Mentally female? ... Mentally the female 'I' happen to be. Neither butch nor über-femme, neither MtF (God help me!), thank you, but no thank you.

It's simply that we are really who we are - whatever THAT is.

Would I want to be a man? No thank you, too.

Does THAT make me mentally female? Um, I guess so - otherwise I would not have gone and get SRS.

In this context one of those 'clever folks' had it that for me to transition was the 'ultimate' challenge Hear, hear!

Comment by my ex's 2nd husband: "Challenges stop for me when it means to have my dick cut off..."
So ... I guess in his case he be considered mentally male then, eh?

Mentally Axélle

While I want others to see me as female, I would probably usually fall into the category of being mentally a "thing" as that is how I mostly see myself.  Its why I don't date nor do I run around proclaiming that I am a woman to people. I don't get into the whole gender role stuff as I just do what I want or need to do and that could easily involve things of either typical stereotype.

Quote from: Jaime on July 06, 2012, 10:47:41 AM
While I want others to see me as female, I would probably usually fall into the category of being mentally a "thing" as that is how I mostly see myself.  Its why I don't date nor do I run around proclaiming that I am a woman to people. I don't get into the whole gender role stuff as I just do what I want or need to do and that could easily involve things of either typical stereotype.

Good standpoint, good answer, I can relate - a lot.

Axélle

People make up stories about who and how they are, weaving memories and information together, they craft narratives of their lives and identity to understand themselves and to explain themselves to others. They aren't really right or wrong, they just are.

By the time someone decides to transition, I'm not sure what the story is that got them there really matters, just that the story exists.

Quote from: Sarah7 on July 06, 2012, 11:45:55 AM
People make up stories about who and how they are, weaving memories and information together, they craft narratives of their lives and identity to understand themselves and to explain themselves to others. They aren't really right or wrong, they just are.

By the time someone decides to transition, I'm not sure what the story is that got them there really matters, just that the story exists.

I completely agree. I think that, in a way, we have great control over shaping and changing our own realities and identities to fill deeper desires and..."wants".

Regardless of that, I feel we get too hung up on making sure that only true transsexuals transition.

Just one problem with that, there is no marker for a  "true" (so to speak) transsexual. There is a general outline, and if you feel that you fit that, then have at it. I really don't understand some posters preoccupations in making transsexuals be some sort of "elite" group, where only a few qualify.

What are you worried about? That a few bad apples will ruin everyone else's perception of you? Well, guess what, if you are so different from those "bad apples" (as you claim you are) than when others meet you and possibly become aware of what you are, they will be even more flabbergasted.

Hey, they might even bow to your awesomeness  .

Quote from: Edge on July 06, 2012, 06:09:43 AM
The one I grew up in. I'm really tired of people acting like it doesn't exist or that it's so surprising. I wouldn't say it's particularly desirable (some aspects are, some not), but I used to think it was the same in all the western countries and I still find it shocking that it's not. (Financially, not many people can afford to stay home though.)
Not to mention that what you described is very prevalent in many mythologies although that's more in individuals and archetypes than the culture. Also many war goddesses were less providers and more homicidal maniacs (ex: Sekhmet). That and craftsmen include blacksmiths.

Really? Well please do tell me more about your culture 

Quote from: mementomori on July 06, 2012, 03:09:42 AM
so what youe saying is you could have gender identity disorder while feeling completely ok with your physical body , wouldnt that make it more a social thing though than a physical thing ?

i mean what about a transwomen who wants to shave her head and wear bike boots/ spikes and lots of leather . but has always felt gender dysphoria about having a male body and felt it was supposed to be female so has surgically corrected herself

generally i thought the idea was being born the wrong sex for the mental wiring of your body , not a socially percieved idea of gender normal behaviour and dress

for example my aunt is obssesed with v8 cars she has won body building competitions and never wears makeup and lives in shorts/ pants and singlets

she is a cisgendered women doesnt feel as though she is a man in a womans body becuase she doesnt fit the social construct of a what a woman is supposed to be

Well no, in that case you would not feel okay with your body, at the very least because your body/appearance is what causes the wrong gender role to be imposed onto you.

A mis-assignment of a socially perceived idea of gender is exactly what GID was described in order to address in the first place and that is still a requirement in the diagnostic criteria for it. That is the essence of GID. If your aunt does not experience any distress from living as a female then of course she doesn't have a disorder. People respond differently to being outside the norm and it also varies by how much they are prevented from expressing themselves as a result.

Like, if your aunt were banned from her bodybuilding championships simply because she was a woman, for example, then she might experience some GID-like distress from that. Especially if she were also laughed out of car dealerships and forced by her family to wear skirts and frilly tops. 

Quote from: Adam1 on July 06, 2012, 04:13:39 AM
Would it be social? But I have a hard time believing that there is something in the brain that is just hard wired to be called "she". We have an amazing ability to learn language when born, but we don't come with a dictionary in English inside telling us what she and her and girl things even mean.

Well yes, I think traditionally it is primarily social and other things follow, like the physical.

It's not really about being hard wired to be called "she," but about natural preferences and how they end up working in society relative to other people's natural preferences. The "she" comes from a realization of mental similarity to women instead of men. 

For example, if person A likes scrapbooking, creative writing, home decorating, soap operas and ballet, then person A is naturally going to find themselves surrounded primarily by women and the people that they have most in common with are going to be women. Don't you think person A would feel weird if person A happened to be a man? Certainly they would notice that they were the odd one out in all or most of their social circles. And it would be made worse if the people in their life prevented them from participating in their interests or pushed them into other things they weren't interested in because they are a man. They might begin to think, "if I had been born as a woman I could be myself and do all the things I like to do and people wouldn't treat me poorly for it," and by extension, "I should have been born as a woman.' Then comes identifying as a woman and wanting to be called she.

Anyway, that kind of situation is what GID describes and that is what pretty much all of its public and societal legitimacy as a major health condition is resting on so 

Quote from: pretty on July 06, 2012, 12:30:51 PM

Anyway, that kind of situation is what GID describes and that is what pretty much all of its public and societal legitimacy as a major health condition is resting on so 

If that's all it's resting on, then "oh my!".

In that case, I am very skeptical of GID as a legitimate disorder and am surprised it's proponents were not laughed out of the DSM meeting all those decades ago.

Quote from: Adam1 on July 06, 2012, 12:39:23 PM
If that's all it's resting on, then "oh my!".

In that case, I am very skeptical of GID as a legitimate disorder and am surprised it's proponents were not laughed out of the DSM meeting all those decades ago.

They probably weren't laughed out of such meetings because they were able to show that there was a percentage of the population that was experiencing severe mental distress and depression as a result of a gender identity that did not match their sex.

Quote from: pretty on July 06, 2012, 12:30:51 PM
Anyway, that kind of situation is what GID describes and that is what pretty much all of its public and societal legitimacy as a major health condition is resting on so 

I thought it was mostly resting on this these days: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan.html

And the GID criteria have been altered quite a bit for the new DSM V, in which it's relabeled Gender Dysphoria. You might be surprised - a lot of the criteria refer to physicality.

Quote from: Adam1 on July 06, 2012, 12:02:29 PM
Hey, they might even bow to your awesomeness  .

Everyone should totally bow to my awesomeness.

I have concluded that even in a community as diverse and open as Toronto that at least a small part of my transition will be defined by my desire to interact smoothly with the larger 'traditional' slice of the societal pie.  What I am right now has proven to have major limits within that structure.  With humans' well-developed ability to read much about others in a glance it can be important to give off the right queues.  Overall I've been left feeling somewhat invisible or alien to others as an instinctive response through little fault of my own.  If you just saw me in a picture you'd probably think I was a really normal guy, but if you were to 'sense' me in person on the street or in a social environment I believe you would understand.  There most certainly are internal genetic structures which define the average male versus female which can be 'sensed' even though many people in the struggle for social equality would be offended that males and females cannot be 100% interchangeable 100% of the time.

I'd say I'm not a really girly female in my mind and in my style, much like some of the other posters in this thread.  There are also plenty of GGs this way or moreso.  I don't really aim to wear dresses because I don't think it suits my character, just as many women feel.  I've always been attracted to tomboys and punk girls, especially for the way that to me they fit my particular definition of feminine and look so amazing without hyper-feminine clothing or excessive makeup or assessorizing to the max.  I'm wondering now if all along I've also been really jealous of their look because it's similar to what I want to achieve myself.  Personally I don't care to be super-feminine by the current definition - I simply don't want to end up as just a tall, skinny guy with boobs.  I just want to give off the right signals to others when they read me in a glance even if I remain somewhat androgynous in appearance.  I don't see it as 'striking a balance' - I see it as just being natural and true to myself.

All of this goes back to the idea of a female mind.  Beyond the clothes there is a feeling that is really hard to define that comes from dressing the part.  It's a sense of right and familiarity, like how a baby forms an instinctive attachment with and comfort from certain items like a favorite blanket.  When I blend out my male parts and accentuate my female parts I achieve some of this instinctive comfort.  It fires the right neurons in the brain according to a structure that is present.  When I put on a bra and simulate the weight, motion and form of breasts they instinctively feel like a part of me and give me that pleasant response in the mind like a favorite warm blanket.

Overall I don't see how there cannot be certain parts of the brain which are uniquely female from the beginning, given the various sensations and thought patterns I've experienced throughout my life which don't fit the 'male norm'.  Frankly I thought medical science had already proven some of this anyway.  Even if some of this is regulated by hormones there has to be a physical structure driving this in each gender, and we already know that much of this is controlled or 'encouraged' by specific parts of the brain that statistically differ between genders.  Otherwise someone could say one day "I'm now a girl!" and their hormone levels would just magically shift accordingly.  If only!

Quote from: Sarah7 on July 06, 2012, 12:49:44 PM
I thought it was mostly resting on this these days: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan.html

And the GID criteria has been altered quite a bit for the new DSM V, in which it's relabeled Gender Dysphoria. You might be surprised - a lot of the criteria refer to physicality.

Well no, you're right, it is resting more explicitly on the brain science. That is its more objective academic legitimacy. By public, I meant that in the public consciousness that translates to a sense of how having a female brain affects the affinities and behavior of a trans person to be more similar to their expressed gender, since yeah, our brain is what is responsible for what kind of person we are.

Quote from: pretty on July 06, 2012, 12:30:51 PM
Really? Well please do tell me more about your culture 

Girls are expected to be tomboys. Femininity is sneered on and "girly" is an insult (a big step back for feminism in my opinion). They are very competitive especially when it comes to significant others. They are also rather aggressive and people are as likely to get assaulted by girls as they are by guys.
Most guys I've met are much much more laid back. Dads who don't take care of their children are looked down on (as they should be). Many guys care a lot about their appearance and spend a lot of money and time to look how they want (not just "metrosexuals").
Those are just my experiences though and I maintain that this is just based on the people I knew and that individuals can act however the heck they want.

Quote from: pretty on July 06, 2012, 12:56:12 PM
Well no, you're right, it is resting more explicitly on the brain science. That is its more objective academic legitimacy. By public, I meant that in the public consciousness that translates to a sense of how having a female brain affects the affinities and behavior of a trans person to be more similar to their expressed gender, since yeah, our brain is what is responsible for what kind of person we are.

Is that true? In a weird way my lack of overt femininity seems to make it easier rather than harder for other people to understand. There isn't any way to classify me as "just gay" or "really feminine man" because I don't sleep with guys and I'm not particularly femme... it forces people to see me as me, and what they see is a girl.

I think, frankly, passability is the big key to legitimacy in public consciousness. We are an incredibly image-oriented culture, and if you look like a girl, move like a girl, speak like a girl and smell like a girl - you are a girl. Oh, and it helps if you are hot too.

As much data as the National Center for Transgender Equality wants to spit out, it's the Jenna Talackovas who are winning people over.

Quote from: pretty on July 06, 2012, 12:30:51 PM
For example, if person A likes scrapbooking, creative writing, home decorating, soap operas and ballet, then person A is naturally going to find themselves surrounded primarily by women and the people that they have most in common with are going to be women. Don't you think person A would feel weird if person A happened to be a man? Certainly they would notice that they were the odd one out in all or most of their social circles. And it would be made worse if the people in their life prevented them from participating in their interests or pushed them into other things they weren't interested in because they are a man. They might begin to think, "if I had been born as a woman I could be myself and do all the things I like to do and people wouldn't treat me poorly for it," and by extension, "I should have been born as a woman.' Then comes identifying as a woman and wanting to be called she.

Anyway, that kind of situation is what GID describes and that is what pretty much all of its public and societal legitimacy as a major health condition is resting on so 

GID also makes the distinction between cross-gender identification and wanting advantages of being the other sex:

QuoteTable 3 DSM-IV diagnostic criteria for Gender Identity Disorder (for
children)
A. A strong and persistent cross-gender identification (not merely a
desire for any perceived cultural advantages of being the other sex)
In children, the disturbance is manifested by at least four (or more) of the
following
(1) repeatedly stated desire to be, or insistence that he or she is, the
other sex
(2) in boys, preference for cross-dressing or simulating female attire;
in girls, insistence on wearing only stereotypical masculine
clothing
(3) strong and persistent preferences for cross-sex roles in makebelieve
play or persistent fantasies of being the other sex
(4) intense desire to participate in the stereotypical games and pastimes
of the other sex
(5) strong preference for playmates of the other sex

I think I get the point you're trying to make that women generally prefer feminine pastimes and vice versa. But your post makes it sound as if people develop the desire to be a woman because of feminine interests. Many (if not most) of the world's top hairstylists, fashion and interior designers are men. Why aren't they transitioning?

I would feel really sorry for person A in your example for concluding they're a female based on cultural stereotypes.

Quote from: Sarah7 on July 06, 2012, 01:13:54 PM
Is that true? In a weird way my lack of overt femininity seems to make it easier rather than harder for other people to understand. There isn't any way to classify me as "just gay" or "really feminine man" because I don't sleep with guys and I'm not particularly femme... it forces people to see me as me, and what they see is a girl.

I think, frankly, passability is the big key to legitimacy in public consciousness. We are an incredibly image-oriented culture, and if you look like a girl, move like a girl, speak like a girl and smell like a girl - you are a girl. Oh, and it helps if you are hot too.

As much data as the National Center for Transgender Equality wants to spit out, it's the Jenna Talackovas who are winning people over.

Well, I don't see why it wouldn't be the Jenna Talackovas winning people over  . There is certainly a difference between an academic and layman approach. I think the superficial follows from the internal though. Femininity and passing go hand in hand, whether it's makeup or mannerisms or overall presentation, and whether or not you believe that physical femininity and passing potential is actually linked to mental femininity. It's easier for people to accept that someone is a woman if they remind them of other women. If they don't remind them of other women, then it feels like a miscategorization.

But yea at the end of the day I am only trying to live in the world that we do live in, where for better or for worse, you've gotta walk the walk for people to believe you.

Quote from: Forum Admin on July 06, 2012, 01:32:02 PM
GID also makes the distinction between cross-gender identification and wanting advantages of being the other sex:

I think I get the point you're trying to make that women generally prefer feminine pastimes and vice versa. But your post makes it sound as if people develop the desire to be a woman because of feminine interests. Many (if not most) of the world's top hairstylists, fashion and interior designers are men. Why aren't they transitioning?

I would feel really sorry for person A in your example for concluding they're a female based on cultural stereotypes.

It's not at all only about interests. Those are just the easiest examples to work with. For me it extends to interests, emotional character and identity, sexuality, etc. It's a general observation of what kind of place I am in when I relate to other people and how that changes based on who those people are. It's a judgment of the real essence of my personality. Not as an arbitrary choice between meaningless binaries but as a real and consistent preference that is in line with and better understood by one group of people.

I think you know pretty clearly what they mean when they say "perceived advantages," and I'm talking about an entirely different thing with the interests. I don't think "fitting in and being accepted and valued as a member of your social group" falls under "perceived cultural advantages of being the other sex."

Quote from: Adam1 on July 06, 2012, 03:55:30 AM
I'm up there with you. I'm not really sure how you can be mentally male or female.

If you're biologically male isn't all your behavior, by default, male behavior? Even if you put on pink dresses that behavior still would be male wouldn't it? And vice versa

And that is the crux of the problem, that some of us are born with a brain that tells us: "our gender is female," when our external genitals are male. This is your gender identity, that is not to be confused with the gender roles imposed or adopted by you or by society at large.

Current bain-imaging techniques indicate that as an AVERAGE the human male and female brain are architectural and operationally different. Some process and architectures are plastic enough so that can be change by "thought management" or by drugs(hormones) and other are fix. Yet the data also clearly shows that a purely female or purely male brains are rare.

Are there any advantages to being female? In western culture at least women are viewed as inferior and it's so entrenched in the cultural language that pointing it out gets you labeled as hysterical, or worse, a man hating feminist dyke. You just have to look at the words that are considered the most vulgar and profane words imaginable...they are all slang terms for female genitalia.

And back to the original point, yes I do think that there are difference between how the male and female brain works, it's been shown that there are differences in the structure of male and female brain and that these differeces are apparent in the transexual population i.e. a MtF will have similat structures to a natal female brain.

One of my core beliefs is that the gender binary has become increasingly meaningless in Western civilization. It's still there, on a superficial level, but men and women are able to forge their own identities. Men can be stay-at-home Dads, women are mostly REQUIRED to work. The hunter/nester dynamic is dead.

I agree with Adam1's view that we shouldn't limit transition to people that fit such a narrow definition. For me, transitioning is an answer to an OVERWHELMING desire to be the opposite gender. Am I that gender already, the stereotypical woman trapped in a man's body? I'm not sure. Blanchard would probably classify me as an autogynophile, but his theories are nonsense. I like hockey, comic books, video games, sci-fi, and plenty of other stereotypical male pastimes, but so do plenty of natal women. I've been called domineering and authoritative, again, traditionally male characteristics, but natal women also hold these traits. In my case they're likely an outgrowth of my disability, which has forced me to work harder for everything I have. There are a plethora of environmental factors that can force either gender to any random interest or character trait.

Stereotypes are not a proper measure for transsexualism because they can fail at the individual level. People should be allowed to define who they are for themselves, whether or not they fit into the norm.

Quote from: pretty on July 06, 2012, 01:33:40 PM

I think you know pretty clearly what they mean when they say "perceived advantages," and I'm talking about an entirely different thing with the interests. I don't think "fitting in and being accepted and valued as a member of your social group" falls under "perceived cultural advantages of being the other sex."

Why not? I don't think they mean just females transitioning for a pay raise if that's what you're getting at.
Cultural advantages could include perceived freedom to wear dresses, pursue feminine interests and date men without ridicule.

Quote from: Forum Admin on July 06, 2012, 03:18:15 PM
Why not? I don't think they mean just females transitioning for a pay raise if that's what you're getting at.
Cultural advantages could include perceived freedom to wear dresses, pursue feminine interests and date men without ridicule.

Could mean those things, but that's pretty obviously not what they were getting at, since if you read a couple lines down, they list preferences for the other sex's stereotypical dress and activities as essential criteria.