Quote from: Allison S on October 11, 2018, 09:01:47 PM
Lol

Yet I'm naturally timid and shy... It does make things a bit more complicated when around new people. I love the idea of "stealth" because it's like regaining power in a way. I'd probably have to come out to anyone I get very close to, but otherwise going about life and being gendered female is so much better for me. 

Being confident isn't necessarily the same as being an extrovert.  I'm fairly reserved and quiet myself but the visceral knowledge that I am a woman seems to shine through when I have social interactions.  It's hard to shake those years of programming to the contrary though.

You think you are timid and shy. I'm pretty sure I invented timid and shy. Back when I invented dirt, I would do my best to stay off the radar. Having the confidence to pull off being a woman full time is still a work in process and one of the reasons after 27 months on hormones I still visit the therapist twice a month. To unwind a lifetime of self loathing and feeling I was not worthy to be alive let alone live as the person I felt I was. If I had to worry about passing I would not get out of bed in the morning. It's not in the cards. I wish I could be a femme fatale and just be like Gigi. Heck I wish I could be twenty years old again and growing up under the same circumstances as twenty year olds today. It would have been a no brainer for me to transition and at that age I may have come out pretty good. I don't know if I would have had the support of my family to do so.
In my time there were a few successful transitioners but far between. There were ->-bleeped-<-s who occasionally got a ride with Eddie Murphy or Hugh Grant on Santa Monica Blvd. Uncle Milty, Flip Wilson, Jack Lemmon and even a young Tom Hanks would dress in drag for laughs. Even today in crime dramas we get transgender people looked upon as a joke, a criminal, an amusement or a victim. How do we expect to pass when a fair depiction cannot be found? Name me one transgender depiction of someone going about their daily lives. I can't think of one besides John Lithgow in the World According to Garp." I know there are transgender film festival depictions of such. But, few see the light of day of mass distribution.
I don't want to be a joke. and I can't do that simply dressing up and passing... I have to open up my mouth and explain things, to inform people that while we are different we are the same. Sure I may be able to make a small circle of friends and we can enjoy nightlife all dressed up. But what about when we live day to day lives? Go to the store with hair in a pony tail and no make up like most women. Hold a conversation without allowing our voices to get too low lest they find out our little secret. Someone wanted me to explain my Jim Abbot analogy and I guess this is what I mean. You may find time when you pass, Jim Abbot did it at the highest levels for ten years. But he has always only had one hand. In his biography that is the point they make. A one handed pitcher.  So all the passing in the world and you will be known for only one thing. Not passing at one time in your life.
A lot of us are passable as long as it's from a long distance. As we get closer we can see the hooded eyes, or the receding hairline, maybe it's beard shadow.  Maybe a little paunch or maybe like me you might notice that the waistline does not match the dress because it's two inches to short.

I saw a picture the other day on another site. This 27 year old transwomen was absolutely beautiful. I'd show her picture if I had permission. She is every transwomans dream. Beautiful flawless skin, no wrinkles and her clothes are so stylish, make-up perfect. I looked at her transition pictures and it reminded me of Archlord who did such a marvelous job of recording her transition. Well back to the story. Everyone was telling her how fantastic she looked. She wrote back that she was wearing a wig and she always had a large forehead. Even this beauty who has everything going for her does not have enough confidence to pass. To herself. That is the point I am trying to make. I want to make sure you understand this in my opinion and in no way does it represent anyone else's view but mine unless you want to. If so send me $90 for your therapy session.

Quote from: Colleen_definitely on October 11, 2018, 07:49:02 PM
Dawn, I definitely can see where people would disagree with your post.  Confidence and self-acceptance isn't absolutely everything when it comes to passing in my opinion.  On its own at least.

However, it's one hell of a step in the right direction and most certainly helps everything else fall into place.  Stepping into a room mentally saying "behold I am woman/man/Devlyn/enby/whatever!" without saying a word is a huge help to passing.  Being timid or looking like you're hiding something merely arouses suspicion.  Being confident helps others accept you at face value so to speak.

Beautiful! 

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: DawnOday on October 11, 2018, 05:05:28 PM
Sorry Ainsley but I disagree that it's others responsibility to address you correctly.

Well, that is not what I said.    I am not interested is dissecting things we've said here.  I gave my opinion; love it or hate it, it's there for the taking or the skipping.

Quote from: DawnOday on October 11, 2018, 05:05:28 PM
...Jim Abbott was born September 19, 1967, in Flint, Michigan without a right hand. ...

Yes, I sat next to him in biology class.    No need to explain his overcoming what life dealt him.  I saw him do it everyday.  He was just another kid in Mr. McDaniel's class as far as I was concerned.

I think this topic kind of veered off from my original question... or I didn't really explain it well enough. I only meant if we pass in public, how do we know it's really "passing" or others being nice?

I think Denise made a topic similar to this where she asked people at her gym... I'm starting to think that's really the only way to know for sure- to ask.
But I'm really hesitant to do that. I honestly don't think I "pass" because I'm very good at eye contact, facial expressions and body language. As I said, women are harder to read than men. Even then, are men nice because they're attracted to what they see?

As most say, people usually don't take a second glance. If they do and they think they clock us, than they need proof. I think usually proof they need is our voice, but I'm not sure on this. If I'm going by phsyical attributes like my overall body size, shoulders, hands, feet, larger sized head, then I think everyone I come across knows I'm trans.

I was with my sister and her friend, and my sister noticed that the guy at the concession stand "ma'amed" me and she thinks he was "being nice". Her words. I'm starting to think seperating from others is best, because her comment makes me question everything all over again. Am I conceited to be offended that my sister who has known me as a male all our lives is in denial or is my sister misjudging my "passing" potential?
I may never know...probably a little bit of both though

Sent from my VS501 using Tapatalk

Something that might help you answer your question:
Have one of your friends take a candid video of you while you out and about. Wait a few weeks before watching it to put some distance between you and the person in the video. It will give you one opinion you can trust.

Quote from: Allison S on October 15, 2018, 11:19:33 AM
I think this topic kind of veered off from my original question... or I didn't really explain it well enough. I only meant if we pass in public, how do we know it's really "passing" or others being nice?
...

Well, I can tell you what I observed.

When I definitely didn't pass, both men and women would be looking at my face as I passed by on the street.  Older women would often scowl, and younger women would sort of smile but break eye contact quickly.

After about 18 months of HRT and a year of real life experience (full time), I had my makeup and body movement largely down.  Walking down the street with a smile (which happens to shorten the upper lip...) other women tended to see me, and do that 'visual check' women often do for each other, looking up and down one's figure for wardrobe choices and to spot (and fix!) problems.  I've hada flipped up collar and a tag fixed in passing by strangers.  Men were not looking at my face so often.  Fairly often I got a return smile from other women my age or a little younger.

After two years now of real life experience (full time), plus facial feminization surgery (FFS), I still have men looking at me.  Well, at my lower torso and hips, which seem to have a mind of their own!.  ("My eyes are up here!"  )Women still do the visual check, and often comment on wardrobe choices when we are standing at a light waiting to cross.  I've had several fun conversations that way. 

I also interact fairly often with women walking dogs during the day in the dog park by my condo.  I have never been misgendered there.

I think passing happens when we are just treated as another woman out in the world, by random folks.  I was getting "Ma'am" way before that by people who expected to get payment or tips from me, but now it seems to be universal.

I tried to be super critical yesterday at the supermarket. Minimal makeup, after work so a bit tired dressed fem (skirt and top) as I always do. I looked and I looked, I tried to find find odd looks etc... there are none. I have to the conclusion I just look like a tall woman. The overwhelming body of evidence points to this.

Some might say I have been lucky and don't have too many masculine traits to give me away. I could list a few if I wanted to... but I can't change them so why bother? Why worry about stuff that will never change?

I think the secret to 'passing' if there is any to stop TRYING to pass and just be you. Wear your skirt or dress, don't put on makeup with your hair in a ponytail and just be you. Don't look for people to out you and if there are some (sure to be somewhere) who cares?

I accept me. I'm as much a women as any other and from extensive obseveration look more womanly than many cis women. There is no 'ideal' women and beauty and confidence comes from within. Let it out, let YOUR light shine and its just not an issue. The greatest barrier to all of us is ... us!

Kill the doubts, squash the what ifs and just get on with living. Then passing is not even an issue because you will.

Eh I'd have to disagree with the girls on here to say you can't really tell if your passing or people are just treating you with respect since they can tell your trying to present one way. Maybe you can't really tell when your in that phase because you have nothing else to compare it to.

For me looking back on when I first started presenting I kinda felt that way too but now that I'm actually passing the difference are really stark.

One of the thing I noticed was before I was passing well I got about an even number of prolonged looks at my face from men and women. Now women never look at my face more than normal but men do probably even more than when I wasn't passing especially old men which is real creepy sometimes getting checked out. Now I get the phrase feeling like a piece of meat haha

Another one looking back is the way women treat me in bathrooms. I never got any ->-bleeped-<- from anyone when I first started presenting, but I guess women would just like keep their distance more. Like
not go to the sink next to me, wait for me to be done to use the paper towels instead of using the one right next to me. And they never talked to me unless it was the rare weirdly almost like they were encouraging me compliment that felt very "hon" esk. Now women in the bathroom stand next to and I don't feel like I'm repelling them in the bathroom and random women I've never met just chit chat sometimes about random things.

Another place I noticed the biggest difference is in bars. When I was first presenting I would have the hardest time in a super crowded bar to get a male bartenders attention while jocking for space holding my credit card out. And no random guys would come up to talk to me. Now male bar tenders seem to wanna take my money much quicker even when it's just as packed. Guys come up to try and start conversations with me ( I remember having to do that with women before transition  I was such a wimp and usually got scared haha). At dance clubs random dudes sometimes try to grind up on me when I'm dancing with the girls  now where when I first started presenting that didn't happen ever.

Last big one I've noticed is small children and waiters. Small children( like ages 5 ish to maybe 9 ish before they learn how to be polite) would sometimes stare at me like I had something written on my face when I first started. You could tell they were trying to figure me out, almost like how they stare at someone with a disability.  Not in a mean way but more a curious one. Now they pay me no mind again like it was when I was living as a dude.

For the waiters one at least here in America I think most waiters are trained to address the women first when taking orders. Usually when I would go out with my sister or a cis friend for lunch / dinner just the two of us when the waiter would take our orders they would more often than not address my sister or cis friend first. Now it's just random like 50 50 who they address first.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I noticed now when at the mall, I don't get the stares that I used to get.  So if it is a open public place I'm not getting read.  If I'm in a restaurant or one on one with someone, I know they have read me and just treat me nice. In the bathroom it has been getting better with how women interact with me.  I may still scare some of them. 

Julie 

The first thing telling that I pass is the shortened physical distances with other women, especially young ladies. In the chairs of public buses or trains and airport lounges, young ladies sit next to me without hesitation. Usually those young ladies avoid sitting next to men. Also in book stores or shopping malls, women approach me very closely. Usually women keep a distance with men in those places.

The second thing is eye contacts. Women do not avoid my eyes, staring at me for a long time, sometimes longer than 10 seconds. Men also stare at me with a kind of predator eyes. Fortunately nowadays young men do not stare so much at strange people, at least here in S. Korea, partly due to the boom of smartphone. They are busy watching their own smartphone everywhere. I feel I am relieved from those stares. Thank you, Steve Jobs.

 

barbie~~

I was reading the newer replies and I didn't even realize I started this thread [emoji23] lol
I can definitely relate with everyone saying. Women don't look at me I've noticed, but I catch men staring... Men greet me when I'm out and about too. I get free drinks at bars and even at a restaurant once with a friend... People have told me that my voice clocks me, so that's a big downside...

Sent from my VS501 using Tapatalk

Thankfully my voice is passable and although still over weight I am visually passable as well. I know this because I get talked over, mansplanned to, and disregarded when it comes to a decision all the time.

One example from today, I'm at a Firestone today to get my car serviced and got mansplaned about the service I should have done. Don't get me wrong I don't mind in this area because it reminds me if I have forgotten to ask for something but It is entertaining when I rattled off the service already completed that isn't needed and he was like how do you know about that? Of course the answer, being truthful, was my boyfriend had me get it done in the summer.

When you go to a trans support group meeting and people don't understand why you are there because they think you are cis.

Quote from: Lynne on January 19, 2019, 04:12:10 PM
When you go to a trans support group meeting and people don't understand why you are there because they think you are cis.

Ha ha, Yes. It's possible.

In my case, my biggest hurdle is my low and manly voice. But sometimes some people, especially foreigners, still regarded me as a cis-woman even after hearing my voice. I am not quite sure whether they clocked me but intentionally called as such, but anyway I was especially thankful that they still called me as a lady after long conversation or lecture presentation.

barbie~~

The two biggest things I notice is that when I pass women on a sidewalk or in a hall, they smile at me now. Also random people try to strike up conversations with me now. Just these past couple of days when I happened to be exiting a building at work at the same time as another woman, and we were going the same direction, we got into a conversation about how the weather was affecting the testing schedule at her kids' school. Then when I got to my building and there was some guy I'd never met in the elevator, and we started talking about how Monday was in fact a holiday.

One of the more common signs is when I'd go to change my name on something, and they'd ask if I'd just gotten married.

That reminds me of one time, when I was changing the name on my bank account, one person was reading me as male, and another in the same room was reading me as female. That got very confusing.

Passing seems to be an amalgamation of the various cues you give off, and not every person focuses on the same ones. I've been using women's restrooms and locker rooms for months and no one has ever given me a second glance let alone confronted me, and I'm 6'4."

Quote from: Lynne on January 19, 2019, 04:12:10 PM
When you go to a trans support group meeting and people don't understand why you are there because they think you are cis.

that would be nice.   

Sometimes you know when people tell you.  I had someone tell me that they didn't know until a mutual friend told them.  That friend had my permission to tell the person, and there was a good reason why they should, but I had assumed it wouldn't be news to them.  It was.

I know that I do not "pass" in public - low voice, broad shoulders, etc.  But it doesn't bother me too much anymore. In the service world, my money is as good as anyone else's, and in crowds most people are just too busy getting on with their day.  When I'm out with my wife, she gets all the attention!!  She has commented frequently that once you pass 60 as a female you essentially become "Invisible" in public.  I do catch both men and women eyeballing me from time to time, trying to figure out what they are seeing!!   
Deb

I think time expressing helps. At some point it becomes who you are and not who you think you should be. I never think about clothing the way I did when I first started to express. I enjoy certain styles and like to wear them. My boss actually commented to me and said who picks out your cloths for you. I know you could not match colors. This was a while ago.

The gym, I wear female gym clothes and love how they fit and feel. I was sooooo self conscious when I started expressing. Gym clothing is so revealing and I was very self conscious.

I am never misgendered. It took time, hormones and a lot of procedures. Most importantly it is confidence or maybe the expectation of a certain behaviour and receiving that outcome.

On the phone I am gendered properly. That was the most difficult of all and it took a lot to get there. I think I do not pass on the phone but when I asked some people at work they said I did. They said I do not sound male in any way. My voice still is healing and has a way to go. I can still hear my old voice in recordings. Higher pitch and younger voice but I still have the sound of my old voice.

I was in the main gym room today doing some arm and chest work and a few guys checked me out, I think.

When I pass a woman at work we smile. I never look at guys unless I know them and then it is to say hi.

I really think I have changed in how I am perceived and how I perceive others. For example, after spin class today there were 4 or 5 woman in a circle and I joined in. I did not feel odd or that I do not belong. Perhaps passing has many levels  some of which are how others see and treat us and others are how we see others and treat them.