Quote from: Devlyn Marie on March 15, 2018, 11:09:29 AM
While I'm on my soapbox..

..we love our Drag friends, they are welcome at Susan's Place. Please  don't say things that will make them feel less than welcome.

From what I understand a lot of drag performers identify as cis males (e.g., Frank Marino, Rupaul etc.); and their makeup is heavily applied, which looks good on stage under the lights, but not very good up close in the light of day.

Quote from: kitchentablepotpourri on March 15, 2018, 12:36:46 PM
From what I understand a lot of drag performers identify as cis males (e.g., Frank Marino, Rupaul etc.); and their makeup is heavily applied, which looks good on stage under the lights, but not very good up close in the light of day.

Yes, I know a few of the local Queens and also the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence. The makeup is heavy. The hearts are gold. 

Hugs, Devlyn

I'm not saying anything mean; and name dropping in this town is unimpressive 😀

Quote from: MissMonique on March 15, 2018, 02:24:20 AMOnly been on HRT for a month or so, but just wondering what I need to do to tip the balance in my favour and am terrified of ending up like that woman.

Others have spoken eloquently about why we don't need to be afraid of not passing.  However, we don't always get a choice on this matter, just as we don't get to choose whether we're dysphoric or not.  For a whole lot of transitioners, being misgendered will trigger gender dysphoria... and sometimes that can only be ameliorated by proper gendering.

If you need other people to gender you female without fail, you must address your embodiment and your socialization. 

HRT will only do so much for your embodiment.  It won't change the shape of your bones, the shape of your genitalia, the sound of your voice, or your facial hair.  Electrolysis and surgery can change most of this, but it's very expensive.  Voice training will be required, even if you need surgery to cut out the lower frequencies.  Facial hair removal and voice retraining are most important here, followed by facial surgery.  If you have broad shoulders, it will likely take having big boobs to "balance" them out. 

Socialization includes not just things like knowing how to present fashion and makeup in a way that's appropriate for your age and location, but also includes learning different ways to interact and converse.  Gender is constantly policed, regardless of how you identify, and just about everyone of your true gender understands what the "rules" are for same-sex and mixed-sex company, and what the consequences will be for breaking them.  (Everyone breaks the rules, btw, but usually only to a limited extent.) 

Finally, for many if not most cis people, you won't "pass" with an open narrative of transition. 

None of this means that you won't elicit female gendering if you don't pass. Obviously, all kinds of trans folk get gendered correctly just on the basis of narrative alone.  It's just not consistent or predictable, and can often feel condescending or indulgent.  But even being gendered as "trans" will likely be far preferable to being gendered as cis male.  Just by coming out, or presenting as visibly gender variant, people will treat you differently than before, and that in itself can be a big relief.

Quote from: Sophia Sage on March 15, 2018, 12:55:55 PM
Obviously, all kinds of trans folk get gendered correctly just on the basis of narrative alone.  It's just not consistent or predictable, and can often feel condescending or indulgent.

Thinking about that kinda made me feel sad. As if people would be "playing along" with me, not really accepting me as female.

Yes, my description on here and use of language was perhaps a little unflattering.  However, I am saying it here, about someone you'll never identify from my description.  I am saying it to ask for your advice about myself rather than to pass a comment about a nameless, anonymous third party.  The point of my comment was that this person looked like the sum of my worst nightmares about myself.  I caught a moment of eye contact and felt such internal pain in her.  It looked like she knew she had ended up in a bad place and had no way back to anywhere else. 

So, yes, unsuccessful based on their own relative experience.  Perhaps I was reading a lot into that shared moment, but the point was the fear it stoked in me.

I gave her a smile and a nod, as if to say, I see you sister. 

Don't for one second read into that some idea that I am unaccepting and judgmental.  That is judgmental of you to do that to me.  I can feel someone's pain.  I can share in it.  And in reality, a lot of the time people feel that they have to "play along with us as we dress up as women".  I had this from a nurse that came to my home to do bloodwork, I had it in the hairdresser's, I get it everywhere and it is rare to be accepted in a way that reflects how I feel and If I see that in someone else, but amplified to an extreme, then I am not judging them, I am sympathising and fearful for my own future.

To pretend that they are successfully transitioned, that their interior and exterior match to a level they are happy with and that the world takes them seriously and I should just be nice about it all and only say lovely things does no one any favours about improving how we deal with issues, support one another, lobby for change, get access to better resources and find ways to support people who find themselves in a place like that.

Or we could just pretend... lah de dah...  everything is flowers and rainbows.

Stop digging. Backpedaling only looks good when it's done on a unicycle. 

Oh wow same thing happened to me like a month ago. I thought her confidence when she walked in was pretty cool. But I'm more or less andro and it looked like she stopped smiling when she saw me. Not sure why.. I mean, I'm very friendly [emoji56]

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Why is it that she cannot share her fears without being attacked? Perhaps her wording could be better but her fears are real. This is the MALE TO FEMALE TRANSSEXUAL portion of the forums right? These ARE the fears to be delt with here, in this forum, with people who have quite possibly felt the same way.

It should be possible to express our displeasure about wording without attacking all Gestapo like. Policing here, to that extent, is more like bullying. I don't think that is what this site is about.

Monique,
It can be heart wrenching and painful. To the world most of us have been that girl, it does hurt, but does get better with time and effort.

Even if you can't see it right now.

Saw an unsuccessful trans woman and it scared you a lot!  Seriously?  Unsuccessful according to what/whose standards?  What's scary is to see a post like this in a venue such as ours. What if the subject of the post were a very fat woman wearing an itsy bitsy teenie weenie yellow polka dot bikini on the beach in Santa Monica.......how would you feel about characterizing her as scary?  Judging the book solely by the cover?

There seems to be a large measure of projection present in this post. I didn't see anything beyond a "shared moment" and "knowing glance" in the "encounter" .........and that was sufficient to figure out she ended up in a bad place with no way back? 

Maybe the person was an eccentric multi millionaire who enjoyed freaking out the tourists on occasion.  Or, What if a conversation with the scary man in drag revealed that they were dying in a few months and were determined to finish out their life authentically despite the optics. Does the additional context modify your feeling about the characterization in the op?.

I have a more fundamental question: why does another's appearance impact you in the least let alone generate visions of your worst nightmare?  Perhaps it would be better to work on self acceptance from the inside out and leave assumptions about strangers out of the equation.

This is not about denying the difficulties that are associated with being transgender and learning how to cope successfully.  The tone of the post comes across as judgmental in a passive aggressive sort of way and I agree with Devlyn..... Quit digging.

It's ok to be scared.  It's normal.  I'm sure most of us felt that way at some point or another.  The important thing is what you decide to do with this fear.  Rather than allowing yourself to be paralyzed by this fear, take it as a call to action and start taking steps needed to reach your goals.

Start with voice training.  A female voice is one of the most important elements to being gendered female, and you can achieve it simply with training (and even those who get voice surgery still need to do vocal training anyway).  Start today; unfortunately HRT won't change your voice.  It's all up to you and the amount of work you decide to put in.

One month in HRT is really nothing.
I won't jump down your throat on the rest of your comments. It looks like everyone covered that.
I'll say it's what you make of it though.
I've found that the hardest thing to do is let go of the camouflage that you built up to blend.
My voice is getting better and I'm finally shedding some of that stuff and getting mam much more consistently. But looks are only a small part. I pass in photos I think but old habits die hard.

Kitty


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Quote from: FinallyMichelle on March 15, 2018, 09:29:20 PM
Why is it that she cannot share her fears without being attacked? Perhaps her wording could be better but her fears are real. This is the MALE TO FEMALE TRANSSEXUAL portion of the forums right? These ARE the fears to be delt with here, in this forum, with people who have quite possibly felt the same way.

It should be possible to express our displeasure about wording without attacking all Gestapo like. Policing here, to that extent, is more like bullying. I don't think that is what this site is about.

Monique,
It can be heart wrenching and painful. To the world most of us have been that girl, it does hurt, but does get better with time and effort.

Even if you can't see it right now.

I agree - I thought we were allowed to express genuine opinions here?  - I think some of you are being overly zealous in a forum where people are invited to share their opinion.

Sonja

Please let us share our opinions without attacking each other.

Cindy

Live and let live.  Isn't that what everyone on this site wants?  Acceptance.  Live our life as we see fit.  Wear / express what we want in our routine daily life without getting marginalized for it.  It is not about passing.  It is about comfort both socially as well as personally.
We all make judgements.  Some are valid.  Most are not. We don't know others path that has been taken.  We don't know their needs. 
I think of the picture I saw once.  A person in a ballerina outfit with a tutu, a hairy chest and beard rollerblading down the road enjoying the moment.  This person was owning their true self and bothering no one but the small mined. Seems to me they were passing fine as themselves.  I for one wont be small minded.   

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on March 15, 2018, 07:30:16 PM
Stop digging. Backpedaling only looks good when it's done on a unicycle. 

Pot to kettle? I'm sorry Dev, I also read your first and subsequent points in this thread as judgemental to a degree I'd call unwarranted. So echoing the most recent comments by finallymichelle & Sonja.

Is there some stuff in the OP's post that needs some unpacking? Sure, that doesn't mean her thoughts aren't welcome to me. I've had more or less the OP's experience and response dozens of times. The most personally telling would have been when I was only a few weeks out myself, and very much on tenterhooks in my own life in the midst of arranging the early steps toward GCS. I gave directions to a trans woman clearly out of sorts wearing an outfit that wasn't the least flattering or age appropriate.

I think the key thing in that interaction was the absolute clarity that she wasn't comfortable with her own presentation. What I need was give all of my available signs of approval; made eye contact, smiled, helped her with what she asked (how to find a particular lecture hall).

Compare that to the comfortably nonbinary expressions I see daily. Back when I was strategizing my own transition I would see someone sporting a beard with otherwise femme attire and presentation and not a single sign of discomfort.

And I filed all those experiences away in formulating my own plan for how to present. In fact GCS threw a huge monkey wrench into that plan. Pre-op I'd had no plan to regularly wear dresses post-op. That went out the window as soon as I began to have enough spare cycles to get to a thrift shop and acqire a couple not skirts. Today that's my daily attire and the only reason I still wear work jeans to blow glass is I haven't worn out the ones I own and can only recently afford work skirts in suitable fabric.

So here I am a mostly binary female without any firm plans for passing. I'm correctly gendered by all the people who know me and invariably misgendered by everyone else. That was the plan, the only thing in the plan that changed was skirts. Bless me, I love 'em.

I've also expressed this same fear here. I don't know if I'll transition. I don't know if I won't. If I do, I want to be taken for a woman. I don't want to be an obvious T-person. I don't mind being read once in awhile, but life would be so much easier if most just didn't know. Sorry if that doesn't sit well with some. But, if I have to transition, I'll have little choice and will just have to do the best I can.

Quote from: amandam on March 16, 2018, 12:27:30 AM
I've also expressed this same fear here. I don't know if I'll transition. I don't know if I won't. If I do, I want to be taken for a woman. I don't want to be an obvious T-person. I don't mind being read once in awhile, but life would be so much easier if most just didn't know. Sorry if that doesn't sit well with some. But, if I have to transition, I'll have little choice and will just have to do the best I can.

Anyone ever tell you your avatar looks like Marlo Thomas?

I was shocked by the hypocritical, vehement ad hominem attacks on me here by sanctimonious people.

A few of you have been lovely.

Some of you displaying much more malevolence than anything unintentional in my posts.

I also see that one such person was an admin on here.

I wanted to support the transagenda in the US.  I am not American, very happily not American.  However, the attack on your civil liberties from within means those of us in more enlightened countries that enjoy liberties feel a need to donate in some ways to help your culture.

I can't see myself continuing with my monthly donations to this site if this is the kind of toxic dialogue that is promoted here.

Don't bother replying to me or this thread.

I won't be back.

I wish all of you well, but see a wide gulf from what I consider to be healthy discourse and what passes for it here.

We all start somewhere


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