Hi CD Derek,
You should never just quote a single verse without looking at the text around it and as Terri said the society that it God was talking too. I can quote may single verses that at face value are wrong or don't able to every society.
Try these:
DT 21:18 If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." 21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.

DT 22:5 Do not wear clothes of wool and linen woven together.

DT 22:12 Make tassels on the four corners of the cloak you wear.

How about the New Testament (after Jesus came)

Apostle Paul Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, 15 but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory?

Jesus Luke 14:26 "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be my disciple.

Apostle Paul 1TI 2:12 "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve."

Duet 22: 5 and of these verses that I just quoted need to be read knowing the social and political situation at that time the verses were wrote.

As Terri said

QuoteIf he were to wear woman's clothing he would not be recognized as a soldger.  Or he may hide in the clothing of women to avoid battle or for protectoin.

Quotefor the purpose of sneaking into another mans harem unnoticed

You always need to you look a little deeper to find out what the real reason was for any command or or strange statement in the bible.Too may have misused words from the bible to control subjugate and or eliminate people and societies.

Terri

QuoteIt was a control technique to keep women subservient.

I don't think this verse was originally intended to make women subservient but to protect the childbearing members of the society. The desire of God and the Hebrews was to increase the population for many reasons.  But, like any good politician would do, it was latter used for that purpose.
   
To defend Jesus statement, and I need to here for those who have not study the bible, Jesus Luke 14:26 "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be my disciple. , as I'm sure Derek that you know, he was used these extremes to give emphasis to the fact that we should love God more than anyone or thing in this world.

Hope this helps.

Jillieann

hey,
           I first want to say that it is a great plesure to be able to find this website or chat area. I do want to say that CD is one aspect of my life i am trying to better understand. Being a christian i have heard the deuteronmy verse and contextually it hasnt really convinced me. For only practicing a few times i cant say i have a good understanding of CD to which i hope to atain. There was a web site i found that has helped me understand it from a christian point of view outside Deuteronmy and i just wanted to pass it on and see what you folks think of it. Thank you very much and God bless
     James
           

Welcome, James, and thanks so much for stopping by.  I think you'll find Susan's a terrific atmosphere to meet others who are on your journey and can offer support, advice, conversation, and plenty of chuckles along the way.  I hope you'll decide to stick around. 

Our Wiki has tons of information, and is constantly being updated--be sure to check it out in your wanderings, as wel as our site rules.  Not everyone checks the spirituality board, so when you feel comfortable, stop by Introductions and tell us a little more about yourself.  It'll give us a chance to get to know you. 

I'll have to wait till later to read the link you gave us, as I'm off to work, but I couldn't pass up the chance to just say 'hello and welcome' ! 

Valerie

I read the site. I actually had it linked off of my site. I have rectified that.

This person assumes that his situation would be the only one that was possible. That his path, his temptation, his interpretations, or his personal test of faith was the only one which god or man could conceive of. What arrogance.

When you follow the right path you are at peace with yourself in mind and soul. When you follow the wrong you know it. Most people who dress as another gender has felt guilt about doing so at one time or another. However I strongly feel that this is due to societal conditioning not gods. We all have attempted to hide our cross-gender proclivities. Most of us have attempted to purge it to suppress it. To be the man we believe that we are expected to be. However it bursts out again no matter how far down we bury it.

The amazing thing is when I came out of the closet. When I quit hiding myself. When I accepted the path that I was intended to follow. The guilt, pain, and sorrow went away.

This person states the following reasons for believing that crossdressing is a sin.

Quote from: 1. It is deception - Yes, most of us to some degree modify our appearance to cover imperfections and to look our best (although sometimes the modifications look worse than the imperfection!). However, to equate this with being completely transformed to look like the opposite sex is a huge leap of reasoning.

It can be done for deception but only if you are doing it with the intention of deceiving. Another reason I firmly believe in informed consent before any intimacy. If you are crossdressing to be able to go into a womans locker room and ogle the women. It is deception. If you are a transsexual and do not see woman as being any different than yourself then it is not deception. Only you and God can know if your reasons are for deception. I know I feel I am committing deception every time I go into a men's room.

Quote from: 2. It violates God's ordained gender role for a person - God doesn't make mistakes, but Satan can take small hurts and flaws in our upbringing to cause gender confusion. This gender confusion can cause many kinds of relationship problems.

God, did not ordain gender roles society did. Gender roles other than childbirth are artificial and created by man.

"God doesn't make mistakes" oh so many stones I can throw there

Even if I grant that god can't make mistakes we still have our bodies, mankind, genetics, chemicals, nature, and nurture.

Why do you assume that this isn't a part of gods plan for your life for your soul's spiritual growth. I see no conflict
with my belief in God or Jesus based on his teachings while he was alive.

Satan is a scapegoat for religion. Without him religions would be held responsible by their followers when bad things happen. So they created satan to give them an easy out. So he's a way of avoiding personal, social, and societal responsibility when bad things happen. Oh ya! The devil made him/me do it!

Quote from: 3. A cross-dressing father is a confusing model for children.

If the problem is kept hidden in the dark closet and not dealt with in light yes it can be confusing.

My own niece and nephew show this is a fallacy. They accept me for what I am because to them I have always been that way.
It's perfectly natural to them. They have none of the ingrained prejudices that society would have otherwise given
them. They go to church, my sister raises them in a Christian home. She lets me take them to the movies and out from time
to time. We have a perfectly normal and natural relationship between us.

Quote from: 4. Cross-dressing is normally a very self-centered activity.

So illogical, and being a self-centered activity makes it a sin? *laugh*

Quote from: 5. It is not healthy for most marriage relationships. True, there are some exceptions to this, but most women I have
spoken with on the subject indicate a) they want a masculine male as a husband and b) they don't care to be in a virtual
lesbian relationship with the other woman as their husband.

See #3 above

Based once again on prejudices ingrained by society. They are taught by society from birth this is what makes a woman,
this is what makes a man. This is what you should do. I don't say this is inherently bad. I do however state again that it
makes it something of man not something of god and thus isn't a sin.

Quote from: The real test of whether or not something is a sin is your comfort level in doing it in front of people you go to church
with. For example, would you feel at ease dressing up and attending church "en femme?" If the answer to this question
is "no" or if you feel guilt over cross-dressing, then it fails this test.

Most people feel guilt over picking their noses. Eatting a good meal, Buying something nice for themselves. So this must
be a sin?

I do not go to churches. I feel modern religions are the anti-Christ described in the bible. Their goal is to separate you from god
and to act as a gate keeper between you and god. Such an unholy activity. That being said I am that I am, hrm where have I
heard that before They take me or leave me as I am either way I won't let it get between myself and my god. You shouldn't
let them either. God loves you for what you are not for what others expect you to be. Keep this in mind when you run across
one of these oh it's a sin wackos.

Quote from: Susan on December 27, 2005, 07:55:33 PM

I feel modern religions are the anti-Christ described in the bible. Their goal is to separate you from god
and to act as a gate keeper between you and god. 

Susan, shame on you.  I believe you forgot the most important function of a church.  Seperate you from your money and getting a tax deduction!

I am not even going to mention the catholic church and thier important function.

Leigh

hello agian.

I just want to say thank you to susan for your imput on this web page. I look forward to getting to know you all better. Thanks and God bless! James

QuoteIf we believe that we are all God's creation and that 'God doesn't make mistakes' (as site in question states)

Then I am to believe that this god makes children who are deformed at conception or by birth?  Children who are doomed to a life of mental or physical handicap?

If indeed this is the doing of a god please spare me from the benovelance passed on by this entity.

Note:  This is not directed at any one person or and one or all religions, just the ideology of perfection.

*I know I am coming in years later after the original posters but I must give my opinion about this. Most of this is a response to Susan but some is general for everyone else*

I don't think wearing clothes itself is wrong but the reason why you wear clothes from the opposite sex. There have been a lot of things said here that sound good and logical but are not right.

The common phrase I have already heard is that God accepts us for who we are. In reality, God accepts us despite who we are...We are all born in sin and have different temptations throughout our whole life. It is easy for people to excuse their temptations as just "who they are" and believe that God accepts them regardless. God is holy and righteous. Just because God has forgiven our sins when we accept Him does not mean that future sins are licensed and alright.

The Bible does give different roles to men and women throughout the Bible. Pretending like this is not the case or explaining it away because of societal pressures does not change that God Himself gave different charges or roles to husbands versus wives, fathers versus mothers, men versus women. From the beginning God did establish gender roles beginning with Adam. He created Adam to rule over the animals throughout the world and he created Eve as his helper to assist him. They are equal human beings in God's eyes but do have different roles. It is natural to fight the argument that God did define gender roles because if there are gender roles then you would have to concede that one could violate those roles by cross dressing. I strongly urge everyone to not interpret scripture based on what you want it to say but rather what it says.

You also can't base right and wrong off of what "feels right" or "feels good" or everyone would do what is right in their own eyes (Proverbs 16:25, 21:2). It might feel good to hold a million dollars after stealing it from a bank but that does not mean the good feeling overrides the wrong of stealing. Our natural desire is to sin and be selfish so if we are to do what feels good or right we are in great trouble.

It sounds like Susan may believe that God does make mistakes too by her saying "Even if I grant that god can't make mistakes..."  This is a very telling thing if you believe that God makes mistakes. It is easy to then think if God makes mistakes then it isn't that bad if I do...

Satan is used as a scapegoat by many people but is illogical to use as a reason for his nonexistence. Susan says a lot of things that may sound logical or excusable but saying you believe Satan was made up flies in the face of the Bible itself. God said that Satan exists (Genesis, Job, Gospels, Revelation, etc) and if you don't believe that I would question if you are reading the Bible at all before you make these claims on forums and using God's, Jesus', or the Bible's authority to back you up. The Devil is prowling around like a lion seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:. Satan is influencing the world so don't dismiss that, but as you mentioned, we are personally responsible for our own actions.

As to the objection about the cross-dressing father: You can train anyone to think anything is acceptable. It is possible to have a normal relationship in all kinds of conditions but doesn't mean it is correct. I would argue it is wrong because fathers do have a distinct role from the mother and should not be confused. Most people would think stealing from one another is acceptable if people did not teach them that stealing is wrong.

Self-centered activity: All sin is based on selfishness. a self-centered activity does not guarantee something is a sin but is a good indicator of your true desires.

Regarding the marriage relationships: This is not a prejudice of society. It is such a lame scapegoat (as you used before) to argue that everything is from societal conditioning and nothing more. If God created you as a man you are intended to be a man. If God create you as a woman you are intended to be a woman. To behave and dress like a woman when you are a man is flying in the face of how God created you. You are implying that God messed up and that you know better than He. To say that God doesn't care or that it is merely man's rules is completely wrong. If gender roles didn't factor in why would God even bother separating out charges to fathers, husbands, wives, mothers, children, etc if we are able to choose whatever we wish to be?

I disagree with the person that said that the real test of a sin is your comfort level. Again, whatever is right in our own eyes becomes the test which tends to fail most of the time to be right.

Another underlying problem is that you don't go to churches because you "feel" modern religions are the anti-christ. You make many true claims based on some religions but you cannot canvas every religion that way. God clearly says not to forsake assembling together in the book of Hebrews and the purpose is for fellowship and sharpening one another in the scripture. It is not only a relationship between you and God. I would encourage you Susan to re-evaluate your life. Based on your closing comments you seem to make choices about who you are going to be then give God and others a "take it or leave it" attitude. This is neither biblical nor good.

Also to Terri who said "And never forget that with the coming of jesus the New Testiment, or HIS word replace the old teachings." This is not true. Jesus specifically said he came to fulfill the law not to destroy it. Also read Romans because it talks a lot about how Jesus' gift of grace does not nullify the law. The law in the Old Testament was to serve as a way to know what is right. Sin uses the law to condemn us (cause us to die as Romans put it). The law does not condemn us but sin condemns us.

In closing, I want to say that I struggle very frequently with the topic of CD. I am a Christian and I will openly admit that it does feel great to cross dress but this is all I hear from these forums is to "be all you can be," "be yourself," and "do what feels right." These sound good but are not biblical. The book of Jeremiah calls the heart of man "desperately wicked". When we accept Jesus we are to be transformed and shaping our lives after God's will, not continuing on in our old ways or habits. All I hear from these forums are "This is what make me happy, feel good, or feel true to myself. Do you really think that God is just about our own personal happiness?" Happiness or feeling true to yourself does not make something right. Rather we are to follow God's command to "Be holy as I am Holy". If "being ourselves" is right and what God really wants then we wouldn't be admonished throughout the Bible to be self-controlled, not conforming to our former evil desires, etc.

1 Peter 1:13-16
Therefore, prepare your minds for action; be self-controlled; set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed. As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."

Thank you unknowncd. These are some interesting arguments.

If I may, I would like to address these, as best as I can.

As a Christian, I take the word of Jesus as paramount.

Jesus told us not to judge each other.

Jesus told us not to kill.

Jesus told us that when we pray we must do it in a closet with the door shut. He further clarified this by saying that we must never make any sort of exhibition of our devotions.

Now Jesus said many other things, but I will start with these.

With the injunction, not to judge, Jesus over turned a large part of the ancient laws that had grown up. Simply because, many of these laws involve one man judging another.

With the injunction not to kill, Jesus overturned almost all of the oter laws that had grown up, since they involved killing in one way or another.

With the injunction to keep our devotions private, Jesus overturned all notions of a church.

What was left, were the 10 Commandments.

Jesus didn't add to these. He clarified them.

The only commandment dealing with any sexual matters is the 7th, don't commit adultry. Jesus clarified this by saying that thinking about it was the same as doing it. He made this point a number of times, in other contexts. So, it would seem to be a pretty important clarification.

I will answer to God alone for my actions and how I have lived my life. I am responsible for my own soul. I owe no man any explaination for how I adhere to God's law.

And God's law is the 10 Commandments. Even Jesus didn't add on any more.

As for satan. I'm sure evil does indeed exist. But hell?

The notion of hell is a place where the sinful will go and remain, in torment, for all eternity.

So, what those who preach this are saying is that God will spend all eternity, watching people suffer and be tormented. That is a pretty mean thing to say really.

Imagine if I were to say to you that your mother or father takes pleasure in watching others suffer. You would probably, and rightly, be pretty hurt by this.

Ask yourself, how angry would a parent need to be with their child to cause that child such harm that it would suffer for the remainder of its life?

Then ask yourself what sort of parent could cause permanent, painful harm to their child, then put that child into an enclosed place and take any sort of satisfaction from watching that child suffer for the remainer of their lives?

Yet, those who claim that hell exists are actually saying that God intends to do this, not just for the brief period of life, but for all eternity?

There are many things written in the Bible. There is a clear instruction saying that if a maiden is raped and doesn't screem then she is to be taken to the gates of the city and stoned to death.

I doubt any reasonable person could even think of applying this.

The Bible is a narritive. It is not a list of regulations. It needs to be read in context.

Homosexuality, for example, can be very damaging in some situations. I went to an all boys boarding school. Sex was one of the four taboos. The reason was that we were all living together, sleeping closely, even side by side occasionally!! We showered together and so on. Just as in a family, we needed to absolutely trust each other. Just as in a family, if someone fears that another may try physical contact, it will quickly destroy the cohesion of the group.

As young boys, we talked about sex, we laughed about sex, we dreamed about sex. Every boy in that school as every boy everywhere, masturbated. But alwasy in private. Because, even though masturbation is perhaps one of the most normal activities among young boys, it too was considered part of the taboo about sex.

The views expressed in the Bible, except those of Jesus and of course, the 10 Commandments, which came from God, are views of individual people.

Some contradict others. Some are quite weird. But they are records of the thoughts of these people.

Not commandments. Not law. Just the personal views of these mortal individuals who are subject to the same Commandments, as clarified by Jesus, as the rest of us.

I hope you will find the peace you are seeking.

Saying that we should just learn to live with Gender Identity Disorder is like telling a bipolar person to just "learn to live with it" Or a schizophrenic person to stop hearing voices. It used to be believed that these disorders were just devils oppressing or possessing someone but we know now that they are very real medical problems that can be treated. My uncle was schizophrenic and very much a Christian but with out treatment he was a complete loon! God gave us doctors for a reason. Even Jesus' disciple Luke was a physician.

While these conditions do not affect the body as far as appearance goes, they can actually kill the sufferer. If there were a procedure discovered that could cure Downs Syndrome would we not give it to those with Downs Syndrome?  Or do we say, "No, God made you that way so you have to live your life and just learn to live with it." ridiculous!

Mathew 18:8-9

( 8 ) Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. ( 9 ) And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

seems this person, unknowncd registered just to post #27 and hasn't returned.

That kinda sums him up really.

I do hope unknowncd can find some peace.

Christianity is based on the revelation of God in the Bible. It does not matter what a "denomination" or local church says, but what the Bible says.  In Deuteronomy it says that God detests cross dressers:

Deuteronomy 22:5 (New International Version)

5 A woman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing, for the LORD your God detests anyone who does this.

So to be a Christ follower, I strive to have the same character as God which means that I also detest this act.

Quote from: Eddie_the_Eagle 2 on August 20, 2010, 02:32:32 AM
Christianity is based on the revelation of God in the Bible. It does not matter what a "denomination" or local church says, but what the Bible says.  In Deuteronomy it says that God detests cross dressers:

Deuteronomy 22:5 (New International Version)

5 A woman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing, for the LORD your God detests anyone who does this.

So to be a Christ follower, I strive to have the same character as God which means that I also detest this act.

Ummm - sorry to rain on your parade here but that passage that you all like to quote so freely comes from a section in the bible which also contains food regulations which Jesus and the apostles later explicitly overturned, injunctions to stone adulterers, warnings against not wearing mixed fibres which many people now do with impugnity.

So why the selective memory when it comes to this one passage?

Why not stand up and publicly call for stonings to be resumed, sock makers to be condemned, and all pork butchers to be run out of town? Because frankly until you are TRULY consistent on ALL such matters I fear this is going to look like what it is. Pure prejudice dressing itself up in the clothes of religious respectability.

Oh and while we are about this how about someone like me who was born intersexed, in other words in between sexes. Clearly I can't wear either set of clothes because I was not fully one thing or another. What do I do - run about naked?  hmmm - though now I think about it that might even be fun

I fear that you have to face the facts that the bible was written in an age before modern medicine my friend. It may contain many important religious insights, it might even be, as you believe, inspired, but fundamentalism of the type that you espouse simply isn't a logically viable option.

I have read that the prohibition on cross-dressing was due to it being part of Cannanite religious ceremonies. As such it was to be avoided by the Israelites as being taboo.

Further to what Jen said, if God doesn't make mistakes then please explain AIS, Kleinfelter's and other intersex conditions. Or even colour blindness.

Definitely a case of not seeing the forest for the trees.

Why don't you take a look at what the people who wrote the bible had to say on that very verse...

http://www.beki.org/crossdress.html

Oh while I was looking at that I noticed a new one relating to SRS...

http://www.beki.org/crushed.html

My simple reply to anyone who throws that verse at me is simply this... "I am not a man. Your argument is invalid" 

I'm not a Christian myself, but I think that it really just depends on your motives. If it's a sexual fetish or causes arousal then it quite clearly falls under that category of lust. Otherwise the Bible doesn't say anything about it.

As for this scripture:

Quote from: Male-CD on December 04, 2005, 08:04:43 PM
Duet 22:5 A woman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing, for the LORD your God detests anyone who does this.

According to a close Jewish friend who was quite versed in not only the Bible but also in many of the Jewish texts that the Bible was taken from, that verse was meant to be specifically speaking of the religious garments that the Jews were commanded to wear in the old testament. Mind you this was told to me many years ago so the details might be a little off, but the gist of it is that 'Duet 22:5' was never referring to cross dressing.

You can also think of it this way:
If gender specific clothing was a moral issue then what decides what's acceptable for each gender? After all, the first humans came into this world completely naked and there is no mention in the Bible of God telling Adam or Eve what to wear.
And take for example the fact that not long ago it would have been considered cross dressing for women to wear pants. So does that mean that morals are subject to cultural change? Does a generation of women committing the morally repugnant act of cross dressing suddenly make it morally right just because it became the norm?

The word of God says that the promise of eternal life in Christ can not be made null by the law which came after. It merely came to show all have sinned and that only Christ can save.

Since the entire gospel is about Christ and his church he is the man and the church, his bride are the woman. Therefore she should not wear that which pertaineth unto him and he shall not wear her garment.

He is a High Priest forever and he wears the breastplate of judgment. When the church or a minister passes judgment on another person they sin in that they are putting on his breastplate of judgment. For the woman (church) to usurp authority over this man (Christ) and pass judgment is an abomination in the eyes of God the Father.

She (woman or church) is the betrothed of her Husband and her garment is a veil. That veil through types and shadows is His Spirit. As written, they (the wicked) have a covering but not of my Spirit.
If Christ were to have our spirit put upon him in hopes of eternal life it would also be an abomination in the eyes of God his Father. As he said, I have power to lay down my life and power to take it up again, this commandment have I received of my Father.
He will not put on her righteousness (as filthy rags) nor spirit.

Therefore, that which pertaineth unto the man is the right of Christ to be the one to judge the quick and the dead.

That which is the woman's garment is the covering of the Spirit of God.

Other aspects of clothing are subject to fad, culture or church doctrine, all the which cannot save the Christian without fear of God and faith in the blood of Christ shed as the only Lamb of atonement acceptable unto God.
 

I really like a lot of the things people have said in this thread.  Usually people's comments about this subject seem either more left winged or more right winged.  These seem fairly balanced.  As a teenager I as in a similar situation (but maybe a more depressed one) to the first poster.  Now much further into the future I find myself a happily married man with two children, yet I still struggle with socially unexceptionable personality traits and desires.

I've created a blog about my life and thoughts and feelings that I feel may be helpful to the viewers of this thread.

crossdressingchrisitan.blogspot.com

Personally I think God will know who you are underneath, regardless of what you are wearing.