Hello Ladies,
I say that because the phenomenon we call crossdressing is almost exclusively a male endeavor. Mostly because women are not persecuted for crossdressing. It is perfectly acceptable for women to wear men's anything. From underwear to a suit and tie.
When I first came out of the closet I went to a crossdresser forum. I didn't know that there was a difference between crossdressers and transsexuals. I thought it was the same thing. Transsexuals crossdress. I thought those who claimed to only do it once in a while, were just in denial, something I knew a lot about.
I spent a great deal of time arguing with crossdressers and offending many of them as well as their SO's by proclaiming they were all headed for transition eventually. That like me, they would let go of the denial eventually, and just admit they really wanted to transition. But as time went on, I started reading and learning about transsexualism and crossdressing and learned that crossdressers are indeed something different.
Many like Cathy Anderson had used Jungian psychology to explain crossdressing as part of the "male anima" which contains the female part of our psyche. After all, we are all the product of the union of a male and a female. But when I read this material, which many crossdressers swore by, it just was not what I was feeling. I didn't feel another part of me wanting out.
"Jung's Anima Theory and How it Relates to Crossdressing"
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/cathytg/anima.htm (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/cathytg/anima.htm)
Then I started listening to crossdressers talking about how they started dressing. Unlike me, almost all were sexually motivated, at least at first. Most had a long history of crossdressing, I had only done it a few times and it was not to get off. It was to feel like a person. Finally I figured it out. I was not a crossdresser at all. They were completely different things.
During this time I had been in a crossdresser forum. I had heard crossdressers talking about other sites and being demeaned by "true transsexuals". I could not believe that anyone who had gender issues would demean anyone else simply because their gender expression was not the same as theirs. But when I stepped into the transsexual world, crossdresser became a bad word. I mean, would I be labled as a sex crazed ->-bleeped-<- dressing as a woman just to get off, thereby putting a stigma on transsexuals?
Indeed I have been shocked and surprised by the way the transsexual community has demonized crossdressers as the source of all of our troubles. People vehemently denying they are a crossdresser to defend themselves against attack.
But I have to say, crossdressers are some of the warmest loving human beings I have ever met. I owe my life to a handful of them who held me up when I was too weak to hold myself up. I don't know what motivated crossdressers to begin with, but I do know that they have a feminine part of themselves that must be expressed. Some in public, for others private is fine. Still others are transsexuals who are hiding in the crossdresser closet unwilling to accept the real truth about themselves, like me.
Love always,
Elizabeth
Thanks for the link Elizabeth - it looks like very interesting read that I will explore when I have more timr.
Some of the TS people do like like Crossdresses because they do not want to be identified with any "Guys in a dress". Many cross dresses will identify as Male and hence the TS people do not want to be near them. But what I am also finding is those same CDs also have a large female side that needs to be recognised. I fould it interesting what Alice Novic (see http://www.aliceingenderland.com/CouldIBeTS.html).
Quote
For me, crossdresser describes an MTF trans person who lives his life primarily as a man. And a transsexual is an MTF trans person who has decided to live as a woman. So, to me, my TS sister, you and I live different lifestyles, but are we deep down different people? I think you sensed it yourself: we're not.
I do know the TS people do not want to be see as a guy in dress and will try and separate themselves away. But in the end we are part of the same comunity and have similar struggles.
Alice
Quote from: Elizabeth on August 13, 2007, 12:24:40 AM
I don't know what motivated crossdressers to begin with, but I do know that they have a feminine part of themselves that must be expressed.
I agree. I think there are a lot of different motivations for crossdressing. Some men have a strong feminine side that needs expressed, as you say. Some may have some form of GID. Some are purely sexually motivated.
And some, I think, just like to dress up - after all, it was only a few centuries back that men's clothes rivaled women's in fashion and frilliness. It was also fairly common place for men to wear makeup and take as much care with hair styling as women.
Men are stifled in today's society. Too many taboos. Of course there are men that like pretty clothes and like to dress up and paint their face. It's really not an exclusively female trait. Only in today's society. ::)
i am confused actually.... because i for one do believe that CD and TS are the same. am i wrong?
Elizabeth: you mentioned that you now relize that CD and TS are indeed different... in what way?
(for a second i was happy that someone agreed with me ;) )
now i am not so sure what to think.
Quote from: cyanide on August 13, 2007, 07:18:56 PM
i am confused actually.... because i for one do believe that CD and TS are the same. am i wrong?
Take a peek at
Standard Terms and Definitions 2 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,14714.msg112044.html#msg112044) ;)
~Kate~
Quote from: cyanide on August 13, 2007, 07:18:56 PM
i am confused actually.... because i for one do believe that CD and TS are the same. am i wrong?
Elizabeth: you mentioned that you now relize that CD and TS are indeed different... in what way?
(for a second i was happy that someone agreed with me ;) )
now i am not so sure what to think.
1. I don't enjoy anything about being male
2. I want to alter my body permanently
3. I am not motivated to do this from sexual turn on
In those ways we are different. I don't want to look like a woman, I want to be a woman. All the time.
Love always,
Elizabeth
Quote from: Elizabeth on August 13, 2007, 09:37:52 PM
Quote from: cyanide on August 13, 2007, 07:18:56 PM
i am confused actually.... because i for one do believe that CD and TS are the same. am i wrong?
Elizabeth: you mentioned that you now relize that CD and TS are indeed different... in what way?
(for a second i was happy that someone agreed with me ;) )
now i am not so sure what to think.
1. I don't enjoy anything about being male
2. I want to alter my body permanently
3. I am not motivated to do this from sexual turn on
In those ways we are different. I don't want to look like a woman, I want to be a woman. All the time.
Love always,
Elizabeth
1 - Ok cross dresses generly do not mind being male - some do however much prefer they where female
3 - Do not generlise - there are many reasons for cross dressing. I am gettig ready for a ball this weekend. I am not cross dressing fo a turn on - I am trying to find out as much as possible about myself.
Alice
Quote from: Alice on August 13, 2007, 09:59:18 PM
...
1 - Ok cross dresses generly do not mind being male - some do however much prefer they where female
3 - Do not generlise - there are many reasons for cross dressing. I am gettig ready for a ball this weekend. I am not cross dressing fo a turn on - I am trying to find out as much as possible about myself.
Alice
It's all about how it starts. I recognize that many crossdressers do not dress for sexual turn on, now. However, it's rare that this was not the original motivation when the crossdressing began. If this does not apply to you, I am sorry for offending you, but it is one of the differences between crossdressers and transsexuals.
Love always,
Elizabeth
Quote from: Elizabeth on August 13, 2007, 10:04:13 PM
Quote from: Alice on August 13, 2007, 09:59:18 PM
...
1 - Ok cross dresses generly do not mind being male - some do however much prefer they where female
3 - Do not generlise - there are many reasons for cross dressing. I am gettig ready for a ball this weekend. I am not cross dressing fo a turn on - I am trying to find out as much as possible about myself.
Alice
It's all about how it starts. I recognize that many crossdressers do not dress for sexual turn on, now. However, it's rare that this was not the original motivation when the crossdressing began. If this does not apply to you, I am sorry for offending you, but it is one of the differences between crossdressers and transsexuals.
Love always,
Elizabeth
I still do not like it. What about the girls who start out as CDs and end being TS. I know one girl who started out a CD - had the depression and the like - did not mind being a guy etc - but has ended up findout out she is infact closer to female then male. I myslef is in a similar situation. It is just so hard to generlise people so I prefer we did not do it.
Alice
Crossdressers are definitely demonized and treated as second class in the T community. I think when I was just starting to transition, I wanted to avoid identification as a CD so much that I missed many opportunities to correct people's stigmas about them. Now that I am much farther along in transition, I tend to be a lot more open towards everyone in the T-community. I just try to understand them on their level and get to know them as people first, as I would want others to do with me. And hopefully through that I can be an example for others.
Quote from: Alice on August 13, 2007, 09:59:18 PM
What about the girls who start out as CDs and end being TS.,,
Alice
this is actually what i am talking about. it is not about the personality, etc. (and i also think that people who crossdress for sexual desires are called transvistites aren't they? not sure).
the way that i actually think CD and TS are similar is that i believe many of us started out crossdressing and then 'branch' out into different spectrums of the TG category.
i for one considered myself a crossdresser for a while. but recently, i've considered looking into doctors and begin hormone therapy.
i am still unsure about SRS yet. (and speaking of which, what about those who only go half way? are they more demonized?)
I knew a transsexual who was vehemently against crossdressers, despite her being a chat op on a transsexual chat site. If a CD asked for her help, she would either ignore them, pawn them off on another op, or belittle them in ways they probably didn't really understand.
She didn't live a perfect life; indeed, she was far from it. She hated children (by her own profession), loathed anyone she felt might be beneath her as far as intelligence was concerned, and nitpicked on every little thing she could about every person she met. Truly, she was one of the most inconsiderate, conceited women I have ever met.
Transsexual, cross-dresser, gay, straight, black, white... we're all people. Some are kind, some brash and offensive. Is there anything wrong with cross-dressing? Of course not! If you're not hurting yourself or others, and if you're happy, I say go for it! Judge each human as just that, a human... and disregard clothing choices.
And btw, it's long troubled me, that double standard that dictates women are allowed to dress in men's clothing, but not men in women's. Unisex clothes, anyone?
Dino
I don't know the reason why and maybe it's very wrong of me, but I know I would feel hurt and demoralised if someone were to say to me "Hey, you're not transsexual, you're a ->-bleeped-<-!".
But it's not likely to happen outside the "tg community" because to the general public they are one and the same. It's easy to say we should educate the public, but quite frankly I don't think they would be interested in listening to us. As far as many people are concerned we're all perverts.
Sorry but it's true and anyone who thinks otherwise is living in la-la land.
Louise
The hierarchy within trans communities has bothered me since day one of my involvement with it. When I first realized I was transgender, I went to various groups and meet lots of people. I quickly realized I wasn't a crossdresser, I just didn't feel things the same way as CDs I talked with. I also went to TS groups, and hung around with gay drag queens too. I didn't quite fit in with any group. I never felt better than anyone else, just different. I'm still figuring out who I am on the gender spectrum.
We're all gender variant in some way, and need to work together against the discrimination that we suffer from society, not fight amongst ourselves. I look at the person, not the label. I have friends in all walks of life. Drag queens, post op TS, gay, straight... even republicans ;D
Zythyra
Quote from: DeanO on August 14, 2007, 02:32:44 AM
I knew a transsexual who was vehemently against crossdressers, despite her being a chat op on a transsexual chat site. If a CD asked for her help, she would either ignore them, pawn them off on another op, or belittle them in ways they probably didn't really understand.
She didn't live a perfect life; indeed, she was far from it. She hated children (by her own profession), loathed anyone she felt might be beneath her as far as intelligence was concerned, and nitpicked on every little thing she could about every person she met. Truly, she was one of the most inconsiderate, conceited women I have ever met.
Transsexual, cross-dresser, gay, straight, black, white... we're all people. Some are kind, some brash and offensive. Is there anything wrong with cross-dressing? Of course not! If you're not hurting yourself or others, and if you're happy, I say go for it! Judge each human as just that, a human... and disregard clothing choices.
And btw, it's long troubled me, that double standard that dictates women are allowed to dress in men's clothing, but not men in women's. Unisex clothes, anyone?
Dino
The person you talked about most likely had her own issues to deal with.
Gennee
Posted on: August 14, 2007, 09:01:40 AM
I am a crossdresser and I have felt the less-than-friendly attitudes of transsexuals towards crossdressers. The thing is that I feel a kinship towards transsexuals. I am not transsexual and have no desire to have surgery but I support the transgender community regardless. I'm happy and content as both male and female.
Listen, TG's have it tough dealing with the straight world. Can't we just respect our differences? If you feel good about who you are and are not ashamed about it, that goes a long way toward liberated living in this world.
Gennee
:)
To give a simple answer to a complex question, in some quarters, yes CD's are demonized, second class, shunned or however you want to phrase it. I've told the story here before but once when I was hostessing a reception for newcomers at Southern Comfort, I overheard one of my newbies (CD) ask a question at a big roundtable discussion that was going on. She received basically what amounted to a sneer and the comment "You wouldn't understand, you're just a CD" from one of the TS participants. However another girl, also TS, to the sneerer to task, chewed her out for being elitist and then answered the newbies question.
But I did find in working the conference for the number of years that I did, most TS are very caring of all people in the gender spectrum and I've seen many a TS take a CD under their wing, so to speak.
Quote from: DeanO on August 14, 2007, 02:32:44 AM
I knew a transsexual who was vehemently against crossdressers, despite her being a chat op on a transsexual chat site. If a CD asked for her help, she would either ignore them, pawn them off on another op, or belittle them in ways they probably didn't really understand.
She didn't live a perfect life; indeed, she was far from it. She hated children (by her own profession), loathed anyone she felt might be beneath her as far as intelligence was concerned, and nitpicked on every little thing she could about every person she met. Truly, she was one of the most inconsiderate, conceited women I have ever met.
Deano, say it ain't so. No one would act like that would they? I'm being facetious here. ROFL
Beverly
I agree with the notion that CDs are demonized within the TG community. There is evidence of it here on this site in all the references to the mysterious "man in a dress". The reference is often belittling toward the person or concept of the person who is the "man in a dress".
Personally, it does not make me happy to see that some people are considered inadequate or fakes. People are people. We actually need more men in dresses in this world. Not only would it be an indicator of social acceptance for gender variation, but those men would probably be happier with their lives and might make more of a difference in this uptight bitter culture.
I am only going to say this once. There is nothing wrong with a man in a dress. I think I've seen some young men wearing obviously feminine clothing lately. Maybe the future will get better. Maybe good enough that a man in a dress won't be sneered at or put down by anybody.
I guess this rant was brought to you by my sense of indignation. Harrumph! >:(
Quote from: Elizabeth on August 13, 2007, 12:24:40 AM
Hello Ladies,
I say that because the phenomenon we call crossdressing is almost exclusively a male endeavor. Mostly because women are not persecuted for crossdressing. It is perfectly acceptable for women to wear men's anything. From underwear to a suit and tie.
Bear in mind that this freedom of women's was bought at a price about a hundred years ago. In the United States, at least, the original crossdressers were suffrigettes wearing pants. They were villified much the same way MtF CDs are today.
Also bear in mind that FtM CDs still are with us today. There is a difference between women who wear pants and ties and so on, and women who crossdress. Of course there is the difference of intent to present as male. But there are also the attempts to create beard shadows and packing.
Posted on: August 15, 2007, 04:39:16 PM
Quote from: BeverlyAnn on August 14, 2007, 05:11:50 PM
when I was hostessing a reception for newcomers at Southern Comfort,
I keep promising to join you one of these years. *sigh*
Quote from: Rebis on August 14, 2007, 06:43:34 PM
...We actually need more men in dresses in this world. Not only would it be an indicator of social acceptance for gender variation, but those men would probably be happier with their lives and might make more of a difference in this uptight bitter culture...
Perhaps we need more men in dresses that are aware of and concerned about women's issues.
When I came out of the closet one of the first things I did was join a CD group. After doing that I was able to discover quickly that my issues were significantly different from typical CD issues, even though we had much in common. I saw that some of their gender identity issues that were remarkably similar to my own, and yet there was an emphasis on clothing and appearance that was different from what I felt.
While I don't go to events often, I still belong to that CD group even though I am full time and preparing for SRS. My therapist was a little surprised when I mentioned it. But I don't think we should build a wall between CDs and TSs, and this is my way of building bridges instead.
One thing I have noticed about the CDs I know is that while some of them may be very good at walking in high heels, they have not walked in a woman's shoes. They go to their CD events, often bringing their wives along (and occasionally their children), and then they return to their "straight" world and their male privilege. I don't think that is wrong, but I wonder how much they learn from it. I can't say that I ever hear them talking about equal rights or women's issues. These are things other women I know sometimes talk about, and I have talked with CDs' wives about such things, but not the (MTF) CDs themselves.
So I agree that we could use more men in dresses in the world, but I would happier if I saw them working to
change the world.
Quote from: Megan on August 15, 2007, 06:16:45 PM
While I don't go to events often, I still belong to that CD group even though I am full time and preparing for SRS. My therapist was a little surprised when I mentioned it. But I don't think we should build a wall between CDs and TSs, and this is my way of building bridges instead.
i am surprised that she is surprised. are we REALLY that different?
again, i still consider that most of us started with crossdressing.
Quote
Perhaps we need more men in dresses that are aware of and concerned about women's issues.
One thing I have noticed about the CDs I know is that while some of them may be very good at walking in high heels, they have not walked in a woman's shoes. They go to their CD events, often bringing their wives along (and occasionally their children), and then they return to their "straight" world and their male privilege. I don't think that is wrong, but I wonder how much they learn from it. I can't say that I ever hear them talking about equal rights or women's issues. These are things other women I know sometimes talk about, and I have talked with CDs' wives about such things, but not the (MTF) CDs themselves.
you may have a good point here.... but ,IMHO,(this is not directed at you btw :D ) i don't think there is a need to divide between the two groups just because the CDs don't talk about these issues. And, just because the TSs talk about these equality does not make them relate to a genetic female more.
i think this is more of a core personality problem that can do without the TG intervention.
First of all, I have no problems with CDs. As far as I'm concerned, anybody can dress how they want to.
I do not consider TS and CD similar though. An TS and CD both wear female clothes, but that's where the similarity ends. A CD is still a man (perhaps feminine, but still a man, otherwise they would be TS), whereas an TS is a woman who desperately needs to change her body and life to a female one, because that is her mental gender.
I have a theory on why CDs are treated like they are by some TS. Many times while transitioning, TS are mistaken for crossdressers, which they consider an attack on their internal gender, since CDs are men. The frustration at being thought of as a CD (a man), rather than a woman is what will cause these TS to develop a dislike for CDs. I think the fact that the CD didn't have to go through the same anguish the TS did--wanting to wear women's clothing and not being able to does not qualify as "anguish", just inconvenience--coupled with jealousy of somebody who does not have (nor comprehend) their own suffering and the fact that people's general misunderstandings of the differences between the groups (which has been demonstrated already) serves to only make transitioning harder causes the TS to lash out at the CD. In all honesty though, a TS that does this has their own unresolved problems and it should not be taken personally by that CD.
*By TS, I am referring to an MtF TS.
Quote from: Melissa on August 15, 2007, 07:22:00 PM
I think the fact that the CD didn't have to go through the same anguish the TS did--wanting to wear women's clothing and not being able to does not qualify as "anguish", just inconvenience--coupled with jealousy of somebody who does not have (nor comprehend) their own suffering and the fact that people's general misunderstandings of the differences between the groups (which has been demonstrated already) serves to only make transitioning harder causes the TS to lash out at the CD. In all honesty though, a TS that does this has their own unresolved problems and it should not be taken personally by that CD.
*By TS, I am referring to an MtF TS.
Gee - I did not suffer anguish?
/rant
I have been wondering if I am male or female for so long now - I wish I knew what it is like to be nornmal. I grew up thinking I was male but now I am just unsure. Lucky I have my anti-depression meds to keep me sane while I figure out why someone who consisders himself male needs to transistion because it is inconvenant to be wearing female cloths with a male body.
/end rant
Alice
Quote from: Alice on August 15, 2007, 07:49:25 PM
/rant
I have been wondering if I am male or female for so long now - I wish I knew what it is like to be nornmal. I grew up thinking I was male but now I am just unsure. Lucky I have my anti-depression meds to keep me sane while I figure out why someone who consisders himself male needs to transistion because it is inconvenant to be wearing female cloths with a male body.
/end rant
Eh. I do it all the time.
Quote from: Alice on August 15, 2007, 07:49:25 PM
Gee - I did not suffer anguish?
/rant
I have been wondering if I am male or female for so long now - I wish I knew what it is like to be nornmal. I grew up thinking I was male but now I am just unsure. Lucky I have my anti-depression meds to keep me sane while I figure out why someone who consisders himself male needs to transistion because it is inconvenant to be wearing female cloths with a male body.
/end rant
Alice
Honestly, this sounds more like an androgyne experience than a CD. CDs *know* they are male.
Quote from: Alice on August 13, 2007, 09:59:18 PM
Quote from: Elizabeth on August 13, 2007, 09:37:52 PM
1. I don't enjoy anything about being male
2. I want to alter my body permanently
3. I am not motivated to do this from sexual turn on
In those ways we are different. I don't want to look like a woman, I want to be a woman. All the time.
Love always,
Elizabeth
1 - Ok cross dresses generly do not mind being male - some do however much prefer they where female
3 - Do not generlise - there are many reasons for cross dressing. I am gettig ready for a ball this weekend. I am not cross dressing fo a turn on - I am trying to find out as much as possible about myself.
Alice
I think these two posts are a wonderful example of the difference. Dressing female may be, in some ways, a sensual experience for me. It is not sexual. It just feels so soothing and so right. I simply must spend as much time in that role as I can squeeze in.
I have had many contacts with cross-dressers, and made some wonderful friendships. We share ideas and enjoy each other. But we also realize that there is a fundamental difference. I don't want to be feminine. I want to be female, hopefully permanently one day. Some don't mind the Max Klinger approach, and that is cool. But I personally would be horrified to be seen as a dude-in-a-dress. That's just who I am. It is not a judgment.
That being said, I am sickened and repulsed at anything resembling a hierarchy in this community. I realize I've probably shot my mouth off about it too much and I won't do it again here. The only ranking system I endorse is the one where those who see themselves as better than the rest and on the very bottom rung of the ladder.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
QuoteI am only going to say this once. There is nothing wrong with a man in a dress. I think I've seen some young men wearing obviously feminine clothing lately. Maybe the future will get better. Maybe good enough that a man in a dress won't be sneered at or put down by anybody.
I guess this rant was brought to you by my sense of indignation. Harrumph!
Agreed, the only thing wrong with a man in a dress is the negative responses that said person receives from society, when instead they should be getting complements on their fabulous fashion sense ;D
Zythyra
Hmmmm....according to what I have read, there seems to be a distinction between cross-dressers and ->-bleeped-<-s.
QuoteCross Dressers: Men who enjoy the wearing and the feel of women's clothing.
->-bleeped-<-s: Men who are sexually aroused by wearing women's clothing.
Also:
QuoteCross Dresser (CD) - There's some confusion over whether this is any different from a ->-bleeped-<- but the term tends to be applied more to those who like to wear womens' clothes but who aren't fussed about putting on make-up or 'passing'.
->-bleeped-<- (TV) - Someone who likes to dress up in womens' clothes with the aim of looking like a woman.
However this link shows a different POV.
Myths of Transvestism (http://www.vernoncoleman.com/thethreemyths.htm)
tink :icon_chick:
While I wish it were not so, it does seem that a lot of times CDs are treated as second-class citizens by the TG community. The terms "man in a dress" and "just a CD" are offensive and anyone saying them to or about another person should be reprimanded.
Just my opinion.
Honestly, some of the lines between CD and Androgyne, and Androgyne and TS do get a little blurry when one starts picking nits. What is it, you meet 7 or more out of 10 key points and, since 70% is passing, you get to add the other label to your personal resume? What a bunch of hooey!
People are people, no matter how they choose to present themselves or what they choose to be called. Laura had it right when she said:
Quote from: Laura Elizabeth Jones on August 15, 2007, 06:04:57 PM
People are people, if you are a good person then that is great. If you are a bad person then well...you s--k.
And anyone who has read Alice's posts, and still has the cajones to say zie hasn't been through anguish...What kind of drugs are you taking? Alice is one of my heroes and hir open and honest sharing of hir struggles has been a source of comfort and hope for me.
.......Laurry
Quote from: Melissa on August 15, 2007, 09:04:37 PM
Quote from: Alice on August 15, 2007, 07:49:25 PM
Gee - I did not suffer anguish?
/rant
I have been wondering if I am male or female for so long now - I wish I knew what it is like to be nornmal. I grew up thinking I was male but now I am just unsure. Lucky I have my anti-depression meds to keep me sane while I figure out why someone who consisders himself male needs to transistion because it is inconvenant to be wearing female cloths with a male body.
/end rant
Alice
Honestly, this sounds more like an androgyne experience than a CD. CDs *know* they are male.
Hmm - Androgyne like to dress so it is hard to determine their gender. I dress as either male (when at work etc) or female. I thought you would of said it is an experience before you relise you are TS. For all intense and purposes it looks as if I am going to at least try HRT in the future just to see where I stand. But for now I consider myself a cross dresser with lot of anguish (depression, suicidal etc).
Alice
Quote from: Megan on August 15, 2007, 06:16:45 PM
Perhaps we need more men in dresses that are aware of and concerned about women's issues.
I think the same could also be said of a number of people who call themselves transsexuals.
Quote from: Melissa on August 15, 2007, 09:04:37 PM
Quote from: Alice on August 15, 2007, 07:49:25 PM
Gee - I did not suffer anguish?
/rant
I have been wondering if I am male or female for so long now - I wish I knew what it is like to be nornmal. I grew up thinking I was male but now I am just unsure. Lucky I have my anti-depression meds to keep me sane while I figure out why someone who consisders himself male needs to transistion because it is inconvenant to be wearing female cloths with a male body.
/end rant
Alice
Honestly, this sounds more like an androgyne experience than a CD. CDs *know* they are male.
I'm thinking the same thing. It's sometimes a tough decision to come to. It may not even be a decision. 6.1% of people on this site believe androgyne is
QuoteA place of safety while working out Gender issues.
;)
Don't feel bad, Alice. There is a place for you. If you'd like to explore the androgyne possibility, it really would be a good place for you to get to know yourself without imposing constraints upon yourself. At some point, you will be more readily equipped to understand whether you are CD, TS, or a mutt, like me. :)
Rebis
Quote from: Alice on August 15, 2007, 09:50:09 PM
For all intense and purposes it looks as if I am going to at least try HRT in the future just to see where I stand. But for now I consider myself a cross dresser with lot of anguish (depression, suicidal etc).
Ok, whatever works for you. It's just that I've followed you on your journey and your experience sounds nothing like any CDs I've known. :-\ What really shocked me was when I heard a few of the ones I knew proudly declare themselves to be men in dresses. :o I just absolutely could not fathom being proud of that.
Quote from: Melissa on August 15, 2007, 10:04:19 PM
Ok, whatever works for you. It's just that I've followed you on your journey and your experience sounds nothing like any CDs I've known. :-\ What really shocked me was when I heard a few of the ones I knew proudly declare themselves to be men in dresses. :o I just absolutely could not fathom being proud of that.
I am trying to work out where I fit - I do relise that many CDs would never contemplate HRT. I have gone to a few otrher chat sites and some CDs do relise they are TS and transistion (could be my future), and some seam to be happy where they are and hence have no reason to transision.
What is your experience with CDs. What do the CDs you know do?
(yes - I am still learning as well).
Alice
Alice, the "true" CDs I have met are repulsed by the idea of transitioning and especially of SRS. One told me last week: "Good God, no! I still want to have my fun."
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)
Quote from: Kristi on August 15, 2007, 10:12:10 PM
Alice, the "true" CDs I have met are repulsed by the idea of transitioning and especially of SRS. One told me last week: "Good God, no! I still want to have my fun."
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)
I will repeat what Lisbeth said:
I'm afraid that the same can be said about some people who call themselves
"transsexual".
tink :icon_chick:
Quote from: Alice on August 15, 2007, 10:10:20 PMWhat is your experience with CDs. What do the CDs you know do?
Most of my experience with CDs is through my support group. I did go up to a TG conference this past May where there were hundreds of CDs and TS. The difference was quite apparent. Now, I certainly don't claim to be an expert or even claim that I really understand CDs, but I can offer my observations. CDs always seem to have the most blissful expressions when I see them as if they are living out their greatest fantasy. I have rarely seen happier people. TS's on the other hand, tend to take their transitions and womanhood much more seriously and are usually much more reserved.
I just want to be comfortable in my own skin and not have depression. I recognise being female would be a better fit given my likes ETC - but at the same time I have never hated being male. If someone gave me a way to live life as a male without depression and without me breaking down as before I would take it. No-one has told me what to do to make that options a reality.
And another thing - before I did not mind wearing my skirt arround my house without a wig. Now I need to put on a wig - I do not want to be 'hey guy in a skirt' hence different. I have had my times in a skirt where I do feel so happy I have a smile for ear to ear. That is what worries me - I am to happy like that - like it was ment to be - hense I wonder if I am CD or TS. From what I know a lots of CDs go throught this - some become TS and some find their comfort level. But it is a turbulent time in their lives while they figure out their place.
Alice
But if...
Quote from: Alice on August 15, 2007, 10:20:37 PM
I recognise being female would be a better fit
Then why do you say...
QuoteIf someone gave me a way to live life as a male without depression and without me breaking down as before I would take it.
Kate,
I can only assume it is because she already has the body to match.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Quote from: Lisbeth on August 15, 2007, 09:51:04 PM
Quote from: Megan on August 15, 2007, 06:16:45 PM
Perhaps we need more men in dresses that are aware of and concerned about women's issues.
I think the same could also be said of a number of people who call themselves transsexuals.
I was going to post something about that but I restrained myself. ::)
TSs that work with women and hang out with women are going to have a hard time not becoming aware of women's issues, and if they are living as women then they are going to be personally concerned with those issues too, I would think. The ones I know that make me roll my eyes aren't doing any of that, I don't think.
With the "straight" CDs I know, the pressure they feel to stay closeted or semi-closeted is connected to women's issues, but I'm not sure how well they understand the connections. I do see that as long as they remain largely in the closet (outside of CD events) it will be harder for them to lobby for change, but there are still things they can do without giving themselves away that might make a difference.
Just
having CD groups that other people occasionally hear about makes a difference, I suppose. There are also differences that come out of "negotiations" in CD households. "You can cross-dress under these conditions if..." It's a start.
I see CDing as something that works for a lot of people without creating problems for me. That's why I support it.
Quote from: Kate on August 15, 2007, 10:23:15 PM
But if...
Quote from: Alice on August 15, 2007, 10:20:37 PM
I recognise being female would be a better fit
Then why do you say...
QuoteIf someone gave me a way to live life as a male without depression and without me breaking down as before I would take it.
What is the saying - only transistion if you absolutly need to.
As I said - I have never hated being male it just that I am not female. Without my female feelings I would be a happy male and getting on with life. But now these female feelings overwelm me sometimes and I am coming to the state in my life where I need to fix the problem to be happy. If I could get rid of my female feelings - that would be ok. But for now if I want to be happy I have to be either a CD or TS.
Aice
Hi Alice. I can not tell you *what* you are; I can only offer my input. What you are is something you need to figure out yourself. I will say this: Listen to your heart, even over what your head says. What it says is will tell you more than any person or book could ever tell you. Listening to your heart is a way of looking into your subconscious, which is generally far more accurate than you conscious is.
That is so hard to do Melissa which is why I feel so trapped. My logic has always said I am male (look at my body) But the sub-consious gives the indication of saying you are female. My sub-consious knows it want the HRT - but my head says no. My sub-conious is slowly but surly winning out.
Alice
See, that's what I mean by the heart being more important to listen to than the head. I realized this right away and surrendered to what my heart was saying pretty quickly, which made it much easier to sort things out and begin transition.
Quote from: Alice on August 15, 2007, 10:20:37 PM
...And another thing - before I did not mind wearing my skirt arround my house without a wig. Now I need to put on a wig - I do not want to be 'hey guy in a skirt' hence different.
There are so many things that could be. If you can only be female part of the time, I can see wanting all or nothing. I wear a partial when I am out in public, and I wouldn't usually think of wearing it at home. I've even been known not to put it on for company. But then I have shoulder-length hair that is just thin on top. It depends upon your circumstances.
Quote
I have had my times in a skirt where I do feel so happy I have a smile for ear to ear. That is what worries me - I am to happy like that - like it was ment to be - hense I wonder if I am CD or TS. From what I know a lots of CDs go throught this - some become TS and some find their comfort level. But it is a turbulent time in their lives while they figure out their place.
You have to try things to find out, not just sit around and wonder. I spent most of my life completely in the closet. Then I decided to come out "hoping" I was a CD (and ignoring a lifetime of GID issues). But as soon as I started going out as Megan my concept of cross-dressing reversed. Now the old way felt like cross-dressing. I looked for opportunities to go out publicly, and people started telling me that I was a different and more likeable person when I did that and would I please keep doing it.
If I hadn't taken that chance, I never would have known. I certainly didn't believe that any level of acceptance was possible. But once I saw that it could work, I found myself on the slippery slope, and eventually I slid in, after watching a few other friends take the plunge. And now I have a partner I love, and a social life, and many things are open to me that were not before.
No, it's not at all the life that I was brought up to believe I should have. But what was I so worried about?
maybe we have to try to agree with some of the definition of what it is to be a CD or a TS. There seems to be different views of a CD and a TS base on different experiences that basically 'generalized' the whole category.
perhaps the real question can be what did part of the CD community have done to be demonized as a whole in the TG community? ;p
Take any group of people and give them time.
They'll find some way to divide themselves. I'm not kidding.
Yes, CD's are demonized in groups of other TG groups. I'm not saying it's right. It is wrong. But it happens.
"You are not like me" is a very uncomfortable feeling for most people.
Cindi
Quote from: Cindi Jones on August 16, 2007, 12:40:57 AM
Take any group of people and give them time.
They'll find some way to divide themselves. I'm not kidding.
Yes, CD's are demonized in groups of other TG groups. I'm not saying it's right. It is wrong. But it happens.
"You are not like me" is a very uncomfortable feeling for most people.
Cindi
Cindi is quite correct and it even happens within the CD frequency of the Gender spectrum. Take a look at Tri-Ess, the group for "heterosexual" crossdressers and family. Now setting up a group for CD's that reassures family that hubby's ok is fine. The problem is that I've known a few members of this group and they look down on CD's that might prefer to spend Saturday night on the arm of a 6'6 ' gorgeous hunk of man. LOL In other words, if you're bi or gay, don't hang around with a Tri-Ess member.
Beverly
Quote from: cyanide on August 15, 2007, 11:34:45 PM
perhaps the real question can be what did part of the CD community have done to be demonized as a whole in the TG community? ;p
They didn't do anything? As it was said above, it just happens in various groups. For the TS, there is a lot of adjustment that takes place in their lives--in many cases, they will have to change *everything* about their lives. It quite often seems that the CD does not realize the magnitude of stress a TS will go through as they transition, which may include losing all friends, going through divorce, losing their children, maybe their parents now shun them, and there's a good chance they may lose their job and may not be able to find more work.
Then a CD will come along and say something like "You are so lucky, my wife won't let me cross-dress at home because she doesn't like it, so I don't get to do it that often." A statement like this clearly demonstrates that this person has absolutely no comprehension of the ordeal a TS goes through, and this statement strongly implies that they think a TS is only transitioning to "cross dress" fulltime. When a TS lashes out, it is merely from the frustration of being so misunderstood.
Quote from: Elizabeth on August 13, 2007, 09:37:52 PM
Quote from: cyanide on August 13, 2007, 07:18:56 PM
i am confused actually.... because i for one do believe that CD and TS are the same. am i wrong?
Elizabeth: you mentioned that you now relize that CD and TS are indeed different... in what way?
(for a second i was happy that someone agreed with me ;) )
now i am not so sure what to think.
1. I don't enjoy anything about being male
2. I want to alter my body permanently
3. I am not motivated to do this from sexual turn on
In those ways we are different. I don't want to look like a woman, I want to be a woman. All the time.
Love always,
Elizabeth
What about someone who wants to look like a woman all the time? =p
Quote from: asiangurliee on August 16, 2007, 12:15:58 PM
What about someone who wants to look like a woman all the time? =p
Probably transgender a.k.a. non-op.
I think that there is also something that has been overlooked in the context of this discussion. Yes, there are those who will divide a group because your baseball cap carries a different logo.
However, you can also find group members who are all inclusive and accept individuals as equals under all circumstances. In this respect, this forum is unique. Yes, we do have some very "active" discussions. Yet, there is a very good sense of cohesiveness which you don't normally find in other groups of social "deviants".
Cindi
Quote from: Nichole W. on August 16, 2007, 04:32:29 PM
It's a difficult pattern and response to break. Is it inborn or just deeply learned? I don't have any idea. But, it is there, in pretty much all of us. I need to be very conscious of how I speak and write to avoid it.
Nichole
Another transcends to view the big picture.....
Cindi
Quote from: Nichole W. on August 16, 2007, 04:32:29 PM
Yet, look at the exchange just above her post. The exchange is probably joking, esp the initial post.
But the point is that a definition was included, a marker. This is that. To say that he is that and I am this is to immediately, intellectually form a separation between me and him. Even "social deviants" do it among ourselves.
I didn't say say this is that or whatever, I only offered a possible answer, which is why I prefixed it with "probably". Still, I don't claim to be perfect, because I know I'm far from it. :)
I think the point of all of this is that, while we are different in some ways, we all share one thing. This need to present ourselves as women. Me because I am one, CD'ers because they have a part of themselves that needs to be expressed as well. Even Harry Benjamin admits there is not a clear line between the ->-bleeped-<- and the transsexual.
Quote from: Harry Benjamin
If these attempts to define and classify the ->-bleeped-<- and the transsexual appear vague and unsatisfactory, it is because a sharp and scientific separation of the two syndromes is not possible. We have as yet no objective diagnostic methods at our disposal to differentiate between the two. We - often - have to take the statement of an emotionally disturbed individual, whose attitude may change like a mood or who is inclined to tell the doctor what he believes the doctor wants to hear. Furthermore, nature does not abide by rigid systems. The vicissitudes of life and love cause ebbs and flows in the emotions so that fixed boundaries cannot be drawn.
http://www.symposion.com/ijt/benjamin/chap_02.htmThe point is, Crossdressers suffer from some form or GD, in my opinion. In this regard they are no different than me. There suffering and self loathing no different. Their desire to be accepted and loved for who they are, rather than how they appear, no different.
Yes, it's true, crossdressers and transsexuals have differences, but we all suffer the same discrimination. We should all be supporting one another and not singling out anyone for any reason. I do think the most hurtful thing that is done to crossdressers is the implication, if not outright accusation, that they are just sex perverts. Even the sexually motivated crossdressers, still can only be what they are.
Love always,
Elizabeth
Quote from: Melissa on August 16, 2007, 12:07:35 PM
They didn't do anything? As it was said above, it just happens in various groups. For the TS, there is a lot of adjustment that takes place in their lives--in many cases, they will have to change *everything* about their lives. It quite often seems that the CD does not realize the magnitude of stress a TS will go through as they transition, which may include losing all friends, going through divorce, losing their children, maybe their parents now shun them, and there's a good chance they may lose their job and may not be able to find more work.
this doesn't mean that CDs all have it and do not have anything to worry about. CDs do have other stress to worry about too~ and...there probably are more CDs that are aware of the sacrafices and the hardship that a TS has to go through than one might think.
Hey Elizabeth,
Very nice points that you've brought up in your post. I've always thought that there was a differnce between a cross-dresser and a transsexual. Even though both will wear clothes of the oposite gender, the transsexual feels more of a need to become that gender than a cross-dresser does. Unfortunatey some people don't understand that and they just take us at face value that becasue we're dressed as woman than naturally we must be cross-dresser. Now I've been seriously thinking about transitioning for a long time, but one thing that alwasy comes back to me was what a therapist had told me about consequences. For this I'd be willing on losing my entire family. Right now I'm t hinking that if it can cure my depression, than I say "Yes."
Gina :icon_dance: :icon_geekdance:
Gina, I think I need to point out some important points about what you just said.
Quote from: gina_taylor on August 29, 2007, 05:47:03 AMEven though both will wear clothes of the oposite gender, the transsexual feels more of a need to become that gender than a cross-dresser does.
That's not quite right. A genuine transsexual actually has the gender identity of the opposite sex and therefore IS mentally the other gender. The transsexual therefore wears the clothes of their true gender and they feel a need to align their body with their mental gender.
There's a subtle (but extremely important) different between what we both said in that your statement says that
the TS is actually a man who wants the body of a woman, where mine said
the TS is a actually a woman who wants their body to match the gender they identify as.
Quote from: gina_taylor on August 29, 2007, 05:47:03 AMUnfortunatey some people don't understand that and they just take us at face value that becasue we're dressed as woman than naturally we must be cross-dresser.
Well, that's not necessarily true. When people see me dressed as a woman, they take me as a GG.
Quote from: gina_taylor on August 29, 2007, 05:47:03 AMNow I've been seriously thinking about transitioning for a long time, but one thing that alwasy comes back to me was what a therapist had told me about consequences. For this I'd be willing on losing my entire family. Right now I'm t hinking that if it can cure my depression, than I say "Yes."
you may want to think about this some more. Transition is not a cure for depression. In fact you will probably go through more depression during transition than you ever did beforehand. It's only a treatment for gender dysphoria and not actually a cure since it may never completely go away.
Sorry for the confusion Melissa. Thank you for pointing out my mistakes. I actually meant to say what you had said about a transsexual needing to align her body with her mental gender. I live in a very conservative town and even when I'm looking my best, society sees me more as a cross-dresser than they would a transexual woman. Now as for transitioning, I plan to be a full time cross-dresser without going through HRT or eventually SRS. I have a friend who went full time eight years ago, and like myself she's done nothing to alter her body, but I'm sure that as time passes I will be more accepted as a woman.
Gina :icon_geekdance:
I definitely think crossdressers are demonized by transsexuals. It's petty and stupid. Many will also make broad statements about crossdressers' motivations without actually listening to them. For example, statements like, "Crossdressers see themselves as men" or "They just do it because it turns them on." have been posted right in this thread by transsexuals.
Crossdressing can be a fetish for some, the feel of satin or stockings or lingerie can be arousing. Some go on to become transsexuals. This whole idea of "crossdressers do this or that or feel this way" is far too broad to explain all motivations.
However, at the risk of not heeding my own advice, let me make this statement: "Crossdressers are women, even if only part-time." The whole Tri-Ess name belies this ~ "The Society for the Second Self". In Jungian psychology, we have a model of the opposite gender living in our psyche which can be expressed as "the perfect woman" (or man) or by outwardly dressing that way to express that part of themselves.
Transsexuals think that crossdressers give them a bad name. Seriously, if people can read you, you are a "man in a dress" (not that there's anything wrong with that), no matter how you identify. Belittling crossdressers doesn't help you pass any better. Deal with your own life first.
Interesting conversation I had the other day. My friend (GG) and I had just gone shopping and I bought a new bra (at the thrift store), it was a bit lacy and she was sorta teasing me about it because I tend much more towards the very simple black or white ones, not light blue with clouds and flowers and lace. I told her I like being girly sometimes because I'm a crossdresser like that. To which she responded her usual of, "You're not a crossdresser, you're a girl." *grumble*
Anyway, she said that lacy things are good sometimes. She has certain panties which she wears sometimes under her normal clothes so she feels sexy all day long. I said that's no different from crossdressers who wear panties under their normal clothes so they can feel sexy all day long. Who wouldn't want that?
So y'all quit hatin' on crossdressers. There's no clear line between crossdressers and transsexuals. Live and learn, you'll figure it out.
Yeah, what Zoe said.
My opinion?
"Demonized" is a very strong adjective.
Misunderstood is probably a better term. While I agree that some (not all) cross-dressers may suffer from
some form of gender dysphoria, it is also true that some CD's are transvestic fetishists. BTW gender identity pertains to one's core identity as being male, female, or other. Transsexualism is a
severe form of gender identity disorder; hence IMO a crossdresser is neither transsexual nor can become one. I don't support any notion that implies otherwise.
True, some transsexuals may experience some cross-dressing behavior prior to coming out, but their motivations are gender related; there's also a group of people referred to as transgenderists (http://www.firelily.com/gender/gianna/transgenderists.html) who may cross-dress to fullfill a gender identity gap, but they are not what is commonly known as ->-bleeped-<-s or cross-dressers.
Quote->-bleeped-<-s wish they were women.
Most reasons for crossdressing do not involve transsexual desires, i.e., a wish to physically change sex. Although crossdressers uniformly enjoy wearing women's clothes, the majority seldom want to live their lives as women, nor do they want to become women. They simply want to be like women. A very few ->-bleeped-<-s have chosen to crossdress all of the time and live totally as women, i.e., a transgenderist. But even these men have no desire to have sex reassignment surgery. It is true that prior to having such surgery, a transsexual must crossdress and live as a woman for a year or more. During this time they often receive female hormones and their secondary sex characteristics will become markedly feminine. These people are known as preoperative transsexuals, and should not be confused with ->-bleeped-<-s or transgenderists.
Most ->-bleeped-<-s, as opposed to transsexuals, enjoy being men. As spouses, they are content being husbands rather than wives. As parents, they are happy with the role of father and do not wish to become mothers. While they refer to other crossdressers as "sisters," this is an acknowledgment of the special bond which they share. Additionally, the preference expressed by many crossdressers for being referred to with female pronouns and for using feminine names is related to their appearance rather than to their basic gender identity.
Quote extracted from this link:
http://www.bigeye.com/sexeducation/->-bleeped-<-s.html
tink :icon_chick:
I like to ask the question, "Where is she (or he) on the TG spectrum?) I like to know what makes each individual distinct, but those distinctions for me don't make a difference.
I've said it before -- I don't like this hierarchy thing I see -- postie with FFS beats a postie without beats a pre-op fulltime RLE beats a weekday boymode on 'mones beats an out-of-the-closet weekend warrior beats a closeted, etc.
Everyone is at their optimum place at that given time.
I'm thinking that those who are more deeply into TG (i.e., RLE, post-op,) may, if they're still insecure about themselves, feel threatened by someone who is happily CD and still has some virilization noticeable in their presentation or behaviour.
My two cents...
Karen
Quote from: Karen on August 30, 2007, 09:48:32 PM
I like to ask the question, "Where is she (or he) on the TG spectrum?)
At the extreme of the spectrum
QuoteI like to know what makes each individual distinct,
Experiences
Quotebut those distinctions for me don't make a difference.
They do for me. We've got different opinions.
QuoteI've said it before -- I don't like this hierarchy thing I see
Employing definitions to define peeps is not hierarchy. Pity that some view it that way. ::)
QuoteEveryone is at their optimum place at that given time.
Are you saying that ->-bleeped-<-s are at their optimum place to "become" trans?
Lol :laugh: I disagree Karen. My apologies. Tv's are Tv's, trans are trans.
QuoteI'm thinking that those who are more deeply into TG (i.e., RLE, post-op,) may, if they're still insecure about themselves, feel threatened by someone who is happily CD and still has some virilization noticeable in their presentation or behaviour.
My two cents...
Karen
Or it could be that we dont want to be called something we are not. Why does everything has got to do with "hierarchy and insecurity"? ::) Everytime peeps disagree with others, their disagreement is seen as "hierarchy". It's ludicrous and immature to think that way. Mon Dieu!
Quote from: Jeannette on August 30, 2007, 11:23:27 PM
Quote from: Karen on August 30, 2007, 09:48:32 PM
I like to ask the question, "Where is she (or he) on the TG spectrum?)
At the extreme of the spectrum
QuoteI like to know what makes each individual distinct,
Experiences
Quotebut those distinctions for me don't make a difference.
They do for me. We've got different opinions.
QuoteI've said it before -- I don't like this hierarchy thing I see
Employing definitions to define peeps is not hierarchy. Pity that some view it that way. ::)
QuoteEveryone is at their optimum place at that given time.
Are you saying that ->-bleeped-<-s are at their optimum place to "become" trans?
Lol :laugh: I disagree Karen. My apologies. Tv's are Tv's, trans are trans.
QuoteI'm thinking that those who are more deeply into TG (i.e., RLE, post-op,) may, if they're still insecure about themselves, feel threatened by someone who is happily CD and still has some virilization noticeable in their presentation or behaviour.
My two cents...
Karen
Or it could be that we dont want to be called something we are not. Why does everything has got to do with "hierarchy and insecurity"? ::) Everytime peeps disagree with others, their disagreement is seen as "hierarchy". It's ludicrous and immature to think that way. Mon Dieu!
I second to what Jeannette has said. I find it amusing that someone gets offended when one says
->-bleeped-<-. Why? if one is a ->-bleeped-<-, more power to them, one should be proud of who one is. I dont want to be called a ->-bleeped-<- because I am not one. It isnt hierarchy. It is just what I am not. So now, only because I don't call ->-bleeped-<-s
transsexuals, I am discriminating against ->-bleeped-<-s? Like my American friends say, give me a break, will you? ::)
I believe there is a definite condescending attitude towards crossdressers within the Transsexual community. There is a huge difference between saying " I don't want to be called one because that is not what I am" and not wanting to be called a crossdresser because you don't want to be viewed as someone with a sexual compulsion to dress as a female. It's not a big secret that in the nontransgendered world, those who are satisfied with their gender, are more accepting of those "born in the wrong body" as opposed to those who dress like a girl and then masturbate and get undressed. This is considered "kinky" type sexual behavior and is frowned upon publically, even though many people privately engage in quite a bit of "kink".
If we are talking about what is and is not acceptable social behavior, removing one's genitals is pretty socially unacceptable to most people. Many people just think us insane. Just like people who want limbs removed for reasons they can't explain but can not be happy until the offending part is removed. To most people sex change = insane.
But? If one can pass flawlessly and never tell anyone about who they are, they can live without being stigmatized. So? If you only live as a woman a few days a month or even a few days a year for many crossdressers, it's not huge is someone thinks you are a sexual fetishist. They are prolly strangers and in a place not likely to identify you personally. But if you are a transsexual, you are out all the time with people who know you intimately. Many of them don't want to be associated with a "sexual pervert", so if you don't pass, making friends may not be too easy.
But many crossdressers and others who don't pass very well seem to make straight friends all the time. Many with quite conservative views. How can this be? It's because many people realize that the rules that society imposes is an insanely ridiculous standard that no one could ever hope to meet, and they don't want to try.
And that's where I am at. I mean I would love to be passable all the time, but I am not. That means I have to make friends with people who don't care about the unwritten rules of society either. So? I live by the written rules and fortunately for me, I live in a state that has pretty good written rules to protect my rights as a human being. So as long as I follow the rules, I have just as much right to be here as anyone else, no matter how I am dressed.
I see crossdressers no differently. Why they do what they do is of little concern to me and if someone confuses me with a crossdresser, that is ok too, because I used to make that same mistake when I thought the two words were interchangeable. No one needs to know my motivations, it should be enough that I want to. It should be of no one's concern but my own. So that is how I live my life.
But really, let's not pretend like there is not a hierarchy and condescension all the way down that hierarchy. We have all seen it and I am quite sure I could do a few searches and come up with plenty of threads to support that claim.
And you know what? Even though no one wants to talk about it, we all know why it happens.
Love always,
Elizabeth
All of you know I'm blunt & never adorn my words. I'm going to say one thing. A transsexual isn't a crossdresser or a ->-bleeped-<-. I also have the right to distance myself from peeps that aren't like me and don't share any common ground. Hierarchy? so be it.! Dunno what else to say.
Quote from: Yvonne on August 31, 2007, 06:27:24 AM
A transsexual isn't a crossdresser or a ->-bleeped-<-. I also have the right to distance myself from peeps that aren't like me and don't share any common ground. Hierarchy? so be it.! Dunno what else to say.
It may sound very straightforward but I agree with Yvonne. We're all different peeps and associate with those that best fit our interests and goals. It's a fact of life. We assimilate much better with peeps that we identify with.
Quote from: Yvonne on August 31, 2007, 06:27:24 AM
All of you know I'm blunt & never adorn my words. I'm going to say one thing. A transsexual isn't a crossdresser or a ->-bleeped-<-. I also have the right to distance myself from peeps that aren't like me and don't share any common ground. Hierarchy? so be it.! Dunno what else to say.
Harry Benjamin does not agree.
Quote from: Harry Benjamin
The relationship between transvestism (TVism) and transsexualism (TSism) deserves further scrutiny and reflection. Both can be considered symptoms or syndromes of the same underlying psychopathological condition, that of a sex or gender role disorientation and indecision. Transvestism is the minor though the more frequent, transsexualism the much more serious although rarer disorder.
http://www.symposion.com/ijt/benjamin/chap_02.htmI think all in all, I'll take Harry Benjamin's opinion, since he was one of the first to study and treat transsexuals. I think if one thing should be clear to everyone, it's that there is something underlying all of this that makes anyone dissatisfied with their gender, that is common to all of us. The fact that this relationship can not be quantified, does not mean it does not exist.
Love always,
Elizabeth
Quote from: Butterfly on August 31, 2007, 03:57:32 PM
We're all different peeps and associate with those that best fit our interests and goals. It's a fact of life. We assimilate much better with peeps that we identify with.
I think there's a lot of truth in that statement. And I think that for many of us that is all that is going on. We recognize and respect the differences in each other. But not for everyone. For some, especially us MTFs, there is a true pecking order with the "non-peckers" at the top. (Sorry about the terrible pun.)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Enlightening link Elizabeth.
Quote from: Harry BenjaminThe majority of ->-bleeped-<-s are overtly heterosexual, but many may be latent bisexuals. They "feel" as men and know that they are men, marry, and often raise families. A few of them, however, especially when they are "dressed," can as part of their female role react homosexually to the attentions of an unsuspecting normal man. The ->-bleeped-<-'s marriage is frequently endangered as only relatively few wives can tolerate seeing their husbands in female attire
Quote from: Harry BenjaminThe transsexual (TS) male or female is deeply unhappy as a member of the sex (or gender) to which he or she was assigned by the anatomical structure of the body, particularly the genitals. To avoid misunderstanding: this has nothing to do with hermaphroditism. The transsexual is physically normal (although occasionally underdeveloped) [2]. These persons can somewhat appease their unhappiness by dressing in the clothes of the opposite sex, that is to say, by cross-dressing, and they are, therefore, ->-bleeped-<-s too. But while "dressing" would satisfy the true ->-bleeped-<- (who is content with his morphological sex), it is only incidental and not more than a partial or temporary help to the transsexual. True transsexuals feel that they belong to the other sex, they want to be and function as members of the opposite sex, not only to appear as such. For them, their sex organs, the primary (testes) as well as the secondary (penis and others) are disgusting deformities that must be changed by the surgeon's knife. This attitude appears to be the chief differential diagnostic point between the two syndromes (sets of symptoms) - that is, those of transvestism and transsexualism
http://www.symposion.com/ijt/benjamin/chap_02.htmThe thing is that if you want to be called a ->-bleeped-<-, so be it. I'm a woman, but if you wanna label me as something else rather than woman, I'd take the term transsexual. Thank you kindly.
Quote from: Yvonne on August 31, 2007, 04:34:54 PM
Enlightening link Elizabeth.
Quote from: Harry BenjaminThe majority of ->-bleeped-<-s are overtly heterosexual, but many may be latent bisexuals. They "feel" as men and know that they are men, marry, and often raise families. A few of them, however, especially when they are "dressed," can as part of their female role react homosexually to the attentions of an unsuspecting normal man. The ->-bleeped-<-'s marriage is frequently endangered as only relatively few wives can tolerate seeing their husbands in female attire
Quote from: Harry BenjaminThe transsexual (TS) male or female is deeply unhappy as a member of the sex (or gender) to which he or she was assigned by the anatomical structure of the body, particularly the genitals. To avoid misunderstanding: this has nothing to do with hermaphroditism. The transsexual is physically normal (although occasionally underdeveloped) [2]. These persons can somewhat appease their unhappiness by dressing in the clothes of the opposite sex, that is to say, by cross-dressing, and they are, therefore, ->-bleeped-<-s too. But while "dressing" would satisfy the true ->-bleeped-<- (who is content with his morphological sex), it is only incidental and not more than a partial or temporary help to the transsexual. True transsexuals feel that they belong to the other sex, they want to be and function as members of the opposite sex, not only to appear as such. For them, their sex organs, the primary (testes) as well as the secondary (penis and others) are disgusting deformities that must be changed by the surgeon's knife. This attitude appears to be the chief differential diagnostic point between the two syndromes (sets of symptoms) - that is, those of transvestism and transsexualism
http://www.symposion.com/ijt/benjamin/chap_02.htm
The thing is that if you want to be called a ->-bleeped-<-, so be it. I'm a woman, but if you wanna label me as something else rather than woman, I'd take the term transsexual. Thank you kindly.
Why would you think I want to be called a ->-bleeped-<-? All I was saying is that I am not offended by it. I see how people make this mistake. Obviously there is a difference between ->-bleeped-<-s and transsexuals or we would not have different names for them. Having said that, there are also similarities. I am not suggesting you are a ->-bleeped-<-, just that whatever you are, it has something in common with ->-bleeped-<-s.
You know it's kinda like creationists who say "I didn't come from monkeys". Well, evolution doesn't say that humans come from monkeys. It says that humans and monkeys have a common ancestor. There is no missing link. This is kinda the same thing. Transsexuals and ->-bleeped-<-s are not the same thing, but they have something that underlies this feeling of being the wrong gender that we all share. Some only feel it once in a while, others are overwhelmed by it.
Love always,
Elizabeth
Quote from: Elizabeth on August 31, 2007, 04:18:19 PM
Quote from: Yvonne on August 31, 2007, 06:27:24 AM
All of you know I'm blunt & never adorn my words. I'm going to say one thing. A transsexual isn't a crossdresser or a ->-bleeped-<-. I also have the right to distance myself from peeps that aren't like me and don't share any common ground. Hierarchy? so be it.! Dunno what else to say.
Harry Benjamin does not agree.
Quote from: Harry Benjamin
The relationship between transvestism (TVism) and transsexualism (TSism) deserves further scrutiny and reflection. Both can be considered symptoms or syndromes of the same underlying psychopathological condition, that of a sex or gender role disorientation and indecision. Transvestism is the minor though the more frequent, transsexualism the much more serious although rarer disorder.
http://www.symposion.com/ijt/benjamin/chap_02.htm
I think all in all, I'll take Harry Benjamin's opinion, since he was one of the first to study and treat transsexuals. I think if one thing should be clear to everyone, it's that there is something underlying all of this that makes anyone dissatisfied with their gender, that is common to all of us. The fact that this relationship can not be quantified, does not mean it does not exist.
Love always,
Elizabeth
I must respectfully disagree, Elizabeth.
While some ->-bleeped-<-s may have transgender feelings, transvestism is first and foremost a paraphilia.
Transvestism is just a step above fetishism - just a step above and beyond a man who wacks off whilst sniffing women's panties. The ->-bleeped-<- goes further by needing the panties on his own hindy to get off.
Transvestism is a medically recognized paraphilia.
Transvestism vs Transsexualism
Paraphilia vs Identity
I can understand why a woman would not wish to be associated with a man who wears panties to sate his sexual appetite.
Quote from: Nero on August 31, 2007, 05:09:37 PM
I must respectfully disagree, Elizabeth.
While some ->-bleeped-<-s may have transgender feelings, transvestism is first and foremost a paraphilia.
Transvestism is just a step above fetishism - just a step above and beyond a man who wacks off whilst sniffing women's panties. The ->-bleeped-<- goes further by needing the panties on his own hindy to get off.
Transvestism is a medically recognized paraphilia.
Transvestism vs Transsexualism
Paraphilia vs Identity
I can understand why a woman would not wish to be associated with a man who wears panties to sate his sexual appetite.
This is precisely why many crossdressers who crossdress because of feelings of gender dysphoria do not want to be referred to as ->-bleeped-<-s. The transgender world is not neatly divided into paraphiliac ->-bleeped-<-s on one side and transsexuals on the other. There are lots of us who are neither.
Quote from: Louise on August 31, 2007, 05:45:31 PM
Quote from: Nero on August 31, 2007, 05:09:37 PM
I must respectfully disagree, Elizabeth.
While some ->-bleeped-<-s may have transgender feelings, transvestism is first and foremost a paraphilia.
Transvestism is just a step above fetishism - just a step above and beyond a man who wacks off whilst sniffing women's panties. The ->-bleeped-<- goes further by needing the panties on his own hindy to get off.
Transvestism is a medically recognized paraphilia.
Transvestism vs Transsexualism
Paraphilia vs Identity
I can understand why a woman would not wish to be associated with a man who wears panties to sate his sexual appetite.
This is precisely why many crossdressers who crossdress because of feelings of gender dysphoria do not want to be referred to as ->-bleeped-<-s. The transgender world is not neatly divided into paraphiliac ->-bleeped-<-s on one side and transsexuals on the other. There are lots of us who are neither.
True. I can see why a crossdresser with transgender feelings would not wish to be associated with paraphiliacs.
Quote from: Louise on August 31, 2007, 05:45:31 PM
Quote from: Nero on August 31, 2007, 05:09:37 PM
I must respectfully disagree, Elizabeth.
While some ->-bleeped-<-s may have transgender feelings, transvestism is first and foremost a paraphilia.
Transvestism is just a step above fetishism - just a step above and beyond a man who wacks off whilst sniffing women's panties. The ->-bleeped-<- goes further by needing the panties on his own hindy to get off.
Transvestism is a medically recognized paraphilia.
Transvestism vs Transsexualism
Paraphilia vs Identity
I can understand why a woman would not wish to be associated with a man who wears panties to sate his sexual appetite.
This is precisely why many crossdressers who crossdress because of feelings of gender dysphoria do not want to be referred to as ->-bleeped-<-s. The transgender world is not neatly divided into paraphiliac ->-bleeped-<-s on one side and transsexuals on the other. There are lots of us who are neither.
It turns out that paraphillia's are not mental disorders and probably will not appear in the DSM-V. Right now in order to be diagnosed with a paraphillia one must not only have the behavior, but it must cause significant distress. Furthermore, this distress can not caused by either public or private scorn for the behavior. It must cause you distress personally. As it turns out, this almost never happens. People who exhibit paraphillic behavior rarely want to quit their behavior. It turns out that paraphillic behavior is more of a variance of human behavior than it is a disorder. Paraphillias are more of a social construct or taboo's than anything else.
Also, there are plenty of people who crossdress that are not doing it to fulfill a sexual need. Granted there are those crossdressers who do, but there are also many transsexuals that exhibit transvestic behavior. All I am saying is that this line is not clear and clean. Many transsexuals report having crossdressed and having high sex drives prior to HRT and GRS. There is no rule that covers everyone. If you read the article I referenced above, Dr Benjamin explains it.
Love always,
Elizabeth
It a circle really. So many crossdressers (esspesially insecure hetrosexual crossdressers) spend so much effort seperating themselves from the TG community that many in the TG community and support system have gotten tired of holding out the olive branch and just given up. Many have taken a "fine, go it on your own" attitude.
Its really sad but often there is a breaking point.
In my own experience with TS support groups, most TS prior to transition DON''T crossdress, do they might have done so episodically in the past. That's my case and the case of all those I know in the few groups I've been in.
Cross dressing is of little help to a TS and in fact may even be more distressing considering how fake it seems.
Quote from: Keira on August 31, 2007, 07:55:35 PM
In my own experience with TS support groups, most TS prior to transition DON''T crossdress, do they might have done so episodically in the past. That's my case and the case of all those I know in the few groups I've been in.
Cross dressing is of little help to a TS and in fact may even be more distressing considering how fake it seems.
Seconded!
tink :icon_chick:
Quote from: Keira on August 31, 2007, 07:55:35 PM
In my own experience with TS support groups, most TS prior to transition DON''T crossdress, do they might have done so episodically in the past. That's my case and the case of all those I know in the few groups I've been in.
Cross dressing is of little help to a TS and in fact may even be more distressing considering how fake it seems.
Keira, well said.
I am just mortified of looking or being perceived as fake. One shop where I go has a mixture of TS and CD customers. We actually talk about this. Their way of seeing the dressing issue is so foreign to me, and mine to them. One of my friends was getting a makeover the first time I met her. She still came out looking rather manly with a voice like a bullfrog. She was very pleased. I would have given up. But that's just the difference between us. She wants to be feminine. I want to be female.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)
Quote from: Kristi on August 31, 2007, 10:12:36 PM
Quote from: Keira on August 31, 2007, 07:55:35 PM
In my own experience with TS support groups, most TS prior to transition DON''T crossdress, do they might have done so episodically in the past. That's my case and the case of all those I know in the few groups I've been in.
Cross dressing is of little help to a TS and in fact may even be more distressing considering how fake it seems.
Keira, well said.
I am just mortified of looking or being perceived as fake. One shop where I go has a mixture of TS and CD customers. We actually talk about this. Their way of seeing the dressing issue is so foreign to me, and mine to them. One of my friends was getting a makeover the first time I met her. She still came out looking rather manly with a voice like a bullfrog. She was very pleased. I would have given up. But that's just the difference between us. She wants to be feminine. I want to be female.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)
I find the image of a grown man following his heart by dressing imperfectly as a woman and being happy about it to be kind of cute.
Quote from: Keira on August 31, 2007, 07:55:35 PM
In my own experience with TS support groups, most TS prior to transition DON''T crossdress, do they might have done so episodically in the past. That's my case and the case of all those I know in the few groups I've been in.
Cross dressing is of little help to a TS and in fact may even be more distressing considering how fake it seems.
When I went for counselling about my gender identity problems my counsellor told me my history suggested I was positively transsexual. She was surprised that I wasn't in the habit of dressing even on an occasional basis. In fact I hadn't attempted to crossdress in any form for many years until very recently, when I decided I'd like to buy just a few tops and some womens jeans from the Additions website. Whilst online just like any woman I was tempted and succumbed to buying a cheap but tasteful black dress as well as some earrings and a necklace. Thank god for credit cards. Although I don't get any sexual kick out of dressing, just seeing the reflection of myself in them (after applying makeup of course) made me feel so good and I no longer worry so much about passing - I know that if called upon I could go out and feel confident about my appearance. Together with the work I've done to femininise my voice I could get by if I started transition. It was a great confidence booster for me, although I have so many other personal issues to resolve transition is still far off for me, even if it remains my goal.
Quote from: Rebis on August 31, 2007, 10:31:44 PM
Quote from: Kristi on August 31, 2007, 10:12:36 PM
Quote from: Keira on August 31, 2007, 07:55:35 PM
In my own experience with TS support groups, most TS prior to transition DON''T crossdress, do they might have done so episodically in the past. That's my case and the case of all those I know in the few groups I've been in.
Cross dressing is of little help to a TS and in fact may even be more distressing considering how fake it seems.
Keira, well said.
I am just mortified of looking or being perceived as fake. One shop where I go has a mixture of TS and CD customers. We actually talk about this. Their way of seeing the dressing issue is so foreign to me, and mine to them. One of my friends was getting a makeover the first time I met her. She still came out looking rather manly with a voice like a bullfrog. She was very pleased. I would have given up. But that's just the difference between us. She wants to be feminine. I want to be female.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)
I find the image of a grown man following his heart by dressing imperfectly as a woman and being happy about it to be kind of cute.
Me too. Life's too short. Be you. Plus who doesn't think Eddie Izzard is sexy?
Posted on: September 01, 2007, 01:34:03 PM
Quote from: Keira on August 31, 2007, 07:55:35 PM
In my own experience with TS support groups, most TS prior to transition DON''T crossdress, do they might have done so episodically in the past. That's my case and the case of all those I know in the few groups I've been in.
Cross dressing is of little help to a TS and in fact may even be more distressing considering how fake it seems.
I don't really understand what qualifies as crossdressing for a TS. I dressed in women's clothes for most of my life growing up, but it was not in public. To me it was just about being able to express my gender identity somewhere even if it was just my own home. I don't really consider it crossdressing, but I don't know how else to explain it. Like is presenting male before a mtf comes out, considered the crossdressing bit?
Quote from: Keira on August 31, 2007, 07:55:35 PM
In my own experience with TS support groups, most TS prior to transition DON''T crossdress, do they might have done so episodically in the past. That's my case and the case of all those I know in the few groups I've been in.
Cross dressing is of little help to a TS and in fact may even be more distressing considering how fake it seems.
Again, Dr. Harry Benjamin would not agree. This is more like "True Transsexual Legend". Many transsexuals have a desire to crossdress.
Quote from: Harry Benjamin
The transsexual (TS) male or female is deeply unhappy as a member of the sex (or gender) to which he or she was assigned by the anatomical structure of the body, particularly the genitals. To avoid misunderstanding: this has nothing to do with hermaphroditism. The transsexual is physically normal (although occasionally underdeveloped) [2]. These persons can somewhat appease their unhappiness by dressing in the clothes of the opposite sex, that is to say, by cross-dressing, and they are, therefore, ->-bleeped-<-s too. But while "dressing" would satisfy the true ->-bleeped-<- (who is content with his morphological sex), it is only incidental and not more than a partial or temporary help to the transsexual. True transsexuals feel that they belong to the other sex, they want to be and function as members of the opposite sex, not only to appear as such. For them, their sex organs, the primary (testes) as well as the secondary (penis and others) are disgusting deformities that must be changed by the surgeon's knife. This attitude appears to be the chief differential diagnostic point between the two syndromes (sets of symptoms) - that is, those of transvestism and transsexualism.
http://www.symposion.com/ijt/benjamin/chap_02.htmLove always,
Elizabeth
Elisabeth, I believe I've been in contact in therapeutic circles with much more TS than you and that's what they said. Unless your calling these 40-50 people liars, I stand by what I said. Reality from so many people's mouth sort of trumps what some guy said in the 60's (very different times).
As I said, a TS may crossdress, but its usually not frequent unless they soon transition (its a step to transition) because its of no use to relieve GID.
There are doubtless exceptions, but if something is of no use, of even painfull, you won't do it; seems logical. For cross dressers, there is some relief of whatever GID by dressing, for most TS the relief from GID is only temporary; after a certain amount of time, usually counted in weeks, only anxiety and depression remains.
Quote from: Keira on September 01, 2007, 07:37:10 PM
Elisabeth, I believe I've been in contact in therapeutic circles with much more TS than you and that's what they said. Unless your calling these 40-50 people liars, I stand by what I said. Reality from so many people's mouth sort of trumps what some guy said in the 60's (very different times).
As I said, a TS may crossdress, but its usually not frequent unless they soon transition (its a step to transition) because its of no use to relieve GID.
There are doubtless exceptions, but if something is of no use, of even painfull, you won't do it; seems logical. For cross dressers, there is some relief of whatever GID by dressing, for most TS the relief from GID is only temporary; after a certain amount of time, usually counted in weeks, only anxiety and depression remains.
yeah. For someone with severe dysphoria, the stark constrast of looking male while wearing a dress would most likely be unbearable. Only serving to emphasize the problem.
Quote from: Rebis on August 31, 2007, 10:31:44 PM
I find the image of a grown man following his heart by dressing imperfectly as a woman and being happy about it to be kind of cute.
Well in case I wasn't very clear, I did too. I was just saying it wasn't for me.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Quote from: Keira on September 01, 2007, 07:37:10 PM
Elisabeth, I believe I've been in contact in therapeutic circles with much more TS than you and that's what they said. Unless your calling these 40-50 people liars, I stand by what I said. Reality from so many people's mouth sort of trumps what some guy said in the 60's (very different times).
As I said, a TS may crossdress, but its usually not frequent unless they soon transition (its a step to transition) because its of no use to relieve GID.
There are doubtless exceptions, but if something is of no use, of even painfull, you won't do it; seems logical. For cross dressers, there is some relief of whatever GID by dressing, for most TS the relief from GID is only temporary; after a certain amount of time, usually counted in weeks, only anxiety and depression remains.
This is very funny, kinda like, "when did you stop beating your wife?". You are basically saying that unless I believe what you said, I am calling 30-40 people liars? I never called anyone a liar, you included. You have your experience and Dr. Benjamin has his. All I said was that Dr. Benjamin did not agree with you. But for the record, I don't agree with you either. There are transsexuals on this site both post and pre HRT that crossdress. There are also transsexuals on this site who are now post op and they used to crossdress. Anyone that has not had GRS and is wearing clothes of their target gender, is crossdressing.
So to summarize, I believe that many transsexuals crossdress, Dr. Benjamin beleives transsexuals crossdress, there are many transsexuals on this site who crossdress and finally, you don't know any transsexuals that crossdress. So it's ok if you stand by what you say, I never disputed what your experience is or the validity of the people you got your information from. Now? If you have some published, peer reviewed work for me to look at, that supports your point of view, that would be great, but your experience is different than mine.
Love always,
Elizabeth
Since I disagree with even you assessment of people on this site, I think its pointless to argue about the rest.
As for crossdressing AFTER HRT!!!!! HUH!!!!
I don't know what your saying... After HRT your transitioning so how does that invalid what I'm saying...
Unless they're androgyne's or some kind of gender variant and thus what I'm saying doesn't apply to them anyway.
I'm talking of people with SEVERE GID here... Cross dressing for such is no relief unless its part of the process of transitioning.
Quote from: Keira on September 01, 2007, 07:37:10 PM
As I said, a TS may crossdress, but its usually not frequent unless they soon transition (its a step to transition) because its of no use to relieve GID.
I crossdressed, but only for a few years in my thirties (nothing before that), and generally only around Halloween... as it was one day of the year where I could safely try and pass in public as a female. It made me *miserable* though, as I generally just looked like "a guy in a dress" to myself, and the few times I looked reasonably OK, it was heartbreaking to know it was just a costume, an illusion. It was either a confirmation of how trapped as a male I was, or a cruel tease of what could have been.. but never would be now.
It's rather naive of me, but until just now, it never really sank in that many people are probably perfectly content just wearing women's clothing for the sake of wearing it... without any real concern of whether they look female or not. If I didn't feel I looked female, I just felt foolish and heartbroken... and would put it away and cry.
~Kate~
Quote from: Keira on September 01, 2007, 10:25:55 PM
Since I disagree with even you assessment of people on this site, I think its pointless to argue about the rest.
As for crossdressing AFTER HRT!!!!! HUH!!!!
I don't know what your saying... After HRT your transitioning so how does that invalid what I'm saying...
Unless they're androgyne's or some kind of gender variant and thus what I'm saying doesn't apply to them anyway.
I'm talking of people with SEVERE GID here... Cross dressing for such is no relief unless its part of the process of transitioning.
Maybe I just don't understand? Are you saying that it's only crossdressing if one is not on HRT? Or are you saying there is no urge to dress like a woman until HRT?. Or are you saying that everyone on HRT is transsexual and therefore not crossdressers and therefore can not crossdress by wearing target gender clothing, even though the clothes are of the opposite sex of the body?
Because I have trouble with those kinds of arguments. Are we down to saying that the suffering of the transsexual is more than the suffering of the closeted crossdresser, so therefore the transsexuals deserve validation, but the crossdressers don't? Because their reason for crossdressing is not as good as our reason for crossdressing? To me this is real simple. If someone were born with a male body and they are wearing the clothing of a female, regardless of what their motivation is, they are crossdressed. Once transition is complete, one is no longer crossdressed because their body becomes female.
Trust me, you get arrested and have a penis, you will not be sent to a woman's prison and you will not be allowed to wear women's clothing and you will not be permitted to take hormones. The law makes no distinction with regard to the date at which someone is officially diagnosed as GID. It appears to me that drawing a line in the sand at the day someone is officially diagnosed with GID, doesn't really make any sense to me.
If crossdressing did not solve the problem before the diagnosis, it certainly won't solve it after the diagnosis. So I don't see dressing in women's clothing as being less crossdressing just because someone has transitioned their life. To me, anyone that still has a penis and wears women's clothing, is a crossdresser, except possibly those who are intersexed. But even if this were true somehow, weren't the transsexuals, still transsexuals before they were diagnosed? And if they were always transsexuals, why would dressing in women's clothing just prior to GRS, be any different than dressing any time before GRS?
I am trying to make this make sense somehow, but it just doesn't.
Love always,
Elizabeth
Quote from: Elizabeth on September 01, 2007, 11:54:11 PM
Quote from: Keira on September 01, 2007, 10:25:55 PM
Since I disagree with even you assessment of people on this site, I think its pointless to argue about the rest.
As for crossdressing AFTER HRT!!!!! HUH!!!!
I don't know what your saying... After HRT your transitioning so how does that invalid what I'm saying...
Unless they're androgyne's or some kind of gender variant and thus what I'm saying doesn't apply to them anyway.
I'm talking of people with SEVERE GID here... Cross dressing for such is no relief unless its part of the process of transitioning.
Maybe I just don't understand? Are you saying that it's only crossdressing if one is not on HRT? Or are you saying there is no urge to dress like a woman until HRT?. Or are you saying that everyone on HRT is transsexual and therefore not crossdressers and therefore can not crossdress by wearing target gender clothing, even though the clothes are of the opposite sex of the body?
Because I have trouble with those kinds of arguments. Are we down to saying that the suffering of the transsexual is more than the suffering of the closeted crossdresser, so therefore the transsexuals deserve validation, but the crossdressers don't? Because their reason for crossdressing is not as good as our reason for crossdressing? To me this is real simple. If someone were born with a male body and they are wearing the clothing of a female, regardless of what their motivation is, they are crossdressed. Once transition is complete, one is no longer crossdressed because their body becomes female.
Trust me, you get arrested and have a penis, you will not be sent to a woman's prison and you will not be allowed to wear women's clothing and you will not be permitted to take hormones. The law makes no distinction with regard to the date at which someone is officially diagnosed as GID. It appears to me that drawing a line in the sand at the day someone is officially diagnosed with GID, doesn't really make any sense to me.
If crossdressing did not solve the problem before the diagnosis, it certainly won't solve it after the diagnosis. So I don't see dressing in women's clothing as being less crossdressing just because someone has transitioned their life. To me, anyone that still has a penis and wears women's clothing, is a crossdresser, except possibly those who are intersexed. But even if this were true somehow, weren't the transsexuals, still transsexuals before they were diagnosed? And if they were always transsexuals, why would dressing in women's clothing just prior to GRS, be any different than dressing any time before GRS?
I am trying to make this make sense somehow, but it just doesn't.
Love always,
Elizabeth
Society may see a pre-op as crossdressing, but she is a woman, therefore she would only be crossdressing if wearing a suit and tie.
Quote from: Nero on September 02, 2007, 12:03:59 AM
Society may see a pre-op as crossdressing, but she is a woman, therefore she would only be crossdressing if wearing a suit and tie.
This is actually true, if you are wearing the attire of your "true gender", it isn't
cross-dressing at all, but I can certainly understand why some people can make that mistake. ::)
tink :icon_chick:
If your transitioning, taking hormones, having surgery, changing your ID, etc, your not crossdressing, unless your saying that all non-op TS are crossdressing.
Most TS only start dressing outside in more feminine way when HRT has really kicked in, which also makes quite a difference.
Also, if your dressed in the same way 24/7, when are you in fact cross-dressing?
Since for a TS this is life, and not a temporary thing, it has more consequence and meaning, which can bring relief.
I don't think you really understand where me and many with severe debilitating GID are coming from.
Quote from: Keira on September 02, 2007, 12:14:07 AM
If your transitioning, taking hormones, having surgery, changing your ID, etc, your not crossdressing, unless your saying that all non-op TS are crossdressing.
Most TS only start dressing outside in more feminine way when HRT has really kicked in, which also makes quite a difference.
Also, if your dressed in the same way 24/7, when are you in fact cross-dressing?
Since for a TS this is life, and not a temporary thing, it has more consequence and meaning, which can bring relief.
I don't think you really understand where me and many with severe debilitating GID are coming from.
Aha good points Keira. Especially the higlighted ones!
tink :icon_chick:
Quote from: Keira on September 02, 2007, 12:14:07 AM
If your transitioning, taking hormones, having surgery, changing your ID, etc, your not crossdressing, unless your saying that all non-op TS are crossdressing.
Most TS only start dressing outside in more feminine way when HRT has really kicked in, which also makes quite a difference.
Also, if your dressed in the same way 24/7, when are you in fact cross-dressing?
Since for a TS this is life, and not a temporary thing, it has more consequence and meaning, which can bring relief.
I don't think you really understand where me and many with severe debilitating GID are coming from.
I totally respect your opinion, I simply disagree with it. I also believe that crossdressers are demonized in the TG community. Those are my opinions. But opinions are just that, they are just opinions. I have never read or seen any published studies to support this theory that transsexuals don't crossdress. Or that somehow crossdressing is different if one is on HRT or not. And those who are past transition consider that the breaking point, and others coming out of the closet. It seems we all draw the line right exactly where we happen to be on the spectrum. We are valid, but no one else is. Sorry, I just can't buy into this. Outside of published, peer reviewed studies that confirm this theory that transsexuals don't crossdress, I am unlikey to believe anecdotal evidence. My experience tells me that it simply is not true.
Love always,
Elizabeth
Good morning Elizabeth,
I'm trying to understand what you're getting at. Are you saying that transsexuals and crossdressers are the same up until the transsexual has SRS?
I would like to know what the objective of this thread is: Is it to say that cross-dressers are the same as transsexuals? is it to say that cross-dressers are oppressed by the TS community? or is it to determine the difference between cross-dressers and transsexuals?
My answers to my own questions:
My answer to question number one: NO
My answer to question number two: I already answered. They are misunderstood not demonized. Problems arise when people try to imply that cross-dressers or ->-bleeped-<-s are the same as transsexuals (pre, non, or post op)
My answer to question number three: Yes, there is a huge difference. IMO, and based on my experience with other TS's the difference is abysmal.
tink :icon_chick:
Quote from: Nero on September 02, 2007, 12:27:48 AM
Good morning Elizabeth,
I'm trying to understand what you're getting at. Are you saying that transsexuals and crossdressers are the same up until the transsexual has SRS?
No, that is not what I am saying. I am saying that transsexuals crossdress right up to the time they have GRS and change their sex. When they legally become that sex. My feeling is that transsexuals were transsexuals all their lives. So if they were transsexuals all their life, it would be appropriate for them to be crossdressed all their life, not just after HRT. Because of this, I don't beleive that not crossdressing is symptomatic of transsexuality.
This arbitrary date makes no sense to me. One is only a legitimate transsexual if they never crossdressed before HRT? That is just silly to me. I know many transsexuals who crossdressed for many years before transition and GRS. Some of them members of this very forum. For that reason I don't buy into it. To me, it's more elitist dogma that can not be supported. It's legend and folklore. It's always what someone "heard" somewhere, but can't identify a legitimate source of the information, but they know it's true.
Like I said, I could easily be swayed with published peer reviewed studies showing this to be true, but I doubt I will see any thing like that.
Love always,
Elizabeth
Quote from: Elizabeth on September 02, 2007, 01:08:49 AM
Quote from: Nero on September 02, 2007, 12:27:48 AM
Good morning Elizabeth,
I'm trying to understand what you're getting at. Are you saying that transsexuals and crossdressers are the same up until the transsexual has SRS?
No, that is not what I am saying. I am saying that transsexuals crossdress right up to the time they have GRS and change their sex. When they legally become that sex. My feeling is that transsexuals were transsexuals all their lives. So if they were transsexuals all their life, it would be appropriate for them to be crossdressed all their life, not just after HRT. Because of this, I don't beleive that not crossdressing is symptomatic of transsexuality.
This arbitrary date makes no sense to me. One is only a legitimate transsexual if they never crossdressed before HRT? That is just silly to me. I know many transsexuals who crossdressed for many years before transition and GRS. Some of them members of this very forum. For that reason I don't buy into it. To me, it's more elitist dogma that can not be supported. It's legend and folklore. It's always what someone "heard" somewhere, but can't identify a legitimate source of the information, but they know it's true.
Like I said, I could easily be swayed with published peer reviewed studies showing this to be true, but I doubt I will see any thing like that.
Love always,
Elizabeth
Gotcha. While I don't like hearing it referred to as 'crossdressing', I agree dressing as a woman before transition has nothing to do with being transsexual or not. Though I do imagine some didn't because it would be analogous to pouring salt in an open wound.
Quote from: Nero on September 01, 2007, 07:56:15 PM
Quote from: Keira on September 01, 2007, 07:37:10 PM
Elisabeth, I believe I've been in contact in therapeutic circles with much more TS than you and that's what they said. Unless your calling these 40-50 people liars, I stand by what I said. Reality from so many people's mouth sort of trumps what some guy said in the 60's (very different times).
As I said, a TS may crossdress, but its usually not frequent unless they soon transition (its a step to transition) because its of no use to relieve GID.
There are doubtless exceptions, but if something is of no use, of even painfull, you won't do it; seems logical. For cross dressers, there is some relief of whatever GID by dressing, for most TS the relief from GID is only temporary; after a certain amount of time, usually counted in weeks, only anxiety and depression remains.
yeah. For someone with severe dysphoria, the stark contrast of looking male while wearing a dress would most likely be unbearable. Only serving to emphasize the problem.
Well but before puberty you don't really look that gendered. Or I didn't.
I never cross dressed much before transition and never just to get aroused, but to say it was never arousing is not entirely true either. Not that dressing gave me an erection, but it has made me feel "pretty" and in a way sensual. But to count all the times I was fully crossdressed before transition, that would be twice. About 5-6 more times just in a dress, but no makeup or anything like that. I didn't even buy a wig or breastforms until I was already dressing in women's clothes full time for over a year. It was kinda like, what's the point?
So I get all that. But just because that was my experience, does not mean it's true for everyone. I know a transsexual woman who had surgery last week and she crossdressed for years before being on HRT and in fact called herself a crossdresser and was quite sure she was not transsexual, right up until she admitted she was. Also there are members of this forum that not only crossdressed, but had sex frequently with her male parts and enjoyed it, another supposed taboo in the "true transsexual" world. In fact, I know more than one person in this forum like that.
So since it don't happen to everyone, it can't be a theory that is correct because it does not apply to all transsexuals.
Love always,
Elizabeth
Quote from: Tink on September 02, 2007, 12:35:04 AM
I would like to know what the objective of this thread is: Is it to say that cross-dressers are the same as transsexuals? is it to say that cross-dressers are oppressed by the TS community? or is it to determine the difference between cross-dressers and transsexuals?
My answers to my own questions:
My answer to question number one: NO
My answer to question number two: I already answered. They are misunderstood not demonized. Problems arise when people try to imply that cross-dressers or ->-bleeped-<-s are the same as transsexuals (pre, non, or post op)
My answer to question number three: Yes, there is a huge difference. IMO, and based on my experience with other TS's the difference is abysmal.
tink :icon_chick:
Still I ask, what is the objective of this thread?
tink :icon_chick:
There's so little decent study of anything related to TS that its hard to say anything but what we know.
Also, the problem with studies about TS is that many go through a private route and DIY and in fact those may have a very different take than those that go through gender clinics
The information I relayed, elizabeth about non crossdressing prior to transition was in clinical settings, therapy groups lead by two PHD gender therapists linked to hospital gender clinics who also do private sessions with the same persons, including me. These groups last years and are mandatory, some people drop out after SRS or for some other reason while other come back in, so I know people face to face the story of those people quite well, much beyond the anecdotal or anything anyone who reveal in any other settings.
Also, the problem with studies about TS is that many go through a private route and DIY and in fact those may have a very different take than those that go through gender clinics.
Not to mention all the others with various levels of GID that will never really be touched by anybody.
Quote from: Keira on September 02, 2007, 02:09:22 AM
The problem with studies about TS is that many go through a private route and DIY and in fact those may have a very different take than those that go through gender clinics.
Not to mention all the others with various levels of GID that will never really be touched by anybody.
This is indeed what makes finding a one-size-fits-all description so very difficult. Many of the people I talk to IRL have no intention of going the traditional route. I know all of the anecdotes are true for various settings, but hardly hold water universally. I know I've said it before, but for standards to work, they first need to be descriptive rather than prescriptive. Otherwise individuals feel forced into roles to fit the standards. In that case the standards, while of great benefit to many, become hurtful to others.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Quote from: Keira on September 02, 2007, 02:09:22 AM
Also, the problem with studies about TS is that many go through a private route and DIY and in fact those may have a very different take than those that go through gender clinics
There is also the problem that many people in "official" care tend to give the expected answers rather than the truth.
Quote from: taru on September 03, 2007, 01:01:38 AM
Quote from: Keira on September 02, 2007, 02:09:22 AM
Also, the problem with studies about TS is that many go through a private route and DIY and in fact those may have a very different take than those that go through gender clinics
There is also the problem that many people in "official" care tend to give the expected answers rather than the truth.
They've got to be insane then. If you are not gender dysphoric the worst thing you can do is lie to "outsmart" the system. Wouldn't you be the affected person if you did this? What would a person gain by "outsmarting" the system? I don't buy it, unless "this person" is a nut case.
Quote from: Elizabeth on September 02, 2007, 01:08:49 AM
No, that is not what I am saying. I am saying that transsexuals crossdress right up to the time they have GRS and change their sex. When they legally become that sex. My feeling is that transsexuals were transsexuals all their lives. So if they were transsexuals all their life, it
would be appropriate for them to be crossdressed all their life, not just after HRT. Because of this, I don't beleive that not crossdressing is symptomatic of transsexuality.
I'm with Elizabeth on this one. I have been diagnosed as transsexual and yes I do crossdress. I'm sure we all have different ways of dealing with gender dysphoria and it is impossible to classify individual people into nice little standard headings which would suit the 'experts'.
This thread has actually made me feel degraded and "not transsexual enough", because although I have not crossdressed for years, as I said in my previous post I recently bought some everyday clothes and began wearing them as often as I could. I felt it was all part of the process of coming out and making a feeble start on the road to transition, even though I still have the fear of being found out by friends or neighbours who know nothing of my gender dysphoria. I now love wearing my clothes and seeing my reflection, because even though I don't wear skirts much I no longer see a man looking back, but a feminine woman and that makes me feel good and natural. Not like when I was in my late twenties, when I destroyed my few items of womens clothing because then - with my then short hair, hairy body and no makeup - I only saw myself as a man dressed as a woman and I was even more disgusted with myself. No so now, because I've found that if I go out dressed, once I'm away from my home patch I'm safe, the people I meet hardly give me a second glance, so either I am passing or they just don't give a damn. And I feel good because I can be ME. The bad and most depressing part is when I have to change back into mens attire just to be acceptable to my wife, friends, family, etc. But I treasure every minute that I can be 100 per cent Louise, because she is me.
I'll have to let the 'experts' decide whether or not I'm transsexual, transgendered, ->-bleeped-<- or transwhatever, quite frankly my dear I couldn't give a damn.
Quote from: Fer on September 03, 2007, 06:55:18 AM
Quote from: taru on September 03, 2007, 01:01:38 AM
Quote from: Keira on September 02, 2007, 02:09:22 AM
Also, the problem with studies about TS is that many go through a private route and DIY and in fact those may have a very different take than those that go through gender clinics
There is also the problem that many people in "official" care tend to give the expected answers rather than the truth.
They've got to be insane then. If you are not gender dysphoric the worst thing you can do is lie to "outsmart" the system. Wouldn't you be the affected person if you did this? What would a person gain by "outsmarting" the system? I don't buy it, unless "this person" is a nut case.
What if one thinks the system is FUBAR? I believe that transsexuality is self diagnosed. I don't believe anyone can tell anyone they are transsexual. I believe transsexuals have to say they are transsexual. The reason people lie to therapists is so they won't be denied transition, which they believe is necessary. In the end, transition is something we decide. I could think of nothing more dangerous than to have GRS on someone's advice. This whole notion that "all" transsexuals do this or that or behave this way or that way is all nonsense. Just like all women are different so are all transsexuals. This one size fits all approach can not be correct, simply because it's not correct anywhere else.
Love always,
Elizabeth
Quote from: Fer on September 03, 2007, 06:55:18 AM
They've got to be insane then. If you are not gender dysphoric the worst thing you can do is lie to "outsmart" the system. Wouldn't you be the affected person if you did this? What would a person gain by "outsmarting" the system? I don't buy it, unless "this person" is a nut case.
But if one *is* gender dysphoric it makes sense to get treatment. For those of us in countries with socialized medicine changing therapist to a more understanding one is typically not possible. Thus if one does not fit into what the therapist believes, one can 1) lie and get treatment, 2) say the truth and get no treatment (or black market), 3) move to an another country.
It would be better if there was a therapist that would not require occasional lying, but in the end getting safe treatment is a high priority for many.
Quote from: Tink on September 02, 2007, 01:58:01 AM
Quote from: Tink on September 02, 2007, 12:35:04 AM
I would like to know what the objective of this thread is: Is it to say that cross-dressers are the same as transsexuals? is it to say that cross-dressers are oppressed by the TS community? or is it to determine the difference between cross-dressers and transsexuals?
My answers to my own questions:
My answer to question number one: NO
My answer to question number two: I already answered. They are misunderstood not demonized. Problems arise when people try to imply that cross-dressers or ->-bleeped-<-s are the same as transsexuals (pre, non, or post op)
My answer to question number three: Yes, there is a huge difference. IMO, and based on my experience with other TS's the difference is abysmal.
tink :icon_chick:
Still I ask, what is the objective of this thread?
tink :icon_chick:
The objective is to see how many times we can beat ourselves over the head with a topic that nobody will ever agree on.
I fail to see that anything will ever be accomplished. I've yet to see one person state that their point of view has been changed by one of these discussions.
Quote from: Rebis on September 04, 2007, 08:26:36 AM
The objective is to see how many times we can beat ourselves over the head with a topic that nobody will ever agree on.
I fail to see that anything will ever be accomplished. I've yet to see one person state that their point of view has been changed by one of these discussions.
Well, I think the goal was to discuss whether CDrs get unfairly picked on by the TS community... not to debate the differences, and who's "real" and who's not and all that fun stuff.
But I think the way threads tend to devolve into that anyway... with a certain segment of the community absolutely freaking out should they ever be lumped in the same category as CDrs... sorta answers the question.
~Kate~
Quote from: Kate on September 04, 2007, 09:05:32 AM
Quote from: Rebis on September 04, 2007, 08:26:36 AM
The objective is to see how many times we can beat ourselves over the head with a topic that nobody will ever agree on.
I fail to see that anything will ever be accomplished. I've yet to see one person state that their point of view has been changed by one of these discussions.
Well, I think the goal was to discuss whether CDrs get unfairly picked on by the TS community... not to debate the differences, and who's "real" and who's not and all that fun stuff.
But I think the way threads tend to devolve into that anyway... with a certain segment of the community absolutely freaking out should they ever be lumped in the same category as CDrs... sorta answers the question.
~Kate~
Exactly, Sweetie.
It'd be nice if it didn't devolve. The initial question is a good one but got crushed by the posturing.
Quote from: Elizabeth on September 01, 2007, 11:54:11 PMIf someone were born with a male body and they are wearing the clothing of a female, regardless of what their motivation is, they are crossdressed. Once transition is complete, one is no longer crossdressed because their body becomes female.
Quote from: Elizabeth on September 05, 2007, 05:38:11 AMYou are a woman. To me you are as much woman as any woman I have ever met. A penis will not make you a man and it does not make you an impostor.
At first these 2 statements look like contradicting viewpoints, until you realize that you define male and man differently as well as woman and female. I disagree with you saying a person suddenly has a female body once they have GRS--that only gives them female genitalia.
For instance with myself, my body is completely female with the exception of my genitalia. To the world who cannot see what I have between my legs, I am female. To be wearing women's clothes does not come across to society as crossdressing and in fact wearing very male clothing (such as a suit) would probably get me stared at more than anything. So to say GRS is the line that needs to be crossed for it to not consider being "crossdressing", is a fallacy that somebody not educated with gender issues would likely adopt.
Like I've said before, I personally have no problems with crossdressers doing what they do for whatever reasons, I just am not one. A label is just a way of associating a set of general characteristics with an individual. Since I don't have the same characteristics as a typical crossdresser (including the same motivations, whatever they may be), to label *me* as such is tantamount to misappropriation of the facts.
Melissa,
My point in the first one was to point out that all transsexuals crossdress. The second one was to say that yes, transsexuals are their target sex. In my mind there is no contradiction.
Love always,
Elizabeth
Quote from: Elizabeth on September 05, 2007, 04:40:16 PM
My point in the first one was to point out that all transsexuals crossdress. The second one was to say that yes, transsexuals are their target sex. In my mind there is no contradiction.
But doesn't crossdressing mean that one dresses in the clothing of the opposite sex? Personally, I think it's just semantics.
I think your overall point was actually that whether one crossdresses (in the sense that they are not yet
intending to transition) or not has no bearing on whether somebody is actually transsexual, which I completely agree with. I did some very minimal dressing in private, but as soon as I attempted it in public, that amplified the dysphoria and after a bit of answer finding, transition soon followed within the next couple of months (although appointments were almost immediately scheduled). I knew within a week of wearing female clothes in public that I was going to transition in some capacity.
Now as far as you go, I believe your situation is that you are living fulltime as a woman, but at this point cannot start HRT or have SRS due to financial reasons which are due to a medical condition. However, I am under the impression that if given the means and opportunity, you would physically transition without hesitation and
the intention is what makes all the difference in the world.
Quote from: Melissa on September 05, 2007, 05:07:33 PM
Quote from: Elizabeth on September 05, 2007, 04:40:16 PM
My point in the first one was to point out that all transsexuals crossdress. The second one was to say that yes, transsexuals are their target sex. In my mind there is no contradiction.
But doesn't crossdressing mean that one dresses in the clothing of the opposite sex? Personally, I think it's just semantics.
I think your overall point was actually that whether one crossdresses (in the sense that they are not yet intending to transition) or not has no bearing on whether somebody is actually transsexual, which I completely agree with. I did some very minimal dressing in private, but as soon as I attempted it in public, that amplified the dysphoria and after a bit of answer finding, transition soon followed within the next couple of months (although appointments were almost immediately scheduled). I knew within a week of wearing female clothes in public that I was going to transition in some capacity.
Now as far as you go, I believe your situation is that you are living fulltime as a woman, but at this point cannot start HRT or have SRS due to financial reasons which are due to a medical condition. However, I am under the impression that if given the means and opportunity, you would physically transition without hesitation and the intention is what makes all the difference in the world.
I think you got it.
Love always,
Elizabeth
[She reads]
[She looks up some of the tricky words]
[She gets confused]
[She resumes shopping online, pausing long enough to be glad that most transexuals and crossdressers remember that what we have in common is vastly more important than the distinctions among ourselves. That's not to say the distinctions don't matter - they certainly do - but a sense of perspective also helps. As does a sense of humor.]
Are TG's crossdressed in the demon community?
Let's say demons are those jerkfaces who don't like TGs. They think we're all crossdressers out to trick good straight men. (I doubt they realize FTMs exist.)
Therefore, yes, TGs are crossdressed in the demon community.
:D