Quote from: Mrs. Oliphant on May 04, 2025, 03:07:08 PMI wasn't feeling well much of last week and noticed I seldom cross dressed or affected my more feminine self (Annika)

I hope each new day brings you a little more strength and light, Annika.

Get well soon! 💗

~ Lilis 🫂

Quote from: Mrs. Oliphant on May 04, 2025, 03:07:08 PMFor me, gender is messy. Most of the time, I think the messiness is awesome.

Gender is like growing flowers on a balcony, most people try and pack it into too few pots! So messy is good. Glad you're feeling better.

I came in to try to contribute to the wonderful thread that Lilis started here, but I can't say I can call myself non-binary, let alone how to express myself as such. It was less than four months ago that I truly considered the possibility that I might be transgender. One thing I can say with some confidence is that I must be transgender because I don't consider myself to be a man - which is how society sees me. Since I've been saying that for at least 20 years, that aspect feels pretty solid for me.

If I'm not a man, then what am I? And does it need to fit into one of society's boxes? Having identified that I don't feel like I belong in box M, why would I conclude that I belong in box F? Being very early in this process of self-exploration and discovery, I find myself flowing from moment to moment between my previously dominant "male" persona to my recently liberated "female" one. There's also a lot of territory between the two, and I now probably spend the majority of my time in that space - neither one nor the other. Does that make me non-binary or genderfluid? I don't know. Does it matter? Is that still trying to reduce something to a box with a label? I've always wondered why so many of routine societal identification includes gender. How often is it relevant?

Mostly, I don't mind much about what to call it or even "what I am" or where it will end up. My wife says it is sometimes like living with someone with DID: "Who am I talking to now?" Fortunately for us both, the personas aren't radically different, and she loves them both/all. What I hope to understand and achieve is what entails *the wholeness of my being* and how to manifest and express it. I just wonder if looking to societal templates (what TanyaG calls "scripts") for what it means to be female/feminine isn't potentially limiting and might prevent the realization of broader, more fulfilling possibilities.

I've never been particularly focused on my physical presentation. I'm healthy, clean, and reasonably well groomed (though I really dislike both shaving and having a beard). Clothing to me has always felt burdensome. Something very primal within me would prefer to be nearly naked most of the time. I loved summers when I was a kid, because I could wear nothing but underwear and tiny shorts and be in bliss. So clothing as a form of self-expression just isn't it for me. The same is true of jewelry, hair, makeup. I just want to be comfortable and practical - and it does seem to me like "women's clothing" offers more comfort in many instances.

Some would consider me an HSP (highly sensitive person), because sensations - especially tactile and auditory - can distract me to the point of being disabling at times. This sensitivity plays a role in my aversion to clothing but it also puts me very much in tune with my body. I'm generally very aware of even very small changes in my body and brain, which can be both a blessing and a curse. I do find my male genitalia to be extremely inconvenient, uncomfortable, and sometimes aesthetically...grotesque. Would I prefer not to have them? Maybe. It is very convenient for urinating in a variety of settings. Does that mean I'd rather have female genitalia? How would I know? I have no doubt they have their pros and cons, too. If I'd been born with them, maybe I'd be objecting to their downsides now, too. Is it that the grass is always greener on the other side?

So, I'm taking my time to feel what I feel and to feel what it's like just to be me - as fully as I'm able. Some things are clear; for example, this beard has to go. My first laser appointment is Wednesday, and I'm thrilled to be doing it. I have a routine physical exam on Thursday and will be telling my doctor of 20+ years that I'm transgender. This afternoon I have another session with my therapist where I'll continue to discuss all of this. I'm laying the groundwork for options that I may choose to pursue in the future, but I'm also nudging forward my expression of myself as a much more complex, multi-dimensional being than what I've done in the past.

Quote from: flowers_and_trees on May 19, 2025, 02:57:16 PMI find myself flowing from moment to moment between my previously dominant "male" persona to my recently liberated "female" one. There's also a lot of territory between the two, and I now probably spend the majority of my time in that space - neither one nor the other. Does that make me non-binary or genderfluid? I don't know. Does it matter? Is that still trying to reduce something to a box with a label?

Thank you for this.

My earliest perceptions of what transgender is were M ----> F, or vice versa. I don't really see myself as totally F yet. My psychologist described me as "asexual transfeminine", not as a transwoman. I now see that as, on a scale between M and F, I am in between, but closer to F than M.

Most of the time, I am just being me without trying to express any gender. It is merely a coincidence that my clothing styles are feminine, but not overtly so. I don't wear makeup or get dolled up very often. It depends on the situation. But when I do, I feel great! So now I wonder if post-op, will I see myself as F, or will I just be moving the needle further in that direction? Time will tell.

Quote from: Lori Dee on May 19, 2025, 03:12:35 PMSo now I wonder if post-op, will I see myself as F, or will I just be moving the needle further in that direction? Time will tell.

Half the fun is letting the needle move. Why settle for one life's experience when you can have more?

Quote from: Lori Dee on May 19, 2025, 03:12:35 PM"asexual transfeminine"

I like that phrase, Lori: asexual transfeminine. And appreciate Pema's self-awareness and considered introspective. Other people's journeys illuminate my own. Thanks.

Quote from: TanyaG on May 19, 2025, 03:18:23 PMHalf the fun is letting the needle move. Why settle for one life's experience when you can have more?

Exactly this. I keep thinking what an amazing gift and opportunity this realization is. Everyone is so much more than the simple binary category we were told we were supposed to be, but the huge majority of people just assume it to be true and so never even consider that there's something else - really an unlimited range of possibility.

Quote from: Lori Dee on May 19, 2025, 03:12:35 PMThank you for this.

My earliest perceptions of what transgender is were M ----> F, or vice versa. I don't really see myself as totally F yet. My psychologist described me as "asexual transfeminine", not as a transwoman. I now see that as, on a scale between M and F, I am in between, but closer to F than M.

Most of the time, I am just being me without trying to express any gender. It is merely a coincidence that my clothing styles are feminine, but not overtly so. I don't wear makeup or get dolled up very often. It depends on the situation. But when I do, I feel great! So now I wonder if post-op, will I see myself as F, or will I just be moving the needle further in that direction? Time will tell.

Thank you, Lori.

A big piece of my experience right now is this sense that I have no idea what I'm doing, that I don't know exactly what/who I am, and that other people have it so much more together than I do. Knowing that others who've been doing this far longer than I still find themselves in "undefined territory" is comforting.

And, really, why should we expect it to be defined? Don't some of the most striking works of art or scientific advancements arise when people look beyond the standard definitions and practices? Isn't that how we evolve as individuals and culture and society?

Quote from: flowers_and_trees on May 19, 2025, 03:26:37 PMEveryone is so much more than the simple binary category we were told we were supposed to be, but the huge majority of people just assume it to be true and so never even consider that there's something else - really an unlimited range of possibility.

I think it's important to hold space for the full range of experiences.

Some people truly do experience their gender as firmly binary, with no inner conflict.

~ Lilis 💗

Quote from: flowers_and_trees on May 19, 2025, 03:33:44 PMI don't know exactly what/who I am, and that other people have it so much more together than I do.

I'm not one of the people who have it more together than you do. I imagine they exist. I imagine it would be nice to be one of them. However, I have met many people who refuse to ask themselves any question they're unable to answer with any degree of certainty. They live in a yes/no, right/wrong, black/white binary world. We don't. 

Quote from: Mrs. Oliphant on May 19, 2025, 07:14:06 PMI'm not one of the people who have it more together than you do. I imagine they exist. I imagine it would be nice to be one of them.

No need to imagine, they're definitely out there. Many are right here in this forum.

I've met quite a few, both online and in real life.

~ Lilis 💗

Quote from: Lilis on May 19, 2025, 06:22:32 PMI think it's important to hold space for the full range of experiences.

Some people truly do experience their gender as firmly binary, with no inner conflict.

~ Lilis 💗

Very definitely. I appreciate you emphasizing this.

As I anticipate having a conversation about all of this with my mother when she visits in a few weeks, I think about how few people have even contemplated the possibility that gender is a very broad (and contrived?) concept. People who haven't are probably likely to be quite content with the choices being offered.

I don't feel like I have an inner conflict other than that I suddenly have infinitely more options than I was aware existed and can now explore them - which does feel a bit overwhelming at times. The biggest challenge I see is finding a way to convey my experience to others who have never questioned what they were told about who they are.

I completely respect - and celebrate - anyone who is truly happy being themselves, whomever that may be. The absence of inner conflict is the ultimate goal, no matter how you arrive there.

Quote from: Lilis on May 19, 2025, 07:46:45 PMNo need to imagine, they're definitely out there. Many are right here in this forum.

I've met quite a few, both online and in real life.

~ Lilis 💗

Amen. People who have it more together than I do are abundant.

Quote from: flowers_and_trees on May 19, 2025, 09:16:13 PMThe absence of inner conflict is the ultimate goal, no matter how you arrive there.

Quote from: flowers_and_trees on May 19, 2025, 09:26:09 PMAmen. People who have it more together than I do are abundant.

Pema, please read this What is gender identity?


~ Lilis 🫂

Quote from: Lilis on May 19, 2025, 09:38:21 PMPema, please read this What is gender identity?


~ Lilis 🫂

I did when I first came here, but I just re-read it. I appreciate the refresher.

Quote from: Pema on May 19, 2025, 09:16:13 PMI think about how few people have even contemplated the possibility that gender is a very broad (and contrived?) concept. People who haven't are probably likely to be quite content with the choices being offered.

In your intro you wrote:

Quote from: Pema on May 19, 2025, 09:16:13 PMI don't hate my body or even my genitals. After 61 years with it, I feel pretty conditioned to life with this configuration. But it does feel "odd" and physically uncomfortable to me. I have no idea at this point what I may decide to do about that. I'm not at all enthusiastic about entering into the medical system (for any reason). My partner has asked, "If someone could snap their fingers and give you good results of a sex-reassignment surgery, would you want it." Yes, I would.

The WHO has a pretty good definition of gender, which is:

'Gender interacts with but is different from sex, which refers to the different biological and physiological characteristics of females, males and intersex persons, such as chromosomes, hormones and reproductive organs. Gender and sex are related to but different from gender identity. Gender identity refers to a person's deeply felt, internal and individual experience of gender, which may or may not correspond to the person's physiology or designated sex at birth.'

I'm a retired doctor who has had a lifelong interest in the psychology of being trans (illuminated by my personal experience!) and I very much associate with your statement that gender is a broad concept. I also agree it's contrived, because gender is something we learn from the age of about three or four and something which society decides, with every society having different rules for gender behaviour.

For people who are strongly binary, sex and gender appear to be the same. This includes cis people, but also trans people who are feel they have been born in the wrong body. In the latter case, changing the physical appearance of their sex (aka 'phenotype') will fix the mismatch for them, because it will make their phenotypical sex and gender expression align.

I considered gender affirming care for a long time. Decades, in point of fact. But in the end, helped by a legion of psychologists and an analyst digging around in my head, I realised it wouldn't be a solution for me. In those days there wasn't a word for it, but I'm non-binary and so have no more attachment to being gendered male than I do to being gendered female. I can quite happily rock both.

The reason I'm throwing my personal experience in here is your comment about how you would have SRS if it could be done in a snap of the fingers? I would too. Still would in fact. But after a lot of thinking, reading and some honest levelling with myself, if I did have GAMC and became a trans woman, all I would have done is put myself on the other side of a two way mirror. Effectively, I would be no better off, because I'm non-binary.

I'm reading the comments I've quoted from you and seeing myself in them Pema. You are right about this gender thing being broad and contrived. From a therapy point of view, maybe it's within that perception of yours you need to look in order to find yourself? I'd hazard a reasonably confident guess that that's going to be a really good starting place for you. Very few people come up with such an accurate framing so fast and you've one shotted it.

Quote from: TanyaG on May 20, 2025, 03:51:32 AMFor people who are strongly binary, sex and gender appear to be the same. This includes cis people, but also trans people who are feel they have been born in the wrong body. In the latter case, changing the physical appearance of their sex (aka 'phenotype') will fix the mismatch for them, because it will make their phenotypical sex and gender expression align.

This! Thank you, Tanya! 💗


~ Lilis 🫂

Quote from: Lilis on May 19, 2025, 07:46:45 PMNo need to imagine, they're definitely out there. Many are right here in this forum.

No argument there, Lilis. So many of the people I've met on this site are beautiful and complete unto themselves. And I, too, have met such people in the 'real' world. But I have also met so many more people who are absolutely certain of God's (or the Creator's) expectations of themselves and of me. I lack that sense of certainty. And that sense of uncertainty gives me hope that I will, someday, fully become. Or, perhaps more accurately, become fully aware of whom I have always been.

Quote from: Mrs. Oliphant on May 20, 2025, 06:57:00 PMAnd that sense of uncertainty gives me hope that I will, someday, fully become. Or, perhaps more accurately, become fully aware of whom I have always been.

"Maybe the journey isn't about becoming anything. Maybe it's about unbecoming everything that isn't really you, so that you can be who you were meant to be in the first place." 

Quote from: Lori Dee on May 20, 2025, 07:15:06 PM. Maybe it's about unbecoming everything that isn't really you,

Beautifully stated, Lori! And thank you so much because it really does seem so much more like an 'unbecoming' than a 'becoming.' Perhaps it's both. Whatever the heck is going on, it is one heck of a rollercoaster ride.