly if my computer doesn't remind me how, and I still struggle with comma placement. I just couldn't comment intelligently on what anybody was saying. And that drawing always makes me smile. :)
... Oh. I'm sorry. I thought you were getting after me. Sorry Felix-dear. *hugs*
Quote from: Keaira on April 16, 2012, 02:32:08 AM
... Oh. I'm sorry. I thought you were getting after me. Sorry Felix-dear. *hugs*
I was getting after you, but I wasn't trying to correct you or anything. There are a few comics that get stuck in my head and just rattle around until I stumble into an outlet.
A couple others I can't shake:
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Sorry for derailing, Nygeel. I wish I knew what to tell you. I get misgendered at least a couple times a week still and it's frustrating. I'm hoping my facial hair grows in better soon.
Felix, I honestly thought you'd been on T for quite some time when I first saw your photo.
Here's the thing...I'm thinking that people see me they think masculine woman. A masculine woman would not act feminine/flamboyant (etc), so if I play that up it's possible that it might work for me (plus I've tried a lot of "masculinizing" things that haven't worked out and made me feel uncomfortable). I've had different levels of frustration/being upset about being misgendered through the years. At first I thought "well, my hair is kind of long...that must be it" so I buzzed it off. That didn't work so I figured I wasn't dressing the right way so I changed that. That didn't work so I changed my glasses (did this twice so far). Changed my hair a few more time, changed the way I walked, spoke, and my body language. When I was still in the same spot I figured "Welp, might as well give hormones a try." I had researched side effects and everything so I knew what could potentially happen to me. It was a risk I was willing to take in order to have my gender recognized. It's been about a year and five months, and although I see massive changes in myself, others don't.
Think of it as some sort of huge project. Like designing a building, and you're really proud of this building because it's yours. You watch it get made, and it turns out to be what you believe to be the best thing you've ever made. Everybody else on the other hand thinks your building is an eyesore and should be taken down. People start protesting against your building, saying it's not eco friendly or something.
That's how my situation feels like to me.
When I'm alone or around supportive friends I have zero dysphoria. It's only in social situations where I am misgendered, or have to use my legal name that I feel it.
@Keaira I'm cool with being Jimmy Carr, and not Clint Eastwood. As I said earlier, I was not looking for "passing advice." I just wanted to vent.
Nygeel, I'm sorry that it keeps happening. It really sucks, when you work so hard to be seen as you and the world still doesn't see you. I know, I've been there too. Unfortunately T works better for some then for others, Not another Aiden has posted about this on his blog here's a link: http://notanotheraiden.com/passing-and-testosterone/ I know it doesn't solve anything but it might help to know you are not alone.
@Nygeel: I know how frustrating it is not passing. I'm in the same place you are in. I have a very hard time passing. I only seem to pass with a hat on. Maybe wearing a hat might help you pass...? My cousins told me that they associate hats with guys.
Quote from: Dominick_81 on April 16, 2012, 04:50:57 PMMaybe wearing a hat might help you pass...? My cousins told me that they associate hats with guys.
It sucks having to rely on something to pass, at least for me it does. In my case, I use to rely on makeup to help me pass because without it I'd get clocked right away but even with makeup I still got clocked sometimes.
Nygeel, maybe you just need to give T more time to do its job? I know how you and I hope things change soon and get better for you.
Quote from: Potter on April 16, 2012, 04:04:37 PM
Nygeel, I'm sorry that it keeps happening. It really sucks, when you work so hard to be seen as you and the world still doesn't see you. I know, I've been there too. Unfortunately T works better for some then for others, Not another Aiden has posted about this on his blog here's a link: http://notanotheraiden.com/passing-and-testosterone/ I know it doesn't solve anything but it might help to know you are not alone.
I really liked the read, but I think Nygeel has other guys in his family and from observing them, I think he said at one point, they could all grow beards in their teens. I think this might be one of the reasons he is frustrated, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
Quote from: Keaira on April 16, 2012, 02:25:31 AM
Ayden, I'm glad I made you laugh. I really didn't know of a better way to put it. Did his advice help?
Actually yeah, it did. :) You're like the much more graceful and public speaker oriented version of my partner. :laugh: Our coversation was basically like this:
Him: Okay, think of it like football -
Me: I hate handegg (what I call football). Make it baseball.
Him: Okay, fine. You'll need to work on that, but anyway - no, actually baseball works better. Okay, so you are like, one guy. The batter or something. And you are batting against the entire team because like, there are no other batters.
Me: Right. Me versus those dudes with awesome 'staches.
him: Yeah, think of a whole team of dudes with my facial hair.
Me: So, I want to beat you up and take your hair, got it.
Him: Yeah, so like, you want to hit a homerun, right?
Me: Uh, yeah. Of course. Screw those guys. I want home base and all the facial hair.
Him: Right, so like, you have to hit a homerun and then go for it.
Me: What if I haven't played those guys before?
Him: Then you get a video tape or something, and watch their strategies. Or sneak into the stadium and spy on them. But you watch and watch until you are all 'I so got this. You are going down other guys!'
That is not hyperbole. He actually talks like that. :laugh: But, I think its cute.
I went to Best Buy last night to by a new PC power supply. I wasn't wearing make-up, I had been up waaay early and it was nearing closing time for them when I got there, so I had plenty of stubble on my face. I was dressed in girl clothes however and had my purse with me.
I still got gendered as female the whole time.
I don't practice my voice or change it. Ever.
I'm going to try an experiment next time I am free...err...not at work. I'm going to dress in guy mode and see if I can be misgendered. I want to know if clothes do make the man. I'm basically putting myself in Nygeel's shoes. But I want to see what it will take to tip the balance from girl to guy, whether it's a hat or the way I dress. Or if it's mannerisms.
Quote from: Ayden on April 18, 2012, 02:14:04 AM
Actually yeah, it did. :) You're like the much more graceful and public speaker oriented version of my partner. :laugh: Our coversation was basically like this:
Him: Okay, think of it like football -
Me: I hate handegg (what I call football). Make it baseball.
Him: Okay, fine. You'll need to work on that, but anyway - no, actually baseball works better. Okay, so you are like, one guy. The batter or something. And you are batting against the entire team because like, there are no other batters.
Me: Right. Me versus those dudes with awesome 'staches.
him: Yeah, think of a whole team of dudes with my facial hair.
Me: So, I want to beat you up and take your hair, got it.
Him: Yeah, so like, you want to hit a homerun, right?
Me: Uh, yeah. Of course. Screw those guys. I want home base and all the facial hair.
Him: Right, so like, you have to hit a homerun and then go for it.
Me: What if I haven't played those guys before?
Him: Then you get a video tape or something, and watch their strategies. Or sneak into the stadium and spy on them. But you watch and watch until you are all 'I so got this. You are going down other guys!'
That is not hyperbole. He actually talks like that. :laugh: But, I think its cute.
LOL.
So much desire for facial hair. Well, I guess this is your goal and opponent in that respect.
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I wonder how many of you will want all that hair in 10/15/20 years time? lol
Late comer to this thread but i think it happens its not you or what you wear its just bad luck!
The T will do its job but everyone is diffrent on how long it take to fully let others see your male all the time!!
Mine took 3 years!!!!
first year 99% see me as female
secound year about 50% see me female
3rd year 90% see me as male
4th year 99% see me as male!
Now everyone see me as male! so its takes time i no it is upsetting i used to race home look in the mirror just to try to see what they see as female in me at the time i thought heck i must change something looking back it was not me it was just no matter what i did i needed to give it time!!
I think your right if its someone you not going to see again why bother correcting them!! you no your male your freinds and family do aswell and in time so will everyone else!
try not to let it get to you!
Here's the fun thing about hair...I've got it backwards compared to my two younger brothers. I have four brothers, two older, two younger. The two younger ones are 19 and just turned 22. The 19 year old started growing facial hair when he was 15 or so and can almost grow a full beard. The 22 year old...well, he shaved a lot in his teens so I can't pin point exactly when his facial hair started coming in but he has a full face of stubble after a day. Neither of them have much body hair besides a stray nipple hair while my stomach, back, chest, and shoulders are covered in hair. I'm about as fuzzy from the neck down as my brother in his 30s (36?). That's the kinda weird part. My body hair is growing in pretty darn strong but places where it's visible (ex: face, hands, forearms) doesn't have much of anything that's visible.
It will just give it time!! it takes years to get there honest!
i no its a pain waiting though
I'm guessing you can't really compare an FTM second puberty to "regular" male puberty really. Certain changes seem to happen much faster for us, others take as long or longer. At just shy of six months i have a nice happy trail but my voice hasn't dropped at all - sure didn't happen in that order to the other male members of my family.
Quote from: emil on April 18, 2012, 04:16:28 PM
I'm guessing you can't really compare an FTM second puberty to "regular" male puberty really. Certain changes seem to happen much faster for us, others take as long or longer. At just shy of six months i have a nice happy trail but my voice hasn't dropped at all - sure didn't happen in that order to the other male members of my family.
I was wondering why that is. Do we get more T in our systems at one time then a cis-guy who goes through puberty? Sorry to derail the thread.
Quote from: emil on April 18, 2012, 04:16:28 PM
I'm guessing you can't really compare an FTM second puberty to "regular" male puberty really. Certain changes seem to happen much faster for us, others take as long or longer. At just shy of six months i have a nice happy trail but my voice hasn't dropped at all - sure didn't happen in that order to the other male members of my family.
Somethings are not even guaranteed. I didn't get a bulging Adams apple nor did my voice really drop. If it even did at all. Nor did I get very tall.
Of course that all now works to my advantage.
Quote from: Darrin Scott on April 18, 2012, 04:20:43 PM
I was wondering why that is. Do we get more T in our systems at one time then a cis-guy who goes through puberty? Sorry to derail the thread.
Not sure but i suppose so...after all FTMs tend to have the most significant changes within the first three years or something...yet you don't find too many 14-year-old boys with a full beard, hairy shoulders or a receding hairline.
Quote from: Darrin Scott on April 18, 2012, 04:20:43 PM
I was wondering why that is. Do we get more T in our systems at one time then a cis-guy who goes through puberty? Sorry to derail the thread.
Probably because of the fact that every body is different and that we have estrogen in our systems which the T has to work against.
Quote from: emil on April 19, 2012, 10:36:40 AM
Not sure but i suppose so...after all FTMs tend to have the most significant changes within the first three years or something...yet you don't find too many 14-year-old boys with a full beard, hairy shoulders or a receding hairline.
Most boys don't start puberty until 13-14.
:-\
Anyone who starts much earlier than that, and is male, would be considered an early bloomer and would likely be envied by his peers.