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The woes of passing well

Started by gothique11, July 20, 2007, 02:14:55 PM

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Rachael

in EFFING deed.
i dont enjoy passing, i am, therefore i enjoy being a woman, its my life, one is surely free to enjoy ones life?

Laura: yeah bird, you pass pretty damn nicely to the tune of 'lols i dont look like a man evar' in b minor.

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mavieenrose

When I was younger I remember men would chat me up pretty frequently, would sometimes make overtly sexual propositions, etc, etc.
I remember being flattered (after all it was a sign that I no longer passed as a male...), but it often left me feeling uncomfortable.  I was becoming aware just how objectified women could be by men.

And then all of a sudden it stopped, not completely, but it became much more subtle.  A look, a smile, a helpful hand, all in all much more respectful (though of course I don't know what the guys said between them when I wasn't in earshot...)

Why did this happen? The answer is that I'd finally become a woman, I was no longer adolescent, I'd stopped looking continually for validation in the eyes of the people around me... I diffused much more confidence, and men no longer felt they could just walk up to me and say whatever, thinking it would be enough for me to fall head over heels for them.

(I admit that at one point I was a bit concerned, I thought I'd suddenly been struck by the ugly stick and nobody wanted me anymore, but gradually I realised what had happened and that this wasn't the case; I'd just become more discerning and demanding, and the men could sense it).

MVER XXX
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gothique11

Merv: Men smell confidence, and they do not approach women as openly who seem confident -- you're not easy, in other words. There are men who are attracted to confidence, and those aren't going to be the guys who are looking for a quick lay.

And, I agree with Rachel -- it comes to a point when passing is no longer on your mind and neither is seeking validation. I've stopped doing that a while ago, although I had to break myself out of the habit. In a way I got a feeling that it was too good to be true; then when I realized it was true, I stopped caring. So, my mind is more occupied with other things rather than looks, etc.

Don't get me wrong, the whole passing bit and validation is normal and natural. Women do it when they are teens. We go through the same stuff. We just start it later in life. We go through the kid and teen stuff that other girls our age have already been through. Then one day you find yourself in womanhood and it's different. You then get to figure that out. And that's a life process of many different stages and other processes.

Right now, however, I keep finding myself not being able to relate to a lot of trans people very much because the subject is about passing, being trans, and other stuff. It can get difficult. I understand, however, that it's a natural phase we all go through at some point. But now I'm in another point and finding that I'm getting along more with trans people at this point.

My friend, R, who is a local girl actually got fed up and pretty much stopped talking to almost everyone, stopped going to group meetings, and so on. She got to the same point. She was like, "I understand what people are going through, and that it is important for me -- but I feel like I'm just sitting here, I'm somewhere else and I'm having a hard time connecting with everyone."

Her and I get along and we talk. I think I'm one of the few trans people she talks to. I still talk to a lot of trans people, although I don't like just hanging around trans people. I like hanging out with my regular friends more so these days. When we talk, we sometimes mention things that are going on and different goals -- but the majority of what we talk about has to do with run of the mill things. It's a breath of fresh air.

It's nice to talk about something other than transitioning all the time, and if we pass or not, etc. I rarely go to groups now, although I make a cameo sometimes. It's a big change.

So, yeah. Someone in my situation has a different set of things going on, but there's not a lot of talk about those things going on. I think I just got to the point that passing doesn't enter my mind often. I just live life.
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Laura Eva B

Quote from: gothique11 on July 21, 2007, 03:40:12 PM
Don't get me wrong, the whole passing bit and validation is normal and natural. Women do it when they are teens. We go through the same stuff. We just start it later in life. We go through the kid and teen stuff that other girls our age have already been through. Then one day you find yourself in womanhood and it's different. You then get to figure that out. And that's a life process of many different stages and other processes ....

.... Her and I get along and we talk. I think I'm one of the few trans people she talks to. I still talk to a lot of trans people, although I don't like just hanging around trans people. I like hanging out with my regular friends more so these days. When we talk, we sometimes mention things that are going on and different goals -- but the majority of what we talk about has to do with run of the mill things. It's a breath of fresh air.

It's nice to talk about something other than transitioning all the time, and if we pass or not, etc. I rarely go to groups now, although I make a cameo sometimes. It's a big change.

So, yeah. Someone in my situation has a different set of things going on, but there's not a lot of talk about those things going on. I think I just got to the point that passing doesn't enter my mind often. I just live life. 

Natalie, sure I agree with you - I don't go to groups (never much did) as the atmosphere is so claustraphobic.

I'm more "advanced" than you in that all my "practical" transition issues are behind me now ... I don't have your social life which I kind of envy as its something I've missed out on being so much older ... but I'm still very much in the "teen angst" phase, still a bit about looks, much more so about relationships, what I want from life ... if you really have it all sorted then good for you, personally I think its a process that takes many many years ...

After all if we say we are fully integrated and what went before is just history, then what are we doing in this forum ?

And most women link self-esteem and confidence very much to looks, don't they ? 

So its reasonable that we as a group are doubly concerned about appearance ... I might be the "guy" (female sense) who Shell, BP, or Total contact to solve their intractable oil production problems but somehow its not the same level of validation as someone complimenting me on my dress or looks ... sad isn't it  :-\  ?

Laura x
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Sophia

Quote from: Kiera on July 20, 2007, 04:04:57 PM
Quote from: Sophia on July 20, 2007, 03:37:15 PMWhile I'm Machiavellian enough to take advantage of the boys' silly chivalry, it still does kind of irritate me that guys only do this for girls, instead of everyone helping everyone out.

Hehehehe I'm evil.
Sophia, you have no idea! I live in The South where "gentlemen" defer to women everywhere they go, constantly. . . 1'st on the bus, give up seat if standing, oh let me help you with bags, etc, etc, BUT if the company hires women to to a job side by side with these "gentlemen" and they don't feel "a women" can do the same job as them adequately (which in the case of my job is perhaps part true) then Oh, You Ought to Hear the constant bitching and complaining that goes on then with bad language not being unheard of in their presence either.

Point Is -> is this hypocritcal or indeed is all this "fussing over" simply a way of keeping women firmly in their place


Considering what I am doing (stealth) I Am Very Evil Indeed Too!

My Policy -> EQUAL STANDING FOR EQUAL PAY! What a "damn yankee" notion! :icon_bunch:

It does seem to be a method to keep us in "our place" so to speak, but I know of a lot of guys who were genuinely taught that not doing these things for girls makes you a rude jerk. No kind of sexism included either.

I think I'm a bit more evil, because a lot of guys do it to butter girls up and get us to be more likely to sleep with them. I just fail to mention that they have no chance with me and take full advantage of their goodwill attempts.

^_^

Posted on: July 22, 2007, 12:17:17 AM
Quote from: Kiera on July 21, 2007, 09:10:01 AM
I'm sorry but to be MTF and not really attracted to & fascinated by otherwise more-or-less normal male behavior is totally incomprehensible to me. :icon_bunch:

LOL, I can't understand being interested in men. Got to love those clashing perspectives eh? And I observed their behaviors plenty when I was trying to pretend to be one. I've learned everything I can about the admittedly hilarious cultural predisposition to talk to breasts and become silly sycophants just to get a cute grin and a hair flip from a girl and if they're lucky a one night stand.

;)
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Maud

Quote from: Laura Eva B on July 21, 2007, 01:07:18 PM
The rest of this post was so "butchered" by the moderators that I've deleted all just leaving my pics (which I guess speak louder than words ... even though unlike some others here I would never ever dream of claiming that I was remotely more attractive than other women of my age  :-\  !)

Me either tbh, although i'm fairly pretty and in general content with my looks I feel most girls are prettier than me




I can't see myself as a lad, in any way shape or form it just doesn't really compute but at the same time I'm not all that pretty compared to other 18 year old girls, I recon I get allot of positive attention out and about as I'm taken for being in my early 20's.
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mavieenrose

Quote from: gothique11 on July 21, 2007, 03:40:12 PM
Merv: Men smell confidence, and they do not approach women as openly who seem confident -- you're not easy, in other words. There are men who are attracted to confidence, and those aren't going to be the guys who are looking for a quick lay.

And, I agree with Rachel -- it comes to a point when passing is no longer on your mind and neither is seeking validation. I've stopped doing that a while ago, although I had to break myself out of the habit. In a way I got a feeling that it was too good to be true; then when I realized it was true, I stopped caring. So, my mind is more occupied with other things rather than looks, etc.

Hi Gothique,

You're looking great and your posts show you're clearly well on the road to leading a 'normal' life.  As far as I'm concerned that's the whole aim of the game...

I actually think it's ok to care about how you look, but the important thing is to know why you're doing it.

Personally speaking, I certainly try to make sure my eyebrows are sculpted, my lipstick's fresh, my skin's moisturised, my hair looks half decent, etc, etc... and I certainly still have the odd 'bad hair day', days when I feel far from desirable, or where I'm convinced I've put on 10 kilos and that I've no figure left, but the important thing to realise is that when we feel like this we're just facing the same issues and worries as the average woman out there.   

As far as I'm concerned, it's ok to care about how you look, but the important thing is to do be doing this for the same reasons as any woman, and not for specifically 'trans' reasons (like: "Oh no, my nose does not slope up the the 'ideal' x degrees from my top lip", or "Why is my hairline 3mm higher than the female average?", etc, etc...)

MVER XXX
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asiangurliee

Quote from: Ell on July 22, 2007, 01:12:07 PM
Quote from: asiangurliee on July 20, 2007, 02:49:28 PM
Women are objectified in a way men are not, but transsexuals also face a lot of dehumanization, so adding all that, the social worth of being a transsexual woman is not high at all for a lot of people, especially striaght men. 

women are objectified. ok. men aren't?

i'm not sure how it is in your world, but in the US, men are terribly objectified. Paul Newman, Tom Cruise, Keanu Reeves, Clint Eastwood, Marlon Brando, Cary Grant, all were or are sex symbols because of their looks. women are extremely selective and, as such, guys that are not all that good-looking are often ignored and pretty much worthless to them. it goes a step further. even good-looking guys, if they haven't got good jobs, are routinely considered bad choices for women -- women, who, themselves, do not have better jobs than the guys they are dismissing.
read an American romance novel. the men are always good-looking, well-built and capable of a deep emotional response.

and as for women, most of the good looking trans girls in the clubs are too busy objectifying themselves to be really aware of anything else going on around them.

we women just need to wake up and stop blaming males for something that they learned from us.

Men are objectified, but not as much as women are.

Consider beauty products and fasion for women. When you go to a clothing stores, you know that females have a lot more clothing choices and accessories to choose from, and how many men wear make up and how many women wear make up?

Of course I love to look at good looking guys and what not but it is not the same way men objectify women. Do women leer at men in public? Do they sexually harass a guy who is walking alone at night?  And women have to be scared of going topless on a hot summer day but men can go topless with little hassles.

I mean, men are objectified , but not like women and some women become used to this and learn to objectify themselves to get self worth, so of course women have to be responsibility for their actions as well.



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asiangurliee

Quote from: Ell on July 22, 2007, 03:10:35 PM
Quote from: asiangurliee on July 22, 2007, 02:42:59 PM
Men are objectified, but not as much as women are.

in fact, males are actually much less selective than females.

this choosiness is the root of objectifying: sorting through, judging a few as eligible, and dismissing all the rest as trash. women do this all the time. it is possibly the primary reason that men have such difficulty establishing respect for women. in their turn, men often have to go for advanced degrees, engage in fierce competition for the best-paying jobs, or develop special skills, as in art or music, to get the girls' attention.

you can't really blame people for being this way, it seems to be a normal occurrence in the process of evolution and natural selection.



You can also say that natural selection argues for the "survival of the fitness", it would be a republican's wet dream to cut all social services to poor people. You can't blame the winners for being greedy and wanting everything for themselves and letting the weak die off, that's just the winners being winners.

I don't think I ever said that men can change, I don't expect anyone to change, but we can change ourselves and be informed of how other people are and how they might think differently than us.

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Keira

I think women are much more selective than men.
They don't verbalize and put into immediate action
their objectification (which is what males do),
but ignoring you and  talking behind your back to other women,
that happens a LOT, and women talk a LOT about men, much
more than men will ever do.

I found out myself that I'm reverting to that kind of thing and very few men are considered eligible even for a innocent flirt; if that makes me look like the ice queen, so be it. I've found that many men, think a smile is an invitation to dance (metaphorically)... I hate that!


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asiangurliee

Well, women have to be selective! There are too many bad apples out there. heh. I don't mind flirting with anyone though and talking about boys is fun.
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Gabrielle

Quote from: gothique11 on July 21, 2007, 01:51:43 PM
A lot of TS people focus on passing (maybe too much), but much of that is looks, voice and other things. Although that is all important, there's a lot more to it. You can look the look, walk the walk, but still not get the part. There's a whole female culture to get, and that can only be experienced over time. There's the common connection that females have -- that only comes in time.

I live with 3 gg's, and I'm very social. For me, the social part and being with other females has been the most important part of my transition. I meet so many TS people who don't go to much of a degree of socializing and really suffer because of it. Socialization is actually a lot more important than looks, having boobs, getting a vaginal installation, all of the FFS you can afford, and perfecting your voice. The other things help, but socializing by far is a very important factor.

A natel female is born into the a womans world, we are not. There's a life time of stuff they have learned and have been ingrained into them. Sadly, with mtf, we've had the male world drilled into our heads. How you look and sound isn't going to fix that, neither is a surgical operation. It takes being full-time, being social, and sticking your neck out lots to hope to get to the point where others girls your age are at.

In other words: it's a lot of work. A woman is much more than looks, voice, and body parts. Much, much more.

I think there is a lot of truth in what I quoted, I've always had mostly female friends, and for some reason I have always been including in many conversations that my male friend would never have been nor prolly would not have wanted to be part of.

A key element in transistioning MTF is learning how to live in the social world women do, it is a much differnt world than a mans and I've made sure to immerse myself in it.  I feel as if I am getting a crash course these days a new social world through my core group of girlfriends.
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SusanK

Quote from: gothique11 on July 20, 2007, 02:14:55 PM
I have other TS friends who get jealous of me; I get hit on, I don't get clocked, I am treated like a woman and no one questions my femininity (even those who know my past).

Although, I feel pretty lucky that I seem to pass so well, there are a whole other bunch of issues and expectations that are thrown on me, too. It gets hard sometimes because others don't see it. When you pass well, the expectations are very high. Getting hit on is nice in one way for the flattery, but on the other hand it is annoying.

Ok, thanks for your post, it's appreciated. I would like to play devils advocate a little, and ask you if you feel so bad about passing so well, what's the alternative (not passing - being born female is the better choice but not a reality) and would you want it instead?

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not criticizing or anything remotely bad. It's just there are so many ts' - like me - who would love to be in your situation and pass so easily and rarely, if ever, get identified as ts. The alternative is far worse when you go out and everyone will judge you and think about you, and all you can do is try your best, but you know it won't be enough. Ever think about living like that every day? Thank your stars you are who you are, it could be worse or things can easily change.

Just my thoughts and I wish you well in your life.

--Susan--
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Rachael

golden windows proverb fits in RIGHT here...
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asiangurliee

Quote from: Ell on July 22, 2007, 05:01:33 PM
Quote from: asiangurliee on July 22, 2007, 04:46:03 PM
There are too many bad apples out there.

true. because of bad parenting, lack of education, poverty or [gasp!] a combination of all three. you gotta feel for people that have struggled through that kind of existence though. where would you be if that had happened to you?

-ell 

Alot of guys who don't respect women have alot of education, came from rich background and have loving parents, you shouldn't make so much assumption. There is a whole new issue about how men are raised and socialized in this culture.
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Sophia

Quote from: Kiera on July 22, 2007, 11:53:31 AM
Quote from: Sophia on July 22, 2007, 12:23:53 AMGot to love those clashing perspectives eh? And I observed their behaviors plenty . . .
LOL I suppose I never really did pay attention to what other males were doing. Too busy frustrating all the other girls . . .

lol, there was also the fact that a lot of the girls I knew liked to cause drama and issues. The guys were way more laid back and avoided the dramatic b.s. so I enjoyed being around them more. I'm lazy when it comes to drama and social image, and the guys I know don't care a whole lot about those things provided you have a good sense of humor and aren't a jerk.

I dunno if the guys would still treat me the same way as they did before, but ah well. I'd rather be me and have to seek out new friends then not be me with the old.

Quote from: Kiera on July 22, 2007, 11:53:31 AM
Quote from: Mawd on July 22, 2007, 02:07:14 AMI can't see myself as a lad . . . but at the same time I'm not all that pretty compared to other 18 year old girls
au contrar Mawd! I'd trade looks with you! (see young pic of me drab in gallery)  ;)

I'm inherently lazy and rather not have to work on changing now, along with the few added years for sure . . . ;D

Attitude, attitude, attitude! :icon_bunch:

I assert here and now that Mawd is hot. And therefore lacks all right to call herself less pretty then other 18 year old girls.

^_~
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Rachael

upper class and backgrounds = more established cultural steriotyping...


but classwars and disrespect has little to the trouble of passing well. Like people who havent even considered im not female, so i cant be vulnerable or go to friends about my troubles in transition, because they just dont know...
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Rachael

no, that the house accross the valley has golden windows from yours, but when you get there, yours has the golden windows... grass is always greener etc...
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Sophia

I misread that as golden showers at first.

You should of seen the horrified expression on my face.

:o
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Rachael

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