There is nothing which invites ridicule and scorn as much as someone
who has an overinflated opinion of themself. Surely we've all met
the bore who thinks he's the life and soul of the party, or the
idiot who thinks he knows everything. In the same way women (natal
or not) who dress inappropriately will receive unflattering comments.

Elizabeth "passes" because she is wearing the sort of outfit that
a natal woman of similar shape would wear. Put her in a sexy low
cut dress and she'd look ridiculous; but then so would a natal
woman of similar size and shape.

So, I wonder how much of the angst about not passing is actually
wanting the attention reserved for young attractive women; something
a lot of natal women would dearly love.

Older attractive women get a lot of attention too, sometimes unwanted but I suppose you can't have it both ways.

Quote from: melissa90299 on July 07, 2007, 08:59:35 AM
...
OMG, here we go again. If Elizabeth feels like she is fooling people by presenting as a women, that is her thang. There is a fundamental disconnect here between what a lot of us feel and how Elizabeth feels. What many of us feel is that we are women, not someone who is presenting as a woman. We are not in denial. We know to the depths of our souls that we are women.
...

I think you have this all wrong. First you presume that all women have a desire to look as attractive as possible, then you assume that I don't feel I am a woman in my "soul", and third you presume that a person born in a male body, but feels like a woman, is actually a woman, when in fact they are not. You can brag all day long about how beautiful you think you, but the truth is, you don't know how people react to you. You are guessing, just as you are guessing what I must be feeling.

If you want to be in an "inner circle" of people that would condemn someone for believing they are a woman when they are born into a male body, when that is exactly what you are, that is a huge conflict I can not resolve. You apparently have no problem with it, as you have convinced yourself that you are somehow different than me.

You are not. You are a person that believes themselves to be a woman, who was born into a male body. Just like me. Now you can make dogmatic statements that somehow you are different because you care what the superficial "inner circle" thinks, but you are no different than me. It is this condescending attitude that I just don't get.

It's really obvious that you really think you are somehow better than me. That you are really a transsexual and I am not. And you base this on the fact that I won't let others decide for me, how I should behave and dress and present myself. You somehow have decided that the only way to be a woman is to just proclaim it. That somehow if you just keep saying "I am a woman, not a transsexual" that it will somehow be true. It's not.

Let me explain something. I am 45 years old. I am disabled and can't work. I get about $30k a year from SSD. In Southern California, that is not much money. I don't have money for FFS, Therapy, Hormones, or SRS. I have kids. So my choice is real simple. I can worry about what everyone thinks and live in misery, or I can not care and live my life as the woman I know I am.

I am not against living in stealth and I am not against anyone trying to be passable. What I am against, is denigrating other transsexuals to get yourself into the "inner circle", as you call it. I would never want to hang around any woman that thought less of a person because they were transsexual or even worse, a non passable transsexual.

I don't find presenting myself as a passable woman as being a fraud, as you claim. You however said, that no one can find acceptance in the real women's world unless they are passable. Meaning that in your opinion, natal women are prejudice against transsexual women. I have been full time over three years now, and I can tell you, that is just not a true statement. So if you want to fit into a group of women that deem themselves better than transsexual women, when you are one, that is too big of a conflict for me. I am not willing to hang around anyone that would denigrate a transsexual. That is the only fraud I am talking about.

I think you are confusing this whole issue, so let me boil it down for you. I don't care about superficial people. I don't want to be one. I don't want to hang around them. So for me, I don't need to hide that I am a transsexual woman. And just saying that I am not, is just not enough. It's not enough to say "I am a woman". If that were true, you would not be on your way to Thailand to have your penis and testicles removed.

I am sorry that you are ashamed of what you are. I used to feel the same way, but I have learned to embrace who I am. I am not threatened and not intimidated or ashamed because you proclaim yourself a woman and me something different. Like I said, we are very different, but not in our transsexuality. You are just as much of a transsexual as me and denying it will not make you feel better. Well, it might make you feel better, but it won't make it true. Am I a woman? You bet I am. Am I a natal woman? No. I am a transsexual woman and no matter what you say, so are you. That makes your only choice, to spend the rest of your life denying it. I just can't/won't do that. It's the lie that has done more damage to me than any other thing. I am ok with who and what I am and if anyone has a problem with that, it's their problem, not mine.

Love always,
Elizabeth

this might sound odd, but most non trans folk dont really care about trans folk, they dotn encounter many, dont know when they encounter most, and tbh, have very  steriotyped views of what a 'transexual' is. Now you really have to scream 'im a ->-bleeped-<-, look at me' got get read largely. MANY natal women have male features. If your vaguely like a woman/girl of your age and build clothing and behaviour wise, you pass. a 50yo woman in a miniskirt, and acting like a 20yo will draw attention.  This topic is all about personal insecurities. and people here are venting them in the wrong direction. Yes, if your 50 you will never looks as hot as a 17yo, this is life... But you can be just as much of a woman. Being female isnt about attractiveness, and attractiveness is often confused for pasability, Being female is being female, attractiveness is a rating of people regardless of gender. 'thats easy for you to say, you pass' no, its harder for me to say. to understand why this has been this way for me. Just an example from tonight, as an experiment, i went to work (im a bar girl) as normal, but wore a baggy poloshirt with my jeans,, and wore a binder over my boobs. just to see what happened. Same hair, same  no makeup, same voice. and i was called mate, buddy, sir, a few times, but largely, i was refered to as 'she' 'her' love, darlin, miss, etc. and thats not becase of how i looked, my behaviour, attitude, and aire, was that of a 20yo female, which i am. Now combine these things with a semi passable voice, and a decent attept at physically looking female, and one passes. People dont expect ->-bleeped-<-s, we are far more paranoid than we should be. paranoia leads to worry, leads to fear, people smell fear.  Now this topic wanted to cover stealth, passing, bigotry, hate, and prejudice, so far, its only shown prejudice, bigotry, and hate about passing and stealth... If we intend to discuss the subject, we really cant turning into what we want to eradicate... so far, all thats been demonstrated, is our infighting ability. lets not forget, some folk cant help being passable, as much as some cant help being unpassable, neither camp is any worrse than the other.
i tell you one thing, your all passing in the bitchyness regard... Grow up.
elizabeth:so someone born in a male body, who thinks thier female, transitions to a female body, with a 'female' brain, thier not female eh? yet you chastise this fictional 'inner circle' who condem people for belive ing thier women when thier born in a male body.
please pick your EFFFING side...
also, dont tell others how to belive, and we wont tell you what to belive.
I am a girl. please try to tell me im not, because right now, im sick of your ranting and raving and BS mongering. You have a go for one thing, then turn round and take that role...
do you actually know what day of the week it is? or when you decide, are you going to tell yourself its the day after?

After reading Elizabeth's last post, I can only say I have nothing but pity for her. She is projecting her shame and insecurity on myself and the rest of us who feel fundamentally different than she. Not better, just different. Case in point, I never, ever considered myself a crossdresser, much less labeeld myself one, as Eliz has done on her website. Anyway, I hope she truly finds the strength to be secure in herself and let others take care of themselves. Recovering alcoholics call this taking other people's inventories. It is a classic way to avoid one's own issues.

Rachael, in my circles---corporate and social in stylish, cosmopolitan San Francisco---there is a great emphasis placed on style and being "attractive." I would differ with your ageist POV that a 17 year old is necessarily more attractive than a woman in her fifties. I find mature women very attractive myself and attraction goes way beyond the physical BTW.

Anyway, I am on my way to Thailand for my SRS and BA.

I expect this thread will be locked the next time I log on.

I just want to say that I am disappointed that so many threads such as this one start off as a reasonable discussion and end up with girls bitching. Yes I know it happens in clubs and bars, but please ladies let's have some decorum on here!!!!
Meant kindly, best wishes, Louise

I can't really bring myself to care about this crap seeing as it doesn't effect me in the slightest.

UHHH!!!
We should only care about things that affect us directly!
So, if there is prejudice, poverty, injustice, etc. Anywhere
you won't give a crap!

I care about those things as much as any person does.

Quote from: melissa90299 on July 08, 2007, 09:05:07 AM
After reading Elizabeth's last post, I can only say I have nothing but pity for her.
...

The ultimate act of condescension? You are the squared away person who is right and nothing left to do but pity poor Elizabeth, because she won't agree with a superficial, condescending, superior, attitude such as the one projected above. The last thing I would want is to be like that. I will never let my self worth be determined by what others think, especially those who don't know.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Quote from: regina on July 08, 2007, 06:55:59 PM

Quote from: Elizabeth on July 07, 2007, 08:00:34 PMAm I a natal woman? No. I am a transsexual woman and no matter what you say, so are you. That makes your only choice, to spend the rest of your life denying it.

Elizabeth, you totally have a right to your opinion and your view of yourself and shouldn't be condemned or put down for it. I feel the problem in threads like this is when we go beyond speaking for ourselves and make generalizations about all of us... on either side of the coin. This would be a much more positive discussion if everyone would just keep their observations in the first person and not make global comments.

ciao,
Gina M.

Do you mean like this?

Quote from: Laura Eva B

The only way a transsexual woman is going to find a "happy life" outside a close knit circle of friends and colleagues who know and accept her for what she is, and outside of the TS community, is if she passes absolutely, or come so close to it that she's seen as 90% more woman than guy, and people are really not

or

Quote from: Rachael

Laura, i agree entirely with your post, theres nice sentiments in the community, and its nice to be friendly, but at the end of the day, folk need to realise the harsh reality of this situation. stop living in cookoo land, and to me, if a trans woman doesnt care about passing, and just wants to wear female clothes and be seen as female socially, surely thats along the lines of CD, TV? Transition is about becoming physically female...
i do have a problem with my own passability,
...

and

Quote from: Jessica

Yes Laura and Rachel, unfortunately, that is absolutely correct.
It is the reality of the condition.

or this?

Quote from: melissa90299

OMG, here we go again. If Elizabeth feels like she is fooling people by presenting as a women, that is her thang. There is a fundamental disconnect here between what a lot of us feel and how Elizabeth feels. What many of us feel is that we are women, not someone who is presenting as a woman. We are not in denial. We know to the depths of our souls that we are women. It is not so much as physical as it is spiritual. Beyond that though and beyond passing is the fact that society judges women by their appearance. We could rant and rave about that all we want but that is a fact.

When someone proclaims to speak for all transsexuals, about how things are, I feel compelled to speak back, when I don't agree. And if people get personal with me, then I have not choice but to get personal back. I have not attacked anyone personally, just what they are saying, especially when they purport to speak for me, since I am transsexual.

This is "a rose by any other name", kind of argument, and it's silly. Let's see, we have girls who are posting at a transgender web site. They actually have men's bodies, but feel they are women. Now they insist they are not transsexuals, in an attempt to make themselves different and better than others who come here, by proclaiming they are really "women". Well, they are not really women. They are really transsexuals and they can call themselves anything they want, but the name we use for this condition in the English language is transsexual. Do they feel like women? Yes. Have they always felt like women? Yes, most of the time. But they are not. This is not an insult, or some way to demean someone who feels themselves to be a gender that their body does not match. We all feel that, that is what we are doing here.

I am against this snobby, elitist attitude of those who would separate themselves as better, not because they possess some trait I don't, but just because they proclaim it. I am not ashamed that I used to identify as a crossdresser. I used think that crossdresser and transsexual meant the same thing. I didn't know that some people crossdress for sexual reasons. I assumed everyone was like me and hiding the fact that they secretely wanted to be women. It was not until I listened to crossdressers that I realized that was a totally different thing. Having said that, I only crossdressed a couple of times my whole life, until I came out.

The real question is, why would someone go read my homepage and then mention it here, as if it were something bad about me? What is that all about? There are lots of crossdressers that turn out to be transsexuals. This is more elitist crap.

Quote from: Dr Harry Benjamin
...
Cross-dressing exists (with few exceptions) in practically all transsexuals, while transsexual desires are not evident (although possibly latent) in most ->-bleeped-<-s. It seems to depend upon how deeply and for what congenital or acquired reasons the sex and gender orientation is disturbed, whether the clinical picture of transvestism or transsexualism will emerge. The picture of TSism may first appear to be merely TVism, but whether this indicates a progressive character is by no means certain. (See chapter 4, "The Male Transsexual").
...
A low degree of largely unconscious transsexualism can be appeased through cross-dressing and demands no other therapy for emotional comfort. These are ->-bleeped-<-s (Group 1).

A medium degree of transsexualism makes greater demands in order to restore or maintain an emotional balance. The identification with the female cannot be satisfied by wearing her clothes alone. Some physical changes, especially breast development, are requirements for easing the emotional tension. Some of these pa

tients waver between transvestitic indulgences and transsexual demands for transformation (Group 2).

For patients of a high degree of transsexualism (the "true and full-fledged transsexual"), a conversion operation is the all-consuming urge, as mentioned earlier and as a later chapter will show still more fully. Cross-dressing is an insufficient help, as aspirin for a brain tumor headache would be (Group 3).

It must be left to further observations and investigations in greater depth to decide whether or not transvestitic desires may really be transsexual in nature and origin. Many probably are, but the frequent fetishistic ->-bleeped-<-s may have to be excluded.

If these attempts to define and classify the ->-bleeped-<- and the transsexual appear vague and unsatisfactory, it is because a sharp and scientific separation of the two syndromes is not possible. We have as yet no objective diagnostic methods at our disposal to differentiate between the two. We - often - have to take the statement of an emotionally disturbed individual, whose attitude may change like a mood or who is inclined to tell the doctor what he believes the doctor wants to hear. Furthermore, nature does not abide by rigid systems. The vicissitudes of life and love cause ebbs and flows in the emotions so that fixed boundaries cannot be drawn.

It is true that the request for a conversion operation is typical only for the transsexual and can actually serve as definition. It is also true that the ->-bleeped-<- looks at his sex organ as an organ of pleasure, while the transsexual turns from it in disgust. Yet, even this is not clearly defined in every instance and no two cases are ever alike. An overlapping and blurring of types or groups is certainly frequent.

http://www.symposion.com/ijt/benjamin/chap_02.htm

This elitism we see is not justified by the published research available. In this regard, it must be refuted when presented as the "truth" about transsexuals and what will make them happy. As much as everyone would like nice tidy defined lines, there appears to be none. The truth about transsexualism is that it is self diagnosed. So when we question someone elses transsexuality, we are questioning if they are lying or not. So when people say this is the truth about transsexuals or that is the truth about transsexuals, they imply that anyone that does not meet that criteria is a lier. This underlying accusation is contemptuous and offensive, considering the source.

I am not afraid to stand up to these these elitists because they might try to embarrass me. I am secure in who I am. I think what they are doing is wrong, and I believe it negatively affects those who are just coming to terms with all of this. If you really are not a transsexual and you really are a woman? What are you doing here at Susan's? I thought this was a place for people who have issue with their gender not matching their body. I don't come here so someone can try to make me feel bad by proclaiming that there is something wrong with me if I don't believe what they believe. Any line that is typed into a forum that starts with "every", "any", "all", "never", "always", is to be questioned. We are all different, we don't all feel the same things.

I am not going to listen to someone who either has already have GRS or is on thier way to having GRS, tell me they are not transsexual. It's absurd, unless they are intersex. It's silly semantics. One can call it anything they want, but the word we use in English is transsexual. If that offends people that are transsexual, because they don't like the word, I don't know what to say. How are we supposed to talk about this? Why does someone proclaim themselves to be "a woman" and not transsexual? What is gained from that? And why do they expect that others should go along with this, not to offend them?

My feeling is, if you are not transsexual and you want to denigrate those who are, go somewhere else. Don't come to a site that was set up for transgendered people.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Quote from: Laura Eva B on July 06, 2007, 07:20:33 PM
But the big issue is can you make new friends, find romance, build a social life, as a not "fully passable" TS woman ?  

I had to laugh when I read this. I never started making any friends at all until after I came out and began showing up places in a dress. And at the very beginning I had no idea how to pass, I really sucked at it. I learned the hard way over time. But it didn't matter to my friends, which kind of demolishes the assumptions behind your statement, Laura.

The reason I never made any friends before coming out was, I was closed off from my own self, closed off from life. When I came out, people remarked on how joyously I lived my life and they felt glad to share this joy with me. Very quickly I made more friends than I would know what to do with. I went from social nonentity to popularity almost overnight. In the social circles I moved in, every last person was cisgender and I found vast abundance of support, affirmation, and love. I made a couple of trans friends too, apart from the social whirl, a couple of wise old gals who kept to themselves unassumingly but also became a great support for me.

The support, love, and affirmation just keep happening for me. I think the reason is I am finally happy being myself and radiate this happiness infectiously. Or as Marianne Williamson said, when we liberate ourselves, we give permission to those around us to liberate themselves too. It really works and I live by that.

And all of this without passing.

As for attire, I kept my style restrained, elegant, modest... a bit on the conservative side... even though my friends kept urging me to dress more splashily... one womanly gift I have is knowing how to dress for the occasion. Always chic but understated, this is the great thing about being Italian, our talent for la bella figura. The compliments I get on my style are sincere (you can tell when they're fake), women come to me asking for fashion advice. I am just so grateful for all the blessings in my life, this has carried me through the rough spots. Of course as I go in public I occasionally encounter people who treat me mean, I expected it, and fortunately those incidents have been few and far between... and anytime that happened, I had plenty of cisgender friends who would gladly leap to my defense. Yes, the negative stuff hurt me a lot, but it was vastly outweighed by the positive stuff.

The only thing in society that caused problems for me was when I worried about passing. Clearly it wasn't the non-passing that was the problem... it was my worrying about it. Having so many supportive friends meant I was able to deal with it, love myself just as I am right now, and grow ever stronger and more confident. And better-looking once I got on HRT, of course.


Posted on: July 09, 2007, 12:30:42 AM

---

Quote from: Elizabeth on July 06, 2007, 07:50:04 PMI just don't care. The deal is this. If your happiness depends on what others think of you, than passing will be very important to you. If however, your happiness comes from within, it relies on no one. I don't need to be reassured I am a woman and I don't need others to see me that way. The only one that needs to see me that way, is me. And I do.
[...]
I chose to be happy. It depends on no one. I think people sense this. Once they know you don't care what they think, i.e. dressing how I please, they don't offer their opinions. No negative responses appears to be acceptance. So in the end, I get treated just as well as the passing TS, except I get the benefit of not ever having to worry if I pass or not.

You said it so well, Elizabeth. I'm gonna give you a brownie point for that post. Really, seriously, my experience has borne out the truth of Elizabeth's wise insight here.

I agree that in the picture Elizabeth passes quite well, and I think it's because she has discovered the real secret to it. And it ain't looks. It's attitude.

'Cause the paradox is, as someone once said (I think it was Andy Warhol?) - When you stop wanting something is when you get it. Failure to pass bothered me a lot at first, but then I decided to hell with passing, I'm just going to go ahead and enjoy my life. And that more than anything else (well, HRT) made me start passing.

I know what a huge concern it is, and how hard it is to just let go and be yourself, but my experience leads me to believe that loving yourself and affirming your inner worth is what really matters. I don't believe the blue meanies of society hold that much power over me. I really don't care. I live with love and joy, and good people of all walks of life respond to that with acceptance.

The greatest thing that ever happened to me was being accepted into a women's circle totally as one of them with no distinction drawn between me and them in the slightest. This was possible for 3 reasons: 1. There is generally a more enlightened attitude spreading in America today toward TG; 2. I am at peace with myself and so generally folks are at peace with me; 3. My womanhood is self-evident in my manner and presentation, and that's really all that counts. I think passing is overrated. It sure is nice when it occurs, but I don't pin my happiness or self-worth on it, which makes for a happier life overall.

To go into more detail about my lack of caring:

Transition is IMO about socially being accepted as a woman, physical bits I think are secondary to that as most of people you come across in day to day life are not going to give you a knicker inspection, plenty of people are asexual for whatever reason and deal with it just fine.

To be socially excepted as a woman you need to be a socially plausible one which is a bit tricky for most people and yeah, not passing makes it harder, much harder though still not impossible, who you are is way more important than your ->-bleeped-<-itus.

The three main problems IMO with the unpassable:

1) dress/makeup sense, FFS don't dress like a drag queen, LOOK at women of your size/age/complexion and then go from there, don't over-do makeup either, ever see a woman wearing full makeup casually who doesn't look mental and scary? nope.

2) don't be clingy, a bunch of unpassable "loners" I know when I throw them a bone they bite my arm off and I can't deal with that, just because I take you out for a drink because no one else will does not mean I'm your best friend forever.

3) Voice, even if you would never physically pass in a bazillion years voice is independent of that, work on it and get it perfect it's not impossible. It is EXTREMELY difficult for anyone to accept you as female with an obviously male voice as a male voice=male speech patterns.


I found in the early days that allot of women were interested in me kind of like a novelty friend, take advantage of it but then move on when you make friends of your own because any friendship based on them being interested in you as a ->-bleeped-<- is frankly doomed.


When it comes down to it there are allot of REALLY ugly women out there who because they were socialised as female from day one they are not challenged for the fact that they look like a bloke. they may be mistaken for one every now and again though though it's no big deal.

a rule of thumb is "what'd a natal woman do in my position" as a starting point, don't forget that this is about being you but if you think you're a woman you've got to be one and that is not about wearing a dress it's about who you are socially.


Why I fail to care:

I fail to care mostly about these inane arguments, I've hung about with the "->-bleeped-<- elite" and some not so passable people but when it comes down to it I really don't care how passable someone is, who they are is far far more important. I don't feel uneasy about hanging with less passable people either because I'm secure in my own self to the point of not caring.

I try to help those less fortunate than I am as much as is practically possible and often unfortunately that help is not enough but this is not going to be solved by transsexuals who present as ->-bleeped-<-s demanding they be accepted as a woman, you can't demand that.

Quote from: Hypatia on July 09, 2007, 12:35:01 AM
...
I know what a huge concern it is, and how hard it is to just let go and be yourself, but my experience leads me to believe that loving yourself and affirming your inner worth is what really matters. I don't believe the blue meanies of society hold that much power over me. I really don't care. I live with love and joy, and good people of all walks of life respond to that with acceptance.

The greatest thing that ever happened to me was being accepted into a women's circle totally as one of them with no distinction drawn between me and them in the slightest. This was possible for 3 reasons: 1. There is generally a more enlightened attitude spreading in America today toward TG; 2. I am at peace with myself and so generally folks are at peace with me; 3. My womanhood is self-evident in my manner and presentation, and that's really all that counts. I think passing is overrated. It sure is nice when it occurs, but I don't pin my happiness or self-worth on it, which makes for a happier life overall.

I think that is a great attitude and the end result is happiness, instead of a need to try and blow out someone else's candle, to make one's own seem brighter. I want to see everyone empowered to live their lives happily. If passing is the only way to make transsexuals happy, than many transsexuals would be doomed to unhappiness. I just don't believe it needs to be that way. It's about living one's life in a way that brings fulfillment, not stress over meeting the demands of others. I think most of us have done enough of that already.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Elizabeth, regarding your interesting posts on this thread, I want to tell you that you have my respect. I am no intellectual and could never write with such eloquence and belief. I am on rung one of this ladder, you are near the top and I am grateful for what I am learning from you.
Best wishes, Louise

I posted above late at night before bed and slept on it. Now in the morning over coffee I'd like to think through it a little further.

I apologize if what I said came across as arrogant or too sure of myself. I struggled through tons of doubt, despair, and darkness to reach this place of inner peace. I fully empathize with any soul who finds it rough going. It is rough, no sugarcoating it.

I do not, cannot presume to define what the life of a transsexual woman must be. Each individual can only find those answers for herself. I was just presenting what I've found worked in my situation-- and to gently suggest that one's options may not necessarily be as limited as they might seem at times. I said "passing is overrated," but then I'm blessed to live in an urban area of highly educated people. I sometimes hear it said that in some areas failure to pass can get you physically attacked. So if it becomes a matter of personal safety, then passing isn't overrated. Depends on context. Can anyone name specifically any of these areas where failure to pass is physically threatening?

Even then-- Brandon Teena passed (until he was outed). Gwen Araujo passed (until she was outed). Tyra Hunter passed (until they pulled her panties off). In each case, failure to pass had nothing to do with their murders. It was transphobia that somehow got kicked into high gear because their stealth was compromised. Who knows, maybe not passing so well is actually better protection for one's safety, because then the expectations are not set so high, and do not provoke violent rage when outed.

In each case, cisgender hetero men were the murderers. For my own safety, I stay away from cisgender hetero men as much as possible (with exceptions for a few good ones who I know can be trusted). I don't try to ingratiate myself with cis het men--their world is not for me. I associate with women, gay men, and trans men whose company I find life-affirming. Even if women hated me, I don't fear physical violence from them.

It helps that I'm a mature woman. This is specific to my situation. I still get a rush of delight when a man responds to my beauty--but I don't take the bait. But for a younger woman, the high of being seen as beautiful and sexy, and feeling horny, might be impossible to resist. It's nice to be young and pretty, but from what I can tell, more dangerous (especially in stealth). I may not be as pretty but I keep myself safe, and am getting what I want out of life without attention from men.

In this thread I learned of one more blessing to give thanks for-- I don't live in a society that's so shallow a person's worth is judged by her looks. That sounds like a dismal, soulless place to be. I'd wondered about moving to San Francisco as one possible option, but this makes me reconsider the attractiveness of the place. The people I associate with tend to be less materialistic and more spiritual, who always look deeper than the surface and value a person's soul above all.

I may have given the wrong impression that I don't even try to pass-- I do, I always make my very best effort. This is again an Italian thing-- we don't leave the house without looking our best (I'm talking about cultured, educated people in Italy, not guidos in New Jersey). Just the fact that I care for my looks and present myself well helps a lot to be accepted among cisgender women-- it goes deeper than looks, though-- they accept me because they can see I genuinely like women and feel comfortable blending with them, assimilating into their world. They can tell this originates from reality deep within my soul, it cannot be faked. I just feel I belong there and they feel I belong with them. It's vibes, not looks.

That doesn't mean looking one's best is insignificant-- but it is part of the whole, and not even the most important part. In my personal humble opinion. Thanks for listening and sharing, everyone. This thread has been enlightening and educational, and helped me to get clearer about where I'm at.

I said I was out of this thread, and I am however, I feel the need to defend myself.

Elizabeth when You used my words as an example:

QuoteYes Laura and Rachel, unfortunately, that is absolutely correct. 
It is the reality of the condition.

You must have missed my post 10 minutes later which also said:

QuoteI think the flaw (which I initially agreed with but then recognized it for what it was) is as follows...

Just wanted to clear that up.

Jessica

Quote from: Laura Eva B on July 06, 2007, 09:38:08 PM
You appear happy as you are which is wonderful ... myself I feel my life is still in turmoil, I need to pass, it was a "pre-requisite" of my transitioning, and although I seem to be accepted without problems, I feel such frequent stress and anxiety over my appearance ...

http://uk.geocities.com/laura_eva_b/Durham_01.jpg
http://uk.geocities.com/laura_eva_b/Cousins_02.jpg
http://uk.geocities.com/laura_eva_b/Xmas_Dance_02.jpg
http://uk.geocities.com/laura_eva_b/Malabar_Junct_01.jpg

I have enough issues over self confidence contrary to all evidence, how would I cope if I really felt I was being "read" day after day ?

Laura x

All your pics in the links look female Laura Eva which is a great asset as many people even after transition still are unable to 'pass' for various reasons. Agreed the main object for everyone is to 'pass' in every situation and you have achieved that by the look of it. You are also lucky you have a daughter and family who loves you. I don't have any children.

I too have been lucky and seem to pass and I haven't had any surgery, but I am also not very self confident and wish I could be more feminine and attractive. 

Quote from: Jessica on July 09, 2007, 08:25:07 AM
I said I was out of this thread, and I am however, I feel the need to defend myself.

Elizabeth when You used my words as an example:

QuoteYes Laura and Rachel, unfortunately, that is absolutely correct. 
It is the reality of the condition.

You must have missed my post 10 minutes later which also said:

QuoteI think the flaw (which I initially agreed with but then recognized it for what it was) is as follows...

Just wanted to clear that up.

Jessica

Jessica,

I did see your other post. I used that particular post of yours, not because of the point of view you were arguing, but only to show I was not the only person in this thread that had made broad generalizations about our community. I didn't mean to offend you or make you feel like your position needed defending and if I made you feel that way, I am sorry, it was not my intent.

While Regina cautioned everyone, I was the only one mentioned by name. I thought it only fair to point out that there were plenty of generalizations going on, long before I posted on this thread. Thanks for your understanding.

Love always,
Elizabeth

I agree with what Elizabeth and Hypatia have said, that ones attitude is among the most important things to living successfully. When I first started RLE, I was concerned about my ability, or lack thereof, to pass. After a short while, I came to the conclusion that passing didn't matter, living as I am and being happy with that is the important thing. Sure, I make an effort to look good, but it isn't be-all end-all. Sometimes I pass, sometimes I don't, so it goes. My friends know who I am and care about me. They know my history. I don't need for people to see me as woman-born-woman, if they see a transwoman, that's perfectly OK.

zythyra