Kia Ora,

I can't remember if I've done a similar thread here or not...But anyway...........

Trans-wars are being fought on all fronts so to speak, transsexual against transsexual-  transgender against transgender – transsexual against transgender[and visa verse]

So here's the deal, if  those who have been there and done that [post opers] had more input in policing the SOC, say 75/25 input[75 % post-opers 25 % professional cis] do you think the system would run more smoothly, that is, less stressful for GID sufferers ?

Or would it be potential for disaster -the clashing of egos be too great ?

I should have added post and non opers who are legally qualified/professionals in GID like their cis counterparts...

Metta Zenda

My therapist was post-op and she really wasn't sympathetic at all to my issues. She totally discounted I had been living full time for over two years. Like that proves nothing about if I am trans enough to get on HRT. If anything I got this "I had to jump through a LOT of hoops so you will too".. I honestly think a sympathetic cis gendered person would be a LOT less likely to have this "You're not gonna get off that easy" attitude that I saw.

Also is someone who -needed- GRS to end their GID going to by sympathetic to people such as myself that had other problems other than what's in my pants at the root of it? Or lets say this post-op was suicidal over their GRS, if they saw people who weren't talking about killing themselves, would they see them as "not serious candidates or they would want to die"?

I think what you are suggesting here is a recipe for disaster.

Quote from: Stephe on September 18, 2011, 11:52:24 PM
My therapist was post-op and she really wasn't sympathetic at all to my issues. She totally discounted I had been living full time for over two years. Like that proves nothing about if I am trans enough to get on HRT. If anything I got this "I had to jump through a LOT of hoops so you will too".. I honestly think a sympathetic cis gendered person would be a LOT less likely to have this "You're not gonna get off that easy" attitude that I saw.

Also is someone who -needed- GRS to end their GID going to by sympathetic to people such as myself that had other problems other than what's in my pants at the root of it? Or lets say this post-op was suicidal over their GRS, if they saw people who weren't talking about killing themselves, would they see them as "not serious candidates or they would want to die"?

I think what you are suggesting here is a recipe for disaster.

Kia Ora Stephe,

I should point out I'm not suggesting having trans-people has gate keepers be a better option, I'm just putting forward something for others to ponder. because it would seem there are a number of members here who are not happy with the present system in place...

When I transitioned I was only seem by straight cis-people, psychiatrists [3] psychologist[1] counsellor[1], I had no problems whatsoever with the system, things ran quite smoothly, I couldn't have asked for a better service...However I've met other Kiwi trans-people who've had nothing but problems...

Metta Zenda

Honestly, I think there should just be more information and education on the positives of GRS, FFS, and hormone therapy; and how dangerous it can be to keep patients from accessing these things, especially in cases where the patient indeed looks too genetically masculine to realistically and happily pass as female. It's a fact that during RLE, the more masculine a Trans is, the the higher the chance he will be discriminated and taunted on his way to becoming a female, especially if he is young and surrounds himself with a young crowd, or works in an appearance-based career system.

RLE to some people is the cause of suicide; many Trans suicide cases have been during the hoop-jumping and RLE phases. It's an extremely sick practice in my opinion, especially for the people who cry and voice that they do not want to go that route, and it's why I have given up my Letter in protested against it. I obviously will end up finding a pill-mill, and I obviously will end up getting FFS, but I'd rather spend a year searching the globe for those rare, open-minded doctors than to waste money in a therapist's office when I have no mental disorders that transitioning wouldn't cure to begin with.

Quote from: RhinoP on September 19, 2011, 12:01:07 PM
Honestly, I think there should just be more information and education on the positives of GRS, FFS, and hormone therapy; and how dangerous it can be to keep patients from accessing these things, especially in cases where the patient indeed looks too genetically masculine to realistically and happily pass as female. It's a fact that during RLE, the more masculine a Trans is, the the higher the chance he will be discriminated and taunted on his way to becoming a female, especially if he is young and surrounds himself with a young crowd, or works in an appearance-based career system.

RLE to some people is the cause of suicide; many Trans suicide cases have been during the hoop-jumping and RLE phases. It's an extremely sick practice in my opinion, especially for the people who cry and voice that they do not want to go that route, and it's why I have given up my Letter in protested against it. I obviously will end up finding a pill-mill, and I obviously will end up getting FFS, but I'd rather spend a year searching the globe for those rare, open-minded doctors than to waste money in a therapist's office when I have no mental disorders that transitioning wouldn't cure to begin with.

Just FYI i looked pretty masculine and didn't think i had a chance in hell without surgery, turned into an average looking woman for my age, enough so that people cant tell at all.  So there is something to be said about the effects of HRT when combined with other factors outside of surgery such as diet, exercise, etc.. etc..

Quote from: RhinoP on September 19, 2011, 12:01:07 PM

RLE to some people is the cause of suicide; many Trans suicide cases have been during the hoop-jumping and RLE phases. It's an extremely sick practice in my opinion, especially for the people who cry and voice that they do not want to go that route, and it's why I have given up my Letter in protested against it. I obviously will end up finding a pill-mill, and I obviously will end up getting FFS, but I'd rather spend a year searching the globe for those rare, open-minded doctors than to waste money in a therapist's office when I have no mental disorders that transitioning wouldn't cure to begin with.

How is Real Life Experience sick?

And do you have these statistics to back up that girls living fulltime kill themselves because they are fulltime? Suicide among trans happen for many reasons.

There are many reasons why fulltime is so important.  Do you expect that people are going to let you take HRT, get SRS, etc etc as a female but still live as a male? Do you know how fundamentally confusing that is for people? To live as a male but take hrt and live outwardly as a man but is post op sexually as a woman??

Call me crazy as a hound, but as soon as I went fulltime, my mind was at ease. I was more suicidal pre RLE than I ever was RLE. RLE was a blessing for me

Quote from: Annah on September 19, 2011, 12:43:08 PM
Call me crazy as a hound, but as soon as I went fulltime, my mind was at ease. I was more suicidal pre RLE than I ever was RLE. RLE was a blessing for me

I never was suicidal. But I was a LOT more depressed pre RLE than I was after I started living full time, and I was pre HRT when I did it. Yes when I look back at the pictures of myself when I first started full time I shutter but that is part of it, discovering your own look etc. It also helps thicken your skin for later. If I can live though that, I can live through being clocked every once in a while now.  Honestly I can't imagine why someone would feel SRS would be some huge change in their ability to live full time or would make the transition into RLE any easier.

As far as FFS goes, as far as I know that is totally an informed consent thing. At least mine was. The HRT on the other hand did require a diagnosis of a metal disorder to start. I honestly think some RLE should be able to replace therapy and I think it's supposed to. Just not all docs follow that standard.

Quote from: Stephe on September 19, 2011, 03:59:11 PM
Honestly I can't imagine why someone would feel SRS would be some huge change in their ability to live full time or would make the transition into RLE any easier.

some of us are sexual beings...having the matching organ to go with appearance goes a long ways towards relationships of a sexual nature.  Not to mention there are any number of other facets in which it is really convenient to be properly equipped...also not to mention a hell of a lot more comfortable. 

To paraphrase, honestly I can't imagine why someone would NOT feel SRS would be some huge change in their ability to live full-time. 

Quote from: Ann Onymous on September 19, 2011, 04:57:17 PM
To paraphrase, honestly I can't imagine why someone would NOT feel SRS would be some huge change in their ability to live full-time.

So back to the context of my comment and this thread, are you saying you agree with the other poster that people should wait to completely finish the results of HRT and be given SRS before they start to live full time because being asked to complete RLT before SRS is cruel?

That's what this thread is about, the SOC. My comment was in response to "I was more suicidal pre RLE than I ever was RLE." which was discussing if RLE should or should not be required for SRS. Not whether or not some people might find that having SRS would improve their lives. Obviously for some people it's a HUGE change and improvement.

Hi Stephe

Quote from: Stephe on September 19, 2011, 03:59:11 PMHonestly I can't imagine why someone would feel SRS would be some huge change in their ability to live full time or would make the transition into RLE any easier.

One year after having my epiphany I got my hormones, I changed my name and basically the next day I was working full time.  So for me there was no transition, there was no RLE.  I would have had surgery the same day if it was possible.  No, I never had or suffered from GID (the term or terms where not around when I had surgery and the definitions are a contradiction in terms).  No, I never was suicidal.  No, I never had any gender problems.  So why in hell did I have surgery?  So that I could function as a female no less and no more and it is just that simple.

Ann also says it quite eloquently:

Quote from: Ann Onymous on September 19, 2011, 04:57:17 PM
some of us are sexual beings...having the matching organ to go with appearance goes a long ways towards relationships of a sexual nature.  Not to mention there are any number of other facets in which it is really convenient to be properly equipped...also not to mention a hell of a lot more comfortable.

To paraphrase, honestly I can't imagine why someone would NOT feel SRS would be some huge change in their ability to live full-time.

I was not sexually active until after I was 32 years and that was after I had my surgery.   Also I'm a competitive swimmer and swimming coach and I'm constantly in and out of change rooms, so being able to dress and undress without worrying about the consequences, however that did not really stop me before surgery.  This is what is meant by being able to function as a female.

One final thing, having surgery finally gave me peace of mind and contentment in my life.

Warm regards
Sarah B

To answer the question, "Would the SOC be any better if run by post-op trans-people ?" NO, because they are not medically qualified (unless of course they are).  Yes, the current SOC or WPATH guidelines are not perfect and not all doctors are up to speed with treating our condition.

However that is not to say that post ops, non ops or even pre ops should not be able to provide guidance in the formation of the standards.  However, unless one has the necessarily paper work (qualifications), one cannot vote, especially if one wants to be a member of WPATH.  As for the APA and what influence that can be brought to bear in regards to the DSM, then that is a completely different ball game.

Warm regards
Sarah B

It surprises the hell out of me that the SOC is still in use.  Informed consent is a much more patient-friendly model.  I passed on surgeons who demanded that in addition to forking over my cash, I jump through hoops, too.

I think that the original question has merit but it also has some complications.
Mainly already pointed out by the poster who had a trans therapist requiring her to jump through the same hoops she did...

As for the RLE being cruel thing...

I thought the SOC, RLE and therapy were all bad ideas that I should not have to put up with.
I was wrong.
RLE was the best choice I could have made. I got a therapist and she is great. After awhile she made me stop coming to see her as she said she only sees people who are unwell, so much for the wallet raping therapist meme... As for the SOC, it is there for the costors protection more than yours. So that kinda sucks, but the entire idea is to go safe and get the end,

My cis, straight, femme, heteronormative therapist is one of the most kind and sympathetic people I've ever met, and she understands me a hell of a lot better than most other trans folks do. She's arranged for me to have SRS after only 8 months of being full time cause she knows how important it is to me, and how certain I am. She's never questioned my identity, orientation or style of expression. In fact she's one of the only people in my life who hasn't expected or pushed me to be more feminine. And as weird as it is to have a straight lady old enough to be my mother explain that post-op, having a partner screw me with a strap-on can't replace dilation, I appreciate her efforts to be inclusive. I can't imagine anyone I'd rather have speak for me in regards to the SoC.

All of us have different experiences, and expecting any random post-op trans woman to somehow magically relate to every other trans person any better than a non-trans person is unrealistic.

and my cis, straight, femme, heteronormative therapist gave me my hormone letter after my first visit.  I had very few token hoops to jump through.  But like others have said, my god, RLE was such a blessed relief to me that I immediately knew I would never, ever go back.  In the big scheme of things, it wasn't a hardship, rather I thrived on it and knew it was what I had needed my whole life.

Speaking as a post-operative woman, I know I personally would be very strict.  That's because as much as I know without a doubt and still feel that surgery was the absolute right choice for me, I also see it as a drastic, desperate measure to be cured.  I mean let's face it; once ol' Humpty Dumpty's been sliced and diced, turned inside out and shoved back up a hole in your crotch and your testicles incinerated, all the king's horses and all the kings men... well, you get the idea.

My surgeon is a post-operative woman herself.  She was very adamant about both the RLE requirement and the 2 therapist's letters which had to be by the SoC book.  Personally to me it was a very minor thing to fulfill the requirements; that time was fleeting and passed before I knew it, and now I will never again have to live up to anyone else's standards just to be myself.  But I'm a firm believer in the Standards.

As for these threads here where people are saying they're not sure about it, I would say... it hurts like bloody hell.    And then there's the risk you may end up with no feeling at all, and never have another orgasm the rest of your life.  Of course if you have the surgery and then later decide it wasn't for you, well, it's too late then.  It is permanently permanent and irreversible.  There is no going back, which to me is one of the most wonderful things about it and one of its most attractive features.  But if that thought scares you, then you aren't ready.

Never mind that it is a cure that has worked for thousands.  Never mind that to most, the results of female SRS are indistinguishable from original equipment.  Never mind that the peace and rightness of being I experience now is like something I never could have even dreamed possible before surgery.  Never mind all that, because none of that stuff matters at all if it is not the one and only thing in your life personally that is going to cure your GID and let you get on with your life.

Surgery is not for everyone.  It is a last resort when all else fails, and anyone who goes under the knife had better be very sure of themselves, be very sure of the risks and possible rewards, and have realistic expectations of the results.  My own expectations were far exceeded, but by its nature it is an experience that is non-transferable to anyone who hasn't been there.  It's a risk.  If you're doing it for anything less than absolute necessity, then again, you aren't ready.

I admit my motives are selfish.  Every person who wrongly chooses SRS and later regrets it is just another Charles Kane, someone whose experience will be flaunted back to us as "proof" that everything we say about the transsexual condition is a lie.

so anyway yeah, it's probably a good idea I'm not in charge of these decisions lol

Quote from: Stephe on September 19, 2011, 07:40:44 PM
So back to the context of my comment and this thread, are you saying you agree with the other poster that people should wait to completely finish the results of HRT and be given SRS before they start to live full time because being asked to complete RLT before SRS is cruel?

That's what this thread is about, the SOC. My comment was in response to "I was more suicidal pre RLE than I ever was RLE." which was discussing if RLE should or should not be required for SRS. Not whether or not some people might find that having SRS would improve their lives. Obviously for some people it's a HUGE change and improvement.

"results" from HRT are never 'finished.' 

As to RLE/FT, some people are clearly candidates for SRS from day one.  And IMO, integrating into society necessarily incorporates relationships.  The CURE for transsexualism IS the surgery.  Everything else is ancillary.  And in that respect, I simply cannot fathom WHY someone would NOT want the cure for the medical condition...to live in an incomplete state is tantamount to not living at all. 

While I have no qualm with the premise that the SoC is a flawed instrument that didn't work 25 years ago and is just as flawed now, it is not something that should be 'run' by non-professionals.  I would certainly opine, however, that those who have been through SRS are the most qualified of the population contemplated by the SoC to point out the various flaws in the document since we have been through the experience and reached our point of cure... 

Quote from: AnnI simply cannot fathom WHY someone would NOT want the cure for the medical condition...to live in an incomplete state is tantamount to not living at all.

This statement completely invalidates the non-ops lives and the lives of people like my spouse who strive to be in the middle. Where you or I would feel tortured, some people like my hunny are most comfortable.

If someone only needs partial transition or seeks to put themselves in the middle, who are we to gainsay them?

Quote from: Ann Onymous on September 20, 2011, 09:27:02 AM
The CURE for transsexualism IS the surgery.  Everything else is ancillary.  And in that respect, I simply cannot fathom WHY someone would NOT want the cure for the medical condition...to live in an incomplete state is tantamount to not living at all.

This comes across rather as a blanket condemnation, but perhaps wasn't intended to be so. I think it's very simple: if you don't know why someone is not opting for SRS in response to transsexualism (assuming that term means the same to them as it does to you) then you just need to ask them. You don't need to work it out on your own, you just need to ask.

You know were all supposed to be on the same side here, when we fight over differing opinions we give ammunition to those who want to dismiss us just what they need.

We have open dialoge here and we are not going to agree all the time.  We have to accept that and get over it.

Why not just say, "I disagree with your thoughts/opinion, here is why and what my thoughts on the subject are."

Quote from: Padma on September 20, 2011, 10:37:20 AM
This comes across rather as a blanket condemnation, but perhaps wasn't intended to be so. I think it's very simple: if you don't know why someone is not opting for SRS in response to transsexualism (assuming that term means the same to them as it does to you) then you just need to ask them. You don't need to work it out on your own, you just need to ask.

It makes me wonder if anyone bothered to read the earlier exchange in THIS VERY THREAD!  From the last few posts, it would seem not.  Instead, it comes across as yet another example of attacking the messenger.  And yet another example of why the former transsexuals don't feel welcome here...