Quote from: Annah on December 11, 2011, 12:52:44 PM
I don't see it that way at all. I see Athiest centered and Religious Centered and politically centered excuses to wage war just as equally. They go hand in hand like peanut butter and jelly.

I have seen good come from the Abrahamic religions. I have seen evil come from the Abrahamic religions.
I have seen good come from atheism. I have seen evil come from atheism.
I have seen good come from the earth based religions. I have seen evil come from the earth based religions.
I have seen good come from politics (I know...hard to swallow). I have seen evil come from politics.

I've just seen, heard, read, and study too much to dismiss otherwise. If you want to use the law of numbers, it works it's self out to almost a balance to all three spheres when it comes to deaths and lives prospered.

Kia Ora Annah,

Then I'm afraid we don't see eye to eye and will have to agree to disagree...

However there's one thing I'm sure we agree on... There are unscrupulous people in all walks of life all religions/belief systems who will manipulate, kill. steal, cheat, and lie, to get others to serve their purpose...Or like Amazon would say "There are some sick puppies out there!"..
.
Metta Zenda

Quote from: Zenda on December 11, 2011, 12:54:28 PM
Kia Ora Annah,

Were they killed just for refusing to stop worshiping their god ? Or their ideology when it came greed and corruption regarding the state of affairs ie, economy, equality, etc ? However in saying this, we all know that  'power' eventually will corrupt no matter what side of the fence one sits... 

Metta Zenda

They were killed because they would not stop worshiping the God they believed in and in the Governments' charters, to worship a God over their leader was a treasonous offense. If they stopped the worshiping they would have been spared. If they continued, they were put to death.

That appears to specific to me.

If one were to argue the case that there were other things in play then one has to portray that to religious warfare. There can be an excuse easily applied to anything....such as The Great Crusades' excuse of wanting to reopen their pilgrimage back to the Holy Lands so they sent "Pilgrims to Jerusalem with a sword." It;'s an excuse in my eyes because they killed along the way; which directly went against Christ's teachings of "love your neighbor as yourself."

When someone overplays goodness in what they believe in but then blames another group of people for atrocities and warfare, then you are no different than the people you blame.

This isn't pointed at anyone but just a general belief I have.

True acceptance is when you can see the goodness and faults, not only in the religions and beliefs you do not follow, but in yours as well.

Quote from: Annah on December 11, 2011, 01:02:19 PM
They were killed because they would not stop worshiping the God they believed in and in the Governments' charters, to worship a God over their leader was a treasonous offense. If they stopped the worshiping they would have been spared. If they continued, they were put to death.

That appears to specific to me.

If one were to argue the case that there were other things in play then one has to portray that to religious warfare. There can be an excuse easily applied to anything....such as The Great Crusades' excuse of wanting to reopen their pilgrimage back to the Holy Lands so they sent "Pilgrims to Jerusalem with a sword." It;'s an excuse in my eyes because they killed along the way; which directly went against Christ's teachings of "love your neighbor as yourself."

Kia Ora Annah,

What appears as the truth to you [your beliefs and your faith in a god] is not true for me[my understanding of life]...You have your reasons to believe, I have no reason to believe the same...

However as I mentioned before... There's one thing I'm sure we agree upon...And that is  there are unscrupulous people in all walks of life, all religions/belief systems who will use whatever means possible to manipulate, kill. steal, cheat, and lie, to get others to serve their purpose...Or like Amazon would say "There are some sick puppies out there!"
.

"The road to hell is often paved with good intent !"

Metta Zenda

Quote from: Zenda on December 11, 2011, 12:33:04 PM
Kia Ora Spacial [and Annah],

What I meant was, an atheist is not 'driven by' atheism to commit atrocities,[they just don't have a belief in a god] they [like theists and agnostics] are driven by ignorance in the form of misguided belief, fear, greed, etc...

Metta Zenda    

I'm sorry, but you are incorrect.

There are many claiming to be driven by many things. But all are driven and will use whatever means they can take.

There are, for example, laws preventing the use of chemical weapons, torture, especially of prisoners in war time, even some types of weaposn. Yet when war breaks out, these things are rolled out and used. Such prohibitions are irrelevant.

Rape, senseless destruction of civilian property, slavery, looting. All banned, yet all done with impunity. How many veteranes of any war do you know don't have war trophies?

The use of religion, politics, threats, lies. Hell, when the British troops were being trained to go kill Germans in WW1 they were told that the Germans were eating babies. When the war was over, the Germans had been told the same thing about the British. Does anyone remember the crying (apparently Kuwaitie) girl testifying to Congress that drug crazed Iraqi troops were ripping babies from their incubators and throwing them onto the floor?

Just because someone claims to be doing something on behalf of their religion doesn't men it's actually true. The evidence demonstrates that the sort of people to go to war have a fluid grasp of truth.

Quote from: spacial on December 11, 2011, 01:30:56 PM
I'm sorry, but you are incorrect.

There are many claiming to be driven by many things. But all are driven and will use whatever means they can take.

There are, for example, laws preventing the use of chemical weapons, torture, especially of prisoners in war time, even some types of weaposn. Yet when war breaks out, these things are rolled out and used. Such prohibitions are irrelevant.

Rape, senseless destruction of civilian property, slavery, looting. All banned, yet all done with impunity. How many veteranes of any war do you know don't have war trophies?

The use of religion, politics, threats, lies. Hell, when the British troops were being trained to go kill Germans in WW1 they were told that the Germans were eating babies. When the war was over, the Germans had been told the same thing about the British. Does anyone remember the crying (apparently Kuwaitie) girl testifying to Congress that drug crazed Iraqi troops were ripping babies from their incubators and throwing them onto the floor?

Just because someone claims to be doing something on behalf of their religion doesn't men it's actually true. The evidence demonstrates that the sort of people to go to war have a fluid grasp of truth.

Kia Ora Spacial,

In Buddhism 'ignorance' covers a wide scope of things [not only these I mentioned]... It includes any 'unskillful' acts that might start with good intent, but ends with immoral outcomes, both theists and atheists and long with agnostics are guilty of this...

I guess because this is the spiritual section I can safely quote Buddhism, for example the Eight fold path...The first three, of the eight involve developing wisdom "right understanding[or right view]", "right thought", "right speech", and as one delves deeper into their contents developing a deeper insight, this in turn gradually dispels 'ignorance' in all its forms...

So my use of the term ignorance Spacial goes deeper than ones general understanding...Beyond ones 'ignorance' of the term ignorance, so to speak...

Metta Zenda  

Quote from: spacial on December 11, 2011, 01:30:56 PM
There are, for example, laws preventing the use of chemical weapons, torture, especially of prisoners in war time, even some types of weapons. Yet when war breaks out, these things are rolled out and used. Such prohibitions are irrelevant.

Actually chemical weapons have not been used since WWI. Biological weapons were used at very limited scale WWII (Japan drop biological weapons over China in the 1930. Allegedly the Soviets used the Tularemia weapon against the Germans in WWII), but have not been used since. Flamethrowers have not been used since Vietnam.

Ummmm, Don Rumsfeld and the Reagan Administration sold chemical weapons to Iraq to use on Iran.  So, not a match.

Google it, you'll get more than 11 million hits.

And use of things like Agent Orange et. all. is also considered chemical warfare.

Quote from: Jen61 on December 11, 2011, 02:05:20 PM
Actually chemical weapons have not been used since WWI. Biological weapons were used at very limited scale WWII (Japan drop biological weapons over China in the 1930. Allegedly the Soviets used the Tularemia weapon against the Germans in WWII), but have not been used since. Flamethrowers have not been used since Vietnam.

Kia Ora Jen,

If I remember rightly I read somewhere that the Israeli military have used/tested[or were accused of using] a new  'chemicals'[in the form of a gas] they had developed on unsuspecting Palestinians...Perhaps you know more about this allegation...

Metta Zenda    

Quote from: Jen61 on December 11, 2011, 08:29:01 AM
there is an area of our brain that seems to function as a relay for communicating with G-d. Would it be correct to say that you are listening to messages from the Lord G-d ?

I would say so

but that was from above, speaking to you, thru somebody's surrendered vehicle not mine since it came from you even before you knew me

Quote from: Annah on December 11, 2011, 12:52:44 PM
Wars will continue until man receives the enlightenment they need to stop

Don't forget the profit motive.  Imagine what kind of war weapons would be developed if the profit was taken out.

"From this point forward, all developers and manufacturers of war-based products will be no longer be permitted to add profit to the sale of their products to the armed forces.  After all, it is un-American to profit from the protection of our freedom."

Right.

Quote from: Julie Marie on December 11, 2011, 12:22:42 PM
There's also the knowledge factor, where Atheists and Agnostics score the highest.

U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey

Kia Ora Julie,

In some strange, paradoxical way, some atheists/non theists tend to take religion more seriously than the practitioners ! They do a lot more research, for example by 'actually' studying the bible with an open mind...

Tis also said the bible is one of the most powerful means at the atheist's disposal for 'converting' people to atheism...And if an atheist's understanding/commitment  begins to weaken they just need to pick up 'their'  copy * of any god-centric holy book* and read a few verses, and their 'faith' in atheism is restored  I might say this in jest, but it holds true for many....   

Metta Zenda

Quote from: Annah on December 11, 2011, 12:52:44 PM
I don't see it that way at all. I see Athiest centered and Religious Centered and politically centered excuses to wage war just as equally. They go hand in hand like peanut butter and jelly.

Wars will continue until man receives the enlightenment they need to stop and it will not come from separating each other religions out or to get rid of them. Once the dust of an extinct religious belief settles, wars and atrocities will still continue.

Kia Ora Annah,

And in what form will this 'enlightenment' arrive ? Enlighten me !

Metta Zenda

Quote from: tekla on December 11, 2011, 02:16:09 PM
Ummmm, Don Rumsfeld and the Reagan Administration sold chemical weapons to Iraq to use on Iran.  So, not a match.

Google it, you'll get more than 11 million hits.

And use of things like Agent Orange et. all. is also considered chemical warfare.

You are slipping Tekla, usually your post are right on the money but lately you are slipping.  I am afraid the facts make your post above inaccurate at best.


USA or Germany never sold any chemical weapons to Iraq or anybody else. They sold them technology to built a pesticide plant. True this is a dual use technology.

Agent orange, a defoliant, is not considered a chemical weapon. And even if it was, it use by US in Vietnam (1961-1971) was before the USA become a party to the Chemical Weapons Convention or the Geneva Convention on Chemical Weapons

See below:

Chemical Weapons Convention: Convention on the Prohibition of the Development, Production, Stockpiling and Use of Chemical Weapons and on their Destruction
Drafted September 3, 1992. Signed January 13, 1993. Effective April 29, 1997. Ratification by 65 states. Signatories: 165. Parties:188 (as of December 2010)

The Protocol for the Prohibition of the Use in War of Asphyxiating, Poisonous or other Gases, and of Bacteriological Methods of Warfare, usually called the Geneva Protocol. The USA become a party to this convention on 10 April 1975

Quote from: Zenda on December 11, 2011, 01:28:22 PM
Kia Ora Annah,

What appears as the truth to you [your beliefs and your faith in a god] is not true for me[my understanding of life]...You have your reasons to believe, I have no reason to believe the same...

I am not debating religious truth because I do not believe in a religious absolute truth. I find all religions (and lack of religion) to be equally embracing.

My point of contention is the debates that wars are done by all religious people regardless of what religion they are and kindness and charity has been done by those same religions. The same goes for atheism. I am also sharing historical events that proves that religion and atheism of all shapes and sizes has done harm and good. I am not debating a belief in a god. If someone worships the flying spaghetti monster, then so be it.

Quote However as I mentioned before... There's one thing I'm sure we agree upon...And that is  there are unscrupulous people in all walks of life, all religions/belief systems who will use whatever means possible to manipulate, kill. steal, cheat, and lie, to get others to serve their purpose...Or like Amazon would say "There are some sick puppies out there!"
.

I agree

Quote from: Zenda on December 11, 2011, 03:33:31 PM
Kia Ora Annah,

And in what form will this 'enlightenment' arrive ? Enlighten me !

Metta Zenda

I have absolutely no idea and I don't think humankind will know for thousand of years in future if we haven't blown the planet apart by then

Quote from: Annah on December 11, 2011, 09:35:46 PM
I have absolutely no idea and I don't think humankind will know for thousand of years in future if we haven't blown the planet apart by then

Kia Ora Annah,

A Buddhist perspective on 'Enlightenment'...Enlightenment is when there is no longer a concept of 'two'.. "The 'self' does not exist, and to realise this is to achieve enlightenment... But if there is no 'self', who or what is it that becomes enlightened ?   

You have a nice day Annah 

Metta Zenda

There is only one truth faith.

When I find it, I'll let you know. Right now, the Farce is in the front running,.

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on December 12, 2011, 12:00:13 AM
There is only one truth faith.

Yeah, it's called Discordianism.  Look it up.

I believe Bob and Robert Anton Wilson are their gods.  Except for, you know, when they're not.

Quote from: VeryGnawty on December 12, 2011, 08:37:23 AM
Yeah, it's called Discordianism.  Look it up.

I believe Bob and Robert Anton Wilson are their gods.  Except for, you know, when they're not.

Hail Eris!  I think it's safe to say that the only things killed by Discordianism are brain cells, by the millions!  Also, I don't think anyone's been killed by Jains except themselves...