Forgive me for my rambling post, but I have been thinking about something for the past few days. I guess I would like to post this to get my emotions out, take in any feedback and bore everyone to tears. I apologize for any negativity and not being positive in this post. I want to share my feelings on things.
The other day I was talking to my sister about my transition. Essentially, we spoke about my progress (or lack thereof) and what I am looking to achieve. In my sister's eyes, she doesn't feel like my transition has really begun. In many ways, I think she is right. I haven't really changed my attire, I don't go out of my way to present female, and I'm scared to allow myself to act feminine. Yes, I have been on hormones for a while (low e for a month and regular e with spiro for 3 months), I go to therapy and interact with other trans people, but really my transition is stuck in gear. My sister showed concern about this because she wants me to be happy and hopes that I will get over all of my fears- I love her for this and appreciate her views. She asked me "why I don't make more of an attempt to go out as female". I gave my usual excuses about how I want the hormones to work and don't want to push my mom into a situation she isn't ready to handle. In response my sister then stated the quote in the title.
After this conversation, I have done A LOT of thinking. In many ways, my transition is stuck and my progress is fairly minimal. Sure, I have been improving with hormones and apparently everyone other than family has noticed some changes (including myself). This of course makes me feel good, but I guess I'm hoping for so much more. I really want the hormones to work magic and for me to be a beautiful passable women. At the moment, I believe I can turn out to be an attractive passable women at some point, but I don't believe I'm there. I do see some changes and have been smiling at the positive progress in the mirror, but I want so much more. At this moment, I don't feel I pass as female. I could if my hair would keep growing out and I put more effort into my appearance, but I'm not naturally there. This gets me thinking about what my sister said. I am ever going to reach a day where the hormones have done enough and I feel comfortable with starting part time or even full time? Or will I always be sitting here longing for more? In my sister's opinion, I'm waiting for a day that will never come. She feels I should just take it in stride and start being myself without fear. While I am early on hormones, sometimes I wonder if she is right. Maybe the hormones have received enough time and I just need to girl up and stop delaying. On the other hand, I don't feel ready to present in public and still feel shy about even acting feminine and letting down my stoic male persona. Yes, I am scared....no, petrified to start the harder things. Then again, I have realitic concerns about pushing my mom into a part time scenario (which she isn't ready for yet) and I still desire to give the hormones more time. Plus, it give me time to continue losing weight, start laser, and growing my hair out (it's almost down to my chin). I don't know, does anyone have any thoughts on this? At what point on hrt did you start part time and going out as female? At what point did hrt work for you to feel good enough? When does this stuff really kick in?
It's funny, despite my fears of starting part time, I have never felt more ready to start living as a woman. I've always had an enormous amount of dysphoria, but recently it's been getting even worse. Contrary to what people say, hrt has not provided me with relief but rather intense an intense desire to just end the facade. I really want to just live as a normal girl. It's been terrible because I have been having bad crying fits and hate continuing the charade. Even though my life has been improving (will start work soon, I'm making okay progress on hrt, family relations have been MUCH better, and will soon be done with my GRE nightmares) I can't help but hate the fact that I can't be like other girls. I look at them with so much jealousy and just want to look like them. I wonder if I will ever be as pretty as them or if I will ever get to meet guys like they do (I know it's silly but I have been very boy crazy lately and really desire romance). Even things that never got to me before are killing me. My friend is getting married and I'll have to dress up in male wedding attire. He knows I'm trans and fully supports it, but I wouldn't want to make a scene at his wedding nor do I feel I would pass. However, I so want to go in a pretty dress and he probably would prefer me embracing myself. Yet, I can't. I don't really pass at the moment (I am certain because the pizza guy called me dude the other day,lol) and I don't want to present as female until I do. It would suck for me to have nothing but negative experiences in the beginning. I want to be a pretty young girl, not some 24 year old fem male. I don't know. I guess I really want to start and wonder if I should, but then I realize I'm not there and it kills me. I realize I'm still early in the game, but I just want to be there already. Then again, I'm scared and not ready at the same time. It's hard to explain and frustrating.
Thanks for listening to my rambling. :D
I think you should listen to your sister hormones are not going to turn you into a woman. Being a woman is some you become through the trails and errors of living as one the sooner you start trying to live as one the easier your transition will be.
I first started trying to present as a woman prior to hormones and I looked bad and it was embarrassing. But it was also very important to my development as a woman. I do not regret those pre hrt moments of totally not passing with terrible makeup skills at all. I can actually look back now and see how far I've come.
LTL sooner or later your going to have to start being yourself. Sure it's going to be embarrassing at first but it's also necessary to your development as a woman.
btw Have you picked out a name yet girl? I so want to have a name to call you instead of LTL. ;)
Sorry for the FTM intrusion, but I think you have to do things when the time is right for you. At some point, you will probably reach critical mass (or not--a few people change their minds) and find it unbearable to keep going as you are. Then, you will start presenting differently. This might happen in a couple of days, even if your hair is the same length and you haven't had any additional electrolysis appointments, or it could happen months from now.
I don't see any problem with waiting until you feel more comfortable. Maybe you aren't there yet psychologically, and it has nothing to do with hair and hormones. Or maybe you need to get more ducks in a row. If your hair isn't very long and you still have more facial/body hair than you are comfortable with and you have been on HRT for only a little while, then maybe waiting is a good thing.
In any event, we do things in our own time. Sometimes other people provide insights that nudge us into taking an action sooner than we would have otherwise, but, ultimately, we are the ones who have to make the decision and live with it.
LtL, I say give it a shot - you seem to have support all around. I honestly don't think it will hurt if you ease into it.
You don't have to start with a dress, maybe some cute jeans and shirts, then slowly get into the more feminine stuff you want like make-up jewelry as you go. I know I wish I could do something, but I am scared also and I haven't even told anyone yet.
Don't let fear hold you back anymore, and I know this sounds very hypocritical of me since I said I was going to go see my college counselor as I told you I was, but I am too scared so you braver then me and your moving forward. Take it one step at a time and go at your own pace!
Now I am rambling, hehe well all I am going to say now is "You can do it!" -hugs-
Don't give in to the pressure of choosing a name!!! Rebel!!!
:D :D
LtL, I think the "girl" is already there. She is just having a problem being expressed.
Quote from: Jamie D on September 21, 2013, 11:06:28 PM
LtL, I think the "girl" is already there. She is just having a problem being expressed.
Yeah, I think you've already experienced waking up as a girl...but it's for you to decide.
LTL you graciously share your thoughts and well considered support for your family here. I want that same support for you.
Being at the far end of the waited forever spectrum I was more than ready to get on out there full time post haste. I cannot recommend that for you but your post title strongly resonates with me.
I had a childhood that included just that kind of magical thinking. Somehow I felt it would just happen and presto I would be the girl I felt inside. School and puberty demolished that dream for decades as I tried to be what I was not and it never ever got easier. Please understand that I do not suggest your sister's idea is that you are childish but magical really only works for Lucky Charms?
What this suggest to me is that we must take real and concrete steps to over come the "excuses" we too often create ourselves. You are doing that as the biggest change IMO is between your ears and you are making progress toward your desired goals. You merit support and a vote of confidence from us. We believe you can do it and do it well. You have worked politics so you know image and spin can be artificial if effective. You can believe in the pretty and feminine character you envision. Consider taking the small reasonable steps that are meaningful to you without rocking your world. You noted it is what you will "allow" for yourself. Guess that makes you the gatekeeper eh? Please consider being just a bit more permissive and dip your toes in the deep end of the pool. I bet you will be soon be swimming very nicely and look back with chagrin about your delays. Jump on in, the water is great.
Sounds to me like you're taking a somewhat passive approach to transition...taking pills and hoping.
Transition requires effort. If you don't make the effort...you won't transition to your dreams. Make-up, for instance, takes practice. Wearing girlie clothes confidently (and knowing your "style") takes practice. Your voice...takes a LOT of practice.
Even if you're not ready to go in public as yourself, you can still practice at home. I know for myself that first time outdoors in full girl mode was scary...but I got over it. I never wpuld have if I just stayed in guy mode and just dreamed about it.
Good luck! And...make it happen!
:)
Quote from: Beth Andrea on September 21, 2013, 11:56:40 PM
Sounds to me like you're taking a somewhat passive approach to transition...taking pills and hoping.
Transition requires effort. If you don't make the effort...you won't transition to your dreams. Make-up, for instance, takes practice. Wearing girlie clothes confidently (and knowing your "style") takes practice. Your voice...takes a LOT of practice.
Even if you're not ready to go in public as yourself, you can still practice at home. I know for myself that first time outdoors in full girl mode was scary...but I got over it. I never wpuld have if I just stayed in guy mode and just dreamed about it.
Good luck! And...make it happen!
:)
I agree with Beth hormones really don't make you look like a woman without all the other stuff and makeup isn't something your going to be good at starting off. It takes lots and lots of practice to get good at makeup and finding out what works for you. Clothes are the same way just because you think a outfit looks cute doesn't mean it will look good on you. Transitioning takes a lot of effort and waiting till you pass to try to present sounds like a disaster in the making. Hormones can only do so much and the rest requires lots of work. ;)
Quote from: learningtolive on September 21, 2013, 09:44:54 PM
Forgive me for my rambling post, but I have been thinking about something for the past few days. I guess I would like to post this to get my emotions out, take in any feedback and bore everyone to tears. I apologize for any negativity and not being positive in this post. I want to share my feelings on things.
The other day I was talking to my sister about my transition. Essentially, we spoke about my progress (or lack thereof) and what I am looking to achieve. In my sister's eyes, she doesn't feel like my transition has really begun. In many ways, I think she is right. I haven't really changed my attire, I don't go out of my way to present female, and I'm scared to allow myself to act feminine. Yes, I have been on hormones for a while (low e for a month and regular e with spiro for 3 months), I go to therapy and interact with other trans people, but really my transition is stuck in gear. My sister showed concern about this because she wants me to be happy and hopes that I will get over all of my fears- I love her for this and appreciate her views. She asked me "why I don't make more of an attempt to go out as female". I gave my usual excuses about how I want the hormones to work and don't want to push my mom into a situation she isn't ready to handle. In response my sister then stated the quote in the title.
After this conversation, I have done A LOT of thinking. In many ways, my transition is stuck and my progress is fairly minimal. Sure, I have been improving with hormones and apparently everyone other than family has noticed some changes (including myself). This of course makes me feel good, but I guess I'm hoping for so much more. I really want the hormones to work magic and for me to be a beautiful passable women. At the moment, I believe I can turn out to be an attractive passable women at some point, but I don't believe I'm there. I do see some changes and have been smiling at the positive progress in the mirror, but I want so much more. At this moment, I don't feel I pass as female. I could if my hair would keep growing out and I put more effort into my appearance, but I'm not naturally there. This gets me thinking about what my sister said. I am ever going to reach a day where the hormones have done enough and I feel comfortable with starting part time or even full time? Or will I always be sitting here longing for more? In my sister's opinion, I'm waiting for a day that will never come. She feels I should just take it in stride and start being myself without fear. While I am early on hormones, sometimes I wonder if she is right. Maybe the hormones have received enough time and I just need to girl up and stop delaying. On the other hand, I don't feel ready to present in public and still feel shy about even acting feminine and letting down my stoic male persona. Yes, I am scared....no, petrified to start the harder things. Then again, I have realitic concerns about pushing my mom into a part time scenario (which she isn't ready for yet) and I still desire to give the hormones more time. Plus, it give me time to continue losing weight, start laser, and growing my hair out (it's almost down to my chin). I don't know, does anyone have any thoughts on this? At what point on hrt did you start part time and going out as female? At what point did hrt work for you to feel good enough? When does this stuff really kick in?
It's funny, despite my fears of starting part time, I have never felt more ready to start living as a woman. I've always had an enormous amount of dysphoria, but recently it's been getting even worse. Contrary to what people say, hrt has not provided me with relief but rather intense an intense desire to just end the facade. I really want to just live as a normal girl. It's been terrible because I have been having bad crying fits and hate continuing the charade. Even though my life has been improving (will start work soon, I'm making okay progress on hrt, family relations have been MUCH better, and will soon be done with my GRE nightmares) I can't help but hate the fact that I can't be like other girls. I look at them with so much jealousy and just want to look like them. I wonder if I will ever be as pretty as them or if I will ever get to meet guys like they do (I know it's silly but I have been very boy crazy lately and really desire romance). Even things that never got to me before are killing me. My friend is getting married and I'll have to dress up in male wedding attire. He knows I'm trans and fully supports it, but I wouldn't want to make a scene at his wedding nor do I feel I would pass. However, I so want to go in a pretty dress and he probably would prefer me embracing myself. Yet, I can't. I don't really pass at the moment (I am certain because the pizza guy called me dude the other day,lol) and I don't want to present as female until I do. It would suck for me to have nothing but negative experiences in the beginning. I want to be a pretty young girl, not some 24 year old fem male. I don't know. I guess I really want to start and wonder if I should, but then I realize I'm not there and it kills me. I realize I'm still early in the game, but I just want to be there already. Then again, I'm scared and not ready at the same time. It's hard to explain and frustrating.
Thanks for listening to my rambling. :D
Do it when you feel you need to. I mean, I agree with your sister where things won't progress until you progress them yourself. Your mannerisms won't just change, your femininity won't just change. However, I do feel like it's not just that easy to simply stop everything you were accustomed to throughout life, it's not easy being an outward pretender.
I haven't had to change my mannerisms, I've always been kinda girly. However, I did train my voice. And even though I don't present as female yet, nor have I started to part time, it feels WAY better being able to AT LEAST come out vocally. Meaning, I get Ma'am'd on the phone and through online chats. It makes me feel WAY better about myself. I do have plans to start coming out physically, but I'm waiting for a few physical body changes to make it easier on immediate family.
Well, since you asked about timelines, and since I myself have also taken a rather passive approach of "waiting for the hormones to do their magic..."
It took me about 2 months on hormones before I genuinely started seeing a girl in the mirror for the first time. And that was after I had gone shopping at Goodwill looking for clothes, after I had been working on my voice for a while, and after I had made a million videos of myself trying to tweak my presentation.
I finally did go out for the first time about 2.5 months into HRT. And it was just a quick little 5-minute trip where I went into Walmart in the middle of the night when nobody was there to pick up a midnight snack, and then immediately went back to the car. That gave me at least something.
For the next 5.5 months, I continued to pretty much never go out at all, only making it out in "girl mode" maybe once every 3 weeks or so, mostly to go to my therapist's office.
Finally now at 8 months, I'm part-time, and actually socializing with people and going out as a girl more often, at least several times a week now. But that is after EIGHT MONTHS of working on my voice, dieting, making videos of my walk and studying cis-women to try and make it better, still waiting for the magic HRT pills to start having more of an effect, and fighting against my own reflection every single day feeling like I'd never make it.
Even now, I'm realizing that my life has not even truly begun yet. I still only have 2 female outfits, I still feel inadequate, I still pretty much have never tried makeup whatsoever, and I am pretty much completely inept at all of the social aspects of being female. All of that isn't going to come until I get the courage to go out the door and try it. And I have to admit, I'm going to suck at it at first. I know I am. Because I have no idea what the hell I'm doing.
But it's just like learning an instrument. Nobody picks it up and is a prodigy right away. The first time, all you can make on the instrument is a few basic notes. You can maybe play something that sounds remotely like a song that you know, but it's sloppy, slow, has no technique, is unrefined. Getting better only comes through practice... through persistent practice where you're constantly working on it. And slowly, slowly, over time, you get better at it.
If you're not comfortable really getting into it, it's okay to wait, as long as you're not hurting yourself in the process. (That's admittedly what drove me to do a lot of the public pushes forward that I eventually made, was that I realized I was pretty much tearing myself up inside because I was so angry at myself for wanting to try things and yet being too much of a coward to do them. This very internal battle was the thing that has possibly cost me my job. So don't let that happen to you. If it ever reaches that point where your mind is insisting that you have to do something, do it.) But anyway, yeah, your sister is right. You really aren't going to magically wake up one day and be a girl. Even if physically you pass perfectly, there's still a million things that you have to learn in order to truly socialize as female. And trust me, those things are NOT going to come through HRT alone. Transition is a long road that you have to walk down step by step. It's not one of the beaming devices from Star Trek where you magically arrive at your destination.
So think about it like that. No, you shouldn't feel any pressure to go faster than what you're personally comfortable with. Take as long as you need to. But at the same time, if you want to get there, eventually you're going to have to start walking. Otherwise it will always be this mythical shining castle off in the distance that you can only admire from afar.
Don't put yourself in an uncomfortable position before you're ready. Passing seems to mean a lot to you, so I'd recommend you just work on makeup/your wardrobe/your voice/etc. on the side while waiting for hormones to get you there. A fast transition isn't for everyone - especially for those who want to pass from the get-go.
And if someone gives me a lecture on how "passing isn't at all important, and you should just be the real you and blah blah blah," I'm going to bust a tit. Everyone is different, and everyone comes into this with individualistic goals. I know that if I was told, "well, you'll never pass even with FFS so you should just learn to be happy being yourself," I would've offed myself months ago.
Quote from: Horizon on September 22, 2013, 12:40:11 AM
Don't put yourself in an uncomfortable position before you're ready. Passing seems to mean a lot to you, so I'd recommend you just work on makeup/your wardrobe/your voice/etc. on the side while waiting for hormones to get you there. A fast transition isn't for everyone - especially for those who want to pass from the get-go.
And if someone gives me a lecture on how "passing isn't at all important, and you should just be the real you and blah blah blah," I'm going to bust a tit. Everyone is different, and everyone comes into this with individualistic goals. I know that if I was told, "well, you'll never pass even with FFS so you should just learn to be happy being yourself," I would've offed myself months ago.
Being yourself and being as you were born don't necessarily have to mean the same thing. When someone says just be happy with yourself, they basically mean be happy BEING yourself. If you're a girl, then you're a girl. Be just that, you're your own variant. There is no baseline.
Ah yes - that magical moment of waking up as a girl. Who of us did not have all these dreams in childhood and especially puberty. But your sister is right in that it will not happen like that. I know I told this before but when I transitioned I was a bit like that. Took HRT before I really stopped presenting as a guy. I was only doing "part time" then, changing some things here and there at home. I waited and I must say a lot of magic happened really. I was scared at first to go out dressed overly femme, so I continued a bit what I had done prior to HRT which was to sort of dress in stuff that was very unisex tending towards the more soft and femme, but still in a range that was acceptable for both genders. I was gendered female occasionally even pre HRT at that time and that increased during HRT quite a bit, especially if I did not use any really typical male stuff at all (I had a disgust on that anyways). The most important thing in that time shortly pre-HRT and thereafter was to drop the "stoic male" patterns. And was I stoic - like a frigging robot I stumped around in life. I let go of them as much as I could and it was such a relief to just act as I would have acted normally. And it did a ton on being perceived as female even in early HRT phase when I was not deliberately choosing clothes that are considered uniquely female. I also already had long hair at that time though, so that was a bonus as I did not have short hair since I was 16 or so. Eventually as my behaviour and mannersims were liberated and HRT was working well and I was getting more being gendered female in public I started to push part-time to get more into that, so I took up more femme clothes like some "girly" pants and shirts and it worked out pretty well. I did get plenty of looks still, not having done electro or laser and still trying to cover this with some makeup. It was a bit scary to do as I hated it if people "read" me. But that was the way to learn and honestly I could not really go back to the mode where i would be gendered male much more often. I mean when I was dressing a bit more femme and was maybe read by 10, 20 or 30% of the people - that was bad. But as I saw myself as a girl, going back to clothes and presentation that would get me "read" like 90% of the time was even worse, so I stopped doing that.
So I guess my advice would be to maybe do some of the following as a priority:
* get laser treatment for the facial hair, that helps a TON in how you are perceived (I wish I had that option when I did my thing).
* see how far you can go to the femme side in your "male presentation" and if you have the chance to some part-timing to see how it works out and feels. I dont know if this made sense above but for me going back to "male mode" after being parttime presenting with the full intent of being seen as a woman felt like I am then not passing at all anymore (well, duh) and that drove me to transition faster.
* Drop the stoic male thing. Think of it as a burden that you can shed and trust that underneath you will find behaviours and manners that are coming out naturally to replace it. If you present as effeminate male outwardly it may look gay to some or you may be gendered female despite the attire, of you present deliberatly female it will just match. (Dont overexxagarate it, dont try to "play girl", no more acts ;) )
LTL - I'm a semi outsider looking in. I've glanced at your posts to some extent over the last year or so and I think I can see what is happening.
You are doing the very natural human thing that most of us tend to do when faced with a challenge. You are procrastinating and finding excuses to put everything off to the last possible moment. That really isn't a criticism, because like I say almost everyone does it. So, become aware of what you are doing by all means, but until you want to change, don't beat yourself up about it.
I do it myself. I did it about applying to med school because that for me was the thing in my life which was as scary a challenge as transition undoubtedly is for you. It involved most of the same stuff too... finding the money, moving away, learning to behave in a different way, (yes doctors have a strict code of personal conduct - break the rules and you don't "pass".)
I am doing it right now! I need to be learning about the cardiovascular and pulmonary systems, and I need to revise my knowledge of the cranial nerves for tomorrow. Instead I am on here writing this!
There will come a moment when you simply won't be able to put it all off any longer and you will have to make a choice to act, or to live with the regret of not having done so. Only you will know when that moment comes. When it does, I predict that you will stop going around in the current circles and start to make real progress. Until then be kind to yourself and enjoy the displacement activities that you choose to do, because we all tend to do them, so there really should be no shame in it.
That said, your sister is right. These things don't just happen. If you want it, you will have to take risks and make sacrifices. You will also need to do some hard emotional, psychological and indeed physical work.
In short, just like I am having to do with my journey, you will need to learn and mature as a human being, and do things that at one time seemed far too scary to even contemplate.
Good luck on your journey.
LtL I can so associate with your post.
Described me to a T, or should than be an E ::)
I had everything going for me but couldn't take the next step.
I was too scared.
In my case I was asked point blank at work why my appearance had changed. I was stuck, I told her and then I told everyone in my lab.
There was no going back then.
Funny though it was the best thing that could have happened.
I so remember the next work day waiting to cross the road from the car park to go to work, I was wearing a skirt and a blouse. I suddenly realised I wasn't frightened anymore.
I was me. Just another woman standing at the pedestrian crossing with half a dozen others, going to work.
I have never been frightened since.
First step Sis.
Take that step, you will be amazed and you have all of your sisters with you.
Hugs Darling
Cindy
Quote from: Cindy on September 22, 2013, 03:23:18 AM
Described me to a T, or should than be an E ::)
I thought that was supposed to be T and A? >:-)
LTL you and I are in pretty similar situation.
I feel like I'm stuck in my transition. I've been on hormones for 11 mos and everyday I'm hoping the "Magic" will happen. But I have to think logically that these aren't magic pills. They only take you so far and the rest of the work falls on you. My dysphoria has been in over drive since I've started. I still present as a guy and I'm sick of still wearing the same old clothes. It's so bad I haven't brought any new clothes in 5 yrs. I've been dressing in woman's clothes since I was a teen. I have a closet full of beautiful shoes, purses, clothes etc I have that for the most part I've never worn. At this point I just don't feel like I'm physically comfortable enough to start wearing any of it again. I obsesses about surgery all the time. I love to look at the social networking pages of girls I know and live vicariously through their beautiful lives posted for all to see, I sit envious of them and wonder when it'll be my turn.
But then reality hits again. "I'm" the only person that can help me. I have to be strong and make things happen to get what I need to be happy. At this point I'm looking for work after being unemployed for 5yrs. I completed work training last yr, moved to a brand new apt, and I even met a nice guy that I'm getting to know (something I didn't feel worthy of having). You have to be strong as well. Sometimes we get complacent with everyday life and we feel like things are just supposed to happen. This couldn't be further from the truth. We all have to fight tooth and nail to get to where we want. So whenever you feel stuck let out you're inner Wonder Woman, hold your head high, and fight. Do what you can for what you have to work with. Do a little bit and then do some more. You and I both will get there. We just have to stay focused and make our own magic.
I'm doing the same thing. I plan on using hormones until I experience "boy-mode failure", but I'm not sure if that day will come. Oh sure, I'm working on voice and mannerisms, but in a sporadic fashion. I need to buckle down on these things, but I'm progressing much faster in sounding and acting female than I am in LOOKING female. I don't want to go around being all femme when I still look like a dude, I'd probably get beaten up. I dunno, that's just my take on it...
I couldn't bear waiting around and hoping hormones/laser might do something for me. I needed to be myself.
I set a date when I would go full time with whatever beauty and passability I could muster by then.
It was a very good decision.
Quote from: learningtolive on September 21, 2013, 09:44:54 PM
I am ever going to reach a day where the hormones have done enough and I feel comfortable with starting part time or even full time?
I don't know about comfort - that's a relative term. You can find yourself feeling comfortable with something that was intolerable a few days ago simply because your point of view shifts.
I never thought I would pass. I was so eager to be a woman that I decided I would live my life as one even if I didn't. I assumed I would be an easy-to-read trans woman but AT LEAST I WOULD BE A WOMAN.
That was only a few months ago. I now pass pretty much wherever I go (I'm as shocked as anyone...) Men pay attention to me, the kind of attention they only pay to people they find attractive (they have no clue that I'm not actually attracted to much of anyone these days. Of course they're men so they don't care).
If I hadn't decided to move forward regardless of what hormones would do for me, I would never have known what was possible.
LTL, I too can relate to your experience and am at that place now.
I realized last week that I want positive affirmation with regard to my transition and just being me.
I have someone in my life that gives me negative feedback (wife) on every small change and I suspect that will not change any time soon.
My dysphoria on clothing and some light makeup is ramping up and I really will be hitting the critical point soon.
I look at woman at work and thought about woman my age. I am 51 and my E will ramp up my beauty while their E is on the down side. Some point I will look as good or better than a lot of cis woman. I rationalized my longing to have transitioned at a very early age and I rationalized my future look. I am looking forward to the next 20 years.
I have been hoping to wake up as a girl since about the age of four. Fifty years went by and nothing. I suspect you have a case of Magic Pill Syndrome. A very widespread plight among most westerners. Just give me a pill to fix what ails me. When it comes to transitioning HRT may do two things, one physical, one emotional. In both cases YMMV. Passing does not come in a pill, it comes with an attitude adjustment.
I also have been 'stuck' where I am now and at a few points prior. The reason, fear. Starting with the fear of change in my case. Something in my personal life I (used to) abhor. I was stuck for decades with trying to tell myself I am just a CD and then some. I was stuck at anguishing over finding some sort of TG support when my life hit rock bottom. I was stuck hiding at home presenting as female only to venture out in the not so real world to my monthly TG support group meeting where of course you hear from everyone there how passable you are while you see what you believe is the truth in mirror every day. I was stuck at no way am I planning on transitioning, been there done that. I am stuck at having to stick out male mode knowing full well the feelings of inner peace and harmony I have being out in the real world as the real me. With the added bonus of actually being seen as and accepted as a female.
One needs to be ready for each step we take along the road to transition. One can also be too well prepared. Back in my 20's when I experimented with transitioning I was ill prepared emotionally. I had near zero self esteem and totally lacked the needed self confidence. As a consequence I always felt like some guy in a dress. These days it's mainly "Damn I look great for an old bag!". A lot has changed for me which had little help from magic pills. A lot of time and energy was spent needlessly anguishing over taking another step. Some help was gained from 30 years of practicing makeup. My look, beyond girlie girl, is still a work in process. Again partly driven by fear. I always strive for the most unambiguous presentation I can. I still still stand out as a female. Shrinking an inch from my 6ft tall peak has helped. I figure I have another 176 years to go to reach my 'goal height' of 5'6". I try not to anguish over how I'll look then or of hearing my wife say 'Who in their right mind wants to be a 232 year old woman?"
Darn, Like most I wish there were a magic pill. My best to all of us with our life struggles. :)
I can't help with passing, but just in general... in my life experience (as limited as that is) there are at least two big ways to do stuff like this.
My way is to practice as much as I can, by myself, without anyone seeing me... so that when I go make mistakes in the real world I have a firmer base to start from.
Others just like to jump in feet first and learn as they go.
That doesn't mean you have to pick one or the other... but I'm not in favor of going out and being embarrassed when I can embarrass myself in private for a while first :D I couldn't go out right now without tons of foundation, anyway... (practicing with makeup is definitely next on my list). It's like when you practice voice... something I'm just starting. You mimic other female voices, maybe sing along to female vocals, start recording yourself... then start practicing it in the real world.
Some things you can't do that way... like buying women's clothing while presenting male. I've done it only a few times (3-4). The first time for me was exhilarating and terrifying. Each time after it got easier until my last trip to Target I walked right into the women's underwear section (I needed some smaller ones for tucking) and picked up two packages (6 and 7... I have been wearing 8s - the 6s are just about the perfect tightness) plus an awesome pair of gray tights... sorry I'm rambling. Basically, yes - you can buy this stuff online, but that doesn't give you the confidence you need to do it IRL. Confidence building can only be done by trying it out, and from what I understand Passing is like 75% confidence and only 25% looks (i.e. the really big stuff).
It's a fairly long ways off for me... but I doubt I'll pass with many my first time out. That doesn't mean I'm not going to do it. I'll need that confidence to pass when I've got more of the look. Right now, I couldn't do it at all... I have a very male physical presentation ATM ~ though that's changing slowly (between my changes in looks and some minor facebook activity, I think some people are suspecting I'm gay... which helps for shock when they realize or get told that I'm trans*).
Sorry... it was long. I do that! <3
You learn and develop sooo soo so much more from the other stuff than you do from the hormones. You need to get out there and do it to learn and develop, that's just how it is. You don't believe that is true at the beginning but it is.
You can't let fear stop you. I have been out in public for ages, even though I was nowhere near passable and very very scared. Hell, there are a number of social situations that still scare the hell out of me, but I keep going though them and trust the fear will go. You have to. Its the only way. You wont just wake up one day and not be afraid. There will always be fear of starting transition and people reading you, how friends and family will respond, blah blah blah. If you are waiting for that to not be the case, you will wait forever.
You wont just wake up a girl.
You wont just wake up fearless.
You can remain 'not a girl' and live in fear, or you can work through your fear and become the girl you are inside.
Good luck with it all :-)
Akira x
Two things. I kind of feel Heather and Joules are right, but I don't know if it's right to choose a name, or let one find you. My name came to me so long ago I can't remember exactly when (30 years maybe), and it grew on me naturally as I expanded on an old memory. It seems that having a name gives you the girl you need to be, and opens up your life to being that particular girl. I'm a bit hypocritical here because I didn't start hormones until a little more than a year ago. But for all those preceeding years I was Kathy deep inside.
Secondly. I didn't shave off my scruffy old beard for more than six months after beginning HRT. I let everything possible stand in the way of becomng the woman I am, including the beard I was hiding behind. Once the beard was gone I immediately felt free and began to buy more clothes, shop with my wife and her friends, and start treating myself as a woman. So maybe you have to find what you're hiding behind, and understand how important it is to brush that aside. I was told so many times to take control of what's important, and I guess I'm now asking you to do the same. It's not easy, and you may cry about whatever it is you have to leave behind in order to face something new (I cried out of fear and shame). But it's incredibly important, and when it happens your going to love youself for it.
Molly, Molly, Molly, Molly. I really think the first thing you should do is start acting more like yourself, i.e. more feminine. Also, I would start dressing androgynously. Buy some women's bootcut jeans and some not-too-form-fitting tops with a more open neck. Don't push it too far but don't stay stuck in neutral either. A lot of becoming or learning or being yourself (a woman) is by experience. The more people perceive you as female the easier it will be to see yourself as female and to act more feminine. At first, you are going to have to deal with some discomfort. You could wait to you reach male-fail mode but how long will that take. I am basically there now but I started presenting full-time at three months. I'm very lucky body wise so my situation may be different.
It's really a matter of making a decision to put you transition into high gear and let the chips fall where they may. Plus, if you want a boyfriend, you are going to have to do this stuff so the sooner the better. It's really impossible for me to give you a good assessment on what to wear and when to present full-time as I have zero idea how you look and no idea how much you weigh, how tall you are, if you have big hands and all that other stuff.
Since I see there is a lot of talk about magic pills. ::) I thought I would add that there nothing in this world that ever going to just turn you from a man into a woman. Women start off as girls and grow up to become women. It's a process that takes many years and is not something you can hope to happen all on it's on. It does takes a lot of work and effort to achieve.
I really don't get the whole attitude that just taking a few pills is going to turn you into something that took cis women years to achieve. Being a women isn't about taking a few pills. It comes by putting yourself out there and trying to live as one. Sure you may not be all passable at first but really if your just going to continue living as a guy until you completely pass your going to waiting a very very long time. ;)
Quote from: Heather on September 22, 2013, 10:12:09 AM
Since I see there is a lot of talk about magic pills. ::) I thought I would add that there nothing in this world that ever going to just turn you from a man into a woman. Women start off as girls and grow up to become women. It's a process that takes many years and is not something you can hope to happen all on it's on. It does takes a lot of work and effort to achieve.
I really don't get the whole attitude that just taking a few pills is going to turn you into something that took cis women years to achieve. Being a women isn't about taking a few pills. It comes by putting yourself out there and trying to live as one. Sure you may not be all passable at first but really if your just going to continue living as a guy until you completely pass your going to waiting a very very long time. ;)
Thanks Heather for that perspective on
becoming a woman. That is partly why I deliberately call myself a girl, feminine, transgender or genderqueer. We are born as babies that have little concern about gender and that internal or identified gender is recognized later on. Becoming a girl/boy/variant and then a woman/man/variant is a life long process and we are not completed by HRT alone.
I may yet identify as a woman. It is fun to have more to look forward to and I trust LTL is able to thoughtfully weight the scales her way.
Speaking of fun, i do call the process "magic" sometimes for shorthand just like people will say OMG and are not intentionally beseeching a supernatural entity.
This is such an education and I cut myself slack about political correctness (misgendering myself) but do feel the need to continue work on gender pronouns to respect others.
Quote from: Heather on September 22, 2013, 10:12:09 AM
Being a women isn't about taking a few pills. It comes by putting yourself out there and trying to live as one.
Exactly. Hormones have made me very passable (though I have not had laser and thus am clockable up too close), but what is making me a woman is experience. I put myself out there, and the experience is what is changing me more then the hormones. The actual life. And I gotta say it is all that I dreamt of and so much more. I literally couldn't be happier and sometimes wonder when the sky will fall.
Thanks everyone for all the feedback. This thread really took off since last night! I'll do my best to respond to each post, but cannot quote specifics as it would probably break the site,lol.
However, I would like to clarify a few things. I'm not expecting magic, so to speak. I decided to go slowly for a multitude of reasons: I want to ease my family into my transition, I want to slowly learn to get over my fears, I want to tackle big life problems like unemployment (temporarily not an issue anymore), lose weight, take on the GRE, give hormones some time and allow myself to get laser. Along with my therapist's advice, my goal is to make slow improvements that enable me to have a successful transition. At this point, my family is eased in (to some degree), I will start my new job soon (although it's a temp position, there is a possibility for advancement and it pays good), I've been losing weight (one meal a day is fun), soon I will take the GRE, and once I have my first paycheck I will start laser. All that's really left is giving the hormones some more time, working with my mother for her to feel more comfortable, losing some more weight (I'm not fat, but I want to be able to fit into some of the outfits I like) and getting over my fear.
Okay, now I'll do my best to respond.
@heather post one (hope that makes sense,lol).
You're right. I will need to start soon. The question is when is too soon. I've noticed improvements with taking the hormones, but they are incremental. Sure, I like how my body is slowly shaping up and my face is getting more fem by the day, I'd like to give it some more time. Maybe once I hit the right spot, then it will be appropriate to go out. Though I do agree with you about me getting more RLE. I suppose I should practice more on things like voice, bettering my makeup skills and work on my wardrobe. Still I am working on other things like keeping hair off my body, attempting to make my voice sound female, and working on my self confidence which is the root of all evil for me,lol. And no, I don't have a name yet. I want something with an M... I think,lol. My name starts with an m, so I should probably follow the tradition. Nonetheless, I want to get my families input and give my mom a chance at naming me.
@Arch Post one.
Male Alert! Who let them in! ;) ;D
Thank you for the feedback. I think you are right. The main issue is the development of my self esteem and confidence. This is something that I have been working hard on in therapy. My therapist doesn't push me to go one way or the other, but she does respect that my mindset is the most important aspect of my transition. We've been working on ways to improve that mindset and then tackle the big parts of my transition. Yet, I'm frustrated. I just want to be a girl and stop pretending to be a boy. It's nice to interact as female on susan's, in support groups, and with my friends, but I want to be able to do it all the time. I suppose waiting is heathy, but for how long. As you can see, I'm very conflicted.
@joules
Thanks Joules. My plan was to start part time around the six month mark. I want to be part time sometime in the beginning of 2014 and go full time sometime in the middle. This is a very rough plan, but my therapist thinks it's possible. So hey, maybe waiting a little more isn't bad. It's just all frustrating because do or don't, I'm going to feel the same way, only for different reasons.
@Aina.
Thanks! I'm not really scared to wear the clothes. Believe me, it wouldn't be the first time ( I started dressing up as a child). It's just letting others see and exposing myself so to speak. I love girl clothes and wish I could afford to buy more (thank god Christmas is coming)!
@anonymous user
Lol. Well, it would be nice if I could settle on a name.
@Jamie
Thanks. Now on to learning how to express myself.
Quote from: Heather on September 22, 2013, 10:12:09 AM
Since I see there is a lot of talk about magic pills. ::) I thought I would add that there nothing in this world that ever going to just turn you from a man into a woman. Women start off as girls and grow up to become women. It's a process that takes many years and is not something you can hope to happen all on it's on. It does takes a lot of work and effort to achieve.
I really don't get the whole attitude that just taking a few pills is going to turn you into something that took cis women years to achieve. Being a women isn't about taking a few pills. It comes by putting yourself out there and trying to live as one. Sure you may not be all passable at first but really if your just going to continue living as a guy until you completely pass your going to waiting a very very long time. ;)
Hey! Those magic pills are important... I want them pretty badly ;) Of course... I want them partly for the feminizing qualities, but also very much for the stuff that happens up in my head. Increased emotion is very important to me... crying is far easier now that I'm out than it was before, but it still comes with difficulty (Glee Season 1 helped).
That's not to say I don't agree. I am still very, very male presenting (as I mentioned, facial hair alone will keep me there for a while). But I am NOT male. I'm a girl as much as any of you! Right now I'm concentrating on learning what I can and fixing things about my life that I can... It's very, very important to me right now!
I've even changed some gender markers (and their associated usernames :embarrassed:) on some of my online accounts. MyFitnessPal is the most profound - since it will throw off some of the calculations they use on caloric intake, metabolism, etc... but I'm secure enough with my numbers to deal with that.
The fact is, we were born girls and raised male (something about anatomy... whateva'). Time to fix that!
@Tessa.
Yeah, I understand how one could believe I'm hoping for magic,lol. While that may be true in some respect, I'm mostly waiting for a period where I can walk out of the house without fear. I've been bullied in the past (both verbally and physically) and I'm sensitive to societal hostility. I don't want people to misgender me nor do I want to risk getting assaulted or made fun of in anyway. However, despite the progress that hormones have provided, I don't feel it's enough and don't know if it ever will be. On the one hand, I want to wait and get more hrt experience than 3 months (I hardly count the one month of low dose). On the other hand, I fear this could be as good as it gets. I'm so jealous of cisgender females and can't stand the fact that I couldn't of been one. Sigh.
@Beth.
I agree and thanks for the feedback. I have been practicing at home and am trying to make more improvements in "hiding". I suppose I should be more aggressive and will fight to make that happen. Still, I have worn female clothes since I was a kid. My first makeup and female dressing experience was probably when I was 4. Then I occasionally started to dress with my sister when I was around 7. By the time I was 10, I was secretly cross dressing with the clothes around the house (I'm not proud of this fact and don't encourage this). At this point, I've been afraid to go out and buy clothes that fit my current form, so it's been slowed down in a big way. I suppose it's time for me to get over my fear and start shopping. I can probably go with some friends or my sister, so I won't be alone. But I'm so scared. Thanks for the tip your right and I will bring this up with my therapist.
@Heather post 2 (:D)
Yeah, I've learned the hard way about this. I've seen clothes that looked awesome on others that make me look awful. Again, why can't I be cis. :(
@Sierra Belle
Yeah, mannerisms are difficult. I've always been very shy and impassive because I was afraid of being detected. Now that I'm trying to let it all out and it's hard. Still, not everything can be hidden. My sister has always commented on how girly I can be. When I came out she made the point of telling me how she would always tell my mom that I act like a woman. Plus, I've always been assumed to be gay by people. Sometimes it was just whispers, other times it was bullying, and sometimes it was on the verge of work place harassment.
@ Carrie Liz
Thanks. I relate a lot with you. Most of your blog sounds like it could be written by me,lol. Perhaps taking the time is a good thing. You seem to have found happiness even though it took a lot of time and work. Perhaps, working in the shadows isn't such a bad idea.
@ Horizon.
Thanks. I suppose I'm not alone in waiting and taking my time. I've been trying to settle the more important matters of my life and then tackle the physical transition. Not to say this isn't important, it is, but there is so much more for me to work on. I agree passing is essential to me. Without that, I couldn't be happy.
Quote from: kabit on September 22, 2013, 01:17:50 PM
Hey! Those magic pills are important...
I never said they weren't important. They are just part of the equation that is needed as much as I hate to say it to pass. But I imagine most of us are trying to pass as much as we can and that's where all the other things come in.
Now I'm not saying just rush out there and start trying to present yourself as a woman. For example I was practicing makeup religiously for 2 months prior to my first outing as myself. None of this is something you can learn with taking hrt alone and requires a lot of trial and error.
But the whole point I'm trying to make if anybody is under the impression that you can transition without being embarrassed at some point is lying to themselves. It's best just to over the embarrassment in the beginning instead of putting it off because once you stop being able to pass as a either a man or a woman your going to be put in embarrassing situations. ;)
Sips her coffee and continues,lol.
@anjaq
Thanks for sharing your experience. I agree that the stoic male thing has to go. Again, there are times where my fem mannerisms are picked up, but I have been bullied a lot for it so it's hard. Not everyone was evil about it. I'm fine with the people that whispering "Is he gay" or the fact that I had one of my high school friends laugh and say "no ****" when I told him I liked men. But it's the people that are nasty and hate feminity in those who they believe should "act like a man". I don't know. I grew up in a very Italian and Catholic family, so I sometimes feel guilt about this stuff. As for laser, I will be starting it within the next month or two!
@Doctorwho
I do procrastinate a lot. It is a major flaw of mine and it's why I've taken so long to take the GRE and appy for grad school. While I can be a hard worker, you first have to get me started,lol. In this case, that is only part of it. The other part of it is serious concern about not passing, fitting in or being made fun of. I guess I'm just scared and want everything to go perfect when I start part-time and/or full time.
@ Cindy
Thank you for sharing. I can't wait to get to that point. While many people in my real life know at this point, I'm terrified about those that don't. Hell, that's not fully true. I'm even scared to dress up in front of my best friends who are incredibly strong trans allies. I guess I have to get used to dealing with the fact that I will never look perfect or like a cis female. It just kills me sometimes. It will be great when I can feel comfortable and feel pretty around others without fearing their reactions.
@ Janae
(Hugs)
I totally understand where you are coming from. We'll both get there, it just sucks in the meantime,lol.
@Septet.
I can relate with you. It's hard and we just want it to go perfectly. Go at your own pace and continue working on the non physical stuff. I think you'll do fine.
@ Suzifrommd
Congrats! I'm glad you found that strategy to work in your favor. :)
To be honest, I don't know if that is the right thing for me at this point in time. As I said before, I'm very conflicted and need to mull over so many things. Perhaps, in January I can start part time which is sort of my current plan. That way I give the hormones some time. Whatever I do, I want to be full time by June 13th (my first day on low dose e). That way I give myself one year to prepare. Of course, this is a rough plan and it's subject to change, but that's what I had been planning. However, I don't know anymore as it's a frustrating wait.
@ Cynthia Michelle
I'm sorry to hear you and your wife are at odds with your transition. I can't help much in this department as I've never been married. However, I can relate to you trying to work and compromise with the feelings of your family.
@JoanneB
I agree. The mental aspects of transitioning and confidence issue are perhaps the most important. That's what I've been focusing on in therapy and trying to improve all this time. In my therapists eyes, she feels I need to get over other hurdles in my life to feel good about me. That's the first step. As I continue doing that, I wonder when that step is done with or will overlap with step 2. I don't think I can ever solve my confidence issues until I fully transition, but I do think there are things I can continue on doing to improve my self perception. The question is how long do I wait in step one before I attempt step two. That's the whole thing. I feel so conflicted because both answers have their pros and cons.
@Francis Ann.
Thanks.
@ Kabit
I can relate. Hopefully we will both get there in time.
@Akira21
Thank you for your thoughts. I agree that fighting through the fear is important. Still, I'm confused about what's the best tactic to fight this fear.
@Kathyk
I've been shaving my hair for some time now. Because I'm Italian and naturally plagued with hair, it gets difficult to manage at times,lol. Still, I do keep up with those things, so I suppose that is some progress.
@Joanna
Yeah, perhaps dressing more androgynous is the key. There is no need to wait any longer for that, so perhaps it's time. It would be a welcome change of pace because everything that I where is so professional or business casual. I'm weird.
I wish I had the guts to post myself on here, but I'm too scared. You never know who lurks. Because I'm a privacy nut, this concerns me.
One thing about transitioning is that it is a huge experience. It is something that makes us strong. I dont think anyone who is post transition is not a very strong woman. That sadly does come at a price as the reason for that is that not only did we have all the pre-transition time in which we had to be strong not to break, but also we have the process of transition which always means risking being ridiculed or bullied and having to defend oneself in some way - ideally not with that gun but with some snappy words. I think it can hardly be avoided. If only because even if HRt is perfect and laser is done and all that, passing still will not be 100% in a day as with the magic pill as it is a learning process which as all learning happens by making mistakes. And so we make mistakes and learn from them and with that we learn how to "pass" and how to "become a woman". As i see it what we are at the beginning of transition are little girls. Just look at what people write and sometimes the clothes they wear and such. I remember for a while I started to read teenage girl magazines and "Sailor Moon" comics and so on. Its like we got stuck in our female development sometime in puberty and there we still are and have to learn how to become a woman of our real age from that on and that only happens by trial and error - maybe by being told in a harsh way that a belly-free shirt is a bit ridiculous for anyone above 25 . Thats life - transition is a toughie and I think there is no absolutely smooth transition even for those who have a lucky body. Well maybe if you started at age 12 or 14 it would be smooth, but even then the feedback from society is not always good - but trust me - we get stronger with that and this is part of our development towards adult women. So if you have some really good reasons its ok to delay a bit, like laser, which does a hell lof of good in terms of passability when people are close up and reduces the need for those ugly looking thick layers of cover makeup. But it definitely makes no sense to push everything back always. One has to start somewhere and risk something - and if that is being looked at in a bad way because one acts feminine while still presenting male, then that is really not that bad - just ignore them and screw that and maybe take it as a reason to actually stop presenting as male as at that moment that mismatch is actually gone.
Quote from: learningtolive on September 22, 2013, 02:15:20 PM
I wish I had the guts to post myself on here, but I'm too scared. You never know who lurks. Because I'm a privacy nut, this concerns me.
Well if someone tried to out you based on a pic you posted on a transgender support site you could ask them what are they doing lurking on a transgender support site? :eusa_think:
Quote from: Heather on September 22, 2013, 02:25:34 PM
Well if someone tried to out you based on a pic you posted on a transgender support site you could ask them what are they doing lurking on a transgender support site? :eusa_think:
LOL... I feel the same way as Heather. I will post myself, but not until I'm further along... then if people (from work, say) find it... it will just explain a few things rather than be a shock to their system!
I'm also concerned because web photo searches and facial recognition searching is becoming a reality. I'm sure I wouldn't be found, but you never know..... Of course, the few (no-humans) pictures I have posted could out me too...
Quote from: Joules on September 22, 2013, 04:15:12 PM
I thought that bunny looked familiar....
I
did steal the picture ;)
Though... if and when I get my own apartment (and don't constantly go on travel) I plan to get a dwarf or mini (Holland) lop. I'm a dog person, but I would love a rabbit (they're supposed to be very dog like - especially the girl bunnies).
This is why I dont post images of me in this context. I considered that for a moment but really - when I had a TG blog in the times before it was really blogging - erm - well I had a geocities website with a lot of my transition stuff on it - it took ages to get that out of the internet again and nowadays probably it never goes away. Luckily I never used a real name nor was facial recognition working at that time. But I would hate it if facebook or something else comes up with some images linked to a trans-related URL when someone uploads a regular foto of me because facebook recognizes me on them both. No way. If there would be a way to post a picture that can only be seen by other members, that would be cool, but that is only for the paid subscribers I think.
Until you realize that you have always been female you will never have any sense that you are.
My knee jerk reaction was to say listen to your sister but upon thinking about it longer I think you should probably hold off.
If you could try presenting female some place where no one knows you then you might get a feel for whether you are ready or not. But dealing with people who know you from before is unpredictable and people love to talk, and point.
Aside from dressing up for timeline photos. I presented as male at work and home up until the day I started my RLE. nothing wrong with it hun. Everyone Transitions diffrently. hell one of my friends went 4 years before even trying on girls cloths.
I agree absolutely that everyone should go at the speed and follow the steps that they feel comfortable with.
However I hate to tell you this, but ultimately it probably won't make all that much difference to the outcome - aside from your own comfort zone.
The way it works is this; unless you were lucky enough to transition before anyone outside your immediate family knew you, however well you actually do "pass," to use your terminology, someone will find out about you, and WILL then use that information to make sure that others comment negatively on your presentation or whatever – and irrespective of how good you actually DO look – those so commenting with negative intent, will rely on your own fear and insecurity to make you feel like you don't quite cut it...
The bottom line is you may actually look absolutely 100% right to someone who doesn't know you - but to anyone who has been "told" of course you won't – even if you actually do – because they "know" and so they will always contrive to convince themselves that they can see the signs of your origins, otherwise they might have to admit to themselves that men and women aren't really that different after all. (which personally as an intersex woman I am 100% convinced of and comfortable with – but which truth I find most people both cis and trans are rather uncomfortable with!)
The bottom line is however well you prepare – you are going to get some comments and some of them will not be nice. So one way or another you do just have to learn to deal with it, and ironically the better you deal with it, and the less it affects you, the less it will tend to happen. I don't give a ->-bleeped-<- whether someone thinks I'm male female or in between, and ironically I never get any questions...
Yes I did have the advantage of a childhood spent more less in my current gender – and yes my treatment was completed 3 decades ago, but actually thinking about it now I think it has far more to do with the fact the I care so little, that on the odd occasion when someone does mis-gender me I really don't even notice. (and of course if they did do it deliberately – the total lack of reaction rapidly deprives them of any certainty that their suspicions are right. So they soon stop because they aren't getting a confirming reaction from me – and everyone else is looking at them like they are the smelly nutter on the bus!)
I'm at medical school. I'm surrounded by doctors. If anyone is going to recognise someone intersex its them! (A few do know my background because it's a bit difficult to hide when we sometimes practice intimate exams on each other ;-) :D ) and yet I get away with it – not because I look glam or fab or anything much ... but because I'm comfortable in my own skin, and I don't try to hide my differences.
On the contrary I positively own and indeed proudly utilize some of the cross gender attributes that nature has graciously blessed me with – like for example superior strength and size. Very useful if you want to portray yourself as a no nonsense adventurous fit female rugby player! So most of these well educated medical professionals don't see what is right in front of their eyes because nothing in my behaviour or their imagination leads them to look for that particular explanation for it. Instead they just see me as a robust sporty type of woman who is jolly useful in a crisis or a scrap.
Bottom line – however well you prepare you can't escape the initial reactions – but over time with the application of a bit of reverse psychology you can probably move to a place where people stop noticing.
I still present male at my place of work.. I am pre everything and my first and second outings in female clothing was to see my therapist. I did go to a girls night out on friday and I had so much fun and cant wait to do it again. The first place was a sports bar and grill. The second place was a club. Each place had a totally different crowd. And it was such a confidence booster. It felt good to actually be me. Everyone is different in their approach on transitioning. I accepted myself as I am and once I start hrt I will already have my confidence. Keep your head up and do what YOU feel is right.
Quote from: Doctorwho? on September 22, 2013, 05:31:21 PM
The bottom line is you may actually look absolutely 100% right to someone who doesn't know you - but to anyone who has been "told" of course you won't – even if you actually do – because they "know" and so they will always contrive to convince themselves that they can see the signs of your origins...
A real life problem my wife (MTF) experienced several times in the past with lovers who needed a second opinion from best friends, room-mates, etc. if they "can tell". Of course always after they were already told. The affect was to basically kick the legs out from the lover due to his own insecurities. Thus ending the relationship and starting a few weeks of ice-cream binging.
In my case, I slowly switched over everywhere - work, home, etc. - I let my hair grow for a year and a half before fulltime; practiced mannerisms and trained my voice constantly during that period (including at work!); by the time I started hormones I looked like Graduate Steve Jobs:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdailybail.com%2Fstorage%2Fjobs-highschool-graduation.jpg%3F__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION%3D1314230886960&hash=3a90bfc3e408397019feed9895e09988ae16d706) (Seriously - it was scary close)
Then I took eight months for hormones to work their magic, and at the end of it I just switched over. I can't say whether it was "100% girl on day one", but I think it was close.
I'm guessing that'd be the wrong way round for most of you - spend most of a year as male before doing anything - but it helped me get the surrounding bits in place (without anyone really noticing) before I made the switch. So all in all, thanks, take-your-time-therapist! You probably saved my bacon! :D
Annnd I should probably say something for the folks at home.
So. You may be transitioning at an awkward point - a "We're not quite ready to pass all the time yet" point. But keep in mind, if you keep at them, the things that are missing will come. Hair will grow. Voices will improve. Before long you can make it - if not all the way to that magic 100% mark - then a lot closer than you fear you'll have to live with.
Quote from: Heather on September 22, 2013, 10:12:09 AM
Since I see there is a lot of talk about magic pills. ::) I thought I would add that there nothing in this world that ever going to just turn you from a man into a woman. Women start off as girls and grow up to become women. It's a process that takes many years and is not something you can hope to happen all on it's on. It does takes a lot of work and effort to achieve.
I really don't get the whole attitude that just taking a few pills is going to turn you into something that took cis women years to achieve. Being a women isn't about taking a few pills. It comes by putting yourself out there and trying to live as one. Sure you may not be all passable at first but really if your just going to continue living as a guy until you completely pass your going to waiting a very very long time. ;)
I whole heartedly have to disagree with this statement and any statement similar, where yes to be a PROPER as society sees fit girl, you do have to be and act in that particular way. But EVERYONE is different, my own sister for SO long refused to do ANYTHING girly. Did that make her a boy? No, not at all. And even now, she hates doing overly girly things. Women, girls, Men and boys all come with MANY varieties. Make-up WILL make you feel better facially, should it be a requirement? Not necessarily, not really at all. You be the woman or girl you think you should be, but don't let waiting for hormones stop you from starting it now. I haven't and don't plan on changing how I am at all. I'm the same person, I haven't been living a total facade, I am how I want to be. I'm just not presenting as I wish I would because I would personally like some more chest development.
Girl does not equal girly, woman does not equal womanly. Be how you want, just be yourself.
Edit* Not the entire post, but the particular one pertaining to girls growing up as women, assuming it's referring to make-up and shoe obsessions, female mannerisms and the like. There are boyish women out there, don't let non-ideal female mannerisms stop you.
I keep reading over and over agin about "becoming a woman." I'm not becoming anything. I am a woman. Case closed. I guess I'm lucky in that I am naturally femme, act like a woman naturally (or so I've been told my whole life), coulda passed preHRT with laser alone, so maybe it is easier for me to see myself that way. but until recently I din't view myself as a woman until HRT; I just felt like one with no subjective expereince to relate it to. Now I have that.. The experience and being treated the way I am has really changed me. HRT will change you. In many ways it is magic I just think people don't know what magic is. In witch craft, I have been a witch since I was 13, magic is all about herbs. So in a way HRT is magic. But if you really want to expereince full womanhood you have to put yourself out there and there is no need to wait. Forget eveyone. Live for yourself. Plus, LTL, ditch the busnies casual clothes and dress andro. i don't know how you do it. i do it for work and the clothes are pretty femme, polka dots and some pink and purple shirts. And women's size 8 andro flats. Abd I cant stand it.
But sometimes I feel like the odd woman out on this forum. My expereince seems to get put down a lot because I have always been this way and did not discover it and that expereince is put down a lot. Heck, being femme and likeing men seems to get put down and liking looking femme is always called a stereotype by someone. Tangent sorry. I digress.
Quote from: anjaq on September 22, 2013, 02:21:17 PM
One thing about transitioning is that it is a huge experience. It is something that makes us strong. I dont think anyone who is post transition is not a very strong woman. That sadly does come at a price as the reason for that is that not only did we have all the pre-transition time in which we had to be strong not to break, but also we have the process of transition which always means risking being ridiculed or bullied and having to defend oneself in some way - ideally not with that gun but with some snappy words. I think it can hardly be avoided. If only because even if HRt is perfect and laser is done and all that, passing still will not be 100% in a day as with the magic pill as it is a learning process which as all learning happens by making mistakes. And so we make mistakes and learn from them and with that we learn how to "pass" and how to "become a woman". As i see it what we are at the beginning of transition are little girls. Just look at what people write and sometimes the clothes they wear and such. I remember for a while I started to read teenage girl magazines and "Sailor Moon" comics and so on. Its like we got stuck in our female development sometime in puberty and there we still are and have to learn how to become a woman of our real age from that on and that only happens by trial and error - maybe by being told in a harsh way that a belly-free shirt is a bit ridiculous for anyone above 25 . Thats life - transition is a toughie and I think there is no absolutely smooth transition even for those who have a lucky body. Well maybe if you started at age 12 or 14 it would be smooth, but even then the feedback from society is not always good - but trust me - we get stronger with that and this is part of our development towards adult women. So if you have some really good reasons its ok to delay a bit, like laser, which does a hell lof of good in terms of passability when people are close up and reduces the need for those ugly looking thick layers of cover makeup. But it definitely makes no sense to push everything back always. One has to start somewhere and risk something - and if that is being looked at in a bad way because one acts feminine while still presenting male, then that is really not that bad - just ignore them and screw that and maybe take it as a reason to actually stop presenting as male as at that moment that mismatch is actually gone.
I see what you mean. At some point we just have to fight through and do it. Still, I want to do it at the right time. It will never be easier, but at least easier. Then again, I hate continuing as a guy, so something has to give soon.
Quote from: Heather on September 22, 2013, 02:25:34 PM
Well if someone tried to out you based on a pic you posted on a transgender support site you could ask them what are they doing lurking on a transgender support site? :eusa_think:
Believe me, there are some interesting people out there. I'd rather not risk it and face the repercussions of the one lurking bigot or crazy person. Perhaps I'm making things worse than what they probably are, but I have been bullied in the past and have seen some people do evil things. You never know.
Quote from: Teela Renee on September 22, 2013, 05:19:45 PM
Aside from dressing up for timeline photos. I presented as male at work and home up until the day I started my RLE. nothing wrong with it hun. Everyone Transitions diffrently. hell one of my friends went 4 years before even trying on girls cloths.
Thank you for sharing. That's good to know.
Quote from: Kate G on September 22, 2013, 05:02:29 PM
Until you realize that you have always been female you will never have any sense that you are.
My knee jerk reaction was to say listen to your sister but upon thinking about it longer I think you should probably hold off.
If you could try presenting female some place where no one knows you then you might get a feel for whether you are ready or not. But dealing with people who know you from before is unpredictable and people love to talk, and point.
My first time out will probably be with supportive friends (I'll force them to come with me,lol) and hopefully we will go for a bit of a ride. Maybe that will make things easier.
Quote from: Doctorwho? on September 22, 2013, 05:31:21 PM
I agree absolutely that everyone should go at the speed and follow the steps that they feel comfortable with.
However I hate to tell you this, but ultimately it probably won't make all that much difference to the outcome - aside from your own comfort zone.
The way it works is this; unless you were lucky enough to transition before anyone outside your immediate family knew you, however well you actually do "pass," to use your terminology, someone will find out about you, and WILL then use that information to make sure that others comment negatively on your presentation or whatever – and irrespective of how good you actually DO look – those so commenting with negative intent, will rely on your own fear and insecurity to make you feel like you don't quite cut it...
The bottom line is you may actually look absolutely 100% right to someone who doesn't know you - but to anyone who has been "told" of course you won't – even if you actually do – because they "know" and so they will always contrive to convince themselves that they can see the signs of your origins, otherwise they might have to admit to themselves that men and women aren't really that different after all. (which personally as an intersex woman I am 100% convinced of and comfortable with – but which truth I find most people both cis and trans are rather uncomfortable with!)
The bottom line is however well you prepare – you are going to get some comments and some of them will not be nice. So one way or another you do just have to learn to deal with it, and ironically the better you deal with it, and the less it affects you, the less it will tend to happen. I don't give a ->-bleeped-<- whether someone thinks I'm male female or in between, and ironically I never get any questions...
Yes I did have the advantage of a childhood spent more less in my current gender – and yes my treatment was completed 3 decades ago, but actually thinking about it now I think it has far more to do with the fact the I care so little, that on the odd occasion when someone does mis-gender me I really don't even notice. (and of course if they did do it deliberately – the total lack of reaction rapidly deprives them of any certainty that their suspicions are right. So they soon stop because they aren't getting a confirming reaction from me – and everyone else is looking at them like they are the smelly nutter on the bus!)
I'm at medical school. I'm surrounded by doctors. If anyone is going to recognise someone intersex its them! (A few do know my background because it's a bit difficult to hide when we sometimes practice intimate exams on each other ;-) :D ) and yet I get away with it – not because I look glam or fab or anything much ... but because I'm comfortable in my own skin, and I don't try to hide my differences.
On the contrary I positively own and indeed proudly utilize some of the cross gender attributes that nature has graciously blessed me with – like for example superior strength and size. Very useful if you want to portray yourself as a no nonsense adventurous fit female rugby player! So most of these well educated medical professionals don't see what is right in front of their eyes because nothing in my behaviour or their imagination leads them to look for that particular explanation for it. Instead they just see me as a robust sporty type of woman who is jolly useful in a crisis or a scrap.
Bottom line – however well you prepare you can't escape the initial reactions – but over time with the application of a bit of reverse psychology you can probably move to a place where people stop noticing.
That's true. Yet, I really want to have the best first experience possible. I guess mitigate the potential damage and learn to handle my fear. And then again, I really don't want to keep waiting forever. Believe me, I realize I'm a frustrating person,lol.
Quote from: Erin Brianne on September 22, 2013, 05:33:57 PM
I still present male at my place of work.. I am pre everything and my first and second outings in female clothing was to see my therapist. I did go to a girls night out on friday and I had so much fun and cant wait to do it again. The first place was a sports bar and grill. The second place was a club. Each place had a totally different crowd. And it was such a confidence booster. It felt good to actually be me. Everyone is different in their approach on transitioning. I accepted myself as I am and once I start hrt I will already have my confidence. Keep your head up and do what YOU feel is right.
Thanks for sharing. I guess my problem is I do know what feels right. I feel so many things that my head is spinning. If I had to choose, I would imagine waiting a little bit more is for the best. That way I can start part time in January or so with a little more experience and preparation. On the other hand, the more I wait the worse the dysphoria gets. Like, I've always been jealous of other girls, but it's reached an insane level lately. While jealousy isn't a good thing, I can't help but feel it. Why didn't we all get to be cisgirls and why do we have to deal with the struggle of being trans? I realize that is just whining and it isn't productive, but that's what I keep feeling when I look at other girls my age. It's really frustrating.
Quote from: ZoeM on September 22, 2013, 05:53:21 PM
In my case, I slowly switched over everywhere - work, home, etc. - I let my hair grow for a year and a half before fulltime; practiced mannerisms and trained my voice constantly during that period (including at work!); by the time I started hormones I looked like Graduate Steve Jobs:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdailybail.com%2Fstorage%2Fjobs-highschool-graduation.jpg%3F__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION%3D1314230886960&hash=3a90bfc3e408397019feed9895e09988ae16d706) (Seriously - it was scary close)
Then I took eight months for hormones to work their magic, and at the end of it I just switched over. I can't say whether it was "100% girl on day one", but I think it was close.
I'm guessing that'd be the wrong way round for most of you - spend most of a year as male before doing anything - but it helped me get the surrounding bits in place (without anyone really noticing) before I made the switch. So all in all, thanks, take-your-time-therapist! You probably saved my bacon! :D
Annnd I should probably say something for the folks at home.
So. You may be transitioning at an awkward point - a "We're not quite ready to pass all the time yet" point. But keep in mind, if you keep at them, the things that are missing will come. Hair will grow. Voices will improve. Before long you can make it - if not all the way to that magic 100% mark - then a lot closer than you fear you'll have to live with.
Thanks for sharing Zoe! I don't know why, but your transition always inspired me. Maybe it's because we are close in age, but I also always appreciated your care and love for your family.
In any event, I'm glad to hear that a slow transition can work out. Maybe I just need to keep doing what I'm doing, although more aggressively, and find a way to cope with the increased dysphoria without putting myself out there prematurely. My therapist is pretty much in the same camp and is helping me solve the more important issues like confidence and self esteem. I appreciate that and believe the agenda we have set has been working. Still, I need to do more while I wait for the right moment and have to learn how to cope with dysphoria until I'm ready.
Quote from: Sierra Belle on September 22, 2013, 09:48:18 PM
I whole heartedly have to disagree with this statement and any statement similar, where yes to be a PROPER as society sees fit girl, you do have to be and act in that particular way. But EVERYONE is different, my own sister for SO long refused to do ANYTHING girly. Did that make her a boy? No, not at all. And even now, she hates doing overly girly things. Women, girls, Men and boys all come with MANY varieties. Make-up WILL make you feel better facially, should it be a requirement? Not necessarily, not really at all. You be the woman or girl you think you should be, but don't let waiting for hormones stop you from starting it now. I haven't and don't plan on changing how I am at all. I'm the same person, I haven't been living a total facade, I am how I want to be. I'm just not presenting as I wish I would because I would personally like some more chest development.
Girl does not equal girly, woman does not equal womanly. Be how you want, just be yourself.
Edit* Not the entire post, but the particular one pertaining to girls growing up as women, assuming it's referring to make-up and shoe obsessions, female mannerisms and the like. There are boyish women out there, don't let non-ideal female mannerisms stop you.
I agree with this; however, some of us really do have a hard time allowing ourselves to be ourselves. I know I consistently stifle myself all the time. For example, I may notice a friend or one of my sisters wearing a cute outfit and may want to complement them, but then I realize that's really femmy and I shouldn't embarrass myself like that. That's just one example, but I always hold myself back out of fear. It's weird, I know, but I need to learn to be comfortable being the authentic me. Still, I agree that no one should be something they aren't or act in a manner that they don't desire to. Whatever that is, go out and be true to it.
Quote from: Joanna Dark on September 22, 2013, 10:15:05 PM
I keep reading over and over agin about "becoming a woman." I'm not becoming anything. I am a woman. Case closed. I guess I'm lucky in that I am naturally femme, act like a woman naturally (or so I've been told my whole life), coulda passed preHRT with laser alone, so maybe it is easier for me to see myself that way. but until recently I din't view myself as a woman until HRT; I just felt like one with no subjective expereince to relate it to. Now I have that.. The experience and being treated the way I am has really changed me. HRT will change you. In many ways it is magic I just think people don't know what magic is. In witch craft, I have been a witch since I was 13, magic is all about herbs. So in a way HRT is magic. But if you really want to expereince full womanhood you have to put yourself out there and there is no need to wait. Forget eveyone. Live for yourself. Plus, LTL, ditch the busnies casual clothes and dress andro. i don't know how you do it. i do it for work and the clothes are pretty femme, polka dots and some pink and purple shirts. And women's size 8 andro flats. Abd I cant stand it.
But sometimes I feel like the odd woman out on this forum. My expereince seems to get put down a lot because I have always been this way and did not discover it and that expereince is put down a lot. Heck, being femme and likeing men seems to get put down and liking looking femme is always called a stereotype by someone. Tangent sorry. I digress.
I don't think liking men or acting fem is seen as a negative here at all. I fit in the same camp, except I have a lot of social holding me back from acting fem. It's not so much that I need to learn it or experience it, but rather I need to feel comfortable embracing the way I've always wanted to interact with others. Even when I do try to hide it, I'm not always the best as most people I have met in my life have assumed I'm gay. I'm probably make no sense right now, but I assure you, it makes sense to me,lol.
The business clothes was more of an extension of my desire to positively stand to among my peers. Attire makes an initial impression on others and give you the chance to prove yourself. I always had the respect of my professors and was given a lot of responsibilities for this reason. The same can be said about my short work experience. I suppose I've recently fallen from grace in many ways, but that's okay. I'm picking myself and starting over. Hopefully this time I will stand out in a positive way for being the real authentic me. Now I just need to learn how to show the real me,lol.
Your sister sounds like a wonderful person!!
This reminds me slightly of an interview with Cher I seen earlier today. They asked her about her son Chaz, she said it took awhile to get use to what was happening, as she kept talking she never said her or him....I was getting a bit worried wondering how she really felt. Then at the end she mentioned in her usually sarcastic funny way...."hell I still use the wrong pronouns, but he's definitely a man!! I could completely understand what she meant. I felt vey good for Chaz. It is so hard for people so close to call you the proper pronouns. I have been FT for over 2 years now, my children still call me him quite a bit, it does hurt because they don't treat me like a "him" they're just so use to it. I can't blame them, but I do correct them and say I am not referred to as him anywhere else!!
Your sister is right, your not going to just wake up one day! My transition took over 3 years before I came out and then a little longer before I went FT. I took everything very slow and never marked a day I would do something or remember when I did do something significant. I was even still was working as him after my legal name change....though not for long. I could of went FT a year before I did since I was being gendered female even when people knew my very typical man name, I also stopped being gendered male on the phone even though I didn't think my voice changed that much. This is how gradual I took things. The voice was the biggest fear, I refused to fake my voice for the rest of my life. The thing is I am faking it but it doesn't seem that way, even if I get very lazy and just relax my voice it still sounds like a woman's.
I'm not a big believer of just changing over in one day, I don't think it's fair to the ones that love you. Even when I did go FT I still kept things mellow.....though I' m not overly girly to begin with...but definitely not a tomboy. The biggest noticeable change I made more present was the fact I had breasts, this was very scary at first...since I tried to hide them for the past year!! I didn't wear any low cut tops, its just they were now out in the open!! Beyond that I didn't wear dresses, paint my nails, wear a lot of jewelry, I was frankly pretty drab for a women. I did this so to not shock the ones I loved. After about 6 months of being slightly drab I got to the point close to where I am now....though I still didn't wear any skirts or dresses. I am now at the point where I own 4-5 dresses and the same for skirts but wear them sparingly, but I like the fact I can when I want and do go through stages where I will wear a dress or skirt 2-3 times in a week.
The biggest challenge I have is convincing myself I am nothing of a man any more....I am a woman!! some trans are more secure with their selves even though others may not see them as much as a woman as they do...and quite frankly they don't blend in 100% but they are 100% secure with their selves, I envy them!!. I have had much of the opposite happen, I have had people that found out and don't believe, or people very close to me say the same thing Cher said about her son, even my children do not see me as nothing but a woman, they do still call me dad but they treat me 100% as woman, I have had instances happen that should eliminate any thoughts that I appear as anything but a woman, one that included my ex .....so then why can't I do the same for myself!!
The hardest part of being trans is convincing yourself, its harder for some if others don't see them the same as they do, but then it may be easier since they may be more comfortable being trans....but for someone like me "the so called passable" I can't get over the fact I use to be a man. I think its harder since I don't want to be known as trans...I just want to be an ordinary woman. I realize it's been just over two years but I fear this feeling will never go. I can guarantee not a single cis person goes around thinking "I wonder if they know I use to be a ......". I feel the few small things that still happen don't help, even my sister who has the view similar to Cher still says little things that make me feel like she thinks of me as a man, its not the mis-gendering (which isn't often) its just the attitude certain times. I find that I just don't want to be around anyone that knew me as him, but that's impossible!!
I have heard some say that they couldn't appear as a man if they tried. I don't believe this to be true. I think I could pull off appearing as a man fairly well.....acting I don't know! I do wonder though if I went out as "him" would I pass....I sometimes think I need to try this just to convince myself that I am a woman!!
Quote from: learningtolive on September 22, 2013, 10:46:14 PM
I agree with this; however, some of us really do have a hard time allowing ourselves to be ourselves. I know I consistently stifle myself all the time. For example, I may notice a friend or one of my sisters wearing a cute outfit and may want to complement them, but then I realize that's really femmy and I shouldn't embarrass myself like that. That's just one example, but I always hold myself back out of fear. It's weird, I know, but I need to learn to be comfortable being the authentic me. Still, I agree that no one should be something they aren't or act in a manner that they don't desire to. Whatever that is, go out and be true to it.
Well, yeah, where it applies, totally. But it shouldn't be used as a general umbrella statement for everyone. You shouldn't have to "fake" to be who you want, which is what I feel the push for make-up and girls personas is doing. Because not EVERY girl is GIRLY. This dysphoria I don't think has as much to do with being girly for some as it is to just be a girl, like me. (Though, I do appreciate girliness, and am in fact girly.)
Quote from: Sierra Belle on September 22, 2013, 09:48:18 PM
I whole heartedly have to disagree with this statement and any statement similar, where yes to be a PROPER as society sees fit girl, you do have to be and act in that particular way. But EVERYONE is different, my own sister for SO long refused to do ANYTHING girly. Did that make her a boy? No, not at all. And even now, she hates doing overly girly things. Women, girls, Men and boys all come with MANY varieties. Make-up WILL make you feel better facially, should it be a requirement? Not necessarily, not really at all. You be the woman or girl you think you should be, but don't let waiting for hormones stop you from starting it now. I haven't and don't plan on changing how I am at all. I'm the same person, I haven't been living a total facade, I am how I want to be. I'm just not presenting as I wish I would because I would personally like some more chest development.
Girl does not equal girly, woman does not equal womanly. Be how you want, just be yourself.
Edit* Not the entire post, but the particular one pertaining to girls growing up as women, assuming it's referring to make-up and shoe obsessions, female mannerisms and the like. There are boyish women out there, don't let non-ideal female mannerisms stop you.
I really wouldn't talking about being overly girlie. I haven't wore a dress in public in like 10 months so I definitely not advocating being real girlie. Also if your too girlie your going to stand out too much.
And also the reason I gave the advice I gave was because passing is very important to LTL. And its all good to say be yourself no matter how masculine your acting. But if you don't want people to notice you that's a bad idea.
The whole reason for my post in the first place was to encourage LTL to get out and be herself. I wasn't telling her how to dress or act that is something we all learn on our own and can't be taught. Getting out and trying to live as yourself is the most important part of transitioning I think.
Your sister is on to something. If you wait for hormones to make you feel satisfied and confident while you're not even trying, there's a 99 % chance you'll never do anything.
That said, 3 months of decent HRT isn't nearly enough to be saying that you should just stop waiting for hormones and go forth with life. Some do it and I respect their courage, but the fact is that after 3 months, you're only starting. It's fine to continue waiting. But don't drag that on to two years. That would be a tad long.
As for me... I'm a rather special case because even though HRT has improved my looks and all, I still don't have breasts and retain an annoying belly. So a point of real satisfaction and confidence has never come. But I set myself a moment to transition socially, and however scary, I respected the schedule. And I'm glad I did.
I think you should do that. Set yourself a rough date when logically hormones should've had enough time to give you satisfying changes, and do it then. Doing so will free you from both the fear of never finding the will to do it and the guilt of not doing it right now.
Also, it's just my personal opinion, but personally I don't see the point of there being a "part time" step at all. I just changed from the day I bought my padded bra, and didn't go back. I just threw away all of my bad clothes just then and started getting some female stuff.
Admittedly, given my budget, it was a bit hasty on my part and I ran out of clothes a tiny bit, because I don't have a car to efficiently go shopping and I can only afford thrift stores (and even then, right now I can't even afford those anymore), but you get the idea. I think doing things overnight and completely is the easiest way to do it. I think doing a part-time stage would do little but prolong the agony and give you an excuse to delay more.
Although what you can do until the chosen date is to be more yourself. Without actually transitioning, I think you should try to free yourself and your personality more. It's the only way I could wait so long. I just stopped being a real guy, and I started seeing being viewed as a fake guy/girly guy/person of unknown gender/etc. as much better than being seen as a man.
As a bonus, it made going full time a breeze (that sure did look like a hurricane from afar), because people expected and understood it as an explanation to my unusual behaviour. There weren't even any comments from my classmates.
No change in relationships (slight improvement maybe because I'm more comfortable with myself). No questions.A few very rare slip-ups because they've called me my old name for two whole years, but that's all. It doesn't seem to surprise them, even though most of them have probably never seen a transsexual.
Because I was myself as much as doable, it just made sense to them. If I'd tried to act male, though, I'm pretty sure the news would have surprised people more and the coming-out process would have been more of a pain to deal with.
So yeah, I think freeing yourself and your personality is the one thing you need to start doing. Don't rush yourself for the concrete big step, but try to act more like yourself. Every improvement in that domain will, I'm sure, ease things a lot and gradually turn the hurricane into a breeze.
I think you need to take things at the pace you feel most comfortable. It's not really for others to decide how fast you do things. Also, hormones (and the effects they have on your mind) and coming to terms with things, these are things you're doing right now, and they are big steps! You don't have to feel like you have been just stagnating. You will do whatever needs to be done when the time comes.
BUT.. it does take time to adjust to a new gender role and, more than likely, you will have to go through an awkward phase(s) before you settle in and things become more normal. That awkward period won't start until you start trying to be yourself publicly, so yeah, the sooner you can get going, the sooner you'll be done with it. Some personalities (like mine, btw) need a little nudging, and if that's you, be thankful for your sister :). It won't happen magically, and hormones only go so far.
Quote from: A on September 23, 2013, 12:53:23 AM
Also, it's just my personal opinion, but personally I don't see the point of there being a "part time" step at all. I just changed from the day I bought my padded bra, and didn't go back. I just threw away all of my bad clothes just then and started getting some female stuff.
[...]
Although what you can do until the chosen date is to be more yourself. Without actually transitioning, I think you should try to free yourself and your personality more. It's the only way I could wait so long. I just stopped being a real guy, and I started seeing being viewed as a fake guy/girly guy/person of unknown gender/etc. as much better than being seen as a man.
Well I guess once you do what you describe in the second part, you WERE already transitioning. Tranistion is far more than dressing female, at least for most of us. It is also about re-discovering our core personality, about stopping to be someone we are not - and that is not only physical, all too often we have built up that fake protective persona around our true selves that made it through the days. Its natural I think and those who have not done so are blessed, for all the others transition starts when the male act is ended and one starts to just be oneself, no matter the body or clothes. And yes at that stage definitely people will be utterly confused at you as they see for the first time the mismatch that before only yourself experienced.
The point in doing part time for me was twofold - for once I could not stand to not be as I felt I am, but was too scared in some situations. It took a while to overcome that fear. And the other part was that I could experiment a bit with style and looks to see what I like and what not and what fits and what not. But honestly once I dropped the male thing, the division between presenting female or male was fluid. The main difference was to use a padded bra and cover any facial hair and there were some clothes I would not wear around some people or in some situations.
Quote from: learningtolive on September 22, 2013, 10:17:15 PM
I see what you mean. At some point we just have to fight through and do it. Still, I want to do it at the right time. It will never be easier, but at least easier. Then again, I hate continuing as a guy, so something has to give soon.
Yes I get that. But I think maybe it is a good suggestion for you as you seem to be more of a person who likes to plan, to set a fixed date for some of the steps if that can help you. Otherwise you may end up pushing that date always further as you will never feel that you are perfect now. I felt I still needed to improve my body looks a year into transition and honestly even now I go look at my face in the mirror and think to myself about what could be better and have some fear coming up as to if people will notice. My point is that the more you go along that path, the less of these telltale signs you will have (or the less maleness in appearance) but the curve is not linear, so at some point you will have to jump it. If I was back in time and had some money, I would have done laser before wearing padded bras or female gendered clothes that showed my HRT influenced body. So I understand if you want to wait for that, but dont overwait it on the 'mones. And DROP THE MALE ACT :P - you will see if you drop that stoic persona for good (if you already know you will not need it anymore that can be rather quick, otherwise it may take some time) you will already feel being in transition, people will start to react differently to you, with 'mnes working you probably will be gendered female at times even with unisex clothes, especially if you got your laser done and then you are on the ride and seriously will feel like it does not even make sense anymore to try and present male. Especially if you really dropped the stoic thing from your mind and memory. If you basically forget it. Then you cannot even go there anymore and all that is left then is to live as yourself and then it becomes silly to wear male gendered clothes unless you have a fashin sense that I know only from butch lesbians LOL.
Quote from: Joanna Dark on September 22, 2013, 10:15:05 PM
I keep reading over and over agin about "becoming a woman." I'm not becoming anything. I am a woman. Case closed. I guess I'm lucky in that I am naturally femme, act like a woman naturally (or so I've been told my whole life), coulda passed preHRT with laser alone
[...]
In many ways it is magic I just think people don't know what magic is. In witch craft, I have been a witch since I was 13, magic is all about herbs. So in a way HRT is magic.
[...]
Heck, being femme and likeing men seems to get put down and liking looking femme is always called a stereotype by someone. Tangent sorry. I digress.
I dont think people put down being femme and liking men. Why would anyone. We are all different. The only time I really dislike this is if people do this not because they actually really want to do it but because they are trying to prove something, like that they are "real women" because they wear dresses - or they do it because they think that only that way they can be perceived as women. If being femme is an act just like being male was before, then it hurts the liberation of the self. So I personally have a bandwidth available like most women do. I have moments in which I really love to be femme (though most of them were when I was younger and going out a lot) and some where I really am a butch going in work-clothes in a hardware shop to get some stuff for our garden. And most of the time I am somewhere in between that depending on my daily mood.
Re "becoming a woman" - I think this comes for many from one thing, that you may not have experienced that way. And that is the fact that many TS start at some time to create a mask to hide behind when society tells them to "man up". This "stoic persona" or shield is what is presented and inside we are in a cocoon. This means that to become ourself again means to first become the girl again that is in the cocoon, which means to break the cocoon and the shields and this is when transition starts. And then we become women as other girls also become women, meaning to go through puberty and adolescence and learning more about ourselves and about what it means to be a woman in this society. So its IMO not a "man becoming a woman" but rather a girl sitting in a coccon becoming a woman, if that makes sense?
And re witchcraft and magic being mostly about herbs - I dont know your flavour of witchcraft, but the flavour I know would disagree. Magic is not mainly herbs, it is a lot more, just like transition is much more than HRT. There is much more going on in terms of liberating energies and cleansing than just herbs, though yes of course herbs or in this case 'mones are a big part of it and it is much harder to work this magic of transition without it :) - but that better goes into the paganism subforum ;)
Uhm, I guess the difference lies in what definition of transition you use. To me, transition really begins when you start presenting as a woman (as in, hello, I am a woman), and it ends when you stop presenting as a man. But many will say that it begins when you acknowledge being transsexual and start moving towards your goal in whatever way, and that it ends... either when you're always presenting as a woman, either "never".
Thanks everyone. This has all be very helpful. You gave me a lot to consider and discuss with my therapist tomorrow! :D
Quote from: Just Shelly on September 22, 2013, 10:48:35 PM
Your sister sounds like a wonderful person!!
This reminds me slightly of an interview with Cher I seen earlier today. They asked her about her son Chaz, she said it took awhile to get use to what was happening, as she kept talking she never said her or him....I was getting a bit worried wondering how she really felt. Then at the end she mentioned in her usually sarcastic funny way...."hell I still use the wrong pronouns, but he's definitely a man!! I could completely understand what she meant. I felt vey good for Chaz. It is so hard for people so close to call you the proper pronouns. I have been FT for over 2 years now, my children still call me him quite a bit, it does hurt because they don't treat me like a "him" they're just so use to it. I can't blame them, but I do correct them and say I am not referred to as him anywhere else!!
Your sister is right, your not going to just wake up one day! My transition took over 3 years before I came out and then a little longer before I went FT. I took everything very slow and never marked a day I would do something or remember when I did do something significant. I was even still was working as him after my legal name change....though not for long. I could of went FT a year before I did since I was being gendered female even when people knew my very typical man name, I also stopped being gendered male on the phone even though I didn't think my voice changed that much. This is how gradual I took things. The voice was the biggest fear, I refused to fake my voice for the rest of my life. The thing is I am faking it but it doesn't seem that way, even if I get very lazy and just relax my voice it still sounds like a woman's.
I'm not a big believer of just changing over in one day, I don't think it's fair to the ones that love you. Even when I did go FT I still kept things mellow.....though I' m not overly girly to begin with...but definitely not a tomboy. The biggest noticeable change I made more present was the fact I had breasts, this was very scary at first...since I tried to hide them for the past year!! I didn't wear any low cut tops, its just they were now out in the open!! Beyond that I didn't wear dresses, paint my nails, wear a lot of jewelry, I was frankly pretty drab for a women. I did this so to not shock the ones I loved. After about 6 months of being slightly drab I got to the point close to where I am now....though I still didn't wear any skirts or dresses. I am now at the point where I own 4-5 dresses and the same for skirts but wear them sparingly, but I like the fact I can when I want and do go through stages where I will wear a dress or skirt 2-3 times in a week.
The biggest challenge I have is convincing myself I am nothing of a man any more....I am a woman!! some trans are more secure with their selves even though others may not see them as much as a woman as they do...and quite frankly they don't blend in 100% but they are 100% secure with their selves, I envy them!!. I have had much of the opposite happen, I have had people that found out and don't believe, or people very close to me say the same thing Cher said about her son, even my children do not see me as nothing but a woman, they do still call me dad but they treat me 100% as woman, I have had instances happen that should eliminate any thoughts that I appear as anything but a woman, one that included my ex .....so then why can't I do the same for myself!!
The hardest part of being trans is convincing yourself, its harder for some if others don't see them the same as they do, but then it may be easier since they may be more comfortable being trans....but for someone like me "the so called passable" I can't get over the fact I use to be a man. I think its harder since I don't want to be known as trans...I just want to be an ordinary woman. I realize it's been just over two years but I fear this feeling will never go. I can guarantee not a single cis person goes around thinking "I wonder if they know I use to be a ......". I feel the few small things that still happen don't help, even my sister who has the view similar to Cher still says little things that make me feel like she thinks of me as a man, its not the mis-gendering (which isn't often) its just the attitude certain times. I find that I just don't want to be around anyone that knew me as him, but that's impossible!!
I have heard some say that they couldn't appear as a man if they tried. I don't believe this to be true. I think I could pull off appearing as a man fairly well.....acting I don't know! I do wonder though if I went out as "him" would I pass....I sometimes think I need to try this just to convince myself that I am a woman!!
Thanks for sharing. Yeah, my sister is great. I know I can count on her; even if she drives me crazy at times, she'll be there for me and I'll be there for her. I'm lucky. In any event, I have no problem "seeing" myself as a female, but allowing others to see me as a female is very scary. At the end of the day, I just want acceptance and not to get hurt.
Quote from: A on September 23, 2013, 12:53:23 AM
Your sister is on to something. If you wait for hormones to make you feel satisfied and confident while you're not even trying, there's a 99 % chance you'll never do anything.
That said, 3 months of decent HRT isn't nearly enough to be saying that you should just stop waiting for hormones and go forth with life. Some do it and I respect their courage, but the fact is that after 3 months, you're only starting. It's fine to continue waiting. But don't drag that on to two years. That would be a tad long.
As for me... I'm a rather special case because even though HRT has improved my looks and all, I still don't have breasts and retain an annoying belly. So a point of real satisfaction and confidence has never come. But I set myself a moment to transition socially, and however scary, I respected the schedule. And I'm glad I did.
I think you should do that. Set yourself a rough date when logically hormones should've had enough time to give you satisfying changes, and do it then. Doing so will free you from both the fear of never finding the will to do it and the guilt of not doing it right now.
Also, it's just my personal opinion, but personally I don't see the point of there being a "part time" step at all. I just changed from the day I bought my padded bra, and didn't go back. I just threw away all of my bad clothes just then and started getting some female stuff.
Admittedly, given my budget, it was a bit hasty on my part and I ran out of clothes a tiny bit, because I don't have a car to efficiently go shopping and I can only afford thrift stores (and even then, right now I can't even afford those anymore), but you get the idea. I think doing things overnight and completely is the easiest way to do it. I think doing a part-time stage would do little but prolong the agony and give you an excuse to delay more.
Although what you can do until the chosen date is to be more yourself. Without actually transitioning, I think you should try to free yourself and your personality more. It's the only way I could wait so long. I just stopped being a real guy, and I started seeing being viewed as a fake guy/girly guy/person of unknown gender/etc. as much better than being seen as a man.
As a bonus, it made going full time a breeze (that sure did look like a hurricane from afar), because people expected and understood it as an explanation to my unusual behaviour. There weren't even any comments from my classmates.
No change in relationships (slight improvement maybe because I'm more comfortable with myself). No questions.A few very rare slip-ups because they've called me my old name for two whole years, but that's all. It doesn't seem to surprise them, even though most of them have probably never seen a transsexual.
Because I was myself as much as doable, it just made sense to them. If I'd tried to act male, though, I'm pretty sure the news would have surprised people more and the coming-out process would have been more of a pain to deal with.
So yeah, I think freeing yourself and your personality is the one thing you need to start doing. Don't rush yourself for the concrete big step, but try to act more like yourself. Every improvement in that domain will, I'm sure, ease things a lot and gradually turn the hurricane into a breeze.
Thanks. I think you're right that my first step should be loosening up my persona and working harder on everything at home. Still, I think the part time stage may be helpful. It doesn't have to go on for too long, but it may help me get adjusted to everything. I suppose it's more of a question of when to go part time. As of right now, I'd like to do this at least by January. I suppose that's a big time frame, so I can adjust it to something sooner if things rapidly improve.
Quote from: Jen on September 23, 2013, 01:06:58 AM
I think you need to take things at the pace you feel most comfortable. It's not really for others to decide how fast you do things. Also, hormones (and the effects they have on your mind) and coming to terms with things, these are things you're doing right now, and they are big steps! You don't have to feel like you have been just stagnating. You will do whatever needs to be done when the time comes.
BUT.. it does take time to adjust to a new gender role and, more than likely, you will have to go through an awkward phase(s) before you settle in and things become more normal. That awkward period won't start until you start trying to be yourself publicly, so yeah, the sooner you can get going, the sooner you'll be done with it. Some personalities (like mine, btw) need a little nudging, and if that's you, be thankful for your sister :). It won't happen magically, and hormones only go so far.
I hear you. I just wish there was some way to make my first experiences easy. The reason I keep holding off isn't because I look terrible or don't have the potential to pass, it's more about wanting to pass as best as possible and avoid an awkward beginning (well, fear too). In time, I really do think I will have the potential to pass, but I really feel the hormones can do more and laser will help. So, perhaps it's best for me to wait. After all, it's really only been 3 months of hormones (I really don't count the one month of low dose Estradiol). I just don't know how long. It's a damned if I do damned if I don't situation.
@ Anjaq.
You are right. I shouldn't delay it too far nor should I do it prematurely. I'm really weak and allow fear to control my entire being, so it will be a challenge to start even though part of me really wants to do it. While the fear still has me by the hold, I suppose I can continue working on the other things in the meantime. Thanks.
LTL we all have to face our fears sooner or later. Trust me I still have days where I'm scared out of my mind about this. Today is one of those days but I know I'm not going to get anywhere in life by living in fear.
And I know 3 months isn't a long time to be on hormones and to be honest 9 months isn't that long to be on hrt. Besides breast growth and my skin I honestly don't think hormones have changed me much physically and I can pass as a guy anytime I have too.
What I'm trying to say is don't put too much faith that hormones alone will change your physical appearance. You'll just end up disappointed I know people who've been on hrt for years that can still pass as men.
I've also agree with what some other people are saying there is no right way to go about transitioning and what's right for me is not right for you. You should do what makes you feel comfortable and shouldn't rush that can lead to problems. ;)
Quote from: Heather on September 23, 2013, 01:11:43 PM
LTL we all have to face our fears sooner or later. Trust me I still have days where I'm scared out of my mind about this. Today is one of those days but I know I'm not going to get anywhere in life by living in fear.
And I know 3 months isn't a long time to be on hormones and to be honest 9 months isn't that long to be on hrt. Besides breast growth and my skin I honestly don't think hormones have changed me much physically and I can pass as a guy anytime I have too.
What I'm trying to say is don't put too much faith that hormones alone will change your physical appearance. You'll just end up disappointed I know people who've been on hrt for years that can still pass as men.
I've also agree with what some other people are saying there is no right way to go about transitioning and what's right for me is not right for you. You should do what makes you feel comfortable and shouldn't rush that can lead to problems. ;)
So so so so so much truth, even my own sister brought up this point. Their bodies are different and mannerisms are generally different, they have more muscle in areas where we have them in others, I.E. Chest and upper arms. I mean, in the long run HRT can possibly fix that completely for you in years and years to come as your body reforms it's self on your new style, but if you TRULY want this to go as fast as possible, yoga and other exercises are DEFINITELY good things to get accustomed to. As well as healthy eating during HRT AND accepting yourself for what you are, a girl, a woman.
Edit: she made this point when I told her how much I'd kill to have her body after she complained about it. She told me if I wanted to have her body, I'd need to work real hard to keep it.
Quote from: learningtolive on September 23, 2013, 12:02:40 PM
I hear you. I just wish there was some way to make my first experiences easy. The reason I keep holding off isn't because I look terrible or don't have the potential to pass, it's more about wanting to pass as best as possible and avoid an awkward beginning (well, fear too). In time, I really do think I will have the potential to pass, but I really feel the hormones can do more and laser will help. So, perhaps it's best for me to wait. After all, it's really only been 3 months of hormones (I really don't count the one month of low dose Estradiol). I just don't know how long. It's a damned if I do damned if I don't situation.
Don't get me wrong, if you don't feel ready, then it isn't time. I also waited till I felt like I could pass fairly well before venturing out that first time, partially because I knew how fragile I was emotionally back then and how devastating it would have been to have something bad happen. But... just don't think if you wait long enough you will absorb by osmosis or something how to seamlessly fit into the world as a woman. That comes with living the role, and it does take time—though if you wait you can maybe start at point B instead of point A, and that may well be the best thing for you.
You are in charge or your own course and you know better than anybody the best pacing for your transition, and you should just let how much or little peace you feel guide how much or little you change about your current circumstances. At least that has worked for me thus far... Anyway, don't ever let anybody tell you how you should live your life or how your transition should go.
Quote from: Sierra Belle on September 23, 2013, 02:31:08 PM
So so so so so much truth, even my own sister brought up this point. Their bodies are different and mannerisms are generally different, they have more muscle in areas where we have them in others, I.E. Chest and upper arms. I mean, in the long run HRT can possibly fix that completely for you in years and years to come as your body reforms it's self on your new style, but if you TRULY want this to go as fast as possible, yoga and other exercises are DEFINITELY good things to get accustomed to. As well as healthy eating during HRT AND accepting yourself for what you are, a girl, a woman.
Edit: she made this point when I told her how much I'd kill to have her body after she complained about it. She told me if I wanted to have her body, I'd need to work real hard to keep it.
I'm putting almost all my hopes in this! My diet is practically perfect now (yeah, there are lapses, cheats) and I've started a light exercise program (walking & stretching until I can handle more)... I sure hope it works!
And no HRT for me yet!
Quote from: Heather on September 23, 2013, 01:11:43 PM
LTL we all have to face our fears sooner or later. Trust me I still have days where I'm scared out of my mind about this. Today is one of those days but I know I'm not going to get anywhere in life by living in fear.
And I know 3 months isn't a long time to be on hormones and to be honest 9 months isn't that long to be on hrt. Besides breast growth and my skin I honestly don't think hormones have changed me much physically and I can pass as a guy anytime I have too.
What I'm trying to say is don't put too much faith that hormones alone will change your physical appearance. You'll just end up disappointed I know people who've been on hrt for years that can still pass as men.
I've also agree with what some other people are saying there is no right way to go about transitioning and what's right for me is not right for you. You should do what makes you feel comfortable and shouldn't rush that can lead to problems. ;)
\
Thanks Heather. I have heard the same sentiment from others, so I'm not expecting too much from hormones. I'm just waiting for some of the smaller stuff to take hold. Still, I really wish I could get over my fear and at least start going out a little. I've never been so eager to just get over the fear and actually start the "scary stuff" (as I call it), but I'm getting there and the dysphoria has been increasing to the point that I will soon have to be there. Then again, I'm not fully at that point either. Aren't I frustrating? :D
Quote from: Sierra Belle on September 23, 2013, 02:31:08 PM
So so so so so much truth, even my own sister brought up this point. Their bodies are different and mannerisms are generally different, they have more muscle in areas where we have them in others, I.E. Chest and upper arms. I mean, in the long run HRT can possibly fix that completely for you in years and years to come as your body reforms it's self on your new style, but if you TRULY want this to go as fast as possible, yoga and other exercises are DEFINITELY good things to get accustomed to. As well as healthy eating during HRT AND accepting yourself for what you are, a girl, a woman.
Edit: she made this point when I told her how much I'd kill to have her body after she complained about it. She told me if I wanted to have her body, I'd need to work real hard to keep it.
I've never done yoga. I suppose I can give that a shot.
Quote from: Jen on September 23, 2013, 02:48:41 PM
Don't get me wrong, if you don't feel ready, then it isn't time. I also waited till I felt like I could pass fairly well before venturing out that first time, partially because I knew how fragile I was emotionally back then and how devastating it would have been to have something bad happen. But... just don't think if you wait long enough you will absorb by osmosis or something how to seamlessly fit into the world as a woman. That comes with living the role, and it does take time—though if you wait you can maybe start at point B instead of point A, and that may well be the best thing for you.
You are in charge or your own course and you know better than anybody the best pacing for your transition, and you should just let how much or little peace you feel guide how much or little you change about your current circumstances. At least that has worked for me thus far... Anyway, don't ever let anybody tell you how you should live your life or how your transition should go.
Thanks Jen. I guess I'm just in that awkward phase where I am eager to start, but not yet ready physically or mentally. However, I'm bringing this up with my therapist tomorrow. Perhaps we can develop a better time frame and establish achievable goals while I am remain in limbo,lol.
Quote from: kabit on September 23, 2013, 03:54:36 PM
I'm putting almost all my hopes in this! My diet is practically perfect now (yeah, there are lapses, cheats) and I've started a light exercise program (walking & stretching until I can handle more)... I sure hope it works!
And no HRT for me yet!
Good for you Kabit!
Goals are very helpful for phlegmatic personality types :).
Quote from: Jen on September 23, 2013, 04:20:38 PM
Goals are very helpful for phlegmatic personality types :).
But what about the sanguine, choleric, and melancholic?? Huh? Huh? ;)
Lol not sure :)
Quote from: Jamie D on September 23, 2013, 04:27:32 PM
But what about the sanguine, choleric, and melancholic?? Huh? Huh? ;)
Goals must help the clueless, too... that's where I'm sitting!
Quote from: learningtolive on September 23, 2013, 04:16:17 PMStill, I really wish I could get over my fear and at least start going out a little. I've never been so eager to just get over the fear and actually start the "scary stuff" (as I call it), but I'm getting there and the dysphoria has been increasing to the point that I will soon have to be there.
Not saying to jump the gun, but I want to add that my own fear never fully disappeared until the day I was "forced" to go out as a girl. That was when my special educator came over and suggested to come with me to buy my bra. Then we went to the thrift store to get a little bit of clothes. And before that, the only things that had weakened my fears were occasions where I passed as a woman without especially trying (though in a big winter coat and a huge pompom beanie, hard to assume male whatever the case).
So yeah, when you feel like you might be ready, if you're still too afraid, you can arrange for someone to force you. Thanksfully you have a sister you are close to, for instance.
Quote from: learningtolive on September 21, 2013, 09:44:54 PMI want to be a pretty young girl...
Don't we all. :) I won't be young again anytime soon, so a pretty middle aged woman will work.
Ehh... tonight has been rough. I have spent the better half of the evening crying alone in my room over my situation and my desire to be a normal girl with a normal life. However, that enabled me to come to some sort of epiphany. All the tears shed and fantasies of an ideal life aren't going to solve my problems and make me happy. Something has got to give. Instead of complaining about not being happy and not getting to live the life of my dreams, I'm going to have to work to make my dreams come true. While I have made some effort to make that occur, I can do so much more. Nothing is going to be handed to me, so I better learn how to get where I want to be. Thank you for all the feedback, support, criticism and sympathies. All of you have helped me and now it's up to me to find the next step and fight for my own happiness. All of this will be addressed with my therapists, and hopefully we can create some kind of plan that will help me make some great progress. Seriously, thank you everyone.
Quote from: Sierra Belle on September 23, 2013, 02:31:08 PM
So so so so so much truth, even my own sister brought up this point. Their bodies are different and mannerisms are generally different, they have more muscle in areas where we have them in others, I.E. Chest and upper arms. I mean, in the long run HRT can possibly fix that completely for you in years and years to come as your body reforms it's self on your new style, but if you TRULY want this to go as fast as possible, yoga and other exercises are DEFINITELY good things to get accustomed to. As well as healthy eating during HRT AND accepting yourself for what you are, a girl, a woman.
Edit: she made this point when I told her how much I'd kill to have her body after she complained about it. She told me if I wanted to have her body, I'd need to work real hard to keep it.
Would you recommend starting yoga after HRT has had time to break down a lot of the upper body mass? I had a lot of upper body muscle from lifting weights and a lot of it has gone, but i wanted to wait a half a year more to let it fully melt away before toning it all up again. I mean it's not fat and i am slimmish, but i've always wanted to get into yoga, but am worried it will slow down the breakdown of muscle mass.
@LTL: you go girl! :)
Rather than make suggestions I will just relay some of my experience to date and you can take from it what you wish:
The very first thing I did when I sorted out my mind about my identity was make the switch in my head. This almost fully freed me of my initial stress and depression because I knew I was free to be a woman at any time without any worry. I didn't have to prove anything to anyone. I also decided I didn't care anymore what people thought of me, not specifically in terms of gender presentation, but completely in general. This allowed me to stop controlling my mannerisms and just let everything flow to see how people would take it.
The very first thing that happened was relatives who knew me well said I looked different. At this point I hadn't changed anything about my appearance except that I fully shaved my face. (They have seen me like this in the past however.) The only thing that changed was that I was at peace with myself and happier and more relaxed as a result. This moment solidified everything in my mind for me.
I took this attitude with me into a therapy group and used that as the necessary push to dress openly in front of real people and to have them address me by female gender and name. My fears of dressing in public quickly evaporated and are now the least of my concerns when out in public. The last time I entered my health center in male-mode was when I dropped off the application for a new family doctor. My new doctor only knows me in a fully feminine presentation. I believe this completely avoided having me referred for one-on-one therapy. They strongly advise that HRT applicants be long past the questioning stage. They think of HRT more like a 'final polish' or 'icing on the cake'. I will treat any gains from it as a delightful and surprising bonus.
At the moment I'm out in public en femme about once a week. The reason I am not doing more yet, other than navigating the situation with my employer right now, is that I hate feeling like it is a 'costume'. The effort I have to go to in order to present a slick, passable image makes it seem this way and the extra layers are too hot. I think that this is the way that much of the public treats ->-bleeped-<- - just as a costume - when they can't get their head around the situation and it makes them uncomfortable. I am progressing with real body changes at a slow and steady rate so that every day gently introduces them to a 'new norm' so that when I make the final switch it won't be as much of a shock for them. But more importantly, I will feel much more comfortable presenting openly when I can say that my body is 'real'. If all I get is AA breasts they are still real breasts and no one can say I'm creating them by dressing in a costume. I've grown out my own real hair and I'm getting my own better skin. The less I have to fake the more I'll feel I have 'permission' to be myself openly. If necessary it is entirely fair to present my situation as a chemical mental health issue. Some people will understand much better when I tell them that HRT is primarily to correct a natural chemical imbalance that has been causing me severe discomfort mentally and physically. Body changes as side-effects are easily explained. Since hardly anyone understands anything about HRT and ->-bleeped-<- I'm perfectly content if they think hormones have 'made me want to be a different person'. I'm simply not interested in having to tell everyone my entire life story in the slim hope they might correctly understand my situation.
I'm in agreement that you shouldn't rush as it will help avoid severe stress and emotional crashes. I've just begun HRT and I can't be entirely sure of how this will affect me. I would rather know I can feel healthy and comfortable on these meds before I go telling everyone my intentions. The first week has made me feel better in some ways and worse in others. If for some reason I have to stop treatment I'd like to have not alienated everyone around me first because you can never fully take back a coming out. Everyone will always see you a little differently. You have to be grounded and at peace on the inside with your situation first before you can make great strides in public. I don't feel any less a woman because I have to spend most of my time right now presenting as a man. It would be nice to make the leap and just get it over with but I insist on being practical. What has been kinda fun is randomly going to the same stores or coffee shops in one presentation or the other. I have no idea if they think it's the same customer. Overall it has been most empowering to realize that nobody in the general public really notices much or gives a damn if they do figure it out. I do have the benefit of living in a city where people prefer to stay out of each others' business and where there is a high concentration of LGBT population and awareness though.
I wish you all the best with your progression.
I just came back from therapy and am currently dog sitting, so I wanted to give an update. First, I just realized I don't know how to count. My therapist informed me that it's 2 months since I started Spiro and a regular estradiol dose. I don't kniw why but was confusing my real time frame,lol. Perhaps wishful thinking. In reality its 3 months total of e (one month liw dose and 2 months on spiro and normal e. Now that I realize that I feel better. If I wrote something different forgive me because i kept thinking that. Yeah, I'm a ditz, lol. But I'm happy because 2 months is pretty early. In any event, I"ll right more once I have my laptop available. I hate typing on this phone. I just wanted to quickly say that I feel a little better.
Quote from: Joules on September 24, 2013, 02:00:46 PM
You see now LTL, you're getting to be more feminine already, losing count and such (J/K)
I wouldn't mind those things, but I can't afford to drive any worse! :D
Quote from: Joules on September 23, 2013, 04:33:05 PM
Lol, Jamie, have you been sniffing the cat food again?
LOL
I knew my post would cause all sorts of confusion!
Phlegmatic, sanguine, choleric, and melancholic are the ancient "Four Temperaments."
They were meant to correspond to the "Four Elements."
When I first read that I wondered, "Is she talking about phlegm?!?" Then I realized I'm just unsophisticated.
Quote from: Violet Bloom on September 24, 2013, 01:45:42 PM
Rather than make suggestions I will just relay some of my experience to date and you can take from it what you wish:
The very first thing I did when I sorted out my mind about my identity was make the switch in my head. This almost fully freed me of my initial stress and depression because I knew I was free to be a woman at any time without any worry. I didn't have to prove anything to anyone. I also decided I didn't care anymore what people thought of me, not specifically in terms of gender presentation, but completely in general. This allowed me to stop controlling my mannerisms and just let everything flow to see how people would take it.
The very first thing that happened was relatives who knew me well said I looked different. At this point I hadn't changed anything about my appearance except that I fully shaved my face. (They have seen me like this in the past however.) The only thing that changed was that I was at peace with myself and happier and more relaxed as a result. This moment solidified everything in my mind for me.
I took this attitude with me into a therapy group and used that as the necessary push to dress openly in front of real people and to have them address me by female gender and name.
Up to (but not including) that last sentence above sounds almost exactly like me. I consider myself a pretty well adjusted girl (who needs to clean up some home issues). Maybe I should look into the local group I just found out about!
Quote from: Jamie D on September 24, 2013, 02:11:33 PM
LOL
I knew my post would cause all sorts of confusion!
Phlegmatic, sanguine, choleric, and melancholic are the ancient "Four Temperaments."
They were meant to correspond to the "Four Elements."
Well, obviously. That knowledge is as essential as leeching. Seriously though, I know way too many random factoids like this...
I'd be lying if I said that I don't feel jealous of pretty girls. I'm a bit vain, but not much more nor any different than other transsexuals. If I think about it too much it makes me sick so I just try to focus on the progress that I have made on that front.
I have been reading this thread since it started. I can't contribute much, but I did want to say, LTL, that you are my hero right now. You are facing things that would cripple most people, but you're still there, pressing on.
This whole thread has been a great inspiration to me, and I am sure to many others right now.
I've been noticing a few trans women in town as of late. One of them just started presenting one day, seemingly out of the blue. No apparent HRT, hair was still a male 70/30 part, but in a dress and pearls. A few weeks later, she had more female hair. Don't know who she is, or anything about her, but it looks like she just reached critical mass one day, and that was that. It certainly seems like everyone has their own path. I guess the important thing is to walk it!
So, my meeting with my therapist yesterday went fairly well. As of now, we are targeting for January to be the start of my part time while I continue to make meaningful changes during the waiting period. In her eyes, my confidence has taken a bruising over my unemployment issues and there is some repair that is needed to be done. Still, she does want me to start occasionally making small public showings as female. She kept emphasizing that I'm building myself for defeat because I have unrealistic expectations. On the one hand, I expect everything to go terrible and nothing to go well. With that thinking, it will probably go just as bad as I feel. On the other hand, she thinks I need to let go of my idealized self and embrace my transgender nature. I guess I have developed an image of how I'd like to look and what my life would be and I keep hoping for a day where I will no longer look or be trans. According to her, I may very well pass, but I will always be trans and have to realize this. No matter how hard I try and even if I do pass without any detection, I will never be a genetic girl. While that is quite obvious, the more I focus on this, the more I get crushed. Maybe, I will get used to it with time, but it hurts. I just want to be a normal girl. I'm really not in terrible shape because I have seen many worse before pictures and I'm early into my transition, but it saddens me that I can't change things like my height or my bone structure. Actually, it kills me. I still struggle with the imperfections I have and mainly strive for a day where I will be perfect and complete. My therapist, rightly so, let me know that no one can ever be perfect and we have to accept that we are trans and cannot change everything. Therefore, I not only have to learn to embrace my femininity, but I have to learn to embrace the fact that I will always be trans. Even though that sounds easy, it's still quite difficult for me. I not only want to look like one of the girls, I want to be one of the girls. I know I can be that way and trans, but there are internal conflictions I need to work through. Before I can learn to pass, I need to learn to fully embrace myself and feel pride in being trans. I'm sorry to say, but I still am not there. Here's to more work.
P.S. Sorry if any of this is offensive. I have a difficult time being trans even though I know there is nothing wrong with it. Obviously, I strongly support our community and accept my identity, but I have a hard time accepting some of the challenges we face and limitations that our situations are presented with. In any event, please forgive anything I said if it was offensive, I just wanted to give an honest update.
Quote from: Mariax on September 24, 2013, 07:15:41 PM
I have been reading this thread since it started. I can't contribute much, but I did want to say, LTL, that you are my hero right now. You are facing things that would cripple most people, but you're still there, pressing on.
This whole thread has been a great inspiration to me, and I am sure to many others right now.
I've been noticing a few trans women in town as of late. One of them just started presenting one day, seemingly out of the blue. No apparent HRT, hair was still a male 70/30 part, but in a dress and pearls. A few weeks later, she had more female hair. Don't know who she is, or anything about her, but it looks like she just reached critical mass one day, and that was that. It certainly seems like everyone has their own path. I guess the important thing is to walk it!
I appreciate the positive feedback and am glad that this has been a helpful thread for you and many others; however, I am no hero. I'm far from it. Though, I do appreciate the compliment.
Quote from: learningtolive on September 25, 2013, 09:01:00 AM
P.S. Sorry if any of this is offensive. I have a difficult time being trans even though I know there is nothing wrong with it. Obviously, I strongly support our community and accept my identity, but I have a hard time accepting some of the challenges we face and limitations that our situations are presented with. In any event, please forgive anything I said if it was offensive, I just wanted to give an honest update.
I appreciate the positive feedback and am glad that this has been a helpful thread for you and many others; however, I am no hero. I'm far from it. Though, I do appreciate the compliment.
Congrats at firming up your timeline... your progress is inspiring to me! You may not be a hero, but you are still a role model.
I don't take offense. I know I'll always be trans* -- and that I always was. It's not that I don't like being transgender... I can't like or dislike it... it just is. What I dislike is society's view of us and the misunderstandings, derision, bigotry, & hatred that come of it. It is unfair and unjust considering there's nothing we can do to change who we are. IMO, the best we can do is to be advocates for tolerance and understanding... while remaining welcoming and understanding in our own part.
Good luck!
Quote from: Mariax on September 24, 2013, 07:15:41 PM
I have been reading this thread since it started. I can't contribute much, but I did want to say, LTL, that you are my hero right now. You are facing things that would cripple most people, but you're still there, pressing on.
This whole thread has been a great inspiration to me, and I am sure to many others right now.
I've been noticing a few trans women in town as of late. One of them just started presenting one day, seemingly out of the blue. No apparent HRT, hair was still a male 70/30 part, but in a dress and pearls. A few weeks later, she had more female hair. Don't know who she is, or anything about her, but it looks like she just reached critical mass one day, and that was that. It certainly seems like everyone has their own path. I guess the important thing is to walk it!
I think there was one on my bus ride home:
1.rather masculine voice
2.on close-up, not really feminine face
3.not properly shaved face
4.body shape didn't exactly read female
of course she may very well be cis and if so sorry for saying this, besides what are the odds in this small town in Germany, about 2 hours away from Düsseldorf
She wasn't really bad looking, if she wouldn't have talked, i wouldn't have taken a closer, subtle look.
Quote from: Septet on September 24, 2013, 04:55:39 PM
Well, obviously. That knowledge is as essential as leeching. Seriously though, I know way too many random factoids like this...
At least I didn't bring up black and yellow bile or whatever they were LOL.
LTL, I think your therapist is prob right that everything you have gone through is probably hurting your confidence and taking it slower may be best right now. I don't really know why she feels you need to focus on not being cis though, other than maybe that if you lose the fear that the world may see you as trans, going out publicly will be much easier. However, I find that when I focus on an idea that I will never be this or that it really just makes me feel terrible and seems to serve no other purpose than that.
Quote from: Jen on September 25, 2013, 11:09:16 AM
At least I didn't bring up black and yellow bile or whatever they were LOL.
LTL, I think your therapist is prob right that everything you have gone through is probably hurting your confidence and taking it slower may be best right now. I don't really know why she feels you need to focus on not being cis though, other than maybe that if you lose the fear that the world may see you as trans, going out publicly will be much easier. However, I find that when I focus on an idea that I will never be this or that it really just makes me feel terrible and seems to serve no other purpose than that.
It's not that she doesn't want me to focus on not being cis, but rather that she wants me to come to terms with being trans and finding a sense of pride in it. In some ways, I do. But I also get sad over the fact that my hands will never be slender or my feet will always be larger. Those things make me feel different from the other girls and even if I one day pass, that won't change. My therapist wants me to work hard in coming as close to my idealized self as possible, but also realize that there are some things we as trans women can't change. This does bother me, however, because I wonder if I can ever fit in with other girls and there are certainly things experiences were I have been left out. For example, my sister got a pair of cute shoes on her birthday and she asked my other sister to try them on. That kind of female bonding is impossible due to my bone structure. Little things like that are annoying and make me feel different. So, even if I do pass, there are certain things I have to come to terms with. Also, my therapist realizes that I fear people will see me as a trans woman. I told her that I would even refuse to be seen as even a beautiful trans women. I simply want to be seen as a normal girl and pass 100 percent at all times. To her, this indicates that I have some internal problems with my transgender nature. Her suggestion is that instead of being upset about our limitations or fearing that we will be detected, we should embrace our differences and learn to feel trans pride. She wasn't implying that it's wrong to want to pass or making a comment on my potential, but she does fear my mindset is setting me up for negative experiences. The lesson I'm supposed to learn is love being trans (including the stupid things you can't change like bone structure) and don't care what other's think. I think it's good advice to take in, but I don't know if I will ever see things that way. Passing is very important to me, and I also care about how much I pass to myself, not just others. Even if I turn out perfect in other people's eyes, physical things like my hands and feet, and the emotional things like feelings that I'm always going to be different and excluded from other girls, prevent me from feeling that way. That's why she feels the mentality is important to get over and that I must come to embrace my trans self. I don't know.
This whole trans vs cis thing is just silly IMO.
LTL, You are just a young twenty-something girl. Trans or not, it's largely unimportant isn't it?
Having said that, I don't know how well you're going to pass or blend in... Perhaps your therapist is trying to ready you for difficulties in that area? From what you write though, I don't think you have "internal problems with your transgender nature".
Passing is also extremely important to me... I've said numerous times to my therapist, under no circumstances do I ever want to be seen as a ->-bleeped-<-. I've also mentioned that if I didn't think it was possible to pass 100% at the end of this, I'd have potentially have left this world already. And there's allowances for surgery etc. But that's how important passing is to me. But, like so many others, I can achieve that passing goal too...
I might just mention for anyone interested, I do see numerous transwomen about on occasion. Yesterday I ran into 3.
The first lives close to me and I see her regularly on trains. She passes very very well, and is the ideal size and shape. Her voice is fantastic, and were I not aware of what to look for, I'd never have identified her. She'd pass 100% easily. Sadly, she usually makes a B-line for anywhere else if she sees me... Perhaps worried that I'll out her or something? As if I would.
The second was at the other end of the train journey... I'd not seen her before, but she stood out from the crowd. She was maybe 6'4, and then had heels on too. Overdressed, and really pushing the female image, perhaps too strongly. She didn't pass 100%. I was watching reactions from people near her... They were polite and all, but were uncomfortable near her. And she seemed uncomfortable around people... I felt a little sorry for her...
The third was later in the day. She too was tall, and I'd seen her around before. Perhaps she was a late transitioner or didn't have a great starting point... She was built like a labourer... She knew she didn't pass, but that didn't seem to bother her in the least. She walked proudly, and while people noticed her, they seemed to just notice and then pay little attention. I think that comes from that strong and confident deportment... Much respect to her.
In terms of trans girls, there are many baskets, but I think the three girls above account for a large portion of us. There are those who can, or try to be stealth or blend in... Those who needlessly draw attention to themselves... And those who are comfortable and proud despite any physical disadvantages.
Quote from: SamC on September 25, 2013, 03:40:17 PM
This whole trans vs cis thing is just silly IMO.
LTL, You are just a young twenty-something girl. Trans or not, it's largely unimportant isn't it?
Having said that, I don't know how well you're going to pass or blend in... Perhaps your therapist is trying to ready you for difficulties in that area? From what you write though, I don't think you have "internal problems with your transgender nature".
Passing is also extremely important to me... I've said numerous times to my therapist, under no circumstances do I ever want to be seen as a ->-bleeped-<-. I've also mentioned that if I didn't think it was possible to pass 100% at the end of this, I'd have potentially have left this world already. And there's allowances for surgery etc. But that's how important passing is to me. But, like so many others, I can achieve that passing goal too...
I might just mention for anyone interested, I do see numerous transwomen about on occasion. Yesterday I ran into 3.
The first lives close to me and I see her regularly on trains. She passes very very well, and is the ideal size and shape. Her voice is fantastic, and were I not aware of what to look for, I'd never have identified her. She'd pass 100% easily. Sadly, she usually makes a B-line for anywhere else if she sees me... Perhaps worried that I'll out her or something? As if I would.
The second was at the other end of the train journey... I'd not seen her before, but she stood out from the crowd. She was maybe 6'4, and then had heels on too. Overdressed, and really pushing the female image, perhaps too strongly. She didn't pass 100%. I was watching reactions from people near her... They were polite and all, but were uncomfortable near her. And she seemed uncomfortable around people... I felt a little sorry for her...
The third was later in the day. She too was tall, and I'd seen her around before. Perhaps she was a late transitioner or didn't have a great starting point... She was built like a labourer... She knew she didn't pass, but that didn't seem to bother her in the least. She walked proudly, and while people noticed her, they seemed to just notice and then pay little attention. I think that comes from that strong and confident deportment... Much respect to her.
In terms of trans girls, there are many baskets, but I think the three girls above account for a large portion of us. There are those who can, or try to be stealth or blend in... Those who needlessly draw attention to themselves... And those who are comfortable and proud despite any physical disadvantages.
I don't know. My therapist just wants me to see my potential and realize that despite the fact that I can't change some things (like annoying parts of my bone structure), I can blend and have a successful transition. She isn't saying I'm against being trans, but that I should learn to embrace it more. Without trying to sound offensive to anyone, I don't see being trans a gift in anyway. I'm happy to be a girl, but not so much that I was born a transgirl. I think we should all be proud and we are normal people, but it isn't something that I want to shout out to the world. I want to be stealth and have no one know about it. My therapist isn't saying I have a problem with being trans, but she wants me to find a sense of pride and confidence in myself despite my anxiety about not potentially passing. She has said that she believes that I have the potential to pass, but my mentality about it may make me build an idealistic image that I can never meet because I can't change certain things (my hands, my feet or the fact that I'm 5"11). I know that it's possible to pass with these things, but it makes things harder and makes me feel different than other girls. Passing is 100 percent necessary to me and need to be able to look like all the other girls. I can't be happy without that. It needs to happen. I'm not saying I can't or won't, I probably will pass with more time, laser and hair growth, but I just hate that I have been given social and physical barriers to get where I wish I could be. In any event, she has suggested that I do things to make myself feel better about my appearance and continue working on the things that I can change to make myself feel better and get more comfortable about going out. Obviously, I can't do much about my horrific hands and feet. Sorry, but this has been bothering in a major way the past few days.
Kind of how I am LtL, I wish I had the confidence and pride in myself to come out and tell my family so I can move on..
I don't think it is an easy thing to come to grips with and I have always been jealous of people who take things as they are - as if no matter how hard things get or how bad a day they have they just take it and seem to be ok.
So much so that is how I am online, I am just happy being crazy me - though of course people think I am female....
But we gotta love ourselves LtL, we are all different no one person is the same. If you think about it cis-girls worry about there appearance all the time hehe ok ok its not just girls but guys also, but still.
You told me once not to be to hard on myself for not coming out.
So I say to you, don't be to hard on "yourself". You will pass and you will grow to love yourself!
Quote from: learningtolive on September 25, 2013, 05:42:43 PMPassing is 100 percent necessary to me and need to be able to look like all the other girls. I can't be happy without that. It needs to happen.
And when that very special moment comes true, as i believe it will for you LtL, I hope you are wearing a pretty blue dress and someone is there to throw pink confetti in the air in celebration.
Quote from: learningtolive on September 25, 2013, 05:42:43 PM
I don't know. My therapist just wants me to see my potential and realize that despite the fact that I can't change some things (like annoying parts of my bone structure), I can blend and have a successful transition. She isn't saying I'm against being trans, but that I should learn to embrace it more. Without trying to sound offensive to anyone, I don't see being trans a gift in anyway. I'm happy to be a girl, but not so much that I was born a transgirl. I think we should all be proud and we are normal people, but it isn't something that I want to shout out to the world. I want to be stealth and have no one know about it. My therapist isn't saying I have a problem with being trans, but she wants me to find a sense of pride and confidence in myself despite my anxiety about not potentially passing. She has said that she believes that I have the potential to pass, but my mentality about it may make me build an idealistic image that I can never meet because I can't change certain things (my hands, my feet or the fact that I'm 5"11). I know that it's possible to pass with these things, but it makes things harder and makes me feel different than other girls. Passing is 100 percent necessary to me and need to be able to look like all the other girls. I can't be happy without that. It needs to happen. I'm not saying I can't or won't, I probably will pass with more time, laser and hair growth, but I just hate that I have been given social and physical barriers to get where I wish I could be. In any event, she has suggested that I do things to make myself feel better about my appearance and continue working on the things that I can change to make myself feel better and get more comfortable about going out. Obviously, I can't do much about my horrific hands and feet. Sorry, but this has been bothering in a major way the past few days.
That's a big one, and similar to what was eating me some time back. At the time, I was a few months into hormones, and very little was happening. At that point it almost looked like I was going to be non-responsive to HRT. To a point, that was also true. It was depressing and left me all kinds of frustrated with no easy road to be seen ahead. Further, every little thing about myself disgusted me, and I even had to cover mirrors at times... There were/are also other complications with hair removal which wasn't helping either. So I contemplated what I was going to do and talked at length with my therapist... I decided to give it some more time with HRT and see what happened. I did have rather ambitious goals for going full-time, but it was clear that it wasn't happening on my terms exactly.
All I can say is, I'm so thankful that I have regular sessions with my therapist. Or perhaps I may not be here to type this now...
So that was a big realisation and wake up call... None of this was happening quicker than it could, nor was it happening on
my schedule. While I really really want to go full time ASAP ( and this hasn't changed ), it all depends on passing for me. Accepting this has been difficult but rewarding.
Now I just take it month by month, waiting for that elusive time where I can reasonably pass, all the while HRT works its magic while I constantly work on all aspects of myself. And now that elusive point is getting close due to physical changes from hormones hitting overdrive... :).
All in all, be kind to yourself, and be patient. You will get there when you can... I really do understand the frustration... Also LTL, you're ~ 4 months behind me on HRT. Let me assure you that aside from the last month, the previous 5 months of HRT were rocky as all heck. But that has passed and now I couldn't be happier :).
EDIT: Not to mention, you're also 10 years younger than I am... If I'm going to be fine, then so will you :)
Darn, woke up again as a "male". So frustrating. I just hate my facial hair & it seems so out of place & wrong.
I know there is no other choice that to re start electroysis however I just hate the expense & pain of the visits however I really just have no choice. HRT has done very little to change or reduce these hairs.
Well - bone structure and such - yes that sucks. I wish I had a more slender built as well. But of course yes that cannot be changed and all we can do is to see other women who have these issues and have to buy their shoes in the oversize store etc. I saw a woman this week who had massive "male pattern" hairline loss. And another with huge brow bossing. So some things can be off and still it is ok, one may not be pretty in that aspect but still can be female.
Quote from: SamC on September 26, 2013, 03:52:16 AM
That's a big one, and similar to what was eating me some time back. At the time, I was a few months into hormones, and very little was happening. At that point it almost looked like I was going to be non-responsive to HRT. To a point, that was also true. It was depressing and left me all kinds of frustrated with no easy road to be seen ahead. Further, every little thing about myself disgusted me, and I even had to cover mirrors at times... There were/are also other complications with hair removal which wasn't helping either. So I contemplated what I was going to do and talked at length with my therapist... I decided to give it some more time with HRT and see what happened. I did have rather ambitious goals for going full-time, but it was clear that it wasn't happening on my terms exactly.
All I can say is, I'm so thankful that I have regular sessions with my therapist. Or perhaps I may not be here to type this now...
So that was a big realisation and wake up call... None of this was happening quicker than it could, nor was it happening on my schedule. While I really really want to go full time ASAP ( and this hasn't changed ), it all depends on passing for me. Accepting this has been difficult but rewarding.
Now I just take it month by month, waiting for that elusive time where I can reasonably pass, all the while HRT works its magic while I constantly work on all aspects of myself. And now that elusive point is getting close due to physical changes from hormones hitting overdrive... :).
All in all, be kind to yourself, and be patient. You will get there when you can... I really do understand the frustration... Also LTL, you're ~ 4 months behind me on HRT. Let me assure you that aside from the last month, the previous 5 months of HRT were rocky as all heck. But that has passed and now I couldn't be happier :).
EDIT: Not to mention, you're also 10 years younger than I am... If I'm going to be fine, then so will you :)
Quote from: anjaq on September 26, 2013, 08:05:11 PM
Well - bone structure and such - yes that sucks. I wish I had a more slender built as well. But of course yes that cannot be changed and all we can do is to see other women who have these issues and have to buy their shoes in the oversize store etc. I saw a woman this week who had massive "male pattern" hairline loss. And another with huge brow bossing. So some things can be off and still it is ok, one may not be pretty in that aspect but still can be female.
You're both right. In many ways, I should count my blessings. My starting point really isn't so bad (age wise and looks wise) and I don't believe I will have a major problem blending in the future compared to others, even if I am too afraid to try at the moment. With a little tweaking and time, I probably won't have a huge problem passing to others, even if it is challenging at first and I'm still uncertain how I'll fully turn out. I guess I just can't help but fret about the things that can't be changed. There is nothing we can do about certain things and it makes me feel really paranoid. While passing and society is a major concern of mine, I"m really concerned about if I will ever pass to "myself". Yes, I see myself as female and identify as such, but I know I can't ever match the natural feminine traits of genetic girls. To me, it's horrible to know that I will always be more masculine than they are in some respects. Even if I do one day pass and everyone sees me as gorgeous (perhaps not realistic but what I hope for, lol), I don't know how well I will ever pass in my own eyes. I've always had an intense jealousy of other girls for many reasons. Sometimes I wonder if that will ever go away or if I will ever feel adequate compared to them. A lot of my depression is due to that and it doesn't go away. Even though I am currently feminizing more and now starting to see a girl in the mirror, my jealousy of other girls is through the roof and has increased in a big way. The things is, I know for a fact certain things won't change. I don't just want to pass to others, I want to pass to myself. Believe me, I realize I'm being stubborn and annoying, but I don't want to deal with having masculine traits or not looking feminine in any form. So it's a whole multitude of things (passing, my appearance, how pretty I will be, societal acceptance, how guys will view me and whether they will want a serious relationship with me, how other women percieve me, etc) but my self perception is a huge part of it as well. At the end of the day, it's unavoidable; however, I wish I didn't have to deal with the pressures and limitations of being trans. This is why my therapist feels I need to get over my idealized self and develop a sense of internal trans pride to overcome these pestering concerns which plague and paralyse me.
In any event, I don't mean to offend anyone as there is nothing wrong with us and who we are. As someone who has done their best to be positive about our struggle and helpful to others in the same boat, I hope my other posts and my general attitude illuminates that, but I also want to be honest and not sugercoat my feelings and concerns. I feel honesty is helpful and important to us all, so I'd rather not hide some of the issues I have with being trans in the interest of rallying the troops. While some may believe it's counter productive to focus on some of this stuff, this is what's important to me and I have to find a way to overcome all these issues. Being honest and exposing my issues is the only way for me to get better and overcome my unhealthy fears. And yes, I realize I'm a total huge mess, lol.
Expectation - reality = happiness.
You do probably need to rein your expectations about how your transition will turn out because if you let them be too high it will be harder for you to find happiness. Most women, regardless of birth circumstances, do not get to be beautiful. Most/no women don't get to be flawlessly female without any idiosyncrasies or quirks. You don't want your happiness tied to something that is rarely had.
I think trans pride is a different issue. I think being proudly trans does almost by default manage your expectations in a way, but it isn't the only way to get there and is not exactly necessary. It's A way, not THE way, if that makes sense.
Quote from: Jen on September 27, 2013, 12:54:49 PM
Expectation - reality = happiness.
I don't find that reality meets my expectations often. I'm an optimist... a pragmatic, sometimes cynical one, but an optimist.
I'm usually happy... even when I'm sad, moreso now than pre-coming-out. Perhaps there's a 2nd or 3rd order equation (it must be a differential relationship).
Lol. Idk, it wasn't meant to be an actual math equation. I guess it is in a way?
Quote from: Jen on September 27, 2013, 12:54:49 PM
Expectation - reality = happiness.
isn'it the other way?
reality - expectation = (Net) happiness
As in the normal equation of economics
Assets - Liabilities = Net value
Assets is what you have (your genetics, your history, your Disphoria)
Liabilities is howyou
judge those things.
If you judge them too badly the liability is big and your net value is negative.
Marina
Idk, that makes my head spin lol, but I think it works both ways? Or maybe you're right. Let's go with that :)
Quote from: tmarina on September 27, 2013, 01:57:16 PM
isn'it the other way?
reality - expectation = (Net) happiness
As in the normal equation of economics
Assets - Liabilities = Net value
Assets is what you have (your genetics, your history, your Disphoria)
Liabilities is howyou judge those things.
If you judge them too badly the liability is big and your net value is negative.
Marina
That gives us happiness + expectation = reality... it's causal, so that doesn't really work.
I think it needs to be
dH/dt + dE/dt = dR/dt
change in happiness + change in expectations = change in reality
Which makes sense... as reality meets expectation, happiness remains constant.
Everyone should ignore this derailment, though... I'm talking from my opposite end right now! (Which just reminds me it needs shaving... hate shaving there)
Lol, what have I wrought?
Quote from: Jen on September 27, 2013, 04:16:38 PM
Lol, what have I wrought?
A new field of study: Mathemotions. ;)
Quote from: Joules on September 27, 2013, 03:56:23 PM
to assume a differential status is to expect rapid change, I'd think a simple delta formula would be more appropriate and desireable <Joules running away>
That assumes a micro scale! Happiness is big... reality is huge... expectations are inflated ;) their half lives are enormous.
Quote from: learningtolive on September 27, 2013, 07:31:50 AM
I"m really concerned about if I will ever pass to "myself". Yes, I see myself as female and identify as such, but I know I can't ever match the natural feminine traits of genetic girls. To me, it's horrible to know that I will always be more masculine than they are in some respects. [.....] my jealousy of other girls is through the roof and has increased in a big way.[....]This is why my therapist feels I need to get over my idealized self and develop a sense of internal trans pride to overcome these pestering concerns which plague and paralyse me.
I totally understand and can relate. Honestly me and probably many others do have such issues that you look into the mirror and see this or that thing that looks in your eyes "really male-ish" and then maybe even your whole visual self image breaks down and you just think that what you see in the mirror looks overall a lot more like a guy and then you are either crying, biting your tonge and still go out there or focus on your inner self and manage to get rid of that bad self image for the time being - until next time. Sometimes I think this is totally irrational and concerns party of your face or body that are not even that "male-ish" at all but just has not changed with transition at all and thus is considered by your mind as male looking, or one over-exxagarates some flaw or the other (i liked that story in the post about the great self-built log cabins that all have some small flaw - cant find it right now).
Passing to oneself is quite hard i think. In part because of those parts that just did not change with transition so these are still the same old while one desires a transformation, a rebirth. I dont really honestly know how to solve this or deal with it, as I still have such moments 15 years after beginning transition to the point I consider looking into some ways to get rid of these traits now. I am not sure if that will work - if it is my own ghosts, I cannot chase them away that way.
I am not sure "trans pride" is the right word - in a way yes - I am a bit proud or rather thankful of all the changes that I experienced and how I contributed to that - so I guess that may be "internal trans pride". During transition I was always glad to be seen as female and recognized and that was always a win but at some point this is not working anymore. At that pooint one does not want to think about passing anymore, just live and be and not be "read" at all because one does not want really to think about trans issues anymore. For you that is still a while away I think, so in early transition, I think one really should and can focus on the good experiences and not yet take them for granted. But yes in the long run ones expectations rise. Like for me being openly misgendered twice in one month this year was a huge downer bringing me to the point that I actually reconsider my earlier decisions against VFS and FFS.
One major thing that I believe is happening is that we see flaws in our bodies and appearance as male. We basically think that all that makes us ugly in a way is because we were born XY. So when other girls are just jealous or envious about girls more beautiful or feminine than they are and fret about not having that nice nose or those full lips, for us it is not just that, but it is also the thought that we have that bigger nose because we are born XY and that smaller lips because we had too much T during puberty and so on. For the other girls it is just about that trait - for us it is in addition to that about our identity!
LtL, I think you will be fine. It is just another step to take and each step will lead you to what you seek!
I always enjoy it when the inner-math geek of the members here is released! ;)
...Now does anyone have the formula for eternal life?
Quote from: Violet Bloom on September 28, 2013, 12:45:29 PM
I always enjoy it when the inner-math geek of the members here is released! ;)
...Now does anyone have the formula for eternal life?
Find the geneticists and bio-therapists! They'll fix your gender issues, too!
Quote from: Violet Bloom on September 28, 2013, 12:45:29 PM
I always enjoy it when the inner-math geek of the members here is released! ;)
...Now does anyone have the formula for eternal life?
The formula for eternal life is contained within Pi. You just have to know where to look ;)
Forgive me for being a rambling mess and for taking so much time to respond. Honestly, I've tried to type this post out a few times and have broke down in tears and ran away from it. So expect a messy post.
There is truth to reining in my expectations, but there is more to it. Believe me, I'm no single issue girl,lol. Honestly, I don't expect certain things to change, even if I wish they could. I realize that my hands and feet will remain bigger than your average female as well as my 5'11 height. Despite that, I don't think passing will be as bad as I fear. You know me, I have a tendency to see the worst in everything. Despite my annoyances with the timeframe of hrt, I think I have potential. It's probable that with enough time and effort, I'll likely be okay if I can overcome my fear. If not, a small dose of ffs will easily fix my slight concerns. The thing is, it's not just about "passing" or what my expectations are. It's about the fact that I'll never be able to rid my appearance of some of the more masculine traits that I hate. Yeah, not everything can or will go away (nor do I expect it to), but it makes me feel uncomfortable. And even though there are other girls my height and with bigger hands, it really destroys me. Truthfully, I don't know if I can ever feel good about myself whilst knowing there are some things that will remain. It drives me crazy (it's all I can think about lately). It may be stubborn, but it really does bother me. I just want to see the real me in the mirror I'm sitting here listening to Christina Augilera's "Reflection" and just crying and feeling destroyed. That song is the story of my life because I don't believe I will ever see my reflection or will get to be who I am or at least want to be. I just hope that the more I feminize, the less I will care about the things I can't change. Still, I don't know if that's possible and wonder if I will ever feel happy with myself because of this.
Yet there is even more to the story. There have been some things I've been ignoring and there is a psychological aspect worth looking into. See, there is a part of me that really doesn't know if I will ever pass to myself. While everyone is worried about passing to the world (myself included) we rarely discuss our potential to pass to ourselves. You have to realize that I have a very poor self image and it's something that has plagued me my whole life. My dysphoria is a big part of this, but it is more than that. While I know in my heart of hearts that I am female and want nothing more than to live as one, I don't know how well I can operate as one. I've always been an outsider as a transgirl. Never fitting in. I was different from all the girls and always had intense jealousy of them. But as much as I want to be one and feel like one, I don't know how well I will be able to fit in. There is a post on this site that really spoke to me about feeling authentic and true to oneself. Fact is, I don't know how authentic I can feel even if my trans feelings are clearly there. At the end of the day, can I ever become just another girl? Will I be able to live a normal life as female and do everything that they can? Or will I always be the odd girl out socially and physically speaking? Even if I am accepted, can I ever truly embrace this myself on a mental level? Will I ever be able to come to terms with all of my fears and make things work? This is really up in the air for me. It's not always about passing to everyone else, it's also about embracing ourselves. This has been a difficult thing for me my whole life. I can't explain it, but I hated always being different. As a girl, I was clearly not the same. As a "boy", I was seen as a weird gay guy and got bullied and harassed for that. One of the reasons I get scared to embrace my feminine side is because of my negative experiences. And even when I try to hide it behind my stoic persona, which I try desperately, I fail pretty bad for the most part. So, again I couldn't blend into either gender role for obvious reasons. Besides that, I was always physically different from both sexes. It's obvious why I was different than other girls, but I wasn't alike many of the guys either. Please don't ask me to elaborate on this because it is very sensitive, but I have lived with a genital defect for a good portion of my life that was very painful emotionally and sometimes physically. Thanks to having a surgery, it's no longer a factor, but I'll always remember feeling very different from everyone. I suppose that only added to my body dysphoria and feelings of being an outsider. What I'm trying to say is I don't know if I will ever "fit in" as female. I couldn't as male, nor did I really care too, but I don't know if it's possible as female either. Part of the reason that I seek to transition is for a sense of normalcy in my life. Yet, sometimes I don't know how successful my life will be as female. There is so much physically and mentally that I might not be able to change or overcome. This is why I really feel jealous of all the other girls and just wish I could be like them It kills me. Again, transitioning is really what I want and I'd love to get through all these feelings, but my baggage will come with my journey. While I am not stopping, I just don't know how to get over these feelings and make the transition a successful one.
Sorry for being such a mess. I have so many concerns and issues that I am facing at the moment, so I'm probably jumping all over the place. Like I said before, I'm no hero or role model.
Hello LTL,
I am not going to write a long answer but your story is really touching; I sympathize with
your fear of not passing to yourself, but I think that this is not gender-related.
Before gender there is "being", you cannot be female or male if you do not exist, existence is
before gender and THIS is the thing that seems a problem for you... you will not solve any
problems transitioning if you don't come up at peace with yourself, whichever gender you may choose
to express (male, female,both, none).
Acceptance is the key, you have to find that inner peace, the place where all ramblings will cease,
the deep waters where the waves are not felt. But this is not gender... this is meditation, spirituality,
therapy, self-love.
my 2cents.
Quote from: learningtolive on September 28, 2013, 02:53:20 PM
Sorry for being such a mess. I have so many concerns and issues that I am facing at the moment, so I'm probably jumping all over the place. Like I said before, I'm no hero or role model.
Girl your not a mess so get that out of your head. As far as passing to yourself that is something I think a lot of us deal with I don't really know if I pass to myself yet? When I look in the mirror I don't see a man anymore but I don't see a woman all the way yet either but I know I will someday because I do see her in the mirror more and more often. You'll get there it just takes time and patience.
Your still very much early in this and hormones can have their way with you if you let them. Just hang in there it does get better I had a rough time to early on I learned how to handle my emotions and so will you.
Your just going to have to realize your not a mess and everybody has problems and imperfections. And as far as you feeling like you don't fit in with other trans women I understand you completely on that I kinda feel like I don't fit in that well either. But I've never felt like I fit in anywhere anyways. The main thing is just be yourself and don't worry about how well you fit in. ;)
I think you should stop worrying so much about the future. I used to, only to realize the pointlessness of it. As I went full-time and started to be treated like a girl, I noticed things to be just naturally getting better, that I was fitting in just fine. Now of course I'm still in a semi-artificial environment with only people who knew me before, but I just feel even more comfortable if I end up in a situation where people don't know about that.
Most of that was just pointless anticipation and anxiety, as usual.
Just focus on worrying about what you're going to do now, and on coping with the present. Focus on the next step, not the one behind it or further. 95 % of the future will work itself out without you needing to think about it, and you can deal with the remaniing 5 % when you get there.
I know it's hard to do. If you're even just a bit like me, you're gonna want to pre-imagine every part of everything and make sure everything is gonna be perfect before you even take a step forward. But try to. It'll save you a lot of pain, tears, worries and fatigue.
Quote from: learningtolive on September 28, 2013, 02:53:20 PM
Forgive me for being a rambling mess and for taking so much time to respond. Honestly, I've tried to type this post out a few times and have broke down in tears and ran away from it. So expect a messy post.
...
Sorry for being such a mess. I have so many concerns and issues that I am facing at the moment, so I'm probably jumping all over the place. Like I said before, I'm no hero or role model.
You sound like you could use a girlfriend (BFF, that is) or two to help affirm who you really are... a beautiful young woman who just needs some love.
I don't know your current situation, (I've been reading this, but I get confused off all the threads) but can you find some open people around your age who will be friendly? I admit, I don't know how to do this. College was where I met people... everything else was family. My sister, brother, and his wife are great support, and I try not to load too much on them at once.
I'm also interested in learning to find friends, again. My sister is totally awesome, but has little time for 1-on-1 time (I'm aiming for once a month). I won't be able to do much of this until my wife and I are separated, though... and I have no idea how! I'll be on HRT by then, though.
I know and understand how you write such long posts.... this was supposed to be short and to the point! Sorry! ^-^
First of all, hon, if I could give you a big hug right now, I would. You sound like you need one.
Secondly, I haven't commented in this thread because I've been watching how it unfolds and how you express yourself.
I don't really want to say too much just yet, because mostly I'm going on intuition and a gut feeling, but I would like to ask you a question, if that's okay.
How much of your self esteem and self confidence do you think stems from your identity as female?
/hugs
You are early days in your transition LTL, your worries about passing to yourself will take care of themselves down the line, especially after you are full-time for a while. You will find that you will fit into female circles and be accepted by other women as one of them, and that will help you see yourself as female better, as will when you look in the mirror and see a girl looking back at you. Dysphoria may cause some BDD, and you may not always see it, but it will happen more and more with time.
The more you accept yourself as female, the more other people will see you that way too. The trick is *wanting* and being cognizant of how to fit in with girls. You have those two things I think, so I think you will be fine. Yes, you're bigger than a lot of women, but like you said, there are some bigger than you. Tall girls have big(ish) hands and feet too, btw. You can't judge how any of this will go two months into HRT and not having ever even tried going out as a girl. It's easy, when you sit at the stage where you haven't seen much evidence that things will be fine, to worry that it won't be.
I have a similar personality to you, I will always be my biggest critic, and how people think about me is one of the most important things I know of, and I just want to tell you that it will be fine. You will get there, you just need to hang on. Being trans takes tenacity and strength and I often talk about how I am so the wrong person to have to deal with this condition. I am not a strong person at all. Yet I did it, and I know you will too. I also know you won't believe me till you see for yourself. Hang in there, keep making progress, don't let yourself be defeated, and it WILL happen.
Quote from: kabit on September 28, 2013, 05:35:30 PM
You sound like you could use a girlfriend (BFF, that is) or two to help affirm who you really are... a beautiful young woman who just needs some love.
I don't know your current situation, (I've been reading this, but I get confused off all the threads) but can you find some open people around your age who will be friendly? I admit, I don't know how to do this. College was where I met people... everything else was family. My sister, brother, and his wife are great support, and I try not to load too much on them at once.
I'm also interested in learning to find friends, again. My sister is totally awesome, but has little time for 1-on-1 time (I'm aiming for once a month). I won't be able to do much of this until my wife and I are separated, though... and I have no idea how! I'll be on HRT by then, though.
I know and understand how you write such long posts.... this was supposed to be short and to the point! Sorry! ^-^
I have friends, but they are few in number and quite busy. Besides I don't want to be a bother and throw this stuff on them. However, I am fairly shy and would love new friends. I wish I could find more girls my age to socialize with, but I'm afraid to get out and expose myself. Hopefully in the future.
Quote from: Sephirah on September 28, 2013, 05:49:27 PM
First of all, hon, if I could give you a big hug right now, I would. You sound like you need one.
Secondly, I haven't commented in this thread because I've been watching how it unfolds and how you express yourself.
I don't really want to say too much just yet, because mostly I'm going on intuition and a gut feeling, but I would like to ask you a question, if that's okay.
How much of your self esteem and self confidence do you think stems from your identity as female?
To be honest, I have hardly any self confidence or self esteem; therefore, I can't really answer the question. Nonetheless, I will make an attempt. I'm giving you a long answer in hope that it will explain who I am and how I feel. Plus, I want to do whatever I can to help anyone else struggling.
My identity as female has always been a source of comfort and pain. It's never been one or the other. As a child, I really enjoyed my gender bending. I loved dressing up, playing with makeup and experimenting. My earlier childhood was almost bigender in some respects, but as I got older, I was encouraged to stop these things. When I turned the age of 10, I began to feel frustrated and awkward. I began to compare myself to my female peers and began to believe that I was going down the wrong path. This is when I realized that I really wanted to be more like a girl and actually become one. At this point, I would never have said I "was one" because I knew nothing about being trans. Therefore, I began to dress independently and in secret. It was a big source of comfort during a period of jealousy and sadness when I started to realize how different I was and how I wished I could be female.
However, it's also been a source of pain. I hated the fact that I was different and seen as a freak in the eye's of god (very Catholic upbringing). Clearly, it's not normal for a 10 year old "boy" to wear "his" sister's clothes in secret. Most people get to be normal and not worry about their gender. When I was a teenager, I got very depressed. I made it a point to isolate myself and hide away as much as possible. I really didn't want to make friends with most of the guys because I didn't relate and besides I was bullied often by jokes and the like. As for the girls, I was completely different from them despite my desire to be one and join them socially speaking. To be honest, I didn't know how to socialize. It felt fake to try to be a typical guy and it felt unnatural for me to want to be female and attempting to embrace those feelings. In many ways, I hated myself for having those desires and did my best to suppress them. I avoided dressing up, but would occasionally do so in private. Partly, I withdrew from socializing as much as possible and hid within myself. I found other ways to express myself outside of facing myself and putting the potential rejection of others (mainly music and unfortunately the occasional usage of drugs). In many ways, my ability to express myself could only come out in song, never in my words (besides poems and lyrics).
After high school, I began to embrace my feelings a bit more. I learned more about the lgbt community and felt comfortable embracing my attraction to guys despite my long fear of admitting it. However, I knew saying I was gay was a lie. In some respects, being gay allows more liberties to express oneself in a feminine manner, but it clearly isn't the solution for someone who identifies as trans. After some brutal honesty and exposing myself to the trans community, I came to admit that I didn't want to be a girl, but I was really a girl. I started to feel more at ease and comfortable with the fact that I was trans. A big part of this was that I made a trans friend and saw that she was able to live a happy and successful life. At this point in my life (19-20 years old), I started to embrace my identity and expressing myself around friends. My best friends where aware of my identity and always called me the correct name (at the time Jenny) and pronouns. It's was lovely in many ways and there was less pressure on me. Still, I had so much guilt and self hatred that I couldn't allow myself to make the final step and overcome my social anxiety and fears. As much as I wanted to transition and made small steps to prepare myself, I wasn't ready. I had a bit of a breakdown and decided to not transition. At this point, I went into denial mode. I cut my hair, stopped wearing my more fashionable designer clothes and took up a more business causal look, took up as many activities in college, did volunteer work outside of it, and absorbed myself in my studies. For this reason, I did really great in school and was very proud of it. I was respected by many of my professors and had the jealousy of some of my peers. Yet, I was never happy with myself on a personal level or fulfilled socially. I still hated myself and regretted the fact that my internal desires never went aways despite my efforts to ignore them. In many ways, I was finding things to do to take my mind off of myself and my feelings, but it wasn't working. Whenever I had down time, I would crash pretty hard. At this point, I found bad ways of dealing with the pain rather than addressing them.
After college, I worked a very busy job. I loved it and was quite good at it. It was in my field and exciting for someone that graduated with my major. But as it was a temp job, it came to an end. This is where my rock bottom was reached. Unemployed and riddled with dysphoria, I tried to cope with opiates. I kept hoping some of the promises made to me would come true and I'd have another busy job to absorb myself in, but I never got anything. As a result, I was depressed and down for multiple reasons and continued my self destruction to avoid feeling. I just didn't want to feel anything and focus on my demons. I simply wanted another distraction and way too take my mind off of the pain. So, I spent 4 months getting high every day. Wasting my potential and throwing all my ambitions out the door. I can't say exactly when I reached my epiphany, but I had enough. I knew I had to stop destroying myself and find a way to reach true happiness instead of avoiding it. I gave up the drugs, started searching for a job, and began to take the steps to begin my transition. As of now, I'm happy to be on the hormones. Each day that I develop is another good day. Yet, my life still hasn't taken off and I still have the same fears. Things have improved in my life (I'm 7 months clean, on hormones, in therapy, will be working as soon) but the transition that I wanted and desired is on standstill. It's soo slow and it kills me to continue living another day without the ability to truly embrace myself. In many ways, I'm delaying it as much as possible as I did in the past, but I'm killing myself as a result. I don't know how to overcome this and spend most of my time wasting my day away (when I am not studying or reading) to avoid thinking about this stuff.
In many ways, I'm still that little kid wearing her sister's clothes and looking in the mirror. Desperately wanting to be something, but afraid of rejection from society and worst of all herself. And without knowing how to overcome this, she crys and latches onto misery, only finding alternative ways to express the things she always wished she could get out. At heart I'm still that 11 year old girl, not knowing what to do and where to go. She may be grown up (I'm 24) and more experienced, but she's still just looking into the mirror not knowing how to be herself and live the life she dreams about. So, my gender is very much a mixture of pain and comfort. I like being a girl and enjoy being seen and treated as one. However, I hate being trans and always feeling the pressures and fears that come with it. The fact is I don't like being trans even though I don't mind feeling female.
Besides my gender, I get a lot of self esteem through others. I really like to help other people and be a part in their development. Most of my work and volunteer experience has had me in a mentor or peer leadership role. I've had so many roles where it was my responsibility to help others and motivate them to improve or learn a new task or subject. As such, I get great pride for assisting others and watching them succeed. It's something I've always been good at and makes me feel happy. Sadly, I've never know how to help myself and find myself fumbling everytime I do try. It's not that I don't have the answers, but I fear them. This is probably why I give so much of myself here. I truly want to help others and in the process help myself. Despite my lack of ability to save myself, I do have something to give others because I realize what the answers are even if I refuse to accept them for myself and fear working on these things.
I'm rambling at this point, but this is perhaps the best explanation I can give. Hope it helps.
P.S. I've always loved your writing style and the thought you behind your posts. Just wanted to say that I admire you and think you're an excellent Moderator.
@Jen, A, and Heather.
Thank you for you encouragement. All three of you have been very sweet to me throughout my time on this board. I do appreciate it and it means a lot. As for the content of your posts, I agree that much of what you say is probably true. If I were rational, I would embrace those posts as I would probably say the same to another poster myself. Yet, I am not able to embrace logic at the moment and have allowed fear to overtake me. I hope I'll find a way to overcome it and find happiness.
Your post does actually shed a lot of light upon why you feel the way you do, hon. More than I'd hoped for, to be honest. Thank you, sincerely. And for the kind words, too. I see some of myself in you.
Rather than tell you what I think (you get enough of that here, lol), I would like to ask you another question. And... it may be a difficult one to consider, much less answer. But also it may... hmm... just shut up and ask it, Seph.
Do you think it's possible that, the anxiety you have about passing and actually having the opportunity to integrate fully as your true self... well... do you think a part of that stems not from the idea that you won't pass as female, or be accepted as such... but that your past coping methods have left an effect on you to where you're scared that not achieving these things will... hmm, how to put it... will feel like you tried everything and it wasn't enough for you? That it has to be all or nothing and you feel like this is a culmination of everything you can possibly do to make your life be the way you want it to be?
I don't know if that makes any sense. I guess what I'm asking is that whether the fear is more of a fear of failure in your own mind than a fear of other people's reactions. And as a result there's an almost unbearable amount of pressure you place upon yourself to get it right because you feel like you cannot afford to get it wrong.
Don't answer that if it makes you uncomfortable, hon. It's just that I notice the way you carry yourself here, and the things you contribute to making other people feel better, feel like they can do things... and I wonder if what you're afraid of isn't not being female enough for the rest of the world, but of not being female enough for the standards you set for yourself. And what that could mean for you.
Quote from: learningtolive on September 28, 2013, 08:33:40 PMAs such, I get great pride for assisting others and watching them succeed. It's something I've always been good at and makes me feel happy. Sadly, I've never know how to help myself and find myself fumbling everytime I do try. It's not that I don't have the answers, but I fear them. This is probably why I give so much of myself here. I truly want to help others and in the process help myself. Despite my lack of ability to save myself, I do have something to give others because I realize what the answers are even if I refuse to accept them for myself and fear working on these things.
Just felt like noting that this sounds like me so much.
Quote from: learningtolive on September 28, 2013, 08:33:40 PM
Thank you for you encouragement. All three of you have been very sweet to me throughout my time on this board. I do appreciate it and it means a lot. As for the content of your posts, I agree that much of what you say is probably true. If I were rational, I would embrace those posts as I would probably say the same to another poster myself. Yet, I am not able to embrace logic at the moment and have allowed fear to overtake me. I hope I'll find a way to overcome it and find happiness.
I wish I had something helpful to say... I've had the same problems, and still do to an extent, but it's easy for me to cope with them. I have immense talent in the art of being a daze and forgetting things. So I just went to bed and the following day it was generally gone from my memory. I guess I can't just tell you to become a daze, eh. :/
I'm sorry that you are in such a bad place right now. I wish I could give you a hug or somehow say something that would help or at least get you some ice cream. I know you will come out of this so happy, I know that is hard for you to believe right now, but just hang in there, best you can :icon_hug:
Quote from: Sephirah on September 28, 2013, 08:54:54 PM
Your post does actually shed a lot of light upon why you feel the way you do, hon. More than I'd hoped for, to be honest. Thank you, sincerely. And for the kind words, too. I see some of myself in you.
Rather than tell you what I think (you get enough of that here, lol), I would like to ask you another question. And... it may be a difficult one to consider, much less answer. But also it may... hmm... just shut up and ask it, Seph.
Do you think it's possible that, the anxiety you have about passing and actually having the opportunity to integrate fully as your true self... well... do you think a part of that stems not from the idea that you won't pass as female, or be accepted as such... but that your past coping methods have left an effect on you to where you're scared that not achieving these things will... hmm, how to put it... will feel like you tried everything and it wasn't enough for you? That it has to be all or nothing and you feel like this is a culmination of everything you can possibly do to make your life be the way you want it to be?
I don't know if that makes any sense. I guess what I'm asking is that whether the fear is more of a fear of failure in your own mind than a fear of other people's reactions. And as a result there's an almost unbearable amount of pressure you place upon yourself to get it right because you feel like you cannot afford to get it wrong.
Don't answer that if it makes you uncomfortable, hon. It's just that I notice the way you carry yourself here, and the things you contribute to making other people feel better, feel like they can do things... and I wonder if what you're afraid of isn't not being female enough for the rest of the world, but of not being female enough for the standards you set for yourself. And what that could mean for you.
I'm a big girl Seph, so don't fear hitting the hard questions,lol.
Passing is a HUGE concern of mine and I do care greatly about what others think, but it is also true that I want the perfect transition. I've always had impossible standards that I place upon myself. For example, I always worked hard to be an A student at all time and never an A- student (even though that wasn't always possible). One of the reasons it's taking me forever to apply to grad school is I want the perfect application, despite the fact that there is no such and mine would clearly be less than adequate. So, in a sense, yes this needs to go just right. I'd be upset if I failed my own standards and didn't pass to a T. There is truth behind the fact that I want this to go as perfectly as possible. Not just in the eyes of others, but especially in my own eyes. And I'm scared because I desperately want to transition, but I don't want to fail. I don't want to be unpassable in any way. For this reason I delay further and avoid making the progress I really want because I'm afraid of society and also afraid to confront what I've always delayed. But at the same time, it's killing me to continue this. It's never gone away and all my attempts coping have never pacified my feelings. At the end of the day, I'm a girl and nothing can change that. I would just like to start expressing myself as the real me and not worry so much about imperfections and screwups. But I do. And as a result, I don't live. It's terrible.
On the other hand, I don't expect my transition to go perfect or for it to solve most of my feelings. I'll always have self confidence issues that will need to be worked on in other ways. Being trans is just a part of who I am. Nor would transitioning be a culmination of everything I hope for. Clearly, the self confidence issue, my small social life, my non-existing love life, and my career problems will not be solved in a huff with transitioning. As much as I fantasize about what a wonderful life I could lead as female and finally be happy, I don't expect everything to go the way my dreams do nor do I believe it's the cure. It isn't the answer for these problems even if it can help by boasting my self-confidence and making me feel better about myself. However, I tend to also view transitioning in a very be all or nothing terms and it may not even help that aspect of my confidence problem. I'm not considering transition to be the solution for everything, just simply for some of my problems. So, in short, no I don't think it's a culmination to create my desired life as I need to do so much more than simply transition to make that possible.
Sure, I could try and solve these other issues and not transition as well, but that isn't going to make me happy. For me, this is my path and what I need to do. Honestly, if I could avoid it, I would have done so, but I can't. I'd rather not continue if the rest of my life would be spent as male. Even if it turns out less than what I hoped for in some respects, I truly believe it will get me closer to happiness. I highly doubt I would come out of transition feeling that it wasn't enough for me to solve my problems because it isn't why I'm doing it. My gender identity and body dysphoria is only a part of the equation. Still, it's a big one that has left me empty and depressed for so long, I just want to face it and start feeling happier with myself and who I am. And I can't see myself as anything other than a girl. It pains me not to be true to myself and it's all I want. If I had the chance for a billion dollars or anything in the world, my choice would be to transition in a heartbeat. The thing is I just hate the difficulties of this path and the uncertainties of it. Yes, I want it to go perfect and it saddens me that it isn't possible. Yet, at the same time, I realize that transitioning is something I need to do regardless of my fears and just hate my inability to take action.
All I would say to you, hon, is that sometimes it's the imperfections and screw ups which make one more genuine, not less. As trite as this may sound: you don't have to be perfect, you just have to be you. I don't think it's how close to perfection you can achieve something which makes people warm to you, and take you for who you are. I think it's likely more that you do the best you can, no matter what. Keep going when you don't think you can. To accept there are some variables that you have no control over and just make the most of the ones you do.
It's blatantly obvious from your posts that you know exactly what you need to do. And how to do it. But what's holding you back is a fear which paralyses you. I suspect this fear comes in part from something else, not related to gender. Which is part of the reason I asked these questions. I wonder if working on these fears will allow everything else to fall into place somewhat. To work on the pressure you place on yourself, you know? Where it comes from, and if there are ways you can alleviate some of that to enable you to move forward.
What is it about society which scares you hon? The unpredictability? Or... something else?
Just some thoughts.
No two people can progress in the same way. There are no rules and no boundaries.
Oh as you may see I have stopped using the word 'transitioning' I haven't and I doubt that anyone has 'transitioned' I'm the same woman now as I was before, my physical and to some extent mental processes have changed.
My acceptance of myself has changed totally.
I have not been hit by a magic wand. I as you are doing, work at it, and it isn't a lot of fun sometimes. But the harder we work the luckier we get.
Maybe we are very similar in that I see a younger female version of myself in you. The fights I lost with myself I can see you are fighting now.
How your older sister can help I am unsure.
I was terrified at not passing. I was terrified that people at work would refer to me as that trannie Doc. My colleagues would make jokes behind my back.
I could face the insults to my face, but I wasn't sure if I could take the rumours and snide comments that slowly filtered back to me.
I could take a quick death but not one by a thousand cuts.
I cannot express how terrified I was.
{THIS MAY TRIGGER BEWARE PASS THIS PARAGRAPH
I have suffered my entire life from a traumatic rape. It still haunts me.
I thought I was going to repeat those feelings and emotions by going FT and facing people who would reject me, and most of all insult me was difficult and very triggering}
What then of the outcomes?
There were no trannie jokes.
There were some sick comments, that other people slapped down in a venomous manner, people were told in no uncertain term that I was a 'very courageous person'' to live my life. I'm unsure of that. Courage didn't come into it.
I have lost one colleague. He can't face me. Sadly he is now being ostracized by his colleagues.
I'm now trying to find a way to reach to him.
People in general?
OK I have a problem. I have the Love of my life Rebecca, my wife. She is totally disabled, she lives in care, she is physically totally ruined, mentally normal. She is a brain in a shell.
She knew about me of course before we married, we lived as sisters.
There is no way I can hurt her or let her be hurt. If I progressed would her carers take it out on her?
It was my greatest fear. I was careful and explained. The staff have been great. They love me and her and have no problems except.....
There are agency staff, temps who have never met me. I was in her room getting her into a wheelchair (it takes 3-4 people) . She pipes up. Oh XX this is my husband P. The reply was WTF woman, Gay marriage isn't allowed here. He was fired. I think I pass, and she now introduces me as her partner.
What am I saying?
It ain't as bad as you think. The worse case scenarios don't happen, you can do this and be happy.
And you will be!
Quote from: learningtolive on September 29, 2013, 04:05:46 AM
I'm a big girl Seph, so don't fear hitting the hard questions,lol.
Passing is a HUGE concern of mine and I do care greatly about what others think, but it is also true that I want the perfect transition. I've always had impossible standards that I place upon myself. For example, I always worked hard to be an A student at all time and never an A- student (even though that wasn't always possible). One of the reasons it's taking me forever to apply to grad school is I want the perfect application, despite the fact that there is no such and mine would clearly be less than adequate. So, in a sense, yes this needs to go just right. I'd be upset if I failed my own standards and didn't pass to a T. There is truth behind the fact that I want this to go as perfectly as possible. Not just in the eyes of others, but especially in my own eyes. And I'm scared because I desperately want to transition, but I don't want to fail. I don't want to be unpassable in any way. For this reason I delay further and avoid making the progress I really want because I'm afraid of society and also afraid to confront what I've always delayed. But at the same time, it's killing me to continue this. It's never gone away and all my attempts coping have never pacified my feelings. At the end of the day, I'm a girl and nothing can change that. I would just like to start expressing myself as the real me and not worry so much about imperfections and screwups. But I do. And as a result, I don't live. It's terrible.
Hi LtL,
Following a little disagreement we had a few weeks ago, I needed to stand back for a while and sort out a few of my own feelings, notably why I reacted the way I did to some of the things I was seeing.
With the last few posts on this thread I guess it's time to reappear as, in spite of what I said to you during that disagreement, I genuinely appreciate your remarkable honesty, how much you contribute here and most of all, I really feel for you.
Like Sephirah said in one of her excellent posts yesterday and today, I also certainly see some of who I was in your posts (BTW, maybe that's part of what I was reacting to a few weeks ago...), especially in what you say above.
All through my adolescence and most of my adult life, I was one of the most driven people you could run into. Everything I did, I had to be excellent at: from sport, to studies and work. As I was blessed by destiny with pretty good all around abilities I largely succeeded, always being among the top "performers" at anything I chose to do. There was no halfway house, if I decided to do it, I had to be among the best....and insure that others noticed it! This BTW, didn't make me the most well liked person on the block, respected and maybe even admired yes, but really liked, apart from a couple of very close friends, no.
I continued my life like this until 1996 (I was born in 1957) and in July of that year, I did a week long group psychotherapy that was sponsored by my employer of the time. This very enlightened employer considered that to be a good manager of others, you first needed to understand yourself!
That week was a life changing event for me. There were 6 of us in the room for a week, all from different companies so no one knew us from before and we could leave at the end and never see each other again. There were two therapists with us, one playing bad cop and other playing good cop and between the two of them and feedback from the other participants, little by little, all the defenses came down.
The key learning for me that week was how much I didn't love myself, or even more explicitly, how much I felt I had never been loved by my mother. I managed to say those words on the third day of our week long session, and cried for hours after it, both during the session and when I got back to my hotel at the end of the day. Even writing this, remembering my feelings from that day, tears still come to my eyes. Up until that day, I had never consciously been aware of that feeling in spite of it being at the heart of how I had lived my life up until then.
Among others, this deep rooted feeling of being unloved by one of the most important people in my life was the driver for me to always be among the top performers. I had a relentless need to prove my value and prove I was worthy of my mother's love.
I didn't bring up my gender issues during this session but am pretty convinced that in my own case at least, they are intimately linked with this feeling that I was not loved and not lovable.
I am not saying by any manner or means that you are in the same situation as I was but maybe you will still find some food for thought in this story.
Also, the good news is that after I understood this, I really did start to get far more control over my life. Three years later I had separated from my first wife, getting out of a very abusive relationship which I would never have gotten in to if I had had more self-esteem and self-love.
After that, I also finally started to accept my trans-identity, enough so to be able to openly discuss with my second wife when I met her in April 2005 and since then, in spite of some other major difficulties I have had to deal with, I think I have developed into a far more balanced and relaxed person, probably happier than at any time in my life. In spite of my transition, (or maybe a little because of it since it revealed far more vulnerability than people were used to seeing) I also get on far, far better with other people.
Sephirah hinted at the need to look at other issues beyond your GID to understand where you are now and maybe this contribution will provide you with some more material to help you know where to look.
Wishing you all very best.
Hugs
Donna
Quote from: Cindy on September 29, 2013, 05:03:10 AM
There were some sick comments, that other people slapped down in a venomous manner, people were told in no uncertain term that I was a 'very courageous person'' to live my life. I'm unsure of that. Courage didn't come into it.
I see a lot of people calling trans folk "brave", and a lot of trans folk saying that they're not, that they're terrified. Well, they're right, we're not brave. We are courageous, however. Yes, there is a difference. What is this difference, you ask?
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fm4JtO.jpg&hash=e0a573cee51054504bab7feb6eec62535c8e98a3)
I made this about eight months ago when I was trying to describe why I preferred Luigi (the green one, for those of you not into video games) as a character. His brother Mario runs around fighting monsters without blinking an eye, and Luigi comes with him on these adventures despite being scared ->-bleeped-<-less. Because he doesn't let fear stop him from doing what needs to be done. His fear doesn't define him, and neither should yours. We trans folk may not be brave, but we do have courage, and that is a far more commendable trait.
LTL, your descriptions sound extremely familiar to me. I could have written much of this when I was 23 and started transitioning. Including all the stuff about childhood and being a teenager and especially the lack of this "I am a girl" expression that people claim to be so typical for transsexuals. I think it is not because for some like us even at that age we are pretty much aware of the gender divide, the physical properties it is usually drawn at and that we clearly fall into a category that we do not like but thats how it is. For me it was like that, so I also did not really claim to be a girl but instead developed the concept that I basically wanted to be/become a girl instead.
A lot of the other things you said match my memory as well, so I think you are not at all an odd one out ;) - which of course does not make things any easier though.
But as it often is with this background, there is that point where it just does not work anymore to keep going as a guy, IMO because the stoic male persona is incapable of reaching a certain potential. Its like.... running a male simulation on a female persona - as with all simulators, the full performance is only a fraction of what is possible. And at some stage when the requirements are rising and are not merely to be good at school anymore, it cannot do it. I could not do it - I could keep being good at school or college for a while but not in addition to that do a whole lot otherwise. And it broke down more often, i spent more and more time out of simulation mode in private and then oit became harder and harder to get back to a working simulation - it became even more stoic with time until with 23 it broke and I had to transition. I did not know what the heck I am going to end up with.
What I did was basically what I saw as the better of two choices which both did have its bad points but at least one of the choices looked like it had a lot more light in it and that was transitioning for me. So it was step by step really. I feared that I would be unpassable or ugly and maybe end up dead - but really I treid to stay in the moment. The decision became not to live as a functioning man or to be a beautiful woman but to do HRT or not, to have facial hair or not, to look into a more feminine face in the mirror or one that was less so, eventually to have SRS or to not have it - each decision at each step had its drawbacks and dangers, but for me each single decision was eventually clear and I felt that it was inevitable to make the decision the way I did and the sum of all of these was transition. I think it turned out well and in hindsight many of my older doubts cleared up as I saw how others think and by looking at myself from a distance in time.
A bad self image is not good and I still struggle with that as transition does not really solve that always. It made things better but not great. That is what some people will tell you - transition and SRS will not solve all your problems. And its true. But that does not change the fact trat for most of us transition still has to happen and that it can provide a fertile ground to deal with the other issues as well.
Quote from: Cindy on September 29, 2013, 05:03:10 AM
Oh as you may see I have stopped using the word 'transitioning' I haven't and I doubt that anyone has 'transitioned' I'm the same woman now as I was before, my physical and to some extent mental processes have changed.
I have to caution about that notion. All too often I have heard such or similar statements that somehow imply that little has changed in personality during transition. That one is "the same woman as before" or that one "was always a girl/woman" or that one "only corrected the body"... I think thats not that easy. I think that there definitely is a transition happening. At least in the experience of the one transitioning. Interestingly in hindsight one looks at it differently, maybe more as a discovery which then leads to the conclusion in hindsight that actually one always has been a woman. this is how I see it now too - I am who I am and I have not changed personality at 23, I just discovered myself, shed a stoic male simulation, I was in my mind a girl before and I remember all the dysphoria in a different way now, as a more clearly felt sense of being in the wrong kind of body back then. But that is NOW and I also remember how I felt and thought like in transition time and there was much more uncertainty and doubt and questioning going on. It was much more that "I want to be a girl" feeling than the "knowledge to actually be a girl". So really i think it should be recognized that during that time a lot happens to us and to how we experience life and transition and also to our memories and this process may at that time not be as clear cut as post-transition. And i think it is important that others in transition know that and dont think of post-transitioners as people who always had been solidly certain about everything they did to the degree that they even consider "transition" a word that should not be used.
It pained me a lot if post-ops told me that they "had always been a girl/woman before transition and nothing had changed except the body". I felt that if that is true and I am the same after transition as before in personality and identity, I would not be happy with that and this cast doubt on my decision to do it. But it was simply not true for me - my personality and identity developed and I discovered my buried self in me (which was as with LTL a teenage girl that got stuck not being able to develop). So I did develop and change a lot and became aware of my self and I was a different person post transition as before. Its not mutually exclusive though! As i said looking back I see that I was always the person who I am now, but I also realize that this person was buried under a huge pile of junk that became part of my persona pre transition and that transitioning was for me the phase in my life in which I got rid of a lot of this junk.
I am very intrigued by this notion of male simulation because it fits my experience.
By my geek nature I think that I have been run a Male operating system on top of a female
hardware (the brain).
Of course it is different, and you are right, you won't have the same performance and the
host (the female self) is not visible.
---
The simulation can be pretty perfect, though. Probably my "intelligence" (I don't want to
flatter myself, but I think that I am "gifted" in this regard, probably because I am
a total failure in social contacts) has ruined me because it has allowed a fairly decent simulation
(almost in real time) of a male facade.
But all the simulations, eventually, show their nature. >:-)
But is it possible to "undo" a simulation? That is another great problem, but
I think that uninstalling the male simulation is the hardest part in transition.
Transition is from M to F, but to reach F you have first to delete the M.
Otherwise it ends up like putting a lipstick on a pig, not too much female and not too much
"passable".
I think much of the difference in how one views transition is age (and type). When you transition at 40 years old, of course, you're gonna have had the time to actually live, to actually build yourself as a person. And naturally, you won't shed all of that because you transition. You're gonna stay roughly the same person, and indeed, you'll feel that you did nothing but adjust the shell so that it would suit the nut better (no, no idea why I came up with that nut analogy).
That fits with how most older transitioners seem to experience being transsexual, as a hard to explain inner feeling that they are female, an inner drive to live as a woman. You always "felt that way" inwardly, you feel, so basically you're only bringing your inside to the outside.
It's not so different from what you'll see more in younger transitioners, but there's that little important difference in how transition will often be seen as the only (or at least the most appropriate) way to live comfortably in society given one's personality. Basically, those people are unable to build themselves, to actually live their life, as they are. To those generally younger subjects, it is a much more major thing, I believe, since they're not adjusting their persona from someone who was relatively okay living and socializing for decades, but literally building it from scratch. More than in others, for those individuals, transition can be regarded as their life merely beginning, rather than it entering a new stage or it being a "second life".
Basically, for some (in which I'll include myself), running the "male operating system" and performing the simulation was never an option, and it only ended in error messages and utter failures. Transition to the female operating system isn't because it's more appropriate, it's because it's the only one compatible with the machine.
LTL, as you know, I've written a lot of posts myself about how I'm afraid to be flawed, and how I always had to be the best at everything otherwise I always felt like it wasn't even worth trying. And I had a huge complex about failure.
Over the past few days, I've been discovering something...
When I asked two of my close trans friends about how I could get over this feeling of inadequacy that comes to me whenever people stare at me, they said something very profound: "Why do you care? You're not transitioning for them, you're doing it for you."
Also, I kind of realized that the more I stood off and watched girls from a distance being jealous of them, the more I was always going to feel inadequate, feel like they had some special natural femininity that I didn't. That part of it can only come through practice... years of being around girls, years of identifying as one, and years of subconsciously copying their behavior.
True femininity through hormones takes YEARS. On this site we'd like to believe that it's only a few short months, but really, before one starts getting the same softness as a genetic female, this same "beautiful soft feminine perfection" that I'm sure both you and I are jealous of, it's years. I'm still not there yet, and I've been on hormones for almost 9 months. I was just talking to a friend yesterday who says that it took her FOUR YEARS before she started to truly feel comfortable going out and felt like she was where she needed to be in terms of body shape and skin texture and just feeling like a normal woman.
Transition is not an instantaneous thing. It takes a LONG time. You're not going to start learning until you start trying. And if you don't start trying, you're always just going to be sitting on the sidelines of life wishing that you could have these things that other people do.
So please, allow yourself to be flawed. It's okay. You're supposed to be flawed in the beginning. Comfort in your femaleness, and public confidence, and getting used to it, only comes through YEARS of practice. And yes, I really do mean years. Both of my trans friends my age have told me so. And they certainly are finally now at the point where they have the same comfort about themselves that genetic females have, so I trust them. This site makes it seem like people have perfect transitions in only a few months on hormones, but those are just completely unrealistic expectations. The ability to look like a girl does come quickly. Really accepting that you are one, though, and feeling "complete" and "normal," takes much longer, and it's something that you really can't see just from people's pictures.
I think it is great to strive for perfection, but I just worry that if you need your first attempt to be perfect that it will hold you in place and keep you from taking those first steps, which won't be perfect btw. I hope you can maybe look at your first strides toward being out as yourself as a first draft. It doesn't need to be perfect, it just needs to give you a starting point that you can refine and make better through time.
I am also afraid that if you get too discouraged by how things go on your first days, that that will hurt your progression too. Van Gogh's first attempt at drawing was not to paint Starry Night. It takes time and putting yourself out there and enduring disappointment and accepting and learning from feedback to achieve anything resembling perfection. Actual perfection is a myth that doesn't exist in the real world anyway.
I felt the need to address another chapter to the story, my teenage years. This is a very sensitive one, so I ask people not to pry or question too deeply about this. While it may be a silly thing for some, it's a BIG deal to me. I'm bringing it up because it may address another aspect of Seph's question which I avoided. It probably is a huge part of the equation and addresses something that Seph (your new nickname) has talked about perfection and whether I fear a let down. Please don't press me too far on this because it's a difficult aspect of my past and I'm just as much as a trans woman as everyone despite it.
For most of my life, I hated being trans and didn't understand it. Yes, I came to believe I should have been female around 10ish, but I didn't necessarily see myself as one till I knew what a transsexual was. Because I was a really sheltered child and didn't have access to the internet till I was 18, I had no idea trans people existed. All I knew about was rupaul and the Maury show's feature "is it a guy or a girl" Despite the fact that I always believed I should be a girl and wanted to be one, I never thought that being trans was a real thing (until later of course). In my head, I desperately wanted to be a girl, but wasn't really an authentic one. As a result, I hated myself and hid my feelings, hoping that one day I could learn to be a boy and come to accept my circumstances.
In a way, I had a silly plan that would help me become a boy and get over my trans feelings. See, I had that genital defect (please don't talk about this directly) which has always plagued me and caused me to feel different from other kids. Even though I hated my genitals and always wished to have female parts, I felt like maybe correcting my problems and fixing my defect would make me feel more comfortable being male and would lessen some of the body dysphoria. Like maybe I would fix this and automatically learn to feel like a guy and want to live as one. It's really dumb at the end of the day because identity is much more than our bodies and I desperately wanted to be a girl in every way possible, but I was a dumb kid. So, eventually, I was able to have a corrective surgery and "fix" my genitals (it took forever for reasons that I will elaborate on in another post). After that, I realized that my dysphoria was still there and, in fact, even worse. I still wanted to be a girl and my magical cure didn't solve it. Still, I tried to suppress it as best I can. I made an attempt to be a "normal guy" then a "gay guy" (more suitable for me, lol) which I hated both and it led me to learn about my identity and come to slowly embrace it in steps. I suppose in some ways, I do fear that transitioning will never get rid of these feelings. Much like my past surgery couldn't take away these feelings, perhaps transitioning will only do so much to alleviate my body dysphoria and make me feel authentic. One of the reasons I isolate every conceivable imperfection is that I hope for it to dissipate. Much like the fact that I could never live up to the expectations of male due to physical flaws and socially being different, perhaps I can't fully live up to my expectations as female. At the end of the day, it's what I want, but I don't want to fail. I need to live as female and am tired of running away from my identity, but I really want it to be as perfect as possible. The feelings have never gone away no matter how hard I try. I've always wanted to live like any other girl as well as look like one. And for once, I would like to know how to feel pretty and confident in myself. Like I said before, I still very much that 10 year old girl dressing up looking the mirror wondering when it will all become real, not knowing how to make it so or take away these feelings.
Having said that, there are some other factors at hand as well. I don't think this is the only reason or perhaps the main issue behind my fear. It's just a contributing factor. There is a lot of internal grief, but also external pressure.
Thanks for all the responses, I'll do my best to answer the questions and take the suggestions into account.
I feel that you are being hard on yourself because the mental image of what you percieve yourself to be the ideal women and what you feel society will percieve you, you feel that you want to be perfect in every aspect of it. I think you will get there, it will just take time when you are comfortable with yourself, when the image of yourself overlaps what how others percieve you as. I am no where near your point of transitioning but I see where you coming from. Because I am hard on myself too because I get esteem from what other people tell me all the time.
Quote from: Sephirah on September 29, 2013, 04:32:50 AM
All I would say to you, hon, is that sometimes it's the imperfections and screw ups which make one more genuine, not less. As trite as this may sound: you don't have to be perfect, you just have to be you. I don't think it's how close to perfection you can achieve something which makes people warm to you, and take you for who you are. I think it's likely more that you do the best you can, no matter what. Keep going when you don't think you can. To accept there are some variables that you have no control over and just make the most of the ones you do.
It's blatantly obvious from your posts that you know exactly what you need to do. And how to do it. But what's holding you back is a fear which paralyses you. I suspect this fear comes in part from something else, not related to gender. Which is part of the reason I asked these questions. I wonder if working on these fears will allow everything else to fall into place somewhat. To work on the pressure you place on yourself, you know? Where it comes from, and if there are ways you can alleviate some of that to enable you to move forward.
What is it about society which scares you hon? The unpredictability? Or... something else?
I don't have a full answer to this. My past bullying probably has a lot to do with it. I know what's it's like to be called names and harassed for not fitting in, especially with guys. I've been called so many names in the book that I'm very scared of other people. Truthfully, I've been on the receiving end of physical violence and been harassed for perceived differences. "Oh you don't know how to play football", okay queer let's bully you and threaten violence against you. Having your face thrown in a urinal because you're different. That kind of bs. But I also remember things like walking to my car after a particularly hard day at work and seeing the fog on my mirror with the word "->-bleeped-<-" written in big letters. I got to cry on my way home. Also, I know what it's like to be brought in the back office of a professional environment someone and asked to close the door and explain who the hottest guy in the office. But it's okay because that same individual gave me a dead flower one day since I was the "prettiest girl in the office". Usually, whenever people detect that I'm different, it doesn't turn out well. So, I hide behind a stoic persona hoping that I won't be bullied. Then again, I don't always do a good job. I'm scared and don't want to be bullied or rejected again. I want to fit in and just be normal and fear transitioning will be socially challenging.
Wow, I feel so sorry about the awful stuff you've been through. I guess I really was lucky, somehow, for how little I was bullied. Like, a tiny bit in primary school, and then exactly four short events in secondary school. I wonder if I was too much of a daze, or something, if I just didn't notice some of the bullying. Or maybe you just grew up among too many awful people. I mean, resorting to physical violence because, what, you don't like football is pretty extreme.
I think I was only subject to physical violence once, in primary school, when another child tried to decapitate me with half an old cardboard "for sale" sign (with obviously only minor wounds), to which I kindly cooperated because he asked me to. (I even had him stop for a bit so I could move aside my muffler that was making it ineffective, if you wanna have a laugh at how jello-soft a kid can be, haha.)
So, yeah, it's not a very useful post to you, but really, sorry that you had to deal with such awful people.
Quote from: Donna E on September 29, 2013, 06:38:31 AM
Hi LtL,
Following a little disagreement we had a few weeks ago, I needed to stand back for a while and sort out a few of my own feelings, notably why I reacted the way I did to some of the things I was seeing.
With the last few posts on this thread I guess it's time to reappear as, in spite of what I said to you during that disagreement, I genuinely appreciate your remarkable honesty, how much you contribute here and most of all, I really feel for you.
Like Sephirah said in one of her excellent posts yesterday and today, I also certainly see some of who I was in your posts (BTW, maybe that's part of what I was reacting to a few weeks ago...), especially in what you say above.
All through my adolescence and most of my adult life, I was one of the most driven people you could run into. Everything I did, I had to be excellent at: from sport, to studies and work. As I was blessed by destiny with pretty good all around abilities I largely succeeded, always being among the top "performers" at anything I chose to do. There was no halfway house, if I decided to do it, I had to be among the best....and insure that others noticed it! This BTW, didn't make me the most well liked person on the block, respected and maybe even admired yes, but really liked, apart from a couple of very close friends, no.
I continued my life like this until 1996 (I was born in 1957) and in July of that year, I did a week long group psychotherapy that was sponsored by my employer of the time. This very enlightened employer considered that to be a good manager of others, you first needed to understand yourself!
That week was a life changing event for me. There were 6 of us in the room for a week, all from different companies so no one knew us from before and we could leave at the end and never see each other again. There were two therapists with us, one playing bad cop and other playing good cop and between the two of them and feedback from the other participants, little by little, all the defenses came down.
The key learning for me that week was how much I didn't love myself, or even more explicitly, how much I felt I had never been loved by my mother. I managed to say those words on the third day of our week long session, and cried for hours after it, both during the session and when I got back to my hotel at the end of the day. Even writing this, remembering my feelings from that day, tears still come to my eyes. Up until that day, I had never consciously been aware of that feeling in spite of it being at the heart of how I had lived my life up until then.
Among others, this deep rooted feeling of being unloved by one of the most important people in my life was the driver for me to always be among the top performers. I had a relentless need to prove my value and prove I was worthy of my mother's love.
I didn't bring up my gender issues during this session but am pretty convinced that in my own case at least, they are intimately linked with this feeling that I was not loved and not lovable.
I am not saying by any manner or means that you are in the same situation as I was but maybe you will still find some food for thought in this story.
Also, the good news is that after I understood this, I really did start to get far more control over my life. Three years later I had separated from my first wife, getting out of a very abusive relationship which I would never have gotten in to if I had had more self-esteem and self-love.
After that, I also finally started to accept my trans-identity, enough so to be able to openly discuss with my second wife when I met her in April 2005 and since then, in spite of some other major difficulties I have had to deal with, I think I have developed into a far more balanced and relaxed person, probably happier than at any time in my life. In spite of my transition, (or maybe a little because of it since it revealed far more vulnerability than people were used to seeing) I also get on far, far better with other people.
Sephirah hinted at the need to look at other issues beyond your GID to understand where you are now and maybe this contribution will provide you with some more material to help you know where to look.
Wishing you all very best.
Hugs
Donna
Donna,
Everything is water under the bridge. I take responsibility in my part as well and have since apologized. There is no reason for friends to carry on with a petty grudge. At least, I truly hope that will be the case.
As for your point, sure there are things holding me back, but what are they. My past bullying, my body dysphoria.... or my family? Since you are very aware of how special my mother is to me, you must realize this is a very difficult topic. Like I said before, I'd take a bullet for my mom and she is my best friend in the whole world. In my opinion she and my family are the best. However, even the best, can have damaging effects whether they realize it or not.
Growing up in a very Italian family, shouting and fighting wasn't too uncommon in my house. I can remember going to bed every night with the sounds of screaming because of some family dispute. In many ways, the domineering nature of some of my family members had an impact on me. As a kid, my TV was not to go past volume 2 and I would be checked up very frequently by a family member to ensure that I didn't dare raise it to the incredibly loud volume 3,lol. The same was true for radio or anything else. Even things like internet was really controlled and limited for me, until I got my first computer at age 18. I was expected to follow the rules and not disobey. In some ways, most kids experience this, so I don't take anything negative from it. Besides, I have much more freedom nowadays. And it wasn't always bad. For example, I always could experiement with music and listen to whatever I wanted, as long as I listened on my CD player.
As for my mother, she is an amazing woman. Still, there are times when she may have unintentionally hurt me. My mom always wanted the best for me and saw me as her special "little boy". Because she wanted me to have a good life, she would force me to do things that I hated like play on a baseball league and practice all the time. I hated it and told her this, but that's what boys were supposed to do. Hell, I even was forced to go to baseball camp which I was able to get out of due to a fractured arm (which I played with for a painful 3 days before I was excused). Then again, she had no problem with my sister and I playing dressing up and pretending to be female celebrities when I was young. So, she was a great mom and allowed my gender bending. Though, things did change a bit as I got older, and I became more aware of the expected gender roles which is why I began to hide.
One thing that does really bother me is that she ignored my body dysphoria for most of my life. As I said in the previous post, my mom was obviously aware of my genital defect, but she didn't like to discuss it at all. Whenever I would ask my mom to see a doctor about the issue, she would just ignore it. Like me, my mother was very good at avoiding the difficult stuff. Why bring up something not worth discussing? Even though she would always observe that I looked uncomfortable in my own skin and would tell me that she noticed that, she never wanted to address something that I wanted addressed. While I never discussed my trans feelings with her until recently (out of fear and self loathing), I did constantly explain my intense dislike of my body and especially that area. It took forever for her to listen and address this and call the proper professionals. That's something that does hurt till this day.
If there is one thing that I take umbrage with against my family, it's the denial. The whole boys will be boys; except when they aren't. There were so many signs around them, yet all I hear is were no signs and that this makes no sense. It makes no sense to me and it both angers and hurts me at the same time. It' especially annoying because I used to always hear things about what a different "boy" I was and all the suspicions that I was gay. But when I came out as trans, "oh, never even suspected anything".
Does my family play a role? I don't know. Honestly, I don't. But these are some of the frustrating things that I can think of off the top of my head that perhaps play a role. But I don't know.
I feel quite terrible that you have been bullied this way. I think learningtolive, its a combination of everything in your life thats all lines up. I have the swiss cheese analong. When all the holes line up in place, everthing falls through. Getting validation from your mother might be part of the problem. Whenever you do something that you idenif with, you get reprimended and feel guilty about yourself doing it.
Quote from: Septet on September 29, 2013, 08:29:54 AM
I see a lot of people calling trans folk "brave", and a lot of trans folk saying that they're not, that they're terrified. Well, they're right, we're not brave. We are courageous, however. Yes, there is a difference. What is this difference, you ask?
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fm4JtO.jpg&hash=e0a573cee51054504bab7feb6eec62535c8e98a3)
I made this about eight months ago when I was trying to describe why I preferred Luigi (the green one, for those of you not into video games) as a character. His brother Mario runs around fighting monsters without blinking an eye, and Luigi comes with him on these adventures despite being scared ->-bleeped-<-less. Because he doesn't let fear stop him from doing what needs to be done. His fear doesn't define him, and neither should yours. We trans folk may not be brave, but we do have courage, and that is a far more commendable trait.
I too have always preferred Luigi. I'm guessing it has to do with his green outfit.
Quote from: anjaq on September 29, 2013, 12:13:32 PM
LTL, your descriptions sound extremely familiar to me. I could have written much of this when I was 23 and started transitioning. Including all the stuff about childhood and being a teenager and especially the lack of this "I am a girl" expression that people claim to be so typical for transsexuals. I think it is not because for some like us even at that age we are pretty much aware of the gender divide, the physical properties it is usually drawn at and that we clearly fall into a category that we do not like but thats how it is. For me it was like that, so I also did not really claim to be a girl but instead developed the concept that I basically wanted to be/become a girl instead.
A lot of the other things you said match my memory as well, so I think you are not at all an odd one out ;) - which of course does not make things any easier though.
But as it often is with this background, there is that point where it just does not work anymore to keep going as a guy, IMO because the stoic male persona is incapable of reaching a certain potential. Its like.... running a male simulation on a female persona - as with all simulators, the full performance is only a fraction of what is possible. And at some stage when the requirements are rising and are not merely to be good at school anymore, it cannot do it. I could not do it - I could keep being good at school or college for a while but not in addition to that do a whole lot otherwise. And it broke down more often, i spent more and more time out of simulation mode in private and then oit became harder and harder to get back to a working simulation - it became even more stoic with time until with 23 it broke and I had to transition. I did not know what the heck I am going to end up with.
What I did was basically what I saw as the better of two choices which both did have its bad points but at least one of the choices looked like it had a lot more light in it and that was transitioning for me. So it was step by step really. I feared that I would be unpassable or ugly and maybe end up dead - but really I treid to stay in the moment. The decision became not to live as a functioning man or to be a beautiful woman but to do HRT or not, to have facial hair or not, to look into a more feminine face in the mirror or one that was less so, eventually to have SRS or to not have it - each decision at each step had its drawbacks and dangers, but for me each single decision was eventually clear and I felt that it was inevitable to make the decision the way I did and the sum of all of these was transition. I think it turned out well and in hindsight many of my older doubts cleared up as I saw how others think and by looking at myself from a distance in time.
A bad self image is not good and I still struggle with that as transition does not really solve that always. It made things better but not great. That is what some people will tell you - transition and SRS will not solve all your problems. And its true. But that does not change the fact trat for most of us transition still has to happen and that it can provide a fertile ground to deal with the other issues as well.
I have to caution about that notion. All too often I have heard such or similar statements that somehow imply that little has changed in personality during transition. That one is "the same woman as before" or that one "was always a girl/woman" or that one "only corrected the body"... I think thats not that easy. I think that there definitely is a transition happening. At least in the experience of the one transitioning. Interestingly in hindsight one looks at it differently, maybe more as a discovery which then leads to the conclusion in hindsight that actually one always has been a woman. this is how I see it now too - I am who I am and I have not changed personality at 23, I just discovered myself, shed a stoic male simulation, I was in my mind a girl before and I remember all the dysphoria in a different way now, as a more clearly felt sense of being in the wrong kind of body back then. But that is NOW and I also remember how I felt and thought like in transition time and there was much more uncertainty and doubt and questioning going on. It was much more that "I want to be a girl" feeling than the "knowledge to actually be a girl". So really i think it should be recognized that during that time a lot happens to us and to how we experience life and transition and also to our memories and this process may at that time not be as clear cut as post-transition. And i think it is important that others in transition know that and dont think of post-transitioners as people who always had been solidly certain about everything they did to the degree that they even consider "transition" a word that should not be used.
It pained me a lot if post-ops told me that they "had always been a girl/woman before transition and nothing had changed except the body". I felt that if that is true and I am the same after transition as before in personality and identity, I would not be happy with that and this cast doubt on my decision to do it. But it was simply not true for me - my personality and identity developed and I discovered my buried self in me (which was as with LTL a teenage girl that got stuck not being able to develop). So I did develop and change a lot and became aware of my self and I was a different person post transition as before. Its not mutually exclusive though! As i said looking back I see that I was always the person who I am now, but I also realize that this person was buried under a huge pile of junk that became part of my persona pre transition and that transitioning was for me the phase in my life in which I got rid of a lot of this junk.
Thanks Anjaq. The stoic male persona is much more of a put on because I really don't like being myself in public. As you can see, when people detect me, it has had negative consequences. I'm afraid to be myself and don't know how to do so without it having a negative response. So I put on this shield and hope to blend in even though I hate how I do blend in. The only people I ever felt comfortable to let my guard down around was my family and even that was only to an extent. Still, I'm only so good at hiding and people who get to know me realize I'm not quite that stoic male. It's hard to explain. I act differently around different people. Those who I feel I can trust get the real me, while others see the fearful put on that I hate and makes me feel sad. I suppose I just have to learn to feel comfortable with me and not care about what others think of me. Though, that is easier said then done. I can't wait for me to feel comfortable being female and acting girly without fear.
Quote from: tmarina on September 29, 2013, 12:35:46 PM
I am very intrigued by this notion of male simulation because it fits my experience.
By my geek nature I think that I have been run a Male operating system on top of a female
hardware (the brain).
Of course it is different, and you are right, you won't have the same performance and the
host (the female self) is not visible.
---
The simulation can be pretty perfect, though. Probably my "intelligence" (I don't want to
flatter myself, but I think that I am "gifted" in this regard, probably because I am
a total failure in social contacts) has ruined me because it has allowed a fairly decent simulation
(almost in real time) of a male facade.
But all the simulations, eventually, show their nature. >:-)
But is it possible to "undo" a simulation? That is another great problem, but
I think that uninstalling the male simulation is the hardest part in transition.
Transition is from M to F, but to reach F you have first to delete the M.
Otherwise it ends up like putting a lipstick on a pig, not too much female and not too much
"passable".
Lol. I think you have a good point. Is there an easy way to delete the M. I'll make sure to program my brain.
Quote from: Carrie Liz on September 29, 2013, 12:56:36 PM
LTL, as you know, I've written a lot of posts myself about how I'm afraid to be flawed, and how I always had to be the best at everything otherwise I always felt like it wasn't even worth trying. And I had a huge complex about failure.
Over the past few days, I've been discovering something...
When I asked two of my close trans friends about how I could get over this feeling of inadequacy that comes to me whenever people stare at me, they said something very profound: "Why do you care? You're not transitioning for them, you're doing it for you."
Also, I kind of realized that the more I stood off and watched girls from a distance being jealous of them, the more I was always going to feel inadequate, feel like they had some special natural femininity that I didn't. That part of it can only come through practice... years of being around girls, years of identifying as one, and years of subconsciously copying their behavior.
True femininity through hormones takes YEARS. On this site we'd like to believe that it's only a few short months, but really, before one starts getting the same softness as a genetic female, this same "beautiful soft feminine perfection" that I'm sure both you and I are jealous of, it's years. I'm still not there yet, and I've been on hormones for almost 9 months. I was just talking to a friend yesterday who says that it took her FOUR YEARS before she started to truly feel comfortable going out and felt like she was where she needed to be in terms of body shape and skin texture and just feeling like a normal woman.
Transition is not an instantaneous thing. It takes a LONG time. You're not going to start learning until you start trying. And if you don't start trying, you're always just going to be sitting on the sidelines of life wishing that you could have these things that other people do.
So please, allow yourself to be flawed. It's okay. You're supposed to be flawed in the beginning. Comfort in your femaleness, and public confidence, and getting used to it, only comes through YEARS of practice. And yes, I really do mean years. Both of my trans friends my age have told me so. And they certainly are finally now at the point where they have the same comfort about themselves that genetic females have, so I trust them. This site makes it seem like people have perfect transitions in only a few months on hormones, but those are just completely unrealistic expectations. The ability to look like a girl does come quickly. Really accepting that you are one, though, and feeling "complete" and "normal," takes much longer, and it's something that you really can't see just from people's pictures.
You're certainly right. I just wish that I could except that it takes time, work and putting yourself out there. All of these things scare me.
Quote from: Jen on September 29, 2013, 01:41:06 PM
I think it is great to strive for perfection, but I just worry that if you need your first attempt to be perfect that it will hold you in place and keep you from taking those first steps, which won't be perfect btw. I hope you can maybe look at your first strides toward being out as yourself as a first draft. It doesn't need to be perfect, it just needs to give you a starting point that you can refine and make better through time.
I am also afraid that if you get too discouraged by how things go on your first days, that that will hurt your progression too. Van Gogh's first attempt at drawing was not to paint Starry Night. It takes time and putting yourself out there and enduring disappointment and accepting and learning from feedback to achieve anything resembling perfection. Actual perfection is a myth that doesn't exist in the real world anyway.
Great advice Jen. You have a point. This is what I'm trying to accept and overcome.
Quote from: izzy on September 29, 2013, 01:50:48 PM
I feel that you are being hard on yourself because the mental image of what you percieve yourself to be the ideal women and what you feel society will percieve you, you feel that you want to be perfect in every aspect of it. I think you will get there, it will just take time when you are comfortable with yourself, when the image of yourself overlaps what how others percieve you as. I am no where near your point of transitioning but I see where you coming from. Because I am hard on myself too because I get esteem from what other people tell me all the time.
Yes, the opinions of others mean everything sometimes. It's weird, but sometimes I can't help what others feel or say more than I care about my own feelings. As a result, I hide myself away and try to meet expectations that I was never able to meet and be someone I'm not. that's why I'm so used to repressing myself.
Quote from: A on September 29, 2013, 02:43:58 PM
Wow, I feel so sorry about the awful stuff you've been through. I guess I really was lucky, somehow, for how little I was bullied. Like, a tiny bit in primary school, and then exactly four short events in secondary school. I wonder if I was too much of a daze, or something, if I just didn't notice some of the bullying. Or maybe you just grew up among too many awful people. I mean, resorting to physical violence because, what, you don't like football is pretty extreme.
I think I was only subject to physical violence once, in primary school, when another child tried to decapitate me with half an old cardboard "for sale" sign (with obviously only minor wounds), to which I kindly cooperated because he asked me to. (I even had him stop for a bit so I could move aside my muffler that was making it ineffective, if you wanna have a laugh at how jello-soft a kid can be, haha.)
So, yeah, it's not a very useful post to you, but really, sorry that you had to deal with such awful people.
It's not so bad. Believe me, many have had it worse than I. I almost feel stupid for complaining about my bullying because it isn't the be all and end all of bullying. Nor was every aspect of my past was bad. I have some great accomplishments of which I'm proud of. It's just hard for me to express myself without fear of others.
Quote from: izzy on September 29, 2013, 03:05:33 PM
I feel quite terrible that you have been bullied this way. I think learningtolive, its a combination of everything in your life thats all lines up. I have the swiss cheese analong. When all the holes line up in place, everthing falls through. Getting validation from your mother might be part of the problem. Whenever you do something that you idenif with, you get reprimended and feel guilty about yourself doing it.
Well, my mother has been getting a little better. We have stopped fighting and have come to a "don't ask don't tell strategy". Yeah, she won't change the pronouns whenever I ask and she tells me she doesn't want to here about anything related to my gender problems when I try to open up to her, but it is seriously better. I'm considering doing family therapy with her as a way to work things out. Maybe that will help.
Quote from: learningtolive on September 29, 2013, 02:51:23 PM
Donna,
Everything is water under the bridge. I take responsibility in my part as well and have since apologized. There is no reason for friends to carry on with a petty grudge. At least, I truly hope that will be the case.
As for your point, sure there are things holding me back, but what are they. My past bullying, my body dysphoria.... or my family? Since you are very aware of how special my mother is to me, you must realize this is a very difficult topic. Like I said before, I'd take a bullet for my mom and she is my best friend in the whole world. In my opinion she and my family are the best. However, even the best, can have damaging effects whether they realize it or not.
Growing up in a very Italian family, shouting and fighting wasn't too uncommon in my house. I can remember going to bed every night with the sounds of screaming because of some family dispute. In many ways, the domineering nature of some of my family members had an impact on me. As a kid, my TV was not to go past volume 2 and I would be checked up very frequently by a family member to ensure that I didn't dare raise it to the incredibly loud volume 3,lol. The same was true for radio or anything else. Even things like internet was really controlled and limited for me, until I got my first computer at age 18. I was expected to follow the rules and not disobey. In some ways, most kids experience this, so I don't take anything negative from it. Besides, I have much more freedom nowadays. And it wasn't always bad. For example, I always could experiement with music and listen to whatever I wanted, as long as I listened on my CD player.
As for my mother, she is an amazing woman. Still, there are times when she may have unintentionally hurt me. My mom always wanted the best for me and saw me as her special "little boy". Because she wanted me to have a good life, she would force me to do things that I hated like play on a baseball league and practice all the time. I hated it and told her this, but that's what boys were supposed to do. Hell, I even was forced to go to baseball camp which I was able to get out of due to a fractured arm (which I played with for a painful 3 days before I was excused). Then again, she had no problem with my sister and I playing dressing up and pretending to be female celebrities when I was young. So, she was a great mom and allowed my gender bending. Though, things did change a bit as I got older, and I became more aware of the expected gender roles which is why I began to hide.
One thing that does really bother me is that she ignored my body dysphoria for most of my life. As I said in the previous post, my mom was obviously aware of my genital defect, but she didn't like to discuss it at all. Whenever I would ask my mom to see a doctor about the issue, she would just ignore it. Like me, my mother was very good at avoiding the difficult stuff. Why bring up something not worth discussing? Even though she would always observe that I looked uncomfortable in my own skin and would tell me that she noticed that, she never wanted to address something that I wanted addressed. While I never discussed my trans feelings with her until recently (out of fear and self loathing), I did constantly explain my intense dislike of my body and especially that area. It took forever for her to listen and address this and call the proper professionals. That's something that does hurt till this day.
If there is one thing that I take umbrage with against my family, it's the denial. The whole boys will be boys; except when they aren't. There were so many signs around them, yet all I hear is were no signs and that this makes no sense. It makes no sense to me and it both angers and hurts me at the same time. It' especially annoying because I used to always hear things about what a different "boy" I was and all the suspicions that I was gay. But when I came out as trans, "oh, never even suspected anything".
Does my family play a role? I don't know. Honestly, I don't. But these are some of the frustrating things that I can think of off the top of my head that perhaps play a role. But I don't know.
LtL,
I preferred to answer this by PM.
Take care!
Donna
You're not alone w/ the bullying!! I was bullied extensively throughout grade school and high school. I believe my very poor personal memory (that's only starting to come back) is because I had to repress so much of that. I also account for not having come fully out of the closet in High School (a fairly open and accepting group was available for that) because I had to hide my gender problems or certainly get bullied for it. I learned early on that being transgender or even just having feminine qualities (which is certainly part of why I was originally bullied) was very dangerous.
I wish I could remember more... especially early on when my best friends were girls and got bullied for that and for not liking boy activities... I'm sure it was at that point that I changed (as much as I could) from a young transgender girl into a man... but I have no idea how deep it went.
Quote from: tmarina on September 29, 2013, 12:35:46 PM
I am very intrigued by this notion of male simulation because it fits my experience.
By my geek nature I think that I have been run a Male operating system on top of a female
hardware (the brain).
Of course it is different, and you are right, you won't have the same performance and the
host (the female self) is not visible.
---
The simulation can be pretty perfect, though. Probably my "intelligence" (I don't want to
flatter myself, but I think that I am "gifted" in this regard, probably because I am
a total failure in social contacts) has ruined me because it has allowed a fairly decent simulation
(almost in real time) of a male facade.
But all the simulations, eventually, show their nature. >:-)
But is it possible to "undo" a simulation? That is another great problem, but
I think that uninstalling the male simulation is the hardest part in transition.
Transition is from M to F, but to reach F you have first to delete the M.
Agreed, and I'll be starting my Apple injections and Microsoft suppressors shortly. My ports will also need reconfiguring... ;)
Quote from: Violet Bloom on September 29, 2013, 09:40:32 PM
Agreed, and I'll be starting my Apple injections and Microsoft suppressors shortly. My ports will also need reconfiguring... ;)
Oh crap... I forgot a girl can't have an Android phone. What am I going to do?!
Quote from: tmarina on September 29, 2013, 12:35:46 PM
By my geek nature I think that I have been run a Male operating system on top of a female hardware (the brain).
[...]
But is it possible to "undo" a simulation? That is another great problem, but
I think that uninstalling the male simulation is the hardest part in transition.
Transition is from M to F, but to reach F you have first to delete the M.
Yes exactly - I dont want to overstretch that analogy but I think it is a useful one. Stopping the simulation seems to be possible but not without creating some trouble, as the system underlying this has to fill in with new processes to fulfil the same functions. Those may cost less effort as they can then be run on the proper hardware, but they need to be loaded. So the M has to be deleted, the simulation stopped and then there is a certain gap in which some functions do not work properly at all until the functions are restored. Now to stretch this a bit further I would say that the operating system is actually F and matches the hardware which is F (otherwise it would not work at all), but there is that M simulation running on that operating system which prodeces quite a high load. If the simulation is ended, those ressources are freed and the F operating system can load the processes that normally would have been loaded if there was no simulation. That takes not much time but the main problem with that is that all the settings are on default, so they have to run a setup first.
Hehe - this is very technical. So in more human terms, this would be that the male simulation can and has to be stopped and then the female personality can use that capacity to take over but while it has all the capabilities already, it has to learn how to use them. Which is why sometimes we feel like 12 year olds when transitioning ;)
The part form A on the age difference is interesting as well. I guess the analogy in that case would be that some of the results of the simulation are already put into the operating system processes - so some things learned while simulating M are not gendered and thus work as well outside the simulation. But while I agree that for the younger ones like me it may be more like starting from scratch (it was for me), for the older ones there is at least some part that dies the same. I hear this a lot that people describe their personality as being reborn in a way and expressing teenage feelings and behaviours and identity which is what I would have described as the incompletely configured F operating system taking over the functions of the stopped M simulation?
I also think that for some, running the simulation is easier than for others. Which may be why some at 5 simply state they ARE girls, some transition at a young age, others manage to keep it going until later.
I also agree with the statement that it takes a long time to really get into the flow in terms of body and mind. Looking back I think I developed still a lot years after I started transitioning especially in social terms and I still have a lot to learn even now. The comparison to transitioning being essentially puberty #2 is quite good. And any girl at age 12 has so much to learn and so much to develop in her body until she is a grown up woman. Why would it take us only a few months, just because most of our body is already grown up ;)
I think the best was to stop the simulation and to delete the M stoic thing is to make the decision to do so. And make sure you hit that "OK" button on the "too large for the trashcan, do you really want to delete this permanently" button, otherwise it wont work :P - its a leap of faith, you have to trust that once this is gone and deleted, there are plenty of parts of you that will take over and that are even better at doing this and you have to trust that they will fit you in transition. All those behaviours that as a male would have looked wrong and thus had to be simulated are now valid. But for them to be valid, one has to transition and be "out", so that people will not again make you feel awkward at using them. A lot of it really comes down to trusting your female personality to take over and to open up your presentation to the outside so that you can allow yourself to express that personality. And having that trust you can then "delete" the stoic persona permanently and be yourself. It has to be permanent delete though, otherwise the female personality that is underneath it cannot grow to its potential - you have to basically make sure that you cannot fall back into the simulation.
This all probably sounds totally confusing ;) - but maybe you get it, LTL
Quote from: anjaq on September 30, 2013, 07:39:11 AM
This all probably sounds totally confusing ;) - but maybe you get it, LTL
I thought it was awesome :D
I did my thesis on M&S, though... ;)
And it's quite true, for many of us anyway. We were running a simulation of being our assigned gender for so long... and eventually there was a variable unaccounted for. The only difference is the fidelity of the simulator. In our case... reality beat out whatever program we were running in our head... and the simulation came to a grinding halt.
I consider myself 100% female now... I just don't much like it, yet... but yes - there's a lot to learn. That doesn't mean I'm going to make decisions a 5 year old would make (I do love Disney Jr... but it's not going on my bed spread)... but the way we start to think is a big mix of tween and adult.
Thank you for expanding my idea, there is a lot food for thought in that analogy.
Deleting the male means to have faith that the male was never there. I think that
many TS go into suicidal thoughts because they think that the male is REAL so they
think that the only way to escape the simulation is to KILL the shell.
But this is not real. To escape the matrix of the male simulation you have simply to
go out, full time. NOW. Not passing, not ready are false problems.
Just choose a D-day and then never go back. No remorse, no repent (as in the Metallica song).
Passing will come AFTER, you are not going to wake up as a girl.
You have to JUMP that cliff, delete the male which was never real and exit the male matrix.
Young TS are in a sense luckier because the male simulation has run for less time and
has done less permanent damage, but they are also prone to THINK that all this stuff
is real, because they are young and maybe there is the doubt that, with time, with
the proper "service packs" the male O.S. will run better.
But the only solution (for me) is a HARD transition from 0 to 100% and no turning back.
Quote from: tmarina on September 30, 2013, 08:03:26 AM
Thank you for expanding my idea, there is a lot food for thought in that analogy.
Deleting the male means to have faith that the male was never there. I think that
many TS go into suicidal thoughts because they think that the male is REAL so they
think that the only way to escape the simulation is to KILL the shell.
But this is not real. To escape the matrix of the male simulation you have simply to
go out, full time. NOW. Not passing, not ready are false problems.
Just choose a D-day and then never go back. No remorse, no repent (as in the Metallica song).
Passing will come AFTER, you are not going to wake up as a girl.
You have to JUMP that cliff, delete the male which was never real and exit the male matrix.
Young TS are in a sense luckier because the male simulation has run for less time and
has done less permanent damage, but they are also prone to THINK that all this stuff
is real, because they are young and maybe there is the doubt that, with time, with
the proper "service packs" the male O.S. will run better.
But the only solution (for me) is a HARD transition from 0 to 100% and no turning back.
What? You don't initialize your variables first? What about safe clean-up of the previous running sim?
I'd think of it more as I'm cleaning up the simulator in an attempt to get to reality. I'm not a simulation anymore. I'm not attempting to emulate something I'm not... except as a transitional point (i.e. work, slow changes for family, etc). Take it slow and ensure that no spurious processes remain from the old sim.
I agree that it's psychologically easier for us later in life... that's a trade off. If I'd switched in puberty it would have been difficult in my head (no 20+ years experience of dealing with adult life at that point). At the same time... it would be easier socially (than as an adult of that time) and physiologically (still in puberty).
IMO, puberty's the transgender problem. To go back to the analogy - we're running a Female Core Processor (FCP)- maybe we don't realize it at the time, but we are... then we start fueling the FCP with high Male Testosterone Energy (MTE)... which is only compatible with a MCP. After puberty, the MTE is still there, but goes down to more tolerable levels... and our FCP adapts to use that energy. It's not optimal... and it generates a lot of psychological pollutants, but it works for a while. Some people have a very strong FCP, that rejects the MTE completely - they come out earlier. Others of us have a FCP that isn't so picky about its energy source.
In any case... once we switch over to the Female Estrogen Energy (FEE) source the FCP runs more smoothly... like a purring engine (or kitty, or whatever ;)).
I like the analogy... it's oddly easier for me to understand than all this biology and psychology talk. Yes, I'm an engineer...
Yes, it makes sense.
I may think also the contrary...
the MORE you are FEMININE the LATER you transition.
But this is not a judgment, just another opinion... you are saying that
QuoteSome people have a very strong FCP, that rejects the MTE completely - they come out earlier. Others of us have a FCP that isn't so picky about its energy source.
but I also may say that a strong FCP is WEAK, because one of the main characteristics
of female energy is acceptance. So it accepts the foreign energy, it is submitted
Haha, kabit, I think you changed analogy here to that of an engine and fuel. Works well too :)
I also like that parts from MATRIX, tmarina. The "red pill" thing (thinking of it the first E tablets I got were actually reddish :P ). I can imagine that this partakes in the suicides - thinking the male simulation is real and thinking of how shallow and hollow this is and that this is not really a person worth living. Stepping over that line and not looking back (for a while) is IMO really a key issue. It does not have to be connected to going fulltime, but it means to leave situations that demand the male simulator behind. I guess for some it works to shut down the simulator more gracefully - deactivate parts, free the memory, fill in with the nonsimulated code. But thats quite tedious and hard to do and I think one can make a lot of mistakes, forget parts of it or tend to keep parts as a backup (which still take up capacity). Maybe some code from the simulator gets into the new code. I am not sure. For me personally I think the way to shut it down and leave it to the OS to clean out the memory and overwrite the abandoned code fragments was the way to go. And no backups. No way back. Who would want to go back to the simulation anyways. Of course if I would have found that after stopping the simulator what comes up is not a female OS really, I might have detransitioned - that option still is open when one drops the simulator, so it is not a commitment to transition. But if the OS is female, it is the first step to transition on the outside as well. Mind you all of this is going on inside of us, the outside at this stage is just the place we choose to be, preferrably one that does not require parts that are to be deleted. In that sense being "out" or even fulltime at that stage may be a good idea.
Yeah... though I was thinking more in terms of computer processors and the like... though with fuel and energy - the engine analogy works well too.
I agree w/ both of you. I have to take it slow... but in terms of what's inside I feel fully transitioned. I'd be happy to be fully out (though probably not happy with it once I was - as I am). I swear Facebook is going to make people guess. Still... it's a long process and I don't even get that red pill for >6 months. I'm shooting for May... get the less physical changes done over the summer and head into fall & winter for some of the more drastic stuff... which means it won't work out that way for me (I'll either change fast or we'll have a record warm fall / winter).
Hopefully this diversion was useful to LTL... I always feel bad about derailing (or helping derail) a thread - and I can't help but do it anyway! Sorry!!
Quote from: tmarina on September 30, 2013, 08:03:26 AM
Thank you for expanding my idea, there is a lot food for thought in that analogy.
Deleting the male means to have faith that the male was never there. I think that
many TS go into suicidal thoughts because they think that the male is REAL so they
think that the only way to escape the simulation is to KILL the shell.
But this is not real. To escape the matrix of the male simulation you have simply to
go out, full time. NOW. Not passing, not ready are false problems.
Just choose a D-day and then never go back. No remorse, no repent (as in the Metallica song).
Passing will come AFTER, you are not going to wake up as a girl.
You have to JUMP that cliff, delete the male which was never real and exit the male matrix.
Young TS are in a sense luckier because the male simulation has run for less time and
has done less permanent damage, but they are also prone to THINK that all this stuff
is real, because they are young and maybe there is the doubt that, with time, with
the proper "service packs" the male O.S. will run better.
But the only solution (for me) is a HARD transition from 0 to 100% and no turning back.
I think 'deleting the male' is a big mistake. Natural born women have some masculine characteristics. Natural born men have some feminine characteristics. That's the norm. I could be wrong but I think the idea of purging oneself of all masculinity could be a very unhealthy goal. I'm ok with my large shoulders. I've decided not to hate that masculine trait, and just emphasize my feminine traits. I've known some fine women who enjoyed working on their cars... We can be happy without going to the far extreme of the gender spectrum.
Quote from: Gina_Z on September 30, 2013, 12:29:15 PM
I think 'deleting the male' is a big mistake. Natural born women have some masculine characteristics. Natural born men have some feminine characteristics. That's the norm. I could be wrong but I think the idea of purging oneself of all masculinity could be a very unhealthy goal. I'm ok with my large shoulders. I've decided not to hate that masculine trait, and just emphasize my feminine traits. I've known some fine women who enjoyed working on their cars... We can be happy without going to the far extreme of the gender spectrum.
Definitely this! It's hard to come out and finally be yourself... and not leave some of yourself behind. We do embody the years we were closeted - if not the body we were in. I fully intend to be who I was, be who I couldn't be, and combine the two into a complete woman!
Quote from: kabit on September 30, 2013, 09:14:33 AM
What? You don't initialize your variables first? What about safe clean-up of the previous running sim?
I'd think of it more as I'm cleaning up the simulator in an attempt to get to reality. I'm not a simulation anymore. I'm not attempting to emulate something I'm not... except as a transitional point (i.e. work, slow changes for family, etc). Take it slow and ensure that no spurious processes remain from the old sim.
I agree that it's psychologically easier for us later in life... that's a trade off. If I'd switched in puberty it would have been difficult in my head (no 20+ years experience of dealing with adult life at that point). At the same time... it would be easier socially (than as an adult of that time) and physiologically (still in puberty).
IMO, puberty's the transgender problem. To go back to the analogy - we're running a Female Core Processor (FCP)- maybe we don't realize it at the time, but we are... then we start fueling the FCP with high Male Testosterone Energy (MTE)... which is only compatible with a MCP. After puberty, the MTE is still there, but goes down to more tolerable levels... and our FCP adapts to use that energy. It's not optimal... and it generates a lot of psychological pollutants, but it works for a while. Some people have a very strong FCP, that rejects the MTE completely - they come out earlier. Others of us have a FCP that isn't so picky about its energy source.
In any case... once we switch over to the Female Estrogen Energy (FEE) source the FCP runs more smoothly... like a purring engine (or kitty, or whatever ;)).
I like the analogy... it's oddly easier for me to understand than all this biology and psychology talk. Yes, I'm an engineer...
This thread has suddenly become AMAZING. I love you guys...
Quote from: tmarina on September 30, 2013, 08:03:26 AM
Thank you for expanding my idea, there is a lot food for thought in that analogy.
Deleting the male means to have faith that the male was never there. I think that
many TS go into suicidal thoughts because they think that the male is REAL so they
think that the only way to escape the simulation is to KILL the shell.
But this is not real. To escape the matrix of the male simulation you have simply to
go out, full time. NOW. Not passing, not ready are false problems.
Just choose a D-day and then never go back. No remorse, no repent (as in the Metallica song).
Passing will come AFTER, you are not going to wake up as a girl.
You have to JUMP that cliff, delete the male which was never real and exit the male matrix.
Young TS are in a sense luckier because the male simulation has run for less time and
has done less permanent damage, but they are also prone to THINK that all this stuff
is real, because they are young and maybe there is the doubt that, with time, with
the proper "service packs" the male O.S. will run better.
But the only solution (for me) is a HARD transition from 0 to 100% and no turning back.
I don't think there is one person here who doesn't want to do that, I'd absolutely love to do that. But for some of us with family and friends, it's really more practical to consider their comfort. My mother has seen me as her boy, my family thought I was gay, but enver did it occur that I'd feel like a girl. So, having recently told her about 5 months ago, I think it's much more practical for me to take it slow, otherwise it'll arise fear in the people who've grown to know me. Not only that but it gives people adjusting time in general.
0-100% is practical for people who have nothing to lose, but you've got to consider other people have very serious variables that can greatly impair the effectiveness of a quick nudge.
Edit: I also thought this was appropriate. c:
http://youtu.be/40fY6_H1sas?t=4m35s
Quote from: Gina_Z on September 30, 2013, 12:29:15 PM
I think 'deleting the male' is a big mistake. Natural born women have some masculine characteristics.
To clarify - this is NOT what I meant and I think the others did neither.
It is not about "deleting the male". It is about deleting the stoic simulation of a male that we thought or claimed was a personality. There is a huge difference. I dropped that "fake" male persona, the simulation with the start of transition. Basically it consisted of me walking around with a stoic face all the time, speaking almost nothing, pretending to be a guy. It was quite a hollow presentation, but it fooled everyone for a while, in part because I was kind of mystic as I did not say much and people thought there must be more going on inside (which it was, but not what they expected).
So that had to go. But that does not mean to drop all things male and never pick them up again. Its just about the simulated persona that has to be deleted. Not any male traits that you have despite that, just only keeping the ones that are part of your true persona. I personally for example like to do a lot of "masculine" things - doing woodworking, constructing stuff in the house and garden, blacksmithing, ... - but these are parts of my female personality, not of the simulation. I hope this is getting clear...
'...The male was never there...' ? That sounds very black and white for me. Life has a lot of gray areas. My experience isn't so well defined. 'Deleting the male' is a lot different from saying 'deleting the stoic simulation of the male'. Life is complex. Gender is complex.
I think you're both saying the same thing in different ways!
♥
I do not want to ruffle feathers so I am sneaking out the back door now.
I will give also my opinion about "deleting the male" to clarify my thought
(I don't want to troll, just to expose my POV).
Deleting the male means to stop pretending that you are a male... just that.
Then you can repair that flat tire yourself, do some DIY at home, go fish, but with
another "self", your true self which does not need to "demonstrate" maleness anymore.
I went to the FTM section and they have a "You look badass" thread, full of pictures
of men who like to show muscles, their flat chests, etc...
That's exactly the thing which I was NEVER ABLE to simulate, to be a "badass", just because
I was not a male and the simulation failed (BSOD every time, go home, self-pity, denial, restart
male simulation with another patch which crashed next time).
They (those FTMs) CAN be badass because they are NOT girls, even with female bodies.
There are some pictures of t-boys there that look real badass even with their hands covering
their chest, because they have not had yet surgery. Body is not so important, mind is.
For their part they CANNOT simulate the female, they won't post on "You look faboulos darling" thread,
even if they COULD (with the proper hardware).
It would be funny, just to test it, to have a "you look badass" thread HERE and "you look faboluos" thread THERE, where, only for testing purposes, a MTF tries to make the most manly picture she can, and there a FTM tries to make the most feminine picture of himself.
That would hurt (for me putting on male clothes does hurt now) but it would be for science and a sacrifice could be done. I suppose that in those threads we will see the BSOD of the simulation, the fact that the simulation fails to embody fully the "energy" inside: the "badass energy" or the "fabolous energy".
Just to end my long post.
Deleting the male for me does means to STOP trying to be a badass, just be me, without trying every time to demonstrate things which are not part of me.
I suppose that for a FTM deleting the female means to STOP trying to look fabulous, stop doing "girly" things because girls are supposed to do that... also for TransMen there is the BSOD of the simulation.
Bye,
Marina
Quote from: Sierra Belle on September 30, 2013, 04:04:32 PM
0-100% is practical for people who have nothing to lose, but you've got to consider other people have very serious variables that can greatly impair the effectiveness of a quick nudge.
Edit: I also thought this was appropriate. c:
http://youtu.be/40fY6_H1sas?t=4m35s
I would like to clarify also this point.
It is possible to go 100% full time, at least for a MTF, WITHOUT actually coming out.
For a girl it is entirely possible to wear casual.
You can shop in the women's department and look more or less as before, just being careful
of color and accessories.
Of course if you have to work in a suit and tie that won't apply, but in free time it is
possible to be full time without too much "notice". I chose that route and for some months
I was full time but people around me did not notice, only that I was dressing a bit more
"strange".
But that helped a LOT for my GID, because I knew that I was "deleting the male" every day, little
by little.
YMMV
Quote from: tmarina on October 01, 2013, 12:19:15 AM
I would like to clarify also this point.
It is possible to go 100% full time, at least for a MTF, WITHOUT actually coming out.
For a girl it is entirely possible to wear casual.
You can shop in the women's department and look more or less as before, just being careful
of color and accessories.
Of course if you have to work in a suit and tie that won't apply, but in free time it is
possible to be full time without too much "notice". I chose that route and for some months
I was full time but people around me did not notice, only that I was dressing a bit more
"strange".
But that helped a LOT for my GID, because I knew that I was "deleting the male" every day, little
by little.
YMMV
It's not that simple when you live in the same room with a 12 year old boy either. ;p
Quote from: Sierra Belle on October 01, 2013, 03:58:29 AM
It's not that simple when you live in the same room with a 12 year old boy either. ;p
that's for sure. Of course you will have to continue to use male underwear, for example...
I've been following all this talk about deleting the "male" and have got bit lost, lol.
If anything, I need to simply discover why I feel so scared and worry about everything. I think this goes beyond my gender issues and actually has much more to do with my self confidence that was impacted from other reasons which are somewhat related (family upbringing, feelings of an inadequacy, body dysphoria, bullying, etc). The gender issue is very much real, but the reason I am afraid to embrace it and be true to myself stems from other both trans issues as well as other issues. I don't think there is anything to delete because the past can't ever be erased. I guess you could say I just need to "learn to live" with my circumstances. :D ;) Right? Okay, I'm lame, lol.
Quote from: learningtolive on October 01, 2013, 06:15:16 AM
I've been following all this talk about deleting the "male" and have got bit lost, lol.
If anything, I need to simply discover why I feel so scared and worry about everything. I think this goes beyond my gender issues and actually has much more to do with my self confidence that was impacted from other reasons which are somewhat related (family upbringing, feelings of an inadequacy, body dysphoria, bullying, etc). The gender issue is very much real, but the reason I am afraid to embrace it and be true to myself stems from other both trans issues as well as other issues. I don't think there is anything to delete because the past can't ever be erased. I guess you could say I just need to "learn to live" with my circumstances. :D ;) Right? Okay, I'm lame, lol.
Do you use personal affirmations? I keep a diary anyway, but if I'm feeling down about myself or my situation a nice list of those works wonders! Keep at it... you begin to believe what others tell you, but also what you tell yourself. It sounds like you've been believing those negative statements for so long, you're telling them to yourself now too... start telling yourself the opposite and reject any negative statements about who you are or how you look! You can build your inner strength that way!
♥ Good luck!
Quote from: learningtolive on October 01, 2013, 06:15:16 AM
I've been following all this talk about deleting the "male" and have got bit lost, lol.
If anything, I need to simply discover why I feel so scared and worry about everything. I think this goes beyond my gender issues and actually has much more to do with my self confidence that was impacted from other reasons which are somewhat related (family upbringing, feelings of an inadequacy, body dysphoria, bullying, etc). The gender issue is very much real, but the reason I am afraid to embrace it and be true to myself stems from other both trans issues as well as other issues. I don't think there is anything to delete because the past can't ever be erased. I guess you could say I just need to "learn to live" with my circumstances. :D ;) Right? Okay, I'm lame, lol.
Problems people have tend to be worse when they think about them, like I have noticed MtF woman who looked completely cis get clocked because they couldn't pull themselves together and kept thinking negatively about whether they pass. If you just "learn to live" with how you are and come to terms with it, I feel all that negativity and all that depression will slowly deminish. It did for me! I used to be super depressed, but as soon as I let go of the vanity and just accepted that no matter what this does to me or where I end up, I'll always be a girl. I know, easier said than done.
Anyhoo, I'd prefer to call it burying the male, erasing it is erasing what you fought for. We go through this and it sucks, but in the end it makes us more resilient.
I want to be gentle about it. I would call it having a preference for the female. :)
Quote from: Gina_Z on October 01, 2013, 11:55:58 AM
I want to be gentle about it. I would call it having a preference for the female. :)
It's not at all a preference for some of us. I hate that I want to be female, I really do. I wish I could live being a guy. I have no choice but to do what I need to to be who my brain meant me to be. This isn't a preference for me at all! Since around age 7 I've been completely uncomfortable adapting to the boy roles. It's definitely not a preference.
Quote from: Gina_Z on October 01, 2013, 11:55:58 AM
I want to be gentle about it. I would call it having a preference for the female. :)
We all identify in different ways. I tend to fit pretty strongly in the binary category, so I can't personally share that perspective. Nonetheless, I respect that we all have different views on our identity and fall somewhere unique on the gender scale. There is no one way or perspective. It's about who we are and how we come to express ourselves.
Quote from: Sierra Belle on October 01, 2013, 11:42:07 AM
Problems people have tend to be worse when they think about them, like I have noticed MtF woman who looked completely cis get clocked because they couldn't pull themselves together and kept thinking negatively about whether they pass. If you just "learn to live" with how you are and come to terms with it, I feel all that negativity and all that depression will slowly deminish. It did for me! I used to be super depressed, but as soon as I let go of the vanity and just accepted that no matter what this does to me or where I end up, I'll always be a girl. I know, easier said than done.
Anyhoo, I'd prefer to call it burying the male, erasing it is erasing what you fought for. We go through this and it sucks, but in the end it makes us more resilient.
Yeah, you are probably right. I just need to get over my unrealistic fear. For some reason, I feel like people are going to beat me up or yell at me when I start presenting as me. I have a lot of irrational fears I need to get over that have no basis in reality.
Quote from: kabit on October 01, 2013, 07:01:19 AM
Do you use personal affirmations? I keep a diary anyway, but if I'm feeling down about myself or my situation a nice list of those works wonders! Keep at it... you begin to believe what others tell you, but also what you tell yourself. It sounds like you've been believing those negative statements for so long, you're telling them to yourself now too... start telling yourself the opposite and reject any negative statements about who you are or how you look! You can build your inner strength that way!
♥ Good luck!
I suppose this site contains my personal journal, lol. Sorry everyone!
SierraBelle. It's a wide spectrum isn't it? Yeah socially it is a dysphoria for me, but for me it's like wanting chocolate cake instead of ice cream. OK, I'm supposed to want ice cream. I prefer chocolate cake. I'll go with that, and screw society. Thinking about being the perfectly normal guy is for me like thinking about being the perfect height or the perfect personality or something. I accept my flaws. It's a pretty big flaw to be in this guy body and wanting to be a socially acceptable woman. It's a flaw, but I realize dwelling on that is destructive. It's possible to enjoy my femininity and that's my attitude. Feeling like I'm in a horrible situation would be a destructive downer. Like a little person who always thinks they're in a horrible state of smallness. Dwell on the positives. I think it really helps to do that to be happy.
Quote from: Gina_Z on October 01, 2013, 12:10:04 PM
SierraBelle. It's a wide spectrum isn't it? Yeah socially it is a dysphoria for me, but for me it's like wanting chocolate cake instead of ice cream. OK, I'm supposed to want ice cream. I prefer chocolate cake. I'll go with that, and screw society. Thinking about being the perfectly normal guy is for me like thinking about being the perfect height or the perfect personality or something. I accept my flaws. It's a pretty big flaw to be in this guy body and wanting to be a socially acceptable woman. It's a flaw, but I realize dwelling on that is destructive. It's possible to enjoy my femininity and that's my attitude. Feeling like I'm in a horrible situation would be a destructive downer. Like a little person who always thinks they're in a horrible state of smallness. Dwell on the positives. I think it really helps to do that to be happy.
You have a healthy perspective. Focusing on the positives is perhaps the right thing and I strive for that. I'm just struggling to get to that point, but I'm working on that.
Quote from: Gina_Z on October 01, 2013, 12:10:04 PM
SierraBelle. It's a wide spectrum isn't it? Yeah socially it is a dysphoria for me, but for me it's like wanting chocolate cake instead of ice cream. OK, I'm supposed to want ice cream. I prefer chocolate cake. I'll go with that, and screw society. Thinking about being the perfectly normal guy is for me like thinking about being the perfect height or the perfect personality or something. I accept my flaws. It's a pretty big flaw to be in this guy body and wanting to be a socially acceptable woman. It's a flaw, but I realize dwelling on that is destructive. It's possible to enjoy my femininity and that's my attitude. Feeling like I'm in a horrible situation would be a destructive downer. Like a little person who always thinks they're in a horrible state of smallness. Dwell on the positives. I think it really helps to do that to be happy.
Well, I since got over mine. After I got my hormones I've just been completely mellowed out. I'm openly effeminate now, even though I haven't actually become socially female anywhere outside the internet, I plan to soon when I can have my own room.
It's hard not to dwell on it if you're still at point zero, because at that point there is little you can use for reassurance. But I do get what you're saying, I've said it too. :P
Quote from: learningtolive on October 01, 2013, 06:15:16 AM
I've been following all this talk about deleting the "male" and have got bit lost, lol.
If anything, I need to simply discover why I feel so scared and worry about everything. I think this goes beyond my gender issues and actually has much more to do with my self confidence that was impacted from other reasons which are somewhat related (family upbringing, feelings of an inadequacy, body dysphoria, bullying, etc). The gender issue is very much real, but the reason I am afraid to embrace it and be true to myself stems from other both trans issues as well as other issues. I don't think there is anything to delete because the past can't ever be erased. I guess you could say I just need to "learn to live" with my circumstances. :D ;) Right? Okay, I'm lame, lol.
That's called estrogen girl! ;)
Quote from: Sierra Belle on October 01, 2013, 12:17:51 PM
After I got my hormones I've just been completely mellowed out. I'm openly effeminate now, even though I haven't actually become socially female anywhere outside the internet...
This is the other significant reason I sought hormones - to calm my mind and body. If I can't be comfortably relaxed I would always stand out as odd no matter what my presentation was. Once I'm not heavily distracted by my general nerves I will be much more free to be socially outgoing. I'll never be an extrovert but at least I won't be sitting in the corner quietly feeling like crap or not wanting to even leave the house. As it stands with even minor progress to my presentation I've never felt better than when I'm out on the busy streets as a woman. I might be getting a little ahead of myself since there's so much more to come but HRT can only make this even better as my body and calm catch up with my 'enthusiasm'. Clinical voice therapy has to wait until March for an opening though. I see a grand summer of 2014 coming!
Quote from: Violet Bloom on October 03, 2013, 11:48:24 AM
This is the other significant reason I sought hormones - to calm my mind and body. If I can't be comfortably relaxed I would always stand out as odd no matter what my presentation was. Once I'm not heavily distracted by my general nerves I will be much more free to be socially outgoing. I'll never be an extrovert but at least I won't be sitting in the corner quietly feeling like crap or not wanting to even leave the house. As it stands with even minor progress to my presentation I've never felt better than when I'm out on the busy streets as a woman. I might be getting a little ahead of myself since there's so much more to come but HRT can only make this even better as my body and calm catch up with my 'enthusiasm'. Clinical voice therapy has to wait until March for an opening though. I see a grand summer of 2014 coming!
Have you tried personal training? It's a good idea while you're waiting, you might get better results through the therapy but still, if you have to wait THAT long, why not try to come up with something at least some part passable? :)
I can give you the one and only site I used to train my voice, and I'm quite content with my voice now after about 2 to 3 months of training.
Quote from: learningtolive on October 01, 2013, 06:15:16 AM
I've been following all this talk about deleting the "male" and have got bit lost, lol.
If anything, I need to simply discover why I feel so scared and worry about everything. I think this goes beyond my gender issues and actually has much more to do with my self confidence that was impacted from other reasons which are somewhat related (family upbringing, feelings of an inadequacy, body dysphoria, bullying, etc). The gender issue is very much real, but the reason I am afraid to embrace it and be true to myself stems from other both trans issues as well as other issues. I don't think there is anything to delete because the past can't ever be erased. I guess you could say I just need to "learn to live" with my circumstances. :D ;) Right? Okay, I'm lame, lol.
No, you're not lame. You make sense to me.
Quote from: Sierra Belle on October 03, 2013, 12:18:46 PM
Have you tried personal training? It's a good idea while you're waiting, you might get better results through the therapy but still, if you have to wait THAT long, why not try to come up with something at least some part passable? :)
I can give you the one and only site I used to train my voice, and I'm quite content with my voice now after about 2 to 3 months of training.
I'd love to see that website!! I practice daily, but not in front of a mic - I have a hard time not feeling silly talking into a microphone :) I guess I need more practice to feel comfortable doing that.
My range is good... I'm most worried about inflection and practicing switching between female and male voice depending on situation (A small fear of mine... get good at talking as a woman and continue to do so at work... oops ;))
Quote from: kabit on October 03, 2013, 03:51:34 PM
I'd love to see that website!! I practice daily, but not in front of a mic - I have a hard time not feeling silly talking into a microphone :) I guess I need more practice to feel comfortable doing that.
My range is good... I'm most worried about inflection and practicing switching between female and male voice depending on situation (A small fear of mine... get good at talking as a woman and continue to do so at work... oops ;))
Yeeeeeeeah, I can't really switch back. I have to really try but if you just keep in contact with your male voice, you should be fine. It might naturally raise in pitch a little, but you won't lose the masculinity if you keep it close. xP
Here's the site: http://www.looking-glass.greenend.org.uk/voice.htm
I posted this in Jennygirl's Yeson thread, but here it is again. The progress I got using just that site's tips after the 2 to 3 months of practice.
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0qvr5NWLunM
I have a great set up to practice though, I have been a female online since I was very little and I just played off like I had voice problems, basically mute. And just came back and said just recently fixed my voice, and since then I've been getting feed back on how well it's been getting. I know about that talking to a mic thing, though. I felt weird making that Vocaroo recording. xD
Quote from: Joules on October 03, 2013, 04:16:41 PM
Hey Sierra,
I just listened to your recording, WOW! You sound great, if I didn't know I wouldn't suspect anything at all.
+1. An amazing voice :)
Heh, just for fun, I'll do the same. I'll also drop range to male so ya'll can see what's possible in a fully masculinized vocal range.
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1TiXxQ1DRUE
Edit: Just to be clear, this is my "lecture voice", I'll update with conversational tonality later, if anyone cares.
Post Edit: Conversational voice, gravel, upspeaking:
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1pWqD7lMYvV
Quote from: Victoria Mitchell on October 03, 2013, 04:38:44 PM
Heh, just for fun, I'll do the same. I'll also drop range to male so ya'll can see what's possible in a fully masculinized vocal range.
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1TiXxQ1DRUE
LOL! I love the phrase. Your voice is so much more clear than mine, it's amazing. xD
Quote from: Nidalexi on October 03, 2013, 04:45:02 PM
LOL! I love the phrase. Your voice is so much more clear than mine, it's amazing. xD
Thanks! It's not always that clear (allergies and colds are a mo'fo) but I work in a job and have hobbies where I have to talk... all. the. time. so, I've had a lot of practice at really forcing it to express myself accurately.
P.S. Your voice is great. Very modern and hip.
Quote from: Victoria Mitchell on October 03, 2013, 04:47:43 PM
Thanks! It's not always that clear (allergies and colds are a mo'fo) but I work in a job and have hobbies where I have to talk... all. the. time. so, I've had a lot of practice at really forcing it to express myself accurately.
Yeah, I'm actually on the verge of getting sick, but my voice wasn't ruined by it yet. That's just how it is for now. I think I got lucky, I never had a very deep set voice to begin with, it was very mid range for a guy. Your range difference was like grand canyon size. xD
Your voices are wonderful!
Quote from: Nidalexi on October 03, 2013, 04:10:23 PM
Yeeeeeeeah, I can't really switch back. I have to really try but if you just keep in contact with your male voice, you should be fine. It might naturally raise in pitch a little, but you won't lose the masculinity if you keep it close. xP
Here's the site: http://www.looking-glass.greenend.org.uk/voice.htm
I posted this in Jennygirl's Yeson thread, but here it is again. The progress I got using just that site's tips after the 2 to 3 months of practice.
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0qvr5NWLunM
I have a great set up to practice though, I have been a female online since I was very little and I just played off like I had voice problems, basically mute. And just came back and said just recently fixed my voice, and since then I've been getting feed back on how well it's been getting. I know about that talking to a mic thing, though. I felt weird making that Vocaroo recording. xD
for 2-3 months that is amazing voice you have!
Quote from: Aina on October 03, 2013, 09:06:10 PM
for 2-3 months that is amazing voice you have!
The site is amazing! But thanks. :D
Quote from: Victoria Mitchell on October 03, 2013, 04:38:44 PM
Heh, just for fun, I'll do the same. I'll also drop range to male so ya'll can see what's possible in a fully masculinized vocal range.
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1TiXxQ1DRUE
Wow, you sound EXACTLY like an ex girlfriend of mine. You pronounce all you words the same way too. :)
That gravel sound is called "vocal fry". I tend to do the same thing in my female voice. I don't know why either.
Quote from: Violet Bloom on September 29, 2013, 09:40:32 PM
Agreed, and I'll be starting my Apple injections and Microsoft suppressors shortly. My ports will also need reconfiguring... ;)
Yes! Want to borrow my "I'm a Mac" tee shirt? ;)
Quote from: Nidalexi on October 03, 2013, 09:09:03 PM
The site is amazing! But thanks. :D
Yes, a very nice voice. But I told you that already.
I hope mine gets better....
Quote from: RavenMoon on October 04, 2013, 01:48:58 AM
Yes! Want to borrow my "I'm a Mac" tee shirt? ;)
Noooooo! Don't be a Maaaaac! I don't want to feel like hatefully destroying you with a blunt weapon.
Quote from: A on October 05, 2013, 07:13:37 AM
Noooooo! Don't be a Maaaaac! I don't want to feel like hatefully destroying you with a blunt weapon.
Oh, no need to worry - my original jest was both ironic and possibly snarky. I'm still running Windows 2000 (and possibly my actual brain is too!).
Quote from: RavenMoon on October 04, 2013, 01:48:58 AM
Yes! Want to borrow my "I'm a Mac" tee shirt? ;)
If you don't mind it being worn as 'hipster irony'. :D
Hey! This is my thread! We only use linux here. ;)
Quote from: A on October 05, 2013, 07:13:37 AM
Noooooo! Don't be a Maaaaac! I don't want to feel like hatefully destroying you with a blunt weapon.
Been using Macs since the 90s. I'm a graphic artist and musician and that what's used in that field. Even places like Sony, who sell PCs use Macs. ;) (I was working at Sony music last year). NASA too. If it's good enough for them it's good enough for me. It's a great reliable unix based system. And I'm typing this on my iPhone. Lol
Quote from: learningtolive on October 05, 2013, 11:35:56 AM
Hey! This is my thread! We only use linux here. ;)
Mac OS X is based on Free BSD Unix. ;) I can compile and run Linux software. Difference is I can also run ProTools and Photoshop. :) I also have two versions of Linux installed (Ubuntu and Debian) on my iMac along with Haiku. Oh and Windows 7. So I have my bases covered. Honestly Windows is junk (and I used it since version 3) and Linux feels like a toy in comparison. Some of the window managers are ok but are not very polished, and the choice of software is a joke too. But what ever makes people happy...
My dad works with mainframes - everything else is amature! :P
Quote from: learningtolive on October 05, 2013, 11:35:56 AM
Hey! This is my thread! We only use linux here. ;)
I'm glad we can at least give you a laugh. :laugh:
Quote from: RavenMoon on October 05, 2013, 01:25:09 PM
Been using Macs since the 90s. I'm a graphic artist and musician and that what's used in that field. Even places like Sony, who sell PCs use Macs. ;) (I was working at Sony music last year). NASA too. If it's good enough for them it's good enough for me. It's a great reliable unix based system. And I'm typing this on my iPhone. Lol
Ahem, I'm partly a graphic designer and I abhor Macs. And honestly I've never run into something that I wanted to do that the Mac could do but Windows couldn't. Rather, everything has always been much more practical to do on Windows. Except one thing. The Mac's search engine is a lot better. However, I have run into many things that were impractical or even impossible to do on a Mac. For example, if you get a folder from the server whose permissions have been messed up by a bad network configuration (like ours at school) and you need to remove "read only" from the folder, you press Cmd-I, and you change it... but surprise, there's no way to have it apply to the contents of the folder. Then you select all files in the folder, and press Cmd-I... Surprise, no bulk properties edit, you get 12 informations windows to have fun with. Not to mention that everything about the interface, to me, is completely unintuitive... Though at school, the computers have Snow Leopard, so some newer version may have changed things. But I figure not so much.
At school, we're forced to use Macs for some of our classes, because indeed many businesses in the field use Macs. I do know about there being more specialized sound software (though for my own needs Audition has always been more than sufficient, and like everything it's heaps more comfortable to use on Windows) for Macs, but largely, in the graphic design industry, as far as I know the whole deal about Macs is because people are used to them. Because indeed, ages ago, Windows was inadequate for graphic design. Now, however, it does just as well as the Mac for (if you shop well) a fraction of the price. And it has decent programming software, and it can run a thousand times more games, etc.
So if I'm hired somewhere and my work tool is a Mac... I'm going to kindly ask if I can install Windows on it and get my own mouse (ugh, Mac mice!)
I complain and complain, and no doubt you would have a ton to say against Windows too. But I think that in the end, that whole computer war is about almost nothing but what you're used to. Someone raised with a Mac will 95 % of the time prefer Macs forever, and the same goes for Windows.
As for Linux... Don't think any global comment apart maybe from there being less compatible software applies. There are so many kinds of Linux OS, that range from very similar to Mac OS or Windows to completely dissimilar to either. And I'll be honest, I've never tried any distribution of Linux for more than a few minutes.
Quote from: learningtolive on October 05, 2013, 11:35:56 AM
Hey! This is my thread! We only use linux here. ;)
Not only your thread, but I've been thinking...
I have confidence that you will wake up one day as a girl! I'm nowhere near there yet, but someday I will wake up and just be female. Regardless of what I look like, I'll be me in body, mind, and spirit.
♥♥♥
Quote from: A on October 05, 2013, 03:16:57 PMRather, everything has always been much more practical to do on Windows.
Clearly you haven't used Macs very much. Everything on Windows requires four more steps to do. To illustrate this, look at the instructions for cross platform software. The Windows installation will have many more steps than the Mac, which often involves dragging the app to the app folder. You delete them the same way. Things aren't hard to find on a Mac because there are not zillions of archaic named files scattered in the system folder like you have on Windows. Deleting an application generally involves moving it to the trash. There are no plethora of files it installed, and no register to mess with.
Plus, I have never had a virus on my Mac since a fairly harmless one in the mid 90s. I don't even run any anti virus software. Windows on the other hand is a very insecure platform, and there are way too much malware out there.
I don't know a single graphic designer than uses a PC. Not in the NYC area anyway. Like I said, go work for Sony Music and see the look on their faces when you tell them you want to use a PC. They will say no. They don't have any, except maybe in the accounting department. Same with any of the major graphics firms. I've worked for AJ Bart, RR Donnelly, etc. You might find some Windows file servers, and that's about it.
Heck, even Microsoft uses them. I'm sure you heard the whole thing about the Windows 95 logo being designed on a Mac in Macromedia Freehand? Why didn't they use a PC? And the startup sounds done by Brain Eno were recorded on his Mac. Then they got Robert Fripp to do some sounds, probably recorded on a PC, but Robert uses a Mac. He said he would rather have made sounds for Apple, but they didn't ask. The new Metro touch interface was designed on Macs. See a pattern here?
Then you have music production. PCs? So they can blue screen on you? 99% of all the music you listen to was recorded or edited or mastered using Macs. Because they are bullet proof, have less latency issues, and far less driver issues and conflicts. Creative types want to just turn the thing on and use it. Using a computer should be like using a toaster. It's an appliance.
QuoteExcept one thing. The Mac's search engine is a lot better.
Hmmmmm. The search engine in OS 9 was great. On the other hand Spotlight, the search engine in OS X blows chunks. The actual database is good, but the front end sucks. So I use a third party replacement. It was better a few OS versions back. I can do a search for a file I know I have using the
exact file name, and it often finds nothing. The third party front end finds it in seconds. I've complained to Apple about this on many occasions.
QuoteHowever, I have run into many things that were impractical or even impossible to do on a Mac. For example, if you get a folder from the server whose permissions have been messed up by a bad network configuration (like ours at school) and you need to remove "read only" from the folder, you press Cmd-I, and you change it... but surprise, there's no way to have it apply to the contents of the folder. Then you select all files in the folder, and press Cmd-I... Surprise, no bulk properties edit, you get 12 informations windows to have fun with. Not to mention that everything about the interface, to me, is completely unintuitive... Though at school, the computers have Snow Leopard, so some newer version may have changed things. But I figure not so much.
OK, you select the folder, change the permissions, and then you go down to the little gear icon on the bottom, and select: "Apply to enclosed items..." That copies the permissions to the items in the folder. It works 99% of the time.
Sometimes it's a server issue. Macs use the standard SMB protocol. If however, the file server is a foreign file system, like NTFS, then it's read only, and you need something like Tuxera NTFS to make them read/write. You can also use something like BatChmod. Or use the terminal.
If you don't want multiple Get Info windows to open, hold down the Option key and get Info becomes Show Inpector, which works on multiple files at once. See, you just have to learn to use Macs better. :) There are lots of less commonly used features for power users.
Snow Leopard is pretty old now. I'm on 10.8.5 Mountain Lion, and it's about to be superseded by 10.9 Mavericks which should be out in a few weeks. As soon as my music software is qualified, I'll be updating the OS, which is generally a painless process. My son is still running Lion on his mac Book pro. He doesn't update much of anything. I think my ex still has Lion on her MacMini. Or maybe Snow Leopard. I'll have to look next time I'm over there. But she just upgraded her RAM to 8GB, so I think she's ready for a newer OS.
QuoteAt school, we're forced to use Macs for some of our classes, because indeed many businesses in the field use Macs. I do know about there being more specialized sound software (though for my own needs Audition has always been more than sufficient, and like everything it's heaps more comfortable to use on Windows) for Macs, but largely, in the graphic design industry, as far as I know the whole deal about Macs is because people are used to them. Because indeed, ages ago, Windows was inadequate for graphic design. Now, however, it does just as well as the Mac for (if you shop well) a fraction of the price. And it has decent programming software, and it can run a thousand times more games, etc.
I don't know why you would say "forced" when it's the proper platform to use in the real world. Stopped being so stubborn. Change is a good thing. I use Audition too. It's mostly a stereo editor. It's not very good at multitracking, and I'm not really sure why they put that in there. I guess for post sound editing where you want to mix tracks. But you can't really do music production on it. And I'm only using it because my favorite audio editor, TC Works SparkXL, was discontinued and never updated for Intel processors. So I couldn't use it anymore after Lion, because Apple dropped support for non Intel software. I kind of like Audition, until I really need to do edits. Then it sucks. There are lots of things you can't do easily on it, as you can on other pro editors. I just got Sony Sound Forge Pro, and I think I might switch to that. But I don't use stereo editors as much as the DAW multitrack application.
It looks exactly the the same on a Mac or Windows, so I think you are just more comfortable on Windows. Most modern software looks the same when you are in the applications' interface. ProTools looks like ProTools. Cubase looks like Cubase. Photoshop looks like Photoshop.
The thing is Macs are more reliable. I've been sys op at several printing firms and we never had issues with the bunch of Macs we had, but the Windows machines were always pitching a fit.
Macs come with excellent programing software, Xcode. You can write cross platform software too.
I started on PCs with Windows 3.1. At work I was on Macs using System 7.1. It was clear that Macs were heads and shoulder past Windows back then. And in fact, that windowing code was licensed to MS by Apple when MS wrote the first version of Word for Macs.
Windows 95 looked a little better, but it was still clunky to use, and was just a shell on top of DOS. NT/2000 was better, but still ugly. The latest versions of Windows are a lot nicer, but no where as elegant in use. Several members of one of the bands I'm in use PCs. Since I worked in the computer field, I'm the person they call. While we are jumping through hoops to do some simple networking thing, I like to point out that I don't have to do that. lol
When I got married my father-in-law started calling every week with a problem with his PC. He couldn't get his printer to work unless he reinstalled the printer drivers every time he wanted to print. Then there was another issues. He had an HP, so he got a new Dell. Similar issues. Then his daughter told him to get rid of the PC and get a Mac. So he bought a G5 iMac. Of course everything seemed backwards to him, and he called me every couple of days asking how to do simple tasks. And then one day the phone calls stopped. He got it, and never has an issue now. The last call I got from him was how to transfer all the files from his iMac to his new Mac Book pro. I told him, plug in a Firewire cable and it's automatic. Makes a clone on the new Mac. Now he's happy as a clam, and never has a single issue with his Mac. I wish that was true of the PC using friends I have.
My friend's brand new Lenovo can't copy all his files from his old Dell without buying software from MS. They wouldn't even help him over the phone. And of course he was talking to someone in India. They told him to call Dell. They told him to call MS...
I've spent so many hours with these friends, and they are smart people, that I'll need to start charging them. lol
QuoteSo if I'm hired somewhere and my work tool is a Mac... I'm going to kindly ask if I can install Windows on it and get my own mouse (ugh, Mac mice!)
Dumb reason. You can use any mouse you want. I used a Microsoft two button mouse for many years. Then I use some nice wireless Logitech Laser Mice. Now I use a wireless trackpad. But I hardly use the mouse when working. I use the keyboard, or if I'm doing artwork, my Wacom tablet. And you know the current Mac mice have two buttons, you just can't see them.
QuoteI complain and complain, and no doubt you would have a ton to say against Windows too. But I think that in the end, that whole computer war is about almost nothing but what you're used to. Someone raised with a Mac will 95 % of the time prefer Macs forever, and the same goes for Windows.
I've had to use a number of platforms at jobs... Macs, Windows, SGI IRIX, Sun Solaris, IBM AIX, etc. Notice that they are all UNix bvased except Windows.
QuoteAs for Linux... Don't think any global comment apart maybe from there being less compatible software applies. There are so many kinds of Linux OS, that range from very similar to Mac OS or Windows to completely dissimilar to either. And I'll be honest, I've never tried any distribution of Linux for more than a few minutes.
I have a friend that uses Linux. He's always trying to get me to switch. All the things he said that are good about it, well the same things apply to OS X. My Mac never crashes. Except for system software installs I never reboot it. Applications never crash. The last one that went South on me was a prerelease version of Safari (I'm a Apple developers member), but thats to be expected.
So I say to my friend, "what happens if I want to run Photoshop, or Illustrator, or InDesign, or QuarkXPress, or MS Office, or ProTools, or Cubase?" I use these programs almost daily. He says... wait for it... "Oh, well if you need to run that kind of software... boot into Windows" LOLOLOLOL
So I had to point out I didn't need to do that. I have a Unix based OS that runs all the commercial software I need. If there are any instances of software that is not out for Macs, and I haven't run into much, I run it in Windows in VMWare Fusion. I don't play games on my Mac, except Tetrus. We have an XBox here, a Playstation, several Nintendo boxes. The kids play with all that.
Yep there are lots of versions of Linux. I've been using them since they first came out. I had MKLinux on my old Powermac 6100 in the 90s. I had RedHat for PowerPC CPUs on my old PowerComputing Mac clone. I also ran Be OS on that. That was a very nice operating system. Now I run, Haiku, which is an open source version of Be OS. It's much nicer than Linux or Windows.
It's good to know your way around on different operating systems. It's like driving two different cars. I might like one better, but I know how to drive the other one too. Microsoft is slowly losing its dominance in the marketplace. Just Apple's iPhone division is bigger than all of MS! And the iPhones and iPads run a stripped down version of OS X. I like to tell the story that in 2000 I was commuting daily from NJ to NYC. On the train I would see maybe one Apple laptop, as I walked from car to car looking for a seat. Now I see mostly Apple laptops, and an occasional PC laptop. So that's like at least 10 I see every day on one train, and I didn't even walk the entire length. I've sat next to people programing software, connected to their job using VPN, editing music, video, writing, you name it.
Wow this thread is so off the tracks. When did this turn into the Mac vs PC thread? :laugh:
Quote from: Heather on October 05, 2013, 04:43:48 PM
Wow this thread is so off the tracks. When did this turn into the Mac vs PC thread? :laugh:
People must express their inner geek, it comes out of nowhere.
Quote from: Heather on October 05, 2013, 04:43:48 PM
Wow this thread is so off the tracks. When did this turn into the Mac vs PC thread? :laugh:
Yes, sorry about that! :) I am a geek, and proud of it!
Quote from: RavenMoon on October 05, 2013, 04:47:40 PM
Yes, sorry about that! :)
I just thought it was funny that's all nothing to be sorry about. ;)
Quote from: Heather on October 05, 2013, 04:49:57 PM
I just thought it was funny that's all nothing to be sorry about. ;)
;D
It is funny, as are people's misconceptions about Macs. ;)
Quote from: Nidalexi on October 05, 2013, 04:46:06 PM
People must express their inner geek, it comes out of nowhere.
Just saying, but the geekiest boy and girl I know are both TG...
Quote from: RavenMoon on October 05, 2013, 04:51:25 PM
;D
It is funny, as are people's misconceptions about Macs. ;)
Hey I have no misconceptions about Macs I want one I just don't have Mac money. :laugh:
Someday I'll wake up as a girl with a Mac and a PC. I use Audition on my PC along with other DAW software. I love it. I hate how iPhoto doesn't let you see the folder that photos are in. It would be so nice to just copy and paste from that invisible folder. Same with iTunes. It's like Apple wants to control what I am doing. I hate 'synching'. On the other hand, Apple can be very user friendly and intuitive. Photoshop is great on my Mac. My audio software on my PC is great. Mac's 'Pages' stinks so I got MSWord for Mac 2011. Nice. Both PC and Mac have deficiencies. Both can be great tools. It will be gradual but looking forward to waking up as a girl.
Quote from: Heather on October 05, 2013, 04:54:03 PM
Hey I have no misconceptions about Macs I want one I just don't have Mac money. :laugh:
I buy used reconditioned Macs. ;)
I'm going to try to sum up and tie this tangent back into the thread. I have used all the major computing platforms and know them inside-out in excruciating detail. Every one has it's own benefits and weaknesses. I will always use whatever is the best tool for the particular job. But in terms of making this relevant to transition I would say that I'm not planning on following all 'the rules' that society will define me by. Girls "aren't supposed to be interested or versed in computing" but I will happily be a girl who is tech-savvy. Everyone should remember that the most important thing in transition is to confidently be yourself, whatever that may entail. The future will offer way more openness to what defines gender and we should all use that to our advantage. Personality goes a long way towards whether anyone really cares if your looks pass to a gleaming polish.
In short, don't be afraid to be a PC in a Mac world.
Quote from: Gina_Z on October 05, 2013, 06:12:06 PM
Someday I'll wake up as a girl with a Mac and a PC. I use Audition on my PC along with other DAW software. I love it. I hate how iPhoto doesn't let you see the folder that photos are in. It would be so nice to just copy and paste from that invisible folder. Same with iTunes. It's like Apple wants to control what I am doing. I hate 'synching'. On the other hand, Apple can be very user friendly and intuitive. Photoshop is great on my Mac. My audio software on my PC is great. Mac's 'Pages' stinks so I got MSWord for Mac 2011. Nice. Both PC and Mac have deficiencies. Both can be great tools. It will be gradual but looking forward to waking up as a girl.
You don't need to see the folder iPhoto uses. You can export photos right from it. If you really want to see the file, right click on the image and choose "show in Finder".
iTunes absolutely shows the songs in nested folders. Normally it's in the iTunes folder in your home folder. My music is on a 2TB external drive that is also shared wirelessly with my son's MacBook so we don't have to have two libraries. I put the iTunes music folder in my Sidebar. And once again right click on the song and choose Show in Finder.
But why do you need to see the files anyway? Windows users seem to like to go to a folder, look for the song and play it. iTunes just shows all your music in a nice organized fashion. If I could search through my CD collection like I can in iTunes I'd be happy!
As far as synching, I have an iPod Classic that has about 20,000 songs on it as well as my iPhone. I love how I can add a note or a contact on either my Mac or phone and it's there on the other one.
Oooookay. I shouldn't have started this. I hate fights. You took the time to write all this though, so I'll take the time to reply.
Quote from: RavenMoon on October 05, 2013, 04:37:23 PM
Clearly you haven't used Macs very much.
Never by choice, but a couple hundred hours for sure at school.
Everything on Windows requires four more steps to do. To illustrate this, look at the instructions for cross platform software. The Windows installation will have many more steps than the Mac, which often involves dragging the app to the app folder.
I actually appreciate the computer telling me what it's doing and asking me how to do it. I really hate the Mac's simplistic "if you don't ask you'll never know, and even then you probably won't know either"
You delete them the same way. Things aren't hard to find on a Mac because there are not zillions of archaic named files scattered in the system folder like you have on Windows. Deleting an application generally involves moving it to the trash. There are no plethora of files it installed, and no register to mess with.
To be honest, to someone even a little used to Windows, those are not complicated or archaic at all. They make perfect sense to a Windows user, contrary to the Mac which works in an incredibly visual but implicit way which just doesn't work with you when your brain functions like mine. Also, you never have to mess with the register unless 1. you went out of your way to do something really messy by manually editing the registry to begin with, or 2. you're trying to customize your PC in a special way that a Mac doesn't even allow to begin with.
Plus, I have never had a virus on my Mac since a fairly harmless one in the mid 90s. I don't even run any anti virus software. Windows on the other hand is a very insecure platform, and there are way too much malware out there.
Yeah, our teacher instructed us on that myth. It IS true that you don't catch a lot of virus on Macs. But the only reason for that is that Mac OS works very differently from Windows, and Windows is insanely more used, globally, than Mac OS. Thus, for someone seeking to do harm or gain profit by distributing malicious software, to code up Windows software. If Macs became more popular than PCs, for sure you'll need an antivirus software just as much as you do on a PC. Just leave the bad people some time to learn to do it for Macs and distribute their stuff.
I don't know a single graphic designer than uses a PC. Not in the NYC area anyway. Like I said, go work for Sony Music and see the look on their faces when you tell them you want to use a PC. They will say no. They don't have any, except maybe in the accounting department. Same with any of the major graphics firms. I've worked for AJ Bart, RR Donnelly, etc. You might find some Windows file servers, and that's about it.
I dunno about any of those things. I just know that of the few companies that I know, there's usually either a mix of Macs and PCs or only PCs. When you start a business nowadays, and you realize that you can put Adobe CS for designing on a PC as well, AND the PC will also give you much better tools to actually code up the website, AND that Macs cost a leg and an arm, usually PCs make a lot of sense. That would mostly only apply to younger people who didn't get used to working mostly with a Mac though. Of course a 50-year-old who started their career back when Windows wasn't worth crap for anything artistic is gonna be used to Macs and want them. And probably, they'll also be under the misconception that Windows isn't good for graphical work, still.
Heck, even Microsoft uses them. I'm sure you heard the whole thing about the Windows 95 logo being designed on a Mac in Macromedia Freehand?
I'll admit that in 1995 (and that does fit in "ages ago" especially if we're talking about computers), Windows was probably profoundly inadequate for artistic work.
Why didn't they use a PC? And the startup sounds done by Brain Eno were recorded on his Mac. Then they got Robert Fripp to do some sounds, probably recorded on a PC, but Robert uses a Mac. He said he would rather have made sounds for Apple, but they didn't ask. The new Metro touch interface was designed on Macs. See a pattern here?
That's a matter of people, to begin with. Wikipedia says he was born in 1946. That makes his career having started not only when Windows was inadequate, but back when PCs weren't even able to do anything artistic decently, right? Besides, I did admit that even now, it is true that professional sound work is still better on Macs. (From what I've heard/read... I only had one class on sound work and only do any very occasionally.)
Then you have music production. PCs? So they can blue screen on you?
Never happened to me TBH. In the beginning I wasn't sure if the BSOD wasn't a myth and looked it up, actually.
99% of all the music you listen to was recorded or edited or mastered using Macs. Because they are bullet proof,
Okay, my school's computers don't represent the Macs around the world, but I certainly wouldn't call them bulletproof. It was common knowledge, during my Illustrator class, that you needed to save OFTEN because all of a sudden, for no known reason, Illustrator CS5 would, pretty often, give you the Mac's loading "beach ball" for a long time then crash, making you lose your work. On Windows, it's only happened to me once, on my previous computer, which was pretty under-specced and running Windows Vista, a version not exactly known for being awesome and two years older than Mac OS X Snow Leopard.
have less latency issues,
Not sure what you mean by that
and far less driver issues and conflicts
One of my teachers (who is actually pro-Mac all the way) told us that the reason for that was most people used their Macs with only Apple pieces. If you put in more third-party peripherals, he said, you're gonna run in problems too. And actually, a well-built PC doesn't have that sort of issue. It only does when the parts picked aren't completely compatible in every way. Which, well, is impossible to happen when the Apple empire chooses what goes in the computer.
. Creative types want to just turn the thing on and use it.
That's not true of everyone. Some (and not just me, as I'm a bad example, being good at both creative stuff and programming) really like to be asked stuff and getting to choose stuff.
Using a computer should be like using a toaster. It's an appliance.
Maybe that applies more to older people? People in my class, raised with computers, mostly don't seem to expect that kind of simplicity from a computer. There are some, yes, but most, even some of the most artistic ones in my class, are really good at handling computers and to them "simplifying the experience" is basically useless if not pure crippling of it.
Hmmmmm. The search engine in OS 9 was great.
Uh, I know no such ancient thing, sorry.
On the other hand Spotlight, the search engine in OS X blows chunks.
Well, you can say with pride that a Windows user praised Spotlight compared to Windows' search, even though you think Spotlight is bad compared to the old search system.
The actual database is good, but the front end sucks. So I use a third party replacement. It was better a few OS versions back. I can do a search for a file I know I have using the exact file name, and it often finds nothing. The third party front end finds it in seconds. I've complained to Apple about this on many occasions.
Hmm... Yeah, Windows' search has many shortcomings, but it always finds a file from its name. Odd.
OK, you select the folder, change the permissions, and then you go down to the little gear icon on the bottom, and select: "Apply to enclosed items..." That copies the permissions to the items in the folder. It works 99% of the time.
I don't remember why, but we couldn't do that. I think maybe it shot an error message. I really can,t remember. But I do remember looking up the option, trying it, and saying "why give me an option if it's not gonna work?"... something like that.
Sometimes it's a server issue. Macs use the standard SMB protocol. If however, the file server is a foreign file system, like NTFS, then it's read only, and you need something like Tuxera NTFS to make them read/write. You can also use something like BatChmod. Or use the terminal.
Apparently, it's because of the software they use for logins and such. But don't ask my school's IT team to do that sorta "complicated" stuff, haha. By the way, did you know that from version Lion onwards, Mac OS is able to read and write to and from NTFS natively? Nice eh?
If you don't want multiple Get Info windows to open, hold down the Option key and get Info becomes Show Inpector, which works on multiple files at once.
How the heck was I supposed to know that? Press alt and mysteriously the menu options change? It's not written anywhere. Grmbl. Thanks though. I'll be sure to try it next time I get an error.
See, you just have to learn to use Macs better. :) There are lots of less commonly used features for power users.
Snow Leopard is pretty old now.
Yeah well... Half our PCs are Windows XP, and badly configured at that. Feel my pain. I wouldn't say I actually prefer the Macs to those old Windows XP PCs, but... they get closer. x.x
I'm on 10.8.5 Mountain Lion, and it's about to be superseded by 10.9 Mavericks which should be out in a few weeks. As soon as my music software is qualified, I'll be updating the OS, which is generally a painless process.
That's one thing I didn't think about that I've always liked about Mac OS. Smaller updates, and updates that are easier and painless to install. Windows is copying that now. It started with Windows 8, for which they provided an upgrade system that apparently made the process a lot easier, and they're really getting into it with Windows 8.1 that's coming out this month, with new versions being truly only easy to install updates.
My son is still running Lion on his mac Book pro. He doesn't update much of anything. I think my ex still has Lion on her MacMini. Or maybe Snow Leopard. I'll have to look next time I'm over there. But she just upgraded her RAM to 8GB, so I think she's ready for a newer OS.
I don't know why you would say "forced" when it's the proper platform to use in the real world.
Lol. Sorry but that's a strong word. For one, yes I'm forced, and even if it is for my good, I am still forced because I don't wanna do it. And THE proper platform to use in the real world? Nah, not really. It's one of the usable, proper platforms. And also, I'm not a pure graphic designer. I'm half designer, half Web programmer. And programming on a Mac... No, graphic design on a Mac is uncomfortable but very doable, but programming on a Mac is BEYOND uncomfortable.
Stopped being so stubborn. Change is a good thing.
I'd like to turn that right back at you actually. Macs have been used in the graphic design sector for a long, long time. Now, PCs are able to keep up. And PCs are cheaper. If the PC can do the exact same thing, you're more familiar with the PC and it's cheaper, (still speaking purely about graphic design), I don't see any point in using a Mac if you don't have to.
I use Audition too. It's mostly a stereo editor. It's not very good at multitracking, and I'm not really sure why they put that in there.
You're the boss. I don't really know much about the advanced sound stuff., heh.
I guess for post sound editing where you want to mix tracks. But you can't really do music production on it. And I'm only using it because my favorite audio editor, TC Works SparkXL, was discontinued and never updated for Intel processors. So I couldn't use it anymore after Lion, because Apple dropped support for non Intel software. I kind of like Audition, until I really need to do edits. Then it sucks. There are lots of things you can't do easily on it, as you can on other pro editors. I just got Sony Sound Forge Pro, and I think I might switch to that. But I don't use stereo editors as much as the DAW multitrack application.
It looks exactly the the same on a Mac or Windows
Nope! Similar but different. Look more closely - I swear. Besides, even if they were completely the same, there are still annoyances about Mac OS that I have trouble dealing with. It's nothing huge, but the three buttons at the top left of the window on a Mac... they're just so tiny. I always miss them and click the wrong spot. Yeah, zero dexterity, that's me. (Also, on the topic of left and right... I don't care which one it is (although now that I'm used to it like that of course I have a preference for top-right) but couldn't they agree on one side and have every OS use the same? It just confuses everyone switching OS's that way. D:)
, so I think you are just more comfortable on Windows.
That is true though. As I,ve been saying, 75 % of the problem with Mac OS is that it's not what I was used to. People fight and are completely sure that THEIR OS is better, but actually, I may prefer Windows, but I argue that they are probably equal. The only objective argument I can invoke to claim PCs' superiority is price and hardware customization capabilities, and even then.
Most modern software looks the same when you are in the applications' interface. ProTools looks like ProTools. Cubase looks like Cubase. Photoshop looks like Photoshop.
The thing is Macs are more reliable. I've been sys op at several printing firms and we never had issues with the bunch of Macs we had, but the Windows machines were always pitching a fit.
Seriously, all a matter of being used to stuff, and what you use mainly. Apart from viruses, I've never had any reason to think a Mac is more reliable. Actually, with my issues with Adobe software crashing on it, I could say they're less reliable in my experience. But I can also see that it's only my experience. At our school, the tech people are always having trouble making stuff work with Macs. The main reason is that most of the computers are Windows, and to begin with it was actually only Windows, so they chose Windows-ish network software. I'm guessing a company adding Windows PCs to its mostly Mac-and-designed-for-Macs network will experience problems as well.
Macs come with excellent programing software, Xcode. You can write cross platform software too.
Oh uhm I don't do software. I'm not that kind of programmer. I just do Web programming. For that it's pretty much Smultron (which is "meh" at best) or Dreamweaver. But I don't use Dreamweaver all that often on my PC, because I just don't like too many details about it (and to begin with it's a relatively big program with tons of features while I pretty much only need the code thing and good syntaxic colouring). There probably ARE decent solutions, but... all computers at school are under Deep Freeze, so you do with what's on the computer. And apparently the best text editor they could find us (not saying they searched all that well) was Smultron.
And no matter the software, I get a problem... that's not directly Mac OS, though, it's the French translation of it. Or the implementation of the keyboard layout. I didn't investigate. The shortcut to change tabs (or windows) on Macs is Cmd+~, which is supposed to be the button next to "1". But on the Canadian Multilingual Standard, "~" is not there. Therefore, Cmd+the key it's supposed to be and Cmd+the key that makes ~ and adding any combination of shift, Ctrl or Alt, you get no tab switching. Very very inconvenient when you do Web programming.
I started on PCs with Windows 3.1. At work I was on Macs using System 7.1. It was clear that Macs were heads and shoulder past Windows back then. And in fact, that windowing code was licensed to MS by Apple when MS wrote the first version of Word for Macs.
Really? I thought Windows had copied the window feature and Apple tried to sue them for it and failed. But I wasn't even able to walk back then, so I'm gonna trust you on that.
Windows 95 looked a little better, but it was still clunky to use, and was just a shell on top of DOS. NT/2000 was better, but still ugly. The latest versions of Windows are a lot nicer, but no where as elegant in use.
I think that's precisely where the "I'm used to it" factor comes in. To me a Mac is absolutely and completely clunky to use.
Several members of one of the bands I'm in use PCs. Since I worked in the computer field, I'm the person they call. While we are jumping through hoops to do some simple networking thing, I like to point out that I don't have to do that. lol
When I got married my father-in-law started calling every week with a problem with his PC. He couldn't get his printer to work unless he reinstalled the printer drivers every time he wanted to print. Then there was another issues. He had an HP, so he got a new Dell. Similar issues.
Oh yeah, there's that. Windows is and will probably always be a lot less "foolproof"/"computer-newbie-friendly" compared to Mac OSX. That's just not what they're aiming for. Thank god, if you ask me.
Then his daughter told him to get rid of the PC and get a Mac. So he bought a G5 iMac. Of course everything seemed backwards to him, and he called me every couple of days asking how to do simple tasks. And then one day the phone calls stopped. He got it, and never has an issue now. The last call I got from him was how to transfer all the files from his iMac to his new Mac Book pro. I told him, plug in a Firewire cable and it's automatic. Makes a clone on the new Mac. Now he's happy as a clam, and never has a single issue with his Mac. I wish that was true of the PC using friends I have.
My friend's brand new Lenovo can't copy all his files from his old Dell without buying software from MS. They wouldn't even help him over the phone. And of course he was talking to someone in India. They told him to call Dell. They told him to call MS...
LOL, that. Yeah. It's a huge problem I hope will get settled. The volleyball game of responsibility between Microsoft and manufacturers. It's a huge annoyance. Though normally unless it's for an issue with activating Windows itself or something like that, you never need Microsoft. I'm glad I don't because honestly, calling Microsoft for a computer problem is never pleasant. On that aspect, I'm 100 % with you that they need to improve.
I've spent so many hours with these friends, and they are smart people, that I'll need to start charging them. lol
Dumb reason. You can use any mouse you want. I used a Microsoft two button mouse for many years. Then I use some nice wireless Logitech Laser Mice. Now I use a wireless trackpad. But I hardly use the mouse when working.
Yeah well I'm talking about my own experience with Macs, which is, at school, the "pure Apple experience"
I use the keyboard, or if I'm doing artwork, my Wacom tablet. And you know the current Mac mice have two buttons, you just can't see them.
I know they do. But unless you telegraph your move (for example by lifting the other finger) the detection of which button you pressed often fails. And I just don't like to be lifting my fingers. Once the hand is on the mouse, I put my two fingers on the two buttons and unless I need my fingers elsewhere they don't move, no matter what I press. Yeah, call me weird; most people seem to be lifting their fingers a lot. Now I don't know about the very latest Mac mice, but those we have at school are like that.
I've had to use a number of platforms at jobs... Macs, Windows, SGI IRIX, Sun Solaris, IBM AIX, etc. Notice that they are all UNix bvased except Windows.
I have a friend that uses Linux. He's always trying to get me to switch. All the things he said that are good about it, well the same things apply to OS X. My Mac never crashes. Except for system software installs I never reboot it. Applications never crash. The last one that went South on me was a prerelease version of Safari (I'm a Apple developers member), but thats to be expected.
That's true of most people trying to get anyone to switch to anything, actually. People keep telling me Macs don't crash, but they crash more than Windows to me. Pretty sure any advantage I can state about Windows can be contradicted in the same way. Truth is, nowadays, your OS matters less and less with each passing year.
So I say to my friend, "what happens if I want to run Photoshop, or Illustrator, or InDesign, or QuarkXPress, or MS Office, or ProTools, or Cubase?" I use these programs almost daily. He says... wait for it... "Oh, well if you need to run that kind of software... boot into Windows" LOLOLOLOL
Heh, Linux users like their OS and are willing to make efforts for it. Their thing.
So I had to point out I didn't need to do that. I have a Unix based OS that runs all the commercial software I need. If there are any instances of software that is not out for Macs, and I haven't run into much, I run it in Windows in VMWare Fusion. I don't play games on my Mac, except Tetrus. We have an XBox here, a Playstation, several Nintendo boxes. The kids play with all that.
Yep there are lots of versions of Linux. I've been using them since they first came out. I had MKLinux on my old Powermac 6100 in the 90s. I had RedHat for PowerPC CPUs on my old PowerComputing Mac clone. I also ran Be OS on that. That was a very nice operating system. Now I run, Haiku, which is an open source version of Be OS. It's much nicer than Linux or Windows.
It's good to know your way around on different operating systems. It's like driving two different cars. I might like one better, but I know how to drive the other one too. Microsoft is slowly losing its dominance in the marketplace. Just Apple's iPhone division is bigger than all of MS! And the iPhones and iPads run a stripped down version of OS X.
Actually, apparently, iPhones are in trouble recently. Also, I'm told the newest version of iOS differs a lot from what they've seen before. For all I know it looks better, heh. I've never liked the visual style that Apple generally favours in interfaces a lot. Never used it though.
I like to tell the story that in 2000 I was commuting daily from NJ to NYC. On the train I would see maybe one Apple laptop, as I walked from car to car looking for a seat. Now I see mostly Apple laptops, and an occasional PC laptop.
Yeah, for laptops, Macbook Pros are becoming super popular. Understandable, considering they have more physical quality than many (though not all) of their concurrents, and sturdy laptops are good when dropped. And they have a more advanced touchpad than most laptops too. Even Windows users like them. They'll of course use Windows on it, be it in parallel with Mac OS or only Windows, eh.
So that's like at least 10 I see every day on one train, and I didn't even walk the entire length. I've sat next to people programing software, connected to their job using VPN, editing music, video, writing, you name it.
Long story short, main reason I dislike Macs is that they're too simplified, too "controlling", too... Mac. A lot of what makes up the "Mac philosophy" is precisely what I dislike. Sometimes, people say Macs are user-friendly and intuitive... I believe them. Because to (almost?) all of my other classmates, Photoshop is intuitive, easy to use and it's by far their first choice for doing design. Me? I just don't understand it, I find every command is made to be precisely the opposite of what I would logically expect, and I really don't enjoy using it. I love Illustrator though. Which most of my classmates aren't fond of and actually struggle to use. So probably, whatever is supposed to be intuitive and user-friendly in Mac OS is designed precisely against what my unusual thinking patterns expect or think.
Phew. I hate to argue.
I agree with Violet. Success in life is a confidence game. I have not successfully transitioned but I think that philosophy will come into play. I think it might help to project, Hey this is me. I'm happy as I am. If you don't like me, that's OK. My happiness does not depend on your acceptance. I'm an individualist.
Quote from: Joules on October 05, 2013, 08:29:45 PM
START A NEW POST FOR THIS STUFF.
That's just too much to be so far off topic. Start a dedicated post, and ask a Mod to move all this computer stuff that is off topic to it.
Nah, I think I'm just gonna drop it. I've got my share of OS fights for the centuries to come.
I use both. At the same time. On the same machine. It's just software, peeps and both have their strengths and weaknesses. I'm a computer scientist and also have a associate's in Graphic design. I've done it all and there's no aspect of computing I haven't at least dug into enough to be more competent than anyone outside a seasoned professional (art, video, music, programming). There are annoying parts about every piece of software but, overall, I just want to get work done.
OS wars are akin to Car Brand wars are akin to Shoe Make wars are all alike in their adherence to intransigent ridiculousness as their modus operandi.