Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I am interested in what you all think about gender roles.

What behaviors did you eventually learn you needed to change? How did you go about changing them?

How much conscious thought do/did you put into "acting" female compared to being yourself?

I have noticed my physical behavior changes drastically when I am with people who know I am MtF. I just act more feminine. I don't put much conscious thought into it. Instead, I am often surprised to catch myself making girls sounds or gestures.

I have played a man for most of my life. I have trouble believing that by just being myself I will act completely female.

What have y'all worked on? What do you all consider going too far?

Tori

acting = fake

just be yourself, don't act in a certain way, just because society declares it to be "female".

Quote from: Zarania on January 28, 2012, 07:31:34 PM
acting = fake

just be yourself, don't act in a certain way, just because society declares it to be "female".

I expected a reply like yours and thank you.

I agree in spirit.

I disagree a bit when it comes to behavior. Women walk differently, sit differently, and most important, talk differently (although that is a discussion for another forum)... etc.


The word "act" is the root of the word "action" and a person's actions inform others about who they are.

Everybody acts. I act happy whenever I see my neighbor who I hate.

Meryl Streep acts. She finds a way to be believable in most people's eyes even when she is playing Margaret Thatcher.

Good acting comes from honesty.

I am good at acting male. People don't think i try too hard. Yet, I think I'll make a better female.

I haven't really worked on much of anything  :)  I've always been feminine by nature and people would comment on it saying things like
'Why don't you act like a man?' or 'This'll make a man out of you' etc.

It would kinda crack me up sometimes, people would tell me 'Just be yourself' and then ask 'Why don't you act like a man?'  :laugh:  Kind of a mixed message to say the least, But I've noticed that life is full of contradictions

Well, you can see how well trying to 'Act like a man' turned out  :laugh:  Anyway, I got tired of acting and decided to just be myself

I find that folks that are often harping about gender norms tend to be the actors  :)

Last week I realised just how much 'nuture' plays in our lives.   In two separate incidents on two different days I heard the following:

Middle-Aged Woman(speaking to two 18 month old boys): I'll bet that you are a real handful!(This was said with real enthusiasm by the woman).   Although these twin boys were very young I doubt that this was the first time - or will be the last - they were exposed to gender specific nurturing.   Boys are supposed to be boisterous, outgoing, untameable etc.

The second incident - also involving a middle-aged woman was as follows:

MAW(speaking to a boy of about 3 years of age) "Oh just look at you!  You're so big and strong.  I am sure that you love your grub, don't you?"

This slow drip, drip placing of suggestions into the mind slowly but surely has a long-term effect.   

I'm just going to give my opinion on the subject, just my opinion, which many will likely disagree with, and won't be applicable to all readers due to individual philosophical differences and difference circumstances.

And with that disclaimer... it doesn't matter.

You think if Obama walked and talked like whatever a woman is supposed to walk and talk like, he'd be read as a chick? Not a chance. Same in reverse.

People act individually, they just do. If you pass, it's because you look and sound female. Not because of how you walk or the words you say or any of that.

In this I define pass as being 'read' as cis in your identified gender. Not obviously presenting as one and causing people to humor you.

It doesn't matter, if you pass you pass. How you walk won't change a thing.

@VM Yeah, the beauty in people is how they are all different.

You don't have to act to be yourself. But everybody acts. Most people are not acting like themselves. They play a part. Most don't even recognize it.

Transition helps people act like their proper gender. Or like we tend to say around here, act like we really are.

That said, the point of this thread is about differences in behavioral gestures and weather they are conscious or not. What behaviors keep/kept outing y'all. What did/didn't you do about them?

I am happy to have a semantic discussion about the definition of acting, but I actually am well trained in that art.

Quote from: Asfsd4214 on January 28, 2012, 08:18:22 PM
I'm just going to give my opinion on the subject, just my opinion, which many will likely disagree with, and won't be applicable to all readers due to individual philosophical differences and difference circumstances.

And with that disclaimer... it doesn't matter.

You think if Obama walked and talked like whatever a woman is supposed to walk and talk like, he'd be read as a chick? Not a chance. Same in reverse.

People act individually, they just do. If you pass, it's because you look and sound female. Not because of how you walk or the words you say or any of that.

In this I define pass as being 'read' as cis in your identified gender. Not obviously presenting as one and causing people to humor you.

It doesn't matter, if you pass you pass. How you walk won't change a thing.

Passing is a combo of things. You don't have to get 100% on the quiz to pass. You just have to get enough right to not fail.

Voice and body language (actions) are non-surgical means of passing. Dressing (also an act) helps one pass. Make-up? Acting. Crossing your legs?

You get the point.

Some would say these are more important than SRS, FFS and BA. Perhaps even more than HRT.

I can understand how the word 'acting' may send the wrong signals and encourage people who wish to be stealth, to be like drag queens, but that misses the nuance of my original post. 

Tell me y'all don't like being told, "You're acting like a girl."

Quote from: kelly_aus on January 28, 2012, 07:35:06 PM
I don't think about it much at all..  I just do what comes naturally and that seems to work for me.. But I've learnt that I was never really as much of a 'man' as I thought I was - even people I went to high school with could see it.

Am I a girly girl? No, but people are in no doubt that I am a woman..

This is inspiring. Thank you for your post.

Quote from: Tori on January 28, 2012, 08:29:33 PM
Passing is a combo of things. You don't have to get 100% on the quiz to pass. You just have to get enough right to not fail.

Voice and body language (actions) are non-surgical means of passing. Dressing (also an act) helps one pass. Make-up? Acting. Crossing your legs?

You get the point.

Some would say these are more important than SRS, FFS and BA. Perhaps even more than HRT.

I can understand how the word 'acting' may send the wrong signals and encourage people who wish to be stealth to be like drag queens but that misses the nuance of my original post.

Some would say a lot of things...

'Dressing' helps you get people to refer to you identified gender, it doesn't help you pass.

Crossing your legs? You think if 99.9% of guys crossed their legs, or girls didn't, it would affect the gender they're identified as?

Voice, face, and body type are what's needed for 'passing' as I would define it (being perceived as a member of your identified gender).

Everything else will do only to us what it would do to anyone else, which is to help with being perceived as trying to imitate a member of your identified gender whilst being read as an actual member of the opposite gender.

That's my opinion and you don't have to believe it.

Your disclaimers crack me up!

Yeah, we have to use words carefully on this forum. I love the way you deal with it. Fret not about me. I love a good discussion and they rarely happen with people whom I see 100% eye to eye.

I don't think we are in disagreement on substance... just semantics.

MtF's spend a bulk of their lives living as the wrong sex. Acting as someone else. I understand why it becomes hard to admit y'all are acting now, too. But that assumes that acting is bad. Acting is what gets us out of bed. What feeds us. What earns our next pay check.

That said, gender roles are exactly that... roles. People are acting 99.9% of their lives. It has nothing to do with being TS. We purt' near always act the way we want people to see us... doesn't matter what hormonal cocktail we're on.

Like I said, I am happy to discuss semantics all day and night but I would really like to talk about changes in behavior and action.

Have you never made female faces in the mirror?

Why on earth would anybody try to do that?

;)

Quote from: Tori on January 28, 2012, 08:53:31 PM
Your disclaimers crack me up!

Yeah, we have to use words carefully on this forum. I love the way you deal with it. Fret not about me. I love a good discussion and they rarely happen with people whom I see 100% eye to eye.

I don't think we are in disagreement on substance... just semantics.

MtF's spend a bulk of their lives living as the wrong sex. Acting as someone else. I understand why it becomes hard to admit y'all are acting now, too. But that assumes that acting is bad. Acting is what gets us out of bed. What feeds us. What earns our next pay check.

That said, gender roles are exactly that... roles. People are acting 99.9% of their lives. It has nothing to do with being TS. We purt' near always act the way we want people to see us... doesn't matter what hormonal cocktail we're on.

Like I said, I am happy to discuss semantics all day and night but I would really like to talk about changes in behavior and action.

Have you never made female faces in the mirror?

Why on earth would anybody try to do that?

;)

I agree we are all actors, but it's not really the point I was making.

I wasn't denying the existence of social roles or gender specific general behaviors. I just don't believe it makes any difference in how people perceive you as BEING male or female, just of what it in fact is, acting male or female.

I agree completely and that is a great point to make.

What I am getting at is a little different.

I am pre-HRT. I am transitioning but not yet chemically.

I can work on voice, dress, make-up, and behavior while I wait.

Behavior interests me most because I have not yet seen a non-HRT thread about it here. Also, as an actor, I am well trained at honestly changing my behavior (also all those years acting like a yucky guy).

I appreciate the "Be yourself" mantra. Even while acting on stage I have to be myself or the audience won't believe me... or Meryl Streep. For MOST people, learning to "Be yourself" is the most important lesson of them all. IMO, I am pretty great at being myself.

What I want to discuss is how to be a girl. Yes, hormones and being yourself will do most of the work for you... in many cases.

But we wouldn't call it a 'transition' if it weren't a total change. Part of the change is a change in action. Perhaps the biggest change is liking yourself finally... but people do 'act' female. Y'all women don't have to act that way all the time in order to pass... but like voice work, it can pay off. Otherwise it can give you away.

I hope I am not hurting any feelings here. I am honestly curious.

The T in me can make me feel like a bull in a china shop... particularly on this website. But my intent is noble.

I have seen my share of transsexuals who look and sound like thy should have been cast in "Work It". I want to do better. Behavior is a HUGE part of passing and hormones are not the only way to identify and change behavior.

Hi Tori  :)

I don't think acting as in theatre and film is bad, there are good and bad actors :laugh: There are many I think are great actors, then there are those I don't care for so much

Truly we all are actors in a sense, I guess possibly one question could be how much of it is natural behavior and how much is forced or over emphasized to the point it become ridiculous

Of coarse if someone is doing comedy, sometimes ridiculous is a way of putting a more serious point across

In everyday life we all act in a way that is our natural behavior regardless of the norms

Quote from: V M on January 28, 2012, 09:44:59 PM
Hi Tori  :)

I don't think acting as in theatre and film is bad, there are good and bad actors :laugh: There are many I think are great actors, then there are those I don't care for so much

Truly we all are actors in a sense, I guess possibly one question could be how much of it is natural behavior and how much is forced or over emphasized to the point it become ridiculous

Of coarse if someone is doing comedy, sometimes ridiculous is a way of putting a more serious point across

In everyday life we all act in a way that is our natural behavior regardless of the norms

Thank you V M. You make me giggle in a good way.

Y'all women get acting better than most of my former classmates.

The hang up is: Acting = phony.

I insist it does not.

BAD acting =phony.

We all play a part and some of us are lucky enough to play two in our lifetime.

It takes intelligence and a true sense of self to 'Pass'. But we wouldn't call it passing is we didn't feel like we were getting away with something.

I am glad fate brought me here to Susan's forum. In a couple of years, I will be able to teach what I am asking about.

Acting is not about being phony. It is about DOING things. If I play a cop, I do cop things. Also, I dress like a cop.

People will think I am a cop because I am acting, talking and looking like one.

Would I need surgery?

No.

And yet I can still pass. Why? Because I act like a cop.

If I act too hard, people will detect the phoniness... but if I hit the sweet zone...

It is just like voice, what I am talking about.

I agree... but "act" is different than act.

Acting as "you" is still acting.

I want to know about THAT stuff. How do you "act" yourself?

Again, (and I guess I'm hating on the drag queens tonight... I love you ladies!) I am not talking about being TOO feminine to be perceived real. I am not talking about playing a Drag Queen.

Playing yourSELF is as much an act as any other. It just feels right. But it too is an ACT.

I don't believe hormones do it all... conscious thought also plays a part.

Have YOU never made girl faces in the mirror?

Oh Kelly,

Please don't leave. I love your input and am inspired by you.

I have not pulled up a definition of "Act" because I thought that would be rude.

However, NOBODY yet has answered my questions from my original post. Is that not rude?

And if you DID read said definition, you would know that my semantics are sound.

Like I have said, I will discuss semantics all day, but what I really want is for someone to answer my original post.

You don't think you act? Then kindly review the definition of "act".

Have you NEVER looked at yourself in the mirror and made girly faces?

I am running on T right now, but I am transitioning. It hurts to not be able to communicate properly due to my current hormone imbalance... yet I thought y'all would understand better than most.

The only thing I've put conscious thought into changing has been my voice and now I can't really even force it as low as it was before. Most everything else hasn't changed much really. I always crossed my legs rather than ankle across knees and never had a swagger or anything.


And sometimes for fun, I do act like a bunny, hop around and make bunny faces too.  But I don't get into the whole carrot and cabbage thing as I am anti-vegetable.

Quote from: Jaime on January 28, 2012, 11:09:41 PM
The only thing I've put conscious thought into changing has been my voice and now I can't really even force it as low as it was before. Most everything else hasn't changed much really. I always crossed my legs rather than ankle across knees and never had a swagger or anything.


And sometimes for fun, I do act like a bunny, hop around and make bunny faces too.  But I don't get into the whole carrot and cabbage thing as I am anti-vegetable.

Thank you Jaime. You made my evening.

I have been mocked for fifteen years for sitting like a girl... but it is how I sit.

Is sitting an 'Act"? By definition, yes.

Also, thank you for answering my question. I almost had a breakdown just now, because I thought I was not communicating properly.

I know I have seen all sorts of stuff online and in groups about how you have to learn certain typical female mannerisms, how to hold your arms, what to do with your hands, how to walk, etc.  But honestly, if you find a spot in a busy place where lots of people are walking by, going about their business and just people watch some, you're liable to find that there is a lot of variation. A lot of female deportment has seemed to have fallen by the wayside over the last few generations and I feel that a lot of those things they say you should do kind of went away with the 50's and 60's.

Quote from: Jaime on January 28, 2012, 11:22:59 PM
I know I have seen all sorts of stuff online and in groups about how you have to learn certain typical female mannerisms, how to hold your arms, what to do with your hands, how to walk, etc.  But honestly, if you find a spot in a busy place where lots of people are walking by, going about their business and just people watch some, you're liable to find that there is a lot of variation. A lot of female deportment has seemed to have fallen by the wayside over the last few generations and I feel that a lot of those things they say you should do kind of went away with the 50's and 60's.

Yup.

This is what I've been asking about.

YES. Everybody is different... but you and I both have sat like girls for years. Why? I dunno? Was it conscious for me to sit that way? No. But once it was pointed out? I still sit that way. It BECAME conscious... and it became an 'Act'. In that case, was acting a BAD THING? No? It was honest. I was consciously acting like ME.

Yeah... "Acting" too girly will out you... but we also act like ourselves. Anything we do is an act. Sometimes it is conscious... sometimes sub.

Quote from: Asfsd4214 on January 28, 2012, 08:18:22 PM
It doesn't matter, if you pass you pass. How you walk won't change a thing.

Well you're right I don't agree. One trans friend of mine -would- be quite passable except she carries herself like a guy. She stands like a guy, she sits like a guy and walks like a guy. You can clock her from across the room, not even being close enough to see what she really looks like, just from the mannerisms.

All of this stuff is learned behavior from watching other people. No one "acts like a girl" in a vacuum. To relearn female mannerisms isn't being any more fake than trying to visually be passable as female is. People pick your gender from a variety of clues, if your mannerisms are male, you BETTER be 100% passable visually.

Quote from: Jaime on January 28, 2012, 11:22:59 PM
I know I have seen all sorts of stuff online and in groups about how you have to learn certain typical female mannerisms, how to hold your arms, what to do with your hands, how to walk, etc.  But honestly, if you find a spot in a busy place where lots of people are walking by, going about their business and just people watch some, you're liable to find that there is a lot of variation. A lot of female deportment has seemed to have fallen by the wayside over the last few generations and I feel that a lot of those things they say you should do kind of went away with the 50's and 60's.

The thing to do is just watch people. Reading "how to act feminine" is pointless. Spend an afternoon at the mall watching people and it's clear men carry themselves differently than women. Yes there is some variation but not as much as between male and female. It's just like working out our voice LISTEN to women and you can hear the difference.

Quote from: kelly_aus on January 28, 2012, 11:32:11 PM
I was going to walk away from this discussion.. But I'll take one more bite at it..

Being a 'man' required conscious thought for me, being a woman doesn't - after all, I am a woman.. There are a few things I've had to learn to remember to do, like smooth down a skirt or dress when I sit down.. But they've all been things I already knew, I just needed to remind myself to do them..

I still don't think 'act' is quite the right word to be using.. Perhaps 'action(s)' was the word you were looking for?

Please don't walk away. It is people like you who make this conversation flow. I do not disagree.

Well, except, as I said earlier, "Act" is the root of "Action". They both mean practically the same thing but, as different types of words, they fit differently in the context of sentences.

We may disagree there... but then you disagree with me and common English. ;)

You needed to REMIND yourself? This is a conscious ACT. This is ACTING your gender role. Since you have more experience, I would love more info from you.

Thank you for sticking around,
Tori

Quote from: Stephe on January 28, 2012, 11:45:42 PM
The thing to do is just watch people. Reading "how to act feminine" is pointless. Spend an afternoon at the mall watching people and it's clear men carry themselves differently than women. Yes there is some variation but not as much as between male and female. It's just like working out our voice LISTEN to women and you can hear the difference.

I agree acting like a GIRL is WAY over the top... but do you not watch them for pointers?

Why would somebody do THAT?

Also, great voice! Why is your voice work important? Is it not a conscious action?

I know I am preaching to the choir here.

@ Kelly Aus

Ok.

Bye.

Although if you are going to talk about the OED definition, the polite thing would be to share it with us all.

I am willing to bet the definition is long and has more than one option. ;)

Not that you will add that now that you are done here...

The OED is a big book. 20 volumes. It is very in depth and if you wish to understand the English language, it is the source most intellectuals prefer.

However, the OED you get on google is the condensed version.

The REAL OED requires payment. Since I am still in Grad school, I have free access.

Trust me, I would not use these words if I did not know what they meant.

Here's an example of a single OED definition (this is "acting"... if you want, I could all add "act" and "action"):

Acting

acting, n.
View as: Outline |Full entryQuotations: Show all |Hide all
Pronunciation:  Brit.    /ˈaktɪŋ/ , U.S. /ˈæktɪŋ/
Forms:  see act v.   and -ing suffix1.
Etymology:  < act v. + -ing suffix1.
Thesaurus »
Categories »

1. The performance of a play, scene, or similar dramatic piece; the art or occupation of performing parts in plays, films, etc. In extended use: the action of feigning a particular emotion, feeling, or personality trait; pretence.
In quot. 1664   as a count noun.

1590    R. Greene Neuer too Late ii. sig. B4v,   Men greedie of gaines did fall to practise the acting of such Playes.
1599    J. Rainolds Overthrow Stage-playes 79   For, to passe over the ingenuousnes of the boy that represented Melantho, opposed to the noblenes of Lentulus who did act Laureolus, the vnlikenes whereof in noblenes, and acting, is disprooved already; [etc.].
1643    Actors Remonstr. 4   We have endevoured, as much as in us lies, to instruct one another in the true and genuine Art of acting.
1664    S. Pepys Diary 2 Dec. (1971) V. 335   The play not good, nor anything but the good actings of Baterton and his wife and Harris.
1763    C. Churchill Rosciad in Poems I. 31   Whose Acting's hard, affected, and constrain'd.
1783    H. Blair Lect. Rhetoric II. xlv. 499   While the acting of the play is interrupted, the Spectator can‥suppose a few hours to pass between every Act.
a1817    J. Austen Persuasion (1818) IV. x. 217   Anne admired the good acting of the friend, in being able to shew such pleasure as she did‥in the actual arrival of the very person whose presence must really be interfering with her prime object.
1856    J. A. Froude Hist. Eng. I. 61   Acting was the especial amusement of the English, from the palace to the village green.
1901    Times 1 June 8/3   For the last half-dozen years they had been spectators of the acting of a farce.
1928    'R. West' Strange Necessity 205   The worst of making war, as of acting for the 'movies', is the amount of waiting around on the lot.
1985    M. F. Norden in B. G. Rose TV Genres iii. 41   Despite Lord's wooden acting and the predictable scripting‥, 'Hawaii Five-O' has been the longest-running police detective show as of this writing.
2004    D. Willett et al. Greece (Lonely Planet) (ed. 6) 71/1   Other bars don't bother with the acting. They target intoxicated males with talk of sex and present them with outrageous bills.
2008    Independent 6 May 16/2   Since hanging up his boots in 1997, the philosophising French fruitcake Eric Cantona has employed his charisma in the field of acting.
(Hide quotations)

Thesaurus »

2. The performance of deeds, continued action, behaviour; (in pl.) actions, conduct.

1596    W. Warner Albions Eng. (rev. ed.) sig. A7v (table of contents)    How the Spanyard in those Tumults drifted for France. The Popes incharitable acting therein.
a1617    J. Melville Mem. Own Life (1735) 267   So to direct my Actings as they might tend to his Glory.
a1655    T. Armitage Tryall of Faith (1661) 249   Shall we goe about to measure the counsell of Gods purpose and his acting from eternity by our crooked rule?
1722    D. Defoe Jrnl. Plague Year 10   Rather for a Direction to themselves to act by, than a History of my actings.
1785    J. Hanway Chimney Sweeper xviii. 118   The 9th article, prohibiting the acting without a licence.
1837    Q. Rev. Apr. 565   This arbitrary and capricious way of acting could not fail to vex and displease those who served under the commission.
a1854    Ld. Cockburn Memorials (1856) iii. 164   The past actings of courts ought not to be merely stated, but to be criticised and appreciated.
1954    Internat. & Compar. Law Q. 3 163   Scots law must be applied to test the honesty of actings concerning a Scots company and by that law the actings were not valid actings of the company.
1982    Times 19 May 6/4   Many of us‥have been deeply disturbed by some of the actings of the Council of Members over the last 48 hours.
1997    R. Patai Jadīd al-Islām v. 72   The details presented in chapters below‥will be a description of the thinking, feeling, and acting of this group.
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3. The process of performing an action; performance, execution.

1598    F. Meres tr. Luis de Granada Deuotion 575   The acting and executing of all the duties of spirituall life.
a1616    Shakespeare Julius Caesar (1623) ii. i. 63   Betweene the acting of a dreadfull thing, And the first motion.
1688    J. Stewart Answer to Let. 25   After the acting of such an unchristian Persecution, [the Church of England] would never have been strong enough nor have had the Hearts to indure the like.
1763    J. Hoole tr. T. Tasso Jerusalem Delivered ii. 41   Mine was the counsel, mine the first design, And the last acting of the deed was mine.
1838    R. M. Bird Peter Pilgrim I. 111   A man can practise no virtue safely: he may write about it, he may talk about it‥; but the acting of it will assuredly bring him into trouble.
1853    F. W. Robertson Serm. 1st Ser. viii. 124   Let impression pass on at once to acting.
1979    A. Potocki tr. Pope John Paul II Acting Person iii. 135   The specific response to the values presented in motivation seems to be indicative of‥what distinguishes acting from any submission to action.
1999    C. McKinnon Character, Virtue Theories, & Vices iv. 114   At the moment of acting, this agent will be unaware of the wickedness of his choices.
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4. The exertion of force or influence; working, activity, operation; an instance of this.

1605    T. Tymme tr. J. Du Chesne Pract. Chymicall & Hermeticall Physicke i. xvi. sig. M,   These Mettals of gold and siluer, when they are wholy fixed and corporeat,‥are destitute of al power of acting or working.
a1616    Shakespeare Measure for Measure (1623) ii. i. 12   That the resolute acting of our blood Could haue attain'd th' effect of your owne purpose.
1647    J. Sprigge Anglia Rediviva i. i. 2   This did but put nature upon more vigorous and industrious actings to defend itself.
1754    J. Edwards Careful Enq. Freedom of Will i. i. 3   There is nothing else in the Actings of my Mind, that I am conscious of while I walk.
1781    J. Moore View Society & Manners Italy II. lxii. 221   He remained ignorant of the structure and manner of acting of some of the principle springs [of the watch].
1833    T. Chalmers On Power of God (1835) I. iv. 173   The actings and reactings that take place between man and man.
1846    H. E. Manning Serm. (ed. 2) II. ii. 30   The continual actings of the desires, lusts, imaginations, leave soils and stains.
1915    Wilson Bull. 27 362   Nor could we detect any muscular acting of the throat, which would indicate regurgitation.
2000    Z. Haznadar & Ž. Štih Electromagnetic Fields, Waves & Numerical Methods vi. 161   The acting of a magnetic force.

I'm just myself now. Before, I was "acting" male, and it was not convincing to anyone. Now, I don't care if I behave as a female (whatever that might mean), I'm just "me".

People like that a lot more, and I like myself a lot more...and people like that, too.

Then you are a good actress.

Quote from: Tori on January 28, 2012, 11:51:11 PM
I agree acting like a GIRL is WAY over the top... but do you not watch them for pointers?

Why would somebody do THAT?

Also, great voice! Why is your voice work important? Is it not a conscious action?

Of course my new voice was a conscious action, but after a while it's now my normal voice without having to think about it. I relearned my walk too but now never even think about it either. We learned to "sound manly" and "act like a man" or at least I know did. Seems silly to not do what every girl does when they are growing up, watch women and learn from their actions.

Like I said, no one learned to "sit like a lady" in a vacuum, whether it was conscious or not, you learn these behaviors from imitating others be it your father/mother or others. We all are "acting like something" when we are just being ourselves. It's what we chose to learn to be like.

Exactly, Stephe.

I am new here but I suspect the people who'll doubt my thesis are the younguns. They get better results on average from hormones and hormones can do a LOT of the work for them.

Obviously when they hear "acting" they think I mean "pretending".

For the rest of us, passing is playing a part. Just a better part than we played before. One that fits us better. But a mature woman needs to know more skills in order to pass...

Quote from: Tori on January 29, 2012, 01:49:38 AM
Exactly, Stephe.

I am new here but I suspect the people who'll doubt my thesis are the younguns. They get better results on average from hormones and hormones can do a LOT of the work for them.

Obviously when they hear "acting" they think I mean "pretending".

For the rest of us, passing is playing a part. Just a better part than we played before. One that fits us better. But a mature woman needs to know more skills in order to pass...

I do not think you mean pretending. I do not in itself think there's anything wrong with acting like a stereotypical "female". All I am trying to convey, is my viewpoint that 'passing', by which I mean being identified as a member of a particular gender as opposed to being identified as a member of your unidentified gender trying to pass off as the other. I think that the mannerisms side of things is confined to perception of personality, not fundamental gender.

That's probably an overly complicated way to say it. And for the record, voice is IMO one of if not perhaps the most important aspect of passing, and it's something that hormones have relatively little influence in.

The only thing I had to really learn was to remember to sit like a lady.. cross my legs.. especially when wearing a skirt..

I also learnt to walk in heels...  and makeup...


but playing the role came naturally.

"All the world's a stage, and we are merely players..."

Having said that, the word "act" and "acting" implies, in normal usage, a pretense or falsity. In legal and medical terms, it is a non-judgmental term which merely indicates who/what is causing an action.

Rather than insisting that "the other side" change their word usage, let's change what we can--our own perception in this discussion. Let's not get our panties in a wad when the word "act" is used in this thread.

just mho, thx

A lot of feminine behaviours arise from anatomy, my mother and sister can sit in positions that I find almost impossible to copy because their much wider pelvic girdle not only allows them to sit in these positions but to do it comfortably for long periods.   



[EDIT to add]  If something is comfortable then people are going to keep doing what they find comfortable.  As genetic females find certain sitting positions comfortable they keep sitting in those positions and they become codified as 'female' mannerisms.   I can sit for quite a while with one leg over the other like the woman in my avatar, but it is not entirely comfortable as my thighs gently squeeze my testicles if I move.  Women with their much wider hips and absence of penis and testicles find this position very comfortable.  A sitting position that I find comfortable which is the V position where the knees are wide apart looks uncomfortable to my mother and sister.  I don't know how many times they have told me when I am wearing a skirt to 'keep your legs together'.    To be ladylike the thighs must be kept very close together at all times, which I find restrictive and a little uncomfortable simply because my male anatomy is designed to find the open 'V' position more natural.   
My point is that with our male anatomy we are always going to find certain mannerisms behaviours difficult and uncomfortable and what is difficult and uncomfortable will be dropped sooner or later.   E.g I may sit with my thighs and calves together when I am with my sister and mother, but as soon as I go to my own room I instinctively widen my legs as far as my skirt will allow.

@ Bev, thank you for your replies.

The reason I have used that vulgar, three letter word, "act" is to separate conscious behavioral changes from hormonal changes in behavior.

It is a discussion I have not seen on these boards so there was no way I could know how people would react to the topic. I really don't think it is as controversial as many have perceived it to be.

I became an actor because being on stage is great medicine for my disphoria. It is a chance to be someone else, and people pay me for doing it. I've played men, women, animals... etc. and society embraces me. Also, it gets me out of the house and in front of the public.

I will use that word more carefully around here in the future... but sheesh... like Ricky Gervais said, "People take offense, they do not give it." I never in a million years would have posted this in order to offend.

I appreciate your help and participation in this discussion, Beverly. :)

Quote from: Beverley on January 29, 2012, 02:59:13 PM
You are welcome Tori. What sort of stage acting do you do? Are you in any big productions?

Beverley

I love the classics like Shakespeare, Chekhov, Beckett. I love difficult language. I love being able to communicate complex thoughts in old English and still have an audience understand what I am saying and feeling. As you have seen in this thread, words are very important to me. Without using words properly, as they are defined, written communication can get very muddy.

No current projects, aside from my transition.

Shakespearean is not Old English it is actually early modern english. Just sayin'.
Old english is way more complicated.

Yeah, it is a little of both. It was certainly written down in Olde English. The original printings of his complete works were written with the old spellings. Modern versions tend to update the spellings but the antiquated words remain. Nobody has done more to modernize the English language than Shakespeare.

I used to speak some old english. I knew how to say "That's a really hot boy" and Hello and stuff.

Quote from: Tori on January 29, 2012, 06:44:39 PM
Yeah, it is a little of both. It was certainly written down in Olde English. The original printings of his complete works were written with the old spellings. Modern versions tend to update the spellings but the antiquated words remain. Nobody has done more to modernize the English language than Shakespeare.

Tori, I think you are misunderstanding.

Old English (also called Anglo-Saxon) is what Beowulf was written in. It looks like this:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi66.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh248%2Felica7%2FBeowulffirstpage.jpg&hash=eb72b80a3680dd8cdb92d6fc6a066723d004241d)

It's almost an entirely different language. Middle English is what Chaucer wrote in. Example:

Whan that Auerylle with his shoures soote
The droghte of March / hath perced to the roote
And bathed euery veyne in swich lycour
Of which vertu engendred is the flour
Whan zephirus eek with his sweete breeth

Shakespeare is very much Modern English.

Oh Old English, I wish I could speak you.

Quote from: Sarah7 on January 29, 2012, 06:51:15 PM
Tori, I think you are misunderstanding.

Old English (also called Anglo-Saxon) is what Beowulf was written in. It looks like this:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi66.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh248%2Felica7%2FBeowulffirstpage.jpg&hash=eb72b80a3680dd8cdb92d6fc6a066723d004241d)

It's almost an entirely different language. Middle English is what Chaucer wrote in. Example:

Whan that Auerylle with his shoures soote
The droghte of March / hath perced to the roote
And bathed euery veyne in swich lycour
Of which vertu engendred is the flour
Whan zephirus eek with his sweete breeth

Shakespeare is very much Modern English.

I very much agree. But like I said, many old (Middle English) spellings remained through the Elizabethan/Jacobean era (Ye Olde Shoppe). Also, words were pronounced differently, which makes some rhymes sound funny to a modern ear (modern Brits sound nothing like their Elizabethan counterparts).

But we're picking nits. When I first said 'old' English, I meant old as in antiquated (or I would have capitalized the O in old), and I was not exclusively talking about Shakespeare. I am hard pressed to think of an extant Old English playwright. 

So, let me steer this back on topic...

One thing which I think can out a MTF who wishes to pass is posture.

Everybody's posture is different but there are postures that say male and postures that say female.

I have trouble thinking hormones change posture. Clothing can change posture in some ways (heals and corsets... short skirts). Seems to me good female posture requires a bit of conscious thought or effort... no?

What experience in this does anybody have?

Also shoulders. Men keep their shoulders much higher than women. This is not just musculature but that is part of it. I imagine as muscle mass decreases the shoulders will settle a bit but without a slight change in posture a MTF may still carry their shoulders like a guy.

Thoughts?

How 'bout walking. A CIS woman's hips are different so they walk differently than most men. Men can walk like women, and frankly it is more healthy, but men tend to walk each step a bit like a duck to get their musculature behind each step.

Has anybody noticed this and/or done anything about it?

I know this post won't change anything, but I can't help but make it.

All I have left to say or ask.

Is, if posture can cause a failed pass..... does that mean you believe if we took say, Jessica Alba, and had her walk like a man and have muscular posture, she would be read... by... just about anyone with eyes... as a male?

I just don't believe that.

Quote from: Asfsd4214 on January 30, 2012, 12:38:59 AM
I know this post won't change anything, but I can't help but make it.

All I have left to say or ask.

Is, if posture can cause a failed pass..... does that mean you believe if we took say, Jessica Alba, and had her walk like a man and have muscular posture, she would be read... by... just about anyone with eyes... as a male?

I just don't believe that.

Well, in many ways, men have it easier than women when it comes to transition.

Jessica Alba is VERY short to begin with. Posture won't fix that.

I am a short man, and a tallish girl.

But, changing Jessica's posture would make a difference. At the very least, a change in her posture would have people see her as a manly girl (perhaps a lesbian)... if she binded her breasts and wore the right clothes to conceal her curves... hid her hair... etc. she may be seen as a bull lesbian. Add HRT, so she had stubble... and a low voice... she could well be on her way to passing. But I don't think she wants to.

This discussion has been fun. It surprises me that behavior is not on many MtF's radars as something that can REALLY help someone pass. It is free and does not require surgery.

Now that I have answered your question, would you mind answering one of mine from my previous post?

I'm sorry, I didn't see your question, I looked back and couldn't see anything to answer. Let me know what question in particular you'd like me to answer an I'd be happy too.

Quote from: Tori on January 30, 2012, 12:04:31 AM
So, let me steer this back on topic...

One thing which I think can out a MTF who wishes to pass is posture.

Everybody's posture is different but there are postures that say male and postures that say female.

I have trouble thinking hormones change posture. Clothing can change posture in some ways (heals and corsets... short skirts). Seems to me good female posture requires a bit of conscious thought or effort... no?

What experience in this does anybody have?

Also shoulders. Men keep their shoulders much higher than women. This is not just musculature but that is part of it. I imagine as muscle mass decreases the shoulders will settle a bit but without a slight change in posture a MTF may still carry their shoulders like a guy.

Thoughts?

How 'bout walking. A CIS woman's hips are different so they walk differently than most men. Men can walk like women, and frankly it is more healthy, but men tend to walk each step a bit like a duck to get their musculature behind each step.

Has anybody noticed this and/or done anything about it?

Any of the sentences ending in question marks would suffice. ;)

@ Bev

Since I am writing this on my phone, quoting specific points from your post will be more time consuming than simply replying.

That said, you are the bee's knees! And thank you for your thoughtful reply.

Posture is static... sort of. The posture of a Neanderthol man and a Ballerina are both noticeable. But posture is what stays static while the rest of you is in motion. A Neanderthol man is static in different ways than a ballerina... and that stasis maintains through motion. A ballerina's straight back and neck shouldn't change while they leap and dance. I could give a Neanderthol example here but I trust you get the point.

I should have said, "Posture and gesture" as one is active and one is static. Sorry, as a Yank, our use of the word, "Posture" is often incorrect. We speak Amerikun here, not English. ;)

Yes, clothing makes a world of difference. So do breasts. I so want to complain about how sensitive MINE are. Alas. No hormones... yet. But yeah, even without hormones, a MtF can use her breasts (or breast forms) better in order to pass better.

Men's shoulders DO slope more. This is because muscle on men is more commonly visible up the neck. In this case, we are BOTH right.

As for my hip 'generalization'... touché. But remember, skelatal remains are often sexually identified by the hip structure. Young or old (Olde?)... wide or narrow, a woman's hips are different than a man's. Men can, IMO, more easily walk like a woman than vice versa because men can lift their legs from the front, like a woman, and from an angle, like a man. Forgive my generalities about men and women here. Of course I mean MOST men and MOST women, but I don't feel like spending the extra 20 minutes it will require in order to be 100% PC at this hour, while typing on my phone.

I agree about nails and hair. I have gone back to short hair recently and I hate it.

But really Beverly, thank you for all the tips. I will be using them in the future. Also, thank you for participating. As a newbie, I had different expectations about how this particular conversation would flow. You have kept it positive and given it momentum. I really appreciate you rescuing this thread. I wouldn't have started it if it did not mean something to me.

Aloha,
Tori

Bev it is then. Perhaps you should have picked a simpler name, like Tori. Four letters. Hard to get wrong. Your name has THREE E's. Mine has four letters. In this case, I win! "Ha!", I say. Point Tori.

I love how (that) we are a half a world away. I will have my coffee when you go to bed.

Kindly stop taking about your breasts or I will die of envy. Tragically. ;)

Men and women do indeed have much in common. But a woman with child-bearing hips (or as us Amerikuns say, "Bull-legged" hips do not have the glutes close enough together in order to walk powerfully like a man. They can impersonate a man, but the musculature often doesn't quite fit the frame... hormones or no.

A man can walk like most women, even without heals, by simply using the font of their leg in order to walk instead of the side of the leg and butt. Similar? Yes. But different.

Thanks again, BEvErlEyEE,
Tori
;)

Bev,

This is not a contest.

Sincerely,
T

I had to keep my mouth shut instead of making as many dry sarcastic snarks at certain pepole like I used to... It's not that it made me pass any less well but rather this is subtle sexism at work as I began to be seen as a female, What was previously seen as amusing sarcasic cynicism, was instead seen as bitching and moaning and a generally and unpleasant attribute.

A well made point, Pebbles...

Very. Very. VERY well spake.

I do take it to heart... furthermore, I apreciiate how (that) you had the guts to actually type it.

You not only speak about how to 'act' female, you are instructing me and other n00bs as to how to fit in here at Susan's.

But do you not agree this is an act? A sort of Hive Mind? A change in behavior in order to fit in?

Also, thanks for everything Peb, you have been an inspiration figure since I started lurking here. I can't begin to say how helpful you have been by unintentionally informing my discussions with my fiancé.

And thanks again for cutting to the heart of the matter without betraying the woman you are.

Tori

'twas a joke Bev.

You see, since I shortened your name to three letters I signed myself...

Ah, to Hell with it,
T
>:-)

p.s. I hate explaining my jokes.

p.p.s. There is only one letter in my name now. Get it?

p.p.p.s. I hate explaining my jokes.

:)

p.p.p.p.s. Women...  ::)

Quote from: Beverley on January 30, 2012, 06:55:05 AM
Humour is like a frog - dissect it and it dies
George Bernard Shaw (I think)


errr.... you *do* want to be one?

Beverley (name at full strength again)

Yup.

I just had an epiphany or two while talking to y'all tonight. Weather you want to admit it or not you played a part in teaching me how to act my life's role.

Thank you ladies for finally talking to me about this. It has been most cathartic.

I understand that every forum needs its own weeding process, but this was my first thread and it took thirty five years of being the wrong sex to write it.

Running on T is tough. While I wait for properly prescribed hormones, I can still sand the rough edges. Thank you all for your continued help.

As for what I meant by, "Women  ::) ". I suspect y'all know what I meant.

Tori

Quote from: Tori on January 28, 2012, 10:44:46 PM
I agree... but "act" is different than act.

Acting as "you" is still acting.

I want to know about THAT stuff. How do you "act" yourself?

Again, (and I guess I'm hating on the drag queens tonight... I love you ladies!) I am not talking about being TOO feminine to be perceived real. I am not talking about playing a Drag Queen.

Playing yourSELF is as much an act as any other. It just feels right. But it too is an ACT.

I don't believe hormones do it all... conscious thought also plays a part.

Have YOU never made girl faces in the mirror?

I think this clears up your opinion, but if somebody states "we act 99.9% of the time" that tends to be taken as "we pretend to be somebody we're not 99.9% of the time". To me, there are two main definitions of acting - that is to do an action, and the other is to play a role of somebody who is not yourself. I think it's important to make this distinction before anyone else quotes Shakespeare saying "The world is but a stage" etc.

Sometimes we act different in different situations - are we not being ourselves in each of them? Perhaps they are all part of ourselves - the different facets of one person at work, as a parent, as a friend, as a partner. The nebulous concept of "true self" and acting as yourself can become highly subjective and vague - and is it just a binary concept? Are we acting as our true selves or NOT acting as our true selves? Or can we sometimes be in between that? I think that it is possible.

If we take the definition of "acting" as doing an action, and being ourselves as also an "act", then in a way, it is a self-evident statement, because if we do not act, then we are doing nothing - we are inACTive.

Not sure I can offer much, as I'm a bit of a different situation in a number of way, but...

I did shift my posture in how I walk. Not so much to feminize myself, as to just not look so scared all the time. I used to walk with my shoulders up, neck bent, my eyes on the floor, and long strides to keep me away from people. Sometimes I still slip back to old habits when I'm uncomfortable or nervous.

I also went to a vocal therapist for 5 sessions to help me project my voice so I don't sound like a mouse.

Otherwise... my factory default settings seem to be in female range for most things. Occasionally, I consciously act more boyish to match my identity. Somehow I'm more comfortable sitting like a bloke now that nobody sees me as one.

And of course I don't have long hair or long nails or heels or skirts....

Quote from: pebbles on January 30, 2012, 05:49:57 AM
I had to keep my mouth shut instead of making as many dry sarcastic snarks at certain pepole like I used to... It's not that it made me pass any less well but rather this is subtle sexism at work as I began to be seen as a female, What was previously seen as amusing sarcasic cynicism, was instead seen as bitching and moaning and a generally and unpleasant attribute.

I experienced this in the opposite direction. I'm a really quiet person mostly, especially around new people. Before people tended to see me as more nervous, worried, scared, etc. I used to get "are you okay?" or "is something wrong?" all the time. Now I get comments that I'm very together and self-controlled. Silence obviously means very different things in gendered perception.

Quote from: Asfsd4214 on January 30, 2012, 12:38:59 AM
I know this post won't change anything, but I can't help but make it.

All I have left to say or ask.

Is, if posture can cause a failed pass..... does that mean you believe if we took say, Jessica Alba, and had her walk like a man and have muscular posture, she would be read... by... just about anyone with eyes... as a male?

I just don't believe that.

Depends on how close someone is. From a distance "normal" features aren't visible but posture/how they walk and carry themselves is. FFS and perfect skin isn't going to matter 75 feet away.

Quote from: Tori on January 30, 2012, 12:50:39 AM
This discussion has been fun. It surprises me that behavior is not on many MtF's radars as something that can REALLY help someone pass. It is free and does not require surgery.

Seems for some people things like this and voice have no impact on passing, only major amounts of surgery do?  I don't get it..

Quote from: Stephe on January 30, 2012, 01:08:48 PM
Depends on how close someone is. From a distance "normal" features aren't visible but posture/how they walk and carry themselves is. FFS and perfect skin isn't going to matter 75 feet away.

I cannot begin to tell you how true this is. I've passed as female in the dark while presenting male due to posture, word selection, walk, etc. I cannot count the number of times I've seen men checking me out from a distance, and the closer I get, their face turns to dissappointed mush, or how people will open a door for me from a distance and their smile turns into an eyeroll once I get close enough. I've even been approached by guys in straight clubs while presenting male. I've even been ma'amed from directly behind in grocery stores, and from 15-20' by women facing me. Of course being 5'4" and narrow in the shoulders helps with this, but posture can destroy you.

Shoulders back and relaxed, head high, 1 foot in front of the other girls. It makes a world of difference.

Quote from: Assoluta on January 30, 2012, 08:33:22 AM
I think this clears up your opinion, but if somebody states "we act 99.9% of the time" that tends to be taken as "we pretend to be somebody we're not 99.9% of the time". To me, there are two main definitions of acting - that is to do an action, and the other is to play a role of somebody who is not yourself. I think it's important to make this distinction before anyone else quotes Shakespeare saying "The world is but a stage" etc.

Sometimes we act different in different situations - are we not being ourselves in each of them? Perhaps they are all part of ourselves - the different facets of one person at work, as a parent, as a friend, as a partner. The nebulous concept of "true self" and acting as yourself can become highly subjective and vague - and is it just a binary concept? Are we acting as our true selves or NOT acting as our true selves? Or can we sometimes be in between that? I think that it is possible.

If we take the definition of "acting" as doing an action, and being ourselves as also an "act", then in a way, it is a self-evident statement, because if we do not act, then we are doing nothing - we are inACTive.

I see how the word 'act' can cause problems.

One of the first lessons in actor training is learning the definition of the word 'act'.

To a trained actor, acting = doing/being. To much of the audience, acting means pretending. This is why they are in the seats and I am on the stage doing the things my character would do. The audience pretends. They suspend their disbelief and go for a ride. I act.

So, in hindsight, I see why 'act' can be a tricky word.

Quote from: Stephe on January 30, 2012, 01:10:33 PM
Seems for some people things like this and voice have no impact on passing, only major amounts of surgery do?  I don't get it..

Exactly. Behavior that is perceived female is at least as important as a face that through surgery, looks female. Neither is required... and one is much less invasive/expensive than the other. I think many MtF women who wish to pass would save a lot of money and have better esteem if they focus more on the changes they can control.

Quote from: Tori on January 30, 2012, 12:04:31 AM
So, let me steer this back on topic...

One thing which I think can out a MTF who wishes to pass is posture.

Everybody's posture is different but there are postures that say male and postures that say female.

I have trouble thinking hormones change posture. Clothing can change posture in some ways (heals and corsets... short skirts). Seems to me good female posture requires a bit of conscious thought or effort... no?

What experience in this does anybody have?

Also shoulders. Men keep their shoulders much higher than women. This is not just musculature but that is part of it. I imagine as muscle mass decreases the shoulders will settle a bit but without a slight change in posture a MTF may still carry their shoulders like a guy.

Thoughts?

How 'bout walking. A CIS woman's hips are different so they walk differently than most men. Men can walk like women, and frankly it is more healthy, but men tend to walk each step a bit like a duck to get their musculature behind each step.

Has anybody noticed this and/or done anything about it?

I thought I had given my views on your questions, but nevertheless.

In my experience, posture makes no difference in if you are read as male or female, I see it purely as a personality attribute, a weak one at that.

I have not noticed how someone carries their shoulders as making any difference either, again, weak personality attribute.

As for walking, some men walk different to most women. But I have not noticed any significant enough difference in the majority of men or women to feel it's much more than a personality attribute that is unreliable and not used as a way to identify someones gender.

As I said, if you got Obama to walk, carry his shoulders and use a feminine posture, or the reverse in most any women. Or for that matter, even very androgynous people, I don't think it changes how they're ultimately read. I can't speak for everyone, but my brain read's peoples gender based primarily on the sound of their voice, when other cues are inconclusive. Next to that in importance would be face, then body size and shape.

If you want to know the hard truth of my opinion...

I believe that a very large proportion of the transgender population believes in controllable attributes like posture, because they are not passing with less controllable ones.

And again for one of those disclaimers you enjoy, I am not talking about you in particular, I don't know you or what you look like.

But what we want unfortunately doesn't change reality. I wish the reality was that everyone was happy, I wish that everyone could be who they are without fear of discrimination or prejudice. I wish I didn't have multiple sclerosis, I wish I wasn't transgender, I wish the government would stop interfering and regulating in matters I feel they have no moral right to interfere in. I wish bad things didn't happen to good people, and I wish good people didn't feel compelled to do bad things.

I wish this forum would embrace the concept of harm reduction and change its policies regarding self medication.

Unfortunately this isn't a perfect world, virtually none of those things are the way I wish they were, and unfortunately some people don't pass.

My belief is that hormones and voice are the number one controllable influence in a persons passability. And I don't believe the 'way' you speak, the words you use, the way you walk, or any of that, has any appreciable influence. My belief is if you put a cisman in a dress, give them long hair, tell them to walk feminine, and put make up on them, then most people may well refer to them as female. Especially people who's jobs depend on customer satisfaction. But those people are humoring them. They are doing that because they don't want to offend them, start a fight, loose their jobs, believe in their right to identify however they want, etc. But ultimately the majority of people see this cisman as a male wanting to be identified as a female, not as a female.

I believe this because I know a lot of androgynous looking people and I know how my brain works in this regard. And I can only assume most people perceive it the same way.

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe most people would see the aforementioned cismale as biologically female, but personally I doubt it.

Unfortunately in life, sometimes things really suck and there's nothing we can do to change them.

Accept the things we can't change, change the things we can, and know the difference.

I'm tempted to not even post this, and I hope nobody is hurt if I do. If someone gains comfort in something I don't ultimately believe is true (religion), then who am I to change their mind?

Quote from: Asfsd4214 on January 30, 2012, 06:00:11 PM

I believe this because I know a lot of androgynous looking people and I know how my brain works in this regard. And I can only assume most people perceive it the same way.

You can't assume that.

Again my example: this woman I know who is VERY passable visually, has a decent voice, has been on hormone for 6+ years and is post op can be clocked from 50 feet away JUST from how she carries herself. She stands like a guy, walks VERY masculine etc. Maybe it's because her body still shows some manliness that her posture stands out so much? IDK exactly what it is but is just SCREAMS "I'm male" when you see her from a distance. This isn't something that is hard or complex to fix.

I don't think things like posture and ones attitude are important just because "someone isn't passing with less controllable ones". MANY people on these forums seem to believe "If I look female in a head shot, I WILL pass so give me FFS!! Then I'm all done, no effort required on my part" when there is a lot more to it than this. The above example proves to me there is more than just someone looking female to all of this.

BTW I don't wish I wasn't transgender, one more thing you can't assume everyone feels the same way on.

I'm not saying you don't have a right to your opinion, but your post was written based on "I am right and you are wrong, end of argument" style. Life just isn't that simple.

Quote from: Stephe on January 30, 2012, 06:47:57 PM
You can't assume that.

Again my example: this woman I know who is VERY passable visually, has a decent voice, has been on hormone for 6+ years and is post op can be clocked from 50 feet away JUST from how she carries herself. She stands like a guy, walks VERY masculine etc. Maybe it's because her body still shows some manliness that her posture stands out so much? IDK exactly what it is but is just SCREAMS "I'm male" when you see her from a distance. This isn't something that is hard or complex to fix.

I don't think things like posture and ones attitude are important just because "someone isn't passing with less controllable ones". MANY people on these forums seem to believe "If I look female in a head shot, I WILL pass so give me FFS!! Then I'm all done, no effort required on my part" when there is a lot more to it than this. The above example proves to me there is more than just someone looking female to all of this.

BTW I don't wish I wasn't transgender, one more thing you can't assume everyone feels the same way on.

I'm not saying you don't have a right to your opinion, but your post was written based on "I am right and you are wrong, end of argument" style. Life just isn't that simple.

I didn't assume everyone feels that way, you assumed that I assumed that.

Furthermore, I CAN in fact assume that other people feel the way I do when all the information I have leads me to that conclusion. It's an assumption, by its very nature it can be wrong, it is the best answer with the information currently available to me.

I have said from my very first post that these were my opinions, I outright said I could be wrong.

EDIT: Actually I will say one thing, posts like yours are exactly why I believe that people like yourself are in willful denial. I have tried at EVERY point in this thread to make it known that these are my opinions that CAN be wrong, and that I am only giving my views and the ways I formed them. And STILL someone has the audacity to go "wha wha wha I don't agree with you which means you're forcing your opinions on me". So well done reinforcing my viewpoint, nice job breaking it hero.  ;)

Thank you Asfsd for your thoughtful reply. You clearly have reasons for feeling the way you do and who am I to disagree? You feel the way you feel. I am neither offended nor surprised.

It is OK for us to disagree. It does not make me feel less of you.

I am familiar with changing my posture and it does give results... but posture alone will not change how everybody sees you. It can help from a distance as others have said.

Gesture also helps.

So does voice.

So does wardrobe and make-up.

These are all skills of a trained actor.

I often have people who don't recognize me after a show, because I am no longer playing the part they knew me as. These things do make a difference for me.

Drag Queens are another great example (no hormones, no surgery, just a lavish act... yes, most Drag Queens are intentionally over the top (they can go BEYOND passing), but it can alter people's perception in a positive way).

Quote from: Tori on January 30, 2012, 07:37:45 PM
Thank you Asfsd for your thoughtful reply. You clearly have reasons for feeling the way you do and who am I to disagree? You feel the way you feel. I am neither offended nor surprised.

It is OK for us to disagree. It does not make me feel less of you.

I appreciate that, I'm happy to agree to disagee.

Quote from: Asfsd4214 on January 30, 2012, 07:14:53 PM
I didn't assume everyone feels that way, you assumed that I assumed that.

Uh well you said "And I can only assume most people perceive it the same way." I don't think it's an assumption you feel this way given this is what you said.

Quote from: Asfsd4214 on January 30, 2012, 07:14:53 PM

I have tried at EVERY point in this thread to make it known that these are my opinions that CAN be wrong, and that I am only giving my views and the ways I formed them.

You may think this is how your message come across to other people, to me they sound like "I have studied this and I am right".

You can believe that these admittedly small clues are meaningless, but I've seen the opposite in practice.

Quote from: Stephe on January 30, 2012, 08:51:17 PM
You can believe that these admittedly small clues are meaningless, but I've seen the opposite in practice.

I have too.. I've posted a current pic of me in male form and .. I think we can all agree I would never be taken as female in a brightly lit environment while standing right in front of me with no makeup or anything. However every clue I've seen, posture matters as people have identified me as female from afar, even though I am in male form.

There's a TG reality show that was shot in Britain, "My Transsexual Summer". The girl named Karen is a perfect example of how posture will destroy your passability. Granted, she didn't pass well in the face or the voice dept, but if you've seen her walk or stand, you would understand that poor posture and walking will kill any chance that you will pass to others, especially when your body doesn't really match a very feminine build.

Quote from: Stephe on January 30, 2012, 08:51:17 PM
Uh well you said "And I can only assume most people perceive it the same way." I don't think it's an assumption you feel this way given this is what you said.

You may think this is how your message come across to other people, to me they sound like "I have studied this and I am right".

You can believe that these admittedly small clues are meaningless, but I've seen the opposite in practice.

Allow me to clarify, when I said "you assumed I assumed that",  I was referring to your comment that I assume everyone thinks it sucks being trans, not that I assume other people read gender as I do.

I believe it sounded like "I have studied this and I am right" to you, because you took it personally and choose to ignore the, by my count, about 6 times in nearly every post I've made this thread where I have stated that this is purely my opinion.

It's laughable to me that you would assert that I am forcing my views on to anyone. Go back and read my posts.

You have seen the opposite in practice as per your interpretation. I have seen my views in practice in my interpretation of events. For all I know, your friend may be 6'4 and built like a tank, and their voice may be masculine but not to your ears as your mine perceives it. I don't know for sure one way or the other, but your anecdote doesn't really say anything to me one way or the other.

Quote
The girl named Karen is a perfect example of how posture will destroy your passability. Granted, she didn't pass well in the face or the voice dept, but if you've seen her walk or stand, you would understand that poor posture and walking will kill any chance that you will pass to others, especially when your body doesn't really match a very feminine build.

I don't know why I'm even repeating this, nobody has addressed it in my prior posts and likely will ignore it in this one too.

But again I ask... if you took a cisfemale, and had them walk and move like a man, do you seriously believe they would be read as male?

In my opinion, not that me saying that gets noticed either... I think that's delusional.

Quote from: Asfsd4214 on January 30, 2012, 09:35:08 PM
I don't know why I'm even repeating this, nobody has addressed it in my prior posts and likely will ignore it in this one too.

But again I ask... if you took a cisfemale, and had them walk and move like a man, do you seriously believe they would be read as male?

In my opinion, not that me saying that gets noticed either... I think that's delusional.

I noticed. I try to be as fair as possible.

And you have a good point. I think if you took some cisfemales, yes they'd get read as a male. Not every cisfemale is 5'4" and less than 140 with a small frame. At the same time, I am, and I've never been taken as a female.. ever... until I started changing my walk, grew my hair out, and not pushing my shoulders level with my chin.

And if I could ask a favor? I know it can be frustrating to have your point ignored over and over, however I'm not the type to do so. Please do not assume I will unless I actually do :)

Two points

One is people WILL humor you if they think you're trying to portray yourself as one gender even if they read you as another.
The other is a correlation is not in itself a causation.

What happens when you're sitting down somewhere, not moving, what are you read as then? Unknown? Female until you get up and walk?

I have changed my interpretation of someones gender based on a glance based on their voice, and based on their face.

NEVER have I changed my viewpoint because of how they walk or thinking "women don't talk like that".

I just don't believe that's how society works in this regard.

Fair enough points, but I'm sure there are a few cis women out there that walk / talk etc like a male and are read as a male even if they're wanting to be seen as female.

When I'm sitting down? IDK I don't really pay attention when I'm driving, and that's almost the only time I'm sitting down. I have been maamed at a fast food restaurant while my head was down as I was eating. When you're sitting, then it's more about your body shape and hair style if your face is not viewable, so IDT that's really what we're talking about?

As far as trying to humor me? I personally have no experience with that, as I've had zero life experience whatsoever. However, maybe you have a point, but I think the real test is when women share details about certain things, or men start basically ignoring any point you're trying to make. The later might not be reasonable, as men don't take me seriously at work anyways :P

When I say posture etc etc matter, I'm basically refering to those who may be far from the extremely easily identifiable female. There's plenty of cisgendered women that fall into this category and I'm sure posture etc will help. I seriously doubt there is a large percentage of TS that can really spare to not have correct posure if people want to seriously take them as female.

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on January 30, 2012, 10:25:53 PM
Fair enough points, but I'm sure there are a few cis women out there that walk / talk etc like a male and are read as a male even if they're wanting to be seen as female.

When I'm sitting down? IDK I don't really pay attention when I'm driving, and that's almost the only time I'm sitting down. I have been maamed at a fast food restaurant while my head was down as I was eating. When you're sitting, then it's more about your body shape and hair style if your face is not viewable, so IDT that's really what we're talking about?

As far as trying to humor me? I personally have no experience with that, as I've had zero life experience whatsoever. However, maybe you have a point, but I think the real test is when women share details about certain things, or men start basically ignoring any point you're trying to make. The later might not be reasonable, as men don't take me seriously at work anyways :P

When I say posture etc etc matter, I'm basically refering to those who may be far from the extremely easily identifiable female. There's plenty of cisgendered women that fall into this category and I'm sure posture etc will help. I seriously doubt there is a large percentage of TS that can really spare to not have correct posure if people want to seriously take them as female.

Even if that's true, it doesn't change anything.

If you have one way of reading cisgender people and another for transgender people, you have a double standard.
Cispeople don't have one for one and another for the other, they read everyone the same way because by and large they don't know about transgender issues.

I'm assuming passing is passing to people who are cis, not other trans people with different ways of reading people.

If you are so borderline than the way you walk makes a difference, I personally wouldn't consider that passing. But again, just my viewpoint.

I think you are saying much the same thing as others in this thread.

I don't believe anyone has suggested that posture alone = passing.

Like I said earlier you don't have to get 100% on a quiz in order to pass you just have to get enough things right to not fail.

There are many things people do in order to pass. Ironically, SRS is one of the least important things... unless you are a nudist. FFS, voice therapy, self-esteem, hormones, feminine glasses, hair (body, face, scalp), attire, and yes, posture... are all things which can help tip the balance from failure to passing.

To some, passing is not important, to others it is a life goal.

Quote from: Tori on January 30, 2012, 10:57:01 PM
I think you are saying much the same thing as others in this thread.

I don't believe anyone has suggested that posture alone = passing.

Like I said earlier you don't have to get 100% on a quiz in order to pass you just have to get enough things right to not fail.

There are many things people do in order to pass. Ironically, SRS is one of the least important things... unless you are a nudist. FFS, voice therapy, self-esteem, hormones, feminine glasses, hair (body, face, scalp), attire, and yes, posture... are all things which can help tip the balance from failure to passing.

To some, passing is not important, to others it is a life goal.

If it's not important it's not important, I don't think I ever said it 'has' to be important to everyone.

Self-esteem especially and all of the "passing is mental" philosophy is something I very much don't agree with, for the same reasons I've given before.

Your argument seems to lack an example of what you DO think helps someone pass.

Thus, your posts sound a little negative... because I don't recall you actually agreeing with anybody's post in here. You don't have to agree, nor do you have to offer suggestions... it just makes it hard to understand where you are coming from. You have made it abundantly clear what you DON'T think. It can therefore be very hard trying to read between your lines.

I get the impression you may not think anything helps, or that passing is not particularly important to you. This is fine... it just stunts the discussion.

Perhaps you have offered suggestions, but your negations have been so resonant, I have trouble recalling them.

Quote from: Tori on January 30, 2012, 11:05:22 PM
Your argument seems to lack is an example of what you DO think helps someone pass.

Thus, your posts sound a little negative... because I don't recall you actually agreeing with anybody's post in here. You don't have to agree, nor do you have to offer suggestions... it just makes it hard to understand where you are coming from. You have made it abundantly clear what you DON'T think. It can therefore be very hard trying to read between your lines.

I get the impression you may not think anything does, or that passing is not particularly important to you.

You're right, ok, here's what I think some positive things to work on are.

1. Voice, voice is the biggest thing you have a fairly large degree of control over, and it is IMO one of the most important attributes of passing, I think you and I probably agree in this regard.

2. Hormones, not so much what you take or how much you take it, but your blood hormone levels, make sure they're right, this is particularly relevant if you're in the younger age demographic (27 or younger). Testosterone levels particularly. Hormones can do a LOT to help physical passability. Not always, unfortunately not in the older demographic (not that it's not still important, just not as important). Ask for your blood test results and learn about Androgen and its relationship to SHBG and ensure your testosterone levels are within the natel female range. Contrary to the common thinking promoted by this forum, doctors most certainly do make mistakes and don't know everything. You have a right to a second opinion and a right to see your results first hand.

3. This is where things rapidly loose importance, as I've said before I think Voice, face, and body shape are the most important things. Unfortunately body shape is where your options become very limited. You will have a lot more trouble passing if you're over the upper range of average female height (about 6 ft at most). That's not to say you CAN'T pass, but it will make it more difficult, especially at a distance. You can not wear heels, dress to accommodate your figure, but unfortunately options here are getting limited in effectiveness.

Finally, I'm going to bring up voice again, this is not what you say or the words you say but the actual sound of your voice. Shoot to be able to pass over the phone, when you can do that that's a good sign.

Those are my positive options on what you can do to help passing.

>>To OP


I'm kind of hoping after a while I won't have to act.  I realize certain mannerisms and what not clock you as female immediately but I'm already noticing the more i plan on transitioning and thinking about it im subconsciously doing things more feminine rather I mean to or not.  I'll just notice the way im resting my hand on my neck or something while i watch tv, or ive had friends point out " why are you sitting like that?" and etc..  I'm not intentionally making an effort nor do I even care if it does, I just wanna be myself.  I'd feel pretty odd if i just started copying women completely, even if it did help me pass better its just not who I am.  Not that I'm saying there's anything wrong with those who do choose to follow this route, just not for me.  If i pick up some mannerism or I don't I'll be okay.  :)

Quote from: Beverley on January 30, 2012, 06:25:51 AM
It is just not your workplace. I have had the same experience myself. Comments I know I would have got away with as a male drew frowns and disapproval. One woman I know took me to the side and told me (summarising) that if I want to be accepted as female then I need to put up with the baggage that comes with it and that means a different approach to expressing myself. She meant it in the nicest and most helpful way so I thanked her for it and amended my behaviour. It was a valuable lesson.

I have learned that most males will happily ignore women and that we are not 'allowed' to offer opinions or give direction to a male. We can only suggest, request or plead. Anything else puts their back up.


Beverley

As you sleep Beverley, I owe you a reply.

I did not properly reply to this post last night because frankly, it blew my mind. It also touches upon what Pebbles said.

Women often do play a different role than men. This role can be humbling... especially for a MtF who has been accepted as male. There are some perks that come with being the wrong sex. In many ways, I will miss my masculine self. The ability to walk through the scary part of town alone at night. The ability to be a jerk, and yet be met with laughter.

That said, I have said and done things as a man, which have caused problems a woman never would have encountered by saying or doing the same thing.

I was born a female in my mind. But, being a guy does not ALWAYS suck... just most of the time. There are things I will miss.

Instead of being a jerk, I will be seen as sassy or bitchy. I will likely avoid the bad parts of town when I am alone weather I pass or not. I am opinionated. People may ignore my opinions more often.

Your post gets to the crux of this thread.

As always, thank you Beverley.

Tori

Quote from: Asfsd4214 on January 30, 2012, 09:32:08 PM

It's laughable to me that you would assert that I am forcing my views on to anyone. Go back and read my posts.

Well you say "In my opinion, not that me saying that gets noticed either... I think that's delusional." So you say you feel if someone doesn't feel the same way as you do they are delusional. Hun THAT is discounting everyone's opinion other than your own. You can say "I may be wrong" but then 1 paragraph later say people are crazy if they don't think the same way you do.

I have read your posts, maybe you should try objectively reading your own? You come off as a "I know everything, you guys are idiots" type person in your posts here.

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on January 30, 2012, 10:25:53 PM
I seriously doubt there is a large percentage of TS that can really spare to not have correct posture if people want to seriously take them as female.

Exactly the whole point. Clearly you can't have someone like Cindy Crawford stand like a man (only) and her be clocked as one.

All this adds up when the main gender clues aren't clear. Of course some TS's are 100% passable females but that isn't the norm. Most of us need to use all the tools available. Things like voice, mannerisms,  posture hair, clothes etc add up, you get enough check boxs in a gender checked and that's what you are. And personally I don't care is someone is "just being polite", I'm TG and not ashamed of my past. It just is. I do want to be treated with respect and as a woman which I am. I'm not going to spend my time being paranoid about "Do they REALLY think I'm a woman or are they just treating and accepting me as one?"

BTW I can say for a fact anyone who doesn't believe your confidence/attitude matters is delusional :P

Quote from: Asfsd4214 on January 30, 2012, 11:20:24 PM
You're right, ok, here's what I think some positive things to work on are.

1. Voice, voice is the biggest thing you have a fairly large degree of control over, and it is IMO one of the most important attributes of passing, I think you and I probably agree in this regard.

While I agree on the voice being important, there are many times when you never speak. Or if you rely on your voice to pass it's too late by the time you talk. I'm never sir'd on the phone anymore but I'm sure not going to start ACTING like a man again because I think I have this covered.

Say some guys are being you in the mall you in the mall, you're wearing a cute skirt but walking/standing *acting* like a guy. They can't see your face or hear your voice. You think hormones alone will make you pass? Highly doubt that.

Quote from: Haven on January 30, 2012, 11:23:10 PM
>>To OP


I'm kind of hoping after a while I won't have to act.  I realize certain mannerisms and what not clock you as female immediately but I'm already noticing the more i plan on transitioning and thinking about it im subconsciously doing things more feminine rather I mean to or not.  I'll just notice the way im resting my hand on my neck or something while i watch tv, or ive had friends point out " why are you sitting like that?" and etc..  I'm not intentionally making an effort nor do I even care if it does, I just wanna be myself.  I'd feel pretty odd if i just started copying women completely, even if it did help me pass better its just not who I am.  Not that I'm saying there's anything wrong with those who do choose to follow this route, just not for me.  If i pick up some mannerism or I don't I'll be okay.  :)

There is a reason why actors rehearse. It is to make performance effortless. Eventually, you don't have to work at doing something... you just know how to do it.

When an actor is TRYING to act, an audience can tell. When an actor just does things as their character should, no alarms go off.

This can apply this to MtF's as well. Practice makes perfect. If you practice a behavior and you don't like it... don't assimilate it into your role in life. If you don't like it, nobody else will.

You and I are both in the same boat. Pre-HRT. I too have noticed subconscious changes in my behavior.

Even without hormones, I say I am transitioning now. While medicine may not agree with me, my mind does. Simply by choosing to be in transition, my dysphoria has ebbed, and I am happy 90% of the time. This is new to me.

In case you are wondering, no I do not spend my time acting girly while I wait for hormones.

As an actor, we are taught to avoid stereotypes. Rather, we look for the archetype and go from there.

An archetype is universal. If I ask y'all to think of and describe a lion, the things you all agree upon would be an archetypal lion.

To play a stereotypical woman would be too much. Society would likely find offense in your endeavor.

To be an archetypal female is to become your feminine self, this is your feminine neutral. You can add your own personality traits and habits from there and become an honest individual with a chance at passing even without surgery. This is especially important for mature MtF women if they wish too pass completely. A late transition comes with its own benefits and obstacles.

Quote from: Asfsd4214 on January 30, 2012, 11:20:24 PM
You're right, ok, here's what I think some positive things to work on are.

1. Voice, voice is the biggest thing you have a fairly large degree of control over, and it is IMO one of the most important attributes of passing, I think you and I probably agree in this regard.

2. Hormones, not so much what you take or how much you take it, but your blood hormone levels, make sure they're right, this is particularly relevant if you're in the younger age demographic (27 or younger). Testosterone levels particularly. Hormones can do a LOT to help physical passability. Not always, unfortunately not in the older demographic (not that it's not still important, just not as important). Ask for your blood test results and learn about Androgen and its relationship to SHBG and ensure your testosterone levels are within the natel female range. Contrary to the common thinking promoted by this forum, doctors most certainly do make mistakes and don't know everything. You have a right to a second opinion and a right to see your results first hand.

3. This is where things rapidly loose importance, as I've said before I think Voice, face, and body shape are the most important things. Unfortunately body shape is where your options become very limited. You will have a lot more trouble passing if you're over the upper range of average female height (about 6 ft at most). That's not to say you CAN'T pass, but it will make it more difficult, especially at a distance. You can not wear heels, dress to accommodate your figure, but unfortunately options here are getting limited in effectiveness.

Finally, I'm going to bring up voice again, this is not what you say or the words you say but the actual sound of your voice. Shoot to be able to pass over the phone, when you can do that that's a good sign.

Those are my positive options on what you can do to help passing.

Thank you so much for your reply.

1. I agree voice is important.

2. I agree hormones are important. But your suggestion that it primarily helps the young is going to be met with defensiveness by mature MtF women. While there is truth in what you say, people wait to transition for a variety of reasons... and as ciswomen mature, they look more and more manly. To fault a tall, middle-aged MtF woman for being tall and middle aged will likely re-enforce the dysphoria they have struggled with for longer than you or others. Tread carefully. Mature adults have a chance to develop life skills which young'uns don't even begin to perceive. Do not underestimate the ability of a mature MtF female to pass. Also, be careful with their dysphoria. They have suffered enough.

I suspect you can relate on a certain level. And I suspect this is why physical behavior is a topic that seems to bother you.

3. You may not need a step three but many others do... especially if they are tall, matured, and/or have a manly frame.

Quote2. I agree hormones are important. But your suggestion that it primarily helps the young is going to be met with defensiveness by mature MtF women. While there is truth in what you say, people wait to transition for a variety of reasons... and as ciswomen mature, they look more and more manly. To fault a tall, middle-aged MtF woman for being tall and middle aged will likely re-enforce the dysphoria they have struggled with for longer than you or others. Tread carefully. Mature adults have a chance to develop life skills which young'uns don't even begin to perceive. Do not underestimate the ability of a mature MtF female to pass. Also, be careful with their dysphoria. They have suffered enough.

I'm not saying older trans people can't pass, just stating my belief that hormones will not have as much of an impact as a younger person.

Some people can't pass, it's a horrible but unfortunate truth, and normally I wouldn't say it but I've been asked my viewpoint on the matter in response to my more politically correct viewpoints, so I gave it.

Quote from: Stephe on January 31, 2012, 12:13:19 AM
While I agree on the voice being important, there are many times when you never speak. Or if you rely on your voice to pass it's too late by the time you talk. I'm never sir'd on the phone anymore but I'm sure not going to start ACTING like a man again because I think I have this covered.

Say some guys are being you in the mall you in the mall, you're wearing a cute skirt but walking/standing *acting* like a guy. They can't see your face or hear your voice. You think hormones alone will make you pass? Highly doubt that.

I don't doubt it at all. If that were true, women would be getting attacked in the mall all the time. You think if I sent some young woman into the mall and had her walk 'manly', whatever that is, she would be read as male? I don't see it happening, I just don't.

I see it constantly referred to trans people in these hypotheticals, but not cis people doing the same behaviour. Again I think it comes down to a double standard, and baseline passability that the transcommunity believes in which is not in fact very passable.

Additionally, I don't believe in your "too late by the time you talk" mentality. I've had plenty of times where I've seen an androgynous person and thought "I think that's a guy". Then they've spoken and I've instantly changed my mind and not back.

Quote from: Stephe on January 30, 2012, 11:54:16 PM
Well you say "In my opinion, not that me saying that gets noticed either... I think that's delusional." So you say you feel if someone doesn't feel the same way as you do they are delusional. Hun THAT is discounting everyone's opinion other than your own. You can say "I may be wrong" but then 1 paragraph later say people are crazy if they don't think the same way you do.

I have read your posts, maybe you should try objectively reading your own? You come off as a "I know everything, you guys are idiots" type person in your posts here.

I did not say people are crazy, I said "I think that's delusional". I think.

I have read your posts, maybe you should try objectively reading your own? You come off as a "If you disagree with me then you're forcing your opinions on to me and I have no respect for alternative opinions to my own" type person in your posts here.

I have tried SO hard to be respectful and accepting here. But you seem to think nobody has any right to post an opinion you don't like, even if they SAY it's their opinion, and SAY they could be wrong.

You show complete lack of respect of my opinion, and so far are the only poster on this thread who I have disagreed with but have lost respect for as a result.

I may not agree with Tori but at least she has been respectful and managed to conduct herself in engaging in a mature conversation.

This mindset of "you disagree with me which means you can't voice that opinion" is something I hate so much about the very community that is supposed to support us. People like you are why I have such a negative opinion of the transgender community. It's not a community for transgender people, it's a community for people who are transgender and share the politically correct viewpoints of the community as a whole. Any descent in the party line is met with contempt.

Quote from: Beverley on January 31, 2012, 02:38:10 AM
Good morning! Time for a nice green tea and some reading.


Well, it was Pebbles that raised the point, but it is a strong point in relation to this discussion. Whether you pass or not, how you behave determines acceptance amongst both males and females. If you want to be accepted as a woman you better behave like one especially amongst other women.

Why did it blow your mind?


Yes indeed. I have seen girls being laughed at by other girls because "she walks like a man". I have heard them refer to other girls as "a brute" or "blokish". Teenage girls are especially cruel. My daughter has one friend who is nearly 6 feet tall and big framed. She does not walk, she stomps. She little grace in her movements and she does draw looks because she does look strange. Her self confidence is not high and she has not done well at school because she does not like going outside the house. Why? Because of the comments. She has overheard enough of them to know she is seen as blokish and it hurts. She is taunted for nothing more than being alive and not acting feminine enough.

Women do get read as male (see "the lesbian in the ladies' toilet incident (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,112374.msg877253.html#msg877253)").

Beverley

Being mistreated and mocked as being masculine is not the same as being read as male. Posture and mannerisms are personality attributes, and the wrong ones DO get rejection in society, but I don't think they truly get you misread.

She is seen as blokish but do think anyone actually, honestly, thinks she's trans because of it? I tend to doubt it.

Quote from: Beverley on January 31, 2012, 03:06:42 AM
She gets mocked because she sends out masculine signals when she is clearly female. People find the dissonance jarring so they poke fun at her.

People respond to body language. This is not my opinion, it is an established fact in psychology. A huge amount of our communication is based on non-verbal cues, we say a lot without ever opening our mouths. Body language has accents like any other language and the female accent is different from the male. That is why if you look female but send out male signals then you will draw attention to yourself and a large part of passing is the art of never being noticed in the first place.


Of course nobody sees her as trans, that is not the point I was making. I was pointing out that natal women who send out male signals get lambasted, so by extension a transwoman who sends out male signals is also in for a bad day. The same mechanism kicks in - people zero in on anything that does not blend in.

Beverley

Then I think what we have is simply a miscommunication. I'm talking about passing as a member of a particular gender, not about being rejected in certain social circles due to gender-in-congruent personal behaviour. I don't disagree that those behaviours can lead to various forms of social alienation.

I disagree that passing is about not being seen as weird, to me it's about not being seen as an actual member of the gender you don't identify as.

Quote from: Beverley on January 31, 2012, 03:18:47 AM
???

I will have to think about that.

Beverley

Ok that was a horrible double negative way of saying what I meant.

What I mean is, passing, to me, is about being perceived by others as a member of the gender you identify as.
If you have achieved that, it shouldn't matter how you dress or walk or act or your accent. Because plenty of women and men act weird in those ways but aren't misgendered as a result.

If you are so borderline that these tiny things make a real difference, I'm not convinced people aren't humoring you, and that this constitutes passing as I interpret the term.

Quote from: Tori on January 28, 2012, 07:20:47 PM
I am interested in what you all think about gender roles.

What behaviors did you eventually learn you needed to change? How did you go about changing them?

How much conscious thought do/did you put into "acting" female compared to being yourself?

I have noticed my physical behavior changes drastically when I am with people who know I am MtF. I just act more feminine. I don't put much conscious thought into it. Instead, I am often surprised to catch myself making girls sounds or gestures.

I have played a man for most of my life. I have trouble believing that by just being myself I will act completely female.

What have y'all worked on? What do you all consider going too far?

Tori

I don't really consider myself to have "worked" on anything but sensitizing my body. Everything else came naturally. I don't consider becoming a woman to be acting, or pretending. I consider my womanity to be the real thing. I now consider boy mode to be pretending to be someone I'm really not.

Quote from: ~~BebeLyss~~ on January 31, 2012, 04:25:36 AM
I don't really consider myself to have "worked" on anything but sensitizing my body. Everything else came naturally. I don't consider becoming a woman to be acting, or pretending. I consider my womanity to be the real thing. I now consider boy mode to be pretending to be someone I'm really not.

May I ask how old you are? How long have you been on hormones?

This effects my answers.

Quote from: Beverley on January 31, 2012, 02:38:10 AM
Good morning! Time for a nice green tea and some reading.

Well, it was Pebbles that raised the point, but it is a strong point in relation to this discussion. Whether you pass or not, how you behave determines acceptance amongst both males and females. If you want to be accepted as a woman you better behave like one especially amongst other women.

Why did it blow your mind?).

Beverley

I love green tea! I am having some now... even though it is late here.

What blew my mind is simple in hindsight.

OTHER WOMEN enforce this gender role.

I thought it was a male dominance thing.

Nope.

WOMEN embrace it and thrive within it. They CHOOSE to play the part.

That is crazy talk according to my T filled brain.

Hence, "Women ::)".

Quote from: Beverley on January 31, 2012, 05:21:54 AM

Where have you been all your life? :D What happens if, as a man, you act in an unmanly way around other men? Men enforce their rules too - "Take it like a man", or "real men don't cry", or "Stop acting like a bl**dy woman", etc, etc.

All the world's a stage....

Bev

Touché.

Tori

Quote from: Asfsd4214 on January 31, 2012, 02:40:05 AM
This mindset of "you disagree with me which means you can't voice that opinion" is something I hate so much about the very community that is supposed to support us.

Then stop doing it.

I've been living as a trans person for over a decade, I've been living full time "passing" as female for several years, but you discount my opinions and others here because you feel the general public looks at people the same way you, as a TG looks at people? That's just not the reality I have seen in the real world.

I could care less if you respect me or not. This line of nonsense is just another debate tactic to stand firm on your point of view. I'm done playing your little semantics games. I know that -acting- like a woman is part of being a woman in the eyes of other people. You fail to answer even the simplest of questions, (how is a MTF going to pass from behind if they are standing like a guy hence look like a guy? No amount of hormones or voice is gonna make them pass..) then you turn to the redirection nonsense.

Quote from: Beverley on January 31, 2012, 05:21:54 AM

Where have you been all your life? :D What happens if, as a man, you act in an unmanly way around other men? Men enforce their rules too - "Take it like a man", or "real men don't cry", or "Stop acting like a bl**dy woman", etc, etc.

Exactly. Like today I was walking through a busy lobby, several women smiled and said a quiet hello or hi back when I said it to them. Guys nod at me, I look away and give a small smile in return. Turn this around, Guys don't greet each other this way and guys ALWAYS return the head nod. I have NEVER seen a woman do that. Gender specific actions. Ignore this stuff and watch what happens if you look like a woman and return a head nod to a guy. It WILL start mixed signals because that's not how women socially respond.

I know some people want to believe passing as female is as simple as taking some pills, having a bit of surgery and maybe taking a few voice classes online. Good luck in the real world with that!

Quote from: Stephe on January 31, 2012, 05:07:02 PM
Then stop doing it.

I've been living as a trans person for over a decade, I've been living full time "passing" as female for several years, but you discount my opinions and others here because you feel the general public looks at people the same way you, as a TG looks at people? That's just not the reality I have seen in the real world.

I could care less if you respect me or not. This line of nonsense is just another debate tactic to stand firm on your point of view. I'm done playing your little semantics games. I know that -acting- like a woman is part of being a woman in the eyes of other people. You fail to answer even the simplest of questions, (how is a MTF going to pass from behind if they are standing like a guy hence look like a guy? No amount of hormones or voice is gonna make them pass..) then you turn to the redirection nonsense.

The irony here is so funny I'm finding it hard to be mad.

I in fact did answer exactly that question, but apparently it wasn't clear enough...

You don't NEED to pass in that situation, when I see people with an ambiguous body shape from behind my brain doesn't gender them until I see more cues.

Quote from: Stephe on January 31, 2012, 05:14:19 PM
Exactly. Like today I was walking through a busy lobby, several women smiled and said a quiet hello or hi back when I said it to them. Guys nod at me, I look away and give a small smile in return. Turn this around, Guys don't greet each other this way and guys ALWAYS return the head nod. I have NEVER seen a woman do that. Gender specific actions. Ignore this stuff and watch what happens if you look like a woman and return a head nod to a guy. It WILL start mixed signals because that's not how women socially respond.

I know some people want to believe passing as female is as simple as taking some pills, having a bit of surgery and maybe taking a few voice classes online. Good luck in the real world with that!

I live in the real world thank you very much. Are you really so arrogant as to believe nobody can humor you? And I'm not saying they are, but that you don't consider it is pretty interesting.

Come on, head nods determine gender? This is ridiculous. If you want to behave like a parody of women because you, apparently, have believed you have passed for the past "several" (i.e. more than 2) years out of the past "over a decade" (i.e. more then 10), then that's your right to do so. It's my right to believe what I believe too as much as that might distress you.

You're so desperate to play the credentials card? I started passing wearing gender neutral bordering on masculine clothes, walking and talking however I want, within a year or starting my transition. When people see me, they don't know I'm trying to be seen as female... they see my face, body shape, and hear my voice, and work it out. Just like 99.9% of the population.

When people see you, and I'm only speculating here, I could be dead wrong. But I suspect when people see you, IF you in fact don't pass and think you do (and I'm not saying I know that for sure either), they see your exaggerated walking and clothing and make up and know you're trying to pass as female, and humor you.

Again, this is only a speculation, to highlight why I believe the things I do.

But hey, you don't respect my right to voice an opinion, and I guess that's one way we're alike. I don't care.

For the record, since I've been accused, accurately, of being overly negative...

My opinion based on your picture, is that you do pass in the context of that picture (not knowing your height or body shape it's relatively limited information)

I read the thread about your voice, in my opinion your voice does pass for female, however at the moment it is unusual and could provoke attention.

You may well pass in the way I define passing for all I know. What I disagree with is your attitude of "expressing a contrary opinion to me is suppressing mine, so i'll suppress yours!".

I agree Asfsd,

Neither you nor Stephe is going to win in the other's eyes without changing your opinion 180 degrees, and you both are pushing each other's buttons.

You are both right. You are both wrong. You are both pretty.

Um, I might be late to the game on this one, but I wanted to throw in my two cents: I just act like me.  That means that I do the things that I do that fall into the male stereotype and the things that fall into the female stereotype.  They're just me being myself.  My mom is a tom-boy.  My step-mom is a girlie girl.  I've known genetic girls who have been more masculine than me, and genetic men who are more femme than me.  I think what finally made me realize that I should just do what feels natural, regardless of my presentation, is when my gf (at the time) told me, "I gotta drain the lizard."  No one would question that she's a woman(she's cisgen).  Why should they treat me any diff?  I mean, she's not under a microscope as much as I am, since I'm trans, but at the same time, I don't want to suppress a different part of myself for other people.  I've already been doing that for years - I'm done with that ->-bleeped-<-.  I want to be me, whatever amalgamation of masculine and feminine characteristics that is.

Being yourself is admirable.

As this thread has progressed I've learned a lot.

Forgive me if I change my thesis from time to time, it is because I am assimilating and learning.

I think being your female self differs from being your male self. Both are honest. Both are different.

If I made you act like the man you were, would you honestly act the same way you do now?

Thank you for your input. It means a lot to me.

Quote from: Asfsd4214 on January 31, 2012, 08:36:42 PM
If you want to behave like a parody of women because you, apparently, have believed you have passed for the past "several" (i.e. more than 2) years out of the past "over a decade" (i.e. more then 10), then that's your right to do so. It's my right to believe what I believe too as much as that might distress you.

Sorry but your personal insults don't distress me.

What you're posting here is beyond "personal" opinion. It's turned nasty, negative and personal.

Yes it has. So kindly both, take it to PM... or at the very least, keep it out of this thread.

I am not a babysitter... or at least, I don't do it for free.

Stephe, I agree with your points. Asfsd does not understand what DECADES of being male can do to the psyche. But how can she?

Kindly, let bygones be bygones in this thread.

You feel personally attacked by a moderator. I understand completely.

But let her be. There are bigger fish to fry.

Quote from: Tori on January 31, 2012, 10:38:14 PM
Yes it has. So kindly both, take it to PM... or at the very least, keep it out of this thread.

I am not a babysitter... or at least, I don't do it for free.

Stephe, I agree with your points. Asfsd does not understand what DECADES of being male can do to the psyche. But how can she?

Kindly, let bygones be bygones in this thread.

You feel personally attacked by a moderator. I understand completely.

But let her be. There are bigger fish to fry.

I'm a moderator? I was pretty sure I was bordering on being banned these days, lol.  ;D

You're right, this discussion between her and me has long ceased to be constructive, I won't pursue it with her further.

I was afraid such a thread might possibly take an ugly turn, that's why I stopped participating  :)  I would however suggest that everyone keep a bit more civil tone before a Mod decides to get involved  8)  Much more fussing about and I guaranty this topic will be locked

Take a break, find something more constructive to do with yourselves  :)

Quote from: V M on January 31, 2012, 11:15:42 PM
I was afraid such a thread might possibly take an ugly turn, that's why I stopped participating  :)  I would however suggest that everyone keep a bit more civil tone before a Mod decides to get involved  8)  Much more fussing about and I guaranty this topic will be locked

Take a break, find something more constructive to do with yourselves  :)

Thank you V M.

Quote from: Beverley on January 31, 2012, 05:21:54 AM
;D


Where have you been all your life? :D What happens if, as a man, you act in an unmanly way around other men? Men enforce their rules too - "Take it like a man", or "real men don't cry", or "Stop acting like a bl**dy woman", etc, etc.


All the world's a stage....

Bev

Well, I have never been a part of the other club. I learned from males (and what do they know?). I have never been welcomed in the VIP (Very Important Princess) Room.

You make sense. It is just paradigm changing.

I am an only child. My grade school class averaged 3-4 females per year. I was not inundated by females until after puberty and by then, I was NOT part of the club.

Thanks Beverley,
Tori

To answer your question...I would be suppressing more of myself.  There were things that I wouldn't do or say as a male - and the funny thing is, they tend to be the more offensive stuff.  I have no prob grabbing a girl's ass(a friend, not a stranger) as a joke now, but before, I was afraid of being perceived of as "that guy."  I'm not "that guy" - I'm "that girl." :)  I didn't have tats or piercings - I never wanted guy ones.  I have two tats, with two more on the way, and three piercings now(one being my navel).  I guess for me, transitioning doesn't feel so much like I'm killing the old me - I'm adding on to the old me.  Like I've heard a lot of transgirls say, "::insert previous guy name:: acted like this."  I don't say that - I'll say, when I was on T, or when I was a guy - something like that.  That feels more right in my case.  YMMV.

Quote from: Tori on January 31, 2012, 09:33:47 PM
Being yourself is admirable.

As this thread has progressed I've learned a lot.

Forgive me if I change my thesis from time to time, it is because I am assimilating and learning.

I think being your female self differs from being your male self. Both are honest. Both are different.

If I made you act like the man you were, would you honestly act the same way you do now?

Thank you for your input. It means a lot to me.

Thank you for your replies.

I have a kind of embarrassing and exciting post to make. 

My fiancé took me panty shopping today. OMG! How uncomfortable! I would have died without her.

There I was, my fiancé looking through racks for me (I was afraid to be seen getting my man germs on somebody else's potential skivvies), watching as she looked. I was completely afraid to offer my opinion. Eventually, when nobody else was around, I suggested something simple and utilitarian (Ha! Just like a guy!). Much of what I saw was just too girly. It would remind me of what I am, not who I wanted to be. Finally, she showed me a pair, just as a ciswoman started to browse the same isle (eek!). I said, "OK, let's go!" (just like a typical man). 

We got in line, and finally, to the register. My gal handled the transaction. After the panties were purchased, I wanted to carry the bag, but then I thought that may be deemed weird. So, I waited for my fiancé to take the bag, and we walked out together.

I certainly was not acting like myself in the store.

But hey, I went panty shopping today! I survived!

It was a huge step... even though I did not feel free to act like myself (mental hang ups). Ciswomen would not have the difficulties I had today.

But hey, I went panty shopping today! I survived!

Congrats on surviving the pantie purchase  :laugh:  It is a big step though

I remember when I started buying my own undies, I was so very nervous and would find myself making up various lame excuses as to why I was buying women's underwear  :)  After awhile I started to notice that the checkers and clerks didn't really give a snick and were often happy to help

Now that I know my size I generally buy online anymore, mainly for the convenience  :)  Mostly I just get basic everyday wear stuff, but I have gotten a few cheeky fancies

Just wait til she takes you to Victoria's Secret for a bra fitting  >:-)

Y'all are very brave.

I think I will wait a bit before my bra fitting. Before I measure my ladies, I want some ladies to measure. ;)

It is amazing how WE can be our biggest obstacles... even when we do things we've long dreamed of doing.

*Blush... I may be a little self-transphobic.

Dearest Beverley,

I can see it getting easier.

You better believe I was not in character. I don't even have a costume yet!

You can't play the part without the items you need. ;)

Moving slowly, but moving in the right direction,
Tori

Why panties? You could just start with buying some normal clothes, it might be less embarrassing... It's not like anyone is gonna see your underwear lol  ::)

Quote from: pretty on February 03, 2012, 04:07:54 AM
Why panties? You could just start with buying some normal clothes, it might be less embarrassing... It's not like anyone is gonna see your underwear lol  ::)

I will. ;D

Panties are a personal thing. My fiancé made a huge gesture in helping me shop for them.

It is a small psychological step in the right direction for both of us.

@ Beverley

I wish...

I live on a tropical island and I work in the sun. Body hair serves a purpose. It helps me present as male, and it protects my skin by offering a modicum of shade.

It is so warm here, even in Winter, that I don't have the option of covering up. My unform is a male swim suit and a shirt.

Best to wait for a medical diagnosis before publicly playing the part. Without said diagnosis, 'odd' behavior on the job (waxing all my body hair) could send mixed signals. I want to stay below the radar until I have the protection a diagnosis can provide.

In America, job = insurance. Insurance = hormones.

I can remember when I first started buying my feminine clothing, I was very self conscious about it.   Now I feel very comfortable buying bras and panties and feel very uncomfortable in the men's section.   It takes time and for me its been 13 years to accept to that I am female and bras and panties are my normal clothing and since I cannot control what other's think.   Who cares?   I must foot note that I am 65 and with each day being who I am is more important because at 65 even if I live another 30 years I am at death's door.   I have also learned over time that the other's in my life wish only to be themselves and yet they want to deny my right to do so.   I am a transgender female and there is nothing wrong with that.   There is no supernatural committee denying my right to be female only ignorant individuals who need to mind their own business.

I know this attitude is the advantage of being older and having paid my dues.   But give yourselves time transgender woman, you to will arrive at this attitude it took me at least 64 years to do so.

Michelle,

You are a sweetheart! Thank you so much for your input.

I am a fan of actor training. It teaches you to be YOU.

If you don't know yourself, how can you play anyone else?

I know who I am... and my brain is on the wrong hormones.

I am a woman.

Do I need to act like a woman? I dunno. I may be fine being my male self on the outside and my female self inside... but somehow I doubt that.

But this is not a race either. I will not kill myself just because I may not pass tomorrow. In fact, the very decision to transition has cured my dysphoria for the last few weeks. Moving TOWARDS femininity and BEING female is good medicine. Then therapy (Very soon!). HRT will come later. HRT will likely he good medicine too. Then presenting. Then passing.

This is NOT a race, it is a progression.

Every girl grows up,
Tori

As usual, I wake up in the morning and find that my thinking has been backwards all these years.   Since I was very little I was a female trying to act like I was male because I was trying to please others because they believed that I was male just because my body was.    I tried and tried to be male and get their approval.   But really I was like any child a child in motion and loved the outdoors and  not wanting to displease anyone did coming from a family know for thinking about life did not really come into conflict with their image of me until puberty set in.   My father was on his death bed and I desperately wanted to be female and started to fantasies about all of the ways my body could become female without really knowing what that meant physically.

To make my point at 65 I am realizing that I no longer care or about maintaining that fiction about me in any sense being male and my acting career as a male has been over for a long time and now I have to be my female self no matter how it displeases people and it doesn't matter to me what kind of a female people think I am.    I can't control their thinking.   I have to let my femaleness come out and refuse to let people put me in a male box.    I have really been trying to pass as a male and I have been a failure.   If people want to think that I am just a very effeminate male then so be it as long as I am placed in the female category where I belong what difference does it make.    If God and life bring hormones and surgery my way I will embrace them happily, but for the time I have left it doesn't matter because in old age I have to be my effeminate self and that femaleness will mask to some degree all of my male physical features.

Its like the guy on Dancing with the Stars who had part of his face and body burned while in the military on the battle ground.   His personally shined through so much it was impossible to notice his scars.   He did so much to change all of us.   I have to be like him and just let my femaleness shine through and let the bigots be bigots.   

I must also admit that I have never had therapy for being transgender, but I have tried it for depression and anger management but some how the therapists always seemed to make it about something else. 

My anger management became about my ex's feelings because I let her in hoping her insight would help me but my therapy became about my ex's feelings and what ever was troubling me was forgotten.

  And lately here my therapy lately about depression and anxiety just me talking with the therapist without her asking me anything.   Then she said i was ok and come again to the same thing over and over.   Do I need this?  No.

By nature I am not suicidal even through being suicidal runs in my family.   With my religious views I don't see the point of suicide.  When you die you just move on to another world of God and have to deal with that existence in the same mixed up state you left this one.   So the only choice for me is life here now until my time is up and life in the next world in some spiritual state or other. 

And I have seen in my family where anger and resentment is deadly and do not wish to end in that state so my goal is to be happy.    Again if counselling happens for me in a way that really helps me deal and understand I will accept it, but I don't need anyone's seal of approval because I am female rather the approve or not and that's just my life.

I know in therapy I need to provide my own insight with guidance, but I do not need is to talk for an hour aimlessly and be told I am ok.   Come again.   I am not afraid of myself or afraid of life nor am I aware of any deep dark areas of psychosis in the far reaches of my mind.   I am just emotionally tired from years of dealing with the emotions and rationalizations of children having taught for over thirty years and still being involved in raising teenagers I consider my own and my own eight year old son.   But that's just life and there is no pill to give children that will make them live a rational life these days.   So I just deal, because life sometimes is like walking through a Dakota blizzard,  you just rap up warm covering all of your body and walk straight to safety because if you ever stop you are dead.   Growing up in the Dakotas this has become a habit and second nature for me.   So God if I need therapy please send me one that is really helpful and not just there to listen, nod their head, and say Sounds good, come again if you need to.

I have been testing some of the theories people have offered in this thread and have been getting mixed results.

I have been visiting various online chat groups. The more feminine I act, the better I am treated and the better I treat others. When I act like myself (which is not exactly the same), I feel liberated, strong, and dare I say euphoric. It is rather intoxicating because I am not used to feeling that way. Ironically, I have a great deal of trouble fitting into the online TS community when I act this way (Bull dyke in a china shop). I see why I don't fit in. I also see the community subtly nudging me to act more female... because I am quite overbearing when I act like myself.

Quote from: Beverley on February 09, 2012, 01:36:10 PM

I am not clear what you mean here, but it has hints of being quite intriguing. Can you expand on it?

Beverley

Well Beverley,

There has been much discussion in this thread about acting female versus acting like yourself.

After reading "Passing Glances" which is full of interesting advice,  http://superliminal.com/melinda/passingglances.htm (http://superliminal.com/melinda/passingglances.htm) , I was inspired. The author talks about behavior in much the same way I have in this thread. She uses theatrical terms correctly.

In it, the author suggests using chat rooms and video games to test how feminine others think you really are. This was an interesting suggestion. Social media is cheap and you can try it from the comfort of your home. Since I had a remarkable FOUR days off this week, I got to work.

I have not yet been outed on any social sites yet. People are comfortable with my presence when I play a woman.

When I let my hair down at the end of the day, and chat as my outed self here at Susan's, I feel happy and at home yet I can see it taking its toll on the other members (not all of them).

This is not a scientific study by any means... still, my only smite has come from the TS comminy, when I was being my truest self (something many have suggested I do in this very thread).

It is fascinating to me that I have passed so easily on non-TS websites. Without having to worry about looks or mannerisms, passing can be fairly simple. Still, I have not dared try any female only sites. 

Sometimes we talk about 'acting female', but it's not about 'female' but 'acting feminine' - but that's not why we transition, not really, is it? We can act feminine and still be male - it's about that fundamental need to be female and be perceived as such, whether that be a butch masculine dyke or a femme lady.

QuoteWhen I feel happy, people around me do not. When I behave like my normal dysphoric self, the people around me seem more happy.

I've noticed this too - people don't tend to be unhappy because I'm happy, but it just seems for unrelated reasons other people have problems when I don't, and vice versa - maybe it's a perception thing, or a social dynamic that occurs.

Quote from: Assoluta on February 09, 2012, 04:27:38 PM

I've noticed this too - people don't tend to be unhappy because I'm happy, but it just seems for unrelated reasons other people have problems when I don't, and vice versa - maybe it's a perception thing, or a social dynamic that occurs.

Probably is mostly a perception thing. When you have problems, you are more focused on those than you are on problems others may be having and when you are ok, then you take more notice of what's really going on outside of your own space.   

Great post assoluta!

I have a theory about the good mood thing. I am so rarely happy, I am not very well practiced at it. Others are not used to seeing me that way either so it can cause social awkwardness on both sides. If there is truth to my theory, there is motivation to practice being happy.

Quote from: Zarania on January 28, 2012, 07:31:34 PM
acting = fake

just be yourself, don't act in a certain way, just because society declares it to be "female".

Agreed.
But I myself have been considering this as well in myself. I feel like a women, but do other people feel it to?
Does it matter? I think it depends on the person, changing the way we act and behave isn't always like putting on a costume, but can be like freeing yourself from a very dark cage.

@ Jaime - I think that is an excellent point.

@ Torn - Well said. That is very similar to what has been going through my mind lately.

What feminine behavior will help me fit into my role in life and what will feel like selling out? The answers differ from person to person.

I have always had a big personality. Extroverted. I can't stop being that if I try. That aspect of my self knows no gender... yet it is often viewed as masculine behavior... and T does seem to add fuel to the fire.

Maybe it's more like the female stereotype tends toward considerate, polite, meek demeanor and the male stereotype tends toward brash, brazen, dominator behavior?  But it's not that any of these behaviors really have a sex or gender.  Either sex can be an ->-bleeped-<- and either sex can be a sweetheart.  If your personality tends toward ->-bleeped-<-(just theoretical here - not saying anybody's on here does), then people's minds may go toward male, because that's the stereotype that they adhere to.  If you act sweet, they think female.  If I didn't have a pic up, and didn't indicate my gender, how would I be perceived on here?  I'm just being me - it matters little to me if others perceive my personality as woman or man(I have trouble connecting personality with male or female, since personality is psychological and male/female is biological).  It's my presentation in person that determines if I'm man or woman - the social aspect of sex(i.e. gender recognition).  THAT is crazy important to me - I'm a woman and want to be perceived as such.  If I succesfully convey that to the viewer, then I can be as much of a dick as I want and I should still be a woman to them.

@CJ

Your post strikes a chord. I do have the fun ability to be a jerk, and be loved for being one (I blame the Irish blood). It is a perk of being me.

I tend to be much more polite online, when I wish to be seen as a woman.

What you say about personality certainly rings true.

As for social recognition, that can really depend on physical and vocal behavior.

Social recognition is important to me right now (subject to change).

Thank you for your post.
:)

I'm always a bit confused about how some behaviour is perceived as gendered?

I'm autistic, usually very shy and quiet but somethings I can't help it but I start to talk and talk and talk... totally dominating the conversation. This is usually perceived as an extremely "male" quality in people with autism.

And I think... wha? No, it's not?

Because what I'm doing is the same to what the "Ally McBeal" character was doing? There are many women who, when fired up about something, will speak very very very fast, not allowing for a pause, not letting anyone else have a say until they are done speaking.

In my experience most normal men that aren't even able to process language that quickly let alone speak at that speed?

Or take computers? You don't need muscles to program a computer? Your do need to be able to handle language very precisely with all it's meanings and nuances. Work very cleanly, you can't mess things up, you need to clean up after yourself. You also need to be able to multitask and communicate with other people. If anything, programming should be considered women's work! (And in many countries it is!)

So in the end, it's all about perception and social and cultural context, how someone either fits or doesn't fit within the  common narrative?

I am starting to view feminine behavior like cosmetic surgery. Some people need it to pass, others use it to feel better about themselves. Some don't need to deal with it because they don't care. Some don't need to deal with it because their natural behavior before transition was so feminine, society saw them as gay men.

This thread's discussion has been very fascinating to me.

I am a lesbian. Transition is important to me, as is being socially accepted as my true gender, but it is not vanity which is governing my desires. Acting über-girly and having every cosmetic surgery on the books are not high on my checklist... although most every woman likes to feel pretty from time to time.

For now, walking is my favorite project. A good tuck does much of the work a woman's wider hips can do. It is simply more comfortable to swing your hips around the tuck with each step.

Voice training? Hard. It is so easy to be critical when you are listening to yourself. Also, it is easy to worry about who else might be listening.

A walk is more of a feel thing.

I can imagine hair removal also helps.

Not really "on topic" but I'm trowing it out here anyway: I often feel like I'm "acting male"? Just pretending learned masculinity.

I'm even worrying that my natural femininity might be leaking out somehow and this makes me both happy and sad... leaving me completely confused.

Quote from: Artemis on February 11, 2012, 06:06:10 PM
Not really "on topic" but I'm trowing it out here anyway: I often feel like I'm "acting male"? Just pretending learned masculinity.

I'm even worrying that my natural femininity might be leaking out somehow and this makes me both happy and sad... leaving me completely confused.

I always wondered that myself.  As a male I'm not really sure what behavior one could imitate to act like a man.  The only one I can really think of is to not walk with your hips like women do.  A lot of the people i see suggesting " Act manly, take charge be agressive!" is bad advice in my opinion.  I'm one of the manly bros in my social group and at college and I don't do any of that.  Hell, the people who do that are usually hated for being ->-bleeped-<-s. 

Quote from: Beverley on February 11, 2012, 03:22:00 PM
Voice training can be a 'feel thing' too.

The other thing I have noticed is my adams apple has all but disappeared when I talk. Moving you're voice into your head does this.

Quote from: Haven on February 11, 2012, 06:45:38 PM
I always wondered that myself.  As a male I'm not really sure what behavior one could imitate to act like a man.  The only one I can really think of is to not walk with your hips like women do.  A lot of the people i see suggesting " Act manly, take charge be agressive!" is bad advice in my opinion.  I'm one of the manly bros in my social group and at college and I don't do any of that.  Hell, the people who do that are usually hated for being ->-bleeped-<-s.

Having played many male characters on stage, there is a of behavior to choose from.

But yeah, I am me. I can act more masculine or feminine... and both serve a purpose... we act a part to fit a social role.

I used to always sit with my legs crossed until people started making fun of me a few years ago, so now that I'm less insecure I've been trying to get used to doing that again. Other than that, though, the bull->-bleeped-<--ness of gender roles works both ways, so if I happen to act like a stereotypical man in some way, so be it.

@ Beverley and Stephe,

I do hear progress in my voice but good heavens! There is SO much work to be done.

I can only work for an hour or so at a time then I need to rest. Still have not yet settled into the sweet zone.

Very weird stuff. This is quite different from theatrical speech and voice work. The resonance is different, the muscles you use. I will be able to add some of the theatre stuff back once I settle in to the proper range.

Then there is what I like to think of as the female dialect. Women use different words and a LOT more inflection. It is not just a pitch thing.

It is hard work. Fortunately I have found some decent sources of information.

Thank you both for your suggestions and encouragement,
Tori

Quote from: Lyra Dash on February 11, 2012, 08:23:55 PM
I used to always sit with my legs crossed until people started making fun of me a few years ago, so now that I'm less insecure I've been trying to get used to doing that again. Other than that, though, the bull->-bleeped-<--ness of gender roles works both ways, so if I happen to act like a stereotypical man in some way, so be it.

I have sat that way forever. It is how my grandpa sat. Comfy.

There is a saying: "Express, don't Impress!"

If you EXPRESS yourself – your own inner female - you be right on target.
If you try to IMPRESS some feminine version of who ever --- you will fail.
In fact you will become a parody.

I'm often startled by some of my own moves and actions which come automatically by now - yet are so not 'male'.

It seems to me there is still this body-memory, of what moves are 'not allowed' in presenting male - unless you will come across like a fem-gay-male, which I'm not.
It is/was MOST noticeable, ALWAYS was so when I was dancing - on my own. The message was: "can't do this, can't do that, make it more butch, must make it more butch, you look like a Queen STOP THAT, etc. etc"

Your body will have been absorbing loads of those messages - so you may simply be underestimating it's retention effect.
It's quite easy to say act like YOURSELF, if you been doing quite the opposite for years on end.
Oh, and it happens to females just the same BTW!
Why is it that some people just can't dance? Women too! Acting like a bag of potatoes.
Fear of ridicule be MY first guess.
It is fear of ridicule that will hold you back, also in EXPRESSING your real self.

It is mostly peer pressure and parents that plant those seeds of fear of ridicule preventing you from Expressing your real self. So we try to IMPRESS... rather then EXPRESS.

And as always ---- YMMV

:-)
Axélle

Quote from: Beverley on February 12, 2012, 04:04:36 AM
You are quite right about inflection and dialect.

One of the other big things is breathiness or what I think of as smoothness. Male speech is very staccato. Men often will breath several times in one sentence. Female speech "flows". Also there is a choppy harshness to the start of words, especially consonants. Like if a guy says "Ah ha" the start of the "ha" has a sharp H. A female voice has a softness to the start of the H sound. It's subtle but if you listen to female voices this is almost universally true. I can't even make the sharpness there now if I try but it used to be very pronounced.

This is all subconscious learned behavior and repetition makes it change. I do NOT agree that unlearning our male speech patterns and mannerisms is "a parody" or "an act". For me now speaking like a guy would take a forced effort. Same with walking or sitting etc. Sure you -could- go over the top like a flamboyant gay man might present or speak in some horrid falsetto voice but no one is talking about that. All I've done is study how women talk and act where I live and tried to incorporate that into my life to blend in more.

Sure you could just "be yourself" to be "real" but if that belief is based on that no behavior is learned and it all comes from within, explain how we talk at all? I guess "letting our female self out" will magically change our speech to sound female? Is speech some hard coded thing we don't have to learn?  Of course not.  I don't see how it is somehow a parody of a woman to relearn things we learned when we were trying to fit in as males, which many of us did for at least some of our lives until we finally figured out that was pointless. If you have always lived as a woman since birth, than clearly you wouldn't have this issue.

I get what you both are saying Axelle and Stephe.

Playing a parody or a stereotype can lead to trouble.

Yet it seems many people in this thread aknowledge needing to act differently in order to fit into society as a female rather than a male.

Stereotypes are bad. Trained actors are encouraged to avoid them because an audience won't believe a stereotypical character is real.

What I am looking for is the female ARCHEtype. Archetypal female behavior is what society generally agrees is female behavior. Sure, a woman CAN sit wide-legged with her arms rested across the top of a couch but society will see her as sitting like a man. Bea Arthur's voice was abnormally low and often compared to a man's...

Anything a FtM woman can do to fit within the societal, archetypal mold should help them pass... especially if they are not a perfect 10 in the looks department.

@Beverley,

Yes, I am finding my range... just not used to being so musical with my tone up there (or in my natural vice for that matter)... that will take some time and practice. Interesting point on contractions.

Fortunately, I am practiced in moving my larynx. Nice tip!