Quote from: interalia on August 29, 2010, 09:32:20 AM
Wow, I cannot believe I didn't see this thread earlier, especially with so many replies.

I personally detransitioned and know many others who have too.  The HBSOC (Harry Benjamin Standards of Care) which was the primary method of gatekeeping back when I transitioned in the late 90's, was and still acts as a godsend.  Without it I might very well have made a major mistake.

I lived full time, had a job, dated, and was going to school and I was very happy with my female role.  However, I couldn't get past the nagging doubts that all this was in my head.  Regardless of the fact that my brain was telling me "I'm a girl, I'm a girl, this is right, being male was wrong" I felt like my brain, like with so many other conditions of the mind, could have been lying to me.  I also hated the lying and deceit that went with transition to maintain stealth - modifying the experiences of my past constantly, never feeling like I could honest or real with anyone.  I thought "damn I went to all this trouble to 'be myself' and I cannot even be honest now!  I'm still a in a box!"

Well I got sick of the box and the lies and starting 'coming out' that I was transgendered.  For some reason, having people know of my past made me feel more at ease - a lot more at ease but it caused problems of its own.  Dating prospects were more difficult obviously and some of the people I knew who were cool with the female me, couldn't handle that the person they thought was always female wasn't.

The final thing that kicked me into going back, to detransitioning was seeing all of the incredibly disappointed and unhappy people who were transitioned.  Im not talk about on the forums, but in real life.  After all they did, they still regretted, still bemoaning things they were missing in their lives and those sadnesses were consuming them.  Those who didn't pass at all were even more depressed and I had to deal with a number of other TG people I knew committing suicide.  I started to think "there has to be another way!  Not everyone can have a successful transition, and those who do seem to have the potential for intense lingering sadness".

So I decided, even though I might be one of the lucky ones who transitioned at 19, could pass easily and quickly, I realized I wanted to see if I could make it as a guy again, so long as I was "out", didn't live in the box of being male, and tried cognitive behavioral therapy techniques to control the triggers that provoked my GID.  After all, if it didn't work, I could always go back right?

***

Let me mention about something Kate said.  Kate said that the RLE, as annoying as it is to many transpeople, is very important for weeding out those who could otherwise live without transition.  I echo that so strongly it moves me to tears.  The detransition group I am a part of has VERY strict confidentiality rules - for one to protect their identities, and two to protect them from members of the trans community who don't want to hear about them, but I will tell you this.

Nearly every post op I've met who detransitioned only got into the mess they did because they DIDN'T follow the the proper order set out by the SOC or WPATH.  Sure, roll your damned eyes at me you doubters and naysayers and "I should be able to whatever I want"ers, but I'm serious - gravely serious.  These people were the same way, they were convinced they would DIE without transition, they never thought for a moment they'd regret any part of it, afterall, their whole lives they wanted it.  They listened to people who said the RLE was dumb and gatekeepers were annoying, and justified hurrying the process.  They also cite pressure from other TS's to transition, transition, transition - which all of us can attest exists from our community even if it isn't direct, it is always indirectly there.  Finally they cite they never knew there was another way to do it to live with GID without transition.  These people are generally very sad pandas.  In their shoes I probably would have remained transitioned, but I cannot be sure, but they exist, and they deal with challenges many of us couldn't dream of.

In fine I'd like to say that even if you have no doubts when you begin transition, don't believe for a moment you'll never change, don't cut corners on the SOC, don't think you are better or more "trans" than others.  These attitudes can blind you to the reality of the possibility that you *might change your mind as remote or impossible as that may be, and then it will be you I get to read about - you who wished things were different, that you had stopped earlier, that wished you had taken more precautions.

I hope you can see why I don't really like seeing gender-questioning individuals being pushed into transition's path.  The truth is MOST MOST MOST of the people I know who have regretted it and are post op... wait for it... transitioned YOUNG (before 30).  In the end, people change, and they change A LOT in their 20s.  Take that as a warning you whipper snappers.

Its funny because i had the total opposite experience to you.  I know at least 30 or 40 TS people around here.  Some are my close friends but we all meet and talk at a big party once a month.  EVERYONE is happy they transitioned.  Not a single person is sad or regrets it, Post op or Pre-op, MTF or FTM. 

Also to the people believe that transitioning will make your life roses, thats BS.  Transitioning does not make your life easier in anyway, in fact it makes it more difficult, however, it does fix whats wrong with you internally, so instead of dealing with issues inside and out, you have peace inside which helps you better deal with what happens outside.  If people believe that transitioning will fix their problems, nope, it doesn't fix the kind of person you are, you will have to do that by yourself. 

I am not even done transitioning and already i am feeling peace and my life totally turned around, while i was a failure before, now i am a success.  Things that were difficult are now easy.  Making friends for example, before it was hard, now its surprisingly easy, i dont even have to try...  among tons of other things that just didnt make sense before but now make perfect sense. 

Thats all i have to say...

This thread has caused me to reevaluate my feelings about how my life is post transition and whether I would entertain going back to living as a male. I agree with the majority of posters in that I too am pleased to live in my true gender. However, it does have it's major problems especially for a same sex couple. Had I left my wife and gotten into a relationship with a man, I think my feelings about life post transition would be very much different.

That is to say that all my reasons for considering detransition come from fears of being hurt or worse because of being in a same sex marriage. I won't say that I am a lesbian because I understand from another thread here at Susan's that one cannot be a lesbian until one has sex with another lesbian. So I really don't know what sexual orientation I am because of this but I know it is not straight. It doesn't matter much anyway because others see my marriage as same sex.

We have experienced quite our share of problems such as my wife not getting hired because she told the prospective employer that she was married to a transwoman. It was a slam dunk hire before that and they told her so but after that revelation, it was over. AND they had a nationwide search for six months prior looking for the precise skill set that my wife had.  The next two jobs she got, she lied about me saying I was still her husband and they dare never find out. That makes her employee benefits out of reach for me.

Then in getting a house to rent, we were humiliated three times because we were a same sex couple. Finally, we almost had to grovel to get a place for us and that in a liberal Calfornia town. It seems that landlords tend to be conservative and biased even though it is against the law to be so. Just try and prove they are. Can't be done.

It is also true that I lost the love of my life in her because she only sees me in a sister like relationship. I have been in deep grief over this for several years.

These things made me susceptible to going back but I forgot what it was like then.  My experience with GID was not constant but it increased more and more as time went on. It was like the woman inside me was determined to come out no matter what it cost. How could I expect to go back to that?

All that said, this morning one thing became clear. I looked at myself in the mirror and liked who I saw. When I was living as a male, I found that reflection revolting to the point that I refused to look at myself. Now, that is a torment that is far gone from me and I know that going back to seeing him again would be catastrophic.  The end result of all this mental exercise is that I will never de transition. It is better this way even if it means we must continually struggle against mean and hateful people who think they are doing good to harm LBGT people.


Maggie

Quote from: lilacwoman on August 30, 2010, 01:33:39 AM
the ones who detransition because of a need to be male - which includes holding onto the male job with all its money and prestige - these ones are not really TS but are somewhere else on the CD/TV spectrum.

I believe your assumption to be incorrect; that everyone who de-transitions wants to be male or that they aren't TS. Please don't define others unless you have walked a mile in your sisters' shoes.

Z

Quote from: MaggieB on August 30, 2010, 12:27:34 PM
This thread has caused me to reevaluate my feelings about how my life is post transition and whether I would entertain going back to living as a male. I agree with the majority of posters in that I too am pleased to live in my true gender. However, it does have it's major problems especially for a same sex couple. Had I left my wife and gotten into a relationship with a man, I think my feelings about life post transition would be very much different.

That is to say that all my reasons for considering detransition come from fears of being hurt or worse because of being in a same sex marriage. I won't say that I am a lesbian because I understand from another thread here at Susan's that one cannot be a lesbian until one has sex with another lesbian. So I really don't know what sexual orientation I am because of this but I know it is not straight. It doesn't matter much anyway because others see my marriage as same sex.

We have experienced quite our share of problems such as my wife not getting hired because she told the prospective employer that she was married to a transwoman. It was a slam dunk hire before that and they told her so but after that revelation, it was over. AND they had a nationwide search for six months prior looking for the precise skill set that my wife had.  The next two jobs she got, she lied about me saying I was still her husband and they dare never find out. That makes her employee benefits out of reach for me.

Then in getting a house to rent, we were humiliated three times because we were a same sex couple. Finally, we almost had to grovel to get a place for us and that in a liberal Calfornia town. It seems that landlords tend to be conservative and biased even though it is against the law to be so. Just try and prove they are. Can't be done.

It is also true that I lost the love of my life in her because she only sees me in a sister like relationship. I have been in deep grief over this for several years.

These things made me susceptible to going back but I forgot what it was like then.  My experience with GID was not constant but it increased more and more as time went on. It was like the woman inside me was determined to come out no matter what it cost. How could I expect to go back to that?

All that said, this morning one thing became clear. I looked at myself in the mirror and liked who I saw. When I was living as a male, I found that reflection revolting to the point that I refused to look at myself. Now, that is a torment that is far gone from me and I know that going back to seeing him again would be catastrophic.  The end result of all this mental exercise is that I will never de transition. It is better this way even if it means we must continually struggle against mean and hateful people who think they are doing good to harm LBGT people.


Maggie

If your wife was discriminated against via housing or job, that is against the law and you can sue them like you wouldn't believe. 

Quote from: Izumi on August 30, 2010, 01:13:26 PM
If your wife was discriminated against via housing or job, that is against the law and you can sue them like you wouldn't believe.

In practice is not practical because it is so hard to prove. We are not in a position to hire a lawyer to even consider such a thing. It takes money and time to sue and once done, do you really think that the next prospective employer or landlord will even accept an application once it is known that we sue? These people have ways of discrimination that are so shady that the laws are basically useless. The law is more of a social statement saying that we want it to be this way but we won't enforce it.

Maggie

Quote from: MaggieB on August 30, 2010, 01:25:51 PM
In practice is not practical because it is so hard to prove. We are not in a position to hire a lawyer to even consider such a thing. It takes money and time to sue and once done, do you really think that the next prospective employer or landlord will even accept an application once it is known that we sue? These people have ways of discrimination that are so shady that the laws are basically useless. The law is more of a social statement saying that we want it to be this way but we won't enforce it.

Maggie

You dont have to sue per say, you can let the proper authorities know and they will check into it and write a report.  If they are found that your allegations are true then you will have an open and shut case for a suit, then you wont need to look for a place to live because the law suit will probably give you enough to buy your only place cash. 

Also it doesnt hurt to talk to lawyer and see what they say, there are plenty that dont charge unless they win the case.

Seriously though if that happened to me and I knew it was because of that, i would sue their butts off. 

Quote from: Zythyra on August 30, 2010, 01:01:51 PM
I believe your assumption to be incorrect; that everyone who de-transitions wants to be male or that they aren't TS. Please don't define others unless you have walked a mile in your sisters' shoes.
Z

What I cannot grasp about detransitioners is how their family, work and social circles can accept them back and pretend they never transitioned and equally I cannot understand anyone wanting to detransition if they have come out to all these circles and lived opposite for a length of time...but if they detransition back to male then they must want to be so regardless of what excuses they put up.

MaggieB

My wife and I stopped having a sexual relationship after about 10 years of marriage. In my case, I just couldn't manage it and it had become increasingly frustration.

Never-the-less, I was really upset for a time. I had tried so very hard to preform this 'duty'. Looking back, I'm now surprised that I took it, at the time, as such a slight on my ego.

But we are approaching 30 years. I have to say, looking back, it was one of the better decisions she made.

Not having the pressure of having to preform. The inevitable depression. If I did it OK, I felt terribel after I'd finished. If I did it badly, I felt terrible. If I failed, as inincrsingly did, I felt terrible.

When she announced to me that we would no-longer be doing that, I wandered around the house, for several weeks, I think, acting like a stroopy teenager. I really can't understand why I didn't just stop and think about it. When I eventually did, I became much more relaxed.

I also have to say that I love my wife more than I love, even my own soul. There is nothing I wouldn't do for her.

Hope this helps.

Quote from: spacial on August 30, 2010, 06:26:44 PM
MaggieB

My wife and I stopped having a sexual relationship after about 10 years of marriage. In my case, I just couldn't manage it and it had become increasingly frustration.

Never-the-less, I was really upset for a time. I had tried so very hard to preform this 'duty'. Looking back, I'm now surprised that I took it, at the time, as such a slight on my ego.

But we are approaching 30 years. I have to say, looking back, it was one of the better decisions she made.

Not having the pressure of having to preform. The inevitable depression. If I did it OK, I felt terribel after I'd finished. If I did it badly, I felt terrible. If I failed, as inincrsingly did, I felt terrible.

When she announced to me that we would no-longer be doing that, I wandered around the house, for several weeks, I think, acting like a stroopy teenager. I really can't understand why I didn't just stop and think about it. When I eventually did, I became much more relaxed.

I also have to say that I love my wife more than I love, even my own soul. There is nothing I wouldn't do for her.

Hope this helps.

Thank you for the support. For us, we stopped about five years ago. I was the one who asked that we stop because I couldn't bear to act like a male when I wasn't. Plus when she found out that I was female it made her nauseous to think she was having sex with a female.

Now that I have this new body, there are some aspects of exploring it and what sex means now, are my needs. As for the detransition aspect of sex. I never ever considered sex in the male role again. OMG no.

Actually, I would like just to be able to cuddle or hold each other or even hold hands like we used to. A caress here and there, I am physical that way but she has shut down. I wanted those things even back when I couldn't be a male in bed. She didn't want that from me after that. So we rarely ever touch but once in a while we do hug like sisters do when there is a hurt.

I'd say we are still in love but it is not anything at all like the love I once new or need now.

Oh, just to be clear, I intend to be faithful to her for the rest of my life as she will to me.

Maggie

Quote from: Izumi on August 30, 2010, 01:35:05 PM
You dont have to sue per say, you can let the proper authorities know and they will check into it and write a report.  If they are found that your allegations are true then you will have an open and shut case for a suit, then you wont need to look for a place to live because the law suit will probably give you enough to buy your only place cash. 

Also it doesnt hurt to talk to lawyer and see what they say, there are plenty that dont charge unless they win the case.

Seriously though if that happened to me and I knew it was because of that, i would sue their butts off.

Particularly if you find a hungry, ambitious type.

I ask a local lawyer about what it would take to get a name change and he mentioned in the course of things that local redneck (not his word) judges might deny the petition which would require an appeal alleging discrimination and I mentioned how I probably wouldn't be able to afford anything like that and he got a big grin and said "let me worry about that"

He wanted to put a notch in his gun.

Quote
I wonder if perhaps the realisation that the actual transitioned self bears very little similarity to the fantasy transitioned self could be a factor in the decision to de-transition for some people?

I think that's a very good insight that maybe be quite true - but i suspect that if that was one's motivation they might be a bit ashamed to admit it.

One thing I sympathize with lilac on is the bit about the difficulty in having come out to everyone and then turning back - and the preception of instability or lack of seriousness that carries with it. Especially if one, for instance, lost a job or alienated a spouse or whatever in the process.

My wife swears if I went back it would make no difference to her what i've put her through but I insist that if - as she argues - this transition is optional and I don't HAVE to do it and yet i do this to her anyway, knowing full well what it puts her through....that's not the sort of person you want to be married to anyway.

Not that I mean to imply that without those factors I would de-trransition - but I can certainly understand how if i was otherwise tempted those factors would weigh heavily in the decision.

If I were to de-trans around here, I'd be even more a pariah than i could ever be as a transwoman.

Quote from: lilacwoman on August 30, 2010, 05:05:28 PM
What I cannot grasp about detransitioners is how their family, work and social circles can accept them back and pretend they never transitioned and equally I cannot understand anyone wanting to detransition if they have come out to all these circles and lived opposite for a length of time...but if they detransition back to male then they must want to be so regardless of what excuses they put up.

I transitioned in a small rural southern town, and lived totally openly for over a year. Everyone knew, and when I re-transitioned, they knew that too. There was no hiding anything, I lived in a glass house. My friends and family knew, and supported my decisions, whether or not they totally understood them. Many people understood that I simply did what I had to survive. And it was about survival. When I transitioned, I lost 2/3 of my work, and I was already living below the federal poverty level before transition. I had no insurance, and paid all transition costs out of pocket.

In fact, if anyone has ever said since, well it's good that you returned to male, I tell them that this simply isn't the case. I have always been who I was, and regardless of what I must do externally to survive, it doesn't change at all who I am inside. One can call me many things, but man isn't one of them.

Z

Quote from: lilacwoman on August 30, 2010, 05:05:28 PM
What I cannot grasp about detransitioners is how their family, work and social circles can accept them back and pretend they never transitioned and equally I cannot understand anyone wanting to detransition if they have come out to all these circles and lived opposite for a length of time...but if they detransition back to male then they must want to be so regardless of what excuses they put up.

My mother repeatedly told me I am a problem to her, because I'm transsexual. She has often said that she cannot bring herself to tell her friends, that she has a daughter without at least telling them that I'm transsexual and she feels ashamed of that too. She gave birth to a son, she said. She also doesn't want to get rid of baby pictures, where I'm naked and she has shown them to other people while I've been around even though that makes me very uncomfortable.
I was in fact dressed in girly pink, red and purple clothes and almost no blues for my first four years, and even though we have a lot of pictures of that she blankly denies that she did that. I think she feels somehow responsible for me turning into something she believes to be inferior and she therefore is in deep denial. Another thing is that she somehow cannot accept that she has any responsibility in her life's course, which is why she makes me into a problem. She even repeatedly excused her 25 years of unemployment on us kids although 92% of all single mums manages to stay at work. What she can't blame on us, she blames on my father, who left three weeks after my birth. She was the one baring him from any contact with us, however!

I've asked her to join me in family therapy, but as she sees it she has no problems whatsoever and she thinks I should just see a counsellor myself. She obviously do, however, since she recently started talking to one of my old acquaintences about how difficult it is for her to have a transgendered child and how strange she thinks that is. When she then proceeded to tell me that this person didn't like me either I decided I did not want to have contact with my mum for a long time. It's been two and a half month now. The rest of my family accepts me though.

IF I detransitioned she'd be all too happy to tell me that she always knew I was really just a man and that I was far out, when I thought I wasn't. She is so deep in denial, that she could easily just deny everything I went through just as she denied the existence of two full photo books we watched together twice!

Quote from: spacial on August 28, 2010, 11:47:30 AM
I went through dozens of reasons why my wish to be female was wrong and evil. I was seeking to emulate my mother, disgusting. I was lying to others, evil. I was being a wimp, coward and so on.

So, I went back.

All I really know for certain is that that was a mistake. I went back but the clock didn't. I don't know what else I could have done at that time. i don't know how it would have turned out even. All I can do is try to turn that into a lesson.

Thank you for sharing your story and nice to meet another nurse in here

Such considerations is part of my motivation to keep on transitioning. I realize that society and especially my mother has done everything they could to tell me that being the person I am is wrong. In the end I feel strongly that it is way more important to be true to yourself and be able to express who you are. One of my mottos are: It is most important to thrive as a person, being gendered comes second. Transition to me is about finding and becoming myself. Curiously it turns out that my person is interpreted as female and I have no trouble with that.
I realize that those feelings of ->-bleeped-<- being wrong or unacceptable is the basic problem, not the transgendering itself and I therefore work to better accept and embrace my diversity rather than tell myself that being who I am is being wrong.

Quote from: K8 on August 30, 2010, 08:56:16 AM
I've had a few times when I thought that life would have been simpler if I hadn't transitioned.  (Transitioning is complicated. )  I would be wistful for the good old days that are in my memory.  But then I would remember that they weren't all that good after all.

Kate, you're right about that and it's another reason, which keeps me going! Thinking back at my high school prom everyone thought I scored a very good partner, and I should have been happy. It was one of those moments to remember, people say. But the fact is even on that day of party I was far from happy and I almost thought about nothing, but why I wasn't the woman in the pretty dress. I felt so uncomfortable in that tuxedo and I had no real friends in high school. I believe I even asked if I could just try one of the girls dresses!
Another memory is from an English class, when we discussed a novell about an all-girls school and I raised my hand and said I'd desire to join one - I so strongly felt I'd belong there. I realize I was ready for transition at that time if I'd had just a little bit of support, but I didn't.

I have a video from my graduation party, which brings me to tears too. Another party, people being there to celebrate me, family, I should be happy, but when I watch it I see myself uncomfortably suited up and very alone, almost speaking with no one, while people around me were laughing and cheering. The person I've become is so much different. That makes me want to stay tracked.



Tippe

Quote from: lilacwoman on August 30, 2010, 05:05:28 PM
What I cannot grasp about detransitioners is how their family, work and social circles can accept them back and pretend they never transitioned and equally I cannot understand anyone wanting to detransition if they have come out to all these circles and lived opposite for a length of time...but if they detransition back to male then they must want to be so regardless of what excuses they put up.

They don't.

OK, in my case, there was a whole lot of friction between us, much of which had little to do with my effiminacy. My attempt to change was never mentioned either. But it was always there. A threat, hanging over me. I tried very hard to be the man they wanted me to be. But I ended up being their toy, dancing to whatever tune they played. Any false step and THAT could be brought up.

We can never turn back the clock, on any issue. Even those who decide to try to live with themselves as they are, as I have done, need to accept ourselves for what we are and other need to also. If they don't then it's time to leave.

Quote from: MaggieB on August 30, 2010, 06:51:16 PM

Actually, I would like just to be able to cuddle or hold each other or even hold hands like we used to. A caress here and there, I am physical that way but she has shut down. I wanted those things even back when I couldn't be a male in bed. She didn't want that from me after that. So we rarely ever touch but once in a while we do hug like sisters do when there is a hurt.

I'd say we are still in love but it is not anything at all like the love I once new or need now.

Oh, just to be clear, I intend to be faithful to her for the rest of my life as she will to me.

Maggie

Maggie. I understand what you mean here. What I'm saying is that this is almost exactly what happened with me.

It will take a long time for your wife to fully come round. I have to be honest with you, in my wife's case and I'm pretty sure in yours as well, what they fear is losing you to another man.

I know my wife loved me so much and still does. But from their perspective, they look at what they must accept and the fear of this process developing to the point of them being dumped, or worse, sidelined by a competitor is a lot to face up to.

I have never cheated on my wife. I made it absolutely clear that I never will.

It will take time, but eventually, she will learn to believe that and become more confident again.

Whenever I hear about someone detransitioning, it breaks my heart... simply because that person must be going through a spectacularly difficult time in their lives.

This is such a difficult path, and there is no one correct way to walk it. For decades now, I've grappled with my own gender incongruity, and after making up every excuse in the world to dismiss it, I am finally at peace with one simple set of ideas: I should have been a girl. I want to be a woman. I want to live the rest of my life and grow old as a woman.

Once someone has reached that point, and gone beyond it into actual transition, it must be horribly painful to go back, whatever the reason... People who detransition need support, not judgment (they may not want support from the trans community, but they need it anyway, at least in spirit).

Not to change the subject here  , but I have a weird question.Not that I would ever detransition, but has anyone who did after many years, wind up looking the same before the transition? I would guess no, but im real curious.

Angela,
The few people I've seen who detransitioned after fully transitioning did NOT look exactly the way they did before (hormones are powerful drugs).. but that's purely anecdotal on my part.

Thats what I figured, but wanted to know.

and I don't say that to be mean, it just has been my experience in terms of who I've seen after they detransitioned. I wish them nothing but contentment and happiness.. From the little I've read, it seems most who detransition Re-transition at some point. People who transition, decide it was a mistake, detransition, and stay in their "original" gender seem to be a rare breed.

Quote from: Samantha_Peterson on August 26, 2010, 10:19:59 AM
No. I could never go back to being male. It was torture to begin with. It would be even worse the second time.

agreeed!
And btw.... hormonally its a complete disaster...because you're body
is used to the estrogen....so you will go into male puberty once again when you transition back!!!!! This time with you having the knowledge of how your body can feel and how your life can be... I think it would be unbearable for me.

I don't know if, what i did counts. I didn't have any hormones or such.

I certainly didn't and don't look like I did before.

before I was full of hope an plans. All I needed was the opportunity.

After I was just a bad actor playing a part.