Well in this day and age (at least in most of the metro areas) 'the girls' tend to have a couple of guys along, and 'the boys' almost always have at least one girl who made the club.  But they are different kinds of nights with different activities to be sure.

Quote from: DianaP on December 19, 2012, 08:41:08 PM
Wait, so are women catty or are they supportive? Make up your mind, woman! 

I hope that anyone who reads my posts on here will recognise that i try my best to be as positive, supportive and kind as possible. But, sweetie, if you're going to attack me, then I may just have to get my claws out.

The reason that women are catty AND supportive is very simple. Both those things are two sides of the same coin. Women's relationships with one another are much more emotionally involved than male friendships. Sometimes that's great, because women will support one another in ways men don't. Other times it's terrible, because women are judgemental about all sorts of things - looks, weight, clothes, life choices, parenting skills, etc - that men couldn't give a damn about. Both approaches have good and bad points, much like men and women themselves: that's why the world needs a balance between yin and yang.

My advice to you is to lift up your eyes from all those games, those comics and those science-talks on which you are currently wasting your time and do what women do, which is pay attention to real people and how they relate to one another. Try getting a life. And then, when you've learned a little bit about actual, live, breathing human beings, about whom you now appear to understand precisely nothing - not least that humans don't work like computers: they're not binary and they're frequently contradictory - THEN come and tell me I don't know what I'm talking about.

And now that I've got that out of my system, my normal, sweet-natured service will be resumed ... !

'Catty' and 'supportive' are not two sides of the same coin.  And while relationships might trend one way or the other (though I'm not sold on it) it's pretty easy to find (without looking too far), men who are very emotional, and women who are as emotionally distant and detached as the best of men every had to offer.  And while men are not as picky about clothes perhaps they tend not to like or respect men who are crappy parents and are not wild about other guys who are way out of shape either.  It's just that they don't talk it all over, or hash it out - they just exclude the ones they don't wish to have around.

Quote from: Carlita on December 20, 2012, 02:21:50 AM
I hope that anyone who reads my posts on here will recognise that i try my best to be as positive, supportive and kind as possible. But, sweetie, if you're going to attack me, then I may just have to get my claws out.

I wasn't attacking you. Plus, I have connections with my guy friends. I'm just saying that we have HOBBIES in common.

Quote from: Carlita on December 20, 2012, 02:21:50 AM
My advice to you is to lift up your eyes from all those games, those comics and those science-talks on which you are currently wasting your time and do what women do, which is pay attention to real people and how they relate to one another. Try getting a life. And then, when you've learned a little bit about actual, live, breathing human beings, about whom you now appear to understand precisely nothing - not least that humans don't work like computers: they're not binary and they're frequently contradictory - THEN come and tell me I don't know what I'm talking about.

I hope that was just you prove your point about contradictory natures, because that was mean. 

Quote from: tekla on December 20, 2012, 02:33:51 AM
'Catty' and 'supportive' are not two sides of the same coin.  And while relationships might trend one way or the other (though I'm not sold on it) it's pretty easy to find (without looking too far), men who are very emotional, and women who are as emotionally distant and detached as the best of men every had to offer.  And while men are not as picky about clothes perhaps they tend not to like or respect men who are crappy parents and are not wild about other guys who are way out of shape either.  It's just that they don't talk it all over, or hash it out - they just exclude the ones they don't wish to have around.

Hmm ... I don't want to have a big fight about this, and of course it's true that any generalisation is always open to counter-examples, but I don't think you would find too many people who would dispute the following propositions, all of which I would qualify with the preface 'on the whole' and the caveat that plenty of people diverge from them - like me, for instance. But anyway ...

Women are more interested in and take more time, care, trouble and money over their own appearance than men.

Women are extremely aware of how other women look - it is a cliché, but true to say that women dress for other women. They will notice the details of one another's appearance in a way that most men can't begin to grasp (an instant, forensically detailed analysis of hair, clothes, accessories, shoes, weight, etc. And they will comment on it, often very flatteringly, sometimes very cuttingly - and will see it as an area of competition in a way that most men don't.

When two female friends, acquaintances or colleagues see one another, especially at a social event, they will almost always make a nice comment about the other's appearance - noticing and complimenting a new haircut, asking, 'I love your dress/shoes/whatever, where did you get it/them?', or just saying how slim they look. Straight men are much, much less likely to do this, (a) because they often don't notice what their friends look like from one day to the next, (b) because they don't really care and (c) because they don't want to sound gay. [Personal note: I once forgot my 'act like a man' mantra and told the guy I was buying a car from that his shirt matched his eyes ... the look of pure horror on his face has been etched on my memory ever since!!]

Women exchange personal details when they meet, about themselves, their menfolk, their children, medical problems, the works. Men tend to assume that if the other guy seems OK and he's not volunteering information then he's fine, so there's no need to go into details. A basic scenario: guy comes back home after a drink with an old pal, let's call him Frank. His wife/girlfriend knows Frank and Frank's partner and kids. When her man gets home she asks him how they all are, expecting a proper answer. The guy shrugs his shoulders, 'Fine, I guess.' The women sighs at the absolute idiocy of men. The guy thinks, 'We had a good time. We drank some beers, saw the game. What's the problem?'

As it happens, men are perfectly capable of opening up about their emotions. I know, because that's what my conversations with my male friends are like. But as an old, old friend of mine, who knows about my dysphoria said (affectionately) when we were talking, 'Most of my friends aren't like you.'

Women's relationships, from their earliest girlhood are filled with very complex emotional and almost political undercurrents. The Byzantine intrigues that go on within girls' friendship groups - who's in, who's out: who isn't talking to whom; who's not been invited to whose sleepover, etc - have no real parallel in the much more straightforward interactions of boys. If you don't believe me, go talk to some women, particularly mothers who have daughters and sons and ask them how different the two are. Even in adulthood, women will 'drop' a friend in a much more active way than men will, just as they will rally round, support and reinforce their friends much more actively than men do.

As for the cattiness, women are just as competitive as men, albeit about different things. But they are powerfully socialised - not least by their mothers and female peers - to be nice, to affiliate with other girls/women and not to be overt in their ambitions. As a result, the very obvious fights and the ritualised sporting contests that are such a huge part of male lives are matched by much more subtle, underhand and, yes, bitchy interractions between women.

Plenty of people find these kinds of generalisations offensive on political grounds. Plenty of others think they're just obvious common sense. Either way, I would say that the sense that there are both biological (brain-chemistry, physiology, etc) and social/developmental differences in the way men and women think, behave and interact is becoming more, not less accepted within the scientific community.

And as a writer, I'd say it was the basis of a huge amount of the drama I see all around me and try to describe on the page.

Hi Carlita,

In answer to your initial question. The answer is unequivocally "Yes".

By the time HRT has taken hold and the aftermath of surgery is but a distant memory, you'll be just one of women in any group. Holding our own. Nobody any the wiser of your origin. Once all that intellect in your brain as traveled the necessary 6", from your brain to your heart, the rest is so easy, it's just so natural.

Develop your intuition and nothing can go wrong.

Be safe, well and happy
Lotsa Huggs
Catherine

Quote from: Catherine Sarah on December 20, 2012, 09:36:52 AM
Hi Carlita,

In answer to your initial question. The answer is unequivocally "Yes".

By the time HRT has taken hold and the aftermath of surgery is but a distant memory, you'll be just one of women in any group. Holding our own. Nobody any the wiser of your origin. Once all that intellect in your brain as traveled the necessary 6", from your brain to your heart, the rest is so easy, it's just so natural.

Develop your intuition and nothing can go wrong.

Be safe, well and happy
Lotsa Huggs
Catherine

What a lovely post! Thank you X

Women are more interested in and take more time, care, trouble and money over their own appearance than men.

While that seems true on the surface, it's only because it's based on the superficial most of the time.  That's your basic hair, clothes, accessories, shoes, - but men do notice the physical stuff, weight gain/loss, muscle tone, general health and fitness in particular because such a high value is placed (at least in American society - certain segments much more than others) on physical health, strength and stamina.  And they do put a lot of time, care, trouble and money into it, it's just done at a gym/sporting goods store more than a department store or hair salon.  It's not about 'the shoes', it is about how many miles you ran in them, how many points you put up in them, how healthy you are when you wear them.

Men are not socialized to exhibit less emotion, but rather to control it, channel it, and master it.  Emotion is a powerful force, if you work it right, otherwise it's useless, and in many cases dangerous and destructive.  Girls in your way of thinking hurt each others feelings with emotions, men tend to start wars with theirs if left unchecked.  I think it's that drive to use it that fuels so much of what men do in a physical/creative sense - building, making, creating.  Perhaps it's why there are quite a few other male 'Mozarts' but as of yet no outstanding female Mozart.  Civilization does seem to ebb and flow based more upon what men are doing with their emotions as opposed to what women are doing with theirs.

So, yeah guys tend not to play the political/emotional games - who's up and who's down in popularity - it's more straightforward - are you in, or are you out?  And once that decision is made it tends to stick.  You say that women rally round, support and reinforce their friends much more actively than men do, but the group - as opposed to women who tend far more to the individual - does that for men, frequently in some pretty remarkable ways.

And the never ending alpha dog game takes the place of all those girl games, and it's true blood sport.  And the entire competition basis never really stops which is why so many fatal teenage male accidents begin with "hey look what I can do' and even when they get smart enough to cut that crap out the 'last one down buys' never fades away.  Or the power of the bet, which seems to sway men far more then women.  It's not the 'thing' you win, it's the winning, the 'thing' is just proof/reward.

But I'd submit that it's every bit as emotionally devastating for the boys who are left out, excluded, culled from the herd and that.  (its' also often physically dangerous, something most girls don't face)  For the boys (who become men) who don't 'fit in' and find that group/gang/crew/tribe^* they really belong to it not only isolates them, but I think it has an incredible power to also cut them adrift mentally and morally.  Those guys who do the school/theater/mall shootings, whats' the first thing you know you can say about them?  Yeah, they were loners.  And rarely is that by choice, it's far more due to popular acclaim - it's not that one person really dislikes that person (unless it's the Alpha, and even then...) it's that no one in that group likes that person.  It really does a number to their heads, as almost any newscast will demonstrate.  Even the guys who might join up with the more marginal crews - the stoners, the bikers - don't seem to exhibit that anti-social behavior later.  The totally unpopular girls don't seem to end up with a rifle in their hands like the males do, though I have no theory as to why, I just know it's worse for boys.

And, socialization depends on society, ie. your socio-economic group as well as geography.  So not all girls and boys grow up in that way.  Upper class women seem to have no problem in being highly ambitious, nor do poor ones.  That seems a very narrow middle class deal.  And I guess that's my problem with most of these kinds of posts and threads, they tend to be almost hysterically stereotypical and retro at that.  They deal only in the vaguest of generalizations missing any and all nuances that fall outside the confines of the stereotype.  Yet, if you look at the world you find very few who fall into that retro stereotype anymore.  I think most of that comes from the scripted universe, not the real one.

That transfers to the issue of being 'one of the girls' as if all groups of girls are somehow interchangeable and uniform.  I do very well with professional women because I don't have an issue with smart ambitious women, (who BTW, exhibit very few of the behavior patterns you describe).  And I also do very well with women who are more at the margins in terms of lives and lifestyles (biker babes, construction worker girls, others seen as more on the fringe than mainstream like artists, rockers, people engaged in illegal activities and those like my friend Polly Pandemonium who are just natural born boundary pushers - the outlaw girls), they have no issues or problems with me, nor I with them.  We go shopping together because we have similar tastes and budgets, and because I'm pretty good at shopping in that way - more of a general hunt for everyone then the 'we're going to buy one thing, and one thing only' shopping style that lots of men often idolize.   Either way, it's about adapting yourself to the group first and foremost.

Groups of people, be they men, women or mixed tend to accept people like them, and exclude those who are not.  And that's not as much 'look like us' (though to a degree that's also true), but act like us, value the same thing we value and play by the same set of rules and guidelines we like to play by.  So if the group is into 'sharing conversations' then you'll be accepted if you share along with everyone else, and excluded if you seem to be stepping on it - or worse, trying to solve everything.  You know if winning ain't all that much to you, if its' something you don't personally prize then it's highly unlikely that the jocks (male or female) are going to like you, and/or vice-versa.




* - I do think that men have it better in that they have more options, I think for girls (pre-college) it's "The Popular Girls" or "Not Popular Girls" they don't have a huge range of groups/gangs/crews/teams to choose from.

"Can we ever be "one of the girls"?

No probably not OP, if they know we're trans then they might be nice and treat us like other women but will never truely see us as "one of the girls" but tbh I don't care if they do or not. 

Quote from: Carlita on December 20, 2012, 02:21:50 AM
I hope that anyone who reads my posts on here will recognise that i try my best to be as positive, supportive and kind as possible. But, sweetie, if you're going to attack me, then I may just have to get my claws out.

The reason that women are catty AND supportive is very simple. Both those things are two sides of the same coin. Women's relationships with one another are much more emotionally involved than male friendships. Sometimes that's great, because women will support one another in ways men don't. Other times it's terrible, because women are judgemental about all sorts of things - looks, weight, clothes, life choices, parenting skills, etc - that men couldn't give a damn about. Both approaches have good and bad points, much like men and women themselves: that's why the world needs a balance between yin and yang.

My advice to you is to lift up your eyes from all those games, those comics and those science-talks on which you are currently wasting your time and do what women do, which is pay attention to real people and how they relate to one another. Try getting a life. And then, when you've learned a little bit about actual, live, breathing human beings, about whom you now appear to understand precisely nothing - not least that humans don't work like computers: they're not binary and they're frequently contradictory - THEN come and tell me I don't know what I'm talking about.

And now that I've got that out of my system, my normal, sweet-natured service will be resumed ... !

I sympathize with much of what was said in this post and agree with the overall message in it. 

Much of what trans people believe about males and females comes from the perspective of existing as the wrong sex and hypothesizing or by observation and speculation.  The only way to know how females experience life is to actively 'be' one of them, not by redefining the female experience to fit a GD or gender dysphoric model. 

I remember back when I was early in transition, I believed that because I had always been female "M2F", therefore I already knew everything about being female.  There was nothing anyone could tell me about being female because I believed I had always been one.  Later on I realized I was suffering from a type of narcissism caused by ignorance and necessity, i.e. the experience of not being female or GD, gender dysphoria.  I have noticed that same experience in others, one of rejecting a more active experience of being female (or the mere idea of it) and of taking insult, based upon the supposition that one has always been female, therefore her experience is already perfect.

What I later realized was that I had the seed of "female" planted deep inside of me but I was like a seed that had never tasted water or earth (was not growing) and as time went on I was withering away (dying) - being denied all the experiences of a female life.  Women who transition often spend vast amounts of time and effort trying to legitimize their desire for transition by claiming to already be female.  They remember the past and use events in the past to demonstrate how they have always been female, i.e. supposition - they already are female.

What happens in my own experience and in what I have observed of other M2Fs (friends I have known in the past) is that they spend so much time telling themselves that they have always been female that they begin to believe it and it begins to take the place of actually being female.  Eventually they tend to get to the point where they believe they are so female that the experience of actually being female becomes ludicrous to them, i.e. "How dare you insult me I have always been female!" When in fact being female 'is' an experience (not an assertion) and in fact an experience they have been denied all their lives.

Claiming to have the experience of being female and actually experiencing being female tend to be two entirely different things when it comes to M2Fs yet the distinction is seldom ever made or even recognized which is especially ironic since claiming the experience of being female typically comes in the form of a protest, i.e. "I need to be female, recognize me as such!" Or "This is why I need to transition!" And "How dare you be skeptical of my experience of being female!" But because through repetition we come to believe whatever we assert is true ignorance tends to become reinforced.  In my own experience the only way to overcome such emptiness is through actual experience because the actual experience of being female causes the more typical experience of one's asserting she is female to pale by comparison so that it can be recognized as the substitute it is.

Also transition is really simple stuff.  And transition is easy to do step by step.  But getting up in one's own head can be an endless can of worms.  To someone who is in the process of transition I would say feel free to completely ignore everything I say, but maybe keep it in the back of your mind for later.  To those who feel accomplished yet are uncomfortable with what I am saying I would suggest asking questions of yourself.  As in why does what so and so says upset me?  What is it about my own experience that seems to have a volatile reaction when it comes into contact with O_O's statements?  Or you can simply dismiss what I say, either choice is yours.  ^_^ 

There are two ways to achieve success, one way is to create a harmonious system.  The other way is to live in harmony with the way a system already is.  Typically we tend to fall somewhere between the two points but on average most people tend to underachieve and only move slightly past their point of origin.

Quote from: girl you look fierce on December 21, 2012, 05:11:51 AM
I don't really understand, of course an MTF woman can be one of the girls, it's not like they have a chromosome detector

This is undoubtedly true, but remember this famous quote made about women in general

"Women are not born, they are made." - Simone de Beauvoir

Even GGs have to work at it.

Quote from: O_O on December 20, 2012, 09:00:33 PM

I sympathize with much of what was said in this post and agree with the overall message in it. 

Much of what trans people believe about males and females comes from the perspective of existing as the wrong sex and hypothesizing or by observation and speculation.  The only way to know how females experience life is to actively 'be' one of them, not by redefining the female experience to fit a GD or gender dysphoric model. 

I remember back when I was early in transition, I believed that because I had always been female "M2F", therefore I already knew everything about being female.  There was nothing anyone could tell me about being female because I believed I had always been one.  Later on I realized I was suffering from a type of narcissism caused by ignorance and necessity, i.e. the experience of not being female or GD, gender dysphoria.  I have noticed that same experience in others, one of rejecting a more active experience of being female (or the mere idea of it) and of taking insult, based upon the supposition that one has always been female, therefore her experience is already perfect.

What I later realized was that I had the seed of "female" planted deep inside of me but I was like a seed that had never tasted water or earth (was not growing) and as time went on I was withering away (dying) - being denied all the experiences of a female life.  Women who transition often spend vast amounts of time and effort trying to legitimize their desire for transition by claiming to already be female.  They remember the past and use events in the past to demonstrate how they have always been female, i.e. supposition - they already are female.

What happens in my own experience and in what I have observed of other M2Fs (friends I have known in the past) is that they spend so much time telling themselves that they have always been female that they begin to believe it and it begins to take the place of actually being female.  Eventually they tend to get to the point where they believe they are so female that the experience of actually being female becomes ludicrous to them, i.e. "How dare you insult me I have always been female!" When in fact being female 'is' an experience (not an assertion) and in fact an experience they have been denied all their lives.

Claiming to have the experience of being female and actually experiencing being female tend to be two entirely different things when it comes to M2Fs yet the distinction is seldom ever made or even recognized which is especially ironic since claiming the experience of being female typically comes in the form of a protest, i.e. "I need to be female, recognize me as such!" Or "This is why I need to transition!" And "How dare you be skeptical of my experience of being female!" But because through repetition we come to believe whatever we assert is true ignorance tends to become reinforced.  In my own experience the only way to overcome such emptiness is through actual experience because the actual experience of being female causes the more typical experience of one's asserting she is female to pale by comparison so that it can be recognized as the substitute it is.

Also transition is really simple stuff.  And transition is easy to do step by step.  But getting up in one's own head can be an endless can of worms.  To someone who is in the process of transition I would say feel free to completely ignore everything I say, but maybe keep it in the back of your mind for later.  To those who feel accomplished yet are uncomfortable with what I am saying I would suggest asking questions of yourself.  As in why does what so and so says upset me?  What is it about my own experience that seems to have a volatile reaction when it comes into contact with O_O's statements?  Or you can simply dismiss what I say, either choice is yours.  ^_^ 

There are two ways to achieve success, one way is to create a harmonious system.  The other way is to live in harmony with the way a system already is.  Typically we tend to fall somewhere between the two points but on average most people tend to underachieve and only move slightly past their point of origin.

I, too, have always found it hard to accept the idea that we are already female prior to transition. If you have the body of a male, are raised and socialised as a male and treated as a male by everyone around you, then your entire life experience is markedly different from a cis-woman, who is raised as a girl. And when you're principally being affected by testosterone rather than oestrogen, your behaviour, as well as your body is bound to be masculinised. To me, much of the pain of dysphoria comes exactly from the fact that I'm not the female I profoundly know I should be.

To put it another way, I do not believe that I am currently a woman trapped in a man's body. But I can absolutely imagine becoming a woman freed from a man's body.

The seed analogy works pretty well for me.  It is like the seed of being female was planted in me.  Eventually after suffering for many years I realized the seed was withering away and it was going to die, leaving me with nothing to live for.  So I transitioned.  The seed could also be thought of as my soul perhaps or my essence.  Something I had to turn against in order to survive, something I had to deny and repress. The reality was I had been a dead husk for many years, the precious seed laying dormant inside of me was my only hope for a life.

Even when I tried to nurture the seed in private the overall picture was that I kept it locked away and denied it.  For a while I thought simply having SRS would be the answer but it was the experience of female socialization that I was starving for.  The living experience of being female.  SRS was easy, going full-time was terrifying.  I thought I would die but the truth was I had already been dead for many years.  The seed planted deep inside of me was what I had been holding onto.  It was the only part of me that had the potential for living.

I am familiar with the quote

Quote"Women are not born, they are made." - Simone de Beauvoir

but we aren't so much talking about the experience of being a woman as we are talking about the experience of being female.  And when I say 'experience' it is a word that is easily glossed over, unread.  But what I am talking about is profound, the 'experience' of being female.  What the transsexual woman has been denied all her life.  The motions of the female organism as she moves through life, body, soul and spirit.

(Nothing left out).

Being regarded as female on a sexual level, as a potential mother, as a girlfriend, as a wife or the opposite sex... (and all that stuff that we were denied).  All that stuff that other humans completely take for granted.

Sure, women are made as in, "Great women who have triumphed over adversity and given their lives for the good of others, mothers, grandmothers, pinnacles of virtue."  But if you want to prove to Society that females can be made from males... my experience has not proven that case in any way shape or form.  I have been accepted as female by many people, however none of them ever knew me as anything other than a female.  No one who ever knew me prior to transition has ever accepted me as female and I went full-time in 2005.

I have accomplished some amazing things considering I transitioned but those very accomplishments that have allowed me the living, breathing, body, mind and soul experience of being female on a sexual level would be used as evidence by those who knew me from before transition that I am just a man.  Funny how that works.

I keep remembering my last trip to Thailand.  I went there for a revision and some body sculpting.  I considered becoming an English teacher, really looked into it.  I will never forget the guy who was helping me by introducing me to someone who could hire me.  He kept telling me, "Be careful what you tell him, don't tell him anything." Like this guy was my friend and I could trust him completely but the guy he was introducing me to, I had to be cautious and not say too much."  It was a set up, then he worked into the conversation very smoothly... "So what is your real name?"  I was so used to people just realizing (by that point) that I was female.  I wasn't used to being torn apart by someone who viewed me as a lie or as a costume or as an act.  I thought that was only for people who knew me from before transition. 

But in my experience, the experience of being female will give you strength.  It will confirm for you that you are indeed female.  It will get you past difficult times and hard experiences.  Experience is how we come to know ourselves.  For average men and women it is about becoming men and women, for us it is about becoming male and female.

You most definitely can just be one of the girls after transition, I know this for a fact but it has never happened for me around people who knew I transitioned and I have no reason to believe it ever will but there was a time when I kept believing anyway, kept hoping, kept forgiving pronoun slips.  Not any more, life is too short to believe in such things.  I will leave faith in the hands of those who have the acquired taste.

Quote from: O_O on December 21, 2012, 10:34:54 AM
Sure, women are made.  But if you want to prove to Society that females can be made from males... my experience has not proven that case in any way shape or form.  I have been accepted as female by many people, however none of them ever knew me as anything other than a female.  No one who ever knew me prior to transition has ever accepted me as female and I went full-time in 2005.

Speak for yourself... my mother, my brother, and my sister have all accepted me as female. My mom has changed COMPLETELY in how she handles me. When I got emotional before, she didn't give a crap ("Ah you'll get over it"). Now, she is much more comforting ("No!! Honey you are very pretty!"). She apologized to me for the first time EVER (literally) for talking to me in a certain way, but when I was a boy, it was ALWAYS my fault. My brother holds doors open for me, helps me jump down from places so I don't hurt myself, along with other very subtle things like hugging lightly instead of man hugging me that men only do to other men. My sister will talk about all sorts of things under the sun to me with feminine issues, child raising, bad mouths men with me... etc. None of them give me the vibe that they're doing it just to humor me. I would think if they were, they'd probably avoid talking to me altogether to avoid hurting my feelings by accident (I know my family). Instead, they're always trying to get in touch with me, instead of the other way around.

I think being accepted as female isn't a result of being born with a vagina, it's just being accepted for who you are personally. When I saw my sister for the first time in 5 years, she told me "You make it so easy to see you as a girl. I was expecting it to be much harder than this." When I prodded her about it a little, she said "You just are (female). You aren't putting on an act. You aren't doing it for attention. You aren't over doing it. You just... are". She also said the voice helped too. From a mans perspective (my brother), it was tangible. "It's not like you changed much, you look and talk different. You're still pretty much the same person. But at least you aren't one of those annoying gay men dressing up like a girl." (and yes he know's I'm into men only). And this comes from a guy that once told me "I'm not going to let you (as a girl) around my children. I'm gonna raise them to be good ol' southern boys!" My mom is a little more awesome, she was like "I like you better as a girl!" And to be honest she doesn't really comment on it nearly as much. She is a very anything-goes kind of person.

I'll also add that none of them knew the slightest thing about what transsexuality is before I came out to them. I think that's significant to point out because it's not like they had an advantage of dealing with it before me. Yes, it took some time for all of them to come around, but in less than a years time (for all of them) they were completely accepting of me as a girl. A girl that can't give birth because she doesn't have ovaries.

It's seriously presentation. Presentation will get you further with acceptance than any advocacy, insistence (although that is a little necessary), surgery, or anything else. If you're overdoing it, people will see it as an act (which technically it is). If you're "not feminine enough", people will think you're not serious about it (unfairly and ignorantly).

And btw, I'm not saying men will automatically start going for you even if they weren't into trans women before. That's another social aspect entirely. I've found their big hangup with not sexually going for it is "How am I going to tell those around me". However, they still treat and talk to me as a girl even after knowing.

Here is a subtle example that I am accepted as one of the girls. I was talking with this woman I work with about random stuff (hormones, menopause, breasts, what men like) anyway, we got on the subject of hair. I mentioned that I have been growing my hair out for about 10 months and she said it should be longer. I told her it was very short, and pulled out my work ID that still has my old picture on it. She gasped! She said that she had completely forgotten that I was ever a boy. I have only been out at work since December 4th of this year.

Each and every woman and each and every man is a unique individual with unique experiences of what it means to be an individual woman or man.   In experiencing my identity as a woman, I am just one more individual woman in the mass of humanity who are women.   I really know only my experiences as a women which includes spending much of my life having been identified in that huge mass of humanity identified as men.

I feel, as a woman, in all reality there is no special way that life dictates that I need to feel to be a woman.   I am just a mixture of feelings struggling day by day to be more and more my female self, what ever that is.   Emotionally I feel that I jump from pillar to post emotionally and I grasp at this stereo type of femininity and then at some other stereo type of femininity.   But at 66 I am an older bitty, who just becomes, within the context of my place in the human life cycle, more effeminate in relationship to the stereo types formed from my life's experience.   

Has God appointed a gender inspection committee whose main duty is to define and determine who is a male and who is a female?   The Heavenly committee in charge of Common Sense has been labeling individuals male and female without any Divine Guidance.   For some reason the Soul Assignment committee has been assigning some female souls to male physical bodies and male souls to female physical bodies.

Then free will has been made one of the Divine Qualities of each and every soul.   Each soul has been assigned a physical body in the physical world and set free on their own unique 'Walk about' of self discovery and destined on a journey to get closer to God.   

Is this a realistic construct of our reality?   Who knows.    Are male and female self defining and every developing realities?

In the end we either define ourselves or we allow our fears, the depiction's of Hollywood, and the whispers in the  wind of "It's Common Sense!!!!" define us.   Or are we defined by a combination of both our selves and our society.

Who or what determines if we are accepted or not?

Quote from: O_O on December 21, 2012, 10:34:54 AM

Sure, women are made as in, "Great women who have triumphed over adversity and given their lives for the good of others, mothers, grandmothers, pinnacles of virtue."  But if you want to prove to Society that females can be made from males... my experience has not proven that case in any way shape or form.  I have been accepted as female by many people, however none of them ever knew me as anything other than a female.  No one who ever knew me prior to transition has ever accepted me as female and I went full-time in 2005.

Interesting you continue to totally discount the experiences of others here.

Clearly if someone is totally stealth and they hide their past from everyone by whatever means necessary (made up stories about their past etc), then of course they will be accepted as female. My experience and others here agree, being stealth, throwing away everything and created some fake past life isn't required to be accepted as "one of the girls". Clearly you imagine this not to be true given you have -committed- your life to being stealth.

As to why your position upsets people, how about if people said to you "you are just kidding yourself, no one really believes you are a woman"? Because that is exactly what you posted here to anyone who didn't follow your path. I have zero interest in doing what you did, making up some fake childhood, pretending my life before transition didn't happen etc.

I am not ashamed of who I am, but I really do get tired of this same elitist nonsense that stealth post-ops present on every trans forum I have ever been on.

Quote from: O_O on December 21, 2012, 10:34:54 AM

I wasn't used to being torn apart by someone who viewed me as a lie or as a costume or as an act.  I thought that was only for people who knew me from before transition. 

I'm speechless. I'm just glad my mind doesn't work like this..

Quote from: Carlita on December 18, 2012, 10:51:03 AM
Oh, don't I know it! I have two sisters and two daughters. I've worked in strongly female office environments and observed the way that my wife and her circle still play the same games of who's in and who's out that girls start learning when they're in their very first years at kindergarten. Women are judgemental about all sorts of things that men don't even think about, and their judgements are incredibly personal ... In fact, that's one of the reasons I asked the question, because I know how women can be. And, yes, like you I have my bitchy side as well! 

On the other hand, women are also much more supportive, more thoughtful, more active in maintaining relationships and more fun to be around. So that's why it matters so much to me to be considered part of that female-only club ...

You can have meaningful relationships with woman even as a man.

Idk why but I feel like there's a crapload of sex-based stereotypes in this thread, stereotypes that are made out to be oh so "cute" and frilly when in reality they speak volumes about the second class status females hold.

Quote from: Ave on December 21, 2012, 05:05:41 PM
You can have meaningful relationships with woman even as a man.

Thank you!

Quote from: Ave on December 21, 2012, 05:13:12 PM
Idk why but I feel like there's a crapload of sex-based stereotypes in this thread, stereotypes that are made out to be oh so "cute" and frilly when in reality they speak volumes about the second class status females hold.

I don't know about everyone else, but I was only speaking of the women within my own realm of experience.