Quote from: Nero on September 19, 2008, 01:15:38 AMI agree with some of what you say, but I'm afraid you're overreaching with the 'childhood falsification' part. Some of us DID have knowledge of ourselves at 2 years of age enough that our parents knew about it.

QuoteThat's complese bullsh*t. Children usually don't speak at that age, and even if they do, they wouldn't know the word "penis."

FWIW, I can remember quite a few things from 2 years old, and most things from 3. I remember my crib, blankie, bottles, all of it. By 4 I was trying to read and figure out what the heck had gone wrong. I can't claim I knew much about genitals that early, but I knew I was a (physical) boy, and that I should have been a girl.

But then... I'm kinda weird that way. I came here knowing everything I know already. I'm just trying to remember what I already know

~ Katie Marie ~

Okay, well I'll just leave you guys with this.

From: http://www.answers.com/topic/gender-identity

QuoteInfancy and Toddlerhood

There is a growing amount of scientific research that suggests gender identity develops at a very early age. Several studies show that infants can discriminate between male and female faces and associate faces and voices according to gender by the time they reach one year old. However, gender-labeling tasks, such as toy identification, do not occur until about age two. Gender identity and awareness of sex differences generally emerge in the first three to four years of a child's life. However, children begin to demonstrate a preference for their own sex starting at about age two.

Gender identification is often associated with the choice and use of toys in this age group, according to a number of studies done in the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s. Sex differences in toy play have been found in children as young as one year old. By age two, children begin to spontaneously choose their types of toys based on gender. Several of these studies show that by age one, boys display a more assertive reaction than girls to toy disputes. By age two, the reaction of boys is more aggressive.

Most two-year-olds know whether they are boys or girls and can identify adults as males or females. By age three, most children know that men have a penis and women have breasts. Also at age three, children begin to apply gender labels and stereotypes, identifying gentle, empathic characteristics with females and strong, aggressive characteristics with males. Even in the twenty-first century, most young children develop stereotypes regarding gender roles, associating nurses, teachers, and secretaries as females and police officers, firefighters, and construction workers as males.

Quote from: Elwood on September 19, 2008, 10:37:49 AM
It's not an opinion. It's an asserted fact, and it's untrue.

There's perfectly well a way to know. Human brain development. Memory does not serve a child until 3 or 4 years old. If someone claims that their mother remembers, than the child must have communicated it, but at such a young age there is no way that was even possible.

It's wishful thinking that makes people believe they wanted a penis since they were an embryo.

I did communicate my gender at that age. Why do you insist on calling people liars? Everybody doesn't have the same experiences as you.



Posted on: September 19, 2008, 12:47:22 PM

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Quote from: Elwood on September 19, 2008, 10:12:57 AM

That's my point.

Posted on: September 19, 2008, 08:11:02 AM

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Quote from: Nero on September 19, 2008, 01:15:38 AMI agree with some of what you say, but I'm afraid you're overreaching with the 'childhood falsification' part. Some of us DID have knowledge of ourselves at 2 years of age enough that our parents knew about it.

That's complese bullsh*t. Children usually don't speak at that age, and even if they do, they wouldn't know the word "penis."

FtMs think they're "alphas on the inside" but it takes more than being an arrogant ->-bleeped-<- to classify as an alpha.

Whoa, just caught this one.
Don't talk to me like that and I really hope you didn't just call me an arrogant ->-bleeped-<-.
Who are you to come in here calling us all liars?

At age 4, my mother caught me straddling the rope swing in our back yard.  She asked what I was doing, I remember saying to her, "I want to see if i was supposed to be born a boy.  this will hurt if i was."  I remember this and have told this story for years having not discussed it with my mother until 3-4 yrs ago.

That is NOT bull->-bleeped-<-.  That is FACT.  If you were not aware of your trans desires or the difference between the sexes, that is your experience and not the universal one.

As Ben Franklin said:

"We must, indeed, all hang together or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately."

You guys should be helping each other, supporting each other and fighting together against an intolerant world... not fighting amongst each other over whose experiences are the most valid.

Making someone else's experiences and perceptions seem less important does nothing to strengthen your own in the eyes of others. And criticism says more about the critic than the criticised. What the individual goes through is down to the individual and them alone. Who is anyone to say what's right and wrong?

You're all guys, you're all different. No better, no worse, just different. And the differences between you can strengthen all of you as a whole... if you let them. Leave the judgement for the outside world you have to live in, lord knows there's enough of that around already.

Touchy, touchy.

It's called CONFIRMATION BIAS. Read about it.

I am not talking about MY experiences, I'm talking about FACTS.

Quote from: Elwood on September 18, 2008, 10:36:44 AM
It's an issue that again gets on my nerves, but I want to try to understand it.

Before I start, I see this stuff both online and offline. This is NOT directed to anyone specific here.

Do guys do this to help with dysphoria? To help with passing? Or is it driven by fear? All I know is that it is one of the things that really gets on my nerves. The "tough guy" attitude is particularly irritating. Some guys will try to always "one up" me. I don't know if it's because I pass or if it is my calm demeanor, but they like to pick a bone with me about something. There's times where a guy will start an argument with me just so he can have an excuse to dominate me verbally. I honestly can't tell if it is from stress, insecurity, or PMS.

I hear a lot of guys talk about fighting. How "a real man's got to defend himself." I don't see manhood as a symbol of violence. I am no less of a man for deciding to use my brain instead of brawn. If someone is going to pick a fight with me, I am going to avoid them. What do a lot of guys say to me? That I'm a wimp and I can't handle it. Avoiding a confrontation isn't "running away," it's being safe. I'm 18 years old. I get into a fight and I can land myself a night in jail. Is proving my manhood worth a light criminal record? I don't think so.

Then there's the fact that a lot of guys pretend not to have emotion. I already talked about this example in another thread, but I'll mention it again; I was at a transgroup and the facilitator of the group asked what we wanted to do next meeting. I said, "Why don't we check-in?" Checking-in is talking about how you're doing, what's on your mind, questions you have... Well, the one of the guys said, "Talk about feelings?" They all awkwardly looked at eachother, seizing the moment to try to stick out their chests and shake off and vulnerability they may have had. I seriously was pissed... As FtMs, we know what it is like to be in a woman's body, have estrogen, live that life; we are not emotionless based on gender. Emotion is not a gender thing. It's a human thing.

Then there's guys comparing body type. I find this terribly offensive. "I have such big hands" or "I'm so tall" and all of that stuff. Then there's the handful of small short guys who awkwardly stand in silence because they don't want to talk about their "feelings." It's a very unhealthy environment. I know guys need to give themselves a pat on the back, but honestly, they need a little more tact. It's a very sensitive issue, and because we're all "manly men" no one's going to say anything about it.

Then there's percieved stereotypes of masculinity. Toughness, dominance, anger, callousness, monotonous, etc. I hear so many guys lower their voice and it just ends up sounding like they're got something in their throat. I just don't get it. Yesterday with my therapist, I spoke with my natural voice, which is quite feminine when I get excited (and I was excited to see him). He did not think me any less trans or male. I admit it; I tone my voice down a little to help pass. But there's a point where it's too much and sounds ridiculous... And I don't know why guys can't hear themselves.

Again with the tough guy attitude. Guys like to tell me "how it is." In the end, it turns out to be "how they think it is," but they have to act like they're right, because of that whole male superiority thing. Because they see other men do it, they feel like they also have got to squash others to look bigger or better. I just don't understand it, and it really gets on my nerves. My condition; being a man in a woman's body, does not make me feel the need to be overly masculine or compensating. I am just me, dealing with the confusion of being in this body. I don't see how being an alpha male would help anyone who is in this situation.

Which leads to another point; overpacking. I just don't get it. Some guys pack way too much (with like a 6 inch flaccid) and they're convinced that's the "appropriate size" for them. "If I was born male, I would be this well hung." Does it even really matter? I was hesitant to purchase the 3.5 because I was worried it would be over the top. I happen to know the men in my family are well endowed and yet I was still conscious. I don't know if anyone else is willing to see this, but a lot of guys go completely over the top.

Then there's the most annoying; fabrication. "I was 2 years old and wanted a penis." Please. A little kid doesn't even know what that is, and if they saw their brother's, it wasn't very prominent and they likely wouldn't even understand the difference. I hear guys tell stories that are way over exaggerated again and again in an attempt to make their transhood seem more "valid." I told my therapist that I didn't have a prominent male questioning until I was around 8-10 years old, and that I hadn't had a strong male identity until I was well into my teen years. That didn't make me any less trans; it just made me a later onset. So with everyone saying they've known since birth; you're only lying to yourselves. Some people, or rather, most people, live their lives as a lie, or at least partially. I for one am a firm believer that we ought to be honest with ourselves. A true man, that strong, "manly man" who can take anything, would face the truth, even though it might sting.

So I get called weak all the time. People say, "You make threads like this to boost your manliness because you're insecure." You can believe that. I personally made the thread because I was irritated by a particular FtM I recently observed... I wanted him to be himself because his mask was slipping and it didn't look good at all. I sometimes think guys have these masks on and don't realize it, so I'm bringing the issue to the forefront.

Although you can't entirely disprove someone being 2 and wanting a penis, I pretty much mostly agree with this. I suppose it kinda reminds me not to ditch what I've enjoyed as a male for so long... Well those things are geeky as hell for the most part, so I guess I'm pretty set.

I also didn't seriously question myself until puberty hit me. I was almost unaware of what I was until she was in peril cause of the T or something... Maybs

But Yeah. I think you're smart to not lose sight of your emotions as a man. Its much more healthy.

And wow... Effing get along.

I remember my grandfather holding me. He died when i was 1 and a half. possible? apparently. do i remember gender issues that far back? hell no. of course, i was sheltered and didnt know what sex was till i was like 8. My mom likes to tell the story about how i said i wanted to be a daddy when i grew up when i was 3 (i think).

imo, there are no facts when it comes to pshychology.

Quote from: Leiandra on September 19, 2008, 12:34:09 PM
As Ben Franklin said:

"We must, indeed, all hang together or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately."

You guys should be helping each other, supporting each other and fighting together against an intolerant world... not fighting amongst each other over whose experiences are the most valid.

Making someone else's experiences and perceptions seem less important does nothing to strengthen your own in the eyes of others. And criticism says more about the critic than the criticised. What the individual goes through is down to the individual and them alone. Who is anyone to say what's right and wrong?

You're all guys, you're all different. No better, no worse, just different. And the differences between you can strengthen all of you as a whole... if you let them. Leave the judgement for the outside world you have to live in, lord knows there's enough of that around already.

I think on the surface, everyone agrees. Then there are folks who percieve sharing one's experiences, things about which they feel proud or grateful, or decisions on what their identities mean to them as De Facto attacks. So the personal gnosis and what few good feelings one may have are immediately flamed without said folks examining their motivation, having respect for the gnosis and experience of others, etc. It's utter gaslighting.

Well, we all agree that posturing is lame.  I think that's the only consensus that has really been reached in this thread.  It would be lovely to see a discussion on gender politics such as this without namecalling and mudslinging, though.

Quote from: Mister on September 19, 2008, 04:55:22 PMWell, we all agree that posturing is lame.  I think that's the only consensus that has really been reached in this thread.  It would be lovely to see a discussion on gender politics such as this without namecalling and mudslinging, though.

People get over defensive because they see these things in themselves.

Dan, where are these facts?  Only facts I've seen ar the ones proving against what your saying.   And is real experience less fact than something some thinker comes up with?

Oh, you've done it now.

I told myself I wasn't going to post this thread but now you put the bait out. Here's the kill:

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,44005.0.html

Still doesn't prove that some people may be telling truth when say they remember this stuff.  Just says there are some who may or are exagerating.  You can't go around and say every single person who says this is lying.  I see no proff that you can't begin to notice it at 2 years old.  I personally don't remember gender distorphia at age 2 but I do remember some things from age 1.  Mostly images.  Being held up by my grandmother etc, and I have very poor short term memory at least.

I'd like to see people prove it. Because for them to tell me to prove they didn't, that's the burden of proof logical fallacy.

Quote from: Elwood on September 19, 2008, 08:28:26 PM
I'd like to see people prove it.

I'll bite. Ok, say nobody can prove it. What would that do for you?

Bait? Kill? Hunting metaphors from a Dapper Dan? Slipping masks and overcompensation from the accuser?

Absence of proof does NOT equal proof of absence.

Have a little respect for the process of others. Everyone gets where they're going in a way that works for them. Disrespecting other people's path is just uncool. Don't we have enough obstacles already?

Play Nice In The Sandbox, folks.

Quote from: Elwood on September 19, 2008, 08:28:26 PM
I'd like to see people prove it. Because for them to tell me to prove they didn't, that's the burden of proof logical fallacy.

But this whole argument is littered with ad hominem logical fallacies. And bringing cognitive biases into this is probably the biggest one of all, and the one that does least to strengthen your stance. All that does is try and discredit people by trying to prove that the reason why they believe something is wrong, rather than trying to prove that what it is they believe is wrong.

'You're wrong because your way of thinking is unsound' rather than 'You're wrong because the concept/experience can be proved to be incorrect/impossible'.

That's not a strong argument.

Posted on: September 20, 2008, 05:47:02 AM

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And with relation to the above quote, the burden of proof is on you, Dan, because you are the one who made the accusation of overcompensation. You're the one that takes issue with the claims. The people making them aren't accusing you of anything, so they have nothing to prove.

It's innocent until proven guilty, not guilty until proven innocent, so it is down to you to prove people are overcompensating rather than down to them to prove they aren't.

But this whole argument is littered with ad hominem logical fallacies. And bringing cognitive biases into this is probably the biggest one of all, and the one that does least to strengthen your stance. All that does is try and discredit people by trying to prove that the reason why they believe something is wrong, rather than trying to prove that what it is they believe is wrong.

Great answer.

And I would think it would vary, as most of life does, with some starting pre 2 and others later - remember as Piaget taught, its the sequence of the learning that makes the difference, so that might push it up in some, back in others.

And, at this point, its pretty hard to come up with concrete proofs either way, and its not like it would be easy, but more like impossible, to come up with funding, much less human subjects, to test theories about sex and sexuality with kids under five.  Its going to remain pretty much a mystery. 

Quote from: iFindMeHere on September 19, 2008, 11:35:00 PMAbsence of proof does NOT equal proof of absence.

But absence of proof does equal absence of a decent defense.

To lie to one's self and others is creating a false path. I see nothing wrong with disrespecting a false reality.

Posted on: September 20, 2008, 09:23:54 AM

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Quote from: Leiandra on September 20, 2008, 12:20:02 AMAnd with relation to the above quote, the burden of proof is on you, Dan, because you are the one who made the accusation of overcompensation. You're the one that takes issue with the claims. The people making them aren't accusing you of anything, so they have nothing to prove.

It's innocent until proven guilty, not guilty until proven innocent, so it is down to you to prove people are overcompensating rather than down to them to prove they aren't.

Ah, but it was after I had SUGGEST overcompensation that someone had decided to claim that they could remember wanting a penis at a very young age. That was an additional argument, and their responsibility to prove.

And that innocent until proven guilty phrase applies to law, not reality.