Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on December 27, 2012, 08:13:42 PM
I'm kinda partial to Thor myself. At least he has a movie about him. 



But all kidding aside let's get back to the topic on hand, which really was about how it would really suck if there was no afterlife.

Kia Ora Shawn,

Why should this matter ? If there is no afterlife, you wouldn't be around to worry about there not being one ?

"Worry is to pay interest on trouble that might never come!"

Metta Zenda

It's probably most honest for me to describe my BELIEFS as agnostic while my PRACTICE is Christo Pagan Buddhist.

I reject utterly the concept of an afterlife of hell. But at the same time, I'm not entirely sure of what I believe with regards to an afterlife.

It seems to me that the Abrahamic concept of G'D varies depending on the Abrahamic faith: Judaism, Christianity, or Islam. Growing up Catholic I was taught that G'D is omnibenevolent. If that's true, there cannot be a hell and all of us will be in the same place at the end of things. But it's also the Catholic church's teaching of omnibenevolence that led to me leaving that church. It seemed they taught great love but encouraged a restrictive practice of it. Some were just "more equal than others."

Well then if there is no afterlife and no existence of God and it doesn't matter what I do I will just go and do this then:

Tsar bomba HD

Give me a few moments while i hack into the worlds computers and start having fun.

I have read/seen peoples accounts of being in hell, and these are people who died and came back. I am sure it is a lot safer to just chuck that all up to the brain playing tricks on you, but I am not taking that chance.

If the atheists are right and there aren't any gods/there isn't a G'D, there is no afterlife or before life, my practice will not change. Only the details would. Instead of worshiping my matron and patron deities, I would worship life/creation itself and continue to try to be the best person I can.

I will not be religious for some great reward.

I would die for him, and I will be glad when the day comes that someone kills me for being a Christian, if that ever happens.

QuoteJohn 15:13 No one has greater love than this, to lay down one's life for one's friends.

Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on December 27, 2012, 08:40:07 PM
Well then if there is no afterlife and no existence of God and it doesn't matter what I do I will just go and do this then:

Tsar bomba HD

Give me a few moments while i hack into the worlds computers and start having fun.

I have read/seen peoples accounts of being in hell, and these are people who died and came back. I am sure it is a lot safer to just chuck that all up to the brain playing tricks on you, but I am not taking that chance.

Kia Ora Shawn,

Only a person who is mentally unstable would do such a thing...Think about it...Who in their 'right' mind would want to destroy the planet...Bite the hand that feeds them....

Metta Zenda

Quote from: Constance on December 27, 2012, 08:49:27 PM
If the atheists are right and there aren't any gods/there isn't a G'D, there is no afterlife or before life, my practice will not change. Only the details would. Instead of worshiping my matron and patron deities, I would worship life/creation itself and continue to try to be the best person I can.

I will not be religious for some great reward.

Kia Ora Constance,

I'm an Atheist in that I don't recognise an absolute personal deity...But I'm not philosophically atheistic because I don't deny ultimate reality !

Metta Zenda

Sometimes I feel like my relationship with the Divine is similar to Conan's relationship with Crom.

"And if you do not listen, then to hell with you!"

Do I need gods? In this life, no. I need people. Gods are for later, but I maintain my practice. Again, not to assure I'll "be saved," but because I feel I gain some benefit in the here and now for my efforts.

Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on December 27, 2012, 08:58:32 PM
I would die for him, and I will be glad when the day comes that someone kills me for being a Christian, if that ever happens.

Kia Ora Shawn,

Surely to wish for something like that would be to go against your god's will...From what I gather your Christian god is meant to be kind, compassionate, loving, etc and wants you to be happy in life-not look forward to death....

Metta Zenda

Quote from: Zenda on December 27, 2012, 08:25:23 PM

Why should this matter ? If there is no afterlife, you wouldn't be around to worry about there not being one ?

This. 

If there isn't an afterlife, you're not going to care when you die.  If there's nothing there to worry then there's nothing to worry about. 

I don't believe that the afterlife is there to punish people or to reward people for things they do now.  I don't believe that if there was ever proof of no afterlife that people would start doing "bad" things.  People, surprisingly [/sarcasm], can do good things without religion or any sort of spirituality.  There are lots of wonderful Atheists out there who do great things and they [usually] don't believe in an afterlife or in any sort of higher being.

Religion or spirituality isn't needed to have a good moral compass nor is it needed to punish or reward people for good needs.  You just need empathy and the ability to not be a 'rude' person. 

To me, having something as awful as Hell is a means of subjugating the masses and making them compliant sheep the same with having a Heaven or any other sort of after world.  It also seems to want to make people look forward to death and to not try to fix the world as it is "God's will" or "there is a better place." 

[Note:  I don't really care what a person's belief is; it's their life and they can believe what they want.  I'm pagan with an emphasis on the Celtic and Egyptian gods with a touch of Buddhist ideals.]

Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on December 27, 2012, 08:40:07 PM
Well then if there is no afterlife and no existence of God and it doesn't matter what I do I will just go and do this then:

Tsar bomba HD

Give me a few moments while i hack into the worlds computers and start having fun.

That's actually a very prejudice viewpoint to have against Atheists. Matter of fact, many Christians uses this prejudice "belief" to bring Atheists down. It also shows me how weak minded a Christian is if they believe that they are capable of hacking people or killing people if their God didn't put them in check.

That prejudice belief is that if you don't believe in God then you are immoral or have no ethical value.

Well, I can tell you that I have met way more unethical Christians than I have met unethical Atheists. I have met more Christians who have a warped sense of morality or no morality than I have met Atheists with the same issue.

And the fact that a Christian believes that she or he is only capable to be morale and unethical by following Biblical law and rules scares the hell out of me. Jesus taught you should be moral, kind, and ethical because it's the right thing to do. It doesn't take a religious person to practice those. And Jesus proved that point by saying how immoral the Pharisees were and they knew the Bible backwards and forwards.

So I don't buy the argument "if you're not a religious or spiritual person then you are capable of killing people."

Oh....btw, the people who dropped the atom bomb were all Christians and three Jews. I just wanted to throw that out there.

And when you stated you read accounts about people being in hell....well those people are certifiable whack jobs. Mary K Baxter, "Divine Revelation of Hell" is one of those people. If you read that and even believed in 10% of what she said then I feel really bad for you.

Also, another whack job book is "He came to set the Captives Free."  Written by a drug addict former Doctor who suffers from Paranoia Schizophrenia (documented) who lost her license because she was abusing the anesthesia and forcing exorcisms from patients in a coma...she was caught having lighted candles in the coma patient's room and said Satan was making them sick. The State of Indiana revoked her Medical License and her ability to practice medicine permanently because she started telling patients that there were werewolves outside of the patient's windows waiting to drag them away for a human sacrifice.

And theologically, if there is a hell, if a person goes there they cannot come back and write a book about it.

I swear, fundamentalist Christianity is some scary stuff.

QuoteThat's actually a very prejudice viewpoint to have against Atheists. Matter of fact, many Christians uses this prejudice "belief" to bring Atheists down. It also shows me how weak minded a Christian is if they believe that they are capable of hacking people or killing people if their God didn't put them in check.

That prejudice belief is that if you don't believe in God then you are immoral or have no ethical value.

I never said that atheists  don't have morals, please don't put words in my mouth. I simply was pointing out that a person might be convinced to blow up the world, because it doesn't matter. However I know that people also feel like blowing up things because they feel God told them to do so. But I won't be blowing up the world anytime soon (and I pray we never do that to ourselves) because I know my actions would have everlasting consequences.

QuoteWell, I can tell you that I have met way more unethical Christians than I have met unethical Atheists.

And I have met more ethical Christians than I have met unethical ones.

The simple truth is that everything we do does matter. It does have a purpose.

Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on December 27, 2012, 10:55:24 PM


The simple truth is that everything we do does matter. It does have a purpose.

Kia Ora Shawn,

My original comment was why should it matter if there's no afterlife? After all it wouldn't 'matter to a piece of slowly decaying 'matter' ....

Metta Zenda

Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on December 27, 2012, 10:55:24 PM
I never said that atheists  don't have morals, please don't put words in my mouth. I simply was pointing out that a person might be convinced to blow up the world, because it doesn't matter.

When you wrote, "Well then if there is no afterlife and no existence of God and it doesn't matter what I do I will just go and do this then: (Detonate Atom Bomb)"

That's not me putting words in your mouth. When you wrote that, it gave me the impression that if there was no afterlife or no God then it doesn't matter if you kill people.  I mean...you wrote that...i didn't warp any words there. Many Atheists do not believe in an Afterlife or a God so based on your comment that if there was no afterlife or no God it is easy to kill people or hack people then it would be natural to assume that atheists are more capable to do these things.

QuoteAnd I have met more ethical Christians than I have met unethical ones.

Be a pastor in a fundamentalist church for 10 years and be married into a 5th generation fundamentalist church family. You'll see all the unethical behavior you want

*Christians voted for Slavery....used the Bible to prove slavery should be legal.
*The Virginia 1610 mandate had a law that if you missed church three times you are to be executed
*Christian Crusaders killed Jews and pagans on their way to the holy lands as target practice.
*The city of Beziers, France was completely wiped out because of some "heretics." Everyone died. The phrase, "Kill them all and let God sort them out" was coined at this event.
*More Christians than not voted against the Women Suffrage movement of the 1920s, citing The Apostle Paul when he stated women should be silent.
*Christians voted against the Black Civil Rights movement in the 1960s. Billy Graham wrote in a Alabama paper that he "wished Dr King would stop protesting and sit back down."
*Christians in North Carolina made it illegal in the 1960s from a white person marrying a black person, citing the book of Genesis.
*Christians in North Carolina made it illegal in 2012 from gays marrying. citing the book of Leviticus.
*Christian Pat Robertson stated that Feminists are lesbians who want to destroy Christianity
*Christian Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson blamed the 3000 deaths on 9/11 on gay people
*Pat Robertson blamed the tsunami of 2007 that killed over 200,000 people on gay people.
*Christian Psychologist Dr. James Dobson blamed the killing of the children in Newtown, CT on the Same Sex Marriages that were passed in the 2012 elections
*A Christian Judge denied me from seeing my three children until they are 18 because I changed genders.
*Westboro Baptist Church pickets the funerals of soldiers saying that God killed them because of the ->-bleeped-<-s.
*4 Black children were blown up in the 16th Street Baptist Church by Robert Chambliss, Herman Cash, Thomas Blanton and Bobby Cherry (elders and deacons of their own churches).
*Lutheran Deacon, Dennis Radar, was arrested in 2005 for the deaths of 10 people.

and on and on and on.  So I stand by my statement. Christians do some pretty unethical things.

QuoteThe simple truth is that everything we do does matter. It does have a purpose.

I agree with that

QuoteChristians do some pretty unethical things.

Yes they do, but so does everyone else. History is full of people doing stupid things to each other.

I am not one of those people who will be doing something that stupid, God save me from doing anything like that.

Annah.

I think you should be careful with these citations. They have been quite popular since the 60s, but the reality is, most are interpretations while many are simply not true. For example, Christians did not vote for slavery.

Small point perhaps, but some people think they Liberated the Freedom Loving People of Kuwait. But that doesn't make it true.

If the issue is, is there an afterlife? Then I would need to know what you mean by an afterlife.

If the subject is about conscious individuality, then there can be no answer. Those that make a pronouncement one way or the other are expressing a belief.

What have you done to better the life of others?

This is a question that every self-respecting human being should ask himself or herself. It becomes more relevant as you pass your early adulthood and become more cognizant of your own mortality. Life is not about yourself but about what you have done for others.

Your actions on this regard may dictate your fate in the afterlife if indeed there is an afterlife.

If there is no afterlife, then your existence did had a meaning: your brief positive journey through this earth was of consequence by having helped the lives of other humans, and by having contributed to the better life of future generations.

Just to summarize your two main points...

1) If we don't exist after we die, what it the purpose of doing good deeds?

2) If there isn't an afterlife, then there isn't a proper justice for people who do evil things.

Firstly, you are assuming that said afterlife is a place of reward or punishment. Secondly, that a god controls the afterlife.

God creates man in the beginning, and man is the most important creature on the planet according to Christianity. Man sins and is forced to pray for repentance while slaughtering innocent animals. Fast-forward, Jesus is sent by God to die slowly and painfully on a cross so that all of humanity can be forgiven forever.

By creating man, God is forced to think up a loophole in the free will equation. Which leads to another violation of free will involving absolute unquestioning belief and trust in Jesus Christ.

In effect, God created humans with free will so that they weren't robots made to love him; then he forces all humans to worship him or go to hell.

If any one thing is changed in this narrative, all basic doctrines are changed. And if Jesus died so that people wouldn't be separated from God's love, that isn't much of a sacrifice; couldn't God just forgive without all this killing? I don't have to kill anything to forgive someone, does that make me inherently better than God?

This isn't blasphemy, these are the logical consequences of believing in particular dogma + doctrine.

Or perhaps all of this is just a human way of perceiving God. Maybe we are twisting the truth to our own desires of reward and revenge.

All I ask is, What is more likely?

That god is illogical and paradoxical?

Or that God is extremely difficult for humans to understand?

Or that God does not exist?

I leave it to you...

With love and respect,

-Skye

Quote from: spacial on December 28, 2012, 08:00:10 AM
Annah.

I think you should be careful with these citations. They have been quite popular since the 60s, but the reality is, most are interpretations while many are simply not true. For example, Christians did not vote for slavery.

I have taken over 60 Credits in post graduate Christian history. 15 of those credits were in American Christian History. I don't whimsically throw out interpretations.

In the late 1850s, the North had a hard time defending themselves by stating Slavery was immorally wrong because the South had more Biblical references for Slavery than the North had Biblical references against Slavery. Christians did indeed vote to try to keep slavery enforced and cited the Bible in their legislation many times.

This isn't me pulling stuff from Google. This is from post graduate work at a CHRISTIAN Seminary being taught by some of the finest Christian professors (who have had experience in education at Harvard, Emory, and Yale) within Christian American History and working with the original materials.

Everything I wrote is true. Sorry if it makes you feel uncomfortable. Sometimes truth can do that.

Quote from: peky on December 28, 2012, 09:59:04 AM
What have you done to better the life of others?

This is a question that every self-respecting human being should ask himself or herself. It becomes more relevant as you pass your early adulthood and become more cognizant of your own mortality. Life is not about yourself but about what you have done for others.

Your actions on this regard may dictate your fate in the afterlife if indeed there is an afterlife.

If there is no afterlife, then your existence did had a meaning: your brief positive journey through this earth was of consequence by having helped the lives of other humans, and by having contributed to the better life of future generations.

WOW this^^^ is so profound -if i do not say myself- that I wish I can give myself and "applaud"



Thank you to all that have posted in this thread. It has been very refreshing to see the different points of views.