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How to refute religious arguments?

Started by AlexUABC, February 26, 2019, 04:30:21 PM

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Ricki Wright

Quote from: Kate.claire on February 26, 2019, 08:16:03 PM
From the dictionary -

religion - a particular system of faith and worship

faith - strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof

rebut - claim or prove that (evidence or an accusation) is false


I believe you seek the impossible. :D

I sympathize though, but as others have said, it's not an argument to win, all you can hope is that their love wins over in time and that they are overcome by a happier version of you.


Also as someone working in genetics of rare undiagnosed disease in newborns... I would say by their rules that God does indeed appear to get things wrong with some frequency.  I know the parents of these children would happily correct God's mistake.  Some have said he/she/it is testing their faith... that's fine... they haven't quite explained what he was doing to the child that lives 3 weeks of a brutal existence and dies.  Seems a callous way to test someone's faith.

@Kate.claire

Nicely said. Bringing logic to a matter of faith is usually a futile endeavor.
At 5 I forgot who I am. Fortunately, who I am protected me all these years until I remembered. Whatever else happens, I will live the rest of my life whole.
My story: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,244130.0.html
HRT 07Nov18
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Janes Groove

You can't have a logical debate where one side uses illogic (belief).

It is by definition impossible.

That doesn't mean you can't make the case and point out that their argument is illogical.  If you have the energy or inclination for that.

Personally I go with the old adage, "It's a fool who takes up a fool's argument."



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AnonyMs

I've only got one relative who religious so it's not really the same, but personally I'd not bother. It would seriously annoy me and I'm not prepared to put up with it.
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Kylo

You can't argue/reason someone into agreeing with you if their initial perceptions aren't even based on fact but on feelings.
"If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."
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Lady Sarah

Attempting to tell someone their religious beliefs are wrong, is like trying to tell someone their political beliefs are wrong. You may as well talk to a wall. At least the wall won't hurt you for having your own beliefs.
started HRT: July 13, 1991
orchi: December 23, 1994
trach shave: November, 1998
married: August 16, 2015
Back surgery: October 20, 2016
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pamelatransuk

Good Morning Everyone

I do have some personal experience of this problem.

First, I am Christian and it is my experience that it is usually the evangelical or "born again" ones who are so against transgender people like us whereas the more traditional Christians are sometimes quite tolerant. Apart from the wing within Christianity (and there are separate wings or philosophies within denominations), it is usually the younger generation who are more understanding of us.

Also I have recently lost a friend who cannot accept me as I am publicly transitioning in Summer and he is an evangelical and told me what I do now to crossdress mainly in private and what I intend in Summer is offensive to God. I tried to reason with him but it was pointless and we have gone our separate ways and I shall probably never see him again.

My 2 arguments to use to these people are:

1. God knows we are transgender and loves us all very much and would never discriminate on grounds of gender.

2. The genitalia do not determine our gender - they just have appeared due to an error which occurred before our birth during our mothers' pregnancy. Our gender is determined by our brain providing we are sane which I am sure you are.

Sadly these and other arguments are likely to fail as they have been brainwashed or are simply ignorant and wish to remain so.

I wish you, Alex, every success both in persuasion and on any future option you may choose as a transgirl.

Hugs

Pamela  xx


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Monica

I have some perspective on this. I'm not a christian, thankfully. I'm Jewish. So most of my experience is there. It's similar to christianity ideologically, especially in orthodox circles, but there are some big differences that make the two faiths incompatible.

There's this blessing that was written in the first century, that orthodox Jews say every morning. The conventional understanding of it, is that you're thanking god for not making you a woman. It's often written off by people, namely women as a throwback to an ancient ideology that's mostly dead today, in a postmodern world where women, for the most part, have the same basic freedoms and rights that men do. But that's an artifact of the translation.

I've always thought it was interesting, what a modern language like english does to ancient texts, often translating the words, but not the real meaning. There's so much tied up in the subtle nuances of a language like hebrew or aramaic that just gets thrown in the toilet the minute you translate it. And you have to, because the grammar is completely different. You can't, in english, wake up and thank god for not doing you into a woman. It wouldn't make sense. So you've got two options with the translation. The first, is to say "thank you god for not making me a woman," which is the one scholars and translators went with. Or, you could translate at as "Thank you god, for not transforming me into a woman." And that would be the correct translation, given the way the words are linked together, and the context of the block of blessings this one is in.

And that's all very acedemic. But it probably means that first century Jews, and by extension early Christians were aware of transgender people, even then. When you have a hormonal imbalance (like I did) that sparks a biological transition, it's nothing fun. It hurts. The existence of a blessing like this shows that there was knowledge of it, and that people approached transgender people with empathy, if not probably some amount of fear. If it wasn't common enough to matter, it wouldn't be in the prayer book.

There are also a couple of other examples in Jewish history and folklore. Like the 13th century rabbi who grew breasts to feed an infant after his (no doubt much younger) wife died. And that's widely retold as a miracle.

As far as the bible... nothing. It's just not in there.

A lot of the same arguments evangelical christians use to justify their anti-trans bigotry are based in exactly the same passages used by extreme christian groups to justify not using the medical system, not vaccinating their children. For a while in america, there was a christian anti-dentistry movement that used, again, all of the same passages. And it's fair to point out that these pieces of theological wisdom are so vague, that if taken this far outside of context... they could mean anything.

There is no anti-transgender content in the bible or anywhere in the commentary literature. Period. There's also no outright homophobia in the bible that isn't directly related to pedophelia by context. Even after Rome showed up and introduced the idea, they still struggled to understand it. You have to understand how simple these people were.

Taking their books, and stretching them beyond recognition to address the problems or concerns of today is silly, pointless, and I would argue incredibly dangerous.

But what do I know?
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Linde

The only person who does not accept me, is a very long term female friend, who considers herself reborn!  She feels I am physically and mentally sick, and need al medical help and God's help o put my rain back in order.  And until this has not happened, she'd rather would stay away from me!

The funny thing about it is that her daughter is married to an evangelical pastor, who is a pastor at the same church she goes to, and both, her daughter and the pastor accept me and are still friends with me.  The daughter feels that her mother just needs some time to come to terms with the fact that her very good old guy friend is now a girlfriend!

It is very often not the teaching of a relevant church, but the way some of the church members understand and interpret this teaching in their own minds that cause the problems!
02/22/2019 bi-lateral orchiectomy






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StacyRenee

There are some great answers here already. I've found that when you quote the Bible back to them, they're thrown off by this. If they're claiming that you have sinned you can bring up John 8:7.

"So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."

Or Matthew 7:1-2

"[1] Judge not, that ye be not judged.
[2] For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."

The gist of them both is that it's only Gods right to judge you for your actions. It is not for mortal man.

Then you can always remind them of Matthew 22:36-40.

[36] Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
[37] Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
[38] This is the first and great commandment.
[39] And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
[40] On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Or simply put, Love God and love your fellow mankind, above all else.



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Monica

My favorite for dealing with evangelicals (and it really pisses them off when you sight this one) is Matthew 7:3-5.
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Linde

Quote from: Monica on February 27, 2019, 01:49:52 PM
My favorite for dealing with evangelicals (and it really pisses them off when you sight this one) is Matthew 7:3-5.
The only problem herewith is that many of them are so very convinced that nothing is in their eyes!
02/22/2019 bi-lateral orchiectomy






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AlexUABC

They are right in spite of the evidence that one has for religious people, there is no reasoning, no matter how much I explain to them, so I only have to look for my happiness, whether they accept me or not but I will not resent my whole life just because they say God is perfect.
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NatalieRene

Quote from: Dietlind on February 27, 2019, 02:10:55 PM
The only problem herewith is that many of them are so very convinced that nothing is in their eyes!

But how do they know this? Do they have noses? Do they see their noses on a daily basis without crossing their eyes?
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Linde

Quote from: NatalieRene on February 27, 2019, 03:15:55 PM
But how do they know this? Do they have noses? Do they see their noses on a daily basis without crossing their eyes?
Just talked with my pastor niece about it.  She says that this is a thing of the Pharisees, they are always right and self-righteous!  In their eyes, they cannot be with failure!  She has some of them in her parish!
02/22/2019 bi-lateral orchiectomy






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NatalieRene

Quote from: Dietlind on February 27, 2019, 03:26:15 PM
Just talked with my pastor niece about it.  She says that this is a thing of the Pharisees, they are always right and self-righteous!  In their eyes, they cannot be with failure!  She has some of them in her parish!
I have an even better argument! Dirty glasses lenses. I know my mind can filter out dirt and finger prints. When I clean them I see much better but I have to check them every now and then because even though specks of dust are all over them and it's clear as day when I take them off and look at them but while wearing them I don't see the dust.
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Monica

Quote from: Dietlind on February 27, 2019, 02:10:55 PM
The only problem herewith is that many of them are so very convinced that nothing is in their eyes!

Well, that's when you make eye contact with them, and plainly tell them that you hope that they come to know Jesus. Hopefully with a straight face.
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Alice (nym)

QuoteIsaiah 56:4-5 King James Version (KJV)

4 For thus saith the Lord unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;

5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

I personally won't be identifying as a eunuch in the future but I've pretended to be a man for so long, I am sure I can put up with being called a eunuch for a few minutes if it annoys an ignorant bible basher who doesn't even know their own scripture. I do like that bit though, 'better than of sons and of daughters'... that's really got to annoy the Christian right.

QuoteGenesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Genesis 2:22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

So God started off trying to make a man but ended up making them both male and female... and then corrected the pronoun to 'them' for an intersex person.

This was a whole chapter before God decided to make woman... and how did God make woman? God made her from man. Took part of a man, and made a woman.


Quote(Matthew 18:7-9; Luke 17:1-4)

42And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. 43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

49For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. 50Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.

The logical conclusion being... If thy genitalia offend thee, cut if off...


And if all that fails... then you can go with the Alice argument:

Don't hate the hate... Start spreading the love.
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Linde

My niece, the pastor says she likes this the best
John 13:34

A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.
02/22/2019 bi-lateral orchiectomy






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Lady Sarah

Many of the bigots that hate us (be they Christian or not) are also racists. Much of the hate is ingrained from church as well as school. Hopefully, as time progresses, society won't be teaching hate anymore.

Sadly, even if everyone were identical, society would still single out individuals based on inane traits beyond that person's control.
started HRT: July 13, 1991
orchi: December 23, 1994
trach shave: November, 1998
married: August 16, 2015
Back surgery: October 20, 2016
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zamber74

I've never had any luck, I usually just try my best to ignore them.  I tried when I was younger, and just found that there was absolutely no reasoning with them, that no matter what passage I would throw their way, they would just say I was interpreting the passage incorrectly.  In fact, if you go to Christian Forums, a lot of what you will see is various Christians arguing with one another, because they can not agree with what their book says.. thus the reason why we have thousands of denominations.

When people spew their religious nonsense my way regarding just about anything, I'll just tell them I'm not part of their religion, they will usually say something outrageous, and I let it slide because I don't want to play their dumb games.  Of course, most religious people are not hate mongers, so this only applies to the wackjobs out there that think they have a deep and fundamental understanding of their God, the Cosmos, and everything in general, because they alone seem to think they have figured out the nature of everything.

How can you possibly argue against such arrogance?   There is no refuting them, as far as they believe, they already have it all figured out.
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