Quote from: Nero on July 17, 2007, 01:32:19 PM
Primary = childhood (usually birth) onset

Secondary = adulthood onset

I've done alot of reflecting on my life over the last few years.  And here are the basic facts.  I knew I wanted to be a girl before I was 8, probably age 7 or less.  But right about then my brother was committed to a mental hospital, and I learned how to repress it real fast so that wouldn't happen to me.  I had to wait another 40 years before I let it back out of the bottle.  My body is not erotic to me, and I like sex with men as much as I like it with women.  What am I?  And does it really matter?

Thank you for giving your response Regina and I do understand what your saying.

Sarah L.

hrm, so primary and secondery have behavioural charactersitics as well as just when they discover thier gid?
im so confused 

Quote from: NeroThat post was intended to be humorous. Many of the members here have heard all the things I listed a million times over, hence the joke. It was not intended to be a representation of Secondaries and their behaviours by any means.
My sincere apologies. I didn't mean to offend.

Oh all right i have misunderstood you, sorry. no offense taken, thank you for the clarification 

reading that, im so confused...

but are you saying secondery is more of a consious choice, whereas primary is tortrous realisation?
and this is all ageless?

Quote from: Rachael on July 17, 2007, 08:14:28 PM
reading that, im so confused...

but are you saying secondery is more of a consious choice, whereas primary is tortrous realisation?
and this is all ageless?

This is why I initially said this:

Quote from: Tink on July 16, 2007, 07:43:02 PM
when I go back in time and look at how my life developed since early childhood, I can tell, for sure, that it is completely different from that of someone who transitioned later on in life.  Why? because I avoided the common traps they fell into (i.e, denial , marriage, male presentation and the ability to CHOOSE to put off transiton for whatever reasons) When I look at these differences, it is clear, to me, that I transitioned young because I felt more strongly about being a woman than older transitioners did/do.  I didn't have A CHOICE.  I transitioned because that was what I had to do.  For me it was a matter of life and death.  Being who I am was more important than everything older transitioners have lived for (i.e, jobs, careers, school, children, family, spouses, society, pressure, and whatever else there is for an excuse). My priority was to be who I was, the rest (everything others have lived to build during their lives as males) was secondary.  Why? because I had no choice.  It was simply the way I felt.  My dysphoria was too much for me to bear.  I had to break free; otherwise, I would have died.

tink

So it seems that to be a secondary would mean that either:

a) One has the ability to put other things ahead of transition
b) While their dysphoria exists, it is to a lesser degree and thus easier to suppress

I'll admit that I would fall under this category.  It took me a while to realize why I was unhappy being a male.  I went to a Catholic school and had it drilled into me that accepting any lifestyle in the LGBT community made one a religious deviant.  I was forced to accept this and it made me feel that I was wrong to not live up to the call to be a man.  So for a while I suppressed my unhappiness and became like a machine.  I got angry when I saw someone admitting their identification as a woman because it was like they were doing what I wouldn't let myself do.  But now I guess I can admit it and at 20 years old I guess it would place me into the category of Secondary. 

I have yet to take any steps because I am trying to be practical and finish out college before accumulating even more debt.  Its not like I have any choice other than to postpone it though...

i agree with Tink, i couldnt put it off, or wait, and the idea of being a husband or father repulses me... the only way i will marry is a wife,and be a parent as a mother. I could simply not live as a boy, and i had to be myself, or die trying. so there is a difference i feel between groups, as id never be able to stop, heck, my parents threw me out of the house, and im living alone now, working, studying, trying to make a life for myself AND transitioning... if i could put it off i would, i honestly would, but i cant.
if that makes me something differnet whatever. it doesnt effect my life in any way, im just as screwed, and suffer just as much.

Which goes back to my original post that we are all indeed very different and I am perfectly fine with that.  Can others say the same thing?

Quote from: ReginaSorry, Tink, but despite your sunny wood sprite thingy, your post and outlook have a lot of hostility and were quite hurtful.

Ahhh but Regina you asked me to give you an honest opinion, and I did give you an honest response from the bottom of my heart.  Sorry if you found it hurtful, but it is what I believe.

There's a thread in the philosophy forum titled "Why asked a question if you don't want to hear the answer?" 

tink

Quote from: Hypatia on July 17, 2007, 10:50:04 AM

Right on, sister. I wish this was better understood. At least I wish my mother understood it. She knows damn well the traumas I went through in childhood.

Posted on: July 17, 2007, 10:36:05 AM

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So that's why they always called me "girl" in school.

I can relate well to this, Nero... I consistently failed at male socialization throughout my life, except in arty subcultures like music where gender rules were openly flexible.

Only two times have I voluntarily chosen all-male settings: one of them was the Scouts, where I began having sex with boys and then got raped, and the other was a group studied by a woman scholar as, interestingly, a program that feminized men.

Yes Hypatia, I believe PTSD is a much bigger issue in the trans world than most realize. In threads like this, it's obvious that many of us had extremely traumatic childhoods because of who we are. I also found a sense of community in the artistic/music subculture, one of the few places where gender roles weren't as rigidly enforced. I'm sorry to hear of your rape experience, I've unfortunately been there as well. 

zythyra

Posted on: July 17, 2007, 10:18:46 PM

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Quote from: regina on July 17, 2007, 03:32:12 PM

Fundamentally, in my heart, I don't believe in primary/secondary. That's how I answer it. But I don't want to downplay or dismiss what other people are experiencing. Yes, I have met many transwomen who I, point blank, could not respond to as women (a lot of the sci fi, computer game playin', car-lovin', tekkie/trekkie ones). I get they have gender issues every bit as serious as mine that gave them just as much pain, but as to the logical conclusion that... well, if you're not a man you must be a woman... no, I don't buy that. I believe in spectrums because all these issues are so complex, there are so many variables and there is so much clouding up people's perceptions of themselves and others (I'm at the top of that list). Does that make any sense, Sarah? Tell me if I'm totally full of it.

Gina, I agree, it's not as simple as primary/secondary, there's a much bigger spectrum of experience to consider. We all have assumptions that we've internalized from the binary culture; if one is not a man, then they must be a woman (or visa versa). It took a lot of soul searching for me to realize I had other options, of being neither, both or other gender.

zythyra

Tsk Tsk Oh Regina, I respect your opinion but I don't agree with it.  I think I also have the right to do that, don't I? 

Quote from: ReginaThis is a thread about something that some of us find real, and unique and highly personal to themselves

Exactly, for some of us GID is very real.  I couldn't agree more with your statement.

tink

QuoteAddressing this part first. It's not only unflattering, but men do not use words like 'patriarchy' and 'misogyny' as part of their daily vocabulary. It's one thing for a man to support the feminist movement, quite another to be a militant man-hating, man-bashing feminist as some ftms are. It's just extremely difficult for me to see them as men. Sorry.

Nero, dude.  First you blast me for insulting you for giving my POV on this thread. It came from me using a sweeping generalization for sure, based on begaviour. Frankly, during the length of this thread and trying to follow it over the last several days, I have lost track of exactly what you are tryiong to say - what point you are trying to get across. To tell you trhe truth, I thought I was agreing with you. Now I have to go back and reread the thread to see whre you are coming from.

But the quote above, and several others you have made, I have found to be rather insulting.
Stating something as generally sweeping as: "men do not use words like 'patriarchy' and 'misogyny' as part of their daily vocabulary." is much worse in my opinion than anything I stated. It seems like you taken it upon yourself to define what real men do and do not say. I am taking it with a grain of salt, because it seems like you have an axe to grind with the feminist population, and I want no part of anyone's internalized hatred toward a specific group. I already dealt with my own generalized anger toward the male population.

I generally hate everyone, but I try to do it on a person by person basis, not based on what sex or gender they are.   

I am going to go back and re-read the thread, but my gut instinct is telling me that this is another one of those threads on Susan's that seek to do nothing but validate by being accutely exclusionary. If I deem that to be the case, than I won't be back on this one and you can rant all you like to anyone that wants to listen.

Quote from: regina on July 17, 2007, 09:47:23 PM

Quote from: Tink on July 17, 2007, 08:21:24 PMI didn't have A CHOICE.  I transitioned because that was what I had to do.  For me it was a matter of life and death.  Being who I am was more important than everything older transitioners have lived for (i.e, jobs, careers, school, children, family, spouses, society, pressure, and whatever else there is for an excuse). My priority was to be who I was, the rest (everything others have lived to build during their lives as males) was secondary.  Why? because I had no choice.  It was simply the way I felt.  My dysphoria was too much for me to bear.  I had to break free; otherwise, I would have died.[/b]

I have a real problem with this analysis. A lot of things happen in life that take us in different directions. Someone in the family dies, a trauma occurs, some children are more bound to the immediate urgent needs of their parents, whatever. And very often, what happens in our lives cannot be called a "choice" it just happens and you do your best to deal with it. You pull yourself together and you go on and try to live. And sometimes, after the dust clears, you look around and find yourself in a totally different place than you could ever have humanly expected. Moreover, we grow up in different times and different environments with different starting points physically and financially. I said it in an earlier post, one aspect to early transitioners I find in nearly every personal history I've heard is that they were of a size and general look that it wasn't that hard for them to go forward and transition. They didn't face severe physical incongruity and that's just not starting from the same place from someone who did have that to deal with. Was this because they were so meant to be female and others weren't or they were so more completely estrogenized in the womb... whatever, none of us know that anyway. But I doubt it.

You say you had no choice, and I can believe that because it happened to you. But you didn't live the lives of people who didn't transition when they were young, did you? You say you knew what you had to do, but until you're in someone else's shoes, you don't really know what you'd do, it's all conjecture.

And that's what this is, it's all conjecture when you speak for people whose lives were different than yours. You say they had a choice to transition when you don't even know the circumstances of their lives. What I take away from this is that you have a lot of issues with later transitioners that you're not especially up front about. Sorry, Tink, but despite your sunny wood sprite thingy, your post and outlook have a lot of hostility and were quite hurtful.

Gina M.

Posted on: July 17, 2007, 09:42:19 PM

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Quote from: Rachael on July 17, 2007, 09:12:42 PM
i agree with Tink, i couldnt put it off, or wait, and the idea of being a husband or father repulses me... the only way i will marry is a wife,and be a parent as a mother. I could simply not live as a boy, and i had to be myself, or die trying. so there is a difference i feel between groups, as id never be able to stop, heck, my parents threw me out of the house, and im living alone now, working, studying, trying to make a life for myself AND transitioning... if i could put it off i would, i honestly would, but i cant.
if that makes me something differnet whatever. it doesnt effect my life in any way, im just as screwed, and suffer just as much.

Sorry Rachael, I appreciate your intense dysphoria, but you're living in an age where you can go on the Internet and find out how to do it. There are white, middle class young people learning things like this everyday from the privacy of their own bedrooms. You can go to a health center in many parts of the country and find sympathetic medical personnel. You can go to support groups. That isn't the same as someone who transitioned 30 years ago, who dealt with a complete lack of information except on the street and through often illegal hormones and surgeries. I understand your need to transition young and I'm thankful you have that option, but please don't think that entitles you to make judgments  about people who grew up in a different world and time.

ciao,
Gina M.

Im sorry Gina, but we live today, we dont live 30 years ago, i wasnt around then, and we are talking NOW... and i can garuntee that now all trans people will transition in thier teens, and no middle aged people will transition. This isnt just societys fault, but some dysphorias can develop in time, and mental breakdowns can generate dysphorias that arnt even just gender related. its fairly narrow minded to say you couldnt transition young 30 years ago. one could,the curcumstances were just much harder, and im not deneying this. But Dont you dare assume that this is easy now... there arnt support groups everywhere, i cant access hormones for 8 or so years if i followed the NHS,  or surgery, i AM taking ileagal hormones, to keep me alive, and i dont need you to tell me how easy kids have it these days...

Quote"men do not use words like 'patriarchy' and 'misogyny' as part of their daily vocabulary."

Sure we do, when we're trying to bag a babe in Birkenstocks

*runs and hides*

Dennis

Quote from: Tink on July 16, 2007, 07:43:02 PM
Why? because I avoided the common traps they fell into (i.e, denial , marriage, male presentation and the ability to CHOOSE to put off transiton for whatever reasons) When I look at these differences, it is clear, to me, that I transitioned young because I felt more strongly about being a woman than older transitioners did/do.  I didn't have A CHOICE.  I transitioned because that was what I had to do.  For me it was a matter of life and death. 

You have made a rather large assumption.  I never chose to put off transition.  I was terrorised into waiting.  I waited because that was what I had to do.  For me it was a matter of life and death.  Since nobody seems to have read this, it bears repeating:

Quote from: Lisbeth on July 17, 2007, 03:51:12 PM
I knew I wanted to be a girl before I was 8, probably age 7 or less.  But right about then my brother was committed to a mental hospital, and I learned how to repress it real fast so that wouldn't happen to me.  I had to wait another 40 years before I let it back out of the bottle. 

Quote from: Lisbeth on July 18, 2007, 09:54:17 AM

Quote from: Tink on July 16, 2007, 07:43:02 PM
Why? because I avoided the common traps they fell into (i.e, denial , marriage, male presentation and the ability to CHOOSE to put off transiton for whatever reasons) When I look at these differences, it is clear, to me, that I transitioned young because I felt more strongly about being a woman than older transitioners did/do.  I didn't have A CHOICE.  I transitioned because that was what I had to do.  For me it was a matter of life and death. 

You have made a rather large assumption.  I never chose to put off transition.  I was terrorised into waiting.  I waited because that was what I had to do.  For me it was a matter of life and death.  Since nobody seems to have read this, it bears repeating:

Quote from: Lisbeth on July 17, 2007, 03:51:12 PM
I knew I wanted to be a girl before I was 8, probably age 7 or less.  But right about then my brother was committed to a mental hospital, and I learned how to repress it real fast so that wouldn't happen to me.  I had to wait another 40 years before I let it back out of the bottle. 

if one can repress the feelings, are they that strong?

Quote from: regina on July 17, 2007, 11:08:52 PM
What I wish is that, rather than everybody explaining why they feel a certain way (explanations and theories and quotes) people would just say the reality of what they feel (not just their theories) and, especially, how those feelings affect how they relate to others, themselves and the world.

I think these are the most "female" words in this entire thread.

must words be gendered?

Quote from: Rachael on July 18, 2007, 09:56:54 AM
if one can repress the feelings, are they that strong?

So you're saying that if my feelings were strong (i.e. "real"), I should have acknowledged them and embraced the idea that I would be sent to the psych ward?  That's an aweful lot to expect of an eight year old. 

BTW, I don't need your validation of who I am, so don't expect further response from me.