I don't know. I'm out to my partner since I'm pre-everything. The fact that he and most of the people in my life know the pre-transition me kills me a little bit. Sometimes I want to move to a new province post-transition and start over, without the weight of physical and social dysphoria on my shoulders.

The question of disclosure is a tricky thing for me. I guess if a long term partner asked I wouldn't say no, but I'd definitely test the waters early into any relationship. At the same time, I'm a firm believer in treating people the way they want to be treated. If I don't like talking about my history, any aspect of my history and not just my trans history, I would expect my partner to respect that and I'd do the same for them as well. Personally, I do see my being trans as a birth defect of sorts. Ever hear of polar gynandromorphy? An animal-usually an insect-born with the head and brain of one sex and the body of another? I view my condition as something along the same vein (though yours may not be, and that's cool too). So, I don't consider simply not talking about my transition lying, though outright denying ever going through it if asked about it would be.

When I really think about it, the words 'lying', or 'telling the truth' in regards to nondisclosure kinda rub me the wrong way; it's as if they imply that I'm not really my identified gender, like when people use the term 'real name' in regards to a trans person's birth name. Tell me the truth, what's your real gender? That's just my own knee-jerk reaction to it though, I know gender identity and the act of transitioning are two different things-but cis people don't always know that, which is what worries me. I am who I am. I'm not trying to fool anyone.

I guess, if my SO broke up with me tomorrow, I'd just stay single. Don't get me wrong, not being sulky here, I am actually cool with that since it's less hassle. I wouldn't have to worry about disclosure, how my partner would view me, them 'finding out', dying inside if they did, dying inside if the pressure got to me and I told them myself, etc. etc. Add all that to the usual stresses one faces in a relationship and yeah. Don't think I could deal with all that at once.

A life of celibacy would totally be worth it in exchange for a kickass beard though.

QuoteA life of celibacy would totally be worth it in exchange for a kickass beard though.

Of course! I shall take my beard as my lawfully wedded beard! Why didn't I think of it before?

In The UK it's a criminal matter not to disclose.

Quote from: Zambie on December 07, 2013, 01:33:20 AM
When I really think about it, the words 'lying', or 'telling the truth' in regards to nondisclosure kinda rub me the wrong way; it's as if they imply that I'm not really my identified gender, like when people use the term 'real name' in regards to a trans person's birth name. Tell me the truth, what's your real gender? That's just my own knee-jerk reaction to it though, I know gender identity and the act of transitioning are two different things-but cis people don't always know that, which is what worries me. I am who I am. I'm not trying to fool anyone.

I get your point. for me it not about telling about gender but more about telling about other stuff in my life.
I think my life have been pretty much infected by me being trans in good and bad ways so if a person didn't knew about me being trans (which I got many friends who dont) then it means theres certain details I cant tell or cant tell all exactly.
giving an exemple I went to "girl-groups" when I where a kid for a couple of years and I still have a friend from the time, if people would ask me where we knew eachother from or what we had done together. I wouldnt be able to answer that tuthfully, who would bug me.

I understand people who dont want to dig up in the past, theres also certain details I just want to forget, but I think unlike some of the users here I have felt rather opposite as my trouble was not to be "stealth" but to be allowed to be open in the first place.

Quote from: Akira21 ♡♡♡ on December 07, 2013, 04:42:45 AM
In The UK it's a criminal matter not to disclose.

yeah but it sucks..

Quote from: Akira21 ♡♡♡ on December 07, 2013, 04:42:45 AM
In The UK it's a criminal matter not to disclose.

Wow, you're right! I hadn't heard of this!!

Wow, what an interesting discussion. I don't agree with it, but that's kind of what makes it interesting to me. I think LH and I are on the same page here of perhaps embracing being trans*. It seems like a small percentage of the population here ,though funny thing not so much in the rather large support group I am in. Now to the topic. I see the way of explaining it problematic. Even though I don't see it this way I don't really see it as lying either. But the thing is you are not the spouse and you don't know how they would see it. I think in some cases *they* would see it as lying. Plus you would have to either have cut off ties with your family (or they would have to) or everyone would have to agree to your presentation of the situation so you don't have some kind of situation that you would not think of. It's not things you think about that cause trouble, it's what you don't think of.

Funniest line so far: Take care of his micropenis, it may be small but it's powerful. LOL.

--Jay

Yeah, see to me, I already cut off ties with everyone I knew pre-transition. Wasn't that much people anyways. lol Except for my family of course, but they are 100% supportive and all which is cool. My mum understands the issue about baby pictures and stuff and said we could get rid of most of them in which I appear obviously female if I ever wanna show pictures of myself when I was younger to a SO. So for me there wouldn't have been as much risk I think in not disclosing, than some others. I was lucky to begin transition early, managed to get a name change before I got my first job too so I don't really have any records that I can think of right now that are under my previous name even.

To me, it's one thing if it is a casual date, one night stand, etc. I don't think there is a reason to tell necessarily. But for your life partner, you omit say living your life in a female body for ___ years and going thru the kinds of things many of us go thru. It seems like with a life partner you want the most honest open relationship possible. Lying by omission, regardless of how you see yourself, is still lying.

--Jay

Quote from: Orange Creamsicle on December 05, 2013, 01:22:30 AM
hmmm I don't know...I know it would be decreasing the dating pool by a whole lot, but I'm not sure I'd want to be with someone who has an issue with someone being transgender.

this.

Sure I don't feel like in that situation it is wrong for you to fudge the truth a little bit, but I know for me that if she actually gave a ->-bleeped-<- why I had the surgeries I had ect. it wouldn't be a worthwhile relationship for me. 

I may fudge it for a month or so, though, if someone is super hot and I know they otherwise wouldn't be down.  =p

If it's just a one night stand, I wouldn't bother telling her as it's irrelevant.

If it's someone I'm getting into a serious relationship with though, I would absolutely tell her. My reasoning is that I don't get into relationships unless they're someone I could see myself spending the rest of my life with. When I'm in a relationship, I want to be able to tell her anything. I wouldn't like having to slightly modify my stories from childhood and such. I don't think people need to tell their partners everything, but this is a pretty big thing to keep from someone. If I didn't tell her, I'd never feel comfortable visiting my family together, I'd always be worried that pics from childhood might come up or something. It just seems very stressful to not tell them. Also I wouldn't want to dedicate a large chunk of my life to someone who would have an issue with my trans status, easier to just tell them before the relationship begins.

QuoteMy perspective is that if I were in someone else's shoes and found out something like that I might feel like that person I loved so deeply and thought I knew so well, didn't trust me enough to tell me the truth. The truth has a funny way of popping up. .

My last relationship ended like this.  I felt that I had shared everything about myself (including this); yet he could not trust me with more mundane (to me) issues.


Jay

i would need to tell my partner if it was  along term thing just because being trans really has shaped my past. even though i don't identify as trans its still a part of me. but if i was just having a casual thing i wouldn't tell them i was trans id tell them i had birth defects or something.

I think being honest about it is important. We can describe it as 'hormone problems' and 'birth defects' all we like, but I feel that's stretching the truth a bit too much. As far as I'm concerned, if my SO's feelings towards me were affected by my trans status in any way, I'd have to reconsider if she was the woman I wanted to be with - our values would be too different. By hiding that status, I wouldn't know what she actually thought. As well as that, there are practical concerns - family and friends from before transition, explaining scars, hiding letters from doctors?

If it's just a one night stand or a casual fling, I don't see the point though.

Quote from: Akira21 ♡♡♡ on December 07, 2013, 04:42:45 AM
In The UK it's a criminal matter not to disclose.

Does that just mean you have to disclose to your partner or do you have to disclose to employers and everyone else too? I know this is off topic but now I'm curious. When is it a criminal matter not to disclose in the UK?

I think this is the story that gets most of the attention: http://m.dailykos.com/story/2013/04/06/1199629/-Jailed-for-failure-to-disclose-trans-status

the santa clause myth is replicated generation after generation.  we lie to children, though we've been lied to.  Because there is a greater truth in the lie--the parable teaches children the power of generosity and helps them understand the power and place of gift giving in life, as adults.  It is a lie that teaches them empathy.  That is the paradox I want to bring out about the juxtaposition for this topic.  Our memory of that amazing benevolent being that gives so generously, has life-long implications for our appreciation of giving.

So, I believe that moralities operate on multiple levels.  Trans-gendered morality, I would argue, transcends conventional morality (it must because it is an experience not shared by everyone, and so insights originate from within this community) and so, there are ideas about 'lying' that, for this discussion, need to be 'fathomed' on two levels: the child not aware of Santa's truth, and the adult looking back upon the child who was lied to.

For the trans-gendered community, they have the wisdom of having lived through and suffered from societal lies about trans-genderism.  That has to mean something about decisions about disclosure.

So, my short answer, then, is that I do not think that 'lying' to decide not to tell everyone everything, no more than 'lying' is the right word to characterise the Santa Clause parable.  I think a person listening to us, needs to be ready to know and accept a deeper truth.  If they're not, then that has big implications for relational functioning.  And so that timing of the sharing of truth, trans-gendered wisdom, their preparedness and readiness are decisions for trans-gendered people to make.

Quote from: stavraki on December 21, 2013, 09:47:57 PM
the santa clause myth is replicated generation after generation.  we lie to children, though we've been lied to. Because there is a greater truth in the lie--the parable teaches children the power of generosity and helps them understand the power and place of gift giving in life, as adults.  It is a lie that teaches them empathy. That is the paradox I want to bring out about the juxtaposition for this topic. Our memory of that amazing benevolent being that gives so generously, has life-long implications for our appreciation of giving.

I must have missed the whole point of the Santa Claus lie when I was a kid because frankly, I felt betrayed when I found out that my parents had lied to me. It was a terrible thing to go through. I felt that I had been made a fool of because in a way, I had been. When my parents lied that Santa was real I didn't question what they told me because I loved them and put all of my trust into them no matter how implausible the Santa myth seemed. When I finally found out that my parents hadn't let me in on their little game of deception I was crushed and embarassed. I was sad that the people I loved and put so much faith in had kept up such a useless lie, angry that they hadn't trusted me enough to let me in on the secret, and embarassed because I felt that they viewed me as a naive idiot who would actually believe such an implausable thing which I did. It became difficult for me to believe in anything at all including religion. I developed a chip on my shoulder and became a guarded skeptic about everything. Of course, I couldn't articulate all those feelings then but when I reflect I can see the damage it caused me as a child. That's a pretty sad thing for an 8 year old to go through. If I had known that it was my parents who had bought me all those gifts and worked so hard to give me a nice Christmas every year maybe I would have appreciated them and enjoyed the holidays much more. After the truth came out though, I was sour about it every Christmas until I was old enough to just shrug it off.

So I guess my Santa experience is one huge metaphor for how a lot of people would feel if their partner wasn't open with them about being transgender or even just about things in general. Imagine having those feelings of sadness and betrayal on an adult level when you suddenly find out that the person you've loved and trusted has been unnecessarily hiding something from you. (I'm just using "you" as a general term here to put the reader in the mindset of someone feeling these things.) Maybe you don't even have a problem with the fact that they're transgender. Afterall, why should you if you've loved them without even knowing? But you sure as hell are going to have a problem with the fact that they didn't trust you enough to be open and honest with you in the first place. It's not a good feeling to have someone hide things from you because they think you can't handle knowing the truth either. You'll have to wonder what else they aren't telling you because they think you can't handle it. Perhaps you'll also feel that if they had just been open and honest with you, you would have appreciated your relationship so much more because the fact that they confided in you would have shown that they've placed a lot of their trust in you.

I think people have instincts for knowing what kinds of truths are going to trigger pathology in the perceiver.  For the genital configurations of the trans-gendered community, this strikes the prejudices of a gender-locked society, head-on squarely.

I have empathy for the minority group in this instance.  My close people may know about the mangled state of my genitals and how that occurred.  And I reserve the right to use my judgment to decide who is worthy of knowing the truth.  I judge you, first, about the quality and capacity of your empathy faculty, to tolerate ideas discordant with conventional realities.  You will tell me where you hit a limit about what you think is 'normal'.  If you fail the 'empathy test', you don't get to know my private truths.  That's what having an 'inner circle' is all about.  Not telling a prejudiced person a private truth about yourself is not lying.  It's making a decision to respect and protect yourself by keeping someone unempathic out of your personal space.  We get hurt by those close to us rejecting something fundamental about us.

For the person who feels betrayed about 'not' knowing the truth, earlier, I wonder if they need to scrutinise themselves, and, before centring on their own demand and need for truth, take a moment to see this, first, from the perspective of the disadvantaged minority group--with one of the highest suicide rates in the civilised world.  I don't think it is lying to make a decision to disclose at your own rate.  As far as I'm concerned, that gives them great leniency in this area.

Not telling is not necessarily lying not to tell the person you are having a relationship with that you are transgender.    However, what you tell the person you are in a relationship depend upon how old you are and what stage you are in your life cycle.    The question of your ability to bring children into the world, may well become an issue and then you will have to tell your partner you are infertile, unless you had your sperm or eggs put in fertility banks, which will again take some explaining.

Since I am in my sixties and in a partnership with another person while we raise our 10 year old son and am not into casual relationships,  for myself, I accept that no matter how I change my body to appear more effeminate,  for many who know me I will be a transgender lady.   To acquaintances who see me as a lady,  I don't feel that I have to out myself.    Others whom I live with will do that. 

But I am what I am, a lady.   I am not what others think I am.    But, this is just the world I live in and I helped create.   I am responsible for my choice, which to my code of honor is not a choice,  to stay in the relationships I involved myself in until they come to their natural end.   Relationships are not all sunshine and lollypops, but have all of the elements that those whom climb Mt. Everest experience.

I have never, climbed Mt.  Everest,  but in my later years I walked out of Canyon de Chelly, with much shortness of breath and achy muscles.   And I spent much of my working life in front of many different classrooms of children, so I have a rough idea.   Raising ten children with two different spouses has many of the aspects that climbers of Mt.  Everest must experience.

What I think is that you do not have to explain to everyone you have a relationship with that you are transgender,  but it is important to know how they feel about being involved with transgender individuals emotionally.    This is only for you to look out for yourself emotionally.  Why put yourself in the same position of fear of exposure you had when you were first dealing with being transgender and were afraid of how those you had relationships with would feel about you?

Of  course people in relationships don't tell each other everything about their pasts, but if they really love each other,  if they find things out they don't like about each other,  they will be able to forgive and forget.   How would feel if you found out your spouse was a wanted felon and hid it from you for 20 years, and they it became public and they were arrested?

Now being transgender is in no way comparable to being a wanted felon,   but some people feel that strongly about it, however wrong that is.   

One of my blessings in being transgender and growing up in an alcoholic family is that I have become more tolerant of other people's short comings and temperments, sometimes too much so.  My response to finding out some one I was having a relationship is was a wanted felon,  I would probably think, "So, what else is new.  It's pare for the course."

There is no one right answer for anyone and many people are becoming more accepting these day.  At least they don't immediately stone you to death when they find out you are transgender.   I get a lot of so what's, even from the police, your life style is your choice.   But I have found that living in Florida as a senior age grandma, that older people for the most part are just invisible.

Each individual has to decide for themselves when it is important for them to out themselves as transgender,  if they are not already out.   There is not right or wrong answer.    There is either some degree of happiness or some degree of sadness and grieve.   And one is stuck with accepting whatever outcome happens.





  Everybody else lives in a world