I'm going to refer to the very first sentence (after 'Hi') of this thread:

QuoteI am trying to get a sense of how Men & Woman think of us tweeners & neithers.

This sentence means a lot since it is the one phrase that explains everything and all about this poll with sincere, and rightful expectations.

Would the outcome be blurred if Androgynes voted? Naturally, and I expect none did, and I even expect that Z would remove their vote if it made others feel more at ease and/or if they believed it would increase the reliability of this poll's outcome.

This, however, isn't a battefield; not a place to drive people up the fench or whatsoever.. If someone asks you which icecream flavour you like better; chocoloate, strawberry or vanilla, then you don't punch your neighbour down for liking a different flavour, right? Although the question asked is of  a more serious nature, it as well doesn't represent a thesis.
And, even though I enjoy how some and several are reflecting on their answers, I hope they keep in mind not to offend anyone, and that the purpose of this thread is to gather information for a report rather than a research paper.

Honestly, when I look through this thread I encounter some sour taste, and I'm not even looking at the votes while experiencing this. Additionally, I don't know where it is coming from or why it's even there. Nevertheless, if at any point this somewhat escalates I ask for Rebis to delete this thread since its integer intention would be lost, disgarded and unrecognisable.

These were the two cents of a peacekeeper, not a soldier, and perhaps to only serve as a prevention.

Cheers.

QuoteWould the outcome be blurred if Androgynes voted? Naturally, and I expect none did, and I even expect that Z would remove their vote if it made others feel more at ease and/or if they believed it would increase the reliability of this poll's outcome.

Yes, I'll remove my vote if people wish... sorry... I didn't mean to mess up the results. Of course, for all I know, my electronic vote was counted for Buchanon instead of Gore >

While it's hard to read posts of people who feel we don't exist, for the most part I'm pleased to see results that most people either believe who we are or are interested in learning more about us.

One reason I voted. In 1993 I was diagnosed TS and a couple of years later I made a difficult choice not to proceed further. I've been other/neither gender ever since. Recently I've identified as androgyne, since it seemed to best explain this non-gender space I'm in. Like many other androgyne persons, I continue looking deeper and questioning everything. At any point in time I could decide to transition again, get the letter from my old therapist updated and proceed. So maybe I'm androgyne, maybe not. Maybe I'm TS, maybe not. I'm still trying to figure it all out... I'll let you know when I get there, lol. 

Zythyra

Quote from: zythyra on August 07, 2007, 06:59:43 AM
I've been other/neither gender ever since. Recently I've identified as androgyne, since it seemed to best explain this non-gender space I'm in.

This seems to fit with both the position that 'androgyne' is a possible gender identity and the one that it is merely a matter of gender expression. It also shows that 'identity' is not that clear-cut a term, either.

To take myself as an example (because it's much harder to look into someone else's mind), there is a part in me that is quite decidedly female. That part feels like what has been described as 'gender identity'. On the other hand, after quite a bit of introspection, both intellectual and emotional, I've come to a conclusion that there are also several traits in me that are male, and that both the female and the male traits really are me, not just a fake. In that sense, I identify as some sort of a mix of the two genders. It's not just gender expression, but it's not quite what is usually meant by gender identity either.

That said, there seem to be also people who really consider themselves androgyne in terms of 'gender identity' in the classical sense. I'm not one of them, though; like some others I've just given up trying to become purely either gender. But then, I often have more than one flavour of ice cream at once, too. 

Returning to the topic, I'd really like to know why some here don't accept the possibility of androgyne identity. Anyone want to share their opinions in a bit more detail?

  Nfr

QuoteThis seems to fit with both the position that 'androgyne' is a possible gender identity and the one that it is merely a matter of gender expression. It also shows that 'identity' is not that clear-cut a term, either.

For me it's more of an identity, how I feel on an internal level, and also ways in which I relate to other people. I live in a rural area, so expressing a flamboyantly androgynous appearance isn't a reality, much as I would enjoy expressing myself that way.

QuoteReturning to the topic, I'd really like to know why some here don't accept the possibility of androgyne identity. Anyone want to share their opinions in a bit more detail?

Even as an androgyne, it took me years to realize that the definition encompassed the internal sense of self, as opposed to only appearance.

Zythyra

Quote from: zythyra on August 06, 2007, 10:30:46 PM
PS, I'm spokesperson for one androgyne only, moi.

I'm sorry, Zythyra,  I only heard you say "I'm spokesperson".  I guess you're it.

Hee hee hee hee hee

QuoteI'm sorry, Zythyra,  I only heard you say "I'm spokesperson".  I guess you're it.

Hee hee hee hee hee

Rebis, You could regret this  >

Hear ye, hear ye! Now that I, the honorable Zythyra (all bow down on one knee, no, the other knee silly, and send cash) am the official grand androgyne spokesperson.... blah blah blah... I pronounce that in my quingdom, no, in my keendom, hmmmm, well anyway, everyone shall renounce all gender, for there is no male, there is no female, all for none and none for all! Also in this fabulous quingdom, we reject all things vanilla in favor of chocolate, the one true flavor...............   

OK, sorry everyone, the power was starting to go to my head. I'll stop now.

Zythyra

PS, I have removed my vote.

Quote from: no_id on August 07, 2007, 03:19:09 AMIf someone asks you which icecream flavour you like better; chocoloate, strawberry or vanilla, then you don't punch your neighbour down for liking a different flavour, right?

You mean you aren't supposed to beat up people for liking different ice cream flavors?!?

OH NOES!

*hides from the cops*

Quote from: Sophia on August 07, 2007, 02:37:58 PM

Quote from: no_id on August 07, 2007, 03:19:09 AMIf someone asks you which icecream flavour you like better; chocoloate, strawberry or vanilla, then you don't punch your neighbour down for liking a different flavour, right?

You mean you aren't supposed to beat up people for liking different ice cream flavors?!?

OH NOES!

*hides from the cops*

[Mental note 3.6: bring kevlar and helmet when running into Sophie.]

Quote from: zythyra on August 07, 2007, 08:57:34 AM
Also in this fabulous quingdom, we reject all things vanilla in favor of chocolate, the one true flavor...............   

Can I have a special exemption and a permit for vanilla-flavoured chocolate? Pretty please?

  Nfr

I had fig ice cream today. Nearly got punched by a spaniard who preferred the kiwi.

I didn´t vote, but I made a comment so I wouldn´t lose this thread. If I were to vote I would say it can be a gender identity, but it is one that would have to be learned and adopted. Like being a musician or a painter or a writer. There are natural inclinations but they have to be worked and explored and internalised before they become identity.

So I would say it is an expression, my identity at present is male. I was born such and raised such, and having no real example as a child of any androgynes, I learnt myself to be such. Now I am learning that I am much better fit as androgyne, and am so learning to internalise that expression.....

Also, I can accept TS not believing in androgyny. If you had lived with your life focused for your desire to jump a huge gulf in gender, would you believe there are some people happily living in the dark down there? I wouldn´t.

Quote from: Pica Pica on August 07, 2007, 03:07:00 PM
I had fig ice cream today. Nearly got punched by a spaniard who preferred the kiwi.

There's fig and kiwi ice cream?

*wants to try it so bad!*

Quote
Also, I can accept TS not believing in androgyny. If you had lived with your life focused for your desire to jump a huge gulf in gender, would you believe there are some people happily living in the dark down there? I wouldn´t.

Maybe I'm just surprisingly open minded?

Quote from: Pica Pica on August 07, 2007, 03:07:00 PM
I had fig ice cream today. Nearly got punched by a spaniard who preferred the kiwi.

   I thought I told you to carry a sword.  They come in handy for uses other than stabbing dough nuts.  I just don't know what I'm going to do with you.   

   Well have fun, but keep your fists up high.

Quote from: Ell on August 07, 2007, 09:23:06 PM

Quote from: Rebis on August 06, 2007, 12:23:45 AM
'Night of the living dead' early graveyard scene.

that was a good scene!!!

in some ways androgyny seems to be the easiest thing to be, and also the hardest. it would be a big plus if you didn't have the same kind of extreme identity crisis that many transsexuals have.

Personally, I do have that kind of crisis.  Every day.

Quotei define that kind of crisis as 'the self rejecting the self'. it's an extremely painful sort of...depression, i guess you'd call it, clinically, but really it's more like self torture, which is both extremely painful and very difficult to shut down.

Been there.  Done that.  Ask my fiancée.  I spend a lot of time in that mental state.

Quotei believe it was this specific aspect of suffering that led Doctor Benjamin to the conclusion that transsexuals could not really be cured, per se, without allowing them to transition. so if you've never experienced that kind of suffering, i salute you.

I have, unfortunately.

Quoteon the other hand, where is androgyny covered in the SOC?

It's not.

Quotewhat legal (and medical) remedies do you need, if any, to transition to androgyny?

I'd KILL for my gender identity to be legally recognised so that my sex marker could be removed from my birth certificate, my passport, my driver's license...

I desperately need a hysterectomy.  I want top surgery to remove my breasts.  I am gender neutral, in my head.  The idea of being male feels wrong.  The idea of being female feels wrong. 

Quotedo any such remedies exist?

Since it's not covered in the SOC, I'm subject to the same difficulties women have in pursuing hysterectomy.  General rules for elective hysterectomy?  30 years old.  Other methods of birth control have failed.  3 or more children.  In a stable relationship, preferably married.  Some doctors will do it without meeting those standards, but because apparently women cannot know their own minds, hysterectomy increases risk of malpractice suit.

As far as top surgery goes... I'm pretty much screwed.  I'd have to get diagnosed ftm. 

I don't believe in lying.  At all.  So that is impossible.  My other option?  Black market.

Disclaimer: Nero's opinion and his alone.

Yes, I do believe Androgyne is a valid gender identity. If a person can be born with the opposite gender brain to their body, why couldn't a person be born with a mixed gender brain?
Everything, especially in biology is not absolute.
I believe it may actually be more common than most people think. I think a lot of people identifying as TS are in fact androgynes, who knew they weren't their birth gender, so the only other alternative they were aware of was the opposite gender.
Zythyra and DeanO are examples of this. People who believed at first they were TS because they knew for a fact they weren't their birth gender, and then later realized that Androgyne suited them much better. Easier access to information on Androgyne and the acceptance that it is a valid gender identity may help people like Zythyra and DeanO come to a realization of themselves much easier and sooner.

That being said, I do think some androgynous males and females mistake behavioural traits for being androgyne, when it's nothing more than the person being their birth gender with an androgynous personality.

I don't really accept Androgyne as a gender alternative

Quote from: Ell on August 07, 2007, 09:23:06 PM

Quote from: Rebis on August 06, 2007, 12:23:45 AM
'Night of the living dead' early graveyard scene.

that was a good scene!!!

in some ways androgyny seems to be the easiest thing to be, and also the hardest. it would be a big plus if you didn't have the same kind of extreme identity crisis that many transsexuals have. i define that kind of crisis as 'the self rejecting the self'. it's an extremely painful sort of...depression, i guess you'd call it, clinically, but really it's more like self torture, which is both extremely painful and very difficult to shut down. i believe it was this specific aspect of suffering that led Doctor Benjamin to the conclusion that transsexuals could not really be cured, per se, without allowing them to transition. so if you've never experienced that kind of suffering, i salute you.

on the other hand, where is androgyny covered in the SOC? what legal (and medical) remedies do you need, if any, to transition to androgyny? do any such remedies exist?

-ell

   Hi Ell,

    I understand what you are saying.  I've been through that terrible pain and depression.  For some reason, i am in a good place right now.  I think it's because I'm here on this site and working with like minded individuals to understand myself.
    It helps knowing there are others like me.  I just wish they didn't have to suffer too.  I also am beginning to think that aging is helping me, but I'm not certain if it is or how it may be helping.  I am hoping my testosterone levels are dropping even though my doctor said they are normal (darn it).
   
   I used to NEED to have certain parts removed, but that seems to have calmed down at this time.  I still don't care if I have those parts or not, though.  I understand how Tay really does need medical attention because of how I've felt about myself.  I think the medical community doesn't really have an understanding of us.


Have fun,

Rebis

Quotein some ways androgyny seems to be the easiest thing to be, and also the hardest. it would be a big plus if you didn't have the same kind of extreme identity crisis that many transsexuals have. i define that kind of crisis as 'the self rejecting the self'. it's an extremely painful sort of...depression, i guess you'd call it, clinically, but really it's more like self torture, which is both extremely painful and very difficult to shut down. i believe it was this specific aspect of suffering that led Doctor Benjamin to the conclusion that transsexuals could not really be cured, per se, without allowing them to transition. so if you've never experienced that kind of suffering, i salute you.

I don't know how it is for other androgynes, but my levels of dysphoria were extremely intense, which is why I transitioned in the first place. FWIW, my therapists' diagnosis at that time was that I was/am TS, no question about it. When I made the decision to simply try and live as a non-op ts/andro/whatever and honor who I am, although my body is what it is, and my mind/spirit is something else, things seemed to get better. I still have my days of crisis though. How much of that is gender identity and how much is simply due to my feelings of not being able to safely be myself in a binary society? No easy answer.

Quoteon the other hand, where is androgyny covered in the SOC? what legal (and medical) remedies do you need, if any, to transition to androgyny? do any such remedies exist?

There is overlap regarding remedies. There are androgynes who opt for surgeries or HRT. There is currently no legal recognition of other genders besides m or f. I'd love if I could choose other for all my legal documents, passport, drivers license, etc.

QuoteCan I have a special exemption and a permit for vanilla-flavoured chocolate? Pretty please?

Sure thing, since you asked nice. I'm a benevolent ruler. Now I'm really curious about fig and kiwi ice cream. They sound like androgynous flavors.

Zythyra

Quote from: zythyra on August 08, 2007, 10:32:00 AM
Now I'm really curious about fig and kiwi ice cream. They sound like androgynous flavors.

Zythyra

I think that too.

Quote from: Nero on August 07, 2007, 11:23:44 PM
That being said, I do think some androgynous males and females mistake behavioural traits for being androgyne, when it's nothing more than the person being their birth gender with an androgynous personality.

Somehow this really seems to add up funny to what happened to me today.
To pull out a context: I was working at a company today to figure out whether or not I want to work there in the future, and somehow ended up cleaning things with some random girl I had never met before.

Somewhere along the conversation she asked me if I was good with technical things, and I just noted that I wasn't too bad at fixing things if they had to be fixed. She then questioned if perhaps I had a lot of T in my body, and I countered it stating that although my walk's more masculine, and I can fix things it probably had little to do with hormones. As I put it "I figured my parents just dumped a lot of everything in me to create one joyful chaos wherin I could decide for myself whether I'm a girl or a boy. In the end I'm really just neither, floating inside and outside as some lose projectile"

She took it as it was, without asking any questions (miracle, miracle although it's worth noting that she came from a large city, and easily chit-chatted about transsexuals and homosexuals), and I sensed that she really didn't see me as a butch lesbian or a boi or whatsoever at any point. However, she did bring up my androgyny by observing my behaviour and placing it in the stereotypical male and female boxes. That said; they really just are my personal skills, and I walk the way I feel comfortable, but it's still a funny notion one way or the other

no_id is now done rambling...

Quote from: Blanche on August 08, 2007, 12:46:19 AM
I don't really accept Androgyne as a gender alternative

Any particular reason why?