Quote from: Rainbow Brite on May 04, 2014, 10:18:15 PM
If it's so easy to be trans and feel content with yourself, why are you here? Just because you couldn't handle it doesn't mean the others on here are on a path to failure. If you can't find contentment, that is your issue to deal with, your path to pursue.
I couldn't care about social roles, gender roles and how most of the world perceives me. I transitioned because my body map did not match what I knew to be right. I transitioned to be me, an authentic me and not some git who was angry at what nature had done to me.
You must live a sheltered life if you think that people fit into a binary. Nature doesn't work that way. If it did, we wouldn't have sea slugs that could photosynthesize like plants, or male seahorses that gave birth.
If you want to fit your binary, thats on you. Don't make the mistake that Trans people are sheeple and with suddenly realise they are doing something wrong. The biggest reason for transition was stated quite eloquently by William Shakespeare:- This above all: to thine own self be true.

Just to let you know Abbyxo is against the binary, not for it.  One of her big points here is for the abolishment of a harmful binary system.

Before everyone explodes, please remember we are all on the site for one thing and that's support.  This should be true no matter where you fall on the spectrum.  Please don't let this turn into a war when we really shouldn't be fighting each other.  Personally, I felt very judged as a binary today and that hurts considering all the support that I try to give on this site to everyone regardless of where one sits on that spectrum (I know I'm a mess up and can't do much to help other people but I try really hard regardless), but I really hope we can all move passed this discussion.  We all have the right and freedom to be who we are, whatever that may be.  Please let's support each other for who we are and not battle against each other.  Please. 

Quote from: Jen on May 04, 2014, 09:44:34 PM
I am sure I didn't make myself clear.  I am saying I happen to fit into the binary model, for whatever reason.  I don't even understand fundamentally why.  Maybe I was born to be this way, maybe it's what I wanted and that bias drove me to be this way, and it worked out.  I don't even know.  I don't even know if it is relevant, in fact I think probably it isn't.  But I am this way.  I do fit the binary model.  I can't help it, or if I can idc it's who I am and I am happy with it.  I felt like people were saying it wasn't okay to be how I am.  I don't appreciate anybody telling me that.  I don't ask much from anybody, but I do ask, I am adamant actually, that you let me be who I am and not try to make me feel bad about it.

The issue of the binary model in society is a separate issue from fitting it, or, in other words, somebody telling me I should not be how I am.  I get that the whole system is a social construct and that it causes great, great harm for people that don't fit into it, psychological and physical, and it's awful.  If you read what I said, you will see that I never said I am in favor of this prevailing model, because I wouldn't say that, I just said I fit it, because I do.  Does the binary system benefit me personally because I happen to fit into it?  Maybe in some ways.  It also has lost me many loved ones because they felt that just by being trans I was challenging it, and therefore I was now human garbage.  It doesn't feel good.  Actually it really hurts.  I will never tell you the social construct of gender should be adhered to, or that the whole system isn't harmful.  That was never my point.

However, don't tell me I can't be who I am.  The whole point of transition is to find who we are and be authentic as we can to whatever that is.  If that isn't your goal in your transition, then you are doing it wrong.  I will not have people on a site that has been there to support me through my transition tell me I should be somebody I am not because it isn't like them or it happens, by luck or whatever, to be supported by a system they don't like, that I also acknowledge is harmful.  If you do that, you are no better than my loved ones that have turned their backs on me for trying to be myself.

If I am dense, and not understanding something, then fine.  I am sorry.  But I am just telling you how all of this is making me feel.  Which is... kind of sad, I guess? 

I think you are perfect as you are, Jen.

Quote from: Sarah7 on May 04, 2014, 10:35:47 PM
I think you are perfect as you are, Jen.

And I, you <3

Gender roles are not the reason for my needing to transition. The fact that my body is deformed for a man is.

Quote from: LordKAT on May 05, 2014, 04:31:34 AM
Gender roles are not the reason for my needing to transition. The fact that my body is deformed for a man is.

Same for me. It's always been a body dysmorphic feeling that I can remember having as far back as 8y/o.

Transition has greatly helped to alleviate that mental itch, and I no longer feel ashamed for wanting my body to be different than what I was genetically given.

If society were more open to non-binary, I might have gone for a more androgynous presentation because I never cared so much about having breasts at all. However, I have always pined over having larger hips and a feminine face.

Mentally, I feel that I don't really identify with any specific gender identification. I don't really seem to care. I am me. I love doing what I love to do and it is quite a mix of ebb and flow from "male" to "female" and everything in between.

Firstly, to the sheltered comment, all I can say is screw you. Sorry, I've been trying to be civil but my life has been the opposite of sheltered, I've lived more than people 5 times my age. And if you
actually *read* my comments, babe? You'll see how laughably idiotic yours is considering I spent like 90% bashing the binary.

Anyway, here's the problem I see in this thread and this community, and I can recognize my part in it. It's a one size fits all narrative that so many of you regurgitate without even thinking. Okay, yeah, for you it may very well be a body
issue, granted. And in another kind of society you may still WANT to transition. But you also might not. The body issue may have come about as a result of pressure from gender norms. We have no way of knowing.

And even if the body issue IS there, regardless, which it might be, you don't necessarily have to transition. Why do I say that? Because there are some in the same position as you all who are medically unable to. And they find
peace. Not that this binary thinking narrative that tells them they can't makes it easy on them.

And you can moo and moan about my points and say they're invalidating all you like. It doesn't take away that the very fact that we live in a society that makes transition waay harder than it should be is a large part of why we need to in the first place. Not that we shouldn't be able to, either way...I'm all for body modification. Just that it shouldn't feel like life or death.

Go ahead..read that, get your rage up, react instead of listening. I'll wait.

Quote from: Abbyxo on May 05, 2014, 07:45:28 AM
And even if the body issue IS there, regardless, which it might be, you don't necessarily have to transition. Why do I say that? Because there are some in the same position as you all who are medically unable to. And they find peace.

Have to argue this point. If those who can't transition for one reason or another are at peace then why is the suicide rate so high?

The answer is that for some transition IS a live or die situation.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on May 05, 2014, 07:58:41 AM
Have to argue this point. If those who can't transition for one reason or another are at peace then why is the suicide rate so high?

The answer is that for some transition IS a live or die situation.

Umm, because the pressure is still there? And then add in the pressure from the trans* community. They don't belong to a society or community that allows them to find peace with their bodies. But that's a bit touchy to bring up, don't you think? Considering the members who can't transition, let's respect their feelings too *hug*

Also, to the others, binary bashing isn't bashing the identities that adhere to it. On the contrary. It celebrates them. But as one of many. Not a standard to appeal to that causes isolation and pressure to conform for those who don't. It should be one of many threads in a diverse tapestry.

Can't yousee the arrogance? My identity superficially appeals to the binary, and thus the system is validated even if it harms others..

Your opposition says...my identity doesn't appeal to the binary and thus I am told I should conform, be an outcast, or cease to exist.

When in reality each identity, though different from one another, should be allowed to coexist without one being portrayed as standard. Like Jen, who you are is awesome and amazing and beautiful and shouldn't change one bit...but it's not better than who anyone else is. And I know you're not saying it is, at all, but saying that it's binary and that's somehow a good thing, does indirectly say that.

None of you are dense. None of you have had average lives, evidently, or you wouldn't be here. I won't assume you're...sheltered. So you can obviously grasp this if you try.

Abby,

No one is saying you don't have valid points.  It's just we aren't the enemy nor are you mine though some of the phrasing is very targeted.  I can only live my own life and strive to get what I want out of it.  I'm miserable and would like to finally find peace, that's all.  I wish the same for others here, including you, whether they are binary or not.  Everyone should find their own path that suits them and we shouldn't dictate the path they pursue.  I'm not here to dictate what they do and will always support people finding their own way. That was all I wished to say.  Maybe people like me fail on here, but many of us support non-binary's here and allow them to choose their own fate.  And I may fail at that on a personal level, but I wish it would be acknowledged that many of us try to do our part and help others find their own way.   That's all I can do as person.   I'm not the system nor are the other binaries here.

In any case Abby, I wish you well and hope the rest of your transition goes well.  I don't want to be your enemy and fight with you.  I'll apologize for any personal failures and continue to try and do my best while on here.  It's all I can do. 

Quote from: Abbyxo on May 05, 2014, 08:10:44 AM
Your opposition says...my identity doesn't appeal to the binary and thus I am told I should conform, be an outcast, or cease to exist.

I don't oppose anyone or what they want to be at all. I am simply explaining how some have a biological or other urge which makes transition necessary. Society certainly had no impact on my transition, I did it for me to ease my medical symptoms.

I won't assume you're...sheltered. So you can obviously grasp this if you try.

This was very insulting to me personally. I am not sheltered or stupid and have worked the streets for 28 years learning more than the average person does. I have seen much more of life's tragedies and loss than probably you have.

I just, I think it's funny how transpeople shoot themselves in the foot you know? And eat their own. You throw non-binary people under the bus in favor of transsexuals for the same reason the LGBT community throws transsexuals under the bus in favor of gays, for the same reason cishets throw gays under the bus. It's these layers...fold after fold that trickle down, and it's all for appealing to an f-ed up sense of normalcy.

It is normalcy, too! What's our slogan? We're just normal people. Who are our darlings? Beautiful young women. We complain about bigotry but validate that bigotry by trying desperately to appeal to an ideal that is responsible for it...and we never will, not as long as that standard exists.

And you know, instead we could say screw that ideal, let's make change this time. Let's solve the problem at a fundamental level. Pull it out from the roots instead of scratching the surface through our transition and PR campaigns.

But you won't do that. Because it takes one person to do it and another person to follow. And nobody is going to be that first person, or the one to go off with the loner, on principle. And neither will I, probably. I'm a pretty, uber passable girl, I'll probably end up going stealth one day. The ultimate hypocrisy. Demand change in words but live a life of actions that are anti-thetical to these principles. When, really, it's actions that matter.

So I guess that's it, then. Not much left to say. I'm hurting myself by trying to help myself the same as all you. Except I'm able to feel the pain, and that's what sucks.

Quote from: Abbyxo on May 05, 2014, 08:10:44 AM
But as one of many. Not a standard to appeal to that causes isolation and pressure to conform for those who don't. It should be one of many threads in a diverse tapestry.

This I fully agree with.  There shouldn't be a standard at all.  Many different paths for many different people.

Quote from: Abbyxo on May 05, 2014, 08:26:15 AM
I just, I think it's funny how transpeople shoot themselves in the foot you know? And eat their own. You throw non-binary people under the bus in favor of transsexuals for the same reason the LGBT community throws transsexuals under the bus in favor of gays, for the same reason cishets throw gays under the bus. It's these layers...fold after fold that trickle down, and it's all for appealing to an f-ed up sense of normalcy.

It is normalcy, too! What's our slogan? We're just normal people. Who are our darlings? Beautiful young women. We complain about bigotry but validate that bigotry by trying desperately to appeal to an ideal that is responsible for it...and we never will, not as long as that standard exists.

And you know, instead we could say screw that ideal, let's make change this time. Let's solve the problem at a fundamental level. Pull it out from the roots instead of scratching the surface through our transition and PR campaigns.

But you won't do that. Because it takes one person to do it and another person to follow. And nobody is going to be that first person, or the one to go off with the loner, on principle. And neither will I, probably. I'm a pretty, uber passable girl, I'll probably end up going stealth one day. The ultimate hypocrisy. Demand change in words but live a life of actions that are anti-thetical to these principles. When, really, it's actions that matter.

So I guess that's it, then. Not much left to say. I'm hurting myself by trying to help myself the same as all you. Except I'm able to feel the pain, and that's what sucks.

Are you OK today sweetie? I am a little worried about you to be honest. PM if you need to talk. I will be here for you.

No one is throwing anyone under a bus here. People come here for support and learn how to transition. That is their choice and what you are saying is that is the wrong choice for them. No one makes them transition at all. It is free will and following what their bodies are saying is right for them. No one here has ever said if you are a member here you HAVE to transition or we will remove you. I see support for everyone from still questioning members to the whole spectrum of identities.

you have some really valid points and some interesting things to say. However, I'm a bit confused.

For on thing, you talk about transition. I think clearly defining what you mean by transition would be good. From what I've seen transition itself is a spectrum. Some people transition without surgery. Some people have some surgery but not all. Some take hormones. Some live in stealth and some don't. So when you ask if transition is necessary, what are you really asking? Are you asking if it's necessary to be binary? To have surgery? I'm not judging what you are asking, I'm honestly confused.

I think the other thing that makes this hard is that the question is that it's an either/or. Is transition necessary. I think if the conversation was more about what is transition and how does society affect your decision to society, it would be a less heated and it would maybe get to more of what you are thinking. It doesn't have to be an either/or. I think you will find people here who are going through some form of transition but are also not embracing "normalcy".

It's sad that everyone is one the defensive now. I think there's a lot of common ground within this community and in this conversation. It's hard because this is such a personal, painful journey for most of us so that fear and pain can carry over our conversations. I would love to hear about the people here who are not embracing normalcy. Who are taking their own path in some way and not being binary. Ironically, it was the knowledge that it didn't have to be binary that finally gave me the ability to begin my own transition.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on May 05, 2014, 08:37:16 AM
Are you OK today sweetie? I am a little worried about you to be honest. PM if you need to talk. I will be here for you.

No one is throwing anyone under a bus here. People come here for support and learn how to transition. That is their choice and what you are saying is that is the wrong choice for them. No one makes them transition at all. It is free will and following what their bodies are saying is right for them. No one here has ever said if you are a member here you HAVE to transition or we will remove you. I see support for everyone from still questioning members to the whole spectrum of identities.

I am okay, Jessica, but thank you for asking, you're a sweetheart. I'm just in a weird space at the moment. And feeling maybe a liittle bipolar, haha (out god help me, if).

It's just...to be completely honest, I reaaally, really don't want to transition, haha. It just doesn't suit with...me. My inner sense of self. Not in terms of being female, because I would rather be female. I'm talking in terms of the actual process itself..changing my body this way. I never devalued my body, before, despite wanting to be female. So this...this bringing everything so out of sync with itself and its intended purpose. It's not me. It's not how I want to be.

For you guys I'm sure it's brilliant. I can picture, it must be like a godsend if you hate your body. But for me, it's not..organic, enough, I guess. It's...very..something. but I'm not brave enough not to. And it would take more bravery. I can't..be male with society being the way it is. With all the concepts on what a man is to remind me of what I would prefer to be but am not...and to remind me of a standard I can't appeal to.

And it's like. These days, everyday is different. My breasts are...uhhh...round and full and noticeable. My hairs getting longer. I'm on this path toward being..more beautiful. And I'm at a point where every day practically brings a change and I'm losing myself in it.

And then there's society again. Being what appears to be a pretty girl in this society. I feel like a liar. So inauthentic and fake. I feel obbligated to every come on, every smile,every wink, every stare. I'm fooling them into believing I'm something I'm not. But in another society none of that would matter, right? I might not have to transition in the first place, and even if I did I wouldn't have to feel fake.

So basically...I'm doing something I don't want to do, because I can't deal with feelings i shouldn't have to deal with anyway, so I can live a life where I feel a way I shouldn't have to about myself...and in the end? The solution is validating the cause of the problem. Because everything I'm doing is to appeal to the system that causes this painful cycle. And I'm not a person who can look past these things. The irony stares me in the face everyday.

It's a luttle problem see? Just one with no manageable solution I can see.

Quote from: Abbyxo on May 05, 2014, 09:07:55 AM
I am okay, Jessica, but thank you for asking, you're a sweetheart. I'm just in a weird space at the moment. And feeling maybe a liittle bipolar, haha (out god help me, if).

It's just...to be completely honest, I reaaally, really don't want to transition, haha. It just doesn't suit with...me. My inner sense of self. Not in terms of being female, because I would rather be female. I'm talking in terms of the actual process itself..changing my body this way. I never devalued my body, before, despite wanting to be female. So this...this bringing everything so out of sync with itself and its intended purpose. It's not me. It's not how I want to be.

For you guys I'm sure it's brilliant. I can picture, it must be like a godsend if you hate your body. But for me, it's not..organic, enough, I guess. It's...very..something. but I'm not brave enough not to. And it would take more bravery. I can't..be male with society being the way it is. With all the concepts on what a man is to remind me of what I would prefer to be but am not...and to remind me of a standard I can't appeal to.

And it's like. These days, everyday is different. My breasts are...uhhh...round and full and noticeable. My hairs getting longer. I'm on this path toward being..more beautiful. And I'm at a point where every day practically brings a change and I'm losing myself in it.

And then there's society again. Being what appears to be a pretty girl in this society. I feel like a liar. So inauthentic and fake. I feel obbligated to every come on, every smile,every wink, every stare. I'm fooling them into believing I'm something I'm not. But in another society none of that would matter, right? I might not have to transition in the first place, and even if I did I wouldn't have to feel fake.

So basically...I'm doing something I don't want to do, because I can't deal with feelings i shouldn't have to deal with anyway, so I can live a life where I feel a way I shouldn't have to about myself...and in the end? The solution is validating the cause of the problem. Because everything I'm doing is to appeal to the system that causes this painful cycle. And I'm not a person who can look past these things. The irony stares me in the face everyday.

It's a luttle problem see? Just one with no manageable solution I can see.

Yeah, ouch. All I can offer is a biiig hug. Hah, we are just too similar though.

The way you described it reminds me of another of these issues I am inescapably bound in... weight. Gotta be thin. so much pressure to be thin. So much that I hate my body, and I really want to be thin, I wanna be thinner than anyone else, cuz thin =beautiful.... most guys don't even agree with that statement. But society had been slamming this down my throat since the day i was born and in the end it doesn't matter. I have to be thin. I have to wear smaller sizes. I hate this disgusting fat body of mine. I hear and believe that it is wrong to be who I want to be in any other size. It is lesser. It is loathsome. So I'm caught in a cycle of EDs and then self harm when I screw it up, I fundamentally detest myself so much that I hurt me to punish me, over not being able to be thin, this thing that shouldn't matter anyway, and wouldn't in another culture, not one bit. There is no way i would want so dearly to be thin if I lived in one of those cultures. it's a feeling about my body but it comes from standards I inherited and so it is  right out the door. It makes me hate myself to control me and it does. Even finding a peace with the trans thing, I can't let go of the being thin thing. I don't think I will ever be okay with not striving to beat my body into thinness, even if society moves on, it has become a ruler for my self worth.

I know you suffer from the same thing abby, with this issue too. It's cuz this is what they did to us. They told us what to be if we want to be the type of ourselves that matters. I want to be thin. I want to be a pretty, shallow, thin, dumb ass little lady who loves a good ride, cuz that's what society put in me. And told me i had to do that to be happily me. Cuz those are what it told me are the best versions of the labels I belong to. All I can do to fight it is not reinforce it in other people. But look what other people do to me. Even in the trans community, the place that is supposed to know all this. I mean in a weight loss community they know it's a load of BS, they know it shouldn't matter but they all desperately want to be thin anyway. The trans community doesn't even get it for the most part. I post my pretty lil face and what do I hear from trans people? You can't be a boy like that. You can't be what you were born as. liar, you don't want to detransition. Something must be crazy with you for wanting to... do what you want but I totally don't understand, I don't support your deviance. Why don't you try harder to look like a boy, stop doing things a girl does, and I'll be able to see it.

It's not that people are doing that to be nefarious. I know they are well meaning. But what kills me is they can't even tell how much they are infecting people with because they're so helplessly infected themselves. They tell themselves that if they just live as an inferior version of other people who can be all the things they want to be, they will be happy. Maybe they will, but it's not how it should be and not how it has to. Being trans is a self-hating thing. You can't get away from that. and the only way to fix it is to stop believing in it. Well, I stopped believing in it, and it's still gonna be a fight, but i have to believe that at the end of the day, the world is minutely better for my choice.

Yes...yes, yes. What we fail to realize in all our mooing about bigotry is that we're the product of that society. We were born into a society that views things this way and like it or not we've internalized so much of that to a fundamental level that even in our attempts to fight against it we try to appeal to it.

Infected is exactly the way to describe it. It's systemic and it's disgusting. And yes, weight issues as well, all of it. I know exactly how you feel. My BMI was 27 once...I look back on that with sheer and utter disgust. I remember it made me feel so inhuman. Until my BMI was 16.3 and I was nearly hospitalized for anorexia.

And you know, it never ends. I have this ideal of beauty I try desperately to appeal to. When I feel like I don't, I feel worthless. Like I have no reason to be sucking in air. When I feel like I do, it's all my worth. That image on the glass is the sum of my being. I empty out my personality for the sake of it. I downplay my intelligence because it doesn't portay a vapid ideal of the ditzy, doe eyed pretty little girl (and in the end...I'm still not enough. because I have a penis). Beauty isn't bad, not at all, it's wonderful, but it should be something personal we portray because it makes us happy...instead its an obbligation to affirm self worth.

And you know what, I don't even want this. I don't want to have to change my body this way. I'd prefer to be female but I'm not, not in the way I want to be. Can I accept that? No. Because we live in a society that says a male has to be a man. And I can't. I don't know how to be a man. Why can't I like my body, and like my face, and be male and still be soft, and feminine, and delicate? Cause society says so. So I throw it a way to make these massive, unfufilling alterations to portray an image that allows me to be myself...and I lose myself in it.

But yeah, nobody can tell you who you are SP. You don't have to cut your hair...it's lovely, so please don't! You don't have to dress a certain way or act a certain way to be a boy. So don't listen to anybody says otherwise, okay?

I'm glad I made this thread. I think we got to the core of some things, here, which is no easy task. Y'all definitely gave me some food for thought and working through this stuff was healthy.

I think...at the end...we all have the same common goal. And that's freedom. Freedom to change your body if you want. Or not! Freedom from pressure to be something you aren't. To conform to molds. Freedom to live the life that makes you happy.

And I think...some of us, or all of us, actually, get lost on the way. We don't realize exactly what it is we want or where it comes from. We're happy with the scraps we have because it's all we know. This insistence of ->-bleeped-<- as something life or death...it's looking for justification for something you have no need to justify. Changing your body is your right. And if it feels like life or death, that probably is a product of the way our society portrays gender...you may have body dysphoria, but that's probably the product of how you internalizd gender roles.

And even if it's not why should it cause so much pain? Why should it cause anymore pain than disliking the color of your eyes or complexion of your skin? Body issues come in all shapes and sizes, beyond the gender specific ones. It's because these body issues come with strings attached. The need to conform to masvuline or feminine ideals. This is where dysphoria comes in. This where body hatred comes in...nobody should have to hate their body, regardless.

I would like to live in an age where transition is just a cosmetic procedure. Something like plastic surgery. Something people do because it makes them feel better about themselves. A little change.

All the insistence on how horrible it is to have a wrong sexed body just proves how overblown the distinctions between us are. Maybe your body is the wrong sex, but it shouldn't be suuch a big deal. It's this dichotomy society has installed that makes you feel you are fundamentally wrong. That makes you hate your body so much. Again, not saying you wouldn't still want to change it...but it wouldn't be so major.

But yeah, our goal is the same. We all want freedom for all of this. I'm as sad to live in a society that made me feel like I had to change my body as you all are to live in one that says you shouldn't. So who's the enemy here? You have to surrender your narrative because it's the product of harmful thinking.

We'll call me old fashioned but I transitioned for the simplest of reasons, that I should have been born a girl. All throughout my younger years I knew I should have been a girl. I started going out as a teen. I lived through the abuse and BS. Later on when I got to a point where I could no longer function in society, I transitioned. I wanted to be as close to female as possible so I had the usual rounds of surgery we all hear in this site. Now I live a girls life in girl world in a girl body and I'm happy. My transition made me a happier and better balanced person more inclined to actively participate in society, meaning adopting a female role but without having to live with the trans label.

I see it as a very simple and very black and white when it comes to me personally. I should have been born a girl so I did what I needed to do. Simple to me.