I mean seriously, what could be worse than to be saddled with a female body? To be treated as female, to wear bras and tampons. I mean there is no lower degradation.
My dad is a great man, a real man's man but I can see him with his rifle to his temple if he'd been saddled with this.
I mean really, there is no possible worse position for a man to be in. If you cut all the PC, feminist crap, you know what I'm talking about.
And we cope however we can, we go out and prove ourselves financially, sexually, etc. We live the lives of the outlaw, of the Don Juan. Because we've got to be Superman. What else can we do?
Anybody feel me?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SqeXP4EGAM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SqeXP4EGAM)
I feel you brother. >:(
I hear you bro. It sometimes feels like everything is out to futher damage my already insulted manhood, especially when I got my period. Feels like I have to do a lot to restore it to what it should be. And I'll do any little thing to bring it up.
since we're not going to be politically correct, i don't see how you can say "manhood" as if it were something so noble and sacred. nor "womanhood", for that matter.
i mean, we're talking about "people" here right? running around in our small unimportant lives, and being made to "feel" yet even smaller by so-called "important" people.
oh wait, maybe i'm not even on topic. nevermind.
-ell
From the perspective of someone that can not and does not want to live up to male expectations yet is expected too, I feel you. masculinity seems to me as something that compels you to meet a certain standard just to measure up. Percieved failings in some areas seems to force you to overcompensate in others to try to get in through special dispensation.
Seems to me it is a prison of mass insecurity. Everyone is always commenting that I must be very secure in my masculinity to wear what I wear. The reality is I am just very secure in my lack of masculinity.
Quote from: Lisbeff's Elf on September 01, 2008, 08:22:20 PM
since we're not going to be politically correct, i don't see how you can say "manhood" as if it were something so noble and sacred. nor "womanhood", for that matter.
i mean, we're talking about "people" here right? running around in our small unimportant lives, and being made to "feel" yet even smaller by so-called "important" people.
oh wait, maybe i'm not even on topic. nevermind.
-ell
Count on my Ellie to bust my balls. :laugh:
Quote from: Lisbeff's Elf on September 01, 2008, 08:22:20 PM
since we're not going to be politically correct, i don't see how you can say "manhood" as if it were something so noble and sacred. nor "womanhood", for that matter.
What, in fact, is /their/ concept of 'manhood' is what I am wondering. To all you FtM's, what makes a man? What makes YOU a man? I'm not trying to challenge any of you, I just want to fulfill a curiosity.
I do have to agree with Nero, if you are an FtM, other men and women are going to put you under the microscope all-the-time. The opposite is true for MtFs but I find that there is a gradually increasing positive attitude and acceptance for MtFs, moreso than FtMs.
Men, put men under the gun, under the microscope all the time. You prove yourself every day. What you did yesterday was just history. Question is? Do you have my back today?
Man, I don't know.
You're right, though. Do I think being a woman is degradation? No. I think that's a pretty misogynistic view. But it is hard to be manly and be a man when you're so full of woman. You know it, I know it.
No bio man do I know would be able to handle this. Well, my dad, maybe. He's a very smart guy. High genius IQ and all that. He'd either go crazy or find a way. I mean, I guess we don't give the bio guys enough credit; we have a beef with them. They got something we don't, and then they go and bitch about it. "I wish my penis was bigger," says he. He's got a 4 incher and a fair girth. I want to slap the dick right off of him. "You think 4 inches isn't enough? Try having none, and a hole instead. Then tell me it's too small."
And you're right. No man would like this. We know that ourselves. Men born as women. It's like a horrible nightmare. It'd make a good thriller movie flick. But it's just fracked up that it happens to real people. Fracked up beyond belief.
I don't feel like I gotta be a Superman. But boy, am I hard on this poor female body. It isn't made to do the things I try to make it do. I feel sorry for it, as if my body weren't a part of myself. Before I decided to transition, I told my body, "I can't do this to you. You're wrong, but you've never
wronged me. What, body, did you do to deserve this treatment from me?" That's one reason I haven't been a cutter. I just can't punish my body for being the way it is. But I decided mutually, with my body, of course, that it would be best if I made these changes, for the both of us. Then hopefully we can be whole again, like normal, civilized people.
Posted on: September 01, 2008, 07:58:57 PM
Quote from: Phate on September 01, 2008, 08:43:09 PMWhat, in fact, is /their/ concept of 'manhood' is what I am wondering. To all you FtM's, what makes a man? What makes YOU a man? I'm not trying to challenge any of you, I just want to fulfill a curiosity.
I do have to agree with Nero, if you are an FtM, other men and women are going to put you under the microscope all-the-time. The opposite is true for MtFs but I find that there is a gradually increasing positive attitude and acceptance for MtFs, moreso than FtMs.
Both manhood and womanhood are sacred to me. It's one reason I hesitated transition. "Women are a symbol of baring life... they're loving and nurturing people... and I want to go over there and be a dog of a man?" I felt like I was going from tranquil beauty to unforgivable slime. "Men are wolves, men are wolves."
A man to me... well, it's a pretty fundamental definition. Man is a male-identified person. Male is the biological, the body. I will never be 100% male. I can get sort of close, but... I'll still always have parts of me that are female. Post transition, I'll be intersexed in look and feel (when it comes to the genitals, at least). I'm not too happy about that, but... well, it's better than nothing.
I hate how a lot of FtMs think a man is "manly." Buff, strong, mean, sweaty, dirty, hairy, nipples so hot they burn a hole in your shirt, a dick so large you can trip a whole Congo line with it. All of this stuff doesn't make a man. Minus the dick and you've got a "tough person." A woman can be all of those things, too. That is not enough to be a man. If she is female-identified, she is a buff, strong, mean, sweaty, dirty, hairy woman with nipples so hot they burn a hole in her shirt.
I hate the stereotypes. That's why the guys I want to be like/look like are not wrestlers, big buff men or anything like that.
Michael Dillon, the first transmale, is quite satisfactory. He ain't no coal miner.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi5.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy168%2Fpenguin_furuba%2Froac191.jpg&hash=1d55ed49e2e7adc91c6634ceb0d045f817e05150)
But I'd also really love a body like Jamie Bamber's. You can tell he works pretty hard in the gym.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi5.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy168%2Fpenguin_furuba%2FPeople%2Fstarbuck-apollo.jpg&hash=54ec00a6ad2cb0cf66af2a4d0090f5533f32db57)
But most of all, I want to be an average guy. Somewhat tall, definitely not short. I'd like to be average sized, average build, average look, average everything. If I want muscle, I'll work for some. But I don't want to be some ripped gym machine. It's not gonna happen. And as far as having a dick goes, I'd give to have a normal dick. Even a small one. But something. I'm not going to be picky about "it has to be 6 inches." Frack that! It's a stupid thing to whine about, in my opinion.
Posted on: September 01, 2008, 08:06:42 PM
Quote from: Nicky on September 01, 2008, 08:28:35 PMMasculinity seems to me as something that compels you to meet a certain standard just to measure up. Percieved failings in some areas seems to force you to overcompensate in others to try to get in through special dispensation.
That's totally how I feel. Like I have to puff out my chest to make up for being short. If I was female, a guy would find it sexy that I'm 5'3".
Quote from: Elwood on September 01, 2008, 10:07:43 PM
I hate how a lot of FtMs think a man is "manly." Buff, strong, mean, sweaty, dirty, hairy, nipples so hot they burn a hole in your shirt, a dick so large you can trip a whole Congo line with it. All of this stuff doesn't make a man. Minus the dick and you've got a "tough person." A woman can be all of those things, too. That is not enough to be a man. If she is female-identified, she is a buff, strong, mean, sweaty, dirty, hairy woman with nipples so hot they burn a hole in her shirt.
I hate the stereotypes. That's why the guys I want to be like/look like are not wrestlers, big buff men or anything like that.
I hate the stereotypes too, along with the ones that exist for women, which makes it harder for MtF's and bio-women to be what they really are without feeling pressured to live up to standards that are arbitrary at best.
"Nipples so hot they burn a hole in their shirt" Wow, where did you get that line!? Never heard it, that's pretty awesome, lol.
While I can't help but harbor a strong dislike for the stereotypes you've mentioned, at the same time, they have a personal allure for me that I don't understand, I just know I'm immensely attracted to the big, buff muscles (but not crazy steroids, meh) the hairiness, and other stereotypical traits of masculinity.
I'm 100% with you on the fact that those 'masculine' traits you mentioned don't make a man, neither does a penis; thanks for offering your insight.
Posted on: September 02, 2008, 02:21:23 AM
Quote from: Elwood on September 01, 2008, 10:07:43 PM
That's totally how I feel. Like I have to puff out my chest to make up for being short. If I was female, a guy would find it sexy that I'm 5'3".
I feel you on the shortness, I'm about that same height too, and if you're like me, very independent and loathe to ask for help unless you absolutely need it, you end up asking for it a lot more than you want because of being 'vertically challenged' lol. To most, small=cute, which is a huge thorn in your side if that's not the kind of aura you want to project. I got no problem with shorter men though, I've known some pretty hot ones that were about my height or just a little bit taller but no where near six feet.
I hear you brother!
I feel like I've become a lot more secure with my malehood now that I've been transitioned and on T for a while. I used to avoid all girly stuff because I had to prove myself as a man. Now that I'm done with all the proving, I can sit back and relax more. I find myself doing stereotypically "girly" stuff that I used to avoid. So what if someone challenges my manhood? I'll laugh at them! Or flirt with them or kick their ass. (Sorry, I just really feel manly today.)
You can transition. (and yes, Nero, I realize this is something you are medically unable to do at the present time, it was a general comment.)
There is nothing I find to be less fun to be around than a bunch of posturing. The road to testosterone is not that difficult for the vast majority of those who properly seek it. If you want on, get on and make your body congruent with your mind.
and FWIW- the last time my manhood was challenged was by my girlfriend. She's nearly my same size and weight. We arm wrestled. But that's probably not what you meant.
I mean more in terms of society in general and the whole growing up as a girl thing than anybody directly challenging us.
Growing up female was no more challenging to me than was my immigrant status or bum leg. It sucks, yeah, but you do what you can to live your life despite it.
You're missing the point. :P
I find being a woman degrading...
Quote from: Nero on September 02, 2008, 03:27:56 AM
You're missing the point. :P
I really don't think I am. Growing up female sucked, yeah. Puberty was hell. Having everyone think I was a girl and project feminine things on me was hard. But it was also hard to be told to go back 'where i came from' and to get out of someone else's country. It was hard to walk with a cane when I wanted to run and jump and swim and be a teenager. It was harder to walk with the social stigma of being a cripple.
Quote from: Mister on September 02, 2008, 01:54:41 PM
Quote from: Nero on September 02, 2008, 03:27:56 AM
You're missing the point. :P
I really don't think I am. Growing up female sucked, yeah. Puberty was hell. Having everyone think I was a girl and project feminine things on me was hard. But it was also hard to be told to go back 'where i came from' and to get out of someone else's country. It was hard to walk with a cane when I wanted to run and jump and swim and be a teenager. It was harder to walk with the social stigma of being a cripple.
But none of that other stuff had anything to do with your manhood.
Posted on: September 02, 2008, 04:50:40 PM
I'll try to clarify what I mean.
I'm not talking about whether or not we can DO something about it - give our tits the axe, take T, have phallo, etc.
I'm not talking about other challenges we may have had on top of this condition - immigration/disability/racism/poverty/broken home/ or any other issues we may have faced in our lives.
I'm not even talking about transphobia or 'cock length contests' with other men.
I mean that our manhood is inherently challenged from the day we are born.
If you've never took issue with that, more power to you.
Quote from: Phate on September 02, 2008, 01:24:31 AMQuote from: Elwood on September 01, 2008, 10:07:43 PMI hate how a lot of FtMs think a man is "manly." Buff, strong, mean, sweaty, dirty, hairy, nipples so hot they burn a hole in your shirt, a dick so large you can trip a whole Congo line with it. All of this stuff doesn't make a man. Minus the dick and you've got a "tough person." A woman can be all of those things, too. That is not enough to be a man. If she is female-identified, she is a buff, strong, mean, sweaty, dirty, hairy woman with nipples so hot they burn a hole in her shirt.
I hate the stereotypes. That's why the guys I want to be like/look like are not wrestlers, big buff men or anything like that.
I hate the stereotypes too, along with the ones that exist for women, which makes it harder for MtF's and bio-women to be what they really are without feeling pressured to live up to standards that are arbitrary at best.
"Nipples so hot they burn a hole in their shirt" Wow, where did you get that line!? Never heard it, that's pretty awesome, lol.
While I can't help but harbor a strong dislike for the stereotypes you've mentioned, at the same time, they have a personal allure for me that I don't understand, I just know I'm immensely attracted to the big, buff muscles (but not crazy steroids, meh) the hairiness, and other stereotypical traits of masculinity.
I'm 100% with you on the fact that those 'masculine' traits you mentioned don't make a man, neither does a penis; thanks for offering your insight.
It sucks on both sides.
I made up that line.
I personally want to pass as a male. If I was hairless, it wouldn't kill me. I know gaining muscle is about effort an work... I am working out now and I think after T my working out will be more effective on my body. I don't want to be "buff," but I want some meat on my bones.
Quote from: Phate on September 02, 2008, 01:24:31 AM
Quote from: Elwood on September 01, 2008, 10:07:43 PMThat's totally how I feel. Like I have to puff out my chest to make up for being short. If I was female, a guy would find it sexy that I'm 5'3".
I feel you on the shortness, I'm about that same height too, and if you're like me, very independent and loathe to ask for help unless you absolutely need it, you end up asking for it a lot more than you want because of being 'vertically challenged' lol. To most, small=cute, which is a huge thorn in your side if that's not the kind of aura you want to project. I got no problem with shorter men though, I've known some pretty hot ones that were about my height or just a little bit taller but no where near six feet.
I think even 5'4" would be better than 5'3", because 5'4" is the cut off. The shortest guy I've met who has a "normal" life is 5'4". He doesn't get teased for being 5'4". But that one inch difference makes me not just a short guy, but a REALLY short guy.
To most, small = cute, like you said. That bugs the ->-bleeped-<- out of me. I want to be 'attractive' and 'sexy' and worthwhile and all that. Stuff that gets a person
excited, not a "warm and fuzzy feeling." I want to turn someone on.
Posted on: September 02, 2008, 03:32:09 PM
Quote from: Mister on September 02, 2008, 02:55:36 AMYou can transition. (and yes, Nero, I realize this is something you are medically unable to do at the present time, it was a general comment.)
There is nothing I find to be less fun to be around than a bunch of posturing. The road to testosterone is not that difficult for the vast majority of those who properly seek it. If you want on, get on and make your body congruent with your mind.
and FWIW- the last time my manhood was challenged was by my girlfriend. She's nearly my same size and weight. We arm wrestled. But that's probably not what you meant.
It hasn't been easy for me. It's like they're seeing how long it will take for me to start self injuring. I'm the only FtM I know personally that wasn't some sort of cutter or drug/alcohol/sex addicted.
Posted on: September 02, 2008, 03:34:18 PM
Quote from: Jack Daniels on September 02, 2008, 01:45:07 PMI find being a woman degrading...
I don't. Women are not lesser beings.
I just have a really hard time not having a penis. Sometimes I really just want to stand in front of a bus. That's how frustrated it makes me sometimes. I can deal with the rest of it; transition will fix it all. Except the part that most people THINK makes a man a man.
Quote from: Elwood on September 02, 2008, 05:35:32 PM
I just have a really hard time not having a penis. Sometimes I really just want to stand in front of a bus. That's how frustrated it makes me sometimes. I can deal with the rest of it; transition will fix it all. Except the part that most people THINK makes a man a man.
So does that mean if a guy had his cut off, he'd be less of a man? I suppose some guys may think that.
Quote from: Nero on September 02, 2008, 04:46:38 PM
Quote from: Mister on September 02, 2008, 01:54:41 PM
Quote from: Nero on September 02, 2008, 03:27:56 AM
You're missing the point. :P
I really don't think I am. Growing up female sucked, yeah. Puberty was hell. Having everyone think I was a girl and project feminine things on me was hard. But it was also hard to be told to go back 'where i came from' and to get out of someone else's country. It was hard to walk with a cane when I wanted to run and jump and swim and be a teenager. It was harder to walk with the social stigma of being a cripple.
But none of that other stuff had anything to do with your manhood.
Posted on: September 02, 2008, 04:50:40 PM
I'll try to clarify what I mean.
I'm not talking about whether or not we can DO something about it - give our tits the axe, take T, have phallo, etc.
I'm not talking about other challenges we may have had on top of this condition - immigration/disability/racism/poverty/broken home/ or any other issues we may have faced in our lives.
I'm not even talking about transphobia or 'cock length contests' with other men.
I mean that our manhood is inherently challenged from the day we are born.
If you've never took issue with that, more power to you.
What I'm saying is that my manhood was never more complicated than any of those things. My near disability has given me many more hours of strife, many more restless nights and much more emotional pain than my lack of being born anatomically correct ever did.
Quote from: Adam on September 02, 2008, 05:45:54 PMQuote from: Elwood on September 02, 2008, 05:35:32 PMI just have a really hard time not having a penis. Sometimes I really just want to stand in front of a bus. That's how frustrated it makes me sometimes. I can deal with the rest of it; transition will fix it all. Except the part that most people THINK makes a man a man.
So does that mean if a guy had his cut off, he'd be less of a man? I suppose some guys may think that.
I don't believe so. But he can't father a child or have sex with a woman...
Quote from: Elwood on September 02, 2008, 05:35:32 PM
]It hasn't been easy for me. It's like they're seeing how long it will take for me to start self injuring. I'm the only FtM I know personally that wasn't some sort of cutter or drug/alcohol/sex addicted.
I said easy for most. You are still quite young, Sir Elwood, and have a few other kinks to iron out. And if you really wanted on testosterone, there are ways that are much easier/faster than the avenues you are currently pursuing. Not a judgement, just a fact.
And now you know two. I have been drunk twice. I have never smoked pot nor done anything harder than the occasional smoke while drinking, which i do less than once per month. i've never cut and find sex to be one of the less important things to a relationship. there are healthy coping mechanisms out there and people who use them. please do not further stigmatize our community with sweeping generalizations.
Quote from: Mister on September 02, 2008, 10:43:41 PMQuote from: Elwood on September 02, 2008, 05:35:32 PM]It hasn't been easy for me. It's like they're seeing how long it will take for me to start self injuring. I'm the only FtM I know personally that wasn't some sort of cutter or drug/alcohol/sex addicted.
I said easy for most. You are still quite young, Sir Elwood, and have a few other kinks to iron out. And if you really wanted on testosterone, there are ways that are much easier/faster than the avenues you are currently pursuing. Not a judgement, just a fact.
And now you know two. I have been drunk twice. I have never smoked pot nor done anything harder than the occasional smoke while drinking, which i do less than once per month. i've never cut and find sex to be one of the less important things to a relationship. there are healthy coping mechanisms out there and people who use them. please do not further stigmatize our community with sweeping generalizations.
I do want it. But unlike some people here, I have a respect for the law and I take caution to foreign substances. I am not going to but unknown testosterone where I have no idea where it was made or extracted. I refuse to. In the 30's they'd give bio males testosterone from goats to try to prevent aging. What if that's what you guys are sticking in your bodies?
I don't trust internet sources, no matter what they say. I am not going to break the law over petty impatience. I am going to be the bigger man and practice patience rather than acting like a child and stealing from the cookie jar. So no, I don't want or need testosterone and less than the boys who have the nerve to black market their way into manhood.
I thought you said you did cut and that your doctors said it was okay or whatever as long as you managed it and all that. Or was that another guy who knows everything?
Guys who know everything all sound the same to me.
Oh gosh. i do not know everything nor have I ever claimed that I do. I'm not talking black market or online T either. Two appointments in the city can have you on testosterone on either the informed consent or harm reduction model.
My testosterone is- and always has been- prescribed to me by a doctor, picked up at a pharmacy, and injected in the proper manner. The only thing that may seem at all 'black market' is that I exchange my used needles and syringes for new ones at needle exchanges. Why? Because the pharmacy I use does not carry the size I prefer.
And no, I'm not the cutter.
Quote from: Nero on September 01, 2008, 07:57:07 PM
I mean seriously, what could be worse than to be saddled with a female body? To be treated as female, to wear bras and tampons. I mean there is no lower degradation.
I showed this thread to my wife. She doesn't feel that being in a female body is degrading. So, perhaps it's degrading only to FTMs, but not necessarily to females in general.
@ Mister:
Right, but not with my doctors pr medica department. If I do things here with Kaiser, whenever I need an appointment or check up, I only have to take the bus for $1.50 to see them instead of paying well over that in gas to drive to San Fransisco every time I need something. I have to stay within the medical department I am working with. I want to do things the right way with check ups to wathch my progress.
If I can get this in two visits, they're doing something wrong. They're neglecting my therapy, is what they're doing.
Sorry I confused you with someone else.
nah, it's not disregarding your therapy. it's the informed consent model, which basically means that you're an adult, you accept the risks and responsibilities and, pending bloodwork or any contraindications, you're off and running. i don't agree that this is the perfect system, but it's used. the harm reduction model is designed to keep people from using the black market hormones of which you speak, basically saying that if someone's going to take T, you might as well give them a script for the stuff that won't kill them.
i'm not saying that coming to the city is the *best* route to testosterone, but just that it is *another* way to get there.
and for the record, i did not get my prescriptions under either of these models. I got them under the Standards of Care, with a therapist and a doctor who are both well aware of the glaring flaws in the SOC.
Quote from: Shades O'Grey on September 02, 2008, 11:00:42 PM
Quote from: Nero on September 01, 2008, 07:57:07 PM
I mean seriously, what could be worse than to be saddled with a female body? To be treated as female, to wear bras and tampons. I mean there is no lower degradation.
I showed this thread to my wife. She doesn't feel that being in a female body is degrading. So, perhaps it's degrading only to FTMs, but not necessarily to females in general.
That was the point. :P
Quote from: Mister on September 02, 2008, 11:14:03 PMnah, it's not disregarding your therapy. it's the informed consent model, which basically means that you're an adult, you accept the risks and responsibilities and, pending bloodwork or any contraindications, you're off and running. i don't agree that this is the perfect system, but it's used. the harm reduction model is designed to keep people from using the black market hormones of which you speak, basically saying that if someone's going to take T, you might as well give them a script for the stuff that won't kill them.
i'm not saying that coming to the city is the *best* route to testosterone, but just that it is *another* way to get there.
and for the record, i did not get my prescriptions under either of these models. I got them under the Standards of Care, with a therapist and a doctor who are both well aware of the glaring flaws in the SOC.
Okay, so does that mean I skip bloodwork? Therapy? Because I don't want a "fastpass" that skips things.
Plus, this special shortcut isn't part of the deal with my dad. He trusts Kaiser. That's why he wants me to be with them...
You might think I don't "want" testosterone enough because I'm not willing to run with this, but that's not the case. I'm just a man who uses his brain. I don't want to take unnecessary risks. I have this all set up. I'm with a trusted therapist. Having his name on the T letter could make all the difference when I apply for a name change or surgery. That's how good of a reputation this guy has.
So much depends on the doctors and a lot of other things. I know people who got E/T on the first visit, and had surgery and even full SRS within a year of coming out. There are no rules, except the ones you write for yourself.
They do bloodwork. They offer therapy. Patients can stick with their current therapists if desired. It isn't a 'fast pass,' it's simply a different method.
I don't think you're a guy who doesn't want T or doesn't want it bad enough or whatever. I was showing you an option, plain and simple. You've said yourself that you think testosterone can lessen many of your current woes, so I was pointing out that if you're stuck with a therapist who's dragging his/her feet on the subject, you can legitimately circumvent them. I hope this Demara guy works out for you, I do. I hope you get on T when you're comfortable with it and that he (or whoever you're seeing at the time) is there to support your decision in a non-biased way.
I had no idea you have any sort of agreement with your father. It's pretty awesome he's supportive and you have my hopes he remains that way. It would be fantastic if your mom falls in step, too.
None of what I say to you is me trying to show you a better way, what i feel is the right way or whatever. it's me offering advice, tips, tricks or hints from my experience navigating the system, the world and my own mind/body through passing, therapy, hormones, coming out, surgery, relationships, friendships, etc etc. I'm a guy who uses his brain, too. I got this far in a perfectly safe, perfectly legal manner. And as I said, my physical transition was on the SOC track, not the harm reduction or informed consent programs. Personally, I don't 100% agree with them but I don't have to, but I do feel the need to convey their existence to those who have expressed desperation or a feeling for being stuck.
Your name change will not need a therapist's name on it. It is a personal request, there is not even room on the form in California for any sort of credentialing. Your gender change will require a letter from a surgeon, however.
Posted on: September 02, 2008, 09:45:09 PM
And kind of back to this whole challenged manhood thing...
Elwood, you seem to think that I challenge yours. i don't. you're just as much of a guy as I am, in my eyes. Please stop being combative.
Quote from: Andrew on September 02, 2008, 02:44:49 AM
I feel like I've become a lot more secure with my malehood now that I've been transitioned and on T for a while. I used to avoid all girly stuff because I had to prove myself as a man. Now that I'm done with all the proving, I can sit back and relax more. I find myself doing stereotypically "girly" stuff that I used to avoid. So what if someone challenges my manhood? I'll laugh at them! Or flirt with them or kick their ass. (Sorry, I just really feel manly today.)
ENVY. I am in that "cant do my nails or makeup" phase. and
trying not to let myself act like some macho a-hole with a chip on my shoulder (response to past abuses).
I really don't want to be some buff macho sports-loving type (no offense to you boys who identify as such). I want to look like what I am--a very femmy but unmistakable male.
I still find the whole thing degrading. I mean women were born to be sexually passive in every way of the word, mentally I think everyone is same( meaning anyone can reach same level of knowledge), but phyiscally...physically... i see it as worthless. ( not meaning to offend)
And passive, and weak, ...But I DO respect stong women
Quote from: Jack Daniels on September 03, 2008, 12:47:02 PM
women were born to be sexually passive in every way of the word
My experience with women, albeit limited, has been quite the opposite.
Quote from: Mister on September 02, 2008, 11:48:27 PMThey do bloodwork. They offer therapy. Patients can stick with their current therapists if desired. It isn't a 'fast pass,' it's simply a different method.
I don't think you're a guy who doesn't want T or doesn't want it bad enough or whatever. I was showing you an option, plain and simple. You've said yourself that you think testosterone can lessen many of your current woes, so I was pointing out that if you're stuck with a therapist who's dragging his/her feet on the subject, you can legitimately circumvent them. I hope this Demara guy works out for you, I do. I hope you get on T when you're comfortable with it and that he (or whoever you're seeing at the time) is there to support your decision in a non-biased way.
I had no idea you have any sort of agreement with your father. It's pretty awesome he's supportive and you have my hopes he remains that way. It would be fantastic if your mom falls in step, too.
None of what I say to you is me trying to show you a better way, what i feel is the right way or whatever. it's me offering advice, tips, tricks or hints from my experience navigating the system, the world and my own mind/body through passing, therapy, hormones, coming out, surgery, relationships, friendships, etc etc. I'm a guy who uses his brain, too. I got this far in a perfectly safe, perfectly legal manner. And as I said, my physical transition was on the SOC track, not the harm reduction or informed consent programs. Personally, I don't 100% agree with them but I don't have to, but I do feel the need to convey their existence to those who have expressed desperation or a feeling for being stuck.
Your name change will not need a therapist's name on it. It is a personal request, there is not even room on the form in California for any sort of credentialing. Your gender change will require a letter from a surgeon, however.
Posted on: September 02, 2008, 09:45:09 PM
And kind of back to this whole challenged manhood thing...
Elwood, you seem to think that I challenge yours. i don't. you're just as much of a guy as I am, in my eyes. Please stop being combative.
Mr. Demara shows signs of many promise... I will be seeing him in roughly 2 weeks. I have to hold on only a little bit longer before we'll have news of what he is really like. But I can't even give up on him the first visit. I'll give him a chance. But if the next appointment with him is in another month, then I will have to make changes. I can't live like this, seeing a provider only once a month.
The agreement with my father is simple and reasonable; he wants me to obtain testosterone by legal means. He wants me to go through a satisfactory amount of therapy before administering testosterone. His only requests have been that. He specifically said he wanted me to work with Kaiser, but he also said that if Kaiser proves to be too slow or unhelpful that we will find another safe/reliable source.
My name change will not need my therapist's name on it. I am already aware of that. However, I must go to court to have a full legal name change with the social security offices. I need to plead a short case, and if a Ph.D is backing me up, I think my chances of name change will be better and the process will run a lot more smoothly.
Quote from: Shades O'Grey on September 03, 2008, 01:20:18 PM
Quote from: Jack Daniels on September 03, 2008, 12:47:02 PM
women were born to be sexually passive in every way of the word
My experience with women, albeit limited, has been quite the opposite.
Well, no matter how you look at it, she ie still getting "screwed", and she may be aggressive about it, but then that s just being aggressively passive. Because thier bodies are just...made for that. But now the emotional/ mentally can be completely different and thats not what Im talking about. Mentally, she doesnt/isnt passive, but phyically, with her three holes, she is.
Quote from: Jack Daniels on September 03, 2008, 02:10:53 PM
Quote from: Shades O'Grey on September 03, 2008, 01:20:18 PM
Quote from: Jack Daniels on September 03, 2008, 12:47:02 PM
women were born to be sexually passive in every way of the word
My experience with women, albeit limited, has been quite the opposite.
Well, no matter how you look at it, she ie still getting "screwed", and she may be aggressive about it, but then that s just being aggressively passive. Because thier bodies are just...made for that. But now the emotional/ mentally can be completely different and thats not what Im talking about. Mentally, she doesnt/isnt passive, but phyically, with her three holes, she is.
I'm not trying to be a creep, I'm just trying to understand. So, does penetration equal aggression?
Quote from: Shades O'Grey on September 03, 2008, 02:16:48 PMI'm not trying to be a creep, I'm just trying to understand. So, does penetration equal aggression?
...No?
If I had the right body parts, I would consider it my expression of passion as well as lust. But no anger or aggression involved... Maybe a little rough, but not to the point of injury.
Quote from: Shades O'Grey on September 03, 2008, 02:16:48 PM
Quote from: Jack Daniels on September 03, 2008, 02:10:53 PM
Quote from: Shades O'Grey on September 03, 2008, 01:20:18 PM
Quote from: Jack Daniels on September 03, 2008, 12:47:02 PM
women were born to be sexually passive in every way of the word
My experience with women, albeit limited, has been quite the opposite.
Well, no matter how you look at it, she ie still getting "screwed", and she may be aggressive about it, but then that s just being aggressively passive. Because thier bodies are just...made for that. But now the emotional/ mentally can be completely different and thats not what Im talking about. Mentally, she doesnt/isnt passive, but phyically, with her three holes, she is.
I'm not trying to be a creep, I'm just trying to understand. So, does penetration equal aggression?
Well actually, body wise and body wise only, your body is not passive, penetration can be assertive, or agressive...now I dont necessary mean...umm...letting a girl ride you makes you passive since shes in control, but the foundation of the body, the very fact that it can penetrate leaves room and potential to be aggressive, but girls dont have that option phsyically.NOT saying they cant be in "power" during sex, cause they can but...God damn am I making any sense to you
Quote from: Jack Daniels on September 03, 2008, 02:31:36 PM
Well actually, body wise and body wise only, your body is not passive, penetration can be assertive, or agressive...now I dont necessary mean...umm...letting a girl ride you makes you passive since shes in control, but the foundation of the body, the very fact that it can penetrate leaves room and potential to be aggressive, but girls dont have that option phsyically.NOT saying they cant be in "power" during sex, cause they can but...God damn am I making any sense to you
Yes, I think you are making sense.
Biologically, women can penetrate, too, using fingers. Not quite the same, I realize, but it seems to me that hands have more potential for aggressiveness than genitals.
But, I think I am beginning to understand.
Quote from: Jack Daniels on September 03, 2008, 02:31:36 PM
Well actually, body wise and body wise only, your body is not passive, penetration can be assertive, or agressive...now I dont necessary mean...umm...letting a girl ride you makes you passive since shes in control, but the foundation of the body, the very fact that it can penetrate leaves room and potential to be aggressive, but girls dont have that option phsyically.NOT saying they cant be in "power" during sex, cause they can but...God damn am I making any sense to you
You are making perfect sense to me, this is something I've had to deal with in my personal life for years now. Wanting the option, 'feeling' the instinct at times, and wanting very badly to be able to penetrate yet not being able to and having to always be in the opposite position is frustrating beyond belief. The fact that I'm stuck with a body that was made for nothing but 'receiving' and I don't always want to 'receive' just makes everything worse.
Quote from: Elwood on September 02, 2008, 05:35:32 PM
To most, small = cute, like you said. That bugs the ->-bleeped-<- out of me. I want to be 'attractive' and 'sexy' and worthwhile and all that. Stuff that gets a person excited, not a "warm and fuzzy feeling."
For what it's worth, I met three F2Ms in Montreal. All were around 5'4", and with me being 6'2", I was obviously waaaaay taller.
And yet, there's no way I could think of them as being "cute" (in a cuddly sense). No, they were darn HOT and seriously sexy. Masculine. I loved being around them, as they made me feel all the more feminine and delicate in contrast, regardless of the height difference.
~Katie Marie~
Quote from: Kate on September 03, 2008, 03:47:43 PMQuote from: Elwood on September 02, 2008, 05:35:32 PMTo most, small = cute, like you said. That bugs the ->-bleeped-<- out of me. I want to be 'attractive' and 'sexy' and worthwhile and all that. Stuff that gets a person excited, not a "warm and fuzzy feeling."
For what it's worth, I met three F2Ms in Montreal. All were around 5'4", and with me being 6'2", I was obviously waaaaay taller.
And yet, there's no way I could think of them as being "cute" (in a cuddly sense). No, they were darn HOT and seriously sexy. Masculine. I loved being around them, as they made me feel all the more feminine and delicate in contrast, regardless of the height difference.
~Katie Marie~
Thank you for posting this, Kate. It helps my confidence, really.
Quote from: Kate on September 03, 2008, 03:47:43 PM
Quote from: Elwood on September 02, 2008, 05:35:32 PM
To most, small = cute, like you said. That bugs the ->-bleeped-<- out of me. I want to be 'attractive' and 'sexy' and worthwhile and all that. Stuff that gets a person excited, not a "warm and fuzzy feeling."
For what it's worth, I met three F2Ms in Montreal. All were around 5'4", and with me being 6'2", I was obviously waaaaay taller.
And yet, there's no way I could think of them as being "cute" (in a cuddly sense). No, they were darn HOT and seriously sexy. Masculine. I loved being around them, as they made me feel all the more feminine and delicate in contrast, regardless of the height difference.
~Katie Marie~
*grin*
Seconded. Thanks for saying that. I cannot tell you how many times I've been called cute (I presume in the cuddly sense). Really hope I can drop that. Soon.
Quote from: Phate on September 03, 2008, 03:39:55 PM
Quote from: Jack Daniels on September 03, 2008, 02:31:36 PM
Well actually, body wise and body wise only, your body is not passive, penetration can be assertive, or agressive...now I dont necessary mean...umm...letting a girl ride you makes you passive since shes in control, but the foundation of the body, the very fact that it can penetrate leaves room and potential to be aggressive, but girls dont have that option phsyically.NOT saying they cant be in "power" during sex, cause they can but...God damn am I making any sense to you
You are making perfect sense to me, this is something I've had to deal with in my personal life for years now. Wanting the option, 'feeling' the instinct at times, and wanting very badly to be able to penetrate yet not being able to and having to always be in the opposite position is frustrating beyond belief. The fact that I'm stuck with a body that was made for nothing but 'receiving' and I don't always want to 'receive' just makes everything worse.
Im glad im making sense
Ok just to clarify. When I use the word 'degraded', I mean that's how it feels to me to have the wrong body.
I've got nothing against women, I'm not sexist at all. I have a mother.
Quote from: Nero on September 03, 2008, 05:05:10 PM
Ok just to clarify. When I use the word 'degraded', I mean that's how it feels to me to have the wrong body.
I've got nothing against women, I'm not sexist at all. I have a mother.
Thanks for the clarification, Nero. I kinda thought that's what you meant. But you initial post was so strongly worded, I wasn't entirely sure.
I feel I should add that most (if not all) mysoginists have mothers, too. ;)
Just for you guys who do not like being cute, if you get a girlfriend (unless you already have one) she will call you cute at some point! ::) Maybe once or twice, maybe a lot, but you can never escape being called that! Not all guys, if you've got a boyfriend, do that though, but generally a lot more girls that guys seem to do that.
I don't like it either, but I just try to ignore it or let it slide if I like the person ???
Quote from: Phate on September 03, 2008, 05:35:59 PMJust for you guys who do not like being cute, if you get a girlfriend (unless you already have one) she will call you cute at some point! ::) Maybe once or twice, maybe a lot, but you can never escape being called that! Not all guys, if you've got a boyfriend, do that though, but generally a lot more girls that guys seem to do that.
I don't like it either, but I just try to ignore it or let it slide if I like the person ???
Right, but I hope she'll also call me other things that are more masculine as well. If she makes me feel like a man, she can call me poo-bear.
Quote from: Elwood on September 03, 2008, 05:37:14 PM
Quote from: Phate on September 03, 2008, 05:35:59 PMJust for you guys who do not like being cute, if you get a girlfriend (unless you already have one) she will call you cute at some point! ::) Maybe once or twice, maybe a lot, but you can never escape being called that! Not all guys, if you've got a boyfriend, do that though, but generally a lot more girls that guys seem to do that.
I don't like it either, but I just try to ignore it or let it slide if I like the person ???
Right, but I hope she'll also call me other things that are more masculine as well. If she makes me feel like a man, she can call me poo-bear.
Ya, I'd rather have my girlfriend, when I get one, to call me something masculine. But I guess there is a cute in a guy sort of way.
Quote from: Elwood on September 03, 2008, 05:37:14 PM
Quote from: Phate on September 03, 2008, 05:35:59 PMJust for you guys who do not like being cute, if you get a girlfriend (unless you already have one) she will call you cute at some point! ::) Maybe once or twice, maybe a lot, but you can never escape being called that! Not all guys, if you've got a boyfriend, do that though, but generally a lot more girls that guys seem to do that.
I don't like it either, but I just try to ignore it or let it slide if I like the person ???
Right, but I hope she'll also call me other things that are more masculine as well. If she makes me feel like a man, she can call me poo-bear.
I can understand that, but something like pooh-bear is kind of...nausea inducing, at least for me ??? What kind of things could someone call you, pet name wise I guess, that would be more masculine. "Hey there Conan, you think you could open this pickle jar for me? *wink*" Lol, just kidding. :P
Quote from: Adam on September 03, 2008, 06:00:21 PM
Ya, I'd rather have my girlfriend, when I get one, to call me something masculine. But I guess there is a cute in a guy sort of way.
Oh hey, I call guys "cute" all the time. But I do NOT mean it in a pinch-the-cheek,
"oh you're so cute!" way... TRUST me ;)
~Katie Marie~
Quote from: Phate on September 03, 2008, 06:00:37 PMQuote from: Elwood on September 03, 2008, 05:37:14 PMQuote from: Phate on September 03, 2008, 05:35:59 PMJust for you guys who do not like being cute, if you get a girlfriend (unless you already have one) she will call you cute at some point! ::) Maybe once or twice, maybe a lot, but you can never escape being called that! Not all guys, if you've got a boyfriend, do that though, but generally a lot more girls that guys seem to do that.
I don't like it either, but I just try to ignore it or let it slide if I like the person ???
Right, but I hope she'll also call me other things that are more masculine as well. If she makes me feel like a man, she can call me poo-bear.
I can understand that, but something like pooh-bear is kind of...nausea inducing, at least for me ??? What kind of things could someone call you, pet name wise I guess, that would be more masculine. "Hey there Conan, you think you could open this pickle jar for me? *wink*" Lol, just kidding. :P
I couldn't agree more. I was going to that extreme because that's how much feeling masculine and having it be acknowledged means to me.
I personally just don't like nick names. But I'd love it if my partner called me "Danny." Only people I really like can call me Danny.
Quote from: Shades O'Grey on September 03, 2008, 05:12:26 PM
Quote from: Nero on September 03, 2008, 05:05:10 PM
Ok just to clarify. When I use the word 'degraded', I mean that's how it feels to me to have the wrong body.
I've got nothing against women, I'm not sexist at all. I have a mother.
Thanks for the clarification, Nero. I kinda thought that's what you meant. But you initial post was so strongly worded, I wasn't entirely sure.
I feel I should add that most (if not all) mysoginists have mothers, too. ;)
I, too , understand where you re comin from, and you re right, most mysoginists have moms(if not all), but at the same time I hate my mother for being a woman and doing womanly( havin kids) thing, and other steorytypical stuff.(I must sound like a mysoginist right now..)
Quote from: Jack Daniels on September 03, 2008, 06:38:24 PM
I, too , understand where you re comin from, and you re right, most mysoginists have moms(if not all), but at the same time I hate my mother for being a woman and doing womanly( havin kids) thing, and other steorytypical stuff.(I must sound like a mysoginist right now..)
Surface level, this seems misogynist but you don't strike me as one. if you hate her for BEING a woman... i can't help but think it's projected hatred for what society expects you to do. any possibility that' right?
Quote from: iFindMeHere on September 03, 2008, 07:01:42 PM
Quote from: Jack Daniels on September 03, 2008, 06:38:24 PM
I, too , understand where you re comin from, and you re right, most mysoginists have moms(if not all), but at the same time I hate my mother for being a woman and doing womanly( havin kids) thing, and other steorytypical stuff.(I must sound like a mysoginist right now..)
Surface level, this seems misogynist but you don't strike me as one. if you hate her for BEING a woman... i can't help but think it's projected hatred for what society expects you to do. any possibility that' right?
Not only is she a "woman", but she accepts it, and man I hate that! With a god damn passion. Maybe its society, but then seein all these people accept their society "rules" just...gets to me
Quote from: Jack Daniels on September 03, 2008, 07:16:51 PM
Quote from: iFindMeHere on September 03, 2008, 07:01:42 PM
Quote from: Jack Daniels on September 03, 2008, 06:38:24 PM
I, too , understand where you re comin from, and you re right, most mysoginists have moms(if not all), but at the same time I hate my mother for being a woman and doing womanly( havin kids) thing, and other steorytypical stuff.(I must sound like a mysoginist right now..)
Surface level, this seems misogynist but you don't strike me as one. if you hate her for BEING a woman... i can't help but think it's projected hatred for what society expects you to do. any possibility that' right?
Not only is she a "woman", but she accepts it, and man I hate that! With a god damn passion. Maybe its society, but then seein all these people accept their society "rules" just...gets to me
umm are you saying she's a closet ftm?
Quote from: Nero on September 03, 2008, 07:40:49 PM
Quote from: Jack Daniels on September 03, 2008, 07:16:51 PM
Quote from: iFindMeHere on September 03, 2008, 07:01:42 PM
Quote from: Jack Daniels on September 03, 2008, 06:38:24 PM
I, too , understand where you re comin from, and you re right, most mysoginists have moms(if not all), but at the same time I hate my mother for being a woman and doing womanly( havin kids) thing, and other steorytypical stuff.(I must sound like a mysoginist right now..)
Surface level, this seems misogynist but you don't strike me as one. if you hate her for BEING a woman... i can't help but think it's projected hatred for what society expects you to do. any possibility that' right?
Not only is she a "woman", but she accepts it, and man I hate that! With a god damn passion. Maybe its society, but then seein all these people accept their society "rules" just...gets to me
umm are you saying she's a closet ftm?
umm...no?
Quote from: Jack Daniels on September 03, 2008, 06:38:24 PM
I, too , understand where you re comin from, and you re right, most mysoginists have moms(if not all), but at the same time I hate my mother for being a woman and doing womanly( havin kids) thing, and other steorytypical stuff.(I must sound like a mysoginist right now..)
OK, I'm confused again. If she didn't have kids, you wouldn't be here. Why hate her for that? Or, do you hate life itself? If women didn't have kids, most of us wouldn't be here.
If the societal roles work for some folks, where's the problem? They don't work for me, that's certain; my wife and I don't adhere to them. Though, she did of course bear and nurse our kids. I don't understand the evil in that.
Quote from: Shades O'Grey on September 03, 2008, 11:20:00 PM
Quote from: Jack Daniels on September 03, 2008, 06:38:24 PM
I, too , understand where you re comin from, and you re right, most mysoginists have moms(if not all), but at the same time I hate my mother for being a woman and doing womanly( havin kids) thing, and other steorytypical stuff.(I must sound like a mysoginist right now..)
OK, I'm confused again. If she didn't have kids, you wouldn't be here. Why hate her for that? Or, do you hate life itself? If women didn't have kids, most of us wouldn't be here.
If the societal roles work for some folks, where's the problem? They don't work for me, that's certain; my wife and I don't adhere to them. Though, she did of course bear and nurse our kids. I don't understand the evil in that.
Well I think she had me because she felt she had to instead of actually wanting to...But if someone wants to have kids, then thats cool..for them.But actually, I personally wish she would of had an abortion with me. But no, if you actually want the kid, then thats completely different
Quote from: Jack Daniels on September 03, 2008, 07:16:51 PM
Quote from: iFindMeHere on September 03, 2008, 07:01:42 PM
Quote from: Jack Daniels on September 03, 2008, 06:38:24 PM
I, too , understand where you re comin from, and you re right, most mysoginists have moms(if not all), but at the same time I hate my mother for being a woman and doing womanly( havin kids) thing, and other steorytypical stuff.(I must sound like a mysoginist right now..)
Surface level, this seems misogynist but you don't strike me as one. if you hate her for BEING a woman... i can't help but think it's projected hatred for what society expects you to do. any possibility that' right?
Not only is she a "woman", but she accepts it, and man I hate that! With a god damn passion. Maybe its society, but then seein all these people accept their society "rules" just...gets to me
is she happy?
Posted on: September 04, 2008, 01:35:29 AM
Quote from: Jack Daniels on September 04, 2008, 12:34:58 AM
Quote from: Shades O'Grey on September 03, 2008, 11:20:00 PM
Quote from: Jack Daniels on September 03, 2008, 06:38:24 PM
I, too , understand where you re comin from, and you re right, most mysoginists have moms(if not all), but at the same time I hate my mother for being a woman and doing womanly( havin kids) thing, and other steorytypical stuff.(I must sound like a mysoginist right now..)
OK, I'm confused again. If she didn't have kids, you wouldn't be here. Why hate her for that? Or, do you hate life itself? If women didn't have kids, most of us wouldn't be here.
If the societal roles work for some folks, where's the problem? They don't work for me, that's certain; my wife and I don't adhere to them. Though, she did of course bear and nurse our kids. I don't understand the evil in that.
Well I think she had me because she felt she had to instead of actually wanting to...But if someone wants to have kids, then thats cool..for them.But actually, I personally wish she would of had an abortion with me. But no, if you actually want the kid, then thats completely different
i'm sorry she's punishing you for being born.
Quote from: Jack Daniels on September 04, 2008, 12:34:58 AM
Well I think she had me because she felt she had to instead of actually wanting to...But if someone wants to have kids, then thats cool..for them.But actually, I personally wish she would of had an abortion with me. But no, if you actually want the kid, then thats completely different
OK, I think I understand again.
Back to Nero's orginal point, yes, an FTM will have to work harder than a bio-male to prove their manhood. Just like an MTF will have to work harder than a bio-female to prove their womanhood. This could be societal, or it could be biological. TS folks, if I understand correctly, basically have their bodies working against their minds. Androgyne, bigender, and non-binary gender variant folks will be reviled by just about anyone because we/they don't fall into neatly defined categories.
Please note that I'm not defending these things; I'm just explaining what I've noticed.
I think that my parents had kids for two reasons: 1) that's what's done and 2) they wanted to. I don't hate my dad for siring my brothers and I. I don't hate my dad for bowing to the male role or trying to force it down my throat. No. I hate him because he's a bigot. I guess I'm a bigot, too, because I hate bigots. That makes me a failure as both a Buddhist and a Christian, because I'm bigotted against bigots.
Anyway...
TS folks can escape the roles of their bio-genders, but they'll end up being held to others instead. Growing up male in the US isn't all it's cracked up to be, believe me.
You want to be thought of as male? Don't ever cry.
You want to be thought of as male? Only express anger and hate and contempt. Joy is OK, if it's joy at getting laid or joy at seeing someone you hate suffer.
You want to be thought of as male? Don't desire to be loved.
You want to be thought of as male? Be prepared to make others suffer.
The above basically came to me from my dad and society in general. Viewing those, as well as what some of the FTMs here have posted, I must not be male.
I do cry.
I express a wide range of emotions.
I need to be told I'm loved. (My dad actually told me that, "Women need to be told they're loved. Men don't." I sh!t you not.)
I want to be desired and desirable.
I hate seeing people suffer.
On the topic of "cute" nicknames and being male, my wife's pet name for me is Furry. For the most part, I'm OK with this BECAUSE it's cute. I don't like it only because it reminds me that nearly every square inch of my body is covered in dark (though becoming gray) hair. For me, the masculine role doesn't work. But if I understand some of the posts in this thread, there are those here who want to accept that role.
If that's what they want, good. Let them take that role. But, it's still a societal role. My mom was incensed when she learned that I not only cook dinner every night, but that I cooked it on my birthday. She felt that as a gift, my wife should have cooked instead. My wife hates to cook, and I love to cook. To me, cooking on my birthday WAS a gift. My wife would buy things we normally wouldn't have and I'd cook up a storm. I can't tell you the amount of flak we've received because of this arrangement... from women and men alike.
On another message board some time ago, I announced that my dream career was to be a house-husband. Oh, the abuse I got for that one. Why? Because it's an affront to manhood, that's why.
Manhood and womanhood are defined both by the individual and by the society. As mentioned in another thread here, "passing" is adhering to other people's standards of what is male and/or female. It's quite the same with manhood and womanhood. We will always be judged by others; it seems unavoidable. Whether we accept the roles society assigns to our birth bodies or surgically reassigned bodies, it's still accepting roles. The only real problem I see with that would be if one is uncomfortable with the role but takes it on anyway. If one is comfortable with the role and that role makes them happy, so be it.
Quote from: Shades O'Grey on September 04, 2008, 10:18:56 AMTS folks can escape the roles of their bio-genders, but they'll end up being held to others instead. Growing up male in the US isn't all it's cracked up to be, believe me.
I don't really want to be male for the societal benefits of being male. I want my body to feel the way I believe it should. I want the pain to stop and I want my urges to "cross dress" to be urges to "dress normal" for my gender. Know what I mean? I'm biologically female, but so desperately want to be biologically male.
Quote from: Shades O'Grey on September 04, 2008, 10:18:56 AMYou want to be thought of as male? Don't ever cry.
You want to be thought of as male? Only express anger and hate and contempt. Joy is OK, if it's joy at getting laid or joy at seeing someone you hate suffer.
You want to be thought of as male? Don't desire to be loved.
You want to be thought of as male? Be prepared to make others suffer.
I struggle with all of these except the last one. The first one especially. I fee very often like crying, but a voice in my head keeps saying, "Boys don't cry, boys don't cry, boys don't cry, boys don't..."
Quote from: Shades O'Grey on September 04, 2008, 10:18:56 AMManhood and womanhood are defined both by the individual and by the society. As mentioned in another thread here, "passing" is adhering to other people's standards of what is male and/or female. It's quite the same with manhood and womanhood. We will always be judged by others; it seems unavoidable. Whether we accept the roles society assigns to our birth bodies or surgically reassigned bodies, it's still accepting roles. The only real problem I see with that would be if one is uncomfortable with the role but takes it on anyway. If one is comfortable with the role and that role makes them happy, so be it.
Passing isn't my goal in life, really. I want to be a man who blends into the crowd. Who is extraordinarily average. A guy who doesn't get stares on the street like he's some kind of freak. A guy who doesn't scare a lover because of his mixed genitals.
Those were some good points Dan.
Quote from: Shades O'Grey on September 04, 2008, 10:18:56 AMYou want to be thought of as male? Don't ever cry.
You want to be thought of as male? Only express anger and hate and contempt. Joy is OK, if it's joy at getting laid or joy at seeing someone you hate suffer.
You want to be thought of as male? Don't desire to be loved.
You want to be thought of as male? Be prepared to make others suffer.
The 'crying thing' seems to be the only universal of these. And it's not even limited to males. I was taught not to cry too, even as a girl. But the others are all pretty extreme examples and certainly not universal. And sound more like bitterness at a perceived role of manhood. Most men teach their children to be kind, male or female.
At my house we didn't hear: Don't cry.
Instead, you got no sympathy, but a "Get over it."
I do cry; it takes a lot for me to cry if I'm upset. I do cry easily at movies or when I'm overjoyed/proud etc. Most of the men in my life have cried, so it's not that men don't cry, they do. They just save it for the huge things. Like death in the family, or some other huge loss/failure.
Some women do cry at the drop of a hat. I work with several that go on and on about the intimate details of their personal lives, fights with bf's and roommates and what not, often in tears as they recount stuff. I'm like, TMI, ladies!!! And stop crying on the job!! It's unprofessional!!!
Jay
i cry kindof a lot. >_> i cried last night and today infact. and last night i don even know why! and ive been getting all mushy during movies lately... its more annoying than anything.
You want to be thought of as male? Don't ever cry.
You want to be thought of as male? Only express anger and hate and contempt. Joy is OK, if it's joy at getting laid or joy at seeing someone you hate suffer.
You want to be thought of as male? Don't desire to be loved.
You want to be thought of as male? Be prepared to make others suffer.
Kind of hate filled don't cha think?
I know guys who cry, art moves them, true suffering moves them, nature live moves them. They are not full of anger and hate and contempt, they are full of life, and loving it. They don't make others suffer.
What they do to be male is to work hard to do something worthwhile. To create, to build, to be a part of something greater than yourself. They try to be honest. To be true. To have each others backs. To be apart of and not apart from.
Quote from: tekla on September 04, 2008, 11:44:40 PM
What they do to be male is to work hard to do something worthwhile. To create, to build, to be a part of something greater than yourself. They try to be honest. To be true. To have each others backs. To be apart of and not apart from.
I think everyone should try to be more this way. Honest and true to yourself and others, striving for worthwhile efforts that are often greater than yourself that benefits a whole, etc etc.
Only in a perfect world though, because greed, selfishness and deceit will always exist.
Quote from: Phate on September 04, 2008, 11:52:56 PM
Quote from: tekla on September 04, 2008, 11:44:40 PM
What they do to be male is to work hard to do something worthwhile. To create, to build, to be a part of something greater than yourself. They try to be honest. To be true. To have each others backs. To be apart of and not apart from.
I think everyone should try to be more this way. Honest and true to yourself and others, striving for worthwhile efforts that are often greater than yourself that benefits a whole, etc etc.
Only in a perfect world though, because greed, selfishness and deceit will always exist.
I'm on tekla's side. I mean, hell, look at us here and now. We're part of a safe space for ourselves and others like us.
Quote from: iFindMeHere on September 04, 2008, 11:58:50 PM
Quote from: Phate on September 04, 2008, 11:52:56 PM
Quote from: tekla on September 04, 2008, 11:44:40 PM
What they do to be male is to work hard to do something worthwhile. To create, to build, to be a part of something greater than yourself. They try to be honest. To be true. To have each others backs. To be apart of and not apart from.
I think everyone should try to be more this way. Honest and true to yourself and others, striving for worthwhile efforts that are often greater than yourself that benefits a whole, etc etc.
Only in a perfect world though, because greed, selfishness and deceit will always exist.
I'm on tekla's side. I mean, hell, look at us here and now. We're part of a safe space for ourselves and others like us.
What do you mean exactly by saying you're on tekla's side? Just curious, I was agreeing with tekla, but also saying I think it would be great if everyone aspired to be that way.
Nero, what I was taught, by my dad, was that men were supposed to be tough. He would say that one should be kind towards women, but his words and actions toward my mother contradicted what he tried to teach me.
Dan, I wasn't trying to imply that TS folks willingly want to take on different societal roles. I hope my post didn't read that way, but I know I'm not always very clear. It just seems to me, based on what I've observed, that society in general has certain expections of men and women. I don't think people go through SRS to pass. I think they go through it to become what they truly should be.
Tekla, I don't think my post was hate filled. It was a summary of how was I taught to act growing up. I actually tried to be sure it WASN'T hate filled. I was going for coldly analytical, but I guess I failed.
Do I believe those things I posted were how men should act? No. I was taught, however, that those things were manly. Unfortunately, I haven't met many men in my life thus far who are like the ones you describe. And it would seem that these men you describe don't adhere to the male stereotypes in our society. I've met some men like this, but they have (so far) been outnumbered by the creeps I've run into. It's quite similar to how many Christians get a bad rep due to the rabid fundies. They aren't typical of all Christians. But, they can give Christians a bad name.
iFindMeHere, I don't doubt Tekla. I've just not been as fortunate yet. Yes, we are part of a safe place. But reading many of the news articles posted here at Susans suggests that the world in general is not. It seems to me that part of the reason it isn't safe is because of the societal roles. If people choose the roles and are comfortable with them, fine. What's unfine is when they are imposed on others. I'm still trying to reprogram myself, but I think I'm getting it.
Quote from: Phate on September 05, 2008, 12:05:06 AM
Quote from: iFindMeHere on September 04, 2008, 11:58:50 PM
Quote from: Phate on September 04, 2008, 11:52:56 PM
Quote from: tekla on September 04, 2008, 11:44:40 PM
What they do to be male is to work hard to do something worthwhile. To create, to build, to be a part of something greater than yourself. They try to be honest. To be true. To have each others backs. To be apart of and not apart from.
I think everyone should try to be more this way. Honest and true to yourself and others, striving for worthwhile efforts that are often greater than yourself that benefits a whole, etc etc.
Only in a perfect world though, because greed, selfishness and deceit will always exist.
I'm on tekla's side. I mean, hell, look at us here and now. We're part of a safe space for ourselves and others like us.
What do you mean exactly by saying you're on tekla's side? Just curious, I was agreeing with tekla, but also saying I think it would be great if everyone aspired to be that way.
The part that I neglected to add was "Greed, Selfishness and Deceit" will exist the less we reach out and teach others (especially children). Sorry. Not a great communicater (as I have learned recently)
Quote from: iFindMeHere on September 05, 2008, 05:17:35 AM
The part that I neglected to add was "Greed, Selfishness and Deceit" will exist the less we reach out and teach others (especially children). Sorry. Not a great communicater (as I have learned recently)
No worries, I understand what you're trying to say now and I totally agree.
Its funny, I never looked up to men for most of my life. Guys I genuinely liked, were mostly an exception rather than a rule. My Mum has always been one of my greatest role-models as she was primarily the person who raised me. She was never a particularly feminine woman. As well as being an awesome cook, seamstress and mother... she could also be as blokey as the next guy if the urge came to her XD so I was never forced to be feminine, I just did what came naturally for the most part. There were somethings I stopped myself from doing because I thought it would look weird for a girl to do it, because of what I assumed to be appropriate of society in general.
Furthermore, New Zealand is a rather blokey country itself. Theres alot of women who are like my Mum, it has a really easygoing atmosphere to Tomboys (of all ages)
I was and still am a feminist... and one of the hardest things I found in accepting myself as Trans was giving up my desire to become a powerful, strong, successful woman. Especially since I work in the Animation industry which is still quite male-dominated and I wanted to be someone young girls could look up to and see they didn't have to take the normal road in life. I was proud about being a female but I never have been comfortable as a female, nor at ease with being called a girl, a woman, a lady, a mam etc... I miss what I could be for women in general.
But now I instead identify as both a QueerActivist and a Feminist... so I'll (hopefully) become a role-model for Trans and Queer youth as well as Girls and Women.
So, to get back to the topic at hand after that tikki tour... I doubt I will ever feel like my 'manhood' is challenged because I don't subscribe to being a 'man'. Yeah I'm masculine... but I don't feel any particular need to prove it, nor do I care about the preconceived roles of maleness.
I just want to care and protect my loved ones...
I want to be of use to society...
I want to be someone people can look up to...
I want to make a difference in the world...
I want to draw lots and lots and lots...
Basically, I prescribe to OldSchool Masculinity, which changed as women got more rights and equality and masculinity became something else. (Read 'Stiffed' by Susan Faludi)
I feel more comfortable with homosexual dynamics than heterosexual. So the more masculine I begin to look and feel due to T... the more comfortable I am with the thought of being with another guy. But at the same time, if I was with a woman I would prefer to think of myself in a more 'dykeish' manner.
Feck, I'm just weird probably ;D I think I answered the topic question at some point during all this...
Quote from: kestin on September 05, 2008, 04:21:06 PM
I was and still am a feminist... and one of the hardest things I found in accepting myself as Trans was giving up my desire to become a powerful, strong, successful woman. Especially since I work in the Animation industry which is still quite male-dominated and I wanted to be someone young girls could look up to and see they didn't have to take the normal road in life. I was proud about being a female but I never have been comfortable as a female, nor at ease with being called a girl, a woman, a lady, a mam etc... I miss what I could be for women in general.
....
I feel more comfortable with homosexual dynamics than heterosexual. So the more masculine I begin to look and feel due to T... the more comfortable I am with the thought of being with another guy. But at the same time, if I was with a woman I would prefer to think of myself in a more 'dykeish' manner.
Feck, I'm just weird probably ;D I think I answered the topic question at some point during all this...
Hey, who said you could read my mail? :P