I came out to my wife two weeks ago and yesterday she finally came with me to see my therapist. After the meeting she was talking about divorce and said that she just couldn't be with a woman sexually.
I reminded her that everything will be slow and we will take baby steps, but she said she may not be able to see through the exterior. We still love each other, and she has said that we could continue to be best friends, but the sexual aspect is her hang up.
Has anyone run into this problem and come out the other side just fine? Am I looking at a bitter divorce?
Thanks
I totally feel for what you're going through. I did the same about 2 months ago. Everything is still up in the air, but divorce is almost definite between us. She refuses to even be thought of as married to a woman - and living in the same house is not something she'll be doing long term with me. I highly doubt she'll change from that, but I can get near her now... for over a month she didn't like to be in the same room as me and didn't want me touching her or her things (like folding the laundry was out). At a certain point that did change.
My wife also refused to learn more about it and come to my therapist. We went to hers recently and my wife was silent for most of that meeting. I addressed my concerns with her therapist, though... and my wife appears to have listened. The derirsion is gone, the communication has opened up, and if I could get over my current bout with dysphoria I'd try to help out more (I do most everything I used to... but I feel that it's not enough now).
She also knows that, regardless of where the two of us end up, we'll still be dealing with each other for life. We'll still be financially tied... we have 3 kids. My hope for the future is that she and I can become good friends, but that will require work on both our parts - and I'm not sure how willing she is or will be.
At 2 weeks it sounds like she's in a very good state compared to my situation. 2 weeks is very early and I wouldn't give up hope. Treat her well and she may come around! It's still early for us at 2+ months... grieving takes a long time and she may decide that a platonic or open relationship is enough... she may not. It's her decision.
Quote from: AZKatie on October 15, 2013, 11:21:13 AM
Has anyone run into this problem and come out the other side just fine? Am I looking at a bitter divorce?
Oh Katie, this is so hard. I was where you are about a year ago.
Sad to say, I know very few marriages that have survived a MtF transition, and none that managed to keep an intact sexual component.
Stay strong, sister.
We are not married, but, sadly, our relationship is not going to see this through :(. It is the same story - not being able to live with another woman, of her not being lesbian from one side and then saying that I am just making this all up and I am actually not a transgender etc. She liked him more than she likes me (I am not sure she likes me at all), so quite naturally she wants him to stay, which is not possible at this stage anymore :(. I know this is not bringing any hope or light for You, but...
Katie,
I guess I'm one of the lucky ones. So far so good, but as transitioning is not over for me, by a long way, I can only hope that things between me and my partner stay the same through the stages to come. Like everything with GD, transitioning etc., it's something to be taken day by day. My partner knows what is happening and what is to come and has been there with me every step of the way. For me, all is ok now, but the the thing is, I can't tell whether some minute change or a major change in my attitude or appearance in the coming months or years will lead to a strain on our marriage. All I can advise is to keep working HARD at your relationship. Things worth having take a lot of work, and sometimes compromise. When you come to the compromises, and you figure out that you can't for one reason or another, that's when you need to look deeply at the reality of continuing your relationship, for the sake of both of you. I can't see the best friends thing working out in this situation because she will end up hating you for what she has lost and you will hate yourself for what you have unavoidably lost.
No one here can give you any definite answers about how things will turn out, unfortunately, but what I and others can do it wish you all the best in the coming months and years and hope things work out between you and your wife.
I do know of others who have fully transitioned and remain happily married or in a relationship. I know of quite a few more whose marriage ended rapidly due to the fact that the wife/partner didn't sign up to be forcibly turned into being lesbian or bisexual.
Best of luck,
Nikki
Quote from: kabit on October 15, 2013, 11:30:09 AM
I totally feel for what you're going through. I did the same about 2 months ago. Everything is still up in the air, but divorce is almost definite between us. She refuses to even be thought of as married to a woman - and living in the same house is not something she'll be doing long term with me. I highly doubt she'll change from that, but I can get near her now... for over a month she didn't like to be in the same room as me and didn't want me touching her or her things (like folding the laundry was out). At a certain point that did change.
My wife also refused to learn more about it and come to my therapist. We went to hers recently and my wife was silent for most of that meeting. I addressed my concerns with her therapist, though... and my wife appears to have listened. The derirsion is gone, the communication has opened up, and if I could get over my current bout with dysphoria I'd try to help out more (I do most everything I used to... but I feel that it's not enough now).
She also knows that, regardless of where the two of us end up, we'll still be dealing with each other for life. We'll still be financially tied... we have 3 kids. My hope for the future is that she and I can become good friends, but that will require work on both our parts - and I'm not sure how willing she is or will be.
At 2 weeks it sounds like she's in a very good state compared to my situation. 2 weeks is very early and I wouldn't give up hope. Treat her well and she may come around! It's still early for us at 2+ months... grieving takes a long time and she may decide that a platonic or open relationship is enough... she may not. It's her decision.
I can relate to every word of that - even the number of kids!
My wife can't bear the thought of being in the same bed as me. She doesn't want to be under the same roof when I begin transition - she won't even tolerate even things like laser beard-removal, which aren't really detectable to the outside world. But on the other hand she doesn't want to get divorced.
So heaven knows how it will work out.
The one thing I would say is keep trying to make everything as peaceful and loving as you possibly can. There are times it's VERY difficult. Check out this thread if you want an example ...
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,150265.0.html
But the emotional and financial costs of a bitter divorce are so terrible that it really helps if you two can manage to end in a spirit of sadness, rather than bitterness, and affection rather than resentment.
It isn't easy. But then, when you're transsexual, what is?
Hi,
I have so far managed to get through many stages of my transition, HRT, FFS, beard removal, hair transplants, coming out to everyone who counts in my life, living openly as a woman and recently filing for a civil identity change with the acceptance (at first) and finally the support of my wife of 8.5 years.
However, I told her about my gender identity issues right at the beginning of our relationship. That, plus the fact that I have transitioned very slowly, first trial with HRT in 2008, upperface FFS and first significant coming out 3 years later..., no doubt helped massively.
However, not only has my transition not broken our relationship, it has actually brought us closer and I think I can confidently say we have as good a relationship as any couple I know, based on mutual trust and support. We also just have fun doing stuff any two women would do together like shopping, going out to concerts, ballets, restaurants etc.. together.
My wife is no doubt atypical and probably couldn't have handled a "regular" guy, (whatever that means :)), but I guess it is worth highlighting that people such as her exist. So, no matter what happens in your present couple, transitioning doesn't mean you will forcibly have to spend your life alone.
Wishing you all the best
Donna
I'm just going to say it because it needs to be said as many times as possible.
You can't expect your straight wives to want to stay with you should you transition. If they still want to be friends that's good and awesome but to expect them to want to continue to be in a partnered sexual relationship is selfish in it's own right.
I agree that for two weeks in, this is actually rather promising - she went with you to therapy, and she's at least willing to try. She may be more flexible sexually than she realizes, or she may conclude that sex isn't enough to throw away a priceless marriage over and try to compromise somehow.
At two weeks in, my wife basically couldn't stop crying and was suicidal. I fully transitioned within the year, and now more than four years later we're still very happily together. It can be done, although it does require that she be able to meet you halfway and willing to *keep* trying. Good luck.
(Suzi, now you know me. :) We're actually doing better in the bedroom than before! My wife was bisexual to begin with, admittedly. I know four other couples who stayed together through transition and remained sexually compatible, too. Two were with previously straight cis women, even. It's rare, and it's a hard road to walk, but we're out there.)
Quote from: Jenna Marie on October 15, 2013, 08:09:09 PM
I agree that for two weeks in, this is actually rather promising - she went with you to therapy, and she's at least willing to try. She may be more flexible sexually than she realizes, or she may conclude that sex isn't enough to throw away a priceless marriage over and try to compromise somehow.
At two weeks in, my wife basically couldn't stop crying and was suicidal. I fully transitioned within the year, and now more than four years later we're still very happily together. It can be done, although it does require that she be able to meet you halfway and willing to *keep* trying. Good luck.
(Suzi, now you know me. :) We're actually doing better in the bedroom than before! My wife was bisexual to begin with, admittedly. I know four other couples who stayed together through transition and remained sexually compatible, too. Two were with previously straight cis women, even. It's rare, and it's a hard road to walk, but we're out there.)
There's always hope for something... but don't get those hopes too high. You could get lucky... if not, denial is normal, but denial for too long is not good for the healing process.
The first month I was hopeful that we could stay together (in any way, shape, or form). The next couple weeks I was hopeful we could at least live in the same house. Now I'm just hopeful that we can end with mediation / amicably and be friends again. I was in serious denial for a while... now I'm over that and certainly grieving - though the grief is not as bad as it will be when it is truly over (I'm
guessing May/June when I add E - depends on her plans for the house).
Katie,
My wife was hung up on the sexual aspect too and I completely understand where she was coming from. If the situation was reversed and she was a FTM, I wouldn't want sex with her either. She used the "I'm not a lesbian" argument for several months after I came out. She finally became comfortable with the idea that we don't have to have sex to have a fulfilling relationship.
After that, things were good for a few months, still are, relatively. There are other problems in our marriage (partially due to my transition) that may lead to a divorce, though I think we'll end it as friends because we both still love/care for one another. My advice would be to give it time and try to make things work the best you can. Just don't ever expect to have a sex life with your wife ever again.
*HUGS*
Amy
At one point my wife told me, "I'd never leave you even if you needed to transition." A year and a half later, she said she wanted a divorce. Ours wasn't bitter, though. It wasn't easy either. Our kids were 19 and 21 at the time, so there weren't any custody issues to deal with, so that probably helped.
The sexual part was my wife's hangup, too.
Katie, I'm so sorry this is happening to you.
{{{{{HUGS}}}}}
Yep been there done that and even got the t shirt. I lost it in the settlement.
Hang in the best you can, make sure you have some finance put away if you need it. Also plan for the worst and hope for the best.
Anyone who is married and going to start this should have in there mind what plan b will be. It always does not happen bad but sometimes it gets real bad.
Hugs and keep yourself safe.
Izzy
My 25 year old marriage is teetering on the precipice right now. My wife is currently out of town on an extended trip and we communicate via email often. I haven't been quite as honest and open about my transition as I should have been (I never lied though) and last week it bit me. She finally got tired of the obscure references I was making and sent me a rather pointed email asking what my intentions are.
So I told her.
Wowza. Not good. Not good at all. I knew this day was eventually coming. I've been physically ill ever since I sent my email.
Now it's a week later and we communicate, barely. She hasn't responded to my email yet. I'll bet it's a real humdinger when she does.
I really can't blame her if she leaves. I broke her heart and mine with it. Shes 100% a southern girl and living with another woman just isn't what she signed up for. I'm just sitting around waiting for the other shoe to drop.
I finally know what it's like being on the front line of "hurricane trans". I also have a much better understanding of just how terrible the options are that we face being married and trans.
Quote from: MaidofOrleans on October 15, 2013, 02:13:44 PM
I'm just going to say it because it needs to be said as many times as possible.
You can't expect your straight wives to want to stay with you should you transition. If they still want to be friends that's good and awesome but to expect them to want to continue to be in a partnered sexual relationship is selfish in it's own right.
I agree 100%
What I'd like to know, and I hope I'm not stepping on toes with this, is why would anyone who is mtf get married prior to transitioning?
To me it seems like such a waste for everyone involved. I could never have dated a woman let alone got married to one and started a family knowing what I was. I understand being in denial or not accepting yourself, but to bring another innocent person into this kinda of situation is beyond my understanding. And then on top of it to expect a spouse to go along with everything in the end. I never hear anyone talk the pain these females are experiencing, only how tough things are for us after coming out to a wife. I mean it can't be easy waking up one day and your husband just decides to become a woman. After that I seriously can't blame them for being standoffish and detached.
I sure would like to know the reasoning some people here had before getting hitched.
In my case I got married at 26 and figured out the transsexual bit at 50. Whoops.
Quote from: Janae on October 15, 2013, 11:31:08 PM
What I'd like to know, and I hope I'm not stepping on toes with this, is why would anyone who is mtf get married prior to transitioning?
To me it seems like such a waste for everyone involved. I could never have dated a woman let alone got married to one and started a family knowing what I was. I understand being in denial or not accepting yourself, but to bring another innocent person into this kinda of situation is beyond my understanding. And then on top of it to expect a spouse to go along with everything in the end. I never hear anyone talk the pain these females are experiencing, only how tough things are for us after coming out to a wife. I mean it can't be easy waking up one day and your husband just decides to become a woman. After that I seriously can't blame them for being standoffish and detached.
I sure would like to know the reasoning some people here had before getting hitched.
I think its because they want to live a normal life and they really think they push these feelings aside. I do see the wife's point of view more I'll admit because I know I couldn't handle that situation. But I do understand the pain the person transitioning is going through because I've seen what it's like for someone to have to go through a divorce like this and they suffer too. I don't think anybody would intentionally do this too a spouse and most hope that these feelings will just go away.
Quote from: Janae on October 15, 2013, 11:31:08 PM
What I'd like to know, and I hope I'm not stepping on toes with this, is why would anyone who is mtf get married prior to transitioning?
To me it seems like such a waste for everyone involved. I could never have dated a woman let alone got married to one and started a family knowing what I was. I understand being in denial or not accepting yourself, but to bring another innocent person into this kinda of situation is beyond my understanding. And then on top of it to expect a spouse to go along with everything in the end. I never hear anyone talk the pain these females are experiencing, only how tough things are for us after coming out to a wife. I mean it can't be easy waking up one day and your husband just decides to become a woman. After that I seriously can't blame them for being standoffish and detached.
I sure would like to know the reasoning some people here had before getting hitched.
It's actually quite simple. It's because we are in love... We want to love and be loved just like any other person. We want to feel deserving and we want to cherish this person who for some reason in our hearts makes the constant pain we carry fade away into the joy we feel for being with them... In our hearts, all people want to be loved more than anything else and we pray that those who we fall in love with will see us for who we are or the best we can be as we reciprocate in kind.
I have less than a week to my first HRT session and I have been married for less than a year... I was engaged to my wife for nearly ten years before that though. Before we were engaged she asked me if I would ever cheat on her. I replied I would sooner get a sex change rather than cheat on her... She laughed and I did too, but the strain was too much and I told her about my repressed gender issues. I told her everything and she chalked it up to childhood experimentation, "I'm sure every little boy has done things like that, but you have the courage and honesty to admit to it". In my heart I wanted to believe her and I think I truly convinced myself. All my repressed emotions started to seep out from me slowly as my love for her grew.
I cannot speak for anyone else here, but I'm looking forward to my first appointment as the opportunity to love my wife as I truly feel inside. As my TRUE self rather than the construct built to conform to the wishes of my family. I also have incredible fear that she will be repulsed by who I am. I pray that she can accept it and so does she. The only thing I want more than to transition is to have her love in my life, and if it means I die as her man (although it makes me weep to think it), then so be it. I'm hoping love finds a way. I would love to dive into the pools of Sappho with her, but if she is afraid of the water then I will walk by the water's edge, hand in hand. As long as I have her warm embrace, I will endure.
That's why I got married even though I suspected I was transgender. I suspect there are more stories out there of a similar vein. Some of them have to have a happy ending!
Quote from: MaidofOrleans on October 15, 2013, 02:13:44 PM
I'm just going to say it because it needs to be said as many times as possible.
You can't expect your straight wives to want to stay with you should you transition. If they still want to be friends that's good and awesome but to expect them to want to continue to be in a partnered sexual relationship is selfish in it's own right.
Yup.
I'm also gonna add that if I was dating / married to a guy and he told me he was trans, it would be over that minute. It would be a totally "No hard feelings" deal, but it would take me a while to even talk to him .... her again because it would take a long time for me to see past the past.
But if you want my advice, don't take her for granted - ever. She is a human being and has wants and needs too, and they may be something you just don't want to fulfill anymore. However, you made a vow and she did marry you believing she married a man. Keep that in mind every second you're with her if you want it to work out, because that's what she's going to be thinking.
Good luck.
Quotewhy would anyone who is mtf get married prior to transitioning?
Janae,
You make it sound like "mtf" is some sort of cut-and-dried determination, which it's certainly not. I always thought of myself as a "happy crossdresser" and told my wife about it very early in our relationship (before we got married, because I always thought it would be impossible to build a solid relationship without coming clean about something so significant).
When my feelings changed at age 47, after 10 years of marriage and two kids, I was shocked and scared. It wasn't that I withheld anything or denied anything. I
changed, plain and simple. It snuck up on me, and there's at least some indication that the natural reduction in my testosterone due to age may have been partly responsible. But the "why" didn't matter because, well, there it was, plain as day. And I had to deal with it. So I told her what was going on and got myself into therapy. (She finds it a very difficult thing to deal with, as you might expect.)
I got married because I fell in love. We had kids because we were in love. And the prospect of transition is a complication that no one -- least of all me -- anticipated or wanted. But it doesn't change the love part.
As such, I've already made a decision that I won't transition unless our relationship can survive. I'm lucky in that transition isn't a matter of life and death to me. I'm functional as a man, despite feeling like I could be significantly more functional as a transwoman. And though I'm hoping she will ultimately be accepting (which is not out of the question; she has done substantial advocacy work for the LGBT community), I'm prepared for the possibility that it just won't happen. I love her and my family enough to honor the commitment I made, something I'm fortunate to be able to do.
But my point to you is that everyone's trajectory is different. People change. Circumstances change. Feelings change.
It would be great if it were as simple as, "If you're MTF, don't get married." But it's just not.
Lora
Quote from: Alainaluvsu on October 16, 2013, 12:42:13 AM
I'm also gonna add that if I was dating / married to a guy and he told me he was trans, it would be over that minute. It would be a totally "No hard feelings" deal, but it would take me a while to even talk to him .... her again because it would take a long time for me to see past the past.
I completely agree I couldn't handle being in a lesbian relationship. I do kinda wonder if their wife's came out and told them they were men how many would be all happy about that?
Quote from: Yukari-sensei on October 16, 2013, 12:30:41 AM
It's actually quite simple. It's because we are in love... We want to love and be loved just like any other person. We want to feel deserving and we want to cherish this person who for some reason in our hearts makes the constant pain we carry fade away into the joy we feel for being with them... In our hearts, all people want to be loved more than anything else and we pray that those who we fall in love with will see us for who we are or the best we can be as we reciprocate in kind.
I have less than a week to my first HRT session and I have been married for less than a year... I was engaged to my wife for nearly ten years before that though. Before we were engaged she asked me if I would ever cheat on her. I replied I would sooner get a sex change rather than cheat on her... She laughed and I did too, but the strain was too much and I told her about my repressed gender issues. I told her everything and she chalked it up to childhood experimentation, "I'm sure every little boy has done things like that, but you have the courage and honesty to admit to it". In my heart I wanted to believe her and I think I truly convinced myself. All my repressed emotions started to seep out from me slowly as my love for her grew.
I cannot speak for anyone else here, but I'm looking forward to my first appointment as the opportunity to love my wife as I truly feel inside. As my TRUE self rather than the construct built to conform to the wishes of my family. I also have incredible fear that she will be repulsed by who I am. I pray that she can accept it and so does she. The only thing I want more than to transition is to have her love in my life, and if it means I die as her man (although it makes me weep to think it), then so be it. I'm hoping love finds a way. I would love to dive into the pools of Sappho with her, but if she is afraid of the water then I will walk by the water's edge, hand in hand. As long as I have her warm embrace, I will endure.
That's why I got married even though I suspected I was transgender. I suspect there are more stories out there of a similar vein. Some of them have to have a happy ending!
Thanks for the reply. It's always good to get insight from someone who's living this.
I understand wanting to be loved, we all do, I just don't understand getting married knowing your trans and the potential issues this could cause latter. I've always had boyfriends so my being trans prior to transitioning never stopped me from having/findding a love life. I'm wondering if there were specific factors that led you to getting married. Did you go into this because of societal & family pressure? I'm assuming this is a major reason why people do this. Are you lesbian? I ask because you had to be attracted to your wife to marry her. Will you date men after you transition?
I always knew I was different before I even knew I was trans. Even as a teenager going through the pain I was feeling. I consider myself a heterosexual. I dated men as a guy and now that I'm transitioning. I never looked at females as anything but potential friends. So the possibility of getting married to a female in my case is laughable. I waited till I was 29 to start to fully transition after starting at 16. Most of the girls I know/knew growing up all started transitioning as teens. Maybe it's a generational thing. Growing up I didn't know a single girl who latter married a female and had kids and I still don't. That kind of situation is foreign to me even though I knew it existed/exists. It's just not a common thing in the community I was in growing up.
I hope you find peace and that your situation works out in the end.
Quote from: translora on October 16, 2013, 12:59:16 AM
Janae,
You make it sound like "mtf" is some sort of cut-and-dried determination, which it's certainly not. I always thought of myself as a "happy crossdresser" and told my wife about it very early in our relationship (before we got married, because I always thought it would be impossible to build a solid relationship without coming clean about something so significant).
When my feelings changed at age 47, after 10 years of marriage and two kids, I was shocked and scared. It wasn't that I withheld anything or denied anything. I changed, plain and simple. It snuck up on me, and there's at least some indication that the natural reduction in my testosterone due to age may have been partly responsible. But the "why" didn't matter because, well, there it was, plain as day. And I had to deal with it. So I told her what was going on and got myself into therapy. (She finds it a very difficult thing to deal with, as you might expect.)
I got married because I fell in love. We had kids because we were in love. And the prospect of transition is a complication that no one -- least of all me -- anticipated or wanted. But it doesn't change the love part.
As such, I've already made a decision that I won't transition unless our relationship can survive. I'm lucky in that transition isn't a matter of life and death to me. I'm functional as a man, despite feeling like I could be significantly more functional as a transwoman. And though I'm hoping she will ultimately be accepting (which is not out of the question; she has done substantial advocacy work for the LGBT community), I'm prepared for the possibility that it just won't happen. I love her and my family enough to honor the commitment I made, something I'm fortunate to be able to do.
But my point to you is that everyone's trajectory is different. People change. Circumstances change. Feelings change.
It would be great if it were as simple as, "If you're MTF, don't get married." But it's just not.
Lora
Lora
I'm not trying to make it sound like anything other than what it is. In your case you cross-dressed and latter came to terms that you were in fact trans. That I understand. And your wife was well aware of your cross-dressing before marriage. So with that I can see your wife at least having been forewarned before saying I do. This to me is much different than a wife having no clue only to wake up one day with a husband who expresses he's trans. I also understand it's not as simple as "If you're MTF, don't get married." I just don't get bringing someone, uninformed, into a potentially heartbreaking situation down the line.
I'm not sure of your sexual orientation but in a way I think it matters in these situations. I was never attracted to females so marrying one was never a possibility for me, and even if I was I'd never even go there knowing the feelings I was having. Again in your case your wife had a clue somewhat so I'm sure coming out as trans wasn't to much of a shock for her. I just think about the wives who have no clue. The ones who get married to what they assume is a heterosexual man, and not a potential lesbian transwoman. I'm sure anyone can see where the issue arises. So when this topic comes up and I read about the hurt feelings,the pain, divorce or possible divorce, I just wonder if it was worth it for those who knew they were trans or had trans-related feelings prior to getting married.
Quote from: Janae on October 16, 2013, 01:28:21 AM
Lora
I'm not trying to make it sound like anything other than what it is. In your case you cross-dressed and latter came to terms that you were in fact trans. That I understand. And your wife was well aware of your cross-dressing before marriage. So with that I can see your wife at least having been forewarned before saying I do. This to me is much different than a wife having no clue only to wake up one day with a husband who expresses he's trans. I also understand it's not as simple as "If you're MTF, don't get married." I just don't get bringing someone, uninformed, into a potentially heartbreaking situation down the line.
I'm not sure of your sexual orientation but in a way I think it matters in these situations. I was never attracted to females so marrying one was never a possibility for me, and even if I was I'd never even go there knowing the feelings I was having. Again in your case your wife had a clue somewhat so I'm sure coming out as trans wasn't to much of a shock for her. I just think about the wives who have no clue. The ones who get married to what they assume is a heterosexual man, and not a potential lesbian transwoman. I'm sure anyone can see where the issue arises. So when this topic comes up and I read about the hurt feelings,the pain, divorce or possible divorce, I just wonder if it was worth it for those who knew they were trans or had trans-related feelings prior to getting married.
There is also a desire in many 'men' to hope that acting like a man, either through marriage, taking on ultra-masculine jobs, sports etc will 'cure' them.
I have heard from a therapist that he gets transwomen presenting to him and saying 'please cure me, make me a man', unfortunately for them the cure is to aid them to be the woman that they are.
Denial is often our first port of call.
Quote from: Heather on October 16, 2013, 12:02:27 AM
I think its because they want to live a normal life and they really think they push these feelings aside. I do see the wife's point of view more I'll admit because I know I couldn't handle that situation. But I do understand the pain the person transitioning is going through because I've seen what it's like for someone to have to go through a divorce like this and they suffer too. I don't think anybody would intentionally do this too a spouse and most hope that these feelings will just go away.
Thanks for responding.
I think it's possible to have a normal life without bringing someone into a potentially heartbreaking situation. There's nothing wrong with having these feelings and having a relationship. It happens all the time, But I don't think getting married helps anyone in the end, least of all the wives.
I do agree that I don't think any of this is intentional, I don't think anyone's that cruel.
Quote from: Cindy on October 16, 2013, 01:37:18 AM
There is also a desire in many 'men' to hope that acting like a man, either through marriage, taking on ultra-masculine jobs, sports etc will 'cure' them.
I have heard from a therapist that he gets transwomen presenting to him and saying 'please cure me, make me a man', unfortunately for them the cure is to aid them to be the woman that they are.
Denial is often our first port of call.
This. Some women join the military, some become husbands, some just stay confused and alone for years.
I never lied to my wife in our 10 years of marriage. I lied to myself, which affected her by extension. It took her a long time to understand that.
Quote from: Janae on October 16, 2013, 01:09:02 AM
Thanks for the reply. It's always good to get insight from someone who's living this.
I understand wanting to be loved, we all do, I just don't understand getting married knowing your trans and the potential issues this could cause latter. I've always had boyfriends so my being trans prior to transitioning never stopped me from having/findding a love life. I'm wondering if there were specific factors that led you to getting married. Did you go into this because of societal & family pressure? I'm assuming this is a major reason why people do this. Are you lesbian? I ask because you had to be attracted to your wife to marry her. Will you date men after you transition?
I always knew I was different before I even knew I was trans. Even as a teenager going through the pain I was feeling. I consider myself a heterosexual. I dated men as a guy and now that I'm transitioning. I never looked at females as anything but potential friends. So the possibility of getting married to a female in my case is laughable. I waited till I was 29 to start to fully transition after starting at 16. Most of the girls I know/knew growing up all started transitioning as teens. Maybe it's a generational thing. Growing up I didn't know a single girl who latter married a female and had kids and I still don't. That kind of situation is foreign to me even though I knew it existed/exists. It's just not a common thing in the community I was in growing up.
I hope you find peace and that your situation works out in the end.
Thank you and I thank you for the opportunity to share. I have so much fear for the future; but, a great deal of hope!
As to childhood, I knew that I felt different, but couldn't quite understand why. I wanted to play football to make my uncles happy, but I always wanted to be a nurturer and a protector. It was all so confusing... I remember dropping pennies into every wishing well or the sink drain if no wishing well could be found, and wish God would make me a girl. When I figured out God doesn't work that way anymore, I prayed he would take away my feelings. Still I never had any attraction for a boy, I always wanted to be married to a girl, but I also wanted to be a mother. When I saw my aunt get married I wondered why I could not marry a girl and be a bride too. I could never understand why and cautious questions seemed to just raise eyebrows, so I just turned to books to run from my questions.
Puberty was especially cruel as I hated what was happening to me, yet hoped in the end it would make me more attractive to women. The clothes I secretly had hidden and the makeup started to look less like a girl trying to be a woman and more like a man in drag. I did not know what a lesbian was then, I lived in a rural backwater in Texas! The idea of loving women and yet feeling like one on the inside seemed ridiculous on the one hand; however, it was of no consequence, I was being drafted into masculinity anyway.
My mother was being abused by my father back then and I had to step in to be the protector. I exchanged blows with my father to clarify hitting a woman was not without consequence. When he eventually left, my mother was reduced to panic attacks and wailing in a fetal position on the floor. I had to be the rock of my family. I feared for my little sister and the absence of a strong male role model... I conformed to expectations, I was to try to be a hidalgo, a great Latino gentleman, who I modeled on my grandfather with a bit of Frasier Crane thrown in (I liked Frasier, what can I say).
In some people's eyes, I did this too well and the shock at my revelation has been heartbreaking. My mother gave me a picture of myself with my grandfather and keeps asking, "
what would he think! you were his little mijito!" My friends on the other hand saw through the cracks and this seems to be the elusive explanation of many unexplained idiosyncrasies too numerous to go into detail here. I was shocked at the number of "well that explains it!" I've received from friends.
As to a future of dating men... That would imply my marriage had failed first. I love my wife and as stated previously I have never been attracted to a man. If I were a widow or heaven forbid divorced (and I would stop transitioning if I had to to keep her), I could not rule it out.
But I sure would not be looking for it... I firmly believe that while we all have a propensity to prefer one gender more than the other (even bi people seldom have even dating ratios), love strikes us in ways we never expect or know. If two hearts open up to each other and it's not from the gender you expect, why lament it? I guess that qualifies me as an lesbian with an overly developed sense of the romantic. I can live with that. :laugh:
Life is not something we can totally plan at any age really. How many of us really knew all our life that we were transgender and that we were going to successfully transition? I am looking forward to our 39th wedding anniversary this November. While permanence is an illusion, relationships need not be bound by the common paradigms of this temporary culture. Make your own marriage about your ideals and needs and let the good times roll. With a bisexual orientation it is easy for me to love the person more than the gender or sex. Yes, if my wife was FtM i'd stay too. Don't fall for the binary trap. There are plenty of women that are masculine and guys that are very feminine. They aren't all transgender folks. Ever masturbate? Was that a mans hand on your penis then?
We have allowed ourselves maximum freedoms to learn and grow and be the best we can be. If we love someone doesn't it follow that we want the best for them , even if it is not us all the time?
Any significant long term relationship takes effort and isn't the depth of your love worth it? Mine is and I will continue to cherish every loving day we have had together. When we part, and that's a certainty unless we die together, we will still have loving memories and deep family connections that include our children, grandchildren, great grandson and a great circle of friends.
Yup, life comes with curves, earthquakes, floods and fires. A solid partnership can successfully endure them all. I fully enjoy now being a wife to my wife. I also understand that most people won't think our lifestyle is the way for them. Freedom is having the ability to choose. What do you want in a LTR?
Quote from: Cindy on October 16, 2013, 01:37:18 AM
There is also a desire in many 'men' to hope that acting like a man, either through marriage, taking on ultra-masculine jobs, sports etc will 'cure' them.
I have heard from a therapist that he gets transwomen presenting to him and saying 'please cure me, make me a man', unfortunately for them the cure is to aid them to be the woman that they are.
Denial is often our first port of call.
That is so true. And for those of us who first confronted these issues 30 or even 40 years ago you also have to bear in mind how very different things were then. One shrink after another told me that my dysphoria was just a fantasy and encouraged me to lead a conventional male life. So I believed them ... I thought dysphoria was something that only hit me when I was depressed. It took me, literally, decades to accept that the dysphoria was the cause of the depression. I'd put the cart before the horse.
Plus, I had always had girlfriends, not boyfriends, so I knew I was capable of loving and making love to woman - although the latter was often very problematic. And I loved my wife and longed to have a proper family, having come from a very dysfunctional childhood myself.
Plus, the choice between having a successful male life - a great job, money, social acceptance, a family - and life as a 'weirdo' transsexual (I'm using words that would have been used back then) was so stark ...
Plus, I actually could function socially and professionally as a man. I wasn't the kind of boy who has never ever felt like, or acted like anything but a girl. No one suspected anything ... And I thought to myself (still do sometimes): well, I have a very rational, ultra-'male' way of thinking; I love sports; I'm definitely a father to my children, maybe I'm supposed to stay this way.
All in all, there was huge internal and external pressure on me to be the man I had apparently been born, raised and educated to be. So I went with it and did my absolute level best to be a good husband and father. It is the greatest tragedy of my life that I simply can't carry on doing it any longer.
And to Maid of Orleans comment that: You can't expect your straight wives to want to stay with you should you transition. If they still want to be friends that's good and awesome but to expect them to want to continue to be in a partnered sexual relationship is selfish in it's own right.'
... I would say, yes, you're absolutely right that one can't expect that. Nor do I expect it. But that does not mean to say that a long-term, loving marriage can't be redefined in a new way. Each couple has to find its own way through this. many split. Some stay together, albeit in a very altered state.
But if there's one thing I know about being TS, it's that there's no absolute right or wrong about any of this; no answer or explanation that fits us all; no bold statement that applies to all circumstances ...
Except, perhaps, this: love is what matters. If that can be cherished and nurtured, and if it can survive all the terrible problems that dysphoria leaves in its wake, then anything is possible ...
Carlita you nailed it again. Well said girl! I never even heard the word transgender growing up and all gay people lived in NYC or SF. I went to a psychologist back in 82 and told him I did not feel like a man. He tried to convince me I was just in a phase of becoming more gay and that being Bi is a myth. Ha ha ha, this phase seems life long so far.
Yes indeed love will and can find a way............music starts
My wife to this day swears that she knew about me wanting to transition before me. She has been asking me our whole relationship cause she knew about my cross-dressing and my behaviour. Although it didn't make it easier when it happened. She has still taken it rather hard and is bipolar about it.
She swears that she loves me for me no matter what and will love me as a woman as much as she loves me now. But only time can tell
Quote from: Tessa James on October 16, 2013, 03:39:55 AM
Carlita you nailed it again. Well said girl! I never even heard the word transgender growing up and all gay people lived in NYC or SF. I went to a psychologist back in 82 and told him I did not feel like a man. He tried to convince me I was just in a phase of becoming more gay and that being Bi is a myth. Ha ha ha, this phase seems life long so far.
Yes indeed love will and can find a way............music starts
Thanks, hon! And let the music play!
My wife and I are still shooting through that cosmic worm hole dealing with my taking on the trans beast. From my experience and from others here I can certainly say two weeks is hardly no time at all to give up hope. At the same time, two weeks is more than enough time to sink your ship.
THe number one No-No seems to be taking on the attitude of "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead" after dropping the T-Bomb. Understandable given the sense of relief, even joy, of actually finally getting telling your SO. Yet not wide when you consider how you spent years, perhaps decades comming to grips with it so how can you expect someone without a clue to get a handle on it.
The corollary is Baby Steps. Take it slow and easy
A big relationship saver is plenty of open honest communication. Though talking, especially over such deep emotional subjects, does not come easy to me I just knew I needed to, even if my wife, "The Yacker", never brought things up. Just be careful in gauging the TMI point. (re above too much, too fast)
It has been 4 years now, made all the more difficult dealing with a long distance relationship since I was working far out of state, and especially me being unsure of what I need and want to do ultimately do. Yet, seeing the results of my personal growth I've undergone as I travel along this road of self discovery has made me far better person and strengthened our love and relationship.
Sure, this has cost us gallons of tears and plenty of angst. So far it's been worth the trip. I am constantly on guard to avoid slipping back into the lifeles, soulless, joyless, machine I had grown into while avoiding even burying a portion of my true self
Quote from: JoanneB on October 16, 2013, 05:30:55 AM
A big relationship saver is plenty of open honest communication. Though talking, especially over such deep emotional subjects, does not come easy to me I just knew I needed to, even if my wife, "The Yacker", never brought things up. Just be careful in gauging the TMI point. (re above too much, too fast)
This is exactly where we went wrong, and are just starting to come up to speed. My wife went silent from day one... for about 2 months. The only way I could get her to talk about anything was by getting so frustrated that I said something stupid (online) for her to take the wrong way. Being an open communicator talking to a brick wall leads to TMI really quickly... and I'm surrounded by brick walls in most of those who know. I really don't know how to judge what is TMI when people won't talk to me. . . and I talk too much.
Lack of communication is the big problem, though. Not just juding TMI, but being talked about behind my back. I can't tell one person something without everyone knowing, it seems (and as my wife has pointed out). I told my name to just my 3 supporters and my wife was mad at me for "lying" to her therapist when she asked if I'm using another name at home (I hesitated and said no... and it's not a lie). It all comes down to... if you don't want to know, let me know that. If you're angry when I hold information back, I will be free with the information in the future.
Yeah... I'm doing it wrong. I just don't see any other way to do it. I'm contemplating staying silent, but that hasn't worked in the past either.
For me, I had some feelings every now and then my entire life but I always repressed them. I didn't even remember having them until I came out to myself. I spent over 31 years believing that I was a heterosexual male. I've been with my wife for 16 years now (married for 14). We got married because we loved each other and we had kids because we loved each other. If I had consciously known that I was trans, things would have been different but I didn't know.
Truth be told, I did expect my wife to want to stay married to me after coming out to her but I didn't expect sex anymore. She's 100% straight, why would I? On the flip side, if she was a trans man and I was a heterosexual male, I'd still want to stay with her but there would be no sex with that either because I've never liked guys. I completely understand not wanting to have sex but marriage isn't all about sex or shouldn't be. It's about loving/supporting the other person and building a life together.
Right now, we're both committed to making our marriage work because we love each other. The problems we have right now is that I'm too "girly" (mostly about what I like to talk about) for her and she's emotionally too "manly" (not emotionally supportive of me, which has always been a problem) for me. So if my marriage ends, it's not really due to my transition anyways, for the most part.
Amy
I'm odd, I guess, because I genuinely believe that I *was* a boy and then a man... for a while. I can look back and see hints, but I'll never know now how much of that is influenced by the way I feel now and the temptation to search for "proof" in my past. Regardless, I lived happily as a cis male for many years. I wasn't lying to anybody, including myself.
And then, as someone else said, I changed. It happens. I never made a conscious choice to marry despite knowing I was trans; I got married as a man, and realized after 9 years of marriage that NOW I needed to transition. I've been very fortunate that my wife was willing to make the journey through transition along with me. (I am also bisexual, so while I'm sure it'd be stressful and sometimes weird if she transitioned, I'd stand by her too. In fact, my gender issues have led to her figuring out that she's non-binary, and I've supported and encouraged her in that.) I honestly suspect that one reason my marriage survived is that we've been together so long - we first met when we were 15 - that my wife had all the clues in the past that I did, and yet neither of us had any idea that this was my life's trajectory. She didn't feel deceived or betrayed.
Kabit : I'm sorry that things have gone so terribly wrong for you. It sounds heartbreaking. (I assume you aren't suggesting that I'm in denial now, though?) If your wife is unwilling or unable to work on your marriage, there isn't much you can do by yourself... and "unwilling" includes refusing to communicate, which has to be a nightmare for you.
Quote from: Jenna Marie on October 16, 2013, 08:29:30 AM
I'm odd, I guess, because I genuinely believe that I *was* a boy and then a man... for a while. I can look back and see hints, but I'll never know now how much of that is influenced by the way I feel now and the temptation to search for "proof" in my past. Regardless, I lived happily as a cis male for many years. I wasn't lying to anybody, including myself.
And then, as someone else said, I changed. It happens. I never made a conscious choice to marry despite knowing I was trans; I got married as a man, and realized after 9 years of marriage that NOW I needed to transition. I've been very fortunate that my wife was willing to make the journey through transition along with me. (I am also bisexual, so while I'm sure it'd be stressful and sometimes weird if she transitioned, I'd stand by her too. In fact, my gender issues have led to her figuring out that she's non-binary, and I've supported and encouraged her in that.) I honestly suspect that one reason my marriage survived is that we've been together so long - we first met when we were 15 - that my wife had all the clues in the past that I did, and yet neither of us had any idea that this was my life's trajectory. She didn't feel deceived or betrayed.
Kabit : I'm sorry that things have gone so terribly wrong for you. It sounds heartbreaking. (I assume you aren't suggesting that I'm in denial now, though?) If your wife is unwilling or unable to work on your marriage, there isn't much you can do by yourself... and "unwilling" includes refusing to communicate, which has to be a nightmare for you.
No, no... I'm not saying anyone is in denial... just saying to watch out for it... since it's a good possibility for us as well as them. I think it's overlooked that we can grieve over our loss too. We have something bigger going on and are "prepared" to take losses, but nothing really prepares you for it.
It has been painful... and it's getting better. It seems like people are pussyfooting around me when I'd rather just address their concerns directly. In fact, only my mother has been straight with me - and that's painful, stressful, and includes lots of emotion (anger, sadness, happiness, the full range)... but it gets somewhere. Saying nothing, ignoring the problem, or plotting behind my back is dangerous and worse than direct confrontation.
Quote from: Jenna Marie on October 16, 2013, 08:29:30 AM
I'm odd, I guess, because I genuinely believe that I *was* a boy and then a man... for a while. I can look back and see hints, but I'll never know now how much of that is influenced by the way I feel now and the temptation to search for "proof" in my past. Regardless, I lived happily as a cis male for many years. I wasn't lying to anybody, including myself.
And then, as someone else said, I changed. It happens. I never made a conscious choice to marry despite knowing I was trans; I got married as a man, and realized after 9 years of marriage that NOW I needed to transition.
This is me. I felt like a male my whole life (but one who didn't like the role and wished he could become female).
My wife knew what kind of person I was and accepted me then. Unfortunately when I began to realize I was transgender, she slowly stopped accepting me. She told me recently during one of the divorce proceedings that she feels betrayed.
Quote from: MaidofOrleans on October 15, 2013, 02:13:44 PM
I'm just going to say it because it needs to be said as many times as possible.
You can't expect your straight wives to want to stay with you should you transition. If they still want to be friends that's good and awesome but to expect them to want to continue to be in a partnered sexual relationship is selfish in it's own right.
So true! Fortunetley my 23 year marriage ended well before I started transitioning, however, I started dating a woman after starting HRT and recently we broke up after she said "I don't want to date a woman." I followed with, "Neither do I." We laughed and are now friends.
I've got an answer to Janea after this. So to Katie, the OP.
My wife went to one therapy session last November and refused to go back again. She almost lost her job because of the preoccupation with our marriage, and ended up on a years probation. We've lived apart for the last six months and that rekindled a friendship that was lost, but we haven't been tender and loving for more than 20 years so I guess friendship is good enough. We're going to be living in the same house for the next three months and I'm sure she'll decide during that time what will happen with me. It's her decision to send me out the door, or have me stay. In the meantime there's a separate room for me both here and in California. (my sons old rooms)
Now:
Quote from: Janae on October 15, 2013, 11:31:08 PM
What I'd like to know, and I hope I'm not stepping on toes with this, is why would anyone who is mtf get married prior to transitioning?
Janae: Even if there's already been a lot of answers to your question I'll toss in my two cents. But I'll give you a hug first because you're young and have so much to look forward to in this paradigm where you can find wonderful love and acceptance. Yeah, I'm very envious.
So, the simple answer is - because "We fell in love."
The long answer is - We grew up in the 50's, 60's and 70's. There was no resource for being trans, and no one talked about it other than to debase and humiliate anyone like us. Trans individuals were considered queers, ->-bleeped-<-gots, deviants, or child molesters. I was only beaten up a couple times, and suffered only one forced sexual act (rape) but others went through much more torture, and at times it's a wonder any of us survived. So we learned to live in society for self protection, and we had to find a social group that provided some acceptance of our weird body language and speech patterns. It was either a conscious decision or something that just came to us. So we lived our lives as born, and hid everything inside or in closets. We had no choice, and yet at some point we found someone to fall in love with.
Hugs again hon. K
Quote from: kathyk on October 16, 2013, 09:33:50 AM
The long answer is - We grew up in the 50's, 60's and 70's.
Don't leave out the 80s! Unless you meant "born in." I was born in '78, but I grew up in the 80s & 90s... things were only a bit better for gay kids (and I had two HS friends who came out gay in college) and hardly at all better for trans kids. The bullies then were worse than they are now (and I think that's saying something)!
I don't think transgender kids have really had it "better" (not good, but much better) until very recently - the last 10 years at best. (The last 20-25 years by birth).
Janae,
QuoteIn your case you cross-dressed and latter came to terms that you were in fact trans.
Not quite. I've experienced gender discomfort all of my life, but I never identified with people who felt like they were somehow in the wrong type of body. (Actually, I
still don't identify with that feeling at all.) This may be hard to understand given what you are describing for yourself, but I have lived a very normal and comfortable life as a man. I'm fully functional, not suicidal, not socially limited or anything. I've never gone off the hyper-masculine deep end, or felt anything close to it. I've always experienced a sort of general dis-ease with my masculinity, but nothing more -- until now.
In other words, as is often the case when two trans people exchange experiences, mine was
very different from yours.
What happened to me is that my feelings
changed -- in a big way, and over a relatively short period of time. I've asked myself if I was just in denial all those years, and who knows? Maybe. But I didn't think so then and I don't think so now. I think that I got the benefit of age, and my point of view changed. It has happened with other things as well. (You'll have to trust me on this, but the world looks
very different the minute you become a parent.)
QuoteI'm not sure of your sexual orientation but in a way I think it matters in these situations.
Straight. Forever. Without the single slightest attraction to, or experience with, men. Not even in fantasy. And this I'm relatively certain was not due to any sort of denial.
But "straight" to me means the same as "balanced". As a man, the feminine provides balance for me. Were I to transition, I suspect that I would stay straight -- which is to say that, as a woman, it's the masculine which would then provide balance. I can't know this for sure, but I'm trying to be honest with myself and preparing for that possibility should I ever get to that point of transition. But, you never know until you get there.
QuoteAgain in your case your wife had a clue somewhat so I'm sure coming out as trans wasn't to much of a shock for her.
Even with a history as a cross-dresser, the shift to trans was a huge shock for both of us, one we are still processing.
QuoteI just wonder if it was worth it for those who knew they were trans or had trans-related feelings prior to getting married.
I wouldn't trade my marriage for anything, and I won't. I would be a lesser person if I had not experienced what I have, both in terms of the relationship and the children. I believe that my wife feels the same way, despite some nervousness about what the future holds.
And though this isn't really the direction I ever expected my life to go, I don't think I'd go back and change it even if I could. You have to play the cards you're dealt.
Lora
Let me make a quick plug for my early trans-awareness.
I first looked up the word "->-bleeped-<-" in a dictionary around 1973 (born in '63). It pretty much described what I was experiencing.
I became aware of Christine Jorgenson about the same time, along with the possibility of "sex change surgery". It didn't really fit how I felt, but I knew it existed.
The Phil Donahue Show first covered "transsexuals and ->-bleeped-<-s" in the mid-1970s somewhere, and that's the vehicle by which the subject entered the national consciousness. By then, I already knew a whole lot about the subject, but I was transfixed (if you'll pardon the expression) by his guests. Still, I was easily able to figure out which category described me, and accepted that into my own identity.
These early days weren't very enlightened (and the '80s made it worse, not better, with the addition of heightened sensationalizing), but to say it wasn't out there just isn't true. For the motivated, information (despite being incomplete, and sometimes misleading) was easy (if embarrassing) to find.
Lora
EDIT: I can't believe that I forgot to mention Penthouse magazine. Starting in the late '70s, my brother and his friends had a stash of these, and the "Forum" section often contained at least one trans-themed story. That was a huge source of comfort to me because it was proof that I was not alone...
I didn't mean to leave anyone out or mischaracterize what you've gone through. Each decade has it's bad times, evil people, and bigotry. Even those who struggle with gender today have these problems. I only meant to express the "when and where" I came from. Sorry, and I humbly offer my apology.
Quote from: kathyk on October 16, 2013, 11:46:29 AM
I didn't mean to leave anyone out or mischaracterize what you've gone through. Each decade has it's bad times, evil people, and bigotry. Even those who struggle with gender today have these problems. I only meant to express the "when and where" I came from. Sorry, and I humbly offer my apology.
No hard feelings from me! :D Truthfully... there's no good time to come out -- just less bad times.
Quote from: translora on October 16, 2013, 11:07:46 AM
Let me make a quick plug for my early trans-awareness.
I first looked up the word "->-bleeped-<-" in a dictionary around 1973 (born in '63). It pretty much described what I was experiencing.
I became aware of Christine Jorgenson about the same time, along with the possibility of "sex change surgery". It didn't really fit how I felt, but I knew it existed.
The Phil Donahue Show first covered "transsexuals and ->-bleeped-<-s" in the mid-1970s somewhere, and that's the vehicle by which the subject entered the national consciousness. By then, I already knew a whole lot about the subject, but I was transfixed (if you'll pardon the expression) by his guests. Still, I was easily able to figure out which category described me, and accepted that into my own identity.
These early days weren't very enlightened (and the '80s made it worse, not better, with the addition of heightened sensationalizing), but to say it wasn't out there just isn't true. For the motivated, information (despite being incomplete, and sometimes misleading) was easy (if embarrassing) to find.
Lora
Well, here's my awareness history ...
All through my boyhood I felt different from the other boys (and there were only boys) around me. I couldn't quite say why. I just felt more insubstantial than them in some way. But I was away at boarding school. My parents were thousands of miles away. There was no one to talk to and I didn't want to get the **** kicked out of me. So I manned up, became hyper-competitive, angry, even aggressive. Over-compensating like crazy.
So, puberty hits ...
In January 1974 my father, now back in the UK, took me to see the original London production of the Rocky Horror Show for my 15th birthday treat. Already an obsessive David Bowie fan - and in love with the whole idea of being able to look so wild and pretty as a man - I was, of course, knocked out by the show. One verse in particular transfixed me:
Whatever happened to Fay Wray
That delicate satin draped frame
As it clung to her thigh
How I started to cry
Coz I wanted to be dressed just the same
And I suddenly realised, with absolute clarity, that I wanted to be like (and not just be dressed like) Fay Wray too.
Later that year, Jan Morris published Conundrum, the story of her early life as James Morris and her sex-change (the word 'transition' wasn't used then, so far as I as, or am aware) ... and I read the extracts in the Sunday Times and thought, 'Oh my God, am I like that?'
So I knew about transsexuality. And I was fascinated by it. And I lay in the bath and fantasized about some accident or disease that would take away all that stuff between my legs, so that I could become a girl.
But I never thought that I wasn't a boy. I was at an all-boys school. I had girlfriends. I was being raised to be a man - in fact, a leader of men ... And THAT's the difference between then and now, because when I tried to make sense of what i was feeling, and tried to talk to the shrinks I was seeing from my late teens on, no one said, 'You're transsexual.'
On the contrary, they did everything they could to reinforce the supposedly rational, common sense truth that I was male and should stay male, and if I wasn't happy with that, well, I just had to make the best of it. ... Obviously, they didn't put it that crudely. But they certainly did not hear me, or acknowledge my truth when I kept telling them again and again and again about my longing to be female.
My guess, well, my hope is that a kid who felt that way today, and went to see people who were supposed to be experts would be given a more open-minded hearing.
Thank you to everyone for responding.
I too was someone that was pretty deep in denial growing up. I knew I was a woman around age 10 but also knew that unless god changed me in my sleep it wasn't going to happen. I tried to be as manly as I could in hopes that the female thoughts would go away. I played sports in high school, joined the military after college and worked with special forces for 7 years. Even now I don't exactly have a female friendly job as a contractor working with those same guys, but that's a different problem.
We met while I was in the military so I assume she thought she found a macho guy that was also sensitive. When I came out to her she thought it was a bad joke, and keeps thinking that it's just a bad dream.
Last night we had a long conversation about the future, and I think she is leaning towards either a sexless or open marriage. I think we came to the decision that divorce is a last option. We still love each other and can't stand the thought of being apart, so hopefully that can carry us for the long run.
Quote from: Janae on October 15, 2013, 11:31:08 PM
What I'd like to know, and I hope I'm not stepping on toes with this, is why would anyone who is mtf get married prior to transitioning?
To me it seems like such a waste for everyone involved. I could never have dated a woman let alone got married to one and started a family knowing what I was. I understand being in denial or not accepting yourself, but to bring another innocent person into this kinda of situation is beyond my understanding. And then on top of it to expect a spouse to go along with everything in the end. I never hear anyone talk the pain these females are experiencing, only how tough things are for us after coming out to a wife. I mean it can't be easy waking up one day and your husband just decides to become a woman. After that I seriously can't blame them for being standoffish and detached.
I sure would like to know the reasoning some people here had before getting hitched.
I was married at age 19 because I'd fallen in love. I didn't fully understand my gender identity until I was 40. We were divorced not long after I turned 41.
And it's not a waste. My ex doesn't hate me and we have two wonderful adult kids who still love us both.
Married 27 years, still married, no signs anything will be changing in that detail.
Life though is change.
My wife has stuck through with more than a few hard challenges, I think shes either a glutton for punishment or a hardcore not quitter type.
I think she'd have left me a long ways back if she was inclined to do so.
But still, there is a big difference between leaving a man and leaving a no longer male person.
And while marriage is not all sex, and if you ask most couples they hardly have sex at all in many cases, but let me tell ya, the moment your sex life is not being delivered via her body, it sure as hell makes a damned big difference.
But when your sex life requires her to do to you, what you normally do to her, it can get complicated. Maybe she doesn't quite like giving ->-bleeped-<-s, but giving another female oral well its not something the average woman expects to do in a hetero married existence. She's used to laying back and you using your magic fingers on her, not her doing that to yours :)
In my case, I have had a VERY active sex life in the last number of years. If you measure frequency, I was likely getting it more often than the rest of the thread combined for the last few years :) But, I am not really sure what that was all about either. I have thought my body was over compensating for something. I'm not in the greatest of shape either, and some days, just being able to finish the act, it is a lot of hassle for me let alone my wife. And she's not in the greatest of shape either. Life with me has not been a picnic.
My wife and I, we have both resolved that A, we love each other more than life. B, we dread losing each other. C, we both really would prefer my sex drive gave it a rest as she really doesn't want it any more than me and currently I would rather it would shut off and stay off. I figure if HRT turns it off, we both win. I have no trouble sleeping next to the person that means the most to me. She is not just her body. And inasmuch as vows go, we did after all say for better or worse, sickness and health forsaking all others, till death do us part. There was never any mention of sex, or the specific method of how to get off.
My wife and I have realized, 'we need each other'. Our lives, divorced, they basically roll over and die. Financially we suffer, and we end up alone, and we have no one there to laugh with. We got married because we wanted each other. We'd done the parent thing. That stage is completed. Our son is an adult so we have no entanglements there.
We just the other day bought some tops from a company we like via their online store. Simple tshirts. It was handy we are the same size. She stated though, if they are really nice, she reserves the right to re order and get her own set :) I don't mind, she is always spilling stuff on her tops anyway :)
But it is nice we can at least have the ability to enjoy the fact that we might be able to share clothing in some cases. I am not sharing lingerie though :) She can get her own :)
But I feel so deeply sad for all that have marriages that simply can't come through unbroken.
I think too often, the vows in the ceremony don't mean enough, the sex means too much and people are often too set on seeing the shell as being who we are and not the person inside. Kids often make things too complicated, or the couple simply has not survived enough trials earlier to make it strong enough.
quote author=AZKatie link=topic=150793.msg1256256#msg1256256 date=1381943686]
...Last night we had a long conversation about the future, and I think she is leaning towards either a sexless or open marriage. I think we came to the decision that divorce is a last option. We still love each other and can't stand the thought of being apart, so hopefully that can carry us for the long run.[/quote]
That's good news. My wife says we might stay married as friends, or might need to go with an unoffical separation. It's been a year since we had that long discussion about separation, or divorce. She hasn't yet said "don't come home". So I keep my fingers crossed.
Quote from: Constance on October 16, 2013, 12:24:58 PM
And it's not a waste. My ex doesn't hate me and we have two wonderful adult kids who still love us both.
Hi Constance. It's funny how we all seem to understand our gender at some point, and no matter how hard we fight it we finally accept it.
I wouldn't turn the clock back for anything. I may wish I'd started in my 20's, but then I wouldn't have had the chance to raise two wonderful sons, and hold my grandson. That alone made 40 years denial worth it.
And I'll add that you're looking good in the new avatar there Constance.
Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on October 16, 2013, 01:00:35 PM
Married 27 years, still married, no signs anything will be changing in that detail.
Great to have such an open and accepting wife, and I wish we all could. But I'll take what comes my way. Good or bad it's out of my hands.
Quote from: kathyk on October 16, 2013, 01:31:35 PM
I wouldn't turn the clock back for anything. I may wish I'd started in my 20's, but then I wouldn't have had the chance to raise two wonderful sons, and hold my grandson. That alone made 40 years denial worth it.
That's exactly how I think of it too. I really do wish I could have come out and transitioned earlier, but I'd also have to wish to keep my kids... and you can't have both - I choose the kids, now. I realize I would have chosen differently then, but knowing about the pain I'd put others through makes that difference. I couldn't ever choose to hurt the people I love like this.
Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on October 16, 2013, 01:00:35 PM
I think too often, the vows in the ceremony don't mean enough, the sex means too much and people are often too set on seeing the shell as being who we are and not the person inside.
^ This. What's the point of vowing "for better or for worse, till death do us part" if that vow will only be broken later say, "Well, I meant it when I said it." AND, especially after telling me that if I truly loved her I'd always find her attractive no matter what. Heh. It really undermines the concept of a "soul mate."
Quote from: Constance on October 16, 2013, 01:45:01 PM
^ This. What's the point of vowing "for better or for worse, till death do us part" if that vow will only be broken later say, "Well, I meant it when I said it." AND, especially after telling me that if I truly loved her I'd always find her attractive no matter what. Heh. It really undermines the concept of a "soul mate."
I had this argument with my wife. It's wonderful for the people who have it, but unconditional love is very rare.
Quote from: kabit on October 16, 2013, 01:52:35 PM
I had this argument with my wife. It's wonderful for the people who have it, but unconditional love is very rare.
Yeah, I found that out the hard way. And if she'd never said, "I'd never leave you even if you needed to transition," I think we'd still be married. If she'd been honest with herself and with me, things could have been different. Oh, well.
Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on October 16, 2013, 01:55:54 PM
Hey, we were born in the same year :)
And it sounds like the same marital situation! If it has to end, I hope yours ends amicably.
Quote from: kathyk on October 16, 2013, 09:33:50 AM
Janae: Even if there's already been a lot of answers to your question I'll toss in my two cents. But I'll give you a hug first because you're young and have so much to look forward to in this paradigm where you can find wonderful love and acceptance. Yeah, I'm very envious.
So, the simple answer is - because "We fell in love."
The long answer is - We grew up in the 50's, 60's and 70's. There was no resource for being trans, and no one talked about it other than to debase and humiliate anyone like us. Trans individuals were considered queers, ->-bleeped-<-gots, deviants, or child molesters. I was only beaten up a couple times, and suffered only one forced sexual act (rape) but others went through much more torture, and at times it's a wonder any of us survived. So we learned to live in society for self protection, and we had to find a social group that provided some acceptance of our weird body language and speech patterns. It was either a conscious decision or something that just came to us. So we lived our lives as born, and hid everything inside or in closets. We had no choice, and yet at some point we found someone to fall in love with.
Hugs again hon. K
Thanks for the reply Kathy.
I think you summed up what I wanted to know, and I liked your response the best. I was thinking it had to be some generational factors at play and you just confirmed this. Being younger and growing up in the 80's 90's to early 2000's things were a lot different for me and girls my age. My first experience of transwomen was from shows like Jerry Springer, Jenny Jones and Ricki Lake. Even though they are all bad examples of transwomen, they were my only reference point. I started wearing girls clothes at 14. By the time I was 16 I was going out as a girl regularly with friends. Early on I used to go out with my mom as a girl and she was in shock that people couldn't tell. I naturally don't have strong male features so I passed the majority of the time. Even at 30 I look pretty much they same as I did as a teen and in my 20's.
I always knew I wanted to change I just wasn't aware of how. Puberty didn't help my efforts and was a major reason for my delay. One day I very fortunate run in with a trans girl in high school. She was cute and passable and my age we did everything together. This was only in 1999. She had the life I wanted. She was living as a girl, going to school and dating as a girl seamlessly. She helped me to realize that there was a way to change. I also got to know a lot of girls in their teens, 20's and 30's who were already living as women in my city, which only made me want to transition even more. In my city growing up it was nothing to be out at the clubs or over at a friends or just out and see young transgirls everywhere. Most of us grew up together so everyone knew everyone.
Most of us didn't have the same pressures & obstacles, So it was a lot easier transitioning in the past 20yrs compared to earlier times. After reading your post in a way I better understand the paths older transwomen felt they had to take before realizing their true selves. Thanks again for your post.
Well, crap. I found out tonight that my wife wants to separate and I know that's going to be the first step toward a divorce :'(
Finding out that you are transsexual later in life sucks.
I am seriously unsure where my life would have gone relationship wise if I had known I was a woman before I had ever met my wife.
Logic says I would never have gotten married to a woman.
Logic says I would have likely aimed for a male.
I've always been ruled by logic.
I've always liked females though sexually.
And I have had intense mysandry for most of my life thanks to most of what I have learned intellectually over the years.
I think I'd have stayed single, and I am not sure I'd still be alive dealing with fybromyalgia alone.
Knowing something early on is not always a good thing or an easy thing.
Quote from: Eva Marie on October 17, 2013, 02:14:11 AM
Well, crap. I found out tonight that my wife wants to separate and I know that's going to be the first step toward a divorce :'(
Finding out that you are transsexual later in life sucks.
So sorry Eva. I totally sympathize with you since my therapist always says to be ready for the worst, even if it never comes along. And yet I know I'll never be prepared if it happens.
Quote from: kathyk on October 17, 2013, 09:18:17 AM
So sorry Eva. I totally sympathize with you since my therapist always says to be ready for the worst, even if it never comes along. And yet I know I'll never be prepared if it happens.
I love my therapist, but he's very naturally oriented and likes to avoid medications if possible... he suggested an orchiectomy when I told him I wanted to start with ~6 months of AAs then move to E!! They may be very caring and supportive; they may be quite knowledgable, but the medical side of our transition they mostly learn from us (and their other patients).
Quote from: Eva Marie on October 17, 2013, 02:14:11 AM
Well, crap. I found out tonight that my wife wants to separate and I know that's going to be the first step toward a divorce :'(
Finding out that you are transsexual later in life sucks.
{{{{{HUGS}}}}}
Quote from: Janae on October 17, 2013, 12:37:25 AM
Thanks for the reply Kathy.
I think you summed up what I wanted to know, and I liked your response the best. I was thinking it had to be some generational factors at play and you just confirmed this. Being younger and growing up in the 80's 90's to early 2000's things were a lot different for me and girls my age. My first experience of transwomen was from shows like Jerry Springer, Jenny Jones and Ricki Lake. Even though they are all bad examples of transwomen, they were my only reference point. I started wearing girls clothes at 14. By the time I was 16 I was going out as a girl regularly with friends. Early on I used to go out with my mom as a girl and she was in shock that people couldn't tell. I naturally don't have strong male features so I passed the majority of the time. Even at 30 I look pretty much they same as I did as a teen and in my 20's.
I always knew I wanted to change I just wasn't aware of how. Puberty didn't help my efforts and was a major reason for my delay. One day I very fortunate run in with a trans girl in high school. She was cute and passable and my age we did everything together. This was only in 1999. She had the life I wanted. She was living as a girl, going to school and dating as a girl seamlessly. She helped me to realize that there was a way to change. I also got to know a lot of girls in their teens, 20's and 30's who were already living as women in my city, which only made me want to transition even more. In my city growing up it was nothing to be out at the clubs or over at a friends or just out and see young transgirls everywhere. Most of us grew up together so everyone knew everyone.
Most of us didn't have the same pressures & obstacles, So it was a lot easier transitioning in the past 20yrs compared to earlier times. After reading your post in a way I better understand the paths older transwomen felt they had to take before realizing their true selves. Thanks again for your post.
Thanks for telling your story, Janae. It really highlights that there's another issue to take into account in all this, and that's the way that a particular individual experiences their dysphoria/transsexuality. From what you say, you were more comfortable and natural presenting as a girl from your early teens, so I'm guessing you never really lived as an adult man. So from your perspective, transition was essentially seamless with how you were anyway. Not to diminish your experience or the difficulty of transition for anyone, of course, but from high school onwards you were on that path ... and in many ways I envy that.
You see, for me, and a lot of late-transitioners, the experience is less clear cut. There's a therapist called Dr Anne Vitale who's written some very interesting stuff about this. She's a strong believer in the idea that transsexuality arises from a pre-natal issue in which the brains of male babies don't receive any, or enough of the hormones required to masculinise them. So they stay totally or partially female. She therefore divides transsexuals into three groups, as follows ...
Group One (G1) is best described as those natal males who have a high degree of cross-sexed gender identity. In these individuals, we can hypothesize that the prenatal androgenization process--if there was any at all--was minimal, leaving the default female identity intact. Furthermore, the expression of female identity of those individuals appears impossible or very difficult for them to conceal.
Group Two (G2) is composed of natal females [I've cut the rest of this since it's not relevant to us here]
Group Three (G3) is composed of natal males who identify as female but who act and appear normally male. We can hypothesize that prenatal androgenization was sufficient to allow these individuals to appear and act normally as males but insufficient to establish a firm male gender identity. For these female-identified males, the result is a more complicated and insidious sex/gender discontinuity. Typically, from earliest childhood these individuals suffer increasingly painful and chronic gender dysphoria. They tend to live secretive lives, often making increasingly stronger attempts to convince themselves and others that they are male.
Here's the link to the full piece: http://www.avitale.com/developmentalreview.htm
Anyway, I very much belong to Group 3. So I suspect my whole life has been much more ambiguous than yours, because although I had an incredibly strong pull towards the female side of life, I was able to function satisfactorily - at least so far as the outside world was concerned - as a man. So I did what guys are supposed to do and became a husband and father. And I don't regret that, because I love my wife and my kids.
But damn it's made things complicated. And now, many years on, it's causing a tremendous amount of pain to everyone.
Quote from: Carlita on October 17, 2013, 12:43:26 PM
Group Three (G3) is composed of natal males who identify as female but who act and appear normally male. We can hypothesize that prenatal androgenization was sufficient to allow these individuals to appear and act normally as males but insufficient to establish a firm male gender identity. For these female-identified males, the result is a more complicated and insidious sex/gender discontinuity. Typically, from earliest childhood these individuals suffer increasingly painful and chronic gender dysphoria. They tend to live secretive lives, often making increasingly stronger attempts to convince themselves and others that they are male.
Here's the link to the full piece: http://www.avitale.com/developmentalreview.htm
Anyway, I very much belong to Group 3. So I suspect my whole life has been much more ambiguous than yours, because although I had an incredibly strong pull towards the female side of life, I was able to function satisfactorily - at least so far as the outside world was concerned - as a man. So I did what guys are supposed to do and became a husband and father. And I don't regret that, because I love my wife and my kids.
But damn it's made things complicated. And now, many years on, it's causing a tremendous amount of pain to everyone.
Yes. I can't say if the science is true, but G3 describes me to a T. Also, the problem was worst during puberty, dropped (and/or I found ways to cope) and eventually rose to boil over again.
Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on October 17, 2013, 02:31:11 AM
Truly, Katy wrote a wonderful post and after reading that sentence about "falling in love" there were tears in my eyes :).
Janae, You nailed it down very precisely. A couple days ago I was here in the chat room and there was another girl - my guess would be she was in her early 20-ties. So I was exchanging remarks with another girl and that old statement about "living two lives" came up at some point of time. And I realised that this young girl totally could not get it - really, she was aware of herself from early age, she was probably encouraged and supported by her parents and eveni f the life as such was not all rosy and pink, but she did not get to experience the male part of life. I felt very jealous for her, and yet I also did not – but I also felt that we were very different personality-wise. Perhaps , she is much more feminine than I am – than I could ever be. Perhaps, i am simly getting older and grumpier and jealous of youngsters.
I wish, I could have transitioned when I was teen or in my twenties, but the life was totally different on the other side of iron curtain and even now I hardly know a couple of transgender people here, and most of them are not very open.
Thanks Emily,
I think in most of our situations we have experience with "living two lives", obviously some more than others. I feel happy for anyone who's family provided a safe environment to be free to transition young. I think it's great for any transwomen to experience women-hood at a young age. Because let's face it once those teens & 20's are gone they're gone for good. It was torture being 16-17 in middle/high school and seeing girls my age going to school, prom, etc as girls. When I first started going to therapy @ 29 I remember telling my therapist how bad I felt for waisting so much time. It still bothers me even @ 30. I'm just happy that I "Woke up from the matrix" and had the courage to get started while I'm still able to enjoy being young. My biggest issue was knowing what I wanted to do since I was 11-12 but feeling as if I need permission to be "Me". It's not easy especially being so young and not having a blueprint to follow. I now get excited whenever I see these young trans kids on tv with full family support.
Quote from: Carlita on October 17, 2013, 12:43:26 PM
Thanks for telling your story, Janae. It really highlights that there's another issue to take into account in all this, and that's the way that a particular individual experiences their dysphoria/transsexuality. From what you say, you were more comfortable and natural presenting as a girl from your early teens, so I'm guessing you never really lived as an adult man. So from your perspective, transition was essentially seamless with how you were anyway. Not to diminish your experience or the difficulty of transition for anyone, of course, but from high school onwards you were on that path ... and in many ways I envy that.
You see, for me, and a lot of late-transitioners, the experience is less clear cut.
But damn it's made things complicated. And now, many years on, it's causing a tremendous amount of pain to everyone.
You are very welcome Carlita
I was VERY comfortable presenting as a girl in my teens. Once I noticed my mother didn't care I turned up the volume. She actually responded in a way that still makes me laugh to this day. I've always had this "I don't care lets do it" personality, I just thought why not? Once I noticed I was pretty passable it was like a high going to the mall or just out period as a girl. One day I was feeling pretty courageous and I went to school as a girl just on a whim. I created pandemonium once classmates noticed who I was. It was like being a celebrity with all the great attention I got, even though the administration had me sit in a substitute room all day for fear of my safety (They ruined all the fun). For a while this was all I needed to numb the dysphoria. But the older I got it just seemed to not be enough. I got tired of just being Janae for the night or afternoon. When I took everything off it was like Cinderella at 12 am. The back and forth just became frustrating. It took me 29 yrs to get to the point where I felt I had to either do this now or waste more yrs wishing I had. So you see I have lived life as a man and I still do to this day, But maybe in a entirely different way. I was never married, never had a girlfriend, no kids etc. I'm currently saving for surgeries, hair removal, etc so I can finally go full time and get on with life. And even though I was "On the path" I never got to my destination. Trust me my experience was nothing to envy.
And yes the wasted yrs and complications do cause us lots of pain....And Money!!!
Quote from: Janae on October 18, 2013, 02:18:24 AM
One day I was feeling pretty courageous and I went to school as a girl just on a whim. I created pandemonium once classmates noticed who I was. It was like being a celebrity with all the great attention I got, even though the administration had me sit in a substitute room all day for fear of my safety (They ruined all the fun). For a while this was all I needed to numb the dysphoria. But the older I got it just seemed to not be enough. I got tired of just being Janae for the night or afternoon. When I took everything off it was like Cinderella at 12 am. The back and forth just became frustrating.
I really relate to this. In my late teens I started wearing a lot of make-up - it was the seventies/early 80s: you could just say you were being glam, or punk, or new romantic ... from Bowie to Boy George there were 10 years when (some) boys painted their faces. It got to the stage where I was looking very androgynous, sometimes being mistaken for a girl (loved that!) and then going to parties as a girl.
I felt like Cinderella at the ball - so free, so happy,so completely at ease in myself. And, like you, I had the same comedown - like Cinders realising her gown is now rags and her coach has turned back into a pumpkin - when I realised that I still had a male body under the pretty dress, and I found that incredibly frustrating and depressing. So I buried that side of me, too ...
... guess we have more in common that I thought! :)
Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on October 17, 2013, 02:33:53 AM
I am really sorry to hear that Eva. Maybe she just needs a break and private space to breathe..., only time can show that. Meanwhile, I wish You courage, strength, patience and serenity... Hugs!
Quote from: kathyk on October 17, 2013, 09:18:17 AM
So sorry Eva. I totally sympathize with you since my therapist always says to be ready for the worst, even if it never comes along. And yet I know I'll never be prepared if it happens.
Quote from: Constance on October 17, 2013, 10:32:42 AM
{{{{{HUGS}}}}}
I love ya'll!! Thanks for the support, it's really needed/appreciated right now :)
Quote from: Carlita on October 17, 2013, 12:43:26 PM
You see, for me, and a lot of late-transitioners, the experience is less clear cut. There's a therapist called Dr Anne Vitale who's written some very interesting stuff about this. She's a strong believer in the idea that transsexuality arises from a pre-natal issue in which the brains of male babies don't receive any, or enough of the hormones required to masculinise them. So they stay totally or partially female. She therefore divides transsexuals into three groups, as follows ...
Group Three (G3) is composed of natal males who identify as female but who act and appear normally male. We can hypothesize that prenatal androgenization was sufficient to allow these individuals to appear and act normally as males but insufficient to establish a firm male gender identity. For these female-identified males, the result is a more complicated and insidious sex/gender discontinuity. Typically, from earliest childhood these individuals suffer increasingly painful and chronic gender dysphoria. They tend to live secretive lives, often making increasingly stronger attempts to convince themselves and others that they are male.
[/i]
Here's the link to the full piece: http://www.avitale.com/developmentalreview.htm
Anyway, I very much belong to Group 3. So I suspect my whole life has been much more ambiguous than yours, because although I had an incredibly strong pull towards the female side of life, I was able to function satisfactorily - at least so far as the outside world was concerned - as a man. So I did what guys are supposed to do and became a husband and father. And I don't regret that, because I love my wife and my kids.
But damn it's made things complicated. And now, many years on, it's causing a tremendous amount of pain to everyone.
I am also a G3 late transitioner and I did the wife/kids/career thing too. It really didn't start hitting me until I was in my early 40s. And yes, it is **^%$#@ complicated :-\
My wife now seems to vacillate between anger and remorse. She blamed me being trans on my very nutty mother and the crap I went through growing up. She is right - my mom is to blame but not in the way my wife believes; it has nothing to do with the way I was raised and everything to do with what happened to me in utero as Dr Anne Vitale postulates. I have also heard the exact same theory from my therapist.
As I read that article it I had a lot of "yep!" moments. In remorse mode my wife apologized to me and said that she didn't understand what it was like for me, so I sent her the link to that article. I think it will help her a lot to understand - thanks for posting it Carlita 8)
Quote from: Eva Marie on October 18, 2013, 07:56:15 AM
I am also a G3 late transitioner and I did the wife/kids/career thing too. It really didn't start hitting me until I was in my early 40s. And yes, it is **^%$#@ complicated :-\
My wife now seems to vacillate between anger and remorse. She blamed me being trans on my very nutty mother and the crap I went through growing up. She is right - my mom is to blame but not in the way my wife believes; it has nothing to do with the way I was raised and everything to do with what happened to me in utero as Dr Anne Vitale postulates. I have also heard the exact same theory from my therapist.
As I read that article it I had a lot of "yep!" moments. In remorse mode my wife apologized to me and said that she didn't understand what it was like for me, so I sent her the link to that article. I think it will help her a lot to understand - thanks for posting it Carlita 8)
In that case - and I speak as another late-transitioner dealing with a very troubled wife - I'm very glad the article was helpful to you, and to your wife. I know that when I read it I had the sensation of seeing my life-experience described with an uncanny accuracy ... and I knew, at last, what or maybe who I really was.
I do wonder about the speculation about in utero differences. One would think that there would be as many female assigned people who are weak in the male spectrum as male assigned people weak in the female spectrum (her G3). That either means there is a G4 that is not supported by her research or G3 is primarily societal, not physiological.
The societal difference from male privilege (see a different thread ;)) would support a societal G3 rather than a physiological G4. In other words... men try to resist any transgender tendencies because society sees being female as negative.
My wife flipped out when I first told her but, then came around to liking the idea very quickly. She still wont tell her family though... which is a worry. I am not convinced she can accept being labelled a lesbian or bisexual.
To be honest I am bracing myself for the fallout ever since. Alert... but not alarmed. As I recover from my depression I will do my best to set aside some savings in case things go south.
Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on October 18, 2013, 08:33:18 AM
Same story here... I almost want to cry how typical it is... :( My mother is not nutty, but well she and my ex dont really like each other, so my ex blames everything on my upbringing and lack of father as a strong gender identity role model.
I had a weak father. I saw my mom run him over many, many times and he rarely stood up for me. She wore the pants in the family.
Quote from: Carlita on October 17, 2013, 12:43:26 PM
You see, for me, and a lot of late-transitioners, the experience is less clear cut. There's a therapist called Dr Anne Vitale who's written some very interesting stuff about this. She's a strong believer in the idea that transsexuality arises from a pre-natal issue in which the brains of male babies don't receive any, or enough of the hormones required to masculinise them. So they stay totally or partially female. She therefore divides transsexuals into three groups, as follows ...
Group One (G1) is best described as those natal males who have a high degree of cross-sexed gender identity. In these individuals, we can hypothesize that the prenatal androgenization process--if there was any at all--was minimal, leaving the default female identity intact. Furthermore, the expression of female identity of those individuals appears impossible or very difficult for them to conceal.
Group Two (G2) is composed of natal females [I've cut the rest of this since it's not relevant to us here]
Group Three (G3) is composed of natal males who identify as female but who act and appear normally male. We can hypothesize that prenatal androgenization was sufficient to allow these individuals to appear and act normally as males but insufficient to establish a firm male gender identity. For these female-identified males, the result is a more complicated and insidious sex/gender discontinuity. Typically, from earliest childhood these individuals suffer increasingly painful and chronic gender dysphoria. They tend to live secretive lives, often making increasingly stronger attempts to convince themselves and others that they are male.
Here's the link to the full piece: http://www.avitale.com/developmentalreview.htm
Anyway, I very much belong to Group 3. So I suspect my whole life has been much more ambiguous than yours, because although I had an incredibly strong pull towards the female side of life, I was able to function satisfactorily - at least so far as the outside world was concerned - as a man. So I did what guys are supposed to do and became a husband and father. And I don't regret that, because I love my wife and my kids.
But damn it's made things complicated. And now, many years on, it's causing a tremendous amount of pain to everyone.
I think a possible factor in the G1 to G3 disparity is simply sexual orientation. Trans people attracted to the opposite sex (same gender) have more reinforcement to believe they're just a normal male/female with some eccentricities. While orientation and gender identity are said to be distinct, orientation is a huge factor in identity development.
Being into girls would also encourage a male bodied person to take on a more masculine role whether it suited their own inclinations or not. So much of gender roles are based on sex. Sex is probably the most powerful drive on earth. If you want to attract girls, you're probably not going to play up your girly factor. A young trans girl into guys wouldn't have this disparity to deal with.
Quote from: Eva Marie on October 18, 2013, 08:51:17 AM
I had a weak father. I saw my mom run him over many, many times and he rarely stood up for me. She wore the pants in the family.
Well, all male role models which I picked for myself, when I decided that somehow I have to get on with my life were much more masculine than my father ever was or could ever hope to be. If that did not do the trick, then having him around in person would not have changed anything in the long term, unfortunately.
Quote from: FA on October 18, 2013, 09:27:29 AM
I think a possible factor in the G1 to G3 disparity is simply sexual orientation. Trans people attracted to the opposite sex (same gender) have more reinforcement to believe they're just a normal male/female with some eccentricities. While orientation and gender identity are said to be distinct, orientation is a huge factor in identity development.
Being into girls would also encourage a male bodied person to take on a more masculine role whether it suited their own inclinations or not. So much of gender roles are based on sex. Sex is probably the most powerful drive on earth. If you want to attract girls, you're probably not going to play up your girly factor. A young trans girl into guys wouldn't have this disparity to deal with.
I don't agree. I think orientation can play a role, but I think there are many, many other aspects of suppression. In my own history, I recall having mostly girls as friends (I'm talking under 1st grade here). I also remember one saying she wanted to marry me... and (I think) it felt weird... not bad, but weird. My suppression of my gender identity was primarily because of bullies in the neighborhood and school, and from loose gender roles at home (which, I think, added to my confusion).
Fast forward, and I'm hetero as assigned at birth and just starting to transition... and I'm also starting to question my sexuality. It's not very serious - because sexuality is not very important in my life right now - but I think I was into women more because I wanted to be one. I may be bisexual, but I
really don't think I'm on the straight & narrow hetero --> lesbian path. As the article describes, us G3 people often date and marry women to be closer to women theraputically. All my closest friends (when I had close friends) were always women. It's very easy to think you like women better when you like to look at them and imagine being them.
The article hits very close to home as written. There are only a few things that I deviated from. I did cross dress, but did not carry that out of adolescence - other than one time that didn't last long. I was strictly a personal-fantasy sort of closted trans woman. Virtual cross dressing, if you will.
Quote from: kabit on October 18, 2013, 09:54:58 AM
I don't agree. I think orientation can play a role, but I think there are many, many other aspects of suppression.
Well, obviously every case is different. I wasn't saying it was the only factor but I think it could be a big one in a lot of cases.
QuoteIt's not very serious - because sexuality is not very important in my life right now - but I think I was into women more because I wanted to be one. I may be bisexual, but I really don't think I'm on the straight & narrow hetero --> lesbian path. As the article describes, us G3 people often date and marry women to be closer to women theraputically. All my closest friends (when I had close friends) were always women. It's very easy to think you like women better when you like to look at them and imagine being them.
That seems to be common in a lot of cases - of confusing attraction for admiration. But I don't think the motivation really changes the outcome - a male bodied kid wanting romantic attention from girls is still going to be less likely to display characteristics that turn off the majority of the female population.
Every case is different of course, I'm just saying there would be greater motivation for a trans girl attracted to girls (despite the reason for it (which she likely wouldn't have been able to articulate at the time) to 'play the man' than the other way around. And possibly also be less likely to recognize the trans inclination (because after all, she's a male born person into T&A. what could be more 'normal' than that?). It's more of a leap to make than if she was already outside the norm for liking guys. (this isn't to say always-straight-trans girls had it easier either). And possibly less motivation to want to risk things once she does realize it.
Again, obviously everyone's individual case is different. And of course there are lesbian trans girls who transitioned early (though this seems much more common among the younger set).
But I think orientation is probably at least as good a theory than as G3 simply having more prenatal androgenization. Though more androgenization could possibly be a case for the 'heterosexual' orientation developing in the first place.
Anyway, at least in those born to older generations, more of the later transitoners seem oriented towards women and the earlier ones toward men. I think this is more than just a coincidence.
I am actually with kabit in this too... too many coincidences, huh? :) My first sexual fantasies were about men, but I was always female-bodied in them. I just could not do that with a guy while having male body... yuck. Puberty and hormones actually played a big role my further development, as my disgust towards guys turned into attraction or admiration towards girls, yet at first I wanted them as friends, not lovers (not having sex - any type of it - till I turned 23 is pretty much self-evident). Now, after I had started the HRT, there is a total mess in my head and I am not sure about my attractions anymore. My admiration/attraction towards women seem to dwindle as my body gains female features, and as I loose my strength, I feel excited in the presence of males - as well as totally frightened and confused by my feelings at the same time. I hope, this will get clearer with time, if not - I will spend the remainder of my life asexual again...
Quote from: FA on October 18, 2013, 10:43:45 AM
Anyway, at least in those born to older generations, more of the later transitoners seem oriented towards women and the earlier ones toward men. I think this is more than just a coincidence.
It's not coincidence! For a looong time a man had to be gay to transition. In fact - and this is probably the 90s - I was given a book by my parents (yeah... I came out to them - not well, but I did it) that said all transsexuals were gay. I remember telling them I had to be bi, then, but they didn't buy it. That was probably the final straw that sent me into hiding and suppression
IMO, G3 is social and relates directly to how well the kid can suppress it and build up a gender identity wall.
Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on October 18, 2013, 11:44:05 AM
I am actually with kabit in this too... too many coincidences, huh? :) My first sexual fantasies were about men, but I was always female-bodied in them. I just could not do that with a guy while having male body... yuck. Puberty and hormones actually played a big role my further development, as my disgust towards guys turned into attraction or admiration towards girls, yet at first I wanted them as friends, not lovers (not having sex - any type of it - till I turned 23 is pretty much self-evident). Now, after I had started the HRT, there is a total mess in my head and I am not sure about my attractions anymore. My admiration/attraction towards women seem to dwindle as my body gains female features, and as I loose my strength, I feel excited in the presence of males - as well as totally frightened and confused by my feelings at the same time. I hope, this will get clearer with time, if not - I will spend the remainder of my life asexual again...
Puberty was a big problem for me. If my parents had believed it or if I had pressed the issue I'd have gone to therapy... god knows how that would have turned out (given the 90s and transsexuality [sic]).
I was sexual only with my wife (ever - aside from the first couple of "bases")... and even then I imagined us as reversed most times. I won't go into too many details (oh... I'm great at giving out TMI), but together we found positions we liked best that really supported that fantasy of mine. I thought it was
just a fantasy at the time - but we're back to G3 there. And dysphoria? Absolutely worst when trying to conceive or when she was pregnant!
Quote from: kabit on October 18, 2013, 12:00:21 PM
I was sexual only with my wife (ever - aside from the first couple of "bases")... and even then I imagined us as reversed most times. I won't go into too many details (oh... I'm great at giving out TMI), but together we found positions we liked best that really supported that fantasy of mine.
Oh, no need to give out TMI - I totally get what You mean and which were those positions... ;). I did not pay much attention back then - but I do remember that it felt kinda right. Yet, because of Your post, another piece of puzzle just clicked into its place :)
Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on October 18, 2013, 12:12:41 PM
Oh, no need to give out TMI - I totally get what You mean and which were those positions... ;). I did not pay much attention back then - but I do remember that it felt kinda right. Yet, because of Your post, another piece of puzzle just clicked into its place :)
Ahhhhk... now I'm wondering what positions you're imagining me in :p (LOL... kidding... sort of.) There needs to be a special TMI forum. Or is that what your $10/mo goes for? (I don't
mind telling - PM me if you really want ;)) I almost got in trouble for asking a serious question about early life "techniques."
yep... I'm far too open now that I'm out!
.....
re: the rest of your post,
That's the best part of (early?) transition. I started this realizing that I was transgender, but I was seeing so many stories that were so different from mine... then I started realizing that, not only were there more stories out there, but remembering my hidden past made even the original stories similar in many ways.
The self doubt goes away fast... at least it did for me.
Quote from: kabit on October 18, 2013, 12:21:51 PM
Ahhhhk... now I'm wondering what positions you're imagining me in :p (LOL... kidding... sort of.)
Nope, I was remembering myself in them, actually :).
Quote from: kabit on October 18, 2013, 12:21:51 PM
The self doubt goes away fast... at least it did for me.
Lucky You... I still get it at times. Anyway, I am trying to remember the excellent post made by one member here, who quoted her therapist: "If You have heard the story of one transgender person, You have heard the story of one transgender person". So simple, yet true and wise:).
I agree. My bigger problem is that I'm convinced nobody (with some exceptions) believes me. Which makes me want to overwhelm them more... I'm not very good holding things back right now.
I'm dying to send this G1 / G3 article to my wife, but she won't read it anyway and she'll just get angry that I want her to understand who I am. Meanwhile, the side comment was that she thinks I'm superficial and spending money on superficial things (when my son told her she's beautiful - that's how she responded... "no I'm not, some people are superficial..."). Yeah - you just told me don't understand me at all.
Sorry for the rant. :P bleh
Quote from: FA on October 18, 2013, 09:27:29 AM
I think a possible factor in the G1 to G3 disparity is simply sexual orientation. Trans people attracted to the opposite sex (same gender) have more reinforcement to believe they're just a normal male/female with some eccentricities. While orientation and gender identity are said to be distinct, orientation is a huge factor in identity development.
Being into girls would also encourage a male bodied person to take on a more masculine role whether it suited their own inclinations or not. So much of gender roles are based on sex. Sex is probably the most powerful drive on earth. If you want to attract girls, you're probably not going to play up your girly factor. A young trans girl into guys wouldn't have this disparity to deal with.
This is a really interesting point. For years I told myself that i couldn't REALLY be transsexual because I had girlfriends and I'd never gone with guys.
But here's the thing ... I never, ever had a conventional male sex-drive (gay or straight) where you're basically led by your dick and just want to get laid ... I mean, that is how regular guys feel, right? Whatever, I never did.
I really liked girls a lot. And I loved the way they looked, and how their skin felt, and how nice it was to be close to their bodies. But with three or four exceptions, sex was always really a difficulty. I had some very sexual times in my life, but they only happened when my emotions had really been hyped up to fever pitch, either because I was crazy about someone, or because there was something very very intense - often negative - in our relationship.
And here's the thing ... I have never in my life fantasized about having sex with a woman. I literally don't know how to do make the thoughts come into my mind. My sexual fantasies have always been about having sex with guys ... but as a woman. That's what felt most natural and arousing to me. Still does.
So I wonder whether a G3 transsexual who acts heterosexual is necessarily, truly straight. Maybe she just wants to get as close as possible to the thing she wants to be. I know I almost never made love to a woman without part of me - often the largest part - wishing I was where she was. But since I couldn't be there, I had to make do with the next best thing.
And if I'm being honest, I know that a large element in my desire to transition is that I can't face going to my grave without ever once knowing what it feels like to have a man inside me.