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College Allows Transgender Man to Expose Himself to Young Girls

Started by Shana A, November 02, 2012, 08:29:37 AM

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Carbon

Quote from: Stephe on November 10, 2012, 02:46:19 PM
I guess I see this as "Do you REALLY need to change your clothes that bad?" I mean if I did go to a gym, I would just wear gym clothes there and wear them home, avoid the whole situation. Or wear sweats over them. I just simple wouldn't go to a womans only sauna. THAT is a luxury anyway. Trying to take every liberty we possibly can risks hurting others and I'm not talking about the 17 year old girl who saw them. Who this person hurt was every transgender person in this country. They gave the right wing press fuel to wage a war against us, to sway lawmakers to think twice about passing laws in our favor etc. This case will get brought up every time a "bathroom issue" arises. How we feel honestly doesn't matter, it's "What is the public perception?" and it's not good.

The "right wing" people were always going to criticize us, it's not something she caused. The bigots are going to criticize us and make our lives miserable at every chance they get. Rolling over, hiding ourselves from them, and criticizing trans women who don't do what the bigots want isn't going to make things better.
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the_physicist

#81
Quote from: Carbon on November 10, 2012, 05:13:29 PMWhat if she was intersex? Would it be okay for her to use the suana then?

i don't think the general public think of trans women as anything other than 'men in dresses', sadly. and intersex people they think of some mythical hermaphrodites that don't exist in reality. if she's intersex in a real world way, not in a fantasy book way, then the public also won't give a poo or not about her intersex status any more than they will give a poo about her being transgender.

the changing room issues are so thorny. a source that isn't alarmist and misgendering her might be better to say whether this was caused by some accident or not. the source makes it sound like she's not even bothering to try and cover up at all, but maybe it's best not to take the source at face value either... seeing as they misgender her for one.  :-\

:(
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Carbon

#82
Quote from: the_physicist on November 10, 2012, 05:31:41 PM
i don't think the general public think of trans women as anything other than 'men in dresses', sadly. and intersex people they think of some mythical hermaphrodites that don't exist in reality. if she's intersex in a real world way, not in a fantasy book way, then the public also won't give a poo or not about her intersex status any more than they will give a poo about her being transgender.

the changing room issues are so thorny. a source that isn't alarmist and misgendering her might be better to say whether this was caused by some accident or not. the source makes it sound like she's not even bothering to try and cover up at all, but maybe it's best not to take the source at face value either... seeing as they misgender her for one.  :-\

Yeah, I think what's telling is that there are NO instances where there specific people saying she behaved inappropriately in specific instances. It's just "omg, man in the locker room. what if UNDERAGE GIRLS see a PENIS. think of all the horrible ways that could happen."

If a cis woman was just awkwardly walking around the locker room naked all the time my bet is that someone would complain eventually too. I think people sometimes use saunas while wearing a towel (maybe? I think they do that on TV)  and she might need to change clothes at some point like if she needed to take a shower. Those are basically the only times and it should be pretty easy to avoid someone naked then for more than like half a second. There's not any reason the swim team espicially needs to use the sauna anyway.
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Stephe

Quote from: Carbon on November 10, 2012, 05:18:33 PM
The "right wing" people were always going to criticize us, it's not something she caused.

I said she gave them fuel to fight with. They can play this card when needed and I promise this isn't the last we will hear of this.

Quote from: Carbon on November 10, 2012, 05:13:29 PM

And basically all we have is that a girl saw her sitting in the sauna (by herself, not hurting anybody) and went back and told people there was a man in there and all this stuff happens.

What if she was intersex? Would it be okay for her to use the suana then? What if someone is missing a limb or had their face disfigured in an accident? Do we need to protect people from seeing that too (since plenty of people find those things "disturbing")?

Geeeeze.

I live my life as a woman and expect to be treated as one. That said, if I was standing somewhere naked I would totally expect the general pubblic to see me as a man if my penis is there for everyone to see. Clothed, what's in my pants is no ones business and I plan to keep it that way. Naked, then yes my -sex- isn't open for debate. If someone walks into a sauna and there is someone with a penis in there, why do you expect her to think? "oh that's probably a woman with a penis"? Again, we ARE an emerging minority and need to be sensitive to issues like this.

And you may think it's creepy but a penis in a woman's sauna isn't something many women wouldn't notice. It's not a "minor detail". It's not that a penis is "disturbing", it's that men are not allowed to be in womens spaces for a reason. A female with a missing limb is. And as much as trans people won't agree, to the general public penis = man. It's back to where I said "what's in my pants is no one else's business". And is why I would never give the public the opportunity to see, as far as they know I have girl parts downstairs and I plan to keep it that way.
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Stephe

Quote from: Carbon on November 10, 2012, 06:10:21 PM
There's not any reason the swim team espicially needs to use the sauna anyway.

So what specific reason then would anyone have for using one?
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Carbon

Quote from: Stephe on November 10, 2012, 06:23:03 PM
So what specific reason then would anyone have for using one?

Because they paid money to have access to it/are part of a community that that was created as a resource for? The swim team didn't/aren't. If they feel uncomfortable, they don't have to use it. I probably would never use a sauna with someone else in there but that doesn't mean it's the other person's fault for using it.
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Carbon

Also one of the articles says that she could see the girls changing from the suana originally but that they added screens? I feel like that's actually pretty creepy, not anything the women did but that they set it up so people can see you changing from the suana. It shouldn't have ever been like that.
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DanicaCarin

I was hoping this story would turn out to be a false accusation! :embarrassed: If its true she was walking around the locker room, sauna, & showers in her B-day suit then that is wrong. Its rude and inconsiderate regardless of the ages of the other occupants. Use a towel like everybody else. This kind of behavior will not win/gin us acceptance with society as a whole.

I'm not saying we should hide or walk on egg shells for acceptance, but we can't thumb our noses to society and demand respect. How often do we discuss ways in which we can "blend" in with out target gender? We talk about everything from how we speak to what we wear. We take potentially dangerous medications, surgeries, & spend thousands to blend in!  All in the hopes that by acting within the norms of our target gender we will fit in and be accepted.

How did this woman think her behavior was going to achieve any of that for her or Trans folks as a whole? ::) Further more, she has given us all a "black eye". This is ammunition for the groups that accuse us of being perverts who want to get in the ladies room so we can get our jollies!

Like I said, I hope this turns out to be a false accusation!

Dani
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DanicaCarin

Quote from: Brooke777 on November 02, 2012, 03:08:52 PM
It died in the U.S. I was told that happened during the 60s

Not sure about the date, but it was some time after people would go to blows over the last Elmo doll during Christmas of all times! ::)
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DanicaCarin

Quote from: Snowpaw on November 02, 2012, 04:07:49 PM
If she exposes herself to minors knowing full well there are alternatives to changing then yes she has other issues. Issues that will always start small. I don't care if you think it's hate mongering. I really don't. Kiddy diddlers always start small. It's pretty ridiculous we keep them alive in prisons for so long.

I hate pedofiles. I don't care if it is hate mongering. I don't. I will never EVER stand up for them or see them as human.

As someone who was molested as a child(I've never reported it) I can say that your not too far off the mark Snowpaw. We have to protect the children, cause they can't protect it themselves.  I don't like violence, but when it comes to protecting children & animals(Who can't even speak to call attention to their abuse) then some times a "heavy" hand is needed! There are people in this world who commit horrid acts on children and animals. I have no sympathy for them!

As far as this "dummy" is concerned... I'm not sure she falls into child pervert category!

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DanicaCarin

Quote from: tekla on November 02, 2012, 11:03:43 PM
this college has a bizarro world reputation anyway because they turn out a lot of pseudo-educated malcontents and anarchists.

Got rejected by them eh?  That's how that sounds in the real world, you know, like when Sara Palin who could barely make it out of community college criticized people who went to Yale and Harvard as 'elite'.  Not understanding that being 'elite' was exactly why they went to the Ivy League in the first place.  Perhaps they are choosing pseudo-educated over uneducated.

And 'malcontents' are responsible for 100% of all social/cultural change, 100% of the time.

From Wiki
The Evergreen State College has garnered many academic accolades. According to U.S. News & World Report's 2009-2010 college rankings, Evergreen is ranked #1 in the West for Undergraduate Teaching at Masters Universities. It was ranked as the 5th best public college in the Masters West Category "a region stretching from Texas to the Pacific." It was also ranked as #29th overall in the Masters West Category outranking other state schools such as Central Washington University and Eastern Washington University, as well as many other public schools in the region such as Humboldt State University, Boise State University, Eastern Oregon University, Western Oregon University, and Southern Oregon University. Evergreen is also among the top colleges in the nation for offering the best first-year experiences to freshmen, which entails building into the curriculum first-year seminars or other programs that bring small groups of students together with faculty and staff on a regular basis. Author and former New York Times education editor Loren Pope cites Evergreen as one of two public colleges in the United States in his book Colleges That Change Lives. In addition, The Princeton Review lists Evergreen as one of the Best Western Colleges for 2009-2010.

Yeah, that sounds like some all bizarro world reputation alright.

I really resent that!
Am I within my rights then in thinking that you make us look out-of-it, not part of the current culture, and are reinforcing the notion that you're only seeking special rights for yourself while working to curb them for 'other' people who you just don't like so much because they are 'different'?  Can I resent that?

And golly gosh, could we please have the people who didn't raise children, or didn't have them, and are about as likely to associate with people in that age group one on one, as equals, as KKK members are to go to a NWA concert --- could they go out and get ice cream or something?  Pretty please?  Childless people always tend to romanticize childhood and rarely understand what these kids are really like.  These kids today are remarkably well-behaved (especially when compared to their parents and grandparents), very well-informed on a level that's hard to even comprehend if you didn't watch it while it happened, more sophisticated then their elders in many ways, and constantly exercise better judgement and far greater tolerance than any previous generation.  They have grown up with access to all the knowledge in the world, while getting precious little wisdom from the so-called adults around them.  So they learned to see the world in a very different, and very new way.  Once we get most of their parents, and grandparents out of the way we're going to have a hell of a country.

tekla.......  ::) Why are you attacking her over her view? Guess what... Not every liberal, LGBT, or moderates like some of the "trash" coming out of universities theses days! People espousing Communism and hatred of Jews & Christians are "cool" but someone draws a cartoon of a Muslim and off with your head!  People who have no respect for anything but what they want/think should be the way the World works! Just as I don't subscribe to Palin's views, I don't get in bed with Commies and Nazis!

You would be wise to keep a distance as well. In the end they will turn on you too!

This is what they do. They kill people. All rationalized as being for the greater good. No sacrifice is too great when the left forces it on someone else. For the greater good!

National Socialist killed Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals, the crippled & Retarded. For the greater good! Eugenics campains waged against the lesser races. For the greater Good! The starvation of the Ukraine. For the greater good! The extermination of the educated or prosperous by Pol Pot. For the greater good! Millions killed by Stalin, Lenin, & Che. All for the greater good!

When the leftist tell you to give up your freedoms and liberties, that its for the greater good, know at  the end of that rail line is death and despair! Those boxcars have carried millions before you, and they will carry millions more!

Visit a Holocaust Museum, monuments to the ideology of leftisim/socialism/communism! :'(

Dani
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Snowpaw

Quote from: DaniStarr on November 20, 2012, 06:06:50 AM
As someone who was molested as a child(I've never reported it) I can say that your not too far off the mark Snowpaw. We have to protect the children, cause they can't protect it themselves.  I don't like violence, but when it comes to protecting children & animals(Who can't even speak to call attention to their abuse) then some times a "heavy" hand is needed! There are people in this world who commit horrid acts on children and animals. I have no sympathy for them!

As far as this "dummy" is concerned... I'm not sure she falls into child pervert category!

I don't remember making that post...what the hell...

Edit:Blech had to remove them. Very volatile posts, too hard to explain why I don't remember posting them. Doesn't matter.
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DanicaCarin

Quote from: Snowpaw on November 20, 2012, 06:37:57 AM
I don't remember making that post...what the hell...

Edit:Blech had to remove them. Very volatile posts, too hard to explain why I don't remember posting them. Doesn't matter.

You didn't make that post. I did. I mentioned your name due to the post you made earlier. Sorry for the confusion!
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Snowpaw

Quote from: DaniStarr on November 20, 2012, 06:52:29 AM
You didn't make that post. I did. I mentioned your name due to the post you made earlier. Sorry for the confusion!

No, it's hard to explain. Dun worry about it :P
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Carbon

Quote from: DaniStarr on November 20, 2012, 06:34:19 AM
Visit a Holocaust Museum, monuments to the ideology of leftisim/socialism/communism! :'(



I don't... Hitler wasn't a communist. And he was no more of a "leftist" than the current US leadership since he made no attempt to eliminate private property or capitalism. Hitler also hated communists and referred to communist leaders as explicitly Jewish (which is obviously totally divorced from reality but it's what he said) and communists killed in large numbers concurrently with the haulocaust. Communists were pretty far from being the focus of the haulocaust but they were still targeted en masse.

I mean there's a lot of things you can criticize Marxist leaders for in the USSR, etc but in Germany they were mostly innocent people who were killed for not going a long with Hitler's plans... or even people who were genuinely "guilty" of fighting against Nazi rule. Not people who carried out or supported the Haulocaust. 
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DanicaCarin

Quote from: Carbon on November 20, 2012, 06:57:45 AM
I don't... Hitler wasn't a communist. And he was no more of a "leftist" than the current US leadership since he made no attempt to eliminate private property or capitalism. Hitler also hated communists and referred to communist leaders as explicitly Jewish (which is obviously totally divorced from reality but it's what he said) and communists killed in large numbers concurrently with the Holocaust. Communists were pretty far from being the focus of the Holocaust but they were still targeted en masse.

I mean there's a lot of things you can criticize Marxist leaders for in the USSR, etc but in Germany they were mostly innocent people who were killed for not going a long with Hitler's plans... or even people who were genuinely "guilty" of fighting against Nazi rule. Not people who carried out or supported the Holocaust.

I didn't say Hitler was a Communist, nor did I say that Marxist/Communist ideas were part of Hitlers ideas. My point was, that Communism, Marxism, & National Socialist aka Nazis have proved to be less than positive influences through out history! And that there seems to be a resurgence of some of the ideas from these political philosophies  coming from "higher education" these days. Not all higher education, but some of them.  All too often I hear people jumping on the band wagon of hate for Jews & Israel. Wanting to boycot or sanction them. Where  many of the ones blaming Israel seem to think the Palestine people can do no wrong. And for that matter the Arab world in general! I see young people who think Che is cool!  :o These ideas have come from some of the more "liberal" universities & educators!

Regardless, my point was that associating with folks who believe in these ideals won't end well! They always turn on you! Play with fire and sooner or later you get burnt. Play stupid games, WIN STUPID prizes! That was my point.

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V M

Hi friends  :police:

Time for a time out... Take a break, take a breath and find something constructive to do

This topic has nothing to do with Hitler, Nazis, Marxist or Communism nor does it have anything to do with the Israeli/Palestinian conflict
If you wish to debate such topics, find the proper forum for such discussions

Please stay on topic

Thank you

V M
The main things to remember in life are Love, Kindness, Understanding and Respect - Always make forward progress

Superficial fanny kissing friends are a dime a dozen, a TRUE FRIEND however is PRICELESS


- V M
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tekla

It seems funny to me that a couple of articles taken from extreme right-wing sources, (Fox, and WND, which makes Fox look liberal in comparison) are taken at face-value and gospel truth.  Are they unbiased sources merely reporting fact, or do they have an agenda they are trying to push, and this story furthers that agenda?

Wouldn't we (shouldn't we?) be praising Evergreen for having such and open, inclusive and accommodating policy toward it's trans students?  Why because of one incident is it now important to 'shut it down' 'because of the children'?  Could that have been the goal all along?  To find a way to attack this college and its' policies, to find a way to force the college to roll-back these (what to us would have been otherwise very commendable) policies for the sake of people who are not even a part of that college community?  In the guise of 'protecting the children' are these people really attacking the college and it's policy?  And, if such an attack works on the school, is there any reason that 'for the children' could be used to roll back other policies in other areas - like dressing rooms?  After all, there are children in Macy's when mom is shopping, who is thinking of them?  Actually, simply and just being trans in public could be taken as an affront to all children according to - well according to the very people writing/publishing these stories, that's who.

Look how fast a whole bunch of people - in the trans community itself even - jumped on the bandwagon to bash the school and it's policies, when in fact those policies were made by the school to protect us.  Should they not have done that?  (Fox/WND sure don't' think they should have, so you better check out what side of the street you're walking down, and who is on that side of the street with you.)  Should our most adult institutions be reduced to standards of kindergartens for the sake of the occasional child moving through them?

That.... & how much information is missing?  I'm thinking tons.  Was the person right there next to the swim team?  Or was this at some huge dressing room complex in a public university, where seeing them from across the room is almost the equivalent of seeing them from down the block?  And the sauna?  WTF are kids even doing near the sauna in the first place?  Am I supposed to think that 6 and 7 year olds are using the sauna, because I'm doubting that real hard.

So, what it looks like more and more is Fox/WND trying to find advocates for their extreme right-wing/conservative policies within the Trans movement and give them ammo to destroy the movement from the inside out - particularly from the point of view of people who 'already got theirs' and would now seek to deny that to others.


And people act like college students are some innocent little snowflakes, just waiting for that psudo-Marxist (in his newish - but not NEW - Sabb/Volvo) Econ professor to lure them to the dark side.  All most students care about (ideology wise) is 'is that going to be on the test' - they have no intention of it being in their actual life.  And putting 'higher education' in quotes, heck, even using the term higher education, is kind of a dead give-a-way.  Nobody who works and lives in that atmosphere calls it that.  Besides, far and away, the most popular courses on college campuses are taught by the business college, and I can assure you that very little ideology (beyond that of 'the bottom line') is being taught in them.  Increasingly there seems to be people who don't much like the idea of education beyond indoctrination, and by labeling it 'elite' or 'liberal' (and golly gosh yes, there is an entire section of courses called 'Liberal Arts' - but it's not what you think, it's math)  they seek to diminish it's influence as well as it's impact.  And a vast part of the influence and impact upon students that a college has is not the 'political philosophy' of its' students or teachers (no one is listening to that anyway) - but in the very nature of how a liberal society is structured and run.




BTW... I think that some college student buying a $30 tee-shirt with Che's picture on it is not considered 'advocacy' but 'irony' - for sure that's how I think of it ... Che Shirts for more money than Che would have had to spend on one.  And I doubt that his estate or heirs are making any money off of it either (thought that would only make it more ironic wouldn't it?).   And I sure don't see anyone running around talking about how Communism is cool.  The Che wearing hipsters ain't hanging out at the local hipster place - despite the Che shirt - drinking PBR TallBoys and talking about how groovy Marx and Lenin were.  Hell, Communists don't even think Communism is cool anymore.  Communism is a late-19th/20th Century notion, and we're in the 21st Century, let it go already (everyone else has).  I mean last time I saw a Che shirt was when Apple launched its new iPhone, and I'm not sold on the 'commie lovers' standing in line for $600 telephones.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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DanicaCarin

 :)  Hi tekla.....

Sorry about my rant earlier :embarrassed:

I was hoping this was a case of either hardcore news bias, to a false accusation from one or more of the individuals present. One question I asked myself.... Was there any problems previously? Was there any students collage or otherwise, that would confirm or dispute the accusations? If this girl was running around in the buff all the time, wouldn't someone have said something prior?

I and others here at Susan's feel that if true, it really is classless/disrespectful of her. If its a "which hunt", then why isn't there anyone, including the young lady,  denying the accusations? If she came forward and denied the accusations, I suspect many in the LGBT community would support her. Regardless, I think most her at Susan's are ESTATIC with the policies and response from the collage. Its more along the lines of I(and others here) thinking she may have abused that policy.

Ohhhh... And happy Turkey day to you and yours!

Best,

Dani
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Stephe

The news feed I saw didn't seem to show any negative bias but we really don't have any idea what actually happened as far as details. Clearly something happened.

I do think it's odd for people here to suggest that a women's locker room at a university (or anywhere for that matter) should be -for adults only-. And that these minors had no right to be in there, as opposed to a pre-op MTF maybe should just use some common sense about what is appropriate behavior. No one is saying a pre-op isn't a woman, or that they are subhuman etc. Why would I even think that being I AM a pre-op woman.  It's just that if your plumbing doesn't match what's on the door, maybe you should make very sure no one can see your -wrong plumbing-? If some area on the planet forces a pre-op to be totally naked in a womans only space, maybe that isn't somewhere she should be visiting even if she has "the right" to be there.

It's sorta like you see a car running a red light. Yes you have the right of way, you can legally pull in front of that car and the wreck will be their fault. But why would anyone do this?
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