Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Hold tight, girls - we're going deep now!:)  So I've had this thought rolling around in my head for a while.  I have expectations of what it would feel like to have a woman's body.  Call them fantasies or imaginings or dreams.  I've never had a woman's body, never experienced it, have no concrete knowledge of what it feels like(except for a few dreams in which I did have a woman's body, and I was absolutely glowing when I woke up!).  So my imaginings of what the experience would be like could be vastly different from the reality of what the experience feels like.  I expect it WILL be different - my concern is to what degree.  I know I have a feminine soul that needs to be expressed - that's not the issue.  It's how different my expectations are from the reality.  Almost like going to a movie with certain expectations, but finding that the reality is quite different.  I'd like to hear about your personal journeys - how your expectations of womanhood matched or didn't match the reality of living it.  Since I haven't experienced having a female body, I've written down my current expectations of having one.

Calmer, less aggressive, less anxiety interacting with people

Women will accept me as one of them - more girl talk, more fluid conversations(because I don't need to be concerned about revealing too much of my feminine personality)

People will not be weirded out by my fem mannerisms, speech patterns, or body language

Lesbians will consider me as a suitable partner(at least, alot more than do now!:P)

Emotions will intensify - cry more, happy more, feel more

Calmer, more patient, and move loving to my daughter - less irritable

More concerned with my appearance

Straight men will be more attracted to me, men in general will expect less from me - more impressed when I exceed their expectations

Feel more vulnerable(physically and emotionally)

Love myself

Look in the mirror and be happy that I have this body and that I'm me

Feel sexier, more attractive

More difficult to orgasm, but more intense(waves, tinglies, multiple)

Become more communal oriented

Feel a closer bond to my lovers(women)

Expected to wear makeup, jewelry, accessories

Expected not to work on my car or house, or eat a big plate of ribs, etc - to be "girly"

Be scroned by men as a "dyke", talked about behind my back by women

Smoother skin, less body hair, less shaving

Closer affiliation with my body, more self-confidence

More jiggly - more hips, more chest, less tummy/shoulders

That's kind of an odd point to leave off on, but that's where my list ends!:)  What has the journey from expectation to reality been like for you girls?

If you'd numbered them it would have been easier ;) in the order you have them listed, my experience so far:

1-3- yes
4- maybe
5- definitely yes
6- depends
7- yes
8- 3 parts: possibly, yes, and don't count on it- men usually don't like to be upstaged by women
9- definitely
10- yes, if not having it is causing you to not love yourself now. Otherwise, there may be other issues to work through
11- yes
12- maybe
13- yes, yes, YES!
14- huh? okay, more family oriented
15- yes
16- not necessarily
17- lol, yes
18- maybe
19- thank god yes
20- takes time
21- yes, except for tummy

in general, nothing has been exactly what I expected, but in general it's all been positive.

Janet

I have more or less the same emotions, and I don't know about post-SRS orgasm. Otherwise, that sounds pretty realistic to me, not perfect, but close. Most of what you're talking about has to do with social presentation, not specifically the physical character of your body.

I think Chloe and Janet pretty much summed it up. I can't really add anything but to mention that it has thus far exceeded every expectation, dream, and hope I had by leaps and bounds. I think they tell us to expect the worst to brace us for the social difficulties, because the physical and emotional parts have been nothing short of mind blowing.

QuoteBe scorned by men as a "dyke"

This made me lol, thank you  :-*

I'd just say it feels natural.. more natural.. and stop being "ohh bluuuuuuuuurgh" at yourself all the time..

For me, it's been quite a bit better than expected, physically, although I have two complaints:

I hate not having upper body strength
I am even more sensitive to cold

I had different expectations than you did, however.

I am pre but I already know a lot about what you expect and the truth; A lot but not all of T-Girls expect to get sexy womanly curves and to be blazin'--But the thing is, their diet and exercise is still that as of an man.

Once you "become" a "woman", you have to change your diet and exercise, because if you eat like most typical men do and watch TV all day like typical not all men, then you will be heavier quicker!

So a lot of T-Girls end up gaining a lot of weight...

Quote from: calliope on September 26, 2009, 12:47:31 PM
Calmer, less aggressive, less anxiety interacting with people

Women will accept me as one of them - more girl talk, more fluid conversations(because I don't need to be concerned about revealing too much of my feminine personality)

People will not be weirded out by my fem mannerisms, speech patterns, or body language

Lesbians will consider me as a suitable partner(at least, alot more than do now!:P)

Emotions will intensify - cry more, happy more, feel more

Calmer, more patient, and move loving to my daughter - less irritable

More concerned with my appearance

Straight men will be more attracted to me, men in general will expect less from me - more impressed when I exceed their expectations

Feel more vulnerable (physically and emotionally)

Love myself

Look in the mirror and be happy that I have this body and that I'm me

Feel sexier, more attractive

I was with you through all this, especially the highlighted ones, but you kind of lost me after this part.  That women would admit me to their club was a surprise and a continuing delight.  My emotions used to be pretty stable but now are all over the map.  And, even being the same size and more or less the same strength, I feel more vulnerable.

I am far more open. 

After speaking few words in my lifetime I have become very chatty.  (Making up for lost time? ;)) 

I am far more relaxed and feel I have little to prove.  Therefore I finally feel that I can just be myself.  (And if you don't like it, so what?)

I sometimes tell people I never realized that one person could be this happy. ;D

As in all things, reality turns out a bit different than our expectations, so stay flexible.  But I agree with most of your list.  (This from someone of great experience, having been RLE less than six months. ::))

- Kate

Quote from: K8 on September 27, 2009, 07:49:51 PMThat women would admit me to their club was a surprise and a continuing delight.

geez ain't it though? The first time my (female) roommate's girlfriend invited me and another female friend over to her bedroom for trying on clothes and we were all like stripping down and swapping tops and skirts while "the guys" sat around the living room talking sports I was like omg, I have arrived lol


 

Quote from: calliope on September 26, 2009, 12:47:31 PM

Calmer, more patient, and move loving to my daughter - less irritable

I'm not sure about this one, I think maybe this

QuoteEmotions will intensify - cry more, happy more, feel more

will have something to say about the less irritable part (maybe - depends on you and your daughter).

I have also heard that in addition to emotions intensifying, that also senses become more acute. Smell, touch, taste, sight (colors), hear and I believe intuition as well. I'll have to get back with you on these - when I ever get there myself. :)

Great list though.

Deanna

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Post Merge: September 28, 2009, 12:33:35 AM

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Quote from: FairyGirl on September 27, 2009, 09:34:50 PM
geez ain't it though? The first time my (female) roommate's girlfriend invited me and another female friend over to her bedroom for trying on clothes and we were all like stripping down and swapping tops and skirts while "the guys" sat around the living room talking sports I was like omg, I have arrived lol

OMG! That is so awesome, I can't wait till I make the club.

Deanna

Hey...... today a female friend I made only quite recently got me to wax the parts of her legs that she finds awkward, like higher rear upper thigh  :o

( - since we've chatted previously and already established that she doesn't fancy lesbians and that what little I ever did have to offer as a guy is now utterly inert, there's no way it was any kind of come-on or anything.)

Quote from: K8 on September 27, 2009, 07:49:51 PM

As in all things, reality turns out a bit different than our expectations, so stay flexible.

Totally agree with that K8! I also love your lil quote 'is this really happening?' That SO sums up how I feel about my transition now.

I'm not good enough with computers to figure out how to answer each question point by point. Now that is "girlie" circa 1970!

My expectations were much higher than the reality that after 10 years of HRT it did absolutely nothing! I wouldn't mind if I got even so much as a few minor effects but it really hasn't made any difference. I'm skinny and if I try and put on weight it goes on my belly and I have no bust and nothing going on in the hip department. I'm pretty depressed, especially after all this time of trying to transition. I'm now at a very low point now in my life.

I think, on the whole, the list has many unrealistic expectations.   Sex and partnership, for example, might be alot more difficult than you think. 

I have seen many TGs have the surgery, thinking that their romantic opportunities would expand.  ALL of them were disappointed.

I don't know how relevant my experience may be (if at all) because I never identified as "boy" and after puberty had considerable difficulty passing (as a boy). I knew what I wasn't (boy) but I didn't know what I was as girls went off in one direction and boys in another and I was just "freak".

After my liberation (age 24) I was just amazed how easy and natural life was as "all girl" - I didn't have to think about how I acted, how I spoke, or anything else - just being me and uninhibited - and nobody batted an eyelash.

Expectation: I didn't have any, I was clueless.
Reality: As comfy and easy as a well-worn slipper.

I transitioned in my fifties and did most people I know in this community. Little is easy and natural for those who lived the bulk of their adult lives as men, soldiers, Marines, businessmen, career pilots, fathers, and sons. Coming out at 55 can be daunting. You have to unlearn a life of "learned" behaviors

Quote from: xsocialworker on September 30, 2009, 08:43:24 PM
I transitioned in my fifties and did most people I know in this community. Little is easy and natural for those who lived the bulk of their adult lives as men, soldiers, Marines, businessmen, career pilots, fathers, and sons. Coming out at 55 can be daunting. You have to unlearn a life of "learned" behaviors

I never lived any of the the type of lifestyles you have listed above xsocialworker. I always lived a lifestyle to suit my personality and female persona which was as androgenous as I could get within the bounderies and being in a rock band was the easiest way to do it for me. I didn't have to 'unlearn' anything but that still didn't prepare me for the disappointments that lay ahead when I started transitioning full time at 39, although I had dabbled with hormones on and of since I was 24. Now 10 years later and 10 years into transition I wasn't prepared for the limitations of HRT and transition in general. I thought I was good material as I was always taken as female when I was younger and had a fairly feminine facial features.

But the reality is HRT hasn't done what I expected. I didn't grow breasts and only have a small amount of breast growth which someone could get if they were on the beer every night. I also haven't got the right fat distribution and if I try and put on weight it doesn't go on my hips. Surgical interventions are the only option but I don't have the cash or finances at the moment. Many do not face up to the realities and prefer to ignore it but I see what I see and most endo's agree with me on the limitations of HRT if you are over 12 years of age and past puberty.

Woah!  Looks like reality is across the board!  The positive reviews came first, with the naysayers arriving later in the thread.  "Kind of a build up your hopes and dash them upon the rocks of reality" thread.:)  Guess it serves to highlight the fact that everybody is unique and will react(mentally, physically, emotionally) in their own way.

Yes - I'm sorry I didn't number my points.  I guess I wasn't expecting a direct response to each of them, but that is awesome that I got some!  Chloe, Janet, and Becca's posts fill me with hope that there is a better way for me - something better than the drabness that envelops me.  It's like there should be more to this experience, and it's not there right now.

Some direct replies:

Chloe - I hadn't thought about men being upset if I exceeded their expectations.  I suppose it's because in some respects, I still expect men to regard women in the same way I do.  Which is obviously different from a purely male perspective - I like inpdepedant women, and feel great admiration and respect for them.

Janet - you crack me up, girl!

Alyssa - You're right.  I realized that after I compiled the list.  My original goal was to write down my expectations for how womanhood would feel internally, but it's difficult for me to separate the social aspects from my own internal feelings.  I base much of myself on my own assumptions of the expectations of others, so that's what I naturally gravitated toward while I was writing.  Transitioning for me is about the accurate expression of my soul and feeling at home in this body, rather than correcting a birth defect as other people have described it.

Kate - "I am far more relaxed and feel I have little to prove.  Therefore I finally feel that I can just be myself.  (And if you don't like it, so what?)"  That would be awesome.  I am so tired of competing.  I always feel like I need to prove myself, especially around men.  It's like I'm playing this game with them, trying to be a winner, but really I'm playing it against myself - they're not even cognizant that they are doing it.  I just want to be satisfied with being me, and not being the best or not "hiding every chink in my armor".

Naturally - sounds like your focus is on the physical effects of HRT.  I'm sorry that things haven't worked out the way that you had hoped.  It would be important to me to have something to work with to pass as a woman - hips, breasts.  But I'd be happy with enough differentiation between my waist and my hips to notice, and a B cup.  I think that is realistic.  I don't expect to have the body of a college girl, as wonderful as that would be!

Virginia - my relationship prospects are pretty low as things are.  Sure, I could find a girlfriend as a man, but that's not what I want.  By the end of my last relationship, things were becoming mechanical - I was filling a male role again.  I need to experience something more.  And I know that something more is out there.  And I know "she's" out there.  Maybe the "she" I've always looked for is me transitioned, but hopefully she's a woman who accepts me for who I am(or will be) beyond the flesh.  And if it takes me a while to find Ms. Right, then it will be worth it once we are together.

You girls are awesome.:)

Calliope,

I'm not so sure its a "build them up and tear them down" sort of thing, as just a good balance of differing individuals expressing sometimes contradictory viewpoints. The world would be pretty darn boring if everyone looked at everything the same way, imo.

In my own case, I had different expectations.  Not better, not worse, just different.  And I really do have those two complaints, lol.

Womanhood *is* a matter of social expectations -- try defining womanhood positively (that is, without referring to what women are not) without relying on how a woman is to others.  This is what is meant by the concept of a gender role -- its not how you see yourself, but how that plurality of others see you.

So being a woman is intrinsically tied to how others see you, and in particular, how others that interact with on a personal level see you.

That time when you cease to care?  It comes.  It's a hard journey, but always a worthwhile one.  You'll know you've reached it when another transperson calls you a man and you don't care.

For what its worth, I think your expectations are notable -- but don't be disappointed if they aren't met -- one of the ways that my expectations were different is that I had exceedingly few to start with -- I was strictly concerned with getting into my own skin instead of living outside it.

Be yourself -- and enjoy it.

Quote from: calliope on October 02, 2009, 08:25:16 PM
My original goal was to write down my expectations for how womanhood would feel internally, but it's difficult for me to separate the social aspects from my own internal feelings.  I base much of myself on my own assumptions of the expectations of others, so that's what I naturally gravitated toward while I was writing.  Transitioning for me is about the accurate expression of my soul and feeling at home in this body, rather than correcting a birth defect as other people have described it.

Calliope,
Some (many?) of us seem to concentrate on the external – HRT, surgery, voice, clothes, mannerisms, etc. – but for me it has become a way to find myself.  While the externals are important, and I couldn't have gotten to this point without them, they have become just the means to search for that creature I am and always have been and may become. 

It seems that hardly a day goes by that I am not delighted by being Kate.  That has nothing to do with wearing a bra or getting my nails done; it is because of how people react to me and how I am learning to fit into the world.  As Dyssonance said, part of who and what you are is defined by your daily interactions with others.

I've been going through some old things I've been hauling around for years.  I'm finding that those old objects that represent different aspects of me at different times in my life are starting to make sense.  I'm tossing some things out and keeping others, but perhaps for the first time in my life I can see who I am.  I don't think I'd ever have gotten here without attempting transition.

Good luck, sweetie.  The sun will rise tomorrow to a better day.  And it won't look anything like you think it will today.  ;)

- Kate

QuoteWhile the externals are important, and I couldn't have gotten to this point without them, they have become just the means to search for that creature I am and always have been

Thanks Kate, I've been trying to find the words for that sentiment. I'm sure we can agree that the focus on the physical is self perpetuating, the more you actually 'feel' like her, the more you want to look like her. It's hard to explain and I think difficult to really be prepared for. It's less of an idea of cosmetics and more of an idea of identity, and it seems really challenging to keep in perspective.

I have been around other transpeople before and they couldn't tell I was born differently before in real life. My body language and all flows as it should.

Caliope! Thanks for bringing this topic up. I've heard it said that it is the question that matters more than the answer.
But, first, hi! I'm not a 'regular' here but I like to stop by now and then. What compelled me to reply is #4. I'm beginning to get the impression that the gg lesbian community is a little more stand-offish than I expected. Perhaps more than a little. That, I find, is a bite of reality that isn't too easily swallowed. But, on the upside, I don't feel out of place in that 'field of endeavor'. I came across an interesting and somewhat relevant article titled
"Seven Great Myths Among Us (MTFs)"
http://articles.urnotalone.com/3991 (http://articles.urnotalone.com/3991)
one of which is "Myth #7: After surgery I can get involved with regular straight men.".
where she said (and I bring this up because I think it also applies to gg lesbians): "...once you tell them you've had a sex change, it's like telling them you still have a penis."
I hope I'm not stirring the pot too much here. Granted, MTF's are perceived differently and unfortunately that difference is not especially interesting to what is beginning to seem like a LOT of gg lesbians.
I haven't met enough bi-women to know if this (perceived) difference is appealing to them as a group. I'm inclined to think so but the jury's still out.
Anyway, good to hear how others are finding post-op life to be. It's only just a year for me.
All my best...
Miranda

Quote from: Tetra on September 27, 2009, 02:55:59 AM
I am pre but I already know a lot about what you expect and the truth; A lot but not all of T-Girls expect to get sexy womanly curves and to be blazin'--But the thing is, their diet and exercise is still that as of an man.

Once you "become" a "woman", you have to change your diet and exercise, because if you eat like most typical men do and watch TV all day like typical not all men, then you will be heavier quicker!

So a lot of T-Girls end up gaining a lot of weight...

In some ways I've made my diet worse in order to gain weight! I really want those hips. Granted, I still keep an eye on potassium intake and such...but I'm kind of a pig sometimes >_>;

Hi, Calliope...I'm a late comer, AND new here...but can I chime in?  I promise it won't be ALL negative.

Okay...here goes...

QuoteCalmer, less aggressive, less anxiety interacting with people

OMG, this one is loaded.  Yes and no, but in me I've become more thoughtful in interactions.  Less aggressive, too..yes.

QuoteWomen will accept me as one of them - more girl talk, more fluid conversations(because I don't need to be concerned about revealing too much of my feminine personality)

That's an unrealistic expectation.  You have to BEHAVE like a woman before you're taken into the fold by ciswomen.  You have to be socialized, and sweetie, that doesn't happen over night.

QuotePeople will not be weirded out by my fem mannerisms, speech patterns, or body language

If you're "over the top" with the actions, they will be....

QuoteLesbians will consider me as a suitable partner(at least, alot more than do now!:P)

NOT so!!

QuoteEmotions will intensify - cry more, happy more, feel more

You'll have more depth to your emotions.  What emotions you have now that are dominant will remain so, but will get bigger.  That's a big deal, you have to learn to control that.

QuoteMore concerned with my appearance

If you're like me and hated your appearance as a male, but really care about how you look in your proper role - yes, you will be. 

QuoteStraight men will be more attracted to me, men in general will expect less from me - more impressed when I exceed their expectations

What?  Men are men.  If you want to be an object, they'll oblige you.

QuoteFeel more vulnerable(physically and emotionally)

It depends on the time of the month...seriously.

QuoteLook in the mirror and be happy that I have this body and that I'm me

Maybe!

QuoteFeel sexier, more attractive

Again, maybe!

QuoteMore difficult to orgasm, but more intense(waves, tinglies, multiple)

Thee is no sure fire answer to that one....trust me.

QuoteBecome more communal oriented

Where did you arrive at that notion?

QuoteFeel a closer bond to my lovers(women)

See "more depth to your emotions"...

QuoteExpected to wear makeup, jewelry, accessories

Absolutely not so!!!

QuoteExpected not to work on my car or house, or eat a big plate of ribs, etc - to be "girly"

Not so, either.  You're a person, you'll do what you do and like what you like.  You can't switch that off.  It doesn't attract "negative" attention, either.

QuoteBe scroned by men as a "dyke", talked about behind my back by women

Why do you think that?

QuoteSmoother skin, less body hair, less shaving

Absolutely, yes...but FACE shaving will be the same.

QuoteCloser affiliation with my body, more self-confidence

Why would that change?  It didn't for me.

QuoteMore jiggly - more hips, more chest, less tummy/shoulders

Oh, my!  Yes and no.  Structure is what is, bone, and that won't change.  Some people get hip widening (especially if you're young), but no one looses bone, as in chest width and shoulders.  You WILL loose muscle mass, a lot of it (I have about 50%, perhaps less, of the upper body strength I had as him).

I hope my experience(s) have been helpful!

Hugs~~~~Sara Lynn

Quote from: sarals on October 11, 2009, 07:52:47 PM
  You'll have more depth to your emotions.  What emotions you have now that are dominant will remain so, but will get bigger.  That's a big deal, you have to learn to control that.

More depth - I like that.  I think of it of as having far greater range.  Through my life I have usually been a fairly happy person.  Now I am often bordering on ecstatic.  I also get a greater range the other way that I didn't have before, but I recover more quickly from the low spots than I used to.  I'm more volatile.  But I don't know how much of all this is from really being a woman and how much is from finally being allowed to be the woman I always was.  (If that makes sense. :P)

And the hell with controlling it.  I've controlled my emotions far too long.  The world will just have to accept me as the emotional person I am.

- Kate

I'm skeptical about this 'more depth to emotions' things.  I went to a therapeutic boarding school where people dealt with a lot of really traumatic and emotional things (sexual assault, molestation, drug abuse, domestic violence, sketchy abortions, it goes on), both guys and girls, and I didn't find that one gender was more emotional or more in tune with emotions than the other.  The environment of the school was very insular and set up to be a safe place to deal with the kinds of emotions that come up when dealing with those kinds of things.  I think the world in general, or at least the US since thats my personal experience, enforces a societal norm that men should be more emotionally restrained than women, but when put in an environment that doesn't have that restriction (such as the boarding school) the norm falls away.

Now I realize most of us here on the forum live in 'the world in general', but I just wanted to say that I don't think that particular item is intrinsic to 'being a woman', based on the above experience.

Ketsy, you are probably right. 

Perhaps I am far more volatile because the wraps are off.  When I lived in the cage, I had to control myself.  Now that I am free to be me - a woman - I am free to express my emotions.

And I love it.  There is no way I am going back into that cage.  And that is why I am not willing to constrain my emotions.  I see that as part of the caged me. :(

So perhaps it is based on freedom rather than gender.  (And, you are right, in US society women have more permission - freedom - to express their emotions.)

- Kate

Kate and Ketsy, hi!

"Depth to emotions".  What that means, to me at least, is not just that I am no longer restrained emotionally.  It is that there is "more there to what is there" emotionally.  My emotions are bigger and more powerful, amplified, over what they were when I was a male.  The problem with that is that the emotions that were big in me as a guy are even bigger as a female.  Impulsiveness.  Exuberance.  Vulnerability.  I say they needed to be controlled because they became so powerful that they could be overwhelming.  I had a difficult time with them, and early on in my transition they got me into trouble more than once.  I've finally learned how to deal with them, not to dampen them, just to be aware what they can do to me and act accordingly.

I really like having the shackles off.  It's not just that being a woman allows me more leeway socially in so far as emotional displays, it's that they are easier to reach.

Of course, YMMV....

Always a caveat!

~~~~Sara Lynn

Hey, Sara.  I'm glad you posted your comments, even if they do give me a bit of that old sinking(read: reality setting in) feeling.  The responses to my original post really have been all over the board.  I wasn't really requesting specific feedback to my own expectations, but kind of fishing for others to post their own expectations and if they found them to be met, not met, or fulfilled beyond their wildest dreams!:)  It comes back to the original philosophical question that I posed: until you do something, can you really know if it feels the way you expect it to feel?

I wanted to clarify a couple things from my post, since you did ask some questions, and comment on some of your responses.

You're probably on to something with the socialization.  I may still find myself as an outsider due to the masculinity in my personality and my sexual orientation.  Some of the women that I work with though are definitely head strong individuals, so it makes me wonder if it's a matter of finding the right crowd to jive with.  As it stands now, I am most definitely an outsider presenting as a male to them.

I have to believe that more lesbians would be interested in me if my body were female.  Of course, not all, but my chances increase significantly the more feminized I am.:)

My understanding is that women tend to have a communal-oriented mentality, where as men are competition oriented.  For example, a group of women would strive together to create an environment of peace to raise their children in, whereas men would compete with one another until they arrived at a "pecking order" with the alpha male dishing out instructions on how the clan will survive.  Kind of extreme, generalized examples, but that's the best that I can come up with right now.  I've heard about this before, but the point was pressed home for me when I read "The Chalice and the Blade".  Excellent book.

I could use some more emotional depth, hopefully some emotional breadth will come for me as well.  It seems like there's few emotions that I can actually identify.  Emotions feel so muted for me, and half the time, it's like I feel nothing at all.  Numb to it.  Watching the world move by me and I'm another set piece in it.  Another cog in the machine.  It would be great to feel like I'm involved in it and have some sort of emotional response to events, beyond anxious, excited, and sad.:P

I believe the average male would find a dyke(like me) to be off-putting.  Myself, I've always admired them and been jealous of them.  I'm not so certain about the average woman's response to a lesbian - assuming that she isn't extreme in her presentation, would any of you girls relate differently to her?  I know I've had a few gay guy friends over the years, and I don't think I treated them any differently.  I guess I wrote that women would talk about me behind my back, because that's what many women tend to do about people they don't like.  Good friends when you're with them, stab you when your back is turned.  I say that not only because it has happened to me, but because I've seen different women act that way to other gals.

I'm hoping that after I transitioned, I would actually enjoy having my body.  I would feel connected to it more than I do now.  Care about it more.  As it is now, I see it as...material that I can use to build a female body.  Seriously.  The only way I can care about it is looking at it that way.  It's like I don't have respect for it as a male body.

My "less shoulders" comment really needs some clarification.  I had read one book by a gal who found that when her upper body muscle decreased, her shoulders dramatically decreased as well.  I suppose that's a major YMMV thing, but I'm hoping for some of that.  My shoulders are garishly broad as they are now.  It creeped me out when my mom or wife would point that out to me.  Uck.

Anyway, probably more than you ever wanted to know about my situation, but thanks for posting, Sara!  It's great to here each person's experience.  The breadth of the responses is more proof for me that our experiences truly are unique to each of us.

The realty is.....HRT didn't work for me. I tried almost everything and I look physically the same as I did pre HRT. Sorry to be so downbeat but I have been very disappointed after 12 years of transition.

Quote from: calliope on October 13, 2009, 09:16:02 PM
Hey, Sara.  I'm glad you posted your comments, even if they do give me a bit of that old sinking(read: reality setting in) feeling.  The responses to my original post really have been all over the board.  I wasn't really requesting specific feedback to my own expectations, but kind of fishing for others to post their own expectations and if they found them to be met, not met, or fulfilled beyond their wildest dreams!:)  It comes back to the original philosophical question that I posed: until you do something, can you really know if it feels the way you expect it to feel?

Hi, Calliope!  Thank you.  I most assuredly wasn't intending to rain on your parade.  As you postulated, how can you really know if something feels the way you expect it to until you try it.  Well...exactly.  YMMV!!  We're individuals, and you can't box up something so huge as transition in a tidy way and pronounce 'this is what will happen'.   Not in a million years.

You have good perspective.  That counts for so much.

One quibble....I really don't think you'll loose shoulders (I know NO ONE who has), BUT the loss of upper body mass does make your shoulders look smaller.  That goes a loooooong way!!

Hugs, girlfriend! ~~~~ Sara Lynn

I've known some women with pretty broad shoulders - mostly women who swam competitively at one time.

I don't know about the insider/outsider thing.  That probably depends a lot on you.  I had been accepted by women as a kind of strange guy; now I have been admitted to the club and absolutely love it.  But then I'm not lesbian.  I'm still heterosexual, even though now I'm looking at from the other side (which I think is really weird :P).


Each of us is such an odd mix of gendered and un-gendered attributes.  I think just the experience of transitioning will change you regardless of the gender issues.  It's really hard to know what to expect. 

Expect the best.  Be ready for the worst.  Be happy with the result.

- Kate

Reality:
If you begin transition older (35+) you more than likely will always be seen as trans.
If you transition younger (under 35) you have a real chance of being seen as female, and going stealth.
I am brutally honest about this.  I would not recommend transition for anybody over 35 who wants to be seen as female.

Quote from: sweetstars on October 14, 2009, 09:28:41 AM
Reality:
If you begin transition older (35+) you more than likely will always be seen as trans.
If you transition younger (under 35) you have a real chance of being seen as female, and going stealth.
I am brutally honest about this.  I would not recommend transition for anybody over 35 who wants to be seen as female.

I think on the whole that's very true. But you do get odd exceptions where a 50 year old looks amazing and a 24 year old looks like a bloke. I don't think it's always such a fine line. Obviously the best age to transition is about 12 but even with my best efforts it was a difficult thing for me to implement in 1972. 

Quote from: sweetstars on October 14, 2009, 09:28:41 AM
Reality. I would not recommend transition for anybody over 35 who wants to be seen as female.

And that's why I keep coming here, to be told it's pointless, consistently reminded that I am less, and not to bother hoping for a better life.

I started hrt a while ago at 33 and it's becoming clear there will be no blending in for me. When you people get in these long drawn out arguments about this, in your effort to be "right" do you consider where your correctness leaves those of us who have to choose between transition and death? I don't mean to be melodramatic, but come on, who is it hurting if we have to fool ourselves a tiny bit to get through the day? Is it really that important to be right? Do you really think we can't see the lines on our face, our shoulders, our bone structure? I don't need brutal honesty, I'm no moron. I need whatever lie gets me through the day to keep from opening my wrists. Maybe this just isn't the place for that anymore.

Quote from: sweetstars on October 14, 2009, 09:28:41 AM
Reality:
If you begin transition older (35+) you more than likely will always be seen as trans.
If you transition younger (under 35) you have a real chance of being seen as female, and going stealth.
I am brutally honest about this.  I would not recommend transition for anybody over 35 who wants to be seen as female.

That isn't "reality", that's your own opinion.
That's not "brutal honesty", that's your own opinion.

And honey, to be brutally honest, you obviously don't know what you're talking about and should avoid making such misinformed, sweeping generalizations.

I've seen gorgeous women that pass 100% who transitioned in their forties and fifties. And I've seen unfortunate women, who have a hard time passing, who transitioned earlier in their lives.
It's not so cut and dry as pre-35-transitioners pass, others don't.

Oh and just so you know, they're all seen as female by everyone they care about, even the ones that don't pass all that well amongst strangers. So no, you don't even have to pass to be seen as a woman.

Quote from: sweetstars on October 14, 2009, 09:28:41 AM
Reality:
If you begin transition older (35+) you more than likely will always be seen as trans.
If you transition younger (under 35) you have a real chance of being seen as female, and going stealth.
I am brutally honest about this.  I would not recommend transition for anybody over 35 who wants to be seen as female.

Really?  That may be true for some.  I'm 57.  I started HRT 20 months ago.  I do panel speaking with an LGBT speakers group, and I have to convince people that I am trans.  I've had no surgeries, just HRT.  Yes, YMMV of course, but for me, I look like the gender I (should have been born to) am.  I should give my stats to go with my avatar, I guess.  I'm 5'4", 128 pounds.  Size 4.  Some of us "older trans people" DO have a chance of passing.  I'm one of them, and I know there are others.

Quote from: sweetstars on October 14, 2009, 09:28:41 AM
Reality:
If you begin transition older (35+) you more than likely will always be seen as trans.
If you transition younger (under 35) you have a real chance of being seen as female, and going stealth.
I am brutally honest about this.  I would not recommend transition for anybody over 35 who wants to be seen as female.

And who is to say that ' I really could care less about your opinion, if I am trans or not".  Just because younger transitioners have an easier time of it, does not mean that we ( older girls ) are not finally happy.

'Judge not, Yet thee be judged',  sound familiar?

If I could have been strong like Northern Jane or Matilda, I too would be one of the girls that made it.  But until you know me or my reasons, Do not judge.

You are lucky, I was not.  Nor were many of us.  Please do not judge me, because I was not the type of person YOU think I should have been.

I am working towards the person I always was, but I did not have the strength to be.

Don't judge that which you do not know.


Janet

Damn!  I wish I knew about the 35 over/under rule.  It could have saved me a lot of time.  :D

How does that saying go?  Something about not being disappointed if your expectations aren't too high?  Maybe it should be reasonable instead of too high...

I told my therapist I'd never transition because I'd never pass.  What she didn't know was my idea of passing was looking something like a Victoria's Secret model.  :eusa_doh:  I went ahead and transitioned and I pass but I still haven't heard from VS about the photo album I sent them.  ::)   

Women come in all shapes and sizes.  There are a few that society idolizes but most are just accepted as women.  If your heart tells you this is what you must do to be at peace with yourself, then do it and don't worry about what the world will think.  Unless you're over 35!  :eusa_naughty:

Julie

I was 38 when I started transitioning. I worried that I wouldn't pass, but have zero issues now - naked or clothed. I just met a girl whose older sister transitioned when she was 20. Totally passed then, but now, in her 50s, apparently doesn't come close.

As much as age plays a huge part of your chances at looking pretty, it doesn't necessarily play as large a role in whether or not you pass. I managed to luck out in both aspects, despite my years...

Kate, I think you're a bit closer (and yes, Becca, be true to yourself)... but as for "Before 35 you will see yourself as female"... well, again, I think that's too broad a generalization. I see myself as nothing but a female, despite the age I transitioned at. And I'm actually considering modeling....

I just noticed this thread, and scanned over the responses. I didn't care for the generalization about age, and am a bit surprised at that, but then again, only other Ts have ever been the ones to say/do anything hurtful to me.

Only. Ever.

I got burned a few years back, and tell my straight friends (which is pretty much almost all my friends) that this is a catty, competitive scene. I wish I could say it's one grand sisterhood, but it's not.

OK, my circumstances....55, pre-op, on HRT for 4 and a half years. Transitioned now for two and a half years.

1. Calmer, less aggressive, less anxiety interacting with people.
        Oh, for sure, I was terribly awkward as a male, and I think people picked up on that. I'm so much more confident now, and like people much more than I used to, which was pretty much not at all.
2. Women will accept me as one of them - more girl talk, more fluid conversations(because I don't need to be concerned about revealing too much of my feminine personality)
        Some, are like that. This is something that depends on circumstances.
3. People will not be weirded out by my fem mannerisms, speech patterns, or body language
        I haven't had any problems yet.
4. Lesbians will consider me as a suitable partner(at least, alot more than do now!:P)
        I'd like that, but I haven't really tried to pursue a relationship.
5. Emotions will intensify - cry more, happy more, feel more
        A definite 'yes' to that. My range of emotions is so much wider now.
6. Calmer, more patient, and move loving to my daughter - less irritable
        Most of the time.
7. More concerned with my appearance
        This was always a concern with me, so it's not new.
8. Straight men will be more attracted to me, men in general will expect less from me - more impressed when I exceed their expectations
         Don't know, I need to be more social. I get hit on in those stupid online chat rooms. Not looking for a guy, really
9. Feel more vulnerable(physically and emotionally)
         Especially emotionally. I've met at least one "fake friend" in this scene.
10.Love myself
          I love the new me.
11. Look in the mirror and be happy that I have this body and that I'm me
          I'm happier all the time about that.
12. Feel sexier, more attractive
          Yes.
13. More difficult to orgasm, but more intense(waves, tinglies, multiple)
          Yes, it's a totally different, more satisfying feeling, even for this pre-op girl.
14. Become more communal oriented
          Eh.
15. Feel a closer bond to my lovers(women)
           I'll let you know if that ever happens.
16. Expected to wear makeup, jewelry, accessories
           I work with PhD's and attorneys who dress comfortably, there is no pressure on me to meet any dress code, etc. If I come in wearing my heels and a dress, it's to please myself.
17. Expected not to work on my car or house, or eat a big plate of ribs, etc - to be "girly"
          Well, I've changed my eating habits out of necessity, I gain weight where I never did before. However I have been known to be under my car in leggings and a t-shirt on at least one occasion in my old neighborhood where everyone knew my circumstances.
18. Be scroned by men as a "dyke", talked about behind my back by women
          No, don't think so.
19.  Smoother skin, less body hair, less shaving
           Yes, thank goodness.
20.   Closer affiliation with my body, more self-confidence
            Yes, getting better all the time.
21.  More jiggly - more hips, more chest, less tummy/shoulders
             Working on that. I'd like some of the jiggle in one place to be re-deposited in other places : )

Quote from: sweetstars on October 14, 2009, 09:28:41 AM
Reality:
If you begin transition older (35+) you more than likely will always be seen as trans.
If you transition younger (under 35) you have a real chance of being seen as female, and going stealth.
I am brutally honest about this.  I would not recommend transition for anybody over 35 who wants to be seen as female.

Oh I don't think so... I'm 58 and passing is not one of my issues. EVER. Cause I always pass.

Maggie

Quote from: Maggie Kay on October 14, 2009, 05:44:12 PM
Oh I don't think so... I'm 58 and passing is not one of my issues. EVER. Cause I always pass.

Maggie

YES SHE DOES!!!  I know Maggie, and I can say that with complete certainty!

Quote from: K8 on October 14, 2009, 03:47:22 PM
But everyone treats me as the woman I am becoming

I'm having a similar experience Kate, but there is no doubt in my mind people are just being polite to me. This whole transition thing is supposed to be temporary, not a long term way of life; and I'm struggling to figure out how to go on if the telltale physical stuff doesn't fade. I can manage a decent voice, and behavior wise I think I could assimilate pretty well...but with male markers burning through it's no good. I guess 8 months is nothing in the long term, but I understand what sweetstars was getting at and it really scares me.

Quote from: Becca on October 14, 2009, 07:04:45 PM
I'm having a similar experience Kate, but there is no doubt in my mind people are just being polite to me. This whole transition thing is supposed to be temporary, not a long term way of life; and I'm struggling to figure out how to go on if the telltale physical stuff doesn't fade. I can manage a decent voice, and behavior wise I think I could assimilate pretty well...but with male markers burning through it's no good. I guess 8 months is nothing in the long term, but I understand what sweetstars was getting at and it really scares me.

Becca, I assume you're talking about HRT?  Here comes the blanket "YMMV", but truly, 8 months is NOT long.  Most say you'll start to see maximum effects at around two years, and things just keep improving from there.  SRS can cause even more physical changes than just the obvious.  Give yourself a chance, keep going.  You look wonderful in your avatar, so I'd say at 8 months you're off to great start!

Hugs!  ~~~~ Sara Lynn

Quote from: sarals on October 14, 2009, 02:24:23 PM
Really?  That may be true for some.  I'm 57.  I started HRT 20 months ago.  I do panel speaking with an LGBT speakers group, and I have to convince people that I am trans.  I've had no surgeries, just HRT.  Yes, YMMV of course, but for me, I look like the gender I (should have been born to) am.  I should give my stats to go with my avatar, I guess.  I'm 5'4", 128 pounds.  Size 4.  Some of us "older trans people" DO have a chance of passing.  I'm one of them, and I know there are others.

You say you are a size 4? a size 4 in what? do you mean size 4 feet? In your photograph you look fairly well built.

Quote from: Naturally Blonde on October 15, 2009, 06:38:07 AM
You say you are a size 4? a size 4 in what? do you mean size 4 feet? In your photograph you look fairly well built.

I'm a size 4 pants, small blouses and tops...my feet are 7.5 womans.  I am NOT fairly well built!  36/27/37, A cup, that's it... 

Quote from: sarals on October 14, 2009, 07:27:28 PM
You look wonderful in your avatar

Thank you, I had just eaten a mouse and finished a saucer of french vanilla creame. Fantastic diet for good fat redistribution and all 8 boobs are coming along great  :-*

Quote from: Becca on October 15, 2009, 12:39:24 PM
Thank you, I had just eaten a mouse and finished a saucer of french vanilla creame. Fantastic diet for good fat redistribution and all 8 boobs are coming along great  :-*

You pass beautifully!  Are you really a ciskitty trying to pawn yourself off as trans??? ;)

Quote from: sarals on October 15, 2009, 10:18:18 AM
I'm a size 4 pants, small blouses and tops...my feet are 7.5 womans.  I am NOT fairly well built!  36/27/37, A cup, that's it...

Obviously American sizes differ from those in England, U.K and if you were a size 4 in the U.K you would be seriously underweight and a size 8 would be classed as very small here. The average female size over here would is a 12.

Quote from: Naturally Blonde on October 15, 2009, 08:44:17 PM
Obviously American sizes differ from those in England, U.K and if you were a size 4 in the U.K you would be seriously underweight and a size 8 would be classed as very small here. The average female size over here would is a 12.

Obviously they differ!  They do in shoe sizes, too.

US sizes vary from maker to maker as well.  Some maker's dresses size 4 fit me perfectly, others I need a size 6.  That's why there are changing rooms in clothing stores.  "Measure twice, cut once".

Over here I am considered petite and small framed, but well proportioned.  I am very similar in size and shape to many ciswomen.  I don't want to hazard a guess as to what the predominant womens clothing size is here, but I feel I fall right into a common size range.

Quote from: sweetstars on October 14, 2009, 09:28:41 AM
Reality:
If you begin transition older (35+) you more than likely will always be seen as trans.
If you transition younger (under 35) you have a real chance of being seen as female, and going stealth.
I am brutally honest about this.  I would not recommend transition for anybody over 35 who wants to be seen as female.

I am a bit slow to this thread, but really under 35 what a load of rubbish. Anyway we transition for ourselves not becasue we make cat walk models, its gender dysphoria for goodness sake not a model competion. Anyway that said, I am 51 and started transition 2 years ago and have been on HRT for 18 months. My fat distribution is good, breast growth is 36b and my shoe size is now 7 was 8 and dress size 12. I wear a bikini to the beach and I work full time and I am stealth. At least I was until this post, lol. Some may disagree but I have been convinced that some gg has been transsexual but on talking to them and getting to know them they turned out to be gg's.

Just as men come in all shapes and sizes so do women. Truth be told if I was asked if I would have FFS I think I would as there are a few things I'd like to tidy up, but as far as the body no.
I have said it time and time again on Susan's that it is all down to genetic make up and how many estrogen recptors you have even as male. Obviously this is the same in females, that's why there is so much variation, big and small. I kind of sucks that here on Susans it seems that it becomes a kind of competion of who looks or passes better than others. Yeah it matters to me if I pass but I didn't start transition thinking I will pass so I will become a woman, I started because I looked over the dark abyss of death and the only way to overcome my dysphoria was to transition rahter than take my life.

Forgot to add that I jog every day (or at least every day except when I'm working a long day and then I just fall a sleep when I get home, lol).

Sorry for rambling, so come on girls and guys hope, love and charity.

Stardust

Quote from: sweetstars on October 14, 2009, 09:28:41 AM
Reality:
If you begin transition older (35+) you more than likely will always be seen as trans.
If you transition younger (under 35) you have a real chance of being seen as female, and going stealth.
I am brutally honest about this.  I would not recommend transition for anybody over 35 who wants to be seen as female.

Interesting quote.  What is the parameters for starting transistion you think?

I started hormones 6 months prior to my 35th birthday so guess ifs thats the standard i'm fine......

Quote from: sweetstars on October 14, 2009, 09:28:41 AM
Reality:
If you begin transition older (35+) you more than likely will always be seen as trans.
If you transition younger (under 35) you have a real chance of being seen as female, and going stealth.
I am brutally honest about this.  I would not recommend transition for anybody over 35 who wants to be seen as female.

I noticed the person who posted this hasn't had the balls to come back into the forum and answer all the angry messages in reply to the over 35 tansitioners tag. But I do think they also have a point and I've seen many in the Transsexuals in the supermarket and  about town and you know straight away they are trans. But I don't think it's an age thing, it would be more to with their physical build, heavy make up and bad choice of clothing but they could be any age. Some over 35's look stunning and some younger transitioners look unconvincing and vice versa and the opposite could be said. But Sweetstars doesn't seem to understand or take on board the struggles and heartache people go through to try and achieve their goal and many are unable to reach that point of complete passability in all situations, I would say I don't and it is very distressing for everyone in the same position.

I think the best time to transition is pre-puberty but most of us never had that opportunity even though we felt we needed to transition much earlier, for what ever reason it wasn't possible. I grew up in the 1970's and wish I grew up in the 2000's which would have been more beneficial as attitudes have improved. I started taking the pill at 24 and I was 38 when I started HRT full time but I didn't get the right fat distribution or breast growth I wanted and I do find it upsetting. I'm still looking for ways of funding a solution to effect these changes but even without the right fat distribution I don't get perceived as trans. So whatever I'm doing right I'm grateful for that.

Older transitioners don't have to deal with mating urges as the young do.  We aren't constantly being sized up as hot young chicks by a hormonally driven sexually active male.  No, instead, older transitioners are viewed as grandma types and dismissed without too much scrutiny.  So I maintain that it is easier to pass later.  I don't know about others here but I don't go around wondering what is under the clothes of grandma or a middle aged woman.  Never did. 

I agree that there are younger transitioners can't pass and these gals have it much harder.  They get sized up constantly by peers and are compared to the sexual stereotypes that our insane society puts out there as a standard of beauty.  Not only that they are in a social group driven by sexual interactions.  That is a lot of attention with some very harsh potential consequences for failing to pass.  While I dearly wish that I could have transitioned decades before I did, I'm not sure how well I would handle life as a transsexual in the mating game.

Maggie

Quote from: Maggie Kay on October 17, 2009, 11:33:21 AM
Older transitioners don't have to deal with mating urges as the young do.  We aren't constantly being sized up as hot young chicks by a hormonally driven sexually active male.  No, instead, older transitioners are viewed as grandma types and dismissed without too much scrutiny.

I don't know Maggie.  I stuck my finger in the estrogen bottle and...
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3255%2F2871948317_e06a316a61.jpg&hash=cba358b17cdbc087c9a066af735390736160e36f)

;D

Julie

Thanks, Julie...  that photo is exactly what I think I look like in the dark, in my bed under my blanket, half asleep...  ;)

Then I turn on the light and I see this old woman there. Isn't that amazing how light can do that?

Now, you've done it. My mating urge got resurrected from the dead.  ;D

What am I going to do now? :'(

Maggie

...

cougars!

*giggles and runs into hiding*

Hey! I consider cougar to be a compliment but I doubt they would consider me one.  I'm too old even for that moniker...

Maggie

This reminds me of the line in a movie about women over 40 (maybe 35?) being invisible in society. This was said by one woman while she was showing another woman how easy it was to shoplift at that age.

Quote from: Miniar on October 17, 2009, 03:49:46 PM
... cougars!

Why thank you!

I am 60 and have a date tomorrow with a 43 year old who has been pursuing me for some time. I finally gave in and said yes.

---

Post Merge: October 17, 2009, 08:27:32 PM

---

Quote from: Maggie Kay on October 17, 2009, 11:33:21 AMWhile I dearly wish that I could have transitioned decades before I did, I'm not sure how well I would handle life as a transsexual in the mating game.

If you had transitioned decades earlier you would not be "a transsexual in the mating game" but simply a young woman in the dating game.

Oh, good heavens!  I would love it if someone would call me a cougar!  Now, if only they would...

Quote from: NikkiJ on October 17, 2009, 08:06:41 PM
This reminds me of the line in a movie about women over 40 (maybe 35?) being invisible in society. This was said by one woman while she was showing another woman how easy it was to shoplift at that age.

LOLS!!!!!!
aaawwwwww. :-/

Good Gawd, Julie Marie......I would say I wish I could stick my finger in your estrogen bottle, if it made me look like that , but....
It would sound so utterly WRONG!......LOL......

Bev

Quote from: calliope on September 26, 2009, 12:47:31 PM
Calmer, less aggressive, less anxiety interacting with people - Possibly at times.

Women will accept me as one of them - more girl talk, more fluid conversations(because I don't need to be concerned about revealing too much of my feminine personality) - winning team always accepts its players :)

People will not be weirded out by my fem mannerisms, speech patterns, or body language - true

Lesbians will consider me as a suitable partner(at least, alot more than do now!:P) - heh, perhaps not... i hear some run a mile at trans.

Emotions will intensify - cry more, happy more, feel more - deffinately

Calmer, more patient, and move loving to my daughter - less irritable - haha, not at times!

More concerned with my appearance - perhaps.

Straight men will be more attracted to me, men in general will expect less from me - more impressed when I exceed their expectations - Not always. some men expect MORE of females in certain aspects, and no, they wont be more impressed. welcome to the world of 'twice the effort, a quater of the thanks.'

Feel more vulnerable(physically and emotionally) - maybe.

Love myself - thats not a female thing.

Look in the mirror and be happy that I have this body and that I'm me - perhaps

Feel sexier, more attractive - perhaps

More difficult to orgasm, but more intense(waves, tinglies, multiple) - not likely.... the kit isnt that authentic yet sadly.

Become more communal oriented - Perhaps, but unlikely

Feel a closer bond to my lovers(women) - wouldnt know about females.

Expected to wear makeup, jewelry, accessories - Not expected, but can.

Expected not to work on my car or house, or eat a big plate of ribs, etc - to be "girly" - haha, got to be joking..... Women have been emancipated you know?

Be scroned by men as a "dyke", talked about behind my back by women -uhuh

Smoother skin, less body hair, less shaving - mm yes and no :P legs are a pain.

Closer affiliation with my body, more self-confidence - possible

More jiggly - more hips, more chest, less tummy/shoulders - possible, but shoulders/ skeleton doesnt tend to change really.



I had no real expectations, I've taken life as it comes, and my experience is limited so far... im just a college student. However, One thing I have noticed that people here seem to miss, is women are just like men, only... not. We're all human, and imo its largely a house with the golden windows scenario..... whats far away looks better/different.  Perhaps its easier to see what you expect before hand, the reality is .... reality.

Tomorrow will be my sixth mensiversary as Kate.  I started full-time six months ago.  I saw my therapist today, so it seemed like a good summing up time and I thought of this thread.

I am happy now.  I used to be a generally cheerful and optimistic person, but now I'm a happy person.  I thought becoming Kate might make me happier but didn't know it would make me a happy person.  (If that makes sense. :P)

I thought I would be more relaxed by being more open with my friends.  I didn't realize that I would also be more open with myself.  I am far more comfortable with myself now.  I understand better who I am and accept myself better. 

I find I don't have to compartmentalize my thoughts and feelings.  I am becoming whole.

I am far more comfortable in "guy" situations.  I was always awkward because I knew I wasn't doing it right.  Now I can wiggle when I walk and wave my hands around when I talk and fluff my hair and be silly because I'm not a guy.  (I can also be more ballsy than I ever managed as an ersatz guy.)

Along the same lines, I can just be myself.  I don't worry anymore about whether I'm "doing it right."  I just am who I am.

For much of my life I've lived through others.  I always had a best friend and would relate to others through that best friend.  And then I was married, and my spouse was my best friend.  Now I can relate to people directly without that intermediary.  Kate is out of the cage and facing the world head-on.  (And she is fully up to the task. ;))

My therapist said in the beginning of this I would talk about how others saw me but now talk about how I see myself, which may be similar to the above.  But it also means that I see myself as a woman now, where before I would wonder whether others saw me as one.

The changes are both dramatic and subtle.  I didn't expect most of them, or may have expected them but certainly not to this extent.  After all, it is hard to fully envision freedom when you've lived all your life in a cage.

- Kate

I have been having a pretty stressful time at work over the last few weeks.   Trust this to happen as the hormones kick in!   

My emotions are in the blender at the moment.   One moment I am as happy as Larry, the next I am bubbling lke a baby.   I have had issues with with depression in the past and I am determined not to have such issues again.   I just keep reminding myself that what is happening is natural as my brain chemistry adjusts to the new hormone balance.   To be honest, I am glad that I am experiencing more than physical changes and my transition is making me a woman both emotionally and physically.   

I know the danger signs of depression and have spoken to my boss and made her aware of my past issues.   I am prepared to take some time away from work and to call on my counsellor if I feel I am heading in that direction.   I have also been given some techniques by my counsellor if I feel things are getting too much.

On a happier note, my appearance and confidence to express the real me to the world is growing everyday.   I am hopng that this is an exponential curve and that every small change I see or feel will have an ever growing strenthening to my overall wellbeing.   I have been more and more able to act in a more feminine manner.   I have a better relationship with other women and feel much more comfortable chatting and gossipping.   I am not out at work yet and I am sure that the girls believe I am gay.   I know I am soon to reach a point of no return, where it is impossible for me to hide the changes, and I will have to come out of the closet at work as well as in my private life.   I am sure it will be a shock to many and I know people's reactions will vary greatly.  I am also lucky to have an employer who has a very positive policy to the LGBT community.

After a long conversation with a girlfriend, I thought of another unexpected outcome:

I am a LOT livlier.  (And I love it. ;D)

- Kate

You girls have taken my thread and ran with it.  Too cool!  Lots of stuff posted since last I checked in.  The big one would have to be the post with the over/under 35 rule.  What a crock.  It really depends on the woman.  Maybe a study could be done that would give us statistics on how passable, if such a thing could be measured, a gal is if she starts HRT before or after a certain age, but that would only be a statistic.  It could be used for risk assessment, but it wouldn't necessarily be reality for a particular woman.  It comes back to, "you don't know what will happen until you try it."  I agree with she who said, and I paraphrase, "It's not a choice between passing as a woman or living as a man, it's a choice between living as a woman or not living."  I don't see my case being as extreme as such a choice, so at this point I'm going to try the androgyny thing for a while and see if I can be at peace with myself at that point.  If not, then I move on to the next level.  I guess that's sort of a good way to bring this thread back around - HRT and transition are still in the back of my mind, but they're not my immediate concern.  I'm taking smaller slices of the transition at a time now.  I'll start by working on changing my presentation from male to more androgynous(and most everyone thinks I'm a closet case anyway, so I won't have to worry about people beginning to think that, since they already do!) - take care of the facial hair, dress and accessorize more in-between, and get acquainted with the LGBT community in the area.  I have to credit my therapist with that last one.  I went to my first trans support group meeting on Sunday.  Wow - that was a big step.  Admitting to a bunch of strangers that they may see a male, but there's really a female looking back at them is oddly not one of the most anxiety producing things I've ever done, but definitely one of the most difficult things to simply admit.  I knew they would accept me, but forming the words and looking them in the eye as I did it - I'm proud of myself.:)  What I wanted to say though was that there were women in attendance that transitioned in their forties that were completely passable.  Even their voice and laugh was well done.  I think some people might notice that there might be something a little different about them, but I can't see people immediately jumping to the conclusion of "she was born a he".  That's a pretty big stretch of the imagination for most people.  I have to admit though, the transmen in attendance - extremely convincing.  They make it look so easy - they take the T, and off they go!  Lucky bastards.>:I  Just goes to show you that women have it more difficult, even in transition!

hai calli  :-*

That sounds like a cool group!

Quote from: calliope on October 27, 2009, 09:33:55 PM
<snip>
What I wanted to say though was that there were women in attendance that transitioned in their forties that were completely passable.  Even their voice and laugh was well done.  I think some people might notice that there might be something a little different about them, but I can't see people immediately jumping to the conclusion of "she was born a he".  That's a pretty big stretch of the imagination for most people.  I have to admit though, the transmen in attendance - extremely convincing.  They make it look so easy - they take the T, and off they go!  Lucky bastards.>:I  Just goes to show you that women have it more difficult, even in transition!

Good for you on going to the support group, Calliope!

I know many trans women, me among them, who do not cause people to assume they were born male bodied.  Two cases in point:  Most of the people at my work place have known me since before my transition.  The people who arrived after I transitioned didn't know or even suspect that I *was* male bodied at one time until I told them (I'd rather they heard it from me).  Secondly, I tried out for a role in the Vagina Monologues last week, and NO ONE at the audition knew or suspected that I was trans.  No one at all.

I transitioned at 55.  YMMV, but really, you stand a good chance of being yourself no matter your age.

Quote from: sarals on October 28, 2009, 12:01:40 AMI transitioned at 55.  YMMV, but really, you stand a good chance of being yourself no matter your age.

:eusa_clap:  Well said!

I waited until I was 57, thought I'd never pass.  I was wrong!  Even the 2-TS rule doesn't apply, which I was told was a virtual absolute.  I've even broken the 3-TS rule!

Expectations that are reasonable should result in a favorable reality.

Whatever the mind can conceive and believe, it can achieve.

Julie

I have a lingering issue from the 35 passing comments.  One younger gal said that the older gals just think they pass and people like her can read us instantly.  This got me to thinking about my situation.  I say that I pass all the time.  What I think though may not be the truth.  What if other people see masculine features in me but because they aren't out looking for transsexuals, they dismiss it and give me the benefit of the doubt?

It would follow that as time goes on people I repeatedly come in contact might figure it out.  If I go to the same restaurant time after time, will the staff finally figure it out?  Will my mail lady who chats with me all the time eventually figure it out?  As time goes on eventually I'll slip up in some way that tips the balance and I am read. 

So I wonder just what passing really means.  Passing as a stranger in a one time situation is one thing, passing in repeated contact is an entirely other manner.  Then what happens?  She could think,"I know her/him well enough so it doesn't matter" or "OMG, she is a man. I better alert the neighborhood to this pervert."   I am a not pervert but that is what the uninitiated think because of the Jerry Springer effect. 

Will passing become more difficult as society becomes more aware of transsexuality?  Will we no longer be given the benefit of the doubt as more and more religious organizations focus on us because of ENDA?

I don't believe that I should pass as well as I do so this makes me wonder what is going on.  If I am right, I'm not sure what to do.

Maggie

Think you're right maggie... frankly, the people that say they can read ts, are just reading masculine features, i garuntee 90% of thier 'dead certs' are just natal women.... hell, my best friend got it once from a ts... and shes not! shes gorgeous, but tall.... some people lol

Maggie, you're being too hard on yourself.  Don't let some silly comment haunt your thoughts.  For all you know someone may not like your dress or your shoes.  Would that matter?  Everyone has something they don't like.  Thankfully most keep their opinions to themselves.  You are the only one hurt by lingering thoughts about who you are. 

Go out, be yourself and enjoy life.  Let the narrow minded, opinionated, phobic people ruin their own lives.

Julie

Quote from: Julie Marie on October 28, 2009, 01:58:35 PM
Maggie, you're being too hard on yourself.  Don't let some silly comment haunt your thoughts.  For all you know someone may not like your dress or your shoes.  Would that matter?  Everyone has something they don't like.  Thankfully most keep their opinions to themselves.  You are the only one hurt by lingering thoughts about who you are. 

Go out, be yourself and enjoy life.  Let the narrow minded, opinionated, phobic people ruin their own lives.

Julie

Julie,
I am sensitized to the issue because just after we moved into our new neighborhood, over a year ago, the next house became a christian outreach center focusing on Hispanic gang members.  So we see several new faces of young men coming and going as some are apparently allowed to live there.  Our household is from their perspective, two women living together, sharing a vehicle and being seen together.  It is not much of a stretch to them thinking we are lesbians. 

On a regular basis, they play some religious speaker doing one of those shouting style sermons and it is loud enough for everyone in the outside area to hear.  Inside the house, it must be almost deafening. 

Just recently, there was a new man in the midst of some of the other regulars. I am friendly and will return a greeting when they do so and most times that is all there is.  This one time, I got a look from this new guy that made my blood run cold.  They stand around working on cars or milling about outside and when I have to come out for the mail or to get in my van, they look at me.  It creeps me out.

So, when I speak about passing, I have this in the back of my mind.  I have been threatened before in a nearby town where I was sitting in an outdoor cafe and a passerby on the street said he was going to kill me.  I can't forget that even though I was not passable back then. 

My concern is twofold, repeated contact resulting in being read or some ability of the younger set to read. 

Maggie

Actually, I think it is easier for us older gals in that young people usually don't even give us a second glance.  (I know you're younger than me, Maggie.  I don't mean to imply that you are as decrepit as I am.)

Also, I think as people get to know someone, they question less.  (I had a friend with a rose birthmark around one eye.  Almost invariably, after someone got to know him they would forget about the mark and not even notice it.)

Your staring neighbor may be trying to puzzle out your living situation.  He may be all right with young lesbians – that's kind of hot to think about, y'know? – but two old broads living together is kinda disgusting. :P

- Kate

Set your mind at ease Maggie.... young transitioners have no easier time 'reading' anyone than... well, anyone.

As for the guy,... Men look at women. It's normal... It's probably more ethnic than gender... and a bit of 'ew teh gay' syndrome possibly? that or he fancies you :)

That sort, as you said, would be quick to say, as they havent .... take it as a good sign. Anyway, actually, the more time you spend with people, the more they see you, not a random by thier features. The more they know you... the more your image as a woman is cemented in thier mind. The less likely they are to see something... hear something in what you say? or do? sure, but if they dont work it out by your apearance pretty fast... the chances fall incrimentally.