Quote from: Evelyn K on April 26, 2014, 06:26:50 PM
Give HRT some time. But I think for 95% of us in trans we need makeup to pass.

Unfortunately.

Like I said, you're in the top 15% in this place. And the top 3% WITHOUT MAKEUP!

Unofficial assessment mind you.

Thanks! You're right.  My therapist was reminding me eariler today that I haven't been on hrt too long and almost half of that was on a minimal dose compared to what most girls take.  I just want to have a life now.  I'm done being the "boy" who cries in his room all day hoping to be a girl. 

Thank you for the top 3 percent statement.  That makes me feel good even though I;m not really there, lol.  Thanks everyone and sorry for me being the emotional basket case I am. 

Yeah you are kind of emotional. You quite honestly are pretty far ahead compared to many of the gals here.

I think it's time to back your looks up with an ego. You more than qualify to have one. Ease up on yourself girlfriend... I don't know why you wallow in despair so much. It's unfounded.

I have to admit that I really like the websites of celebrities without makeup.  And like others have said, it should give us (and all cis girls) hope.  Mila Kunis is one of the most beautiful young actresses, and those non made up photos are borderline scary   

I'd recommend spending some time on YouTube watching makeup tutorials.  There are a bunch of them about how to do a minimalist look.  Bubzbeauty even has one for when you're sick but need to do a quick makeup job to run to the drugstore. 

Quote from: learningtolive on April 26, 2014, 06:23:40 PM
I guess I just don't like that I need make up in order to pass.  Okay, all girls need it to look pretty, but to pass?  That's generally not true.  Mila never looks like a boy.  I guess that's my issue.  I love makeup and it makes me feel better, but I don't like needing it just to be me.  Like it should be an accessory and not part of a costume, ya know?

Most likely you won't need it eventually, but at the moment, just to deal with beard shadow and to highlight other features that are still softening out, then yes maybe it wouldn't hurt. Personally I don't like that I need to put the stuff on either - I'm mid way through electro and still get some beard/mo shadow which I feel very self conscious about. The make-up smooths it away - once the electro is eventually over then I'm hoping I won't need to use it at all for most day-to-day stuff.

Make up can and should be fun. Costume? Maybe? I dunno. It doesn't have to be. I mean likewise I need to wear a wig, I'd rather not, but if I didn't I wouldn't pass at all, simple as that. But is it part of a costume? Sometimes I wonder if it is, but then there are plenty of women (cis and trans) who wear wigs for any number of reasons. Does that make it a costume piece, an accessory? I'd love not to wear it but feminine features or not I do not pass without it. So it is essential if I want to live my life as a woman. It was just a reality I needed to face if I wanted to transition.

Y'know, I know I keep harping on about my first tilt at transition (and I will shut up if you want me to), but I had a similar attitude - I wanted to not have to wear make up, I wanted to wear the cool andro/boy like clothes trendy girls my age were wearing but the minute I did I always got misgendered and then I'd get depressed about it. Rather than admitting I maybe needed to give some ground and not be so stubborn and maybe use a bit of foundation or not wear a particular cut of jeans or style of shoes I gave up instead.

All these pictures are before hrt. I'm in my 2nd weeks of HRT right now. Since I already look feminine naturally, I wonder if HRT will help me more with that or not. I also would like to get some hips and ass, hopefully that will come in later in my transition. Sigh! I have a lot of fat in my belly, that's all it goes to. Everywhere else I'm pretty normal to skinny.

Before shaved my hair off october of last year.


This one with no hair, I shaved it all of last year because I wanted to start all over.


Halloween of last year. It was fun. My first time actually dressing up for Halloween.


Me in bed without my makeup.


I had glue in extensions, but took them off after 2 days because it was bothering me and did not blend
with my short hair. I feel better with my natural hair because I can do anything with it and it doesn't
make me look too asian like the extensions does lol.


I have to admit, I love my legs. It's like the one thing people notice about me too.



Ok gotta put the hands in there too. Thanks god I have small hands and feet. Even though I'm 5'8"
My brother on the other hand is younger than me, bigger hands, feet, and height.

Quote from: learningtolive on April 26, 2014, 06:33:16 PM
Thanks! You're right.  My therapist was reminding me eariler today that I haven't been on hrt too long and almost half of that was on a minimal dose compared to what most girls take.  I just want to have a life now.  I'm done being the "boy" who cries in his room all day hoping to be a girl. 

  Absolutely give it time and don't stress about it.  I feel pretty lucky about my looks but you're better off in that department than I am.  I just went through a year of laser and half a year of ramping HRT and I was feeling so awesome about how my face and neck looked and how smooth it was after shaving.  Minimal makeup used too.  Now I moved on to electrolysis, and while I don't shave any longer I have to live with at times a very fuzzy face.  I realized right away that the amount of concealer required to hide all this hair would actually make me look worse and call more attention to it.  I understand that for the next little while I'm going to be 'trapped in the middle' between genders to some extent and I just have to live with it.  I've actually dropped makeup entirely for the moment.  I do feel awkward right now in a way I haven't felt for a long time but I'm better off not stressing about it.  There's no way to speed up the clock but the results will arrive soon enough.  Given that I also just started voice therapy I have more important lessons to learn right now in regards to passing until that time comes.

Quote from: FalseHybridPrincess on April 25, 2014, 01:25:13 PM
I feel like posting here too , mainly because Im in a really really wierd situation right now...
So when I go out somepeople gender me male some female , even if they hear my rather masculine voice...
When I look in the mirror I sometimes see a girl and sometimes a guy,,,you can imagine the dysphoria I get when I see a guy and the euphoria when I see a girl ...
Please give me honest opinions I want to know the truth...
Im not even trying to present female but I want to know wth does my appearance resemble...
these pics are make up free...unlike most pics that I have posted here,,,I consider this to be my androgynous mode
though I believe I look more masculine in pics than I normally do...

this one is with nicely done hair ready to go out


this one just a casual


and another casual


I really dont know how I look please help me understand

I'll be super honest... I'd have no idea how to gender you >.<

The first pic I think looks more male than female, but the other two I see a female more than a male. It's super confusing! Obviously though, you're attractive in both of them, I think that's the most important thing, but if I was on a contest and had to guess your birth-sex... I'd be in trouble, lol.

I think you're very ambiguous, there's absolutely nothing about you that screams "male!", but when I appraise your whole face it's super confusing! I think there's two things contributing to this... The countour of your cheeks and the width/shape of your chin. I'll explain why I think that is... Put your hand on your screen to cover your face in the picture, like if you were wearing a veil? Seeing only your eyes. Then slowly slide your hand down, once you start to uncover the cheeks, that's when the picture starts to become more ambiguous, at least in my opinion. Try it with different parts of your face, like covering everyhing above the mouth for example.

Actually, after doing it again, I don't even think the width/shape of your chin is an issue at all, it's just the cheeks that contrast with it... if your cheeks were fuller, your chin would appear rounder.

All in all, I think you really go both ways? Like, depending on the rest of your body, you could be gendered male or female, and I sincerely think you're way more likely to be gendered female if you present feminine.

Hope my analysis isn't offensive! I think I said it in another post, but you look super attractive. I see a lot of people obsessing over masculine/feminine features, when in reality beauty is not about that. Either the package's appealing, or it's not. Have you ever looked at Baywatch's cast? Each of those women have jaws that make them look like they've been chewing on concrete for a decade, yet they were sex symbols of their time and are very attractive. Like I said, it's not linear. Feminine features don't equate beauty, I see cisgirls all the time who look drab/dull and their face is all feminine... yet if you see a stunning woman, she's as likely to have one or another masculine feature as she is to looking entirely feminine. Beauty is about how the package comes together...

In the end, everything's interesting if you're interested in it, and you've an interesting face. Not just my opinion, I'd think this would be a general consensus, your face's pretty unique, which you should be proud of.

Hope this post was helpful... I think when cispeople look at each other, they're not thinking "that's male" or "that's female"... but more like "that's hot!" and "that's not!"... in your case, you're hot! =)

I think you should focus more on if you look good, rather than trying to define your looks as pertaining to either gender, because I think in your case you can easily be perceived as female if you want, just depends on the social setting... after that, you've the advantage of having an interesting face. I can't speak for others of course, but I'd imagine people who like women to be more attracted to you than an average cisgirl, because really, the average person isn't really attractive... Though take this comment at face-value, since I only saw your face in the pictures, I know nothing about your body or your voice, which also factor in (to a lesser extent).

Hope my "analysis" boosted your confidence, I kind of don't like posting here much, unless I think I can say something particularly helpful that others haven't said before...

@mermaid

wow thanks for this in depth analysis XD
Ive been waiting for something like this +rep of course...

Hhhm so I guess I do look like a hybrid after all XD
maybe I should take advantage of that XD and present differently each day for fun XD

About my voice , well I thought it was completely male ultil I had some people gendering me female after hearing it and I was like "wtf didnt you heard my voice" buuut I guess its androgynous too after all :/
And my body , I am tall for a girl 1.77cm but still in female normal range I guess , my shoulders are kinda broad but since I ve also got gendered female from behind I guess its not really an issue, im very thin too.

Overall you did boost my confidence I really needed that so thanks
Other people have told me that I am attractive but I guess the hate I developed for my body kinda prevents me from being able to see it  ...but things seem to improve everyday...

Im thinking that I should change my hair colour but I dont know what colour I should do XD

Quote from: Mermaid on April 27, 2014, 09:47:13 AM
I think when cispeople look at each other, they're not thinking "that's male" or "that's female"... but more like "that's hot!" and "that's not!"... in your case, you're hot! =)

I think this is a really good point, and this is why they say that confidence is a huge part of passing. If your attitude and mannerisms matches your hair, makeup, and clothes, then it doesn't matter that your (insert facial feature that's a little too masculine).

And all ciswomen have at least one feature they hate, it's just part of scrutinizing our looks which is something most men don't do.

IMO the only time it really does make a diffidence in passibility is when it's something testosterone-fueled that a ciswoman couldn't have -- low voice, receding hairline, beard shadow, etc.

Quote from: FalseHybridPrincess on April 27, 2014, 10:31:41 AM
@mermaid

wow thanks for this in depth analysis XD
Ive been waiting for something like this +rep of course...

Hhhm so I guess I do look like a hybrid after all XD
maybe I should take advantage of that XD and present differently each day for fun XD

About my voice , well I thought it was completely male ultil I had some people gendering me female after hearing it and I was like "wtf didnt you heard my voice" buuut I guess its androgynous too after all :/
And my body , I am tall for a girl 1.77cm but still in female normal range I guess , my shoulders are kinda broad but since I ve also got gendered female from behind I guess its not really an issue, im very thin too.

Overall you did boost my confidence I really needed that so thanks
Other people have told me that I am attractive but I guess the hate I developed for my body kinda prevents me from being able to see it  ...but things seem to improve everyday...

Im thinking that I should change my hair colour but I dont know what colour I should do XD

You really are well on your way.  I think hormones will continue to do wonders if you just give a little time.  In the meantime, makeup and continue voice training will likely help a lot.

I like your hair color, though I was wondering if you have ever thought about highlights?  Maybe it's just me, but I think they look great and it sort of enhances how our face is seen.

Quote from: Evelyn K on April 26, 2014, 06:09:48 PM
ltl, the more I see your photo's the more I think your fem. The line is so blurred that a simple tweek in lighting is probably all that would matter.

So many CIS gals look drab without makeup. What makes you different? (see where I'm going here?)

Mila Kunis for example

Yes. It is true.

Last year, some Chinese internet media revealed some interesting photos of Ms. Korea candidates, i.e., before and after makeup.



More photos: http://postfiles13.naver.net/20130626_220/2ch1999_1372235427924Pz6rW_JPEG/hu_1372235278_742643261.jpeg

Most entertainment celebrities look too much ordinary without deep makeup.

barbie~~

Quote from: Ms Grace on April 27, 2014, 02:07:18 AM
Most likely you won't need it eventually, but at the moment, just to deal with beard shadow and to highlight other features that are still softening out, then yes maybe it wouldn't hurt. Personally I don't like that I need to put the stuff on either - I'm mid way through electro and still get some beard/mo shadow which I feel very self conscious about. The make-up smooths it away - once the electro is eventually over then I'm hoping I won't need to use it at all for most day-to-day stuff.

Make up can and should be fun. Costume? Maybe? I dunno. It doesn't have to be. I mean likewise I need to wear a wig, I'd rather not, but if I didn't I wouldn't pass at all, simple as that. But is it part of a costume? Sometimes I wonder if it is, but then there are plenty of women (cis and trans) who wear wigs for any number of reasons. Does that make it a costume piece, an accessory? I'd love not to wear it but feminine features or not I do not pass without it. So it is essential if I want to live my life as a woman. It was just a reality I needed to face if I wanted to transition.

Y'know, I know I keep harping on about my first tilt at transition (and I will shut up if you want me to), but I had a similar attitude - I wanted to not have to wear make up, I wanted to wear the cool andro/boy like clothes trendy girls my age were wearing but the minute I did I always got misgendered and then I'd get depressed about it. Rather than admitting I maybe needed to give some ground and not be so stubborn and maybe use a bit of foundation or not wear a particular cut of jeans or style of shoes I gave up instead.

Grace, you've bee nothing but helpful.  I would never want you to shut up.  It's always nice to hear from those with more experience than I have.  I believe you have something to share and I'm glad you are doing that.

Quote from: NikkiRincon on April 27, 2014, 08:42:56 AM
All these pictures are before hrt. I'm in my 2nd weeks of HRT right now. Since I already look feminine naturally, I wonder if HRT will help me more with that or not. I also would like to get some hips and ass, hopefully that will come in later in my transition. Sigh! I have a lot of fat in my belly, that's all it goes to. Everywhere else I'm pretty normal to skinny.

Before shaved my hair off october of last year.


This one with no hair, I shaved it all of last year because I wanted to start all over.


Halloween of last year. It was fun. My first time actually dressing up for Halloween.


Me in bed without my makeup.


I had glue in extensions, but took them off after 2 days because it was bothering me and did not blend
with my short hair. I feel better with my natural hair because I can do anything with it and it doesn't
make me look too asian like the extensions does lol.


I have to admit, I love my legs. It's like the one thing people notice about me too.



Ok gotta put the hands in there too. Thanks god I have small hands and feet. Even though I'm 5'8"
My brother on the other hand is younger than me, bigger hands, feet, and height.

Honestly, I don't see any issues with your photos and you haven't even started hrt.  While this is just my opinion based on these photos and I can't say what things will be like, I'm not personally seeing any passing issues with what I see.  Give hrt some time and you will likely be feeling much better. 

Quote from: learningtolive on April 27, 2014, 12:49:43 PM
You really are well on your way.  I think hormones will continue to do wonders if you just give a little time.  In the meantime, makeup and continue voice training will likely help a lot.

I like your hair color, though I was wondering if you have ever thought about highlights?  Maybe it's just me, but I think they look great and it sort of enhances how our face is seen.

Thanks I too continue to believe that things will change,for both of us
oh btw , I dont do voice training ,at all ,I hate it I feel really uncomfortable and I cant even maintain the voice , the only way I could get a female voice is via surgey which btw I would love to... and yeah make up helps a lot but I rarely do a full face make up , I usually just put mascara ,sometimes though I feel like doing a fabulous one XD

hhhhhhhmmm highlights eh?
thats actually a brilliant idea...
I ll see what I ll do
but im really bored of my current hair XD

Quote from: FalseHybridPrincess on April 27, 2014, 05:02:26 PM
Thanks I too continue to believe that things will change,for both of us
oh btw , I dont do voice training ,at all ,I hate it I feel really uncomfortable and I cant even maintain the voice , the only way I could get a female voice is via surgey which btw I would love to... and yeah make up helps a lot but I rarely do a full face make up , I usually just put mascara ,sometimes though I feel like doing a fabulous one XD

hhhhhhhmmm highlights eh?
thats actually a brilliant idea...
I ll see what I ll do
but im really bored of my current hair XD

Voice takes time, but I think it's possible for all of us to train.  I mean hey, I've got a terrible voice and lately I'm getting taken as a girl on the phone without trying.

You could always try one of the sites that let you see different hair styles on your face.  I'm going to do that before I commit to a different style.  In any event, have fun with it.  There are so many styles that I'm sure you can find something unique for you.     

Just wanna throw out something that is not said enough around here: hormones take *years* to work. For some of you there might be rapid and pronounced change in the first 6 to 12 months. For many of us, changes still happen long after that. I've been on hormones for a little more than 10 years, and I *still* see changes on a yearly basis. Maybe I'm imagining it, but probably not. For what it's worth, I like how I look now more than I did 6-8 years ago. And I'm 40. Arguably this is something trans folks have to look forward to. We might like how we look more as we get older!

Also, you all look great already!! Really. I'm not just saying this to be supportive or whatever.

I know there's a lot of baggage with being "passable," and I do support anyone who wants to look like they "pass." But, really, it's such a subjective thing anyway, and way more to do with interaction rather than a photo or video. "Passing" is a not a yes or no thing, even if you subscribe to the concept (which I don't really). "Pass" as what? Y'all look great when you like how you look, "passable" or not.

kay

Quote from: kayg on April 28, 2014, 03:57:11 AM
Just wanna throw out something that is not said enough around here: hormones take *years* to work. For some of you there might be rapid and pronounced change in the first 6 to 12 months. For many of us, changes still happen long after that. I've been on hormones for a little more than 10 years, and I *still* see changes on a yearly basis. Maybe I'm imagining it, but probably not. For what it's worth, I like how I look now more than I did 6-8 years ago. And I'm 40. Arguably this is something trans folks have to look forward to. We might like how we look more as we get older!

Also, you all look great already!! Really. I'm not just saying this to be supportive or whatever.

I know there's a lot of baggage with being "passable," and I do support anyone who wants to look like they "pass." But, really, it's such a subjective thing anyway, and way more to do with interaction rather than a photo or video. "Passing" is a not a yes or no thing, even if you subscribe to the concept (which I don't really). "Pass" as what? Y'all look great when you like how you look, "passable" or not.

kay

Very Very well said Kayg. I personally do not even care for the term "pass," It makes how we look sound too much like some kind of a test, which, as you so well point out, it's not. Nor is being gendered correctly some kind of contest or race. IMO, all you girls are beautiful women. I would much rather see "gendered correctly," or "correctly Identified," or "gender appropriate," etc., etc. (There's gotta be a better term we can come up with rather than "pass"), used as terms when asking these type of questions.

Ally

It's the nature of people that you'll never get them to trade one syllable for five. If you want to get people to dump "pass" you'll need something shorter than "gendered correctly".

It's interesting. Look at any language and you can tell what's important to the native speakers just by what takes less time to say.

I have no idea what a shorter, less volatile word would be, but I wonder if we need one at all. I've been special, an outlier of one sort or another my entire life. Correcting my physical sex as much as possible to match my gender isn't gonna change that and I don't want it to.

Kay, thanks for sharing that. I'm in my late 30's, so I've learned to respect processes in life.  But even I'm looking at transition as a 2-3 year process.  It's good to know that 10+ years later, estrogen will still be working its magic.  But at this point it's tough to think beyond the 2-3 years I've mapped out in my head.

Whatever your definition is of passing (correct gender identification), we can probably all agree on the definition of another single syllable word -- clocked.  :-/

This seems like a neat site. Determines facial features and shows how much male/female:

https://www.skybiometry.com/

Quote from: Dee Marshall on April 28, 2014, 01:35:48 PM
It's the nature of people that you'll never get them to trade one syllable for five. If you want to get people to dump "pass" you'll need something shorter than "gendered correctly".

It's interesting. Look at any language and you can tell what's important to the native speakers just by what takes less time to say.

I have no idea what a shorter, less volatile word would be, but I wonder if we need one at all. I've been special, an outlier of one sort or another my entire life. Correcting my physical sex as much as possible to match my gender isn't gonna change that and I don't want it to.

I see your point Dee very much so. Though it may not be possible, I'd love to use a word/term for these discussions that doesn't sound so much like we passed a test, etc. I've no doubt you understand what I'm getting at. I very much enjoy reading these threads and looking at before and after photo's. Everyone here inspires me as I undertake the same wonderful experience. I just hate that it sound so much like a contest, that's all.