What the hell is 'male privilege' anyway? I keep reading about people who have experienced the shock of not having this anymore after they began transitioning. Pretty sure I never had male privilege to begin with and/or never wanted it. Being 'male' never gave me any privileges, it was a chore that I despised greatly.
I was always secretly jealous of the way women were treated. I felt like I got cheated! I guess I never really felt entitled to anything that comes with having a male body, so I feel like I didn't lose anything.
And honestly I really love the way men treat me now. It's not like that much has changed, I just finally have a body that matches my brain. Thank God! :)
I really can't think of any privileges that I lost. I'm interested to know what other people's experiences have been. Any thoughts?
Oh I could give you dozens of personal experiences. When I presented as a guy people treated me different than the women in the same role. I was an anesthetist and if I walked into a room with a woman wearing the same sexless scrubs she would usually be thought of as a nurse and I would be called doctor even if the actual credentials were reversed. At meetings I was often expected to "take charge" and be the leader when women beside me had more experience. I was more often considered for advanced placement because I was "a guy" and serious about work.
People do make all kinds of assumptions based on sex.
Like you I am enjoying where I am now
On average men earn higher salaries for equivalent work, men are more likely to be promoted to higher positions than women, men are more likely to be listened to (and believed) by other men in meetings, etc... As the old feminist saying goes "women have to try twice as hard to be considered half as good as men." And possibly these days it's not quite as bad in some areas of the Western world as it was before the 1970s but women still have a fair way to go before they have full equality and of course it's very bad in some parts of the world, women are often treated as second class citizens or less.
I think a good question especially for us MtF transitioners is: Are we lucky or unlucky we have experienced "Male privilege" in our former lives knowing we are going to be subject to the reversal? Food for thought. ;)
There are privileges on both sides of the gender divide. Females are treated with more sensitivity and solicitousness. Males are credited with more substance. Both are real.
However, both of them are microscopic compared to "cis privilege", the privilege extended to people who are not perceived to be attempting to straddle or cross the gender barrier.
I remember how my thoughts and ideas would actually be listened to by men. I also remember when it was in my place to be anything but feminine. One male privilege that nobody ever talks about is how men get to say just about any off the wall thing they want and they get shrugged off as just being men. Women almost have to act uniformly or they're singled out.
I think most "male privilege" is actually "alpha male privilege", just like most "female privilege" is based on being stereotypically female.
Quote from: <3 on October 16, 2013, 07:12:24 AM
I think most "male privilege" is actually "alpha male privilege", just like most "female privilege" is based on being stereotypically female.
I think it's a continuum of privilige. The more masculine and alpha you are, the more privilige you get. Likewise for being female - a "butch" woman gets less female privilige. And we get neither... unless we're correctly gendered (or strongly misgendered).
Quote from: Grace_C on October 16, 2013, 04:28:03 AM
On average men earn higher salaries for equivalent work, men are more likely to be promoted to higher positions than women, men are more likely to be listened to (and believed) by other men in meetings, etc... As the old feminist saying goes "women have to try twice as hard to be considered half as good as men." And possibly these days it's not quite as bad in some areas of the Western world as it was before the 1970s but women still have a fair way to go before they have full equality and of course it's very bad in some parts of the world, women are often treated as second class citizens or less.
There's absolutely no denying the fact that women were much worse off than men in the past, and certainly still are across great swathes of the globe. But it's worth pointing out that in the West (incl. the US, Canada, Australia, UK, Europe) women now make up around 60% of all university graduates. That has an immediate impact on their career prospects, so virtually all the traditional professions - medicine, law, accountancy, etc - now have a greater number of women entering them, and more women than men up to about the age of 35 (i.e. until childbirth affects women's life choices). That in turn means that young women in the West are now earning more than their male counterparts. This actually causes problems of its own because it means that women can't depend on a man to bring home the bacon, have to keep earning their own money and thus find it harder to find the time and resources to have children - hence plummeting birth rates among the host populations of western countries, especially among graduate women.
One might also add that women are allowed a much wider range of presentation and activity, without sacrificing their femininity/femaleness than men are allowed before they are seen not to be sufficiantly male (I think we, of all people, know this). Women can wear what they like, act girly or butch, do 'guy' things ... In all sorts of ways the pendulum has swung in women's favour over the past few decades, which is great ... unless you have a son to worry about.
But, again, that's not to say that there aren;t still cultures and religions in which women are oppressed, abused and mutilated in appalling and unacceptable ways.
For myself, I was about as privileged as a male can be: white, tall, healthy, from the upper end of the social scale, educated to a very high level at world-famous institutions, great job, the works .. and I'd have swapped it all in a heartbeat for the chance to live my whole life as natural-born woman.
Honestly it has felt like a curse to me. You must act this way, talk this way, walk this way, anything that strays from the mold and you get berated for it.
I have enjoyed very little of the male privileges throughout my life.
Quote from: Megan on October 16, 2013, 08:16:52 AM
Honestly it has felt like a curse to me. You must act this way, talk this way, walk this way, anything that strays from the mold and you get berated for it.
Yes to this!
Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on October 16, 2013, 08:18:45 AM
The biggest male privilege ever is not to be aware of its existence, btw. And there is a grain of truth in that statement, believe or not ;).
And very much to this! Just reading about it ("Whipping Girl") and being an active observer opened my eyes. I was never a bad offender of micro aggressions toward women, but all men are taught to do it. I certainly hope that's gone now.
Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on October 16, 2013, 08:18:45 AM
The biggest male privilege ever is not to be aware of its existence, btw. And there is a grain of truth in that statement, believe or not ;).
Good point.
There's a misconception about male privilege and privileges in general. It doesn't mean someone with privilege in one area has it easy. You could be a poor, gay white man and be treated like crap every day and still have privilege people of color don't. An effeminate man may get less respect than the proverbial 'alpha male' but it doesn't mean he doesn't have male privilege.
Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on October 16, 2013, 08:36:01 AM
We will pay our debts by "enjoying" the experience from the other side :). I was never keenly aware of that until I came out to my best male friend. It really seems that he sometimes considers me to be a second class person, who needs to be explained simple things - despite having done that countless times before. This, and everytime we meet each other, he tries to secretly check me out - butt, bewbs etc. Argh....
I'll almost enjoy it ;)
I still get people close to me who think I'm downplaying what they know how to do, etc. It has nothing to do with what I'm saying or how I'm saying it (mostly online, actually)... I think they just assume that I'm degrading them because I'm male... and it usually has to do with computer stuff - since I'm pretty good with that stuff and tend to over explain things to
everyone (not just women).
(Actually.... Lately I feel like the technology knows I'm a trans girl and is rebelling against me... I think it's called "getting older" - either that or the cheap crap we buy because it's cheap :D ).
Quote from: kabit on October 16, 2013, 08:40:47 AM
and it usually has to do with computer stuff
Male Privilege yawn, lots of threads about this over the years.
Only a few months ago, myself and hubby went to a computer store to get a new printer, I just asked a question about loading ink cartridges, the guy just ignored me, I wasn't letting it go and asked again, then he replied ''your ok luv, Iv explained it all to your husband'' he was very rude, then I overheard him saying to his work colleague, ''women really should stick to flower arranging'' some men have no respect for women.
But then theres Female Privilege which I enjoy, I never have to stand on a train, always get offered a seat and doors get opened for me. My husband does all the heavy dirty work in the house and garden, its nice have a guy around doing all that stuff that I hate doing.
Quote from: pretty pauline on October 16, 2013, 09:18:23 AM
Male Privilege yawn, lots of threads about this over the years.
Only a few months ago, myself and hubby went to a computer store to get a new printer, I just asked a question about loading ink cartridges, the guy just ignored me, I wasn't letting it go and asked again, then he replied ''your ok luv, Iv explained it all to your husband'' he was very rude, then I overheard him saying to his work colleague, ''women really should stick to flower arranging'' some men have no respect for women.
But then theres Female Privilege which I enjoy, I never have to stand on a train, always get offered a seat and doors get opened for me. My husband does all the heavy dirty work in the house and garden, its nice have a guy around doing all that stuff that I hate doing.
Yeah... that's just my example. I don't say anything like that - I just over explain things so there's no question. Yes, I know you know how to press "ok" but I'm still going to say it. I'm going to just laugh when tech heads treat me like that... then school them.
Female privilege will be nice.
The only case of this I've encountered was when a (female) nurse kept on overexplaining things and acting like I had the understanding of a child. But she knew I was transgender, and I'm not sure if that factored into her actions or not.
Quote from: Carlita on October 16, 2013, 08:07:17 AM
One might also add that women are allowed a much wider range of presentation and activity, without sacrificing their femininity/femaleness than men are allowed before they are seen not to be sufficiantly male (I think we, of all people, know this). Women can wear what they like, act girly or butch, do 'guy' things ... In all sorts of ways the pendulum has swung in women's favour over the past few decades, which is great ... unless you have a son to worry about.
I totally agree with you on this.
Quote from: pretty pauline on October 16, 2013, 09:18:23 AM
Male Privilege yawn, lots of threads about this over the years.
Yeah I'm sure everything there is to say has already been said on this forum.
Quote from: pretty pauline on October 16, 2013, 09:18:23 AM
But then theres Female Privilege which I enjoy, I never have to stand on a train, always get offered a seat and doors get opened for me. My husband does all the heavy dirty work in the house and garden, its nice have a guy around doing all that stuff that I hate doing.
I wish I had a man around to do the dirty work and heavy lifting. :) Yes, female privileges are much nicer imo.
Quote from: Megan on October 16, 2013, 08:16:52 AM
Honestly it has felt like a curse to me. You must act this way, talk this way, walk this way, anything that strays from the mold and you get berated for it.
I have enjoyed very little of the male privileges throughout my life.
Exactly. Straight men are held to this nearly impossible standard of behavior and physical appearance.
Or maybe it was just impossible for me :) Ironically, it was the women I knew that would call me out on my behavior and make fun of me when they felt I was not acting like a man is supposed to. What a bunch of BS. It got so bad that I was constantly having to stop and think about everything I said or did to make sure it wouldn't be perceived as gay or feminine. Ugh! So glad I don't have to worry about that any more.
Could it be that our perception of male/female privilege has a great deal to do with who we are inside? I will admit, I was largely blind to male privilege until I married and suddenly had two wonderful daughters (5 and 6 years old when I married their mother). As they grew, I got a glimpse into the world of being a girl, something I (wrongly) thought I would never be privileged enough to experience.
I saw it again and again, through school, jobs, dating, etc. There *are* privileges for each gender baked in to society. Courteous men offer to help ladies move heavy objects and let them have their seats. Tacit implication: Women are not as strong, nor do they have the ability to stand on their own. Men are expected to be assertive. Tacit implication: Women who assert themselves are bitchy and unnatural.
Things are slowly changing for the better... but I think that no one will ever quite see male/female privilege in quite the way the trans community does. Is this one of the areas where we are uniquely qualified to contribute to a better, more equal future?
Quote from: robinmack on October 16, 2013, 01:40:13 PM
Things are slowly changing for the better... but I think that no one will ever quite see male/female privilege in quite the way the trans community does. Is this one of the areas where we are uniquely qualified to contribute to a better, more equal future?
I believe so!! I only have glimpses, but I think we're the most unique group of feminists out there!
Quote from: brianna1016 on October 16, 2013, 12:51:05 PM
Yeah I'm sure everything there is to say has already been said on this forum.
Sure has https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,73133.msg531834.html#msg531834
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,73134.msg515005.html#msg515005
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,69490.msg472662.html#msg472662
thats just a few links, I'm use to it now, guys explaining everything to me as if my brain was very small, some guys think a woman's brain doesn't think much further than nail polish, hair color, makeup, shoes and shopping, men just don't want to discuss technical stuff with women, thats my experience, but when the technical stuff breaks down, I just sit back and let them at it.
I think I did not experience much of that, as with other relatively young transitioners (I was 23, some now are in their teens) we dropped that privilege before it showed itself clearly. But yes of course there was some earlier on. I got the bigger room in the house than my sister, I could go home alone in the dark after a long night out and not fear much and that was about it. So it bugs me a lot if some feminists claim all transwomen have had male privilege or even still have "residual male privilege". I don't. When I transitioned I was broke, without many friends, my family was not talking to me much and I had no higher education. I got from that to where I am now without male privilege. But yes of course it does exist and it is often invisible and the longer we lived as male, the more we benefitted from it.
There are many "privileges." As was stated earlier, the ultimate privilege is to now know you have it. Do you, as a white person, ever get stared at by the corner store clerk when you enter a store? Does a male get a better deal at the mechanics than his wife? We can divide it even further; butch woman or effeminate gay man, protestant vs catholic (in certain parts of the word), Sunni or Shi'ite etc.
A myth I would like to see crushed is that MTFs experience male privilege. Do MTFs really? You are being told your entire life NOT to act a certain way, NOT to play with barbies, NOT to express your emotions, NOT to be week etc, etc. What you are experiencing, as a woman, is the vile oppression of the patriarchal society which the vast majority of us live in. You cannot really "enjoy" the privilege of being male because you are an imposter. What a lot of people cannot grasp is that this male privilege, though real, does not apply to trans people. We are as oppressed as our other sisters.
Quote from: missy1992 on October 16, 2013, 06:44:18 PM
There are many "privileges." As was stated earlier, the ultimate privilege is to now know you have it. Do you, as a white person, ever get stared at by the corner store clerk when you enter a store? Does a male get a better deal at the mechanics than his wife? We can divide it even further; butch woman or effeminate gay man, protestant vs catholic (in certain parts of the word), Sunni or Shi'ite etc.
A myth I would like to see crushed is that MTFs experience male privilege. Do MTFs really? You are being told your entire life NOT to act a certain way, NOT to play with barbies, NOT to express your emotions, NOT to be week etc, etc. What you are experiencing, as a woman, is the vile oppression of the patriarchal society which the vast majority of us live in. You cannot really "enjoy" the privilege of being male because you are an imposter. What a lot of people cannot grasp is that this male privilege, though real, does not apply to trans people. We are as oppressed as our other sisters.
We are still able to take advantage of it, while closeted and presenting male. We don't enjoy it... but we do get many of the advantages bestowed on men. It's not something you get consciously.
I wonder how much we lose just by being out to ourselves and some others, but presenting male. Undergoing aspects of transition? How much does our changing body language affect our privilege? How much does our change in appearance affect it? Privilege is not a conscious thing - nobody bestows it because they decide to do so. At some point the privilege is withdrawn completely or in part. Most of us probably only had a part of it, anyway (a big part, perhaps... but I never saved a lot on cars or auto repairs).
Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on October 16, 2013, 08:18:45 AM
The biggest male privilege ever is not to be aware of its existence, btw. And there is a grain of truth in that statement, believe or not ;).
Interesting. Well apparently I still have male privileges then because I was and still am unaware of them. I guess people still see me as a man.
Quote from: Joules on October 18, 2013, 02:07:31 AM
I'm not sure I ever bothered to use male privilege. I have always relied on "irascible, nerdy, curmudgeonly, very large person privilege". Not sure I'll continue with that personna, but I think it would be a direct translation. Hmmm.
I like your style :) I guess some of us earn the privileges we have by the result of our actions.
Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on October 16, 2013, 08:18:45 AM
The biggest male privilege ever is not to be aware of its existence, btw. And there is a grain of truth in that statement, believe or not ;).
This is true. Though I was extremely feminine as a guy, and I don't think I had very much of it, I had many of the sterotypical examples of lack of male privilege happen to me while I was still living as a guy. Also I think that the fact that I only spent 2-3 years in the adult world (and never in the business world) before transition was probablly a big factor as well.
Quote from: Joules on October 18, 2013, 02:07:31 AM
I'm not sure I ever bothered to use male privilege. I have always relied on "irascible, nerdy, curmudgeonly, very large person privilege". Not sure I'll continue with that personna, but I think it would be a direct translation. Hmmm.
LOL thanks Joules! And seriously there are other kinds of privilege as many have noted including race, height and outright aggression. Being well educated is a privilege that doesn't seem to hurt either?
Quote from: missy1992 on October 16, 2013, 06:44:18 PM
You cannot really "enjoy" the privilege of being male because you are an imposter.
That's kinda the point I was originally making. I think you said it better :)
Quote from: kabit on October 16, 2013, 01:54:40 PM
I believe so!! I only have glimpses, but I think we're the most unique group of feminists out there!
awesome I totally agree and feel blessed
I think the younger generation (the teenagers of today) are completely removing the worn out stereotypical gender roles that came before them. This is both exciting and worrisome to me. As for male privilege, I still believe its a myth :) What people are describing is minority stress. A wife and husband at an auto-shop for example. What if the mechanics were women?
Quote from: brianna1016 on October 18, 2013, 03:37:15 AM
As for male privilege, I still believe its a myth :) What people are describing is minority stress. A wife and husband at an auto-shop for example. What if the mechanics were women?
The fact that in most cases they are not is the whole issue. Male privilege would not be considered a bad thing if it was not linked to the position males have in this society. And yes, it is changing, feminism did achieve a lot since the 1960ies, but its not really done yet. Male privilege itself would be just like white privilege or female privilege or any other privilege that exists in that it gains access to some things not open to others (and usually is linked to the denial of access to other things). The problem is in the fact that for some of these privileges the gain far outweights the losses and to claim that our societies are already equal in terms of gender privileges is delusional. In some circles yes - in many academia places the differences have eroded quite a bit, in other areas not so much really. So the main thrust in the feminism fight is still patriarchy meaning that still being male has way more advantages in leading an independent life as an individual within this society compared to being female. This includes but is not solely based on stuff like the fears we have when walking alone at night, the occurence of sexual assaults, the wage differences, the ability to have certain jobs etc. In an egalitarian society, male privilege would cease to be a problem.
Quote from: brianna1016 on October 18, 2013, 03:37:15 AM
I think the younger generation (the teenagers of today) are completely removing the worn out stereotypical gender roles that came before them. This is both exciting and worrisome to me. As for male privilege, I still believe its a myth :) What people are describing is minority stress. A wife and husband at an auto-shop for example. What if the mechanics were women?
Women are not a minority, though perhaps "minority stress" should really be "underprivileged stress." Minority stress is a physical condition caused by the underprivileged social condition, not a social condition itself. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minority_stress (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minority_stress).
Privilege is real. It does not mean that anyone who is privileged didn't earn what they got... it just means that extraordinary effort from someone underprivileged is required to earn the same position (and then it may still be denied). I hate the argument that says those with privilege didn't earn what they got... and it seems to be one of the more popular arguments (yeah... let's change this by making the ruling class angry, defensive...)
Privilege takes many, many forms... some of which cannot and should not be fixed. I did not have to work as hard in school - not because I'm white or MAAB, but because I'm better than average at school. I'm not bragging, I'm privileged. It's an accident of birth, rather than birth in society. And it's not
that big a privilege, either. It helped in a lot of ways, but the bullies come after smart kids too. Socially it may be pretty neutral... I'm not good at or into sports, which is a bigger privilege in many ways.
Being transgender, or cis female, or a racial minority, or homosexual are all accidents of birth. It's the social problem that comes with these innate and unchangeable conditions that make up privilege. It's not an easily noticeable problem to those who fall on the other side of the condition. It's often not noticed by those who have the innate condition - how many women do you know who think they should be in the kitchen (especially those of older generations)? They were taught that those things are right and natural, and they believe it - just look at female Tea Party politicians and their statements for proof.
The big problems for cis women have been mostly fixed in America. They're able to do just about anything they choose. They have to work harder to achieve the same amount, but they can do it. Privilege, for women or many recognized minority groups, mostly takes a role of micro aggressions that both sides accept as natural. Roles are influenced by the media, or toy stores, or any number of societal differences. Teen role models also influence gender roles. These influences and aggressions are what put women and minorities in a lower caste than white men.
The big problems for LGBTIQ people have
not been mostly fixed... and the big problems are worst for those of us under the "T" umbrella. We are still portrayed on TV as black people would have been 70 years ago ("To Kill A Mockingbird" best illustrates this historical role - though it doesn't fall prey to it, of course). Transgender people are evil or freaks in the media, and I don't see that changing.
I've even given up on "The Big Bang Theory." It used to be about science - and the jokes were science friendly... then the season premier had them freaking out about some estrogen they ingested. I mean... they're supposed to be scientific and understand just about everything in science... name me one person like that who'd think one tiny dose of estrogen would start breast growth. Gender is polarizing and misunderstood in all aspects of our life.
In extremely over-simplified terms, I would say the core of male privilege is a certain amount of respect by default although you can quickly lose it by not living up to male expectations--being a provider/producer (making phat cash), competitive, tough and/or violent when society wants you to be (like in the military or police or coming to the defense of a woman who is threatened), risking or sacrificing yourself for women or children, things like that. The core of female privilege is a certain amount of inherent value by default--women's lives and well-being are treated as more precious--which you can lose by not living up to female expectations like being pretty, submissive, nurturing, and so forth.
Well, we could discuss the biggest source of privilege on the planet IMHO, WEALTH!
Some male privilege results in inequitable payment for doing the same jobs. Wealthy nations bristle with armaments and project power with ships and missiles. Directing wealth is power and privilege no matter the sex or gender of the director? How many people here do not not have the power/wealth to realize their transition dreams?
Not to derail an interesting thread but isn't wealth the most tangible and objective measurement of privilege?
It seems we are unable to read minds or precisely know another's motivation. If someone assists us, say opens a door for me because they think I am a weak woman but I think they are just being helpful, is it not beauty or projection in the eyes of the beholder once again?
And yes some of us are lucky enough to be born into all kinds of privilege. What we do with it matters most?
Quote from: Tessa James on October 18, 2013, 11:15:17 AM
Well, we could discuss the biggest source of privilege on the planet IMHO, WEALTH!
Some male privilege results in inequitable payment for doing the same jobs. Wealthy nations bristle with armaments and project power with ships and missiles. Directing wealth is power and privilege no matter the sex or gender of the director? How many people here do not not have the power/wealth to realize their transition dreams?
Not to derail an interesting thread but isn't wealth the most tangible and objective measurement of privilege?
It seems we are unable to read minds or precisely know another's motivation. If someone assists us, say opens a door for me because they think I am a weak woman but I think they are just being helpful, is it not beauty or projection in the eyes of the beholder once again?
And yes some of us are lucky enough to be born into all kinds of privilege. What we do with it matters most?
Yes! Being born into wealth guides more of your future than anything else! It's the ultimate privilege.
I don't think motivation matters. I would never degrade a woman - even at the height of my assumed maleness - yet I know I've been part of micro aggressions toward women. It's not often a conscious act. I also don't think many courteous or chivalrous acts promote degradation of women. Certainly not holding open a door - which I'll hardly notice at work since guys do that for guys all the time in my office... it's just a nice thing to do. (I'm almost expecting the opposite - where they'll purposefully shut the door in my face ;) that would be a conscious, and physical, micro aggression)
I'm thinking more along the lines of assuming someone can't do something or feels a certain way or would do something a certain way simply because they're female. This is evident in speech and comes across as micro aggression. The extreme cases are in auto repair and IT - where the men who work there often assume women don't know anything and either take advantage of that assumption (by charging more or offering unnecessary services) or belittle the women requesting the service.
Quote from: Joules on October 18, 2013, 11:40:36 AM
A microcosmic example of a functional society that fascinates me is the habit of a flock of geese when flying. The familiar wedge shape serves a functional purpose to assist the flock on a long flight. Rather than each individual member having to break wind, only the lead goose does so, the resulting benefit of the air already moving and rolling backwards makes the flight easier for the rest of the flock.
The lead position will be traded off among the physically stronger members, so that no one goose has to endure the more punishing task of breaking wind. Guess what? The lead position is always occupied by males (ganders). It seems likely that the greater physical strength of the male form is better suited to this important task.
What if "gander equality" became an issue, and the female geese insisted that all geese fly in parallel? The view is better, no more looking at the behind of the goose ahead, and the air is sweeter as it's no longer roiling off the sweaty male body of the lead goose. (I made that up, I doubt if geese sweat).
Although there is no way of knowing, it seems intuitive that the social status of flying lead would carry some percs. When arriving at the watering hole, the ganders who served as lead would have first crack at the better access points, as they would have greater need for hydration. The same thinking could be applied to resting for the night, comfy locations would go first to the ganders so that they could be rested for the next day. Finding a choice field of grain would mean preferential feeding for the lead ganders.
...which is not anti-feminist. If a woman is not physically able to do something, or out of courtesy, a man offering to help is not an anti-feminist or male-privileged act.
It brings up the question though:
Why is one side of the "V" of geese longer than the other?
Attitude also has an impact on the wage difference thing... I can tell you from my personal experience that I have made more money when I tried my damndest to present "alpha male" and *demand* that I be better compensated.
This was, obviously, not an easy thing for me. I don't like to make waves, I certainly don't enjoy presenting as male, alpha or otherwise. I have on occasion (discovered later when I had the position of authority to review employee files on taking a VP placeholder position) been able to confirm that at times I have made less than more assertive females at similar levels of employment.
So, it would appear at least some "male privilege" is the result of social conditioning of males to expect and demand more... and that women can employ this to their advantage too, if they are willing. But we first must overcome the conditioning that tells us to not make waves, to doubt our abilities, and to differ to others even when we know we are right. Interestingly, support sites for women in business also mention these things. Perhaps, as women with unique perspective we in the trans community can help here, too?
Here's hoping... women have come a *long* way thanks to our forebears, but we have a long way to go, too. Wouldn't it be lovely if the trans community were to be part of the final push to true equality? :)
Quote from: Joules on October 18, 2013, 11:57:25 AM
Is this a rhetorical question kabit? ;)
I don't know that answer. Perhaps it's a question of politics...
There's more geese on that side.
Quote from: kabit on October 18, 2013, 12:02:15 PM
There's more geese on that side.
Nope, silly! There are less geese on the other one!
Quote from: kabit on October 18, 2013, 11:47:48 AM
Why is one side of the "V" of geese longer than the other?
They're flying in the "Missing Goose" formation. This can most often be seen around Christmas, and the geese are well known to fly lower over houses cooking their roast potatoes in goose fat. Maybe they can smell the death throes of the fallen.
...
Okay, that was my utterly useless non-fact for the day.
Carry on.
Quote from: Sephirah on October 18, 2013, 01:07:35 PM
Quote from: kabit on October 18, 2013, 11:47:48 AM
Why is one side of the "V" of geese longer than the other?
They're flying in the "Missing Goose" formation. This can most often be seen around Christmas, and the geese are well known to fly lower over houses cooking their roast potatoes in goose fat. Maybe they can smell the death throes of the fallen.
Really?
Ummm... no. >_>
At least, I don't think so. I'm not sure there's a waterfowl understanding of military protocol. It would be cool if there were, though, lol.
Quote from: Sephirah on October 18, 2013, 01:15:35 PM
Ummm... no. >_>
At least, I don't think so. I'm not sure there's a waterfowl understanding of military protocol. It would be cool if there were, though, lol.
Thank god there isn't!
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.puppiesandflowers.com%2Fblogimages%2F09%2F01%2FhitchcockTheBirds2.jpg&hash=eb298363d0ce070e961abf3a3efc0e1ce3324ab5)
Or maybe geese are employing the "denied flank" formation?
Quote from: Sephirah on October 18, 2013, 01:15:35 PM
Ummm... no. >_>
At least, I don't think so. I'm not sure there's a waterfowl understanding of military protocol. It would be cool if there were, though, lol.
I mean them purposefully flying in close proximity to goose fat? :laugh:
Quote from: FA on October 18, 2013, 01:26:09 PM
I mean them purposefully flying in close proximity to goose fat? :laugh:
I so wish that were true. ;D Who knows, maybe it is.
Quote from: dalebert on October 18, 2013, 08:21:58 AM
In extremely over-simplified terms, I would say the core of male privilege is a certain amount of respect by default although you can quickly lose it by not living up to male expectations--being a provider/producer (making phat cash), competitive, tough and/or violent when society wants you to be (like in the military or police or coming to the defense of a woman who is threatened), risking or sacrificing yourself for women or children, things like that. The core of female privilege is a certain amount of inherent value by default--women's lives and well-being are treated as more precious--which you can lose by not living up to female expectations like being pretty, submissive, nurturing, and so forth.
That's a very good point you made
What is this male privilege? I never had it at all.
I get way way better treatment from everybody now and am loving it.
Being a girl rules! :D
Things that make you go "hmmm"
http://www.forbes.com/sites/kylesmith/2013/04/04/its-time-for-companies-to-fire-their-human-resource-departments/
Quote...economics researchers Bradley Ruffle at Ben-Gurion University and Ze'ev Shtudiner at Ariel University Centre sought to answer the question of whether being good looking could help you find a job. The answer surprised them: Not if you're a woman. Pretty women faced an uphill struggle to get a chance at a job.
QuoteWhat the hell is 'male privilege' anyway? I keep reading about people who have experienced the shock of not having this anymore after they began transitioning. Pretty sure I never had male privilege to begin with and/or never wanted it. Being 'male' never gave me any privileges, it was a chore that I despised greatly.
You mean you were never invited to the annual male privilege convention and taught the secret handshake either? Me either. ;)
You were invited. You didn't see the invitation because you didn't use your secret decoder ring.
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on November 13, 2013, 01:15:37 PM
You were invited. You didn't see the invitation because you didn't use your secret decoder ring.
They hand those out when you get your first letterman jacket on the football team.
Unfortunately, I was in band.
BANNED. Say it right.
I felt like I never had male privilege to start with.
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on November 13, 2013, 05:45:03 PM
BANNED. Say it right.
Okay. The football team BANNED me from getting male privilege. Or maybe I'm getting that mixed up with jock privilege. :)
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on November 13, 2013, 01:15:37 PM
You were invited. You didn't see the invitation because you didn't use your secret decoder ring.
Yep, I was never good with those things... and to think how much different my life could've turned out!
Here is an honestly interesting blog entry, written by Haley, a friend of mine on Facebook. Haley, and her wife Melissa, came from extremely evangelical fundamentalist backgrounds. Once they had married and had begun their lives together, a lot began to happen, including Haley, then a fundamentalist pastor, coming out as trans. Melissa's entire blog is worthy of an afternoon's reading, to watch her and Haley grow, come to grips with the real world as opposed to the world as it had been preached at them as children, coming to grips with Haley as trans, and many other things.
Occasionally Haley writes guest articles in that blog. This is one such, titled Oblivious To Privilege - Part One (http://www.patheos.com/blogs/permissiontolive/2013/03/oblivious-to-privilege-part-one.html). Oblivious To Privilege - Part 2 (http://www.patheos.com/blogs/permissiontolive/2013/03/oblivious-to-privilegepart-two.html) is also available.
Very interesting read Liz Marie, i booked marked it to read more of her blog entries.
Yeah Male privilege, or burden if you will. I was never really an over achiever I have achieved much in my 40 some years and have alot of friends tell me that my life reads like Forest Gump, been there done that. being a minority raised in mainstream white culture (was adopted at age eight) I saw many things that most children would never see. the disbelieving looks when I explained who my parents were. and always knowing that people were saying "oh he's adopted" so feeling like I don't fit always made me an outsider, free to, well, not fit in. not much of a free feeling when all I wanted to do was fit in. So I tried, I discovered a few cheats, I could use my Family Status as a privilege, and boom, doors open, "oh _____ are your parents?" also I learned that there was work that was "below me", "No leave that the girls will get it, I need your help in the barn" How could I tell them I'd rather help in the kitchen than work in the barn, power tools were scary, keeping up with my brothers was exhausting, hose play was too rough, and I'd rather talk about what I was feeling or thinking. And I always felt guilty that my sister would be doing chores for 3 while we shared the work of the same number.
Fast forward to these days in Transition. last summer while working I was viewed predominately as male and as usual and expected I rolled up my sleeves and dove into the work, missing mussel mass and an inability to gauge my strength/endurance would often make me fall short ot the "guys" a few times job assignments were handed out and light duty yet technical jobs would be given to some of the older guys (people my age actually now I think about it) while I was more often than not assigned to the labor along with the "Young Bucks" the final straw that prompted me to go to our Department head was being told to take the day off because I obviously couldn't keep up with the guys on that days work load. Here I was experiencing exclusion from male Privilege (work) and feeling upset about it, not because I was being excluded from working but because I was being denied entry into working as a woman within our Crew. (the ladies that day were tasked with inventory and logistics) When I layed out my indignation to our Department head he Looked a bit Shocked and said, "OMG, Your right that's just wrong." He then re assigned me to the Logistics team and pulled a few of the supervisors pet people of there and sent them out with the labor crew. at lunch our Department head told Everyone that there is a privilege that women in the crew had and that was to be utilized for their skills not their strength and that Every guy there was to afford me the same expectations and division of labor as any of the other girls on the crew. end story. turned out to be a very good work day.
Quote from: LizMarie on November 17, 2013, 05:27:45 PM
Here is an honestly interesting blog entry, written by Haley, a friend of mine on Facebook. Haley, and her wife Melissa, came from extremely evangelical fundamentalist backgrounds. Once they had married and had begun their lives together, a lot began to happen, including Haley, then a fundamentalist pastor, coming out as trans. Melissa's entire blog is worthy of an afternoon's reading, to watch her and Haley grow, come to grips with the real world as opposed to the world as it had been preached at them as children, coming to grips with Haley as trans, and many other things.
Occasionally Haley writes guest articles in that blog. This is one such, titled Oblivious To Privilege - Part One (http://www.patheos.com/blogs/permissiontolive/2013/03/oblivious-to-privilege-part-one.html). Oblivious To Privilege - Part 2 (http://www.patheos.com/blogs/permissiontolive/2013/03/oblivious-to-privilegepart-two.html) is also available.
This is a great article :)
It looks like the blog starts before she finds out Haley is transgender? Where does the evolution begin?
edit: go to "Our Love Story" at the top... and the "coming out" portion is there.
The blog started shortly after they married. Her "escape" from fundamentalism, their dealing with Haley's transition, Melissa discovering she loved Haley more as a woman (Melissa now identifies lesbian), it's all in there. She's often saddened when she sees other young couples who've been brainwashed into "perfect" marriages before they've even had the chance to discover themselves. We're friends on Facebook (Melissa and Haley both) and they've been absolutely wonderful people. I've been really thankful for the emotional honesty that they put out there for others to see.
Quote from: LizMarie on November 17, 2013, 09:14:43 PM
The blog started shortly after they married. Her "escape" from fundamentalism, their dealing with Haley's transition, Melissa discovering she loved Haley more as a woman (Melissa now identifies lesbian), it's all in there. She's often saddened when she sees other young couples who've been brainwashed into "perfect" marriages before they've even had the chance to discover themselves. We're friends on Facebook (Melissa and Haley both) and they've been absolutely wonderful people. I've been really thankful for the emotional honesty that they put out there for others to see.
Self discovery is difficult for us... as I'm sure they're aware (children in fundamental Christian families must have a harder time coming out than most anyone else). I don't blame marriage, I blame society's role in suppressing trans* children so effectively. My marriage will fail because my wife can't handle being considered a lesbian. I don't blame her for that. I still love her and I think she still loves me - but that's not enough.
We, as transgender spouses, are quick to be blamed for everything. I see all of us as victims of circumstance.
Quote from: kabit on November 17, 2013, 09:23:50 PM
Self discovery is difficult for us... as I'm sure they're aware (children in fundamental Christian families must have a harder time coming out than most anyone else). I don't blame marriage, I blame society's role in suppressing trans* children so effectively. My marriage will fail because my wife can't handle being considered a lesbian. I don't blame her for that. I still love her and I think she still loves me - but that's not enough.
We, as transgender spouses, are quick to be blamed for everything. I see all of us as victims of circumstance.
I agree, it's not marriage but marrying before we can make these discoveries and yes, society's pressures on everyone to fit specific little molds, not just trans either. Those are what make it difficult.
Quote from: Megumi on October 16, 2013, 08:16:52 AM
Honestly it has felt like a curse to me. You must act this way, talk this way, walk this way, anything that strays from the mold and you get berated for it.
I have enjoyed very little of the male privileges throughout my life.
I completely agree with you, and sadly I know I've been passed over for projects etc because I have not been able to act in their masculine fashion, and I know my boss picks on me because of this. /deep sigh.
I really hate and feel so uncomfortable with their idea of behaving like a man! I don't mind them behaving like this because they're kinda cute sometimes when they stamp their feet, but I wish they'd not raise their voices to make a point!
Quote from: LizMarie on November 17, 2013, 05:27:45 PM
Here is an honestly interesting blog entry, written by Haley, a friend of mine on Facebook. Haley, and her wife Melissa, came from extremely evangelical fundamentalist backgrounds. Once they had married and had begun their lives together, a lot began to happen, including Haley, then a fundamentalist pastor, coming out as trans. Melissa's entire blog is worthy of an afternoon's reading, to watch her and Haley grow, come to grips with the real world as opposed to the world as it had been preached at them as children, coming to grips with Haley as trans, and many other things.
Occasionally Haley writes guest articles in that blog. This is one such, titled Oblivious To Privilege - Part One (http://www.patheos.com/blogs/permissiontolive/2013/03/oblivious-to-privilege-part-one.html). Oblivious To Privilege - Part 2 (http://www.patheos.com/blogs/permissiontolive/2013/03/oblivious-to-privilegepart-two.html) is also available.
Thanks for posting
I have had it happen a few times to me in the last month. Once was with my brother in law while we were out on his houseboat. I was bringing it in to moor up, and he pushed me out of the way explaining how hard it is.... ( I taught him how to drive boats, I hold a merchant marine master license "officer rank" and have been driving boats for over 15 years.) I let him get the boat pulled in then he looked at me and laughed after he realized what he had done.
Another time was when my best friends starter died on his car (he is just now starting to accept me as Chloe we have been friends since the late 90s) He explained that it was a mans job to work on cars, even though I have been fixing his cars for years. I was a little annoyed untill I sat down with his wife, and a friend of mines girlfriend (a highschool ex who finally understood why I was so different) We just talked and enjoyed the show of watching them try to fix the car. I really loved feeling the level of acceptance from the other girls.
I experienced this recently in a couple of different ways. The first one was when I was sitting next to a group of guys discussing home repairs. There was a break in the conversation and silly me tried to ask a question about the work that was done and I was completely ignored - apparently it was not my place to be interested in such things. Last weekend I went to help some friends move and I was relegated to rigorous duties like holding doors open so people could carry things through them.
I have also experienced the flip side of that with having doors held open for me and having heavy things carried for me so I guess I really can't complain lol....
In my experience, male privilege is definitely real, and something I am seriously considering as I make my decision on transitioning. As a male, I don't really feel like I need to consider much of anything. I have been able to sleep with as many women as I like without being branded a whore or a slut, I don't have to consider my appearance nearly as much (rough and disheveled can be a look for a man), I have been paid more than my female colleagues in past jobs (not my current one though), my bosses do not condescend me or brush me off like they do my female counterpart, but I think most importantly, I have never worried about my safety or had to consider the safety of everyday situations. I know that will all be subject to change if I transition.
Women do get some niceties, but I don't really see them as impactful enough to call them privileges. I think the fact that people get so much more twisted about m-f than f-m illustrates that our society thinks that being female is somehow degrading or lesser. What other explanation is there that it is so much more offensive for a boy to act and dress like a girl than for a girl to act and dress like a boy? I think it says that to be a boy in our society is important, and to be a girl is not. Women and their accomplishments are not taken nearly as seriously in our society. It is sad.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FOZrdZ66.png&hash=ff470910cbc9fb120271b3df1259ee17b110c8a8)
Quote from: dalebert on May 11, 2014, 11:52:47 AM
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FOZrdZ66.png&hash=ff470910cbc9fb120271b3df1259ee17b110c8a8)
I probably shouldn't comment on this. But the vast majority of that stuff is men on men. Yes, there are females who kill. But it's a lot rarer than men killing. A man is much more likely to be the victim of a crime perpetrated by another man than a woman - mugging, assault, rape, murder, whatever. That doesn't mean women never do these things. Just that it's much more likely the perp will be male. Any person - male or female - is much more likely to be the victim of a crime perpetrated by a man than a woman.
So homicide victims - men killing men. Maybe more than they kill women. But also race stats say blacks kill blacks, whites kill whites. Men kill men.
And suicide - yeah men are more likely to succeed at suicide. Because they usually choose more direct and violent means than women. A woman is more likely to take a bunch of pills or slit her wrist and a man is more likely to just shoot himself.
Industrial and combat deaths - well, men are much more likely to have those sort of jobs than women. So of course they comprise most of the fatalities. And we're not living in draft times, so these occupations are chosen.
And custody? Ok this is one of very few areas where women prevail.
All that being said though, the concept of male privilege is oversimplified. And I'm not sure that 'privilege' was ever the right word to use. I think of it more like a marker - some people are born into this world (well in the US, at least) with certain markers. Like I said in a different thread, a white dude (in the US) is never a 'white dude'. He's himself. The default. He's the default and he can be who he is. Now if he's trans or gay, a marker is added. He's no longer the default. He's got this mark on him. He's different. Other.
Basically what I'm saying is that a white straight dude in the US - nobody ever gives a thought to these things he is - white, straight, male. Because it's just 'normal'. The default. So his personality is whatever his personality is, and he's whoever he is and nobody filters it through any markers. Nobody even thinks about it.
But a woman is born with a marker. A person of color (in the US at least) is born with a marker. Like the doctor might as well have just stamped a huge 'OTHER' mark on her forehead. A white boy is not born with a marker (in the US at least). He may later acquire markers - if he ends up gay, trans etc. But he's not born with this huge 'OTHER' stamped on his head. So he grows up as the default, as the normal. A girl grows up as the other. That's the difference really. It's not that males are privileged, but that females are unprivileged. Because they grow up in a society where they are always 'other'. Their femaleness defines them in a way that a guy's maleness doesn't. Because he's the default and she's not. You see what I'm saying?
Thank you FA...
Quote from: Jen on May 11, 2014, 01:09:25 PM
Thank you FA...
This.
Pretty much sums it up.
I Look at it for what it is though. Privilige? The hierarchy of a society. Patriachy is male ruled society and the ruler/rulers is set «norm«.
Not figurhead ruler and/or fallguy but rulers aka the governments majority.
FA pretty much described to marker system this hierarchy adopts.
I haven't the slightest idea what male priveledge is. I have never experienced it once in my life. Of course it could be the way I look too. But AMIIGAF.
Great summary FA!
That whole diagram is disingenuous and is a great argument if you are someone that likes to ignore context
Quote from: FA on May 11, 2014, 12:51:13 PM
I probably shouldn't comment on this. But the vast majority of that stuff is men on men.
I don't see how that's relevant at all to a conversation about who has privilege. It sounds like you're trying to blame me, an innocent and non-violent person, for crimes perpetuated by criminals because they happen to be the same gender as me. The vast majority is by a small percentage of criminals perpetrated on innocent people, and very likely a small percentage of criminals engaging in repeat behavior. And the fact is that, contrary to common perception, you're statistically safer walking the streets as a woman because discussion of violence is often gendered when it shouldn't be, e.g. "never hit a woman" resulting in a culture that is much more okay with violence against men than against women. Men are far more often the victims of violent crimes. There is male privilege in certain contexts and there is female privilege in certain contexts, and this is one of those where women are privileged.
QuoteYes, there are females who kill. But it's a lot rarer than men killing. A man is much more likely to be the victim of a crime perpetrated by another man than a woman - mugging, assault, rape, murder, whatever. That doesn't mean women never do these things. Just that it's much more likely the perp will be male. Any person - male or female - is much more likely to be the victim of a crime perpetrated by a man than a woman.
It's true but I don't think it's relevant to a discussion about who has privilege. It also brings up another area of female privilege that's not shown in that chart. Women are less likely to be convicted of the same crime and will statistically serve much shorter sentences for the same crime. The perception (that you are helping to perpetuate right now) that men are more prone to crime has become a self-fulfilling prophecy that skews the numbers somewhat.
QuoteAnd suicide - yeah men are more likely to succeed at suicide. Because they usually choose more direct and violent means than women. A woman is more likely to take a bunch of pills or slit her wrist and a man is more likely to just shoot himself.
I hear that fairly frequently as a way to hand-wave away a serious issue but it's not that simple. Suicide is often a cry for help, at least on some subconscious level, and a more drastic attempt could also be seen as a more sincere attempt at suicide. And I don't think many people will argue with the idea that men are much less likely to seek help when they feel troubled. Think about this.
TRIGGER WARNING
If you take a bunch of pills and it's either not a large enough dose or you get found before it's too late, your suicide attempt is now documented. If you're sitting there with your finger on the trigger of a gun that's in your mouth and you never quite build up the guts to pull the trigger, as a man in particular, you will likely never want someone to find out that you were about to "give up" and that case won't get documented.END trigger warning
QuoteIndustrial and combat deaths - well, men are much more likely to have those sort of jobs than women. So of course they comprise most of the fatalities. And we're not living in draft times, so these occupations are chosen.
This is true. A lot of the differences between men and women come down to choices. A man's attractiveness in the eyes of women is much more attached to things like bravery, heroism, ability to provide resources. Women are catching up or even ahead of men in many areas in prestigious jobs like doctors, lawyers, and engineers. Women are way ahead in education, graduating high school and college at a much higher rate. Jobs that are more grueling or dangerous are still overwhelmingly predominated by men. It's not (at least not mostly) due to discrimination. It's because women don't want those jobs. They're not under the same societal pressures as men that would make them make such unappealing choices.
QuoteAnd I'm not sure that 'privilege' was ever the right word to use.
On this, we agree. The word is used to "other" a group of people. Often it's used to invalidate their opinions. It's used to say they can't possibly understand what someone else is going through no matter how you explain it. It's used as justification for special treatment to compensate the non-privileged, often in unfair ways.
QuoteIt's not that males are privileged, but that females are unprivileged.
I think that's obviously not accurate based on hard statistical data.
QuoteBecause they grow up in a society where they are always 'other'. Their femaleness defines them in a way that a guy's maleness doesn't. Because he's the default and she's not. You see what I'm saying?
I do and I agree, but that doesn't mean they aren't privileged in some contexts like the ones already pointed out. I feel like we're on completely the wrong track in the process of trying to seek more legal and cultural equality of the genders. Women are treated like children for the large part. They are seen as vulnerable, helpless, lacking in agency (that's a big one), i.e. incapable of making important decisions and also being held responsible for those decisions. Men are raised to believe they're supposed to protect, shelter, and provide for women, even die for them if it comes to it. Obviously women don't receive the same respect as men in that environment. If we want a culture that respects women, we have to break out of this notion that they need to be cared for and coddled as if they're children. Instead of helping them to catch up, as if they're incapable of performing without help, we should be raising expectations.
The other side of this conversation that is alienating a lot of men from being able to relate is this idea that men have all the power. It's easy to point at Congress and show that it's male-dominated, but that's misleading. Most of men are the 99%, so to speak. Most are not in positions of power (Also, most of the men in those positions were voted in by a predominantly female voting force). Just as a tiny fraction of men are criminals and yet all men seem to get assigned the blame, a tiny fraction of men are in leadership positions, and yet all men are said to be holding tremendous power. The vast majority of men are doing crap jobs and the men who are in power don't care about them as much as they care about women, so that power is used ON BEHALF OF women, even when wielded by men. Plenty of those family judges who discriminate against other men are men who feel a duty to women! They see men as abusers or, at best, as providers of resources for women and children. They see women as helpless, vulnerable, eternal victims and needing of their manly protection.
Quote from: Jess42 on May 11, 2014, 01:56:40 PM
I haven't the slightest idea what male priveledge is. I have never experienced it once in my life. Of course it could be the way I look too. But AMIIGAF.
I Think you might be mistaking privilige with priviliged?
The sence of feeling priviliged.
Aka if you were hand picked to reprisent you home town for somthing and recieved an award for inspiring persons of the decade. You might feel priviliged. If that award was presented to mr ??? you wouldnt
Quote from: dalebert on May 11, 2014, 02:47:40 PM
If we want a culture that respects women, we have to break out of this notion that they need to be cared for and coddled as if they're children. Instead of helping them to catch up, as if they're incapable of performing without help, we should be raising expectations.
So stop looking at men as men and weman as woman? Because that is focusing on difference and counter productive, othering either or to start with? And to just see people.
Im way out of my depth hear. (sorry if i seem un educated. i am intrested and need to start somewear) cant wait for my lap top to reasearch in these areas.
edit to avoid dubble posting
Quote from: dalebert on May 11, 2014, 02:47:40 PM
The other side of this conversation that is alienating a lot of men from being able to relate is this idea that men have all the power. It's easy to point at Congress and show that it's male-dominated, but that's misleading. Most of men are the 99%, so to speak. Most are not in positions of power (Also, most of the men in those positions were voted in by a predominantly female voting force). Just as a tiny fraction of men are criminals and yet all men seem to get assigned the blame, a tiny fraction of men are in leadership positions, and yet all men are said to be holding tremendous power.
This is true, except for the predominantly female voting force part. I wouldn't call a 4-6% difference predominant, and also the candidates that we were allowed to vote for were chosen by men in the 1%, so do you really think that women choose who gets into office as you claim or is it the men in the 1% who provide the candidates that really choose who gets into office? Ah, context!
Now, it is funny that you ask the reader to ignore the "hard statistical data" and pay attention to context when the data is contrary to your argument, but when the "hard statistical data" supports your position, you demand the reader to accept your data without looking at context. See the problem there? The statistics you put out are equally meaningless when they are void of context. As for the rest of your post, there are far too many opinions, exaggerations and assumptions stated as fact to even begin.
I agree about the contuum thing...tbh in a lot of ways, I feel more privileged now. The 120 lb femmey gay boy doesn't exactly draw as much respect as the cute, leggy straight girl. So in terms of society's perception of me, 9 times out of 10, I'm treated better, now, tbh.
Though I didn't really actually *live* much, as male, like in terms of socialization. But in the small time I did I was the subject of a lot of external abuse.
Quote from: dalebert on May 11, 2014, 02:47:40 PM
Quote from: FA on May 11, 2014, 12:51:13 PM
I probably shouldn't comment on this. But the vast majority of that stuff is men on men.
I don't see how that's relevant at all to a conversation about who has privilege. It sounds like you're trying to blame me, an innocent and non-violent person, for crimes perpetuated by criminals because they happen to be the same gender as me.
It's relevant because you posted it. I wouldn't blame you anymore than I'd blame my father who has never seen the inside of a jail cell in his life. My father and most men (and you, I expect) are good. I, as a trans man, but still a man, am good. I would never hurt anybody. I would never kill anybody. But that doesn't change the fact that most who kill and hurt are men.
QuoteAnd the fact is that, contrary to common perception, you're statistically safer walking the streets as a woman because discussion of violence is often gendered when it shouldn't be, e.g. "never hit a woman" resulting in a culture that is much more okay with violence against men than against women. Men are far more often the victims of violent crimes. There is male privilege in certain contexts and there is female privilege in certain contexts, and this is one of those where women are privileged.
oh I agree with this as I was mugged as a man on streets I was safe as a woman. But who mugged me? Men. Not saying women never do this, but it is usually by men.
QuoteIt's true but I don't think it's relevant to a discussion about who has privilege. It also brings up another area of female privilege that's not shown in that chart. Women are less likely to be convicted of the same crime and will statistically serve much shorter sentences for the same crime.
I agree that that's a problem. But even if all those women were convicted, I doubt it would do much to fill up the discrepancy. Part of why that's a discrepancy is that women are just so much less likely to commit the crime. For whatever reason, women just don't assault, kill, rob as much as men. That doesn't mean they never do it. Just that, it's usually a man doing it. And usually not a woman. So, it's logical for the cops to conclude that the perp is a man. Because he usually is.
And even if the victim is usually a man also - that's relevant. Blacks mostly commit crimes against other Blacks. Whites mostly against other Whites. Men mostly against other Men. I don't think that says much about privilege. I mean think about it - it would be like saying whites mostly kill other whites. That doesn't mean they don't have privilege or that it's not a racial crime when a white man kills a black man.
When a man kills a woman - it's usually to do with her sex. Unless it's like some planned, mafia hit or something, she's usually raped - whether that was the motive or not. Anyway, I agree that it would be wrong and detrimental to assume women don't do this.
But it's like everything in the graphic you posted - all this is due to other men. Men kill other men. Men are killed in combat by other men. Men go to work in dangerous occupations because of other men. By contrast, women are killed/abused/assaulted/raped/robbed overwhelmingly by men. Once in a blue moon, you get a woman killer, but usually it's a man.
I have sooooo many things I want to say, but I am going to excuse myself from this convo because it is a topic that I feel very strongly about and I tend to lose my sh*t, and that is never good for anybody, especially me.
Yeah im going to have to do much more reasearch on the subject bofer i can contribut further (if i contributed at all). Its becoming perceptively heated and fast becoming argument as aposed to debate.
I will just say one thing...in the end, all of this is the product of the way our society worships the idea of an...idealized male. There is is also the idea of an idealized female but she is often subject to as much denigration as adoration.
But. This doesn't mean men are innately more privileged than women. This may seem like the case but it is inaccurate.
The real problem is with how our society is structured around masculinity vs femininity...a standard of masculine behavior that is idolized in our society in contrast with an objectifying, dehumanizing view of femininity.
But...herein lies the problem. What about men who don't appeal to a masculine ideal? Who are feminine and soft or emotionally sensitive? Simply, they, too, are the subject of mistreatmeant and abuse in our society. It's for this reason that women are allowed more expression of masculinity...because a woman that expresses masculinity is seen as appealing to a higher standard. She's told she won't ever measure up but isn't as demeaned for trying. Whereas in the opposite case, with a feminine male, it's seen as an insult and affront to the male ideal.
So everything...the oppressive standards placed on both men aand women...including, like another said, the idea that men can take pain and women can't or whateverelse...it's rooted in our society's obsession with masculinity.
The second we say neither is better than the other and neither should be slapped with ridiculous standards...the second we stop idolizing a traditional view of masculinity..is the second all genders will find equality. It's all rooted in this, fundamentally.
So, in essence, men are discriminated against, YES. But ultimately it's due to sexism against females and femininty and idolizing 'traditional' men and masculinity...it is NOT evident of a wider prejudice posed specifically against men, simply the crappy system that benefits them and harms women coming back to bite poor, unfortunate individuals.
Quote from: FA on May 11, 2014, 05:00:38 PM
But it's like everything in the graphic you posted - all this is due to other men. Men kill other men. Men are killed in combat by other men. Men go to work in dangerous occupations because of other men. By contrast, women are killed/abused/assaulted/raped/robbed overwhelmingly by men. Once in a blue moon, you get a woman killer, but usually it's a man.
If you're in a culture where you're more likely to be hired for being a man, in that context, wouldn't you call that privilege? Then why wouldn't you call it privilege when discrimination works in a woman's favor, e.g. less likely to be the victim of a violent crime?
http://www.vocativ.com/underworld/crime/hard-truth-girl-guy-rape/
I still don't understand why you keep saying "men are doing it" in trying to understand privilege. A tiny fraction of men are in leadership roles and a tiny fraction of men are criminals. When you talk about male privilege, I take that to mean that, in GENERAL, males have privilege. So what does that have to do with the huge majority of men who don't have political power and aren't criminals who live in a world that sucks for us in many ways and that is largely beyond our power to change? First off, I would of course agree that in certain contexts men do have privilege, and I would just add that in certain other contexts, women do, and it's important to be honest about that if we want to affect change. Yes, there is male privilege and yes, there is female privilege.
In a world where the average man works to provide for the average woman, does all the dangerous jobs so she don't have to, and even feels obligated to die to protect her if necessary, that's a privileged existence for a woman in those contexts. If a man gets chosen over a woman for a job despite not being as qualified, that a privilege he enjoys in that context. Also, in general, men are treated with more respect than women so that's another context where men enjoy privilege.
Quote from: Kylie on May 11, 2014, 04:16:37 PM
This is true, except for the predominantly female voting force part. I wouldn't call a 4-6% difference predominant, and also the candidates that we were allowed to vote for were chosen by men in the 1%, so do you really think that women choose who gets into office as you claim or is it the men in the 1% who provide the candidates that really choose who gets into office? Ah, context!
I admit that was probably too strong a word. I should have said "majority". But how many women are running for office? I honestly don't know but I'd be very shocked if it's anywhere near how many men are running for office. How many women are applying for sanitation worker? A lot of these factors are influenced by the choices men and women make. To what degree those choices are influenced by gender expectations in our culture and to what extent it is biological is a complicated question. I'd like to think these things can change significantly if we loosen our gender expectations.
Quote from: Kylie on May 11, 2014, 02:46:27 PM
That whole diagram is disingenuous and is a great argument if you are someone that likes to ignore context
What's disingenuous about it? I don't have any more power over the tiny fraction of people that make things suck for me as a guy than a woman. Do you think I can dial the phone with my penis and somehow get straight through to my senator who will just do what I want because I'm a fellow dude? Do you think I can just flash my wiener at a mugger and he'll stop because I'm a dude? You're using "context" differently than I am. Maybe the word I should be using is "situations". There are situations in which you will experience privilege as a male, and situations in which you will experience privilege as a female.
Quote
Now, it is funny that you ask the reader to ignore the "hard statistical data" and pay attention to context when the data is contrary to your argument
When did I do that? That's what you're doing right now.
Quotebut when the "hard statistical data" supports your position, you demand the reader to accept your data without looking at context.
Just explain what's wrong with something I said then. Don't just wave your hand at my carefully crafted post to dismiss it and expect to be taken seriously.
First let me apologize, I know I can be very abrasive when I debate some topics. It is something i will probably have to keep in check when i transition as it is less tolerated in women than in men. Another part of the privilege i will lose. I will try and explain my major points of contention with your posts, but not all because I hate long posts and I think you are entrenched in your point of view.
Quote from: dalebert on May 11, 2014, 06:55:25 PM
In a world where the average man works to provide for the average woman, does all the dangerous jobs so she don't have to, and even feels obligated to die to protect her if necessary, that's a privileged existence for a woman in those contexts.
Gross exaggeration, men and women have an almost equal unemployment rate, women had a lower unemployment rate for the previous 5 years. They both provide, the woman's contribution is just marginalized as you just did in this quote. As for dangerous jobs and feeling obligated to die? How does one debate this? You can't, so what is the point? Who knows if the average man feels this? You don't know this and you can't quanitfy it. It is a generalization that I suspect isn't true. That is why I was dismissive of many of your arguments, because they are your opinion presented as facts. I can't provide you data to say men dont feel obligated to die for women, but I can point out that women are more likely to be assaulted by their intimate partner than a stranger, I think they are more likely to be killed by an intimate partner as well, but I am not 100% sure about that. The CDC just put out the stat that 1 in 5 women have been raped in their lifetime, the Arizona dept of human services says that 1 in 4 women will be the victim of domestic violence. Single mothers are very vulnerable to poverty and homelessness. I would say that a lot of men are not nearly as chivalrous as you think they are. Am I saying that the average male is a rapist, deadbeat dad or wife beater? No, but this notion of women as some protected, unharmable class is nonsense. (This quote is one example of the generalization, exaggeration and opinion as fact that I took issue with)
Quote from: dalebert on May 11, 2014, 06:55:25 PM
What's disingenuous about it?
You use the statistic that men are 3 times more likely to be the victim of homicide as the only "hard data" to substantiate your opinion that the world is a more violent place for men than women. It is disingenuous because homicides account for 1-2 percent of violent crime. Possible other context to look at when analyzing this statistic...........men are more aggressive and confrontational, men engage in riskier behaviors than women, men are more likely to carry a gun, men are more likely to join gangs, many women take extra measures for safety to avoid being a victim. Although an argument can be made that men inherently face more violence, the homicide statistic alone is meaningless in backing the argument. Do you think a mugger or murderer who is thumbing his nose at statutory law will all of a sudden target a man because of some socially accepted law of chivalry not to harm women? He is a violent criminal! He is targeting the easiest mark! I would argue that men put themselves in more dangerous situations, and that women are more cautious of their surroundings. That is my theory for the higher violence against men, not a fact, my theory.
Quote from: dalebert on May 11, 2014, 06:55:25 PM
When did I do that? That's what you're doing right now.
When you presented facts without context as pointed out above ^ and said that the "hard data" says that you are right. The hard data you presented represents 1-2% of violent crime according to the FBI. And no, I didn't just do that, I said that your analysis was correct, and that you were correct to put the data into context. Without context, the statistic you cited could be used to say that "men" control congress, when in reality it is a small subset of "wealthy men" that do. Also, more men commit crimes, but most men are not criminals, you were right to add the context that it is a small percentage of men that commit crimes. Your context clarified and supported your argument well. The stats in the diagram you posted have context to them as well, they are not clear cut proof of some female privilege in those areas.
Abby, I think you have it right on. The term male privilege is very misleading. it is reserved to those that adhere to the rules of the norm. Certainly feminine men and some minority men are treated worse than those that are close to the female ideal of our society. The further one gets from the ideals, the less privilege they have for sure.
Quote from: Kylie on May 11, 2014, 09:17:33 PM
Abby, I think you have it right on. The term male privilege is very misleading. it is reserved to those that adhere to the rules of the norm. Certainly feminine men and some minority men are treated worse than those that are close to the female ideal of our society. The further one gets from the ideals, the less privilege they have for sure.
+1
Privilege isn't the right word indeed. I know some people feel it is the right word and males straight up have it better than females.
But it's a two way street they are two different genders and they are treated differently. There are some things that suck about being a guy (Even if you wanna be a guy) too and some things that make women I guess "Privileged" in a way of their own. Don't get me wrong I do completely believe they should be treated the same, but I don't actually believe either gender has it "easier or harder" than the other. Even though some people do believe that.
I liked what FA said about markers. I also agree with folks like abby that it's a continuum. The problem with trying to lump anything into a group is there are exceptions. Having said all that, I will bring up a point that hasn't been discussed yet, which is medical care.
"Women having heart attacks are less likely than men to get immediate treatment and more likely to die in the hospital, says a groundbreaking new study that tracked more than 1.1 million patients." USA report (http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/health/story/health/story/2012-02-21/Women-less-likely-to-get-immediate-heart-attack-treatment/53195656/1)
"The report from Boston's Brigham and Women's Hospital finds fewer women than men are involved in clinical trials on new drugs and medical devices.'(http://commonhealth.wbur.org/2014/03/medical-research-gender-gap)
And for fun, one last article
"The oft-cited study "The Girl Who Cried Pain: A Bias Against Women in the Treatment of Pain" found that women were less likely to receive aggressive treatment when diagnosed, and were more likely to have their pain characterized as "emotional," "psychogenic" and therefore "not real."
Instead of appropriate care for physical pain, this can lead to treatment for mental health issues that might not even exist. The situation is further complicated by the fact that antidepressants are absorbed differently in women and vary in effectiveness, depending on hormonal cycles.
The routine attribution of abdominal pain from conditions like appendicitis or gastrointestinal disease to gynecological problems can also delay or complicate the diagnostic process. A 2008 study published in the journal Academic Emergency Medicine, designed to gauge gender disparities among emergency room patients complaining of abdominal pain, found that even after adjusting for race, class and triage assessment, women were still 13 to 25 percent less likely than men to receive high-strength "opioid" pain medication. Those who did get opioid pain relievers waited an average of 16 minutes longer to receive them." http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/17/opinion/sunday/women-and-the-treatment-of-pain.html?_r=0
These are all articles written in the last 3 years. I didn't even look very hard.
Quote from: Kylie on May 11, 2014, 09:17:33 PM
Abby, I think you have it right on. The term male privilege is very misleading. it is reserved to those that adhere to the rules of the norm. Certainly feminine men and some minority men are treated worse than those that are close to the female ideal of our society. The further one gets from the ideals, the less privilege they have for sure.
Sorry but I have to disagree. Having privilege is not the same thing as using privilege for your own gains. Privilege is freedom, it is more opportunities, more choices, more prospects, greater raw accessibility, lesser difficulty along the same paths if you chose to take them. Being a man is a privilege whether you gain from it or not. It is a male privilege, not a masculine male privilege, though there are certainly privileges for naturally masculine men as well. But most male privileges apply to and are available to feminine men too. They are privileges earned simply by being perceived as male. Any type of male.
Quote from: sad panda on May 11, 2014, 11:37:42 PM
Sorry but I have to disagree. Having privilege is not the same thing as using privilege for your own gains. Privilege is freedom, it is more opportunities, more choices, more prospects, greater raw accessibility, lesser difficulty along the same paths if you chose to take them. Being a man is a privilege whether you gain from it or not. It is a male privilege, not a masculine male privilege, though there are certainly privileges for naturally masculine men as well. But most male privileges apply to and are available to feminine men too. They are privileges earned simply by being perceived as male. Any type of male.
Are those privileges really available to all men though? They certainly aren't available equally. In my experience, gay males and African American males seem to have less opportunities, choices, prospects, etc. than the Caucasian women I know. Some privileges will always be there, but as they have more difficulties along their paths because of other societal barriers, I kind of feel like lumping them in as part of some chosen crowd is a kinda wrong. I agree with most of what you said, I just think it applies to Caucasian males "the societal norm or ideal" that adhere to gender roles more than other males. The further you stray from that, the less you benefit is what I am saying.
Quote from: Kylie on May 12, 2014, 12:07:17 AM
Are those privileges really available to all men though? They certainly aren't available equally. In my experience, gay males and African American males seem to have less opportunities, choices, prospects, etc. than the Caucasian women I know. Some privileges will always be there, but as they have more difficulties along their paths because of other societal barriers, I kind of feel like lumping them in as part of some chosen crowd is a kinda wrong. I agree with most of what you said, I just think it applies to Caucasian males "the societal norm or ideal" that adhere to gender roles more than other males. The further you stray from that, the less you benefit is what I am saying.
Sure, but you still benefit from being male. Privilege means, all things being equal, that single factor is a privilege. Being male is a privilege, all things being equal.
So, a white male has privilege over a white female. A black male has privilege over a black female. A gay male has privilege over a gay female. You can still have the disadvantages of being black, gay, or any other deviation from the most privileged combination of factors... but being male itself is a privilege.
And it's true that being feminine loses some of that privilege, because it's essentially being less male, so yah, less male privilege..... but in terms of most male privilege, because our society is extremely binary, that doesn't mean much of anything. It's an M on your resume no matter what kind of M you are, and that will always be a privilege. Just having a male name is a huge privilege. Even just having the ability to pretend to conform to the norm is a privilege over not having the ability to. Just having the ability to make people perceive you as a male. So a female given a male name would actually experience some male privilege, just like a male who can't pass as male, or can't get by without people questioning if he is truly male, would lose some.
But being male itself is absolutely a privilege. That doesn't mean it necessarily matters significantly on an individual level though in the ultimate question of just being happy............ but it does always carry with it a set of advantages that almost all males have access to and almost all females do not. And I would say there are some female privileges too, they just are not as extensive as male privileges because our society definitely is male-biased.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Actually gonna go on a little personal tangent here...
Just to give an example of one thing I had to rethink when it comes to male privilege. And saying "female privilege."
I used to think that women having unquestioned access to both gender's clothes and to makeup and accessories and stuff was sort of a female privilege. But, at that point in time, I had only experienced one side of it. The male side.
Living as a girl definitely changed my view, and now I actually believe that not having access to feminine clothes, accessories, bags, makeup, all that stuff... is actually a MALE privilege.
It's not because men shouldn't have access to those... it's because they are exclusive to women *because* women are objectified in a way that men do not experience. The fact that they are exclusive is due to a male privilege, not a female privilege.
What I mean is... men have the *privilege* of not reasonably having to question their own worth or acceptability based on their commitment to buying and wearing/using a whole host of ornamental clothes, accessories, makeup, shoes, bags, etc. Men do not have to worry about being judged in the way that women are over not wearing makeup, or for trying too hard by wearing makeup, or for having bad fashion sense, or imperfect hair, or imperfect skin, or not accessorizing right, or even just not wanting to use certain grooming products. Or having/wanting to have certain beauty treatments. These things are used as indicators of a woman's validity as a woman, and there is no way for a woman to opt out if she just doesn't enjoy those things, or just doesn't feel like it one day, she is still judged for them. And she still has be aware that she may/will be judged for them.
What I experienced was that, these things went from being something I enjoy to be creative with and wanted to have access to, to something that I actually was required to think about and participate in as an indicator of my worth. The pressure pretty quickly zapped away a lot of the fun. That doesn't mean I don't still like fashion, but I'm just saying that when it comes down to it, it can actually be an incredibly pernicious presence in a woman's inner experience. It is used to evaluate and sometimes invalidate even women who have no interest in it.
So that's an example of a "female privilege" that isn't really even a privilege. There are a lot of things that men don't have access to simply because they are too respected as individuals with complex and deep inner worth.
Sorry for the tangent lol. Just something I was thinking about, not necessarily related to anyone's posts. :)
My understanding is that privilege is basically society's "default", and might not really even be that great a word, but it's here. If you are in the default you basically don't need to think about or consider your position (well it might be good if you did, but as a society the expectation is that you don't need to). I actually think the best example of privilege is "flesh colored band aids (plasters)". It's assumed that these are Caucasian-ish flesh colors and if you wanted something else you'd need to search for it. Perhaps it's a bit silly an example, but it shows something about ease of expectations and challenges. Privilege is "stacked" so the "set" really does matter more than one or two individual ones here. Male is default arguably, but not more so than white, middle class, able bodied, cis, straight, Christian (in the US), American, neurotypical, etc. A white straight cis middle class able bodied neurotypical female has very many defaults.
--Jay
Quote from: ButterflyVickster on May 11, 2014, 02:53:21 PM
I Think you might be mistaking privilige with priviliged?
The sence of feeling priviliged.
Aka if you were hand picked to reprisent you home town for somthing and recieved an award for inspiring persons of the decade. You might feel priviliged. If that award was presented to mr ??? you wouldnt
No, I know the difference between privilege and being privileged. It's just that I have never experienced male privilege in my life and I was definately not born into one of those privileged families.
Of course being and actually proud of living on the outer fringes of society may indeed have something to do with it too. I am far from the accepeted norms of society, you know 9-5 job, house with a white picket fence, never ever wore a tie in my life and went to my senior prom in ripped up jeans at the knees, and a t shirt.
I definately do not look like the typical middle class american male and looking back may be the reason I have never experienced the "male privilege" deal.
Quote from: Jess42 on May 12, 2014, 07:05:12 AM
No, I know the difference between privilege and being privileged. It's just that I have never experienced male privilege in my life and I was definately not born into one of those privileged families.
Of course being and actually proud of living on the outer fringes of society may indeed have something to do with it too. I am far from the accepeted norms of society, you know 9-5 job, house with a white picket fence, never ever wore a tie in my life and went to my senior prom in ripped up jeans at the knees, and a t shirt.
I definately do not look like the typical middle class american male and looking back may be the reason I have never experienced the "male privilege" deal.
You have experienced male privilege as a result of living as male. That doesn't necessarily mean you benefitted from it a lot, but you did experience it. You cannot live and do things as male without experiencing male privilege. I don't see why people push against that. It doesn't mean you are a bad person or anything. :s
Seriously, I experienced male privilege even though I was seriously isolated thru my entire adolescence. I experienced, for example, not reasonably having to worry about whether I would be the victim of a random sexual assault when i went out, or whether most men were only talking to me because they wanted sex from me. Or not having my worth judged on whether or not I wore makeup, my breast size, or how revealing my clothes were. That doesn't mean I went out much or talked to men often, but when I did those things, I had a certain set of privileges for being male, everyone who is perceived as male has them. It doesn't mean i had a good or easy life, it was just one advantage in a long list of advantages and disadvantages.
I had an elementary school education, never had a job in my life, and was seriously undersocialized, that doesn't mean I can say i experienced no male privilege. I did.
Quote from: sad pandaWhat I mean is... men have the *privilege* of not reasonably having to question their own worth or acceptability based on their commitment to buying and wearing/using a whole host of ornamental clothes, accessories, makeup, shoes, bags, etc. Men do not have to worry about being judged in the way that women are over not wearing makeup, or for trying too hard by wearing makeup, or for having bad fashion sense, or imperfect hair, or imperfect skin, or not accessorizing right, or even just not wanting to use certain grooming products. Or having/wanting to have certain beauty treatments. These things are used as indicators of a woman's validity as a woman, and there is no way for a woman to opt out if she just doesn't enjoy those things, or just doesn't feel like it one day, she is still judged for them. And she still has be aware that she may/will be judged for them.
This is exactly right. I basically had to "opt out" of all that, because it has always been too painful for me to wear women's clothes. I just can't do it -- not even women's trousers or underwear. And that has affected my entire life: I could never "pass" as sufficiently female to be a socially acceptable one.
As a trans guy, I feel way more comfortable, but I'm not expecting a lot of "male privilege" as compared to "trans non-privilege." For one thing, I wasn't raised to expect it.
Men in this culture are just raised to take up more space than women, socially as well as physically.
Perhaps it would be good to separate the idea of advantage. As a male, it may not felt like an advantage. In fact, as a trans person, you may have felt disadvantage. The thing with priviledge in the way it's used for male/white/etc privilege is that if it's functioning there's a good chance you won't know.
You won't know, that when you went to the mechanic, you were given a cheaper rate and a more complete explanation. When you go to the doctor for headaches, you won't know that the doctor listened more closely and did more tests. You won't know that when you walked to your car after the movie, you weren't verbally harassed by a group of guys. How can you know? Unless you did the exact same thing as a female you won't experience it as privilege.
And I know that some of you are saying, but I have been harassed walking to my car. And I agree, there is also a masculine privilege and you know that because you've experienced the lack of it. If some masculine guy came here saying, how he's grown up poor and native american and he hasn't experience masculine privilege the same argument holds true. He hasn't felt the benefits of masculine privilege but he's experienced it.
And for all you trans-ladies, none of us are doubting that your experience as a guy was lousy. None of us are judging you for being a MAAB
You know, I think that I can sum up the whole "male" privilege and "female" privilege with one saying: The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. For those of us that are M2F, we, or at least I would give anything to have that "female" privilege, worrying about clothing trends, makeup, hair and everything else that ciswomen may find to be a pain in the butt. On the other hand those of us that are F2M I can't really say for sure, but would probably give anything to have that "male" privilege of not to have to worry about how thier hair looks, or applying makeup or what shoes are trendy and so on.
Regardless of what side your on, 'privilege' is much like beauty in that it is in the eye of the beholder and what your perceptions are of that privilege. Like I said, the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence, but grass always grows greener over a sewer. I don't see male privilege as a privilege as much as a living hell. I'm sure that F2M, although I can't speak for them but dare to guess, see female privilege as the same.
This is just my opinion but I believe what we are calling male and female privilege isn't really privilege at all but rather what we desire the most and that is being and experiencing our prefered gender no matter how much of a pain in the butt it is. To me it is just another part of GID.
Quote from: Jess42 on May 12, 2014, 09:20:25 AM
You know, I think that I can sum up the whole "male" privilege and "female" privilege with one saying: The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. For those of us that are M2F, we, or at least I would give anything to have that "female" privilege, worrying about clothing trends, makeup, hair and everything else that ciswomen may find to be a pain in the butt. On the other hand those of us that are F2M I can't really say for sure, but would probably give anything to have that "male" privilege of not to have to worry about how thier hair looks, or applying makeup or what shoes are trendy and so on.
Regardless of what side your on, 'privilege' is much like beauty in that it is in the eye of the beholder and what your perceptions are of that privilege. Like I said, the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence, but grass always grows greener over a sewer. I don't see male privilege as a privilege as much as a living hell. I'm sure that F2M, although I can't speak for them but dare to guess, see female privilege as the same.
This is just my opinion but I believe what we are calling male and female privilege isn't really privilege at all but rather what we desire the most and that is being and experiencing our prefered gender no matter how much of a pain in the butt it is. To me it is just another part of GID.
The grass may be greener all things considered but male privilege is real. Dismissing it is harmful and only perpetuates it... :/
It doesn't stop being an advantage just because you don't like being male. You, for example, don't start having to worry about being raped by your own family members just because you don't like being male. You wouldn't stop being treated like a responsible, respectable human being even if you resented the fact that people won't objectify you for your tits and ass.
No need to apologize sad panda, your tangent added a very important insight to the debate. I see what you are saying, and I agree with it 100%. I think we just have two different paths of focus when talking about it once other reasons for discrimination enter in. My point of view I guess comes from who I present as at the moment. I present as a fairly attractive, athletic, educated, heterosexual, white male, and right now, I am coming to terms with becoming the "other" if I transition (Another reason I found your insight valuable and important). Some days i feel scared about losing it, and other days I feel very guilty, like i have a duty to come out and be counted with my fellow trans people. Whether i transition or not, I am beginning to feel as though it is not right to silently accept the privileges while others suffer discrimination. I know I have benefitted from male privilege so much more than a feminine male or an African American male, so I can guess my focus on their experience is in the discrimination they face which often negates or goes beyond any benefit they might experience. You are right though, in many respects it is still there. I just hate to lump them in with me, because I know I have it so much easier.
Quote from: sad panda on May 12, 2014, 09:51:04 AM
The grass may be greener all things considered but male privilege is real. Dismissing it is harmful and only perpetuates it... :/
It doesn't stop being an advantage just because you don't like being male. You, for example, don't start having to worry about being raped by your own family members just because you don't like being male. You wouldn't stop being treated like a responsible, respectable human being even if you resented the fact that people won't objectify you for your tits and ass.
On the contrary sad panda, males can get just as sexually ojectified as females, male children are just as apt to be molested by their own family members too. I have a good friend this happened to and it messed him up just as bad as it would a female. I actually had to talk him out of suicide. It's in the news all the time, ask any CPS worker if it happens to male children. Ask me if it happens because I myself was molested when I was 12 by a stepbrother that was in his twenties because I was "pretty" like a girl. So there you go. Never talked about it, never told anyone, dealt with it the best way that I could because I was supposedly a male and was forced to (just fill in the blanks, cause I still can't say what he did and made me do) by another male and in no way at that time could I have dared mentioned it. Not just one time either. Hell I tried blocking it out of my own mind because I was so freakin' ashamed. Not to mention what may happen from him if I did tell anyone. Just another twelve year old runaway whose bones they may find twenty years later while building a new subdivision. What sux about the whole deal is if I would have been 16 or 17 it may have been something consensual since no blood relation involved, but it was taken and nothing consensual about it just innocence lost. So yeah, for several months I had to worry about being "raped" by a family member, until he moved out and thank god far away.
Quote from: Jess42 on May 12, 2014, 11:13:03 AM
On the contrary sad panda, males can get just as sexually ojectified as females, male children are just as apt to be molested by their own family members too. I have a good friend this happened to and it messed him up just as bad as it would a female. I actually had to talk him out of suicide. It's in the news all the time, ask any CPS worker if it happens to male children. Ask me if it happens because I myself was molested when I was 12 by a stepbrother that was in his twenties because I was "pretty" like a girl. So there you go. Never talked about it, never told anyone, dealt with it the best way that I could because I was supposedly a male and was forced to (just fill in the blanks, cause I still can't say what he did and made me do) by another male and in no way at that time could I have dared mentioned it. Not just one time either. Hell I tried blocking it out of my own mind because I was so freakin' ashamed. Not to mention what may happen from him if I did tell anyone. Just another twelve year old runaway whose bones they may find twenty years later while building a new subdivision. What sux about the whole deal is if I would have been 16 or 17 it may have been something consensual since no blood relation involved, but it was taken and nothing consensual about it just innocence lost. So yeah, for several months I had to worry about being "raped" by a family member, until he moved out and thank god far away.
I'm sorry :( and I understand exactly where you are coming from... believe me, I am the last person who would argue it can't happen to boys... but it's not the same thing. It happens to males, but not nearly often enough that the average male has to worry about it like the average female. Just because it happens to males doesn't negate the privilege of it happening significantly less. Boys and men do not have to worry about it unless and until it happens to them, which most boys and men will never have to experience. But girls and women are forced to think about and worry about it even if it has never happened to them because they are at such a high risk.
Quote from: Kylie on May 12, 2014, 10:45:50 AM
No need to apologize sad panda, your tangent added a very important insight to the debate. I see what you are saying, and I agree with it 100%. I think we just have two different paths of focus when talking about it once other reasons for discrimination enter in. My point of view I guess comes from who I present as at the moment. I present as a fairly attractive, athletic, educated, heterosexual, white male, and right now, I am coming to terms with becoming the "other" if I transition (Another reason I found your insight valuable and important). Some days i feel scared about losing it, and other days I feel very guilty, like i have a duty to come out and be counted with my fellow trans people. Whether i transition or not, I am beginning to feel as though it is not right to silently accept the privileges while others suffer discrimination. I know I have benefitted from male privilege so much more than a feminine male or an African American male, so I can guess my focus on their experience is in the discrimination they face which often negates or goes beyond any benefit they might experience. You are right though, in many respects it is still there. I just hate to lump them in with me, because I know I have it so much easier.
Thanks for adding that. I think it's great to see someone acknowledging that these things do affect them though! Acknowledging it is half of the battle. A lot of people who have lived as male for a long time are not willing or able to even acknowledge the existence of male privilege for some reason.
There's also no reason to have guilt about it, though. Guilt about encouraging it or reaffirming it is another thing though. You aren't guilty for having several advantages, just like I'm not guilty for being white. All we can do is be aware of these things and do our best not to let them influence how we treat other people, you know?
Quote from: sad panda on May 12, 2014, 12:04:05 PM
I'm sorry :( and I understand exactly where you are coming from... believe me, I am the last person who would argue it can't happen to boys... but it's not the same thing. It happens to males, but not nearly often enough that the average male has to worry about it like the average female. Just because it happens to males doesn't negate the privilege of it happening significantly less. Boys and men do not have to worry about it unless and until it happens to them, which most boys and men will never have to experience. But girls and women are forced to think about and worry about it even if it has never happened to them because they are at such a high risk.
I really beg to differ with you on that sad panda. How is it not the same thing? At twelve years old, I was still innocent and the world was still a fairly safe place and full of promise and that innocence was stolen from me just as it would have if I would have been a genetic female and then I learned there were real monsters in the world. Boys do have to worry about it way more than what you think, it's just that a lot of them don't say anything until years down the line if even then or decide that they can't live with it anymore and end it themselves. Me being trans helped me through it by reasoning, no matter how insane it sounds, in my mind what you mentioned about it happens to girls and if girls could somehow survive it I could too. Unfortunately quite a few times until he left the state.
You could say that boys and guys do have the "privilege" of people thinking that it doesn't happen to them. Just like with my friend, he had never told anyone but we were drinking one night and he wanted to open up to someone before he did what he was thinking. Needless to say there were a lot of tears and my horror story kept him from doing his deed. Looking back and thinking about it while writing this post, it is strange how something that happened to me that was so horrible actually saved someone's life.
Quote from: Jess42 on May 12, 2014, 01:02:40 PM
I really beg to differ with you on that sad panda. How is it not the same thing? At twelve years old, I was still innocent and the world was still a fairly safe place and full of promise and that innocence was stolen from me just as it would have if I would have been a genetic female and then I learned there were real monsters in the world. Boys do have to worry about it way more than what you think, it's just that a lot of them don't say anything until years down the line if even then or decide that they can't live with it anymore and end it themselves. Me being trans helped me through it by reasoning, no matter how insane it sounds, in my mind what you mentioned about it happens to girls and if girls could somehow survive it I could too. Unfortunately quite a few times until he left the state.
You could say that boys and guys do have the "privilege" of people thinking that it doesn't happen to them. Just like with my friend, he had never told anyone but we were drinking one night and he wanted to open up to someone before he did what he was thinking. Needless to say there were a lot of tears and my horror story kept him from doing his deed. Looking back and thinking about it while writing this post, it is strange how something that happened to me that was so horrible actually saved someone's life.
I don't think you are getting me. I have said it here before and I feel like I'm saying it too often but I was raped, for months, and had also met several other men who were later convicted of abusing other boys I knew. I know it happens. 100% know that. That's not the point I'm trying to make. The point is that until I met my abuser, the possibility of being victimized sexually was completely off my radar. And that's despite growing up acutely aware of rape as the child of a rape survivor myself. I did not believe it would happen to me and I had no reason to because it simply does not happen to boys as often, and it seldom happens to men.
According to this site (http://www.victimsofcrime.org/media/reporting-on-child-sexual-abuse/child-sexual-abuse-statistics), girls are 4 times as likely as boys to be sexually abused as children. That is a privilege for boys. And then, according to RAINN, 1 in 6 women will experience an attempted or completed rape in their lifetime, but only 1 in 33 men will.
That doesn't mean it is any less bad when a man is the victim. That doesn't mean that any given man won't BE a victim. But does any individual man have a significantly decreased risk of being one? Absolutely... again, that is a privilege, whether they are aware of it or not.
@Sad Panda,
Weirdly enough I had a dissimilar experience. I remember when I was 10 my mom got really sick and my gramma put us in Catholic school for a month till she got better, and my mother told me not to go anywhere alone with the priests because the priests liked little boys...ironically, she was right because he just recently went to jail for molesting boys over a long stretch of time. And my mom always said "I was lucky because I was a girl" because most of her male friends in school were molested..for some reason those Italian guys like little boys.
But yeah. We are similar. My mother is a rape survivor as well and then like I told you about that stuff with that guy that I still don't quite understand but me and my sister have discussed it and she's been aware of it this whole time and felt guilty but didn't want to make me feel weird or like it was why I was gay/trans...I guess it's more I'm still not 100% sure how to process or interpret it, but I guess if I'm being 100% honest with myself I am aware if it. But I don't know if it was traumatic, per se, because I think when I was little I didn't completely understand it so I made rationalizations like "ohh he's like (relationship) to me, so it's okay". This would have happened when I was quite small, like age 7, because the place it would have been in was sold when I was that age.
And I don't really consider it to be actual rape...more like moestation. Which I feel like in a sick way iss a privilege of having a penis. Because I know my sister in law was brutally raped at age 10, tho she has no memory of it...but there's police records, and it was horrendous. So I feel like that's the another difference between sexual abuse of boys and girls.
Quote from: sad panda on May 12, 2014, 01:21:47 PM
I don't think you are getting me. I have said it here before and I feel like I'm saying it too often but I was raped, for months, and had also met several other men who were later convicted of abusing other boys I knew. I know it happens. 100% know that. That's not the point I'm trying to make. The point is that until I met my abuser, the possibility of being victimized sexually was completely off my radar. And that's despite growing up acutely aware of rape as the child of a rape survivor myself. I did not believe it would happen to me and I had no reason to because it simply does not happen to boys as often, and it seldom happens to men.
According to this site (http://www.victimsofcrime.org/media/reporting-on-child-sexual-abuse/child-sexual-abuse-statistics), girls are 4 times as likely as boys to be sexually abused as children. That is a privilege for boys. And then, according to RAINN, 1 in 6 women will experience an attempted or completed rape in their lifetime, but only 1 in 33 men will.
That doesn't mean it is any less bad when a man is the victim. That doesn't mean that any given man won't BE a victim. But does any individual man have a significantly decreased risk of being one? Absolutely... again, that is a privilege, whether they are aware of it or not.
I get what you're sayin' now. On average it happens more to girls and women. One thing that I am tryng to say though is that statistics are reported. I was one that wasn't, my friend was one that wasn't and I'll almost believe that there are way more of us out there that aren't. Still You're right, I do think it is more common for women and girls than for boys but underestimated for the guys part for lack of reporting it to authorities.
@abby
Yeah.. not to get too off topic but I didn't even know what I was going thru at that age. I was only 10. I was innocent. I just wanted to be liked. I just wanted to be good enough. I just wanted to give him what he wanted from me. It stayed that way for a long time in my head. Pretty much until I started actually trying to heal and become a functional person again. I acted like it was consensual, not that I was capable of consenting, and not that I wanted it, enjoyed it, or whatever. Then I acted like it was my fault for not telling someone. And it has taken it finally coming out and telling someone to see the damage it has done. Sometimes I wish nobody had ever told me it was wrong. Maybe I never would have realized that and I wouldn't have to suffer with knowing now, like how it affected me. I would just think I was naturally kind of messed up and had a weird self-image. I realized how completely detached I am from anything sexual. I think of it like shaking hands. Emotionless. Honestly I'm still in denial a lot of the time. I'm still not ready to deal with it or to call it what it was--rape. I think my only saving grace in any of this is that I had learned before, ironically, that I don't even get to be a victim. Maybe it really is like that, maybe that is a privilege.... Now that I don't have that, I don't know what to feel anymore... hahh... :/
Sorry I am off topic though... I'm just struggling today... ugh
Quote from: sad panda on May 12, 2014, 02:01:35 PM
@abby
Yeah.. not to get too off topic but I didn't even know what I was going thru at that age. I was only 10. I was innocent. I just wanted to be liked. I just wanted to be good enough. I just wanted to give him what he wanted from me. It stayed that way for a long time in my head. Pretty much until I started actually trying to heal and become a functional person again. I acted like it was consensual, not that I was capable of consenting, and not that I wanted it, enjoyed it, or whatever. Then I acted like it was my fault for not telling someone. And it has taken it finally coming out and telling someone to see the damage it has done. Sometimes I wish nobody had ever told me it was wrong. Maybe I never would have realized that and I wouldn't have to suffer with knowing now, like how it affected me. I would just think I was naturally kind of messed up and had a weird self-image. I realized how completely detached I am from anything sexual. I think of it like shaking hands. Emotionless. Honestly I'm still in denial a lot of the time. I'm still not ready to deal with it or to call it what it was--rape. I think my only saving grace in any of this is that I had learned before, ironically, that I don't even get to be a victim. Maybe it really is like that, maybe that is a privilege.... Now that I don't have that, I don't know what to feel anymore... hahh... :/
Sorry I am off topic though... I'm just struggling today... ugh
Sad Panda...first off, *hug*...second...you're like the only person who gets it. I feel so sexually deattached with people. I'm not asexual...I want sex...but when I'm there it feels like something I have to do, and I don't feel anything, it just feels weird. It's hard to describe. I'm not turned on even though i should be, I'm numb.and then I've had several panic attacks during, one of which was pretty bad...touching them is usually okay, but I find when they touch me I freak out.
I also have some self image problems, like the eating disorder (which started as overeating and ended in anorexia) and a problem with overly objectifying myself...I once told a guy I thought of myself as a cumdump, lol, I dunno why. But he seemed very turned on by it lol
But yeah, I still don't know how to register because I hate to call it that,because I don't feel it was thaat bad more touching and such..i don't know how to describe it, cause uhh, i was quite young. And it's complicated,because also, it's quite vague for me. It's mostly impressions and like I remember the room..soo well, but then the actual stuff I still get this weird feeling when I think about it, but it was a more a sense of weirdness than trauma, I guess.
Tbh, I feel weird talking about this, which is why I generally avoid it. PM if you wanna discuss it more
as a biological male, i was never given male or female privileges. every i applied to jobs, the most inexperienced people get picked before me and i can go in and wow the interviewers and still get over looked. at these times i didnt know i was trans and i was the perfect male in societies eyes. so what i'm wondering, is it possible they can see into the future or is it they can tell you about yourself more than you can becuz apparently male privileges had never applied to me
Quote from: Umiko Liliana on May 12, 2014, 02:26:50 PM
as a biological male, i was never given male or female privileges. every i applied to jobs, the most inexperienced people get picked before me and i can go in and wow the interviewers and still get over looked. at these times i didnt know i was trans and i was the perfect male in societies eyes. so what i'm wondering, is it possible they can see into the future or is it they can tell you about yourself more than you can becuz apparently male privileges had never applied to me
I am definately with you on that one sister. It has to be something, what I don't know.
Quote from: Kylie on May 11, 2014, 09:08:19 PM
...and I think you are entrenched in your point of view.
It's only fairly recently that I've even been exposed to an alternate POV. I was a self-described feminist for about 25 years. In college, I was one of the few male members of the Women's Student Union at a conservative Southern college when they were just starting out. I was arguably "entrenched" in my POV that sexism was almost exclusively an issue of female oppression caused almost exclusively by men. But I haven't just flipped my POV. I've simply come to realize that it goes both ways.
QuoteGross exaggeration, men and women have an almost equal unemployment rate, women had a lower unemployment rate for the previous 5 years. They both provide, the woman's contribution is just marginalized as you just did in this quote. As for dangerous jobs and feeling obligated to die? How does one debate this? You can't, so what is the point?
Okay, first off, I started out with very hard data that was immediately questioned and context was demanded. Then when I start to discuss context, you say essentially that feelz don't matter and aren't worthy of discussion. So you're dismissing hard data I provide and then following up by saying anything that's not based on hard data is not worthy of being discussed. Meanwhile, you started off your response by saying how abrasiveness is more tolerated in men than women. That is your opinion about how people feel on average. So you're allowed to discuss that but not me? I would posit that I'm not the one who is entrenched.
BTW, I am inclined to agree. I think men GENERALLY tend to interrupt women and not value their opinions as much. That is an ambiguous cultural phenomenon but we can still have a conversation about that.
QuoteWho knows if the average man feels this? You don't know this and you can't quanitfy it. It is a generalization that I suspect isn't true.
So have I convinced you that this is even on the table for discussion? I'm sincerely surprised that anyone is even disputing this. This is reflected in our laws and our media. Only men can be conscripted. Even in a volunteer force, men can be and are forced to be in active combat roles. Women can now choose it but men don't have that choice. This is very recent. And I presented the hard data right from the start to support that dangerous fields remain male-dominated. Do you dispute that our culture reflects a general attitude that such jobs are meant primarily for men?
And then look at our media. The leading man is a heroic figure who rescues the damsel in distress and is often then rewarded by "getting the girl". We're starting to see some variation, thank goodness. We're seeing women in heroic roles more often, but it's a relatively recent thing.
Quote...but I can point out that women are more likely to be assaulted by their intimate partner than a stranger, I think they are more likely to be killed by an intimate partner as well, but I am not 100% sure about that.
This is true in general. It's disingenuous to say that women are more likely to be killed by an intimate partner when it's well known that most murders are by someone known by the victim. Also, domestic violence is not gendered.
The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention report, "In nonreciprocally violent relationships, women were the perpetrators in more than 70% of the cases. Reciprocity was associated with more frequent violence among women, but not men." [Source: Whitaker, Haileyesus, Swahn and Saltzman, Differences in Frequency of Violence and Reported Injury Between Relationships With Reciprocal and Nonreciprocal Intimate Partner Violence, American Journal of Public Health, May 2007, Vol 97, No. 5, pp. 941-947, http://www.ajph.org/cgi/content/abstract/97/5/941]However, men are much less likely to report it, and when they do call the police to report a women aggressor, the police almost always arrest the man based on the perception that has been created that domestic violence is gendered (i.e. men do it and not women).
According to the National Family Violence Survey, female victims of DV are nine times more likely to call the police than male DV victims. These are the percentages of victims who called the police in response to the assault:
Women: 8.5%
Men: 0.9%QuoteAm I saying that the average male is a rapist, deadbeat dad or wife beater? No, but this notion of women as some protected, unharmable class is nonsense. (This quote is one example of the generalization, exaggeration and opinion as fact that I took issue with)
I never said such a ridiculous thing. We're obviously talking about the culture and for that, statistics and trends are relevant. Even if you include rape, men are far more often the victims of violent crimes than women. I don't actually discuss this that much so I don't have the stats at my fingertips but I will try to find some references for you. The data is readily available. I'm just already an hour deep writing this response right now.
QuoteDo you think a mugger or murderer who is thumbing his nose at statutory law will all of a sudden target a man because of some socially accepted law of chivalry not to harm women?
Sometimes. We're talking about trends and culture. All criminals are not the same.
QuoteHe is a violent criminal! He is targeting the easiest mark! I would argue that men put themselves in more dangerous situations, and that women are more cautious of their surroundings. That is my theory for the higher violence against men, not a fact, my theory.
Okay, since you've decided we're allowed to talk about our theories again, I'll try to convey to you why I think that's the case. I think your points are relevant. I also believe our culture makes violence against men less taboo, whether by other men or by women.
I have a little thought experiment for you. Start paying attention to violence in movies and the genders of the victims in particular. Switch the genders of everyone involved and see how it affects the way you feel about the violence. Most movies will have men as the fodder. Male characters who you don't know or care about will be picked off left and right in an action movie. When they want to make you hate a villain, they'll make him violent to women. Making him a rapist is the most effective way to say "this is the villain. Hate him!" and it works great. When a man is raped, it will frequently be in a comedic situation or because he's evil and he deserved it.
This clip has no nudity but is still fairly NSFW.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWlPkUFJNJ0?t=1s
Watch some romantic comedies ("chick flicks"). Imagine how many times you saw a woman slap a man. How do you think most people reacted? Were they appalled at the domestic violence or did they think "that pig deserved it!" Every time you see that, switch the genders and see how it changes how you feel. Imagine three guys sitting around a table talking about how violence against a "slut" who cheated on them is not enough revenge.
http://youtu.be/iqvWgpqfeHY?t=1m29s
At some point, he ends up in traction, and it's hilarious, because he's a cheater!
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FMyu7dGR.jpg&hash=0c931cf326cec2d591c996b9c84d0534e6bc2374)
Here's one guy's post in response to
The Other Woman.
QuoteFor my wifes birthday I took her to see a local theater performance of a musical called "Baltimore". It was set in the 1920's, cute period costumes, etc.
I really had no idea what the show story was, so I was kind of surprised to find out that it was about a married man who brutally murdered his lover when she decided to leave him. The story kind of degenerated from there. The man tried to pin the murder on his wife, who was portrayed as comically stupid, too dumb to even confess to the crime properly and it came out that he actually did it and was arrested (The wife's stupidity and misplaced unwavering loyalty are a running joke through the performance). Once he's in jail, he's locked up with 6 more men who killed women, who sang a a very amusing song where each detailed how they murdered their wives or girlfriends, and the trivial reasons they did it (one woman was killed for chewing gum). The audience had a good laugh along with this one.
So, the story progresses and follows the fellow through his trial, and eventual acquittal...what with there being few characters more sympathetic than an adulterous man who murders his lover, the audience cheered out loud when he was found "not guilty". The play wrapped up with the two primary woman killers laughing and dancing off into the sunset having become wealthy and famous from the crimes they got away with.
Now, as the lights came up, I should have been surprised at how grotesquely misogynistic the play was, and how disturbing it was to see the audience laughing and clapping for men who murdered women without provocation and were rewarded for it. I would have been, except there's no musical called "Baltimore". The show was "Chicago" and it was about women who murdered men, I simply did the old switcheroo on the sexes.
This is the longest running musical in Broadway history, and a highly successful motion picture...a story about women who murder their lovers, get away with it, and sing funny songs about how little provocation they had.
The Other Woman is just another in a long line of shows/movies/ads that would be utterly unacceptable to us if the sexes were reversed, but the overwhelming reaction to criticism is "oh lighten up".
QuoteThe stats in the diagram you posted have context to them as well, they are not clear cut proof of some female privilege in those areas.
You're right. Even when "hard data" is posted, it needs to be questioned. None of this clear cut. It's about culture and trends. I just want us to be able to have an honest conversation about sexism and I feel like a lot of people are looking at it with tunnel vision--seeing and acknowledging only the things that support a particular POV or agenda and ignoring everything else.
I think we're all talking about different things here. I think what you're trying to say Dalebert, is that there are advantages to being female and disadvantages to being male. I've lived as both, so I know that. But I don't think that has much to do with whether male privilege exists or not. Anyway, like I said before, I wish there was a better word for it. Because it seems to conjure up images of males just waltzing blissfully through life without any problems. And puts men (or people who are living or have lived as men) on the defensive unnecessarily and seems to indicate fault where there's none.
Anyway, there was some conversation a few posts ago about feminine men not having privilege, etc. Well, to go back to what I was saying earlier about having markers. The default human in the US at least, is white, male, and hetero. He's the default, the 'normal'. He's got no 'extra labels' to deal with.
Now once someone has a marker, those markers interact with the others in different ways. Like a white, straight woman has one 'non default' label on her. She's still got privilege for being white, but she's also born with the 'other' label. A lesbian, trans woman of color has a ton of markers. When I transitioned, I lost one marker (female) and gained another (trans). But because I'm not visibly trans or bi, I am assumed to have no markers - white, male, hetero.
So in the case of a white male who is clearly effeminate or gay, that may be a marker. It doesn't mean he loses the privileged state of lacking the female marker. But he may have a marker for 'gender non-compliance' which causes problems for him. Or a marker for being gay. So, it's not that he's not privileged for lacking the female marker. But he may be disprivileged for having a different one.
Anyway, that's my crude way of explaining it. And I'm starting to feel really bad talking about this kind of stuff - women's issues, etc on here (not this thread in particular). Because I feel like everybody just gets upset. I mean, I've had more people mad at me for talking about these things on here than I have in all my years here. And I used to talk about a lot of provocative stuff. And that's kind of an odd side effect of being male for me - since transition, I've been a lot more affected by and concerned with people's feelings. And if I think I've upset someone, I have trouble sleeping.
I would hate to discourage you from being able to speak openly and honestly. It sounds like this has almost broken down into a semantics issue. You mean a very specific thing when you say "male privilege" and others, myself included, interpret it differently.