Quote from: Dread_Faery on September 19, 2014, 01:57:53 PM
---k chivalry and ---k the patriarchy.

Agreed.  Chivalry when exclusively expressed by a man towards a woman is basically just sexist.  Chivalry when expressed by anyone towards anyone regardless of gender is basically just being kind and a decent human being.

I wouldn't wan't someone to hold the door for me purely on the basis of my gender, I'd wan't them to do it because they're being nice to another *EQUAL* human being.  I've always held the door for others, irrespective of their gender, because its just a nice thing to do for someone and that's it.  If you do it because "they're a woman" then that just reinforces the gender stereotype that "women are weak / feeble / can't even open a door on their own", which is something that's just provably wrong (I mean, women are responsible for pushing every human being on the planet out of their vaginas, they bleed heavily once a month and have been proven to have a higher pain threshold than men... how is any of that "weak"?? ).

So yeh, they may well have good intentions and all, but that doesn't make it "right".

Quote from: Elsa Delyth on December 28, 2014, 04:03:17 PM
You do also realize that when guys hold open doors for one and other they often say "ladies first" as a derogatory remark towards each other.

I never find it demeaning, infact if I'm in an elevator, when reaching a floor, guys do often put out their hand in a respectful gesture  ''ladies first'' I'II smile and sometimes say ''thank you''  it's nice.

Quote from: ♥︎ SarahD ♥︎ on December 28, 2014, 04:53:25 PM
Agreed.  Chivalry when exclusively expressed by a man towards a woman is basically just sexist.  Chivalry when expressed by anyone towards anyone regardless of gender is basically just being kind and a decent human being.

I wouldn't wan't someone to hold the door for me purely on the basis of my gender, I'd wan't them to do it because they're being nice to another *EQUAL* human being.  I've always held the door for others, irrespective of their gender, because its just a nice thing to do for someone and that's it.  If you do it because "they're a woman" then that just reinforces the gender stereotype that "women are weak / feeble / can't even open a door on their own", which is something that's just provably wrong (I mean, women are responsible for pushing every human being on the planet out of their vaginas, they bleed heavily once a month and have been proven to have a higher pain threshold than men... how is any of that "weak"?? ).

So yeh, they may well have good intentions and all, but that doesn't make it "right".

It's funny that you talk about the pain threshold. I once read about a study that had people hold their hands in hot water, and see who could do it longer, and men generally did it longer than women, so one of the female researchers remarked "this just proves that men are stupider." Lol.

Quote from: pretty pauline on December 28, 2014, 04:56:32 PM
I never find it demeaning, infact if I'm in an elevator, when reaching a floor, guys do often put out their hand in a respectful gesture  ''ladies first'' I'II smile and sometimes say ''thank you''  it's nice.

I'm saying that men find it demeaning, when it's done for them -- and overtly demean each other, using women as a vehicle, when doing it for each other.

Using women and femininity to demean other men is fairly ubiquitous.

Don't get me wrong though, not like I'd make a big deal about it if it happened, I'd be congenial, but I still wouldn't like it!

I appreciate the gesture, and consider it an act of kindness. 

Quote from: Elsa Delyth on December 28, 2014, 05:43:06 PM
I'm saying that men find it demeaning, when it's done for them -- and overtly demean each other, using women as a vehicle, when doing it for each other.

Using women and femininity to demean other men is fairly ubiquitous.

Don't get me wrong though, not like I'd make a big deal about it if it happened, I'd be congenial, but I still wouldn't like it!

I understand, I miss understood your post.
On another point, I remember a gas station near where I lived, had a guy filling gas into cars for women customers, I loved that personal service, particularly as I hated smelling of gas, the guy was only too eager to do it, these days hubby does all that stuff.

I guess that I look on the bright side of it all.

Yes, chivalry has its roots in patriarchal nonsense.

But I'm much more interested in intention.

When a guy is chivalrous, he often does it because that's part of what he's been taught about being a good person - and he is trying to be one!

I think its very sweet.


Sarah x

I don't mind it - a remnant of a time long gone when gender roles were more clearly defined, and it's just nice to be recognized and treated as female once in a while.  A door held open for me is as pleasant as being "ma'am"ed, a harmless gesture that rights some small part of my prior life.

Doesn't happen often though.  The last person to treat me overtly as female was my endocrinologist, the sweetest and most understanding person I know when it comes to that kind of thing.  Held my shirt for me as I put it on, a real gentleman.  Of course, that was moments after he had felt my tits, fondled my balls, and stuck his finger up my ass , so I guess pretending I was a girl was the least he could do...

Chivalry can be nice, but I also find it amusing.  For example, I thought it was hilarious when I was still pretending to be a guy and I'd be leaving a store and some guy would come zooming around from behind me to open the door.  Then he'd turn around, look at me, and . . . surprise!  Yes, I was wearing a tie! 

And I swear that one of these days when I am on an elevator and a group of men wait for me to get out first, I am just going to stand there and wait to see how long it takes for them to either go around me or say something,

If I present myself as female I get doors open, elevator doors held, "after you, miss" etc.

If I present as a male I get almost none of that. Occasionally someone will hold the door behind them as I'm entering. Sometimes I do get people opening doors, but it's more of an "after you bro" kinda thing.

I kind of like chivalry. I don't consider it to be sexist at all. I work among high powered and well paid women here, who I have opened doors for and treated like ladies many times. When I go FT at work I hope I'm treated the same.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on December 29, 2014, 09:22:45 AM
Chivalry can be nice, but I also find it amusing.  For example, I thought it was hilarious when I was still pretending to be a guy and I'd be leaving a store and some guy would come zooming around from behind me to open the door.  Then he'd turn around, look at me, and . . . surprise!  Yes, I was wearing a tie! 

And I swear that one of these days when I am on an elevator and a group of men wait for me to get out first, I am just going to stand there and wait to see how long it takes for them to either go around me or say something,

Oh, LOL. One of my coworkers and I went to a meeting with a new account manager for a vendor of ours. She had to take a cab back to her office, and you should see how he basically ran around like the road runner trying to catch one for her. It was pretty amusing.