If you met a person who had a mustache and a goatee and ID'd herself as a transwoman, how would you react? And I am not referring to someone who is PRE-transition,this is someone who is supposedly presenting as female.
I'd say I was glad to meet her and ask where we wanted to go for lunch ;D
Seriously, it doesn't bother me at all, how someone identifies on an internal level and their external presentation are two different things. I've met a woman who happens to have a beard, and zie was a really cool person.
Zythyra
Ugh!!! >:(
I think I would be fascinated and want to get to know this person better. I certainly am not qualified to judge her and wouldn't presume to do so.
I would be most interested in her motivations and why she would be willing to pay the steep social price, that she probably can't avoid paying, simply to keep some facial hair while otherwise presenting as female. I mean, where can such a person go to the bathroom, for instance. And how is she accepted by family and co-workers when she is so adamant about breaking our cultural rules of gender?
Live and let live is my decision and I'd be very curious.
hugs & smiles
Emelye
Quote from: Ashley Michelle on August 05, 2007, 10:16:20 AM
a little 5 o'clock shadow is understandable, but are you talking about like a grizzly adams beard or a fu manchu or something?
that doesnt fit my image, personally, but then i feel the same way about hairy legs or sleeveless tops with pits that look like old-growth forests.
i guess i would be somewhat skeptical as to their sincerity...maybe because i put so much time and effort into my presentation myself.
other than that, meh, if thats what they want to do, then whatever.
BTW I meant this person is not PRE-transition (real or imagined) AND has a fully developed mustache and goatee, not a shadow.
Another question is, if there are functions that are restricted to women only, should a person like this be granted access?
I think she's asking for a lot of pain if she's asking for people to validate her internal feeling.
I also don't think any women in the world will feel comfortable with such a women in the women's restroom, the men's restroom it is.
She's deliberately trying to offend people's sensibility; its not just gender smender in this case. Most men in the world don't even wear moustache or beard (and even less both together), so she's trying for who knows what.
But, if she can live with the pain of nobody treating her like a women, hey, whatever floats her boat is fine with me. She's clearly doing a genderf**k if you ask me.
Our society has a certain level of expectation for what females should look like and how they should dress. Unfortunately, an individual who can not or will not meet this minimal level of "dress code" will be shunned. It is not a matter of choice for the observer necessarily, it is what is expected.
There are rare cases where native females have facial hair. How do you think society treats these individuals? That's right, like men.
Facial hair is considered an exclusive male trait in our society and there's no changing it.
I would expect someone with facial hair to use the men's restroom for simplicity's sake. Personally, I don't care all that much about restrooms. They have separate stalls and that's enough privacy for me.
For other "functions"... I can't imagine too many things where women only should be granted access. We worry too much about integration of the sexes in our society.
On a personal level, I would feel quite uncomfortable around someone like this at first. I'd have to get to know someone before my comfort barriers could be lowered.
Cindi
I'd say hell no. Make an effort! If your are gonna talk the talk you need to walk the walk!
Because a REAL woman never has any facial hair whatsoever.... ::)
What honestly gives you the right to discount someone on the basis of their....facial hair? I mean...really...how silly is that? It's amazing to me how much understanding and acceptance you can ask from people on the one hand, and then turn and throw it in someone else's face(literally) with the other. What gender you are doesn't make you more or less of a person. And certainly how close you are aligned to stereotypes with that gender don't make you more or less of a person, deserving of more or less of mine or anybody else's respect and understanding.
News flash: real women are not Barbie dolls.
Sarah, in this case, its not just a little hair you remove once in awhile, its a full beard and moustache!!
Even women with hirsutism rarely have that in any measure or form, and if she had it (one in a million), she'd try to hide it.
My friend's wife had an hormonal inbalance which gave her a quite dense beard under her chin (thankfully, her hair is red, so it wasn't as bad as black); got electrolysis on it too.
For FTM, the beard is the main thing that enables them to pass as male. So, like I said, she's asking for A LOT, if she's asking others to validate her internal feelings.
My own experience with GID tells me that I could not stand at all to have any hair on my face and plucked my very very dense beard away; so, not sure what kind of dysphoria that person could have that makes her comfortable like that. My feeling is that she doesn't have social or physical dysphoria, no GID at all
Keira, you can't presume anything. I don't know if you're talking about an exact real person, or just making one up, but you really don't know the story behind having the beard or mustache vs. not. You can't learn that without discussing with the person why they've chosen to do that.
I just think a lot of the attitudes expressed towards even the idea of a woman with a beard, are pretty disgusting. We are talking about a human being here. Whoever she is, she has a reason that beard is there, and it's really not for you to say that it makes her more or less of a woman. As women, I think we need to be the most accepting--it's hard enough being a woman going up against men, but it's even harder if you have to fight for legitimacy with other women.
A lot of the reasons for being upset by the beard, have to do with what is acceptable and not acceptable female beauty, as defined by...guess who...men. I would rather find reasons to support a fellow sister than reasons to tear her down, you know?
Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on August 05, 2007, 11:34:42 AM
Keira, you can't presume anything. I don't know if you're talking about an exact real person, or just making one up, but you really don't know the story behind having the beard or mustache vs. not. You can't learn that without discussing with the person why they've chosen to do that.
I just think a lot of the attitudes expressed towards even the idea of a woman with a beard, are pretty disgusting. We are talking about a human being here. Whoever she is, she has a reason that beard is there, and it's really not for you to say that it makes her more or less of a woman. As women, I think we need to be the most accepting--it's hard enough being a woman going up against men, but it's even harder if you have to fight for legitimacy with other women.
A lot of the reasons for being upset by the beard, have to do with what is acceptable and not acceptable female beauty, as defined by...guess who...men. I would rather find reasons to support a fellow sister than reasons to tear her down, you know?
It's not only men who define feminine beauty as not having facial hair and certainly not beards. Are you not aware of the millions of dollars (probably billions) spent by GGs to remove facial hair? The person in my scenario pretty much just looks like a guy and acts like a guy. Should this person be accepted in women only environs just because she internally IDs as female?
About a year ago I read this article about Jennifer Miller, performance artist. http://www.maryellenmark.com/text/magazines/nytimes/917M-000-012.html (http://www.maryellenmark.com/text/magazines/nytimes/917M-000-012.html). Here's a little more about her at wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jennifer_Miller (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jennifer_Miller). I haven't ever seen her perform, from what I've read, I really admire her.
Zythyra
Its totally unrealistic to be accepted as a women if you have a full beard.
You can quible about the fairness of this, but that's what it is.
So, that person will not get a cure for whatever social dysphoria she had.
If you keep the beard and moustache and grow it out, the kind of GID she has is very very different than mine and any TS I've ever seen. Hair on the body is a major secondary sexual characteristic.
So, what fixes the physical dysphoria, breasts, SRS, nothing!! If there is no need to do anything, either socially or physically, what are we talking about here?
Anyway, as I said, if she can deal with these contradiction in the real world, more power to her, but others will disagree that's for sure.
I'd pull out the classified's and point out the circus was hiring for the bearded lady position!!lol
Seriously, I'd probably politely point out that she is definitely making a serious mistake and should consider her presentation to the world,
Kim :angel:
I have met such a person. I know that I cringe inside and I don't know why. I guess I have some standards as well. I know I shouldn't feel that way but I do. When I'm around her I try not to let my bigotry show and try to be very nice and accomodating as we must look the same way to others who have met trans people for the first time. This person is very nice and very low income but I know that it doesn't cost much to shave. I try the best I can to accept her and to feel that she has every right to express her way into this world. I have read a lot of your letters and it just goes to show all of us that there is also bigotry in minority groups. It isn't bad it just happens. It was the way we are raised and we need to understand this when confronting other groups out there, like the religous right.
Sheila
I'm sorry, but with all due respect, the idea that a woman with facial hair should be less of a person is totally f'in nuts! And btw, FtMs do not need facial hair in order to pass!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have it, don't really need it, shave it off most of the time, and don't have any problem passing as male. People are people, folks. PEOPLE. It doesn't matter what race, gender, nationality, outer appearance, inner identification, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera! Choose your own path. Everyone should have this right. And as far as restrooms go... god, can somebody pave the way for unisex facilities already? Please, folks, don't be like the rest of idiot America, or idiot society as a whole. Let's realize that every woman or man or anything in between has just as much right to life and liberty and happiness as anyone else.
Dino
Oh, and btw... there's a chick who works at a shop we frequent here in SC. She has a full mustache and beard. FULL. She identifies as female, and is, genetically, FEMALE. She is a lesbian. Oh freakin well!!!!!
Quote from: zythyra on August 05, 2007, 11:54:30 AM
About a year ago I read this article about Jennifer Miller, performance artist. http://www.maryellenmark.com/text/magazines/nytimes/917M-000-012.html (http://www.maryellenmark.com/text/magazines/nytimes/917M-000-012.html). Here's a little more about her at wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jennifer_Miller (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jennifer_Miller). I haven't ever seen her perform, from what I've read, I really admire her.
Zythyra
Although many women would consider such a thing a terrible burden, Miller said she takes pride in her beard and uses it as a tool to separate the norms of masculinity and femininity from the actual meaning of gender.
"Having a beard says nothing about your sexuality. It says nothing about your gender. It says nothing but 'body hair,'" said Suzanna Walters, chair of the Department of Gender Studies, who worked to bring Miller to campus.
http://www.idsnews.com/news/story.aspx?id=38776
Jennifer Miller sounds like an admirable woman to me!
-Emerald :icon_mrgreen:
Who on earth was saying she wasn't a person, certainly not me.
I'm saying she's got the be realistic about other's reactions and that
she doesn't seem to have any of the usual GID symptoms.
I don't know if its bigotry to point out that
Dean, excuse me, but In my support groups, all the FTM talk about needing the beard to pass as male, so who's jumping the gun here.
For many MTF, removing the beard is the first step to passability, what does that say.
I've actually known some of the women with beard (but not a full beard, just no makeup to cover the shadow); but, they weren't like that by choise, they were so poor they couldn't afford the makeup to cover the shadow!! Yeah. that's poor!!
I know 2 gg's with beards. One has a full beard on the lower part of her face and the rest seems more sparse. The other has skimpy growth on her chin and a moustache. Sometimes, the second one shaves.
It doesn't bother me at all. I think it bothers people who are squeamish concerning the blending of gender. I actually think that some beautiful women would look very cool with goatees.
Women didn't even start shaving their legs and pits until just over a hundred years ago. I think it's stupid. Like Mother's day, father's day, and valentines day, they are just marketing gimmicks that have become institutionalized as tradition. I wish more women would stop shaving their legs like some of the lesbians I've met. Most do it because they feel they have to thanks to a small minded society.
If somebody forced one of the women I know with facial hair to use the men's room, I would snap their arms off.
I understand that gender blending does not fit most people's life view, but I think it's a prejudice to make judgments. Someday, people can just be people and not be judged or despised for their physical attributes.
Rebis
Um, oops and my dearest deepest apologies for I misunderstood this whole thing. I thought you were all talking of someone making a choice not to shave, not about someone who can't help this hairy situation. Yes, I know of gender women who have hormone problems and have facial hair on them. They use various types of inhibitors much like I do. This type of situation has got to be hard on the individual. Even if one were to choose to have facial hair it is their free choice, but they need to know that in choosing they are mor than sure to draw attention to themselves. Again, my apologies for my previous response.
Kim :angel:
As far as the ftm issue goes, there's so much more that goes into being a guy, it's insane. Show me any chick with a beard, and try to tell me that chick is a guy because of the beard... uh-uh. And why is physical appearance so important? FFS, electro, painstaking procedures that don't do much except make your outside more what the status quo expects it to be... these are simply additional methods to mask the internal. As long as we perpetuate this societal more that it's what's outside that counts, transsexuals, intersexuals, androgynes, and everyone else will continue to be persecuted for things they simply cannot alter.
Dino
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 05, 2007, 11:51:08 AM
Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on August 05, 2007, 11:34:42 AM
Keira, you can't presume anything. I don't know if you're talking about an exact real person, or just making one up, but you really don't know the story behind having the beard or mustache vs. not. You can't learn that without discussing with the person why they've chosen to do that.
I just think a lot of the attitudes expressed towards even the idea of a woman with a beard, are pretty disgusting. We are talking about a human being here. Whoever she is, she has a reason that beard is there, and it's really not for you to say that it makes her more or less of a woman. As women, I think we need to be the most accepting--it's hard enough being a woman going up against men, but it's even harder if you have to fight for legitimacy with other women.
A lot of the reasons for being upset by the beard, have to do with what is acceptable and not acceptable female beauty, as defined by...guess who...men. I would rather find reasons to support a fellow sister than reasons to tear her down, you know?
It's not only men who define feminine beauty as not having facial hair and certainly not beards. Are you not aware of the millions of dollars (probably billions) spent by GGs to remove facial hair? The person in my scenario pretty much just looks like a guy and acts like a guy. Should this person be accepted in women only environs just because she internally IDs as female?
And why do women spend billions of dollars to remove facial hair? It's because men have defined that as the standard of beauty for the times right now. It's got nothing to do with real beauty, and everything to do with making people feel ashamed and "less than".
And yes, why shouldn't the person in your scenario be accepted in women's only environs if she internally IDs as female? Femininity CAN be expressed externally, but it's not always(otherwise none of us would even be here on this forum!).
And <3 Dino's posts on this.
Posted on: August 05, 2007, 05:35:06 PM
Quote from: Keira on August 05, 2007, 02:03:51 PM
Who on earth was saying she wasn't a person, certainly not me.
I'm saying she's got the be realistic about other's reactions and that
she doesn't seem to have any of the usual GID symptoms.
I don't know if its bigotry to point out that
What does it matter whether she has GID or not? She identifies as a woman, so why not afford her that respect? I don't really care how the rest of society supposedly will treat her. You don't have to be a part of the rest of society and make it any kind of issue.
I must admit that I am squeamish when it comes to hairy females.
This all started as a child when my favorite uncle married this...this person. My folks were very opposed to the marriage. She was so crude and low class, and a dog. It wasn't her bark, it was her face.
My mother tried in vain to dissuade him. But it was not to be.
So, there I was as flower girl and trailing behind me was the blushing bride. With a freakin beard!
You'd have thought she'd at least have shaved on her wedding day. ::) It was quite a sight.
A bearded, gross, hulking ogre in a satin and lace gown, the train trailing all the way down the walk.
My poor uncle. He's one of those, 'I only look at the heart kinda people' ::).
And then, the image I wish I could forget - My folks and uncle went out to pick up dinner, leaving me alone with the bearded ogre. And then she bent to do something, and lo and behold, she had plumber's crack and in that crack sprouted about two handfuls of thick dark hair, all the way up and down the crack.
I was very little and I felt bad, like I had seen something I shouldn't have seen. I lost my appetite and wouldn't look in her direction. I weighed for days the question of 'should I tell mom and dad, should I tell my uncle? There's something wrong with her. She may be an alien from another planet. Maybe my uncle should know who or what he married.'
In the end, I was too scared to say anything. But to this day, I'm squeamish about hairy women.
So I completely get where you and others are coming from. It's gross and she should at least shave it.
You can get razors for a few bucks. There's no excuse for a full beard, or a full ass crack of hair. Women should take more pride in themselves than that.
And just in case anyone was wondering - she was a GG. They had 3 kids.
Quote from: Nero on August 05, 2007, 05:56:08 PM
I must admit that I am squeamish when it comes to hairy females.
This all started as a child when my favorite uncle married this...this person. My folks were very opposed to the marriage. She was so crude and low class, and a dog. It wasn't her bark, it was her face.
My mother tried in vain to dissuade him. But it was not to be.
So, there I was as flower girl and trailing behind me was the blushing bride. With a freakin beard!
You'd have thought she'd at least have shaved on her wedding day. ::) It was quite a sight.
A bearded, gross, hulking ogre in a satin and lace gown, the train trailing all the way down the walk.
My poor uncle. He's one of those, 'I only look at the heart kinda people' ::).
And then, the image I wish I could forget - My folks and uncle went out to pick up dinner, leaving me alone with the bearded ogre. And then she bent to do something, and lo and behold, she had plumber's crack and in that crack sprouted about two handfuls of thick dark hair, all the way up and down the crack.
I was very little and I felt bad, like I had seen something I shouldn't have seen. I lost my appetite and wouldn't look in her direction. I weighed for days the question of 'should I tell mom and dad, should I tell my uncle? There's something wrong with her. She may be an alien from another planet. Maybe my uncle should know who or what he married.'
In the end, I was too scared to say anything. But to this day, I'm squeamish about hairy women.
So I completely get where you and others are coming from. It's gross and she should at least shave it.
You can get razors for a few bucks. There's no excuse for a full beard, or a full ass crack of hair. Women should take more pride in themselves than that.
Women should take more pride in themselves than that? What 1950's hole of logic did that statement crawl out of? Cute anecdote I guess. Except completely bigoted. AND sexist. Congrats on the daily double. Again....a woman with a beard is not somehow failing as a woman. Your revulsion at it though, is I think a basic failing of humanity. How can you say such mean things about another human being? About her wedding day, no less! You compared her to dogs and ogres! How is that not dehumanizing? Whether it was a a choice or something she couldn't change, you have no right to somehow assert that she is less than human, and in any way LESS than you on that basis. Is it really that hard to replace bearded lady with, lady with a penis, or lady with stubble, or lady with shaved head, or any of the other million things a woman could do to defy the patriarchal standards of beauty? Is empathy really that hard?
Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on August 05, 2007, 06:11:46 PM
Quote from: Nero on August 05, 2007, 05:56:08 PM
I must admit that I am squeamish when it comes to hairy females.
This all started as a child when my favorite uncle married this...this person. My folks were very opposed to the marriage. She was so crude and low class, and a dog. It wasn't her bark, it was her face.
My mother tried in vain to dissuade him. But it was not to be.
So, there I was as flower girl and trailing behind me was the blushing bride. With a freakin beard!
You'd have thought she'd at least have shaved on her wedding day. ::) It was quite a sight.
A bearded, gross, hulking ogre in a satin and lace gown, the train trailing all the way down the walk.
My poor uncle. He's one of those, 'I only look at the heart kinda people' ::).
And then, the image I wish I could forget - My folks and uncle went out to pick up dinner, leaving me alone with the bearded ogre. And then she bent to do something, and lo and behold, she had plumber's crack and in that crack sprouted about two handfuls of thick dark hair, all the way up and down the crack.
I was very little and I felt bad, like I had seen something I shouldn't have seen. I lost my appetite and wouldn't look in her direction. I weighed for days the question of 'should I tell mom and dad, should I tell my uncle? There's something wrong with her. She may be an alien from another planet. Maybe my uncle should know who or what he married.'
In the end, I was too scared to say anything. But to this day, I'm squeamish about hairy women.
So I completely get where you and others are coming from. It's gross and she should at least shave it.
You can get razors for a few bucks. There's no excuse for a full beard, or a full ass crack of hair. Women should take more pride in themselves than that.
Women should take more pride in themselves than that? What 1950's hole of logic did that statement crawl out of? Cute anecdote I guess. Except completely bigoted. AND sexist. Congrats on the daily double. Again....a woman with a beard is not somehow failing as a woman. Your revulsion at it though, is I think a basic failing of humanity. How can you say such mean things about another human being? About her wedding day, no less! You compared her to dogs and ogres! How is that not dehumanizing? Whether it was a a choice or something she couldn't change, you have no right to somehow assert that she is less than human, and in any way LESS than you on that basis. Is it really that hard to replace bearded lady with, lady with a penis, or lady with stubble, or lady with shaved head, or any of the other million things a woman could do to defy the patriarchal standards of beauty? Is empathy really that hard?
She was marrying into
my family. She had tricked my beloved uncle into marriage. It was embarrassing.
If today, my uncle married a transwoman, I'd be totally cool with it whether or not she had SRS, as long as she did her best to look like a woman, and not the creature from the black lagoon.
Quote from: Nero on August 05, 2007, 06:28:02 PM
Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on August 05, 2007, 06:11:46 PM
Quote from: Nero on August 05, 2007, 05:56:08 PM
I must admit that I am squeamish when it comes to hairy females.
This all started as a child when my favorite uncle married this...this person. My folks were very opposed to the marriage. She was so crude and low class, and a dog. It wasn't her bark, it was her face.
My mother tried in vain to dissuade him. But it was not to be.
So, there I was as flower girl and trailing behind me was the blushing bride. With a freakin beard!
You'd have thought she'd at least have shaved on her wedding day. ::) It was quite a sight.
A bearded, gross, hulking ogre in a satin and lace gown, the train trailing all the way down the walk.
My poor uncle. He's one of those, 'I only look at the heart kinda people' ::).
And then, the image I wish I could forget - My folks and uncle went out to pick up dinner, leaving me alone with the bearded ogre. And then she bent to do something, and lo and behold, she had plumber's crack and in that crack sprouted about two handfuls of thick dark hair, all the way up and down the crack.
I was very little and I felt bad, like I had seen something I shouldn't have seen. I lost my appetite and wouldn't look in her direction. I weighed for days the question of 'should I tell mom and dad, should I tell my uncle? There's something wrong with her. She may be an alien from another planet. Maybe my uncle should know who or what he married.'
In the end, I was too scared to say anything. But to this day, I'm squeamish about hairy women.
So I completely get where you and others are coming from. It's gross and she should at least shave it.
You can get razors for a few bucks. There's no excuse for a full beard, or a full ass crack of hair. Women should take more pride in themselves than that.
Women should take more pride in themselves than that? What 1950's hole of logic did that statement crawl out of? Cute anecdote I guess. Except completely bigoted. AND sexist. Congrats on the daily double. Again....a woman with a beard is not somehow failing as a woman. Your revulsion at it though, is I think a basic failing of humanity. How can you say such mean things about another human being? About her wedding day, no less! You compared her to dogs and ogres! How is that not dehumanizing? Whether it was a a choice or something she couldn't change, you have no right to somehow assert that she is less than human, and in any way LESS than you on that basis. Is it really that hard to replace bearded lady with, lady with a penis, or lady with stubble, or lady with shaved head, or any of the other million things a woman could do to defy the patriarchal standards of beauty? Is empathy really that hard?
She was marrying into my family. She had tricked my beloved uncle into marriage. It was embarrassing.
If today, my uncle married a transwoman, I'd be totally cool with it whether or not she had SRS, as long as she did her best to look like a woman, and not the creature from the black lagoon.
Yes a woman with a beard "tricked" your uncle into marriage...and 3 kids, did you say? Maybe you should adopt your Uncle's more enlightened view of what a woman is vs. isn't.
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 05, 2007, 09:29:43 AM
If you met a person who had a mustache and a goatee and ID'd herself as a transwoman, how would you react? And I am not referring to someone who is PRE-transition,this is someone who is supposedly presenting as female.
ha ha ha ha ha ha i would refer "her" to the closest sanitarium. >:D
This is a very interesting question of gender definition, and gender identity. I was asked 3 days ago by my fellow salespersons to wait on a lady in a sundress, and her.....boyfriend? Right away, I could understand their discomfort in dealing with this woman. She didn't have facial hair, but did have more chest hair than I ever did before it all fell out (thank you God, and spiro). I mean she had a dense curly mat from the neck down, clearly exposed in a lowcut sundress. Also, though, she had a very female-looking frame.
I don't know if she had breasts, because to know this would have me apparently stare at her chest hair as well.
This was my instant decision: She was presenting as a woman, and so I treated her as one, and it was only then, that she began calling me Beverly, and referring to me as she, and her, to her accompanying male friend, even though I clearly presented as female, and am not often read by most customers.
I felt I had been involved in some cosmic test!
So, women who have hair may not be attractive, they may not be appealing, and they might make me feel icky, but.......they're saying to the world they are female says to me they are female. I know....they could be transvestites instead, but I have never seen a transvestite that did not do all in their power to pass, including shaving their chest.
She's female. But it was a tough test!
Bev
Quote from: Katia on August 05, 2007, 07:12:23 PM
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 05, 2007, 09:29:43 AM
If you met a person who had a mustache and a goatee and ID'd herself as a transwoman, how would you react? And I am not referring to someone who is PRE-transition,this is someone who is supposedly presenting as female.
ha ha ha ha ha ha i would refer "her" to the closest sanitarium. >:D
Because she should be locked up? How dare she transgress any gender stereotypes. Again, this is mindboggling that so many of you fail to see the similarities between the discrimination you try so hard to avoid, and are hurt so much by, and what you are saying about other women, just based upon their facial hair.
hey, that's what I would do. yet if you want to hear more, here it is; i'd never, ever socialize with someone like that. you are welcome to do what you want, be friends with them, have this person at your table or whatever. just don't tell me what i have to do. ok?
Quote from: Katia on August 05, 2007, 07:54:37 PM
hey, that's what I do. yet if you want to hear more, here it is;
i'd never, ever socialize with someone like that. you are welcome to do what you want, be friends with them, have this person at your table or whatever. just don't tell me what i have to do. ok?
Ok. Well then don't tell people who don't fit in the little box of reality you have drawn out, that they should be locked up, or that it is THEY who have the problem.
The extent of your own rights only extends so far as they don't hurt other people. And the attitude you expressed is hurtful to other people. And what you are advocating is the maltreatment of others based on their outward appearance. It would be one thing to just say nothing and live your life without having said it. But you are actually going out of your way to express these negative hurtful attitudes, so in that context, I am very justified to come in and tell you that what you are saying is wrong.
wrong? where? here? that may be. but we don't live here, do we? we live outside, in the real world. ask regular (non-ts) folks about this and see for yourself what they will tell you. they wouldn't hesitate to help me lock up the hypothetical person of this topic.
Quote from: Katia on August 05, 2007, 08:11:26 PM
wrong? where? here? that may be. but we don't live here, do we? we live outside, in the real world. ask regular (non-ts) folks about this and see for yourself what they will tell you. they wouldn't hesitate to help me lock up the hypothetical person of this topic.
I have asked regular non-ts folks about it, and they think it's funny that TS people with all the discrimination they put up with, would turn around and discriminate against a woman because she has a beard.
I would need to keep the face clean shaven if I going to pass as woman. I would not even think of going out without cleaning the face of all hair and covering up the shadow, with makeup properly applied.
Linda Ann :angel:
Love being female
It is disturbing to see a transwoman with a beard. I feel sorry for them that they dont get it removed when you can. But if they want acceptance in the general community they are kidding themselves. There are enough freaks out there already. And it gives the Trans-scene a bad image. I dont like it at all but it seems as long as people can do something they will. Why you would want facial hair is beyond me. It is kinda sexy on the right guy....But on a woman trans or not..I dont think so!
I've had so much grief myself being transsexual, and transitioning, and being lesbian, I just can't find it in my heart to be anti-anyone. Live and let live.
Bev
Quote from: Beverly on August 05, 2007, 08:52:50 PM
I've had so much grief myself being transsexual, and transitioning, and being lesbian, I just can't find it in my heart to be anti-anyone. Live and let live.
Bev
Amen Bev!
I'd like a world in which people didn't make such a big deal about a woman wanting to grow a beard or a man wanting to wear a dress. Or whatever. As long as nobody hurts anyone else.
Zythyra
Quote from: melissa90299
BTW I meant this person is not PRE-transition (real or imagined) AND has a fully developed mustache and goatee, not a shadow.
Another question is, if there are functions that are restricted to women only, should a person like this be granted access?
Hmmmm...I'd question the authenticity of this person. How serious is this individual about transition? Unfortunately Melissa, we live in a society that is focused on physical appearance. Yeah, yeah, I know what some of you are going to say, but we do live in that kind of world whether we like it or not. If we lived in a cave, isolated from the rest of humanity, perhaps then we could say that we don't care, but that is not the case, is it? Besides some states in the US who support transgender individuals have very strict laws about who should or shouldn't use public facilities labeled for an specific sex. Personally, I think that this person shouldn't be allowed to use a ladies room. I would be concerned for my safety, for I wouldn't know if this person is for real or just someone who is trying to harrass women.
Quote from: State of California AB 196 lawDefinitions: Gender Identity applies only to those individuals who, with the
documented support of medical or psychological professionals
and in accordance with the recognized Informed Consent Model of
Care or the Harry S. Benjamin Standards of Care, are changing or
have changed their physical characteristics to facilitate personal
and public redefinition of their sex as opposite that which they
were assigned at birth.
Sexual orientation means having or being perceived as having
an emotional, physical or sexual attachment to another person
without regard to the sex of that person, or having or being
perceived as having an orientation for such an attachment, or
being perceived as having a self-image or identity not traditionally
associated with one's biological maleness or femaleness.
Transitioning
Employees: The process for transitioning employees is extensive. It is
accomplished with the help of medical professionals in
accordance with recognized standards of care. In general, the
process will involve psychological testing, monitoring, and
counseling, hormone therapy and a trial living period of at least
one-year to ascertain the level of comfort in the reassigned
gender. It is usually at this stage that the employer is given notice
of the employee's diagnosis and intentions.
Restroom Access
Issues: Restroom access issues need to be handled with sensitivity not
only to our obligation to provide transitioning employees with the
same level of restroom access available to non-transgendered
employees, but also to the emotional responses to co-workers to
the idea of sharing facilities with a transgendered co-worker. Our
restroom access policy is clear. An employee should use the
facility based on his/her current gender. However, once transition
is complete, a transgendered employee has the right to the same
access as a non-transgendered employee of the same gender.
Appearance
Standards: Employees who are transitioning are required, prior to surgery, to
assume the role for their reassigned gender. This process is
known as the Real Life Experience. Although professionals may
recommend living in the desired gender as a step to surgery, the
decision as to when and how to begin the real-life experience
remains the employee's responsibility. Part of that experience is
dressing in the reassigned gender role.
A transitioning employee's attire should remain professionally
appropriate to the office in which they work and the job they hold.
The same dress codes and rules for behavior apply to
transgendered as to other employees. If, as a manager, you are
concerned about the appearance your transgendered employee
will present when she or he starts coming to work in the other
gender role, ask for a picture of her or him in professional attire. If
you still have concerns, these should be addressed with your
employee. If she or he dresses or behaves inappropriately, this
issue should be dealt with the same way it would with any other
employee.
*Employees may use any restroom that corresponds with their full-time gender presentation. Management requires only that, after notifying HR of a decision to transition, a transitioning employee present according to his or her gender identity consistently thereafter.
*A transitioning employee may agree to use a unisex restroom, if one is available and reasonably accessible, for some period during the process of transition.
Employees may use a restroom that corresponds with their biological sex; employees who have completed sex reassignment surgery may use restrooms that correspond with the biological sex to which they transitioned.
*Employers should also note that new Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act regulations reinforce the confidentiality of employee medical information. As a result, unless an employee tells management directly, management may not know whether or when an employee has had sex-reassignment surgery, and therefore may have difficulty implementing a policy based on this standard.
Quote extracted from
this link.I believe that the laws are pretty straightforward. I'm not sure what the laws are in other states which support TS people, but I'm ready to bet that they are pretty much similar to California's.
Twisting the laws and having our own agendas on things are not beneficial in any way. This behavior only causes more chaos and confusion and if we are looking forward to being recongnized as our target gender, then I'm afraid that we are not going to get anywhwere if we keep on acting this way (Melissa's scenario).
tink :icon_chick:
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 05, 2007, 09:29:43 AM
If you met a person who had a mustache and a goatee and ID'd herself as a transwoman, how would you react? And I am not referring to someone who is PRE-transition,this is someone who is supposedly presenting as female.
Personally, not knowing anymore about the situation than what's described above, my reaction would be totally neutral. (OK, in truth, I would probably envy her for having facial hair, because I'd like some too!) But aside from that, it's frankly not my business to judge - no more than I want people to be judging me.
Even if her choice is nothing more than an "F you" to society, I can't blame her. As well pointed out in earlier posts, the whole definition of 'what makes an
acceptable woman' has historically been determined by men - not exactly the most qualified people IMHO to make that decision.
It's been the traditional male definition of femininity that tells us that women have to be hairless, thin, big busted, etc, and that any woman not so, is suspect, or somehow less of a woman. As a bio-woman, I always rejected that, just as I now reject the more rigid definitions of what makes a man.
It's impossible for any culture to not develop roles and definitions for its members - that's part of what makes a particular culture. But that doesn't mean we always have to accept those definitions, or not make efforts to change them. In our own ways, that's what every person in this Forum is doing every day.
So if such a choice (having full facial hair) makes people think about their gender assumptions, then so much the better. I think Bev said it best when she simply stated Live and let live!
Scott
Mallard500
Quote from: Nero on August 05, 2007, 05:56:08 PM
There's no excuse for a full beard, or a full ass crack of hair.
:laugh:
Thank you for the image, but I'll have you know that the first attribute I look for in a woman is a full ass crack of hair. :laugh:
:laugh:
:laugh:
Lets just take the restroom, should all the women there just believe on faith that person is a women and that there is no danger to her. I can't believe anyone could call this fear bigotry. I'd be afraid and I'm 6 foot tall, can't imagine how a 5 foot tall woman would feel in this case. How can they guess that person's gender expression, should they have to guess? The only solution I can find for that is unisex stalls with outside access.
If someone wants to be post-modern or whatever they just have to bear the fact that not everybody's going to be on board with that instantly, and perhaps never. It takes year for people to accept their difference and then they want random strangers to accept them, when they barely are starting to accept themselves. You also have to put yourself in their shoes and see where they are coming from if anything will change and just calling their reaction bigotry will not help at all.
Quote from: Keira on August 05, 2007, 10:03:21 PM
Lets just take the restroom, should all the women there just believe on faith that person is a women and that there is no danger to her. I can't believe anyone could call this fear bigotry. I'd be afraid and I'm 6 foot tall, can't imagine how a 5 foot tall woman would feel in this case. How can they guess that person's gender expression, should they have to guess? The only solution I can find for that is unisex stalls with outside access.
IMHO, a man/person in a dress
with a beard is trying to make a statement. I believe that statement would be best made in a men's room.
Robyn
Oh yeah the glorious nouns Keira ::): bigotry, elitism, superiority, snobbery, arrogance...yeah...well, I am NOT going to jeopardize my safety by being in a room with someone who calls herself a woman and has a full beard. This person could be a weirdo for all I know hiding in women's only spaces to pounce on them. So call it as you wish, it is my right to set my limits.
tink :icon_chick:
Quote from: Tink on August 05, 2007, 10:13:39 PM
Oh yeah the glorious nouns Keira ::): bigotry, elitism, superiority, snobbery, arrogance...yeah...well, I am NOT going to jeopardize my safety by being in a room with someone who calls herself a woman and has a full beard. This person could be a weirdo for all I know hiding in women's only spaces to pounce on them. So call it as you wish, it is my right to set my limits.
tink :icon_chick:
Change beard to penis, and realize that you're being a hypocrite. And also completely irrational.
As to the restroom situation: I'll put it bluntly. I don't want someone with a beard in the Ladies room with my mother. I don't care who or what the hell they are - if they have a full beard, I'd be furious and probably hunt the bearded individual down if I saw them coming out of the restroom my mother was in.
REAL women's (trans and non-trans) safety has to come first, way before this indivdual's 'gender statment' to the world.
Quote from: Nero on August 05, 2007, 10:45:29 PM
As to the restroom situation: I'll put it bluntly. I don't want someone with a beard in the Ladies room with my mother. I don't care who or what the hell they are - if they have a full beard, I'd be furious and probably hunt the bearded individual down if I saw them coming out of the restroom my mother was in.
REAL women's (trans and non-trans) safety has to come first, way before this indivdual's 'gender statment' to the world.
Are you saying if they had a penis and NO beard, it wouldn't be a problem?
Just curious.
Quote from: Tink on August 05, 2007, 10:13:39 PM
Oh yeah the glorious nouns Keira ::): bigotry, elitism, superiority, snobbery, arrogance...yeah...well, I am NOT going to jeopardize my safety by being in a room with someone who calls herself a woman and has a full beard. This person could be a weirdo for all I know hiding in women's only spaces to pounce on them. So call it as you wish, it is my right to set my limits.
tink :icon_chick:
I may be treading on thin ice here, but the climete's already gotten a little chilly...
And so, if this is the case Ladies, then I'd like to honestly ask you,
"How well do you pass to bio-women?"There's several transwomen where I work that don't pass particularly well, at this point anyway. My workplace is very supportive, but as a Supervisor, I do occasionally get women coming to me saying they're uncomfortable with seeing those women in the Female bathroom.
My response to them is always the same: I quote them company policy, (which says you use the bathroom your legal ID says you are), and then ask them what they think would happen if these women used the Mens bathroom?
So I understand that some women are concerned with seeing bio-males in Female bathrooms, but what I DON'T understand is another Transwoman using that arguement unless she can totally pass 100% of the time. Because if you can't, then believe me,
you've no doubt been the source of those same concerns yourself!
For that reason, I'm not buying the 'safety' arguement at all... sorry. It really sounds to me as though you simply can't understand why someone would make the choice she has. I can't claim to understand it either, but I won't pre-judge it without knowing why.
There's plenty of people who can't understand why a bio male would want to have their genitals removed, or a bio female have their breasts reduced - we made those decisions for ourselves however, for our own very good reasons. So I'd be very hesitant to judge
this persons actions without knowing her reasons...
Scott
Mallard500
Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on August 05, 2007, 10:37:58 PM
Quote from: Tink on August 05, 2007, 10:13:39 PM
Oh yeah the glorious nouns Keira ::): bigotry, elitism, superiority, snobbery, arrogance...yeah...well, I am NOT going to jeopardize my safety by being in a room with someone who calls herself a woman and has a full beard. This person could be a weirdo for all I know hiding in women's only spaces to pounce on them. So call it as you wish, it is my right to set my limits.
tink :icon_chick:
Change beard to penis, and realize that you're being a hypocrite. And also completely irrational.
Sarah, the difference is that the individual Melissa described is not even
trying for a female presentation.
If I saw her, I wouldn't think she was a transwoman because the first step most transwomen make is electrolysis.
During the time before electrolysis is complete, they shave and cover the best they can.
So I would assume this person was not a woman.
I saw GG's (they were beautiful) at the pride parade and they had beard's painted on and I thought they were lovely.
I think I'm trying to say that it was obvious they were women. Even if the beards had been real, it would of been obvious.
I guess I have no point in this observation.
Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on August 05, 2007, 10:37:58 PM
Quote from: Tink on August 05, 2007, 10:13:39 PM
Oh yeah the glorious nouns Keira ::): bigotry, elitism, superiority, snobbery, arrogance...yeah...well, I am NOT going to jeopardize my safety by being in a room with someone who calls herself a woman and has a full beard. This person could be a weirdo for all I know hiding in women's only spaces to pounce on them. So call it as you wish, it is my right to set my limits.
tink :icon_chick:
Change beard to penis, and realize that you're being a hypocrite. And also completely irrational.
As I said, call it as you wish, you are entitled to it, just make sure to attack the issue when doing so (not the posters).
Quote from: Site Rules10. Bashing or flaming of any individual is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason.
15. You may challenge the issue, but never the person
tink :icon_chick:
Quote from: Nero on August 05, 2007, 10:48:20 PM
Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on August 05, 2007, 10:37:58 PM
Quote from: Tink on August 05, 2007, 10:13:39 PM
Oh yeah the glorious nouns Keira ::): bigotry, elitism, superiority, snobbery, arrogance...yeah...well, I am NOT going to jeopardize my safety by being in a room with someone who calls herself a woman and has a full beard. This person could be a weirdo for all I know hiding in women's only spaces to pounce on them. So call it as you wish, it is my right to set my limits.
tink :icon_chick:
Change beard to penis, and realize that you're being a hypocrite. And also completely irrational.
Sarah, the difference is that the individual Melissa described is not even trying for a female presentation.
If I saw her, I wouldn't think she was a transwoman because the first step most transwomen make is electrolysis.
During the time before electrolysis is complete, they shave and cover the best they can.
So I would assume this person was not a woman.
All she said was that they had a mustache/goatee and ID'ed as a woman. So they could be dressed as a woman. Have done HRT, have long hair, and otherwise be completely what you would deem female, just with facial hair. But on the basis of that facial hair you are passing judgment on their whole existence and advocating they be mistreated by society in all the ways that trans people have campaigned AGAINST for years and years.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.communityarts.net%2Freadingroom%2Farchive%2Fmonagan%2Fimages%2Ffig7-4.jpg&hash=abce975c0e4c61df93368d7e596399d2d03c055d)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gm.k12.mn.us%2Fstaff%2Fjsmith%2F1966_9_10.jpg&hash=775ecc58486aeb56986c52adbe36c77d0a17154b)
Good grief Mallard, the Melissa's example is someone with a full beard and moustache, that's pretty unambigous to most people... Its not a case of interpretation here. Taking one case and then extending to something else entirely is a definite case of straw argument.
If your doing it at work, people will be informed, quite different.
In society in general, I'd minimally expect carry letters if that person's trying for the restroom (not even sure she would get it) because some people will complain to security for sure.
As for the security argument, I've got two 5 foot tall female friends who were assaulted and can barely tolerate going outside the house, let alone men in restroom. Even if that person's the sweetest person on earth, how could those women know that?
Like I said, the answer to this is to create unisex restroom stalls accessible from a corridor. That way, everybody's satisfied. Parents with their children would also be happy with that.
This is incredibly circular and if you knew my background at all, you'd know that being called a bigot, or whatever else, is something that flies in the face of my whole life!!! Signing off before I lose my cool (rarely do, but hey, it happens).
My girlfriend has a heavy mustache and it doesn't scare me.
Quote from: Tink on August 05, 2007, 10:52:42 PM
Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on August 05, 2007, 10:37:58 PM
Quote from: Tink on August 05, 2007, 10:13:39 PM
Oh yeah the glorious nouns Keira ::): bigotry, elitism, superiority, snobbery, arrogance...yeah...well, I am NOT going to jeopardize my safety by being in a room with someone who calls herself a woman and has a full beard. This person could be a weirdo for all I know hiding in women's only spaces to pounce on them. So call it as you wish, it is my right to set my limits.
tink :icon_chick:
Change beard to penis, and realize that you're being a hypocrite. And also completely irrational.
As I said, call it as you wish, you are entitled to it, just make sure to attack the issue when doing so (not the posters).
Quote from: Site Rules10. Bashing or flaming of any individual is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason.
15. You may challenge the issue, but never the person
tink :icon_chick:
Ok. Sorry. What I meant was that the view on this issue that women with beards are not women, is hypocritical and irrational. Not you specifically. I applogize in my rush to the point, that I personalized it to your direction, when it's the view I have a problem with, not you personally, as I don't know you, and probably like you fine otherwise.
Quote from: Nero on August 05, 2007, 10:48:20 PM
If I saw her, I wouldn't think she was a transwoman because the first step most transwomen make is electrolysis.
During the time before electrolysis is complete, they shave and cover the best they can.
So I would assume this person was not a woman.
and that, too, would be your right, and you will be entitled to it. ;)
tink :icon_chick:
QuoteYeah, yeah, I know what some of you are going to say, but we do live in that kind of world whether we like it or not.
I'm all too aware of the way the world is. But instead of just accepting current attitudes and discrimination against trans or non-trans individuals whose gender expression doesn't conform to the binary, what can we be doing as a community to make this world safer for all.
Zythyra
Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on August 05, 2007, 10:59:19 PM
Quote from: Nero on August 05, 2007, 10:48:20 PM
Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on August 05, 2007, 10:37:58 PM
Quote from: Tink on August 05, 2007, 10:13:39 PM
Oh yeah the glorious nouns Keira ::): bigotry, elitism, superiority, snobbery, arrogance...yeah...well, I am NOT going to jeopardize my safety by being in a room with someone who calls herself a woman and has a full beard. This person could be a weirdo for all I know hiding in women's only spaces to pounce on them. So call it as you wish, it is my right to set my limits.
tink :icon_chick:
Change beard to penis, and realize that you're being a hypocrite. And also completely irrational.
Sarah, the difference is that the individual Melissa described is not even trying for a female presentation.
If I saw her, I wouldn't think she was a transwoman because the first step most transwomen make is electrolysis.
During the time before electrolysis is complete, they shave and cover the best they can.
So I would assume this person was not a woman.
All she said was that they had a mustache/goatee and ID'ed as a woman. So they could be dressed as a woman. Have done HRT, have long hair, and otherwise be completely what you would deem female, just with facial hair. But on the basis of that facial hair you are passing judgment on their whole existence and advocating they be mistreated by society in all the ways that trans people have campaigned AGAINST for years and years.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.communityarts.net%2Freadingroom%2Farchive%2Fmonagan%2Fimages%2Ffig7-4.jpg&hash=abce975c0e4c61df93368d7e596399d2d03c055d)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gm.k12.mn.us%2Fstaff%2Fjsmith%2F1966_9_10.jpg&hash=775ecc58486aeb56986c52adbe36c77d0a17154b)
Whoa whoa Whoa I never 'advocated they be mistreated in society'. I just said I would not want my mother to be put in that position where she has no clue what gender this person is and is sharing the bathroom with them.
I mean - violence against women is no myth. This person could be a transwoman and this person could very well also be a serial rapist or even killer. There's just no way to determine that on a glance.
I thought this was something universal, understood by all women.
Would you really want to be in that position?
I met a gal with a beard,
whom kids ran from afeared;
it hung low down past her chin.
One morn she looked into a glass,
shocked, surprised and aghast;
"my goatee," she screamed, "is too thin!"
QuoteWhoa whoa Whoa I never 'advocated they be mistreated in society'. I just said I would not want my mother to be put in that position where she has no clue what gender this person is and is sharing the bathroom with them.
There needs to be unisex single bathrooms available for anyone who needs them, for any reason. Whether they are trans or non-trans.
QuoteI mean - violence against women is no myth. This person could be a transwoman and this person could very well also be a serial rapist or even killer. There's just no way to determine that on a glance.
And violence against transwomen and transmen is rampant. If I were a woman with a beard, I wouldn't feel comfortable in either mens or womens public restrooms.
Zythyra
Quote from: Keira on August 05, 2007, 11:01:23 PM
Good grief Mallard, the Melissa's example is someone with a full beard and moustache, that's pretty unambigous to most people... Its not a case of interpretation here. Taking one case and then extending to something else entirely is a definite case of straw argument.
If your doing it at work, people will be informed, quite different.
In society in general, I'd minimally expect carry letters if that person's trying for the restroom (not even sure she would get it) because some people will complain to security for sure.
As for the security argument, I've got two 5 foot tall female friends who were assaulted and can barely tolerate going outside the house, let alone men in restroom. Even if that person's the sweetest person on earth, how could those women know that?
Like I said, the answer to this is to create unisex restroom stalls accessible from a corridor. That way, everybody's satisfied. Parents with their children would also be happy with that.
This is incredibly circular and if you knew my background at all, you'd know that being called a bigot, or whatever else, is something that flies in the face of my whole life!!! Signing off before I lose my cool (rarely do, but hey, it happens).
I'm not calling you a bigot, and truly apologize for the perception, but I honestly do find the
argument itself to be skirting the issue. This was actually something that Tink had said, when she was responding to you.
And yes, the world would be much better off with Unisex restrooms - a much better situation for everyone! :)
I totally sympathize with your friends who were assaulted, but the problem with violence, and the understandable fear that women have, is not about beards - it's about what's between the legs. The women at my work don't care what trips their radar in IDing a person as Trans; it can be the voice, the height, (in this case, the beard obviously)... the result is the same - they are concerned because they view the person as a man in a women's restroom. I DO understand the concern, but it's not a reason to dismiss the person - good grief, we don't even know if this person DOES use women's bathrooms...
Goddess only knows why a tranwoman would wear a full beard... I'm just saying it's hypocritical of us to use the same fears and arguments against this person that are used against all of us.
Scott
I honestly have never seen, Nero, why washrooms are gender- or sex-segregated.
It's entirely possible to build floor-to-ceiling stalls. Why not do so? Is there something pervy about washing hands with a person of the opposite gender/sex? Seriously. I don't see what it would be.
I have NEVER seen the genitalia of an opposite-gender/sex person in the washroom. Ever. And my father made me go to the men's room with him until I was 10.
What is wrong with society that we fear things to this level?
Quote from: Keira on August 05, 2007, 11:01:23 PM
<snip>
This is incredibly circular and if you knew my background at all, you'd know that being called a bigot, or whatever else, is something that flies in the face of my whole life!!! Signing off before I lose my cool (rarely do, but hey, it happens).
BTW Keira, I was actually responding to a post by Tink, where she was resonding to
you, and using the bathroom argument, saying that:
"Oh yeah the glorious nouns Keira Roll Eyes: bigotry, elitism, superiority, snobbery, arrogance...yeah...well, I am NOT going to jeopardize my safety by being in a room with someone who calls herself a woman and has a full beard. "
I'm not of the habit of accusing allies of bigotry, as it's one of the worst insults I can think of. :) Again, my apologies if you thought my comments were directed at you - they were in reference to the comments made by someone else.
Thanks!
Scott
Quote from: Tay on August 05, 2007, 11:43:22 PM
I honestly have never seen, Nero, why washrooms are gender- or sex-segregated.
It's entirely possible to build floor-to-ceiling stalls. Why not do so? Is there something pervy about washing hands with a person of the opposite gender/sex? Seriously. I don't see what it would be.
I have NEVER seen the genitalia of an opposite-gender/sex person in the washroom. Ever. And my father made me go to the men's room with him until I was 10.
What is wrong with society that we fear things to this level?
Because there are pervs who will go to extremes to assault women. Women are vulnerable to assault. It's just the way the world has always been.
I'm male bodied and I'm terrified of being in a men's room with drunken men.
Quote from: Rebis on August 05, 2007, 11:02:20 PM
My girlfriend has a heavy mustache and it doesn't scare me.
Things are a wee different for MTF's. A GG can get away with a lot of things from being a tomboy to having a moustache. But unless a MTF is very passable, she will not be perceived and accepted as female if she walks around with a beard or acts tomboyish.
This bearded woman needs to get real and act in a way she wants people to treat her. You're a woman, Ok, then act, dress and look like one & then we'll talk about it. This is real life not a bloody circus.
Melissa, you sure started something here. LOL These postings sure tell where people stand in life. We are all differtent, that is why it is called diversity. I have my feelings of predjudice and it looks like there are a lot of you that do to. We all have them, that is what human nature is all about. We all see things in a different perspective and that is all right. Not only do we have our bodies that are so different our minds and the way we see things are very different. I think this whole post is getting a little out of hand and I hope someone would put an end to it. It is very evident that we all don't see eye to eye on some things. To me this is very negative to Susans and hope that it ends.
Sheila
Quote from: Jeannette on August 06, 2007, 03:27:01 AM
Quote from: Rebis on August 05, 2007, 11:02:20 PM
My girlfriend has a heavy mustache and it doesn't scare me.
Things are a wee different for MTF's. A GG can get away with a lot of things from being a tomboy to having a moustache. But unless a MTF is very passable, she will not be perceived and accepted as female if she walks around with a beard or acts tomboyish.
This bearded woman needs to get real and act in a way she wants people to treat her. You're a woman, Ok, then act, dress and look like one & then we'll talk about it. This is real life not a bloody circus.
failures at reply :P
I act tomboyish, and dress in a tomboyish manner, and i pass perfectly fine, infact i pass better, as im more relaxed and not stressing about being read. Baggy jeans and a hoodie, and i never get sir'd.
That's right, this is real life. Which means, of course, that we must realize that there are actual repercussions for the things we do. If you insult a woman who can't help her facial hair or musculature or shoe size, it could very well hurt her. Think about the times you've been criticized for one reason or another, be it pertaining to trans issues or otherwise. Hurts, doesn't it? In a circus, folks, everything needs to look pretty so the people will ooo and aaaa and clap and send all their friends to pay exorbitant admission costs. In real life, well... we've all got just one life to live (unless you're of the Hindu persuasion), and we should all, as individuals, have the right to live it as we see fit. Let's not persecute others for their choices to exercise their freedom as individuals.
Dino
Quote from: Rachael on August 06, 2007, 11:28:22 AM
Quote from: Jeannette on August 06, 2007, 03:27:01 AM
Quote from: Rebis on August 05, 2007, 11:02:20 PM
My girlfriend has a heavy mustache and it doesn't scare me.
Things are a wee different for MTF's. A GG can get away with a lot of things from being a tomboy to having a moustache. But unless a MTF is very passable, she will not be perceived and accepted as female if she walks around with a beard or acts tomboyish.
This bearded woman needs to get real and act in a way she wants people to treat her. You're a woman, Ok, then act, dress and look like one & then we'll talk about it. This is real life not a bloody circus.
failures at reply :P
I act tomboyish, and dress in a tomboyish manner, and i pass perfectly fine, infact i pass better, as im more relaxed and not stressing about being read. Baggy jeans and a hoodie, and i never get sir'd.
I can't imagine that a young person in baggy jeans and a hoodie, male or female, would ever get called sir. :)
Posted on: August 06, 2007, 04:39:58 PM
For purposes of my scenario, this person does want to be granted access to woman only spaces, this person in my scenario clocks male 100%, yet feels she is entitled to admission to women only spaces. I am still on the fence as to whether or not a person like this should be given access. I mean where (and how) do you draw the line? Or do you draw a line at all?
Quote from: Sheila on August 06, 2007, 11:13:35 AM
Melissa, you sure started something here. LOL These postings sure tell where people stand in life. We are all differtent, that is why it is called diversity. I have my feelings of predjudice and it looks like there are a lot of you that do to. We all have them, that is what human nature is all about. We all see things in a different perspective and that is all right. Not only do we have our bodies that are so different our minds and the way we see things are very different. I think this whole post is getting a little out of hand and I hope someone would put an end to it. It is very evident that we all don't see eye to eye on some things. To me this is very negative to Susans and hope that it ends.
Sheila
I agree with you on some points, Sheila. But I don't think these uncomfortable topics are negative to Susan's.
Susan's is a place for support AND to discuss trans relevant issues. Melissa posted a topic that obviously concerns her.
Posting a bulletin of 'forbidden topics' is what would be very negative to Susan's IMO. Susan's is the place I go to discuss all trans issues. It's a second home to me. The people here are genuine and I'd rather come here for opinions or advice than anywhere else. I don't want to be forced to go elsewhere because some members here can't handle sensitive or uncomfortable topics.
Quote from: DeanO on August 06, 2007, 12:08:13 PM
That's right, this is real life. Which means, of course, that we must realize that there are actual repercussions for the things we do. If you insult a woman who can't help her facial hair or musculature or shoe size, it could very well hurt her. Think about the times you've been criticized for one reason or another, be it pertaining to trans issues or otherwise. Hurts, doesn't it? In a circus, folks, everything needs to look pretty so the people will ooo and aaaa and clap and send all their friends to pay exorbitant admission costs. In real life, well... we've all got just one life to live (unless you're of the Hindu persuasion), and we should all, as individuals, have the right to live it as we see fit. Let's not persecute others for their choices to exercise their freedom as individuals.
Dino
People are cruel. There's no sugar-coating it. Of course everyone has the right to live how they want or to go out as a woman with a full beard. But it's also our right not to like it. Being trans does not exclude us from having our own opinions, likes, and dislikes. I'm not going to pretend to agree with things I don't.
I find this to be one of the better discussions. It took right off and it hits the topic from every direction. It is based on a very simple premise which is close to everyone trans or not. It shows a great range of opinions.
It's good to have people discuss and talk out subjects such as this. I like it better than some of the other topics because it hasn't turned seriously bitter. Strong opinions no attacks.
A full beard and calls himself a transwoman? Lol what planet is he from? I refuse to call someone like that a
she. Peeps like him is the reason society sees us as insane and pervs.
Quote from: Katia on August 05, 2007, 07:12:23 PM
i would refer her to the closest sanitarium. >:D
I would help Katia to put him in a mad house or follow Jeannettes idea and find him a job in a circus where he belongs.
The reason I said that it should be put to an end is that I have noticed some flaming going on. If we all act like adults I don't mind. This is my opinion. I would sure hate to see people dislike others just because of this post.
I also agree that a person who is female in this society should look female and a male should look like a male. Now, I have said that I have my prejudices and that is one of them.
Sheila
Quote from: Pia on August 06, 2007, 06:12:40 PM
A full beard and calls himself a transwoman? Lol what planet is he from? I refuse to call someone like that a she. Peeps like him is the reason society sees us as insane and pervs.
Quote from: Katia on August 05, 2007, 07:12:23 PM
i would refer her to the closest sanitarium. >:D
I would help Katia to put him in a mad house or follow Jeannettes idea and find him a job in a circus where he belongs.
So every woman should conform to your ideas? They cannot rebel against societal expectations? *headdesk*
If every woman lies down and shuts up and refuses to be different, then nothing will change. Ever.
A woman is a woman based on self-identity, not what you or anyone else sees. I'm deeply offended by you referring to this hypothetical woman as "he".
Posted on: August 06, 2007, 06:26:10 PM
Quote from: Sheila on August 06, 2007, 06:17:28 PM
The reason I said that it should be put to an end is that I have noticed some flaming going on. If we all act like adults I don't mind. This is my opinion. I would sure hate to see people dislike others just because of this post.
I also agree that a person who is female in this society should look female and a male should look like a male. Now, I have said that I have my prejudices and that is one of them.
Sheila
So no drag kings or drag queens? No people making a statement? No costume parties?
Sorry. But if a person asks me to treat them as a woman, I trust their self-identity better than my own identification of them.
i have to agree, beard on a woman is nutty... sorry, but want to pass as female? get yourself a razor...
society wont just change because you want it to.
R :police:
I guess I should put an end to the charade of this being about a fictional person, in fact, there is a person out there who demands access to women only spaces while presenting in every way as a male. There may come a time when I am the gatekeeper and have to decide whether or not this person should be granted access. Maybe the duck rule should apply, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, etc, it is a duck.
Funny, at first, I thought this person was an FtoM, (I heard someone mention he was trans) I thought to myself, "Wow! He really clocks guy 100%, that is amazing." Then my thought was "What is he doing in a woman's meeting?"
Later I was told this person IDs as female, quite frankly, I was shocked.
Quote from: Tay on August 06, 2007, 06:29:33 PM
Quote from: Pia on August 06, 2007, 06:12:40 PM
A full beard and calls himself a transwoman? Lol what planet is he from? I refuse to call someone like that a she. Peeps like him is the reason society sees us as insane and pervs.
Quote from: Katia on August 05, 2007, 07:12:23 PM
i would refer her to the closest sanitarium. >:D
I would help Katia to put him in a mad house or follow Jeannettes idea and find him a job in a circus where he belongs.
So every woman should conform to your ideas? They cannot rebel against societal expectations? *headdesk*
If every woman lies down and shuts up and refuses to be different, then nothing will change. Ever.
A woman is a woman based on self-identity, not what you or anyone else sees. I\'m deeply offended by you referring to this hypothetical woman as \"he\".
Posted on: August 06, 2007, 06:26:10 PM
Quote from: Sheila on August 06, 2007, 06:17:28 PM
The reason I said that it should be put to an end is that I have noticed some flaming going on. If we all act like adults I don\'t mind. This is my opinion. I would sure hate to see people dislike others just because of this post.
I also agree that a person who is female in this society should look female and a male should look like a male. Now, I have said that I have my prejudices and that is one of them.
Sheila
So no drag kings or drag queens? No people making a statement? No costume parties?
Sorry. But if a person asks me to treat them as a woman, I trust their self-identity better than my own identification of them.
There are places for drag kings, drag queens, women with beards. We both know where those places are.
Quote from: Pia on August 06, 2007, 06:53:19 PM
Quote from: Tay on August 06, 2007, 06:29:33 PM
Quote from: Pia on August 06, 2007, 06:12:40 PM
A full beard and calls himself a transwoman? Lol what planet is he from? I refuse to call someone like that a she. Peeps like him is the reason society sees us as insane and pervs.
Quote from: Katia on August 05, 2007, 07:12:23 PM
i would refer her to the closest sanitarium. >:D
I would help Katia to put him in a mad house or follow Jeannettes idea and find him a job in a circus where he belongs.
So every woman should conform to your ideas? They cannot rebel against societal expectations? *headdesk*
If every woman lies down and shuts up and refuses to be different, then nothing will change. Ever.
A woman is a woman based on self-identity, not what you or anyone else sees. I\'m deeply offended by you referring to this hypothetical woman as \"he\".
Posted on: August 06, 2007, 06:26:10 PM
Quote from: Sheila on August 06, 2007, 06:17:28 PM
The reason I said that it should be put to an end is that I have noticed some flaming going on. If we all act like adults I don\'t mind. This is my opinion. I would sure hate to see people dislike others just because of this post.
I also agree that a person who is female in this society should look female and a male should look like a male. Now, I have said that I have my prejudices and that is one of them.
Sheila
So no drag kings or drag queens? No people making a statement? No costume parties?
Sorry. But if a person asks me to treat them as a woman, I trust their self-identity better than my own identification of them.
There are places for drag kings, drag queens, women with beards. We both know where those places are.
Perhaps she should be treated as a woman. I would first hand her a razor and tweezers, then refer her to my laser specialist.
Really, how can anyone take a person like this seriously?
I don't see why we shouldn't take them seriously. A person is a person. Some people are eccentric or they go through phases of self discovery that don't appear to make sense of others.
I think the polite thing would be to just ask the person. How do you identify? And then treat them according to their answer. I don't see why you also couldn't just ask about the inconsistent presentation in a tactful way.
Maybe they aren't MtF, but an androgyne. Someone who mixes up their gender expression. If that is true, however, I would suggest they use the men's room. I understand how difficult it is for some people to accept the concept of androgyne and, it's pretty obvious the idea of a 'man' in a women's room makes women uncomfortable.
I guess I'm saying if the plumbing matches what the beard represents, the person should defer to tradition. In a case such as this. Usually, I'd say let them do whatever, but, let's face it, public restrooms are separate for a reason.
Quote from: Rebis on August 06, 2007, 07:23:48 PM
I dont see why we shouldn\'t take them seriously. A person is a person. Some people are eccentric or they go through phases of self discovery that don\'t appear to make sense of others.
A person is a person. But not every person is a woman. If he wants society to treat him like a woman, then he should present as what society considers to be a woman. If not, he has no right to throw a fit.
Quotesociety wont just change because you want it to.
And it certainly won't change if we just roll over and let things stay as they always have been, wrong or right. Might as well try to change the world for the better during our time on the planet. Otherwise, we have learned bupkis, nada, nothing, from our own experiences. I don't know all the circumstances in this hypothetical or real situation, but what I do know is that I respect a person's right to self identity, regardless of how she looks on the exterior.
Zythyra
Quote from: Pia on August 06, 2007, 07:31:30 PM
Quote from: Rebis on August 06, 2007, 07:23:48 PM
I dont see why we shouldn\'t take them seriously. A person is a person. Some people are eccentric or they go through phases of self discovery that don\'t appear to make sense of others.
A person is a person. But not every person is a woman. If he wants society to treat him like a woman, then he should present as what society considers to be a woman. If not, he has no right to throw a fit.
Okay. Instead, she should be sent to an insane asylum or the circus freak show.
Bull.
People are NOT stereotypes and should be given the respect and dignity of being treated like individuals.
Do you know if this person has a familial or religious tradition standing in their way? Or if this person has a good reason to grow a beard? Or if this person may have a medical reason to do so?
You do not know.
I do not act like either a boy or a girl most of the time. Which is fine. But sometimes, I do act more femininely or masculinely than other times. Should I be denied my identity as an androgyne?
Quote from: zythyra on August 06, 2007, 07:35:25 PM
Quotesociety wont just change because you want it to.
And it certainly won't change if we just roll over and let things stay as they always have been, wrong or right. Might as well try to change the world for the better during our time on the planet. Otherwise, we have learned bupkis, nada, nothing, from our own experiences. I don't know all the circumstances in this hypothetical or real situation, but what I do know is that I respect a person's right to self identity, regardless of how she looks on the exterior.
Zythyra
Everyone has a right to their own self-identity but this person is asking to be accepted as a woman when nothing he says or does indicates there is anything about him that is female and he also wants to be granted access to women's only spaces.
tay, you dont have facial hair, being acepted as either gender is very easy to people as you can look like either or neither, a woman with a full beard is just a MALE sign permanetly there. and its not going to win them any favours.
plus this person identifys as FEMALE, not androgyne, females dont have beards, society doesnt accept a beard as part of a woman. end of.
R :police:
Quote from: Tay on August 06, 2007, 07:43:01 PM
Quote from: Pia on August 06, 2007, 07:31:30 PM
Quote from: Rebis on August 06, 2007, 07:23:48 PM
I dont see why we shouldn\'t take them seriously. A person is a person. Some people are eccentric or they go through phases of self discovery that don\'t appear to make sense of others.
A person is a person. But not every person is a woman. If he wants society to treat him like a woman, then he should present as what society considers to be a woman. If not, he has no right to throw a fit.
Okay. Instead, she should be sent to an insane asylum or the circus freak show.
Bull.
People are NOT stereotypes and should be given the respect and dignity of being treated like individuals.
Do you know if this person has a familial or religious tradition standing in their way? Or if this person has a good reason to grow a beard? Or if this person may have a medical reason to do so?
You do not know.
There is no religion that I know of that requires a female to wear a beard, can you think of one? What possible medical reason could there be for growing a beard? I have never heard of such a thing. In all due respect, you are grasping at straws.
If I run across this guy in one of my groups, I am going to assume I know nothing (I really don't, all I know is hearsay) and ask him what he is doing here (at a woman's only meeting)
yes, if the person transitions to female, the male wearing a beard rule goes out the window, THIER FEMALE...
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 06, 2007, 08:11:55 PM
Everyone has a right to their own self-identity but this person is asking to be accepted as a woman when nothing he says or does indicates there is anything about him that is female and he also wants to be granted access to women's only spaces.
Has anyone spoken to this person? Maybe they can explain it.
As Tay said, it's possible that there is a valid reason for the beard.
Maybe it's just somebody performing a social experiment for a thesis or something. If you find that out then you just say "stop it. you're making everyone uncomfortable".
Maybe the person was brutalized by men earlier in their life. They may be entirely messed up and in need of a place of safety.
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 06, 2007, 08:17:53 PM
There is no religion that I know of that requires a female to wear a beard, can you think of one?
Actually, I was thinking that a person may have responsibilities related to family and religion from their pre-transition time.
QuoteWhat possible medical reason could there be for growing a beard? I have never heard of such a thing.
My father has a medical condition (well, had one, anyway) that caused his hairs to grow in in little curls under the skin on his face. He is military and thus expected to be cleanshaven. For part of my childhood, he had a full beard, with medical dispensation to do so. He could not have his beard lasered or electro-d until such time as it had grown in so that the hairs wouldn't be under his skin. He had to take antibiotics and stuff while it was growing in and there was a chance all along that he would have to have a full beard for the rest of his life.
QuoteIn all due respect, you are grasping at straws.
No. I'm considering that people are individuals, not stereotypes, something too many people fail to recognise.
QuoteIf I run across this guy in one of my groups, I am going to assume I know nothing (I really don't, all I know is hearsay) and ask him what he is doing here (at a woman's only meeting)
Ah, respect. Something too many people expect and take for granted, but fail to actually give.
QuoteEveryone has a right to their own self-identity but this person is asking to be accepted as a woman when nothing he says or does indicates there is anything about him that is female and he also wants to be granted access to women's only spaces.
Melissa,
As I said, I respect any person's right to identify how they choose. I also understand that the person's choice to not conform to current gender binary standards can make things difficult, even if I don't agree with those standards. Regarding the situation that you first asked about hypothetically, and now have said is real, I don't know enough information about the types of events and or spaces they wish to have access. Sounds like a difficult situation for you to deal with, perhaps you can talk with her about it? That might be the best approach.
QuoteThere is no religion that I know of that requires a female to wear a beard, can you think of one?
Not for a female, however there are religions or sects that don't allow a male to shave their beard. Orthodox Judaism for one. Perhaps some Muslim as well? So if the person was early in transition, and still living part time as male, that could be reason for not shaving off the beard.
Zythyra
Quote from: Rachael on August 06, 2007, 08:16:07 PM
tay, you dont have facial hair, being acepted as either gender is very easy to people as you can look like either or neither, a woman with a full beard is just a MALE sign permanetly there. and its not going to win them any favours.
plus this person identifys as FEMALE, not androgyne, females dont have beards, society doesnt accept a beard as part of a woman. end of.
R :police:
The point of me asking was that I act in manners that are very masculine or very feminine sometimes. Does this make me a non-androgyne?
Likewise, if a transwoman does something that is non-feminine, does this make her a man?
If this were a conversation about being a nascar driver, you'd all be rooting her on. But because it is about facial hair, you're calling her a man?
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 06, 2007, 08:17:53 PM
There is no religion that I know of that requires a female to wear a beard, can you think of one? What possible medical reason could there be for growing a beard? I have never heard of such a thing. In all due respect, you are grasping at straws.
If I run across this guy in one of my groups, I am going to assume I know nothing (I really don't, all I know is hearsay) and ask him what he is doing here (at a woman's only meeting)
I am male bodied. i am bald. i try to dress neutral, but I look totally male to people. However, i am a part of an LBT women's support group. The women know that I am not transitioning and that I identify as androgyne. When I decided to not transition to female, I asked if they wanted me to go, but they said I could stay. They accept me as part of the group and even refer to me as 'Becky'.
I don't know if it's fair to exclude a person from a group they may identify with. Maybe the person is newly self discovered trans and has no idea of how to go about carrying themself. Maybe they really are androgyne. I consider myself fortunate that the women have kept me.
I have to say that the gay men also offered me a place, but I am not male except in body. I identify as female although I am not entirely female otherwise I would have transitioned.
I have a new theory about myself but this is not the place.
Quote from: zythyra on August 06, 2007, 08:27:39 PM
QuoteEveryone has a right to their own self-identity but this person is asking to be accepted as a woman when nothing he says or does indicates there is anything about him that is female and he also wants to be granted access to women's only spaces.
Melissa,
As I said, I respect any person's right to identify how they choose. I also understand that the person's choice to not conform to current gender binary standards can make things difficult, even if I don't agree with those standards. Regarding the situation that you first asked about hypothetically, and now have said is real, I don't know enough information about the types of events and or spaces they wish to have access. Sounds like a difficult situation for you to deal with, perhaps you can talk with her about it? That might be the best approach.
QuoteThere is no religion that I know of that requires a female to wear a beard, can you think of one?
Not for a female, however there are religions or sects that don't allow a male to shave their beard. Orthodox Judaism for one. Perhaps some Muslim as well? So if the person was early in transition, and still living part time as male, that could be reason for not shaving off the beard.
Zythyra
Now you are grasping at straws, if this person is female, there is no religious obligation to wear a beard.
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 05, 2007, 09:29:43 AM
If you met a person who had a mustache and a goatee and ID'd herself as a transwoman, how would you react? And I am not referring to someone who is PRE-transition,this is someone who is supposedly presenting as female.
I would probably be grossed out as I find facial hair on women to be extraordinarily unattractive. But the fact remains that bearded ladies do exist and are still women. So I wouldn't be a jerk to her, I'd probably just keep my distance to avoid the gag reflex.
:-\ cant hurt to like people for what they are. I'm a man. dont have no facial hair. it means I'm no man? we gotta understand no judge.
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 06, 2007, 08:39:01 PM
Quote from: zythyra on August 06, 2007, 08:27:39 PM
QuoteEveryone has a right to their own self-identity but this person is asking to be accepted as a woman when nothing he says or does indicates there is anything about him that is female and he also wants to be granted access to women's only spaces.
Melissa,
As I said, I respect any person's right to identify how they choose. I also understand that the person's choice to not conform to current gender binary standards can make things difficult, even if I don't agree with those standards. Regarding the situation that you first asked about hypothetically, and now have said is real, I don't know enough information about the types of events and or spaces they wish to have access. Sounds like a difficult situation for you to deal with, perhaps you can talk with her about it? That might be the best approach.
QuoteThere is no religion that I know of that requires a female to wear a beard, can you think of one?
Not for a female, however there are religions or sects that don't allow a male to shave their beard. Orthodox Judaism for one. Perhaps some Muslim as well? So if the person was early in transition, and still living part time as male, that could be reason for not shaving off the beard.
Zythyra
Now you are grasping at straws, if this person is female, there is no religious obligation to wear a beard.
This person ISN'T a female. This person is a woman. As long as she has a penis (and I'm assuming she still does) most religious sects consider her a man. Female refers to sex. Woman refers to gender.
Parsing words or semantics don't change the fact that this person can't possibly hold a religious conviction that s(he) must wear a beard when s(he) holds the innate belief that s(he) is a woman. You are really grasping at straws. BTW female refers to gender and sex.
Quote from: Ashley Michelle on August 06, 2007, 08:41:11 PM
ok, are we just talking hypothetical here, or does this person actually exist?
<-------- still doesnt like beards on men or women
Please button up your pants, Ashley. ;)
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 06, 2007, 08:48:25 PM
Parsing words or semantics don't change the fact that this person can't possibly hold a religious conviction that s(he) must wear a beard when s(he) holds the innate belief that s(he) is a woman.
It can be as simple as a religion that states that if you can grow a beard you should. Most women can't grow beards and by consequence are not required to do so.
And no, just because you've never heard of a religion that requires this is not proof that it doesn't exist. Proving a negative claim is an impossibility.
Quote
You are really grasping at straws.
I don't see the point. One hundred years ago a girl with short hair wouldn't of been a "real girl". Aren't you just clinging to tradition without actually applying the real requirements for being a girl to these people?
Quote
BTW female refers to gender and sex
Not according to the scientific community. Female refers to physical form and in genetics specifically your chromosomal setup (XX or XY)
Quote from: Tay on August 06, 2007, 08:43:01 PM
This person ISN'T a female. This person is a woman. As long as she has a penis (and I'm assuming she still does) most religious sects consider her a man. Female refers to sex. Woman refers to gender.
Failurez...
Islam, one of the major facial hair toteing religions considered someone female when they identify as female and anounce it and lets say, go ft, they live as a woman, they are. thus no bearded ladies in iran, (tho with bhurkas, you cant tell ;))
this is all aslong as your a heterosexual female, no lezzing or its the rope for you ;)
islam giveth with one hand, and taketh away with another....
R :police:
Female refers to gender or sex in any community, scientific or otherwise.
This religious argument is absurd. Someone who believes in the fundamental teachings of Abraham or Mohamed yet believes that that they are innately female while born a man quite frankly belongs in a rubber room.
If the dude is a Muslim and thinks he is a woman, he should be wearing a burka.
QuoteNow you are grasping at straws, if this person is female, there is no religious obligation to wear a beard.
If I'm grasping at straws, it's because we were asked a hypothetical question, and only just found out that it's a real situation. I don't have enough information to know whether she has a religious reason to keep the beard, or is she simply wanting to transgress gender boundaries. If religious beliefs were the reason, and she is male bodied and still living full or part time as male, that could be why she can't shave the beard. Just guessing... which is all I can do with the amount of information given in the original hypothetical question.
And yes, if she chooses to keep her beard, it's obviously going to affect whether she will be invited to participate in women only spaces or events.
Zythyra
*sigh* all rhetorical init?
thier not muslim, thier not wearing a bhurka
they dont really have a beard
THEY DO NOT EXIST M'KAY?
R :police:
QuoteThis religious argument is absurd. Someone who believes in the fundamental teachings of Abraham or Mohamed yet believes that that they are innately female while born a man quite frankly belongs in a rubber room.
I'm Jewish and m2f trans. I guess I better confirm my reservation for the rubber room ;) ;D
Zythyra
omg, scullcap thingy (sowy) and grow a beard asap!
Religion and being trans arnt even remotely un connectable things, someome can belive in allah the same way they can belive in god, i have yet to see you bash any christian trans people...
R :police:
One day in ASDA I saw a huge T person working in the supermarket filling the shelves, they had a almost full beard and wore a dress....weird...
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 06, 2007, 09:53:14 PM
Female refers to gender or sex in any community, scientific or otherwise.
Proof?
Quote
This religious argument is absurd.
And yet it persists. Mostly because as absurd as you think it is (and as absurd as I think a lot of religious beliefs are) they are still prevalent parts of people's psyches. You'd be surprised at the variety of religions out there when you take into account the strange offshoots. I find it difficult to believe that no religion exists on Earth that requires a beard be grown on males.
Quote
Someone who believes in the fundamental teachings of Abraham or Mohamed yet believes that that they are innately female while born a man quite frankly belongs in a rubber room.
Proof? If their religious beliefs and GID don't cause serious mental issues when combined then a rubber room is unnecessary
Quote
If the dude is a Muslim and thinks he is a woman, he should be wearing a burka.
And yet her religious leaders could dictate otherwise if she still has her penis. Breaking from a religious tradition is difficult and to many an impossible task. If she's the head of a household, especially in a patriarchal society or a patriarchal religion, it might be necessary to continue to act as male for certain occasions. If a religious precept against shaving exists for males, it would make sense that shaving while she was in girl mode could still violate those precepts in some way.
Frankly all I see here is clinging to tradition and refusing to see that different scenarios do exist. If this was a real person you're speaking of, did you even bother to go up and ask?
How about a GG with a beard? (maybe a well-done fake one)
Should she also be sent to an asylum and treated as crazy?
Having a beard and representing otherwise female sounds like gender->-bleeped-<- and there is nothing wrong with that. Just shows the problems of having two boxes and wanting everybody to conform to them.
Quote from: Berliegh on August 07, 2007, 01:53:46 AM
One day in ASDA I saw a huge T person working in the supermarket filling the shelves, they had a almost full beard and wore a dress....weird...
Customers in our local Marks & Spencer store were amazed to see a person with a full black beard wearing womens clothes browsing through items in the ladies clothing department. Had it instead been a man or even a passable transwoman, hardly anyone would have raised an eyebrow, but in this case neither the customers nor the staff knew quite how to react. It was like a scene from the Rocky Horror Show.
He or she eventually left the store without making a purchase. Maybe it was a dare, or maybe it was someone with an attention seeking disorder.
If this person identifies as a woman and has antennae grafted to her skull, then she is still a woman. If she identifies as a man with mixed gender expression, then he is a man.
I would just ask the person because some of the responses here are a bit rude. People are people are people are people.
Also, I have noticed that nobody has claimed I should be tossed from my
Lesbian Bisexual Transgender Women's group.
If a potato claimed it was a yam but it looked like a potato, there are 4 courses of action:
- be rude and address it as a potato.
- be polite and address it as a yam.
- Be rude again and just ignore it altogether so that it is ostracized.
- show some gumption and ask the yam/potato about how it feels and treat it accordingly
Remember, always play nice. We can discuss this without attacking the person who is not here whether or not they are hypothetical or real.
Did I just ask that a hypothetical person be treated with the same respect that a real person would be? Has it come to this, my friends?
Dictionary.com
gen·der1 /ˈdʒɛndər/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[jen-der] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. Grammar.
a. (in many languages) a set of classes that together include all nouns, membership in a particular class being shown by the form of the noun itself or by the form or choice of words that modify, replace, or otherwise refer to the noun, as, in English, the choice of he to replace the man, of she to replace the woman, of it to replace the table, of it or she to replace the ship. The number of genders in different languages varies from 2 to more than 20; often the classification correlates in part with sex or animateness. The most familiar sets of genders are of three classes (as masculine, feminine, and neuter in Latin and German) or of two (as common and neuter in Dutch, or masculine and feminine in French and Spanish).
b. one class of such a set.
c. such classes or sets collectively or in general.
d. membership of a word or grammatical form, or an inflectional form showing membership, in such a class.
2. sex: the feminine gender.
3. Archaic. kind, sort, or class.
[Origin: 1300–50; ME < MF gendre, genre < L gener- (s. of genus) kind, sort]
—Related forms
gen·der·less, adjective
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
gen·der2 /ˈdʒɛndər/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[jen-der] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–verb (used with object), verb (used without object)
1. Archaic. to engender.
2. Obsolete. to breed.
[Origin: 1300–50; ME gendren, genderen < MF gendrer < L generāre to beget, deriv. of genus gender1, genus1]
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source
gen·der (jěn'dər) Pronunciation Key
n.
1. Grammar
1. A grammatical category used in the classification of nouns, pronouns, adjectives, and, in some languages, verbs that may be arbitrary or based on characteristics such as sex or animacy and that determines agreement with or selection of modifiers, referents, or grammatical forms.
2. One category of such a set.
3. The classification of a word or grammatical form in such a category.
4. The distinguishing form or forms used.
5. The condition of being female or male; sex.
6. Females or males considered as a group: expressions used by one gender.
2. Sexual identity, especially in relation to society or culture.
3.
1. The condition of being female or male; sex.
2. Females or males considered as a group: expressions used by one gender.
tr.v. gen·dered, gen·der·ing, gen·ders
To engender.
[Middle English gendre, from Old French, kind, gender, from Latin genus, gener-; see genə- in Indo-European roots.]
gen'der·less adj.
Usage Note: Traditionally, gender has been used primarily to refer to the grammatical categories of "masculine," "feminine," and "neuter," but in recent years the word has become well established in its use to refer to sex-based categories, as in phrases such as gender gap and the politics of gender. This usage is supported by the practice of many anthropologists, who reserve sex for reference to biological categories, while using gender to refer to social or cultural categories. According to this rule, one would say The effectiveness of the medication appears to depend on the sex (not gender) of the patient, but In peasant societies, gender (not sex) roles are likely to be more clearly defined. This distinction is useful in principle, but it is by no means widely observed, and considerable variation in usage occurs at all levels.
(Download Now or Buy the Book)
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2006 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
Online Etymology Dictionary - Cite This Source
gender
c.1300, from O.Fr. gendre, from stem of L. genus (gen. generis) "kind, sort, gender," also "sex" (see genus); used to translate from Gk. Aristotle's grammatical term genos. As sex took on erotic qualities in 20c., gender came to be used for "sex of a human being," often in feminist writing with reference to social attributes as much as biological qualities; this sense first attested 1963. Gender-bender is first attested 1980, with reference to pop star David Bowie.
Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2001 Douglas Harper
WordNet - Cite This Source
gender
noun
1. a grammatical category in inflected languages governing the agreement between nouns and pronouns and adjectives; in some languages it is quite arbitrary but in Indo-European languages it is usually based on sex or animateness
2. the properties that distinguish organisms on the basis of their reproductive roles; "she didn't want to know the sex of the foetus" [syn: sex]
WordNet® 3.0, © 2006 by Princeton University.
Kernerman English Multilingual Dictionary (Beta Version) - Cite This Source
gender [ˈdʒendə] noun
any of a number of classes into which nouns and pronouns can be divided (eg masculine, feminine, neuter)
Kernerman English Multilingual Dictionary (Beta Version), © 2000-2006 K Dictionaries Ltd.
American Heritage New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition - Cite This Source
gender
A grammatical category indicating the sex, or lack of sex, of nouns and pronouns. The three genders are masculine, feminine, and neuter. He is a masculine pronoun; she is a feminine pronoun; it is a neuter pronoun. Nouns are classified by gender according to the gender of the pronoun that can substitute for them. In English, gender is directly indicated only by pronouns.
[Chapter:] Conventions of Written English
The American Heritage® New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition
Copyright © 2005 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
American Heritage Stedman's Medical Dictionary - Cite This Source
gen·der (jndr)
n.
1. The sex of an individual, male or female, based on reproductive anatomy.
2. Sexual identity, especially in relation to society or culture.
The American Heritage® Stedman's Medical Dictionary
Copyright © 2002, 2001, 1995 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary - Cite This Source
Main Entry: gen·der
Pronunciation: 'jen-d&r
Function: noun
1 : SEX 1
2 : the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex
===========================================================================
So that canard has been put to rest. I never thought I would have to prove on a TG forum that female refers to gender as well as sex. As well, the idea of a religious fundamentalist who clings to archaic and bizarre (in my view) religious beliefs would OTOH adopt the beliefs of new age genderqueers is preposterous. Sorry, someone like that is really confused and needs intense therapy. I doubt that in the real world anyone ike that exists even with six billion people on this planet.
Posted on: August 07, 2007, 09:51:33 AM
QuoteI find it difficult to believe that no religion exists on Earth that requires a beard be grown on males.
Is this a typo? Certainly, it must be.
Posted on: August 07, 2007, 09:59:13 AM
Now, I am expected to believe that someone who clings to archaic beliefs like this on one hand...
QuoteIn Leviticus 19:27-28 we are commanded:
"(27) You shall not round the edge of your head, nor shall you destroy the edge of your beard. (28) And you shall not make a cutting for the dead in your flesh, nor shall you make a written tattoo upon you; I am YHWH."
In these two verses we are forbidden to make four types of "cuttings":
1) Cutting the head or hair
2) Cutting the face or beard
3) Cutting the flesh
4) Inscribing writing on the flesh
What precisely is forbidden by these four commandments? Are we required to grow long Elvis-style side locks? Or Rabbanite-style "pe'os"? To understand these four commandments we must consider the meaning of the words in their immediate context as well as the broader context of the entire Tanach and the ancient world in which the Torah was given.
Let us begin with the first commandment in the series, rounding the side of one's head. To round the side of the head does not mean to cut the head itself but rather to cut the hair on the head. Specifically we are forbidden from rounding the "Pe'ah" of the head. Pe'ah is often translated as corner or side-lock, but it actually has the meaning of "side" or "edge". This is always the meaning of the word Pe'ah in hundreds of passages throughout the Tanach such as "and for the second side of the tabernacle, on the north side (Pe'ah), twenty boards." (Ex 26:20) and again" And the west side (Pe'ah) shall be the Great Sea, from the border as far as over against the entrance of Hamath. This is the west side (Pe'ah)." (Ezek 47:20).
To "round the edge of your head" means to cut off the hair around the sides of the head. Many exegetes associate this with the pagan "bowl-cut". A bowl-cut was an ancient hair-cut with pagan significance that was created by placing a round bowl on the head and cutting all the exposed hair.
However, when the prohibition to cut one's hair is repeated in Dt 14:1-2 we read: "...you shall not cut yourselves nor shall you place baldness between your eyes, for the dead." Since most people do not have any significant hair "between the eyes" this phrase is usually understood as meaning the hair on the front of the head above the eyes. Bearing this in mind, we learn two things from Dt 14. Firstly, we learn that the prohibition is not necessarily a bowl-cut, but making any baldness around the edges of the head. Secondly, we see that the prohibition is specifically in the context of mourning. That is, one is prohibited to make baldness in the head as an act of mourning "for the dead". In ancient times, when someone died the surviving relatives were so distraught that they cut their skin until they bled and shaved bald spots on their head.
While cutting one's hair may sound like a strange act of mourning to the modern reader, this was a common practice in the ancient world. In fact, the Torah even permits non-Israelites to perform this despised mourning practice in certain contexts. Thus we read regarding the captive Gentile woman: "and she shall shave her head... and she shall cry over her mother and her father for a month of days" (Deuteronomy 21:12-14). As an act of mercy, the Torah allows the heathen women to shave her head while she mourns her recently killed father and mother (cf. Dt 20:13-14).
That making bald spots on the head was a mourning practice is also mentioned by the prophets. Thus we read "And I will turn your feasts into mourning, and all your songs into lamentation; and I will bring up sackcloth upon all loins, and baldness upon every head; and I will make it as the mourning for an only son, and the end thereof as a bitter day." (Amos 8:10) Similarly, we read: "Make yourself bald, and shear yourself for the children of thy delight; enlarge your baldness as the vulture; for they are gone into captivity from thee." (Micah 1:16). These are only two of many verses that relate to the fact that in ancient times making bald spots on the head was an act of mourning along with lamentation, rending of clothes and donning of sackcloth. Thus when we are forbidden in Lev 19 and Dt 14 to "round the side of your head" and "place baldness between your eyes... for the dead" the meaning is that we may not shave our head or any part thereof as an act of mourning or sadness. There is no implication in the commandment in Lev 19 that we must grow side locks or pony tails. The only thing prohibited in Lev 19:27a is to shave the side of the head as an act of mourning. Were one to shave their head for stylistic reasons their would be no prohibition whatsoever.
We have seen thus far that the Israelite is forbidden to make cuts in his flesh and shave parts of his head as acts of mourning "for the dead". In Lev 21 we read of a similar prohibition that specifically applies to the Kohanim (descendants of Aaron). In Lev 21 the Kohanim are forbidden from becoming ritually impure from the dead with the exception of their immediate relatives. After listing the relatives that the Kohen may become impure from, we read:
"(4) A man shall not become impurified by his people to defile him. (5) They shall not make bald a baldness in their head nor shall they shave the edge of their beard and in their flesh they shall not cut a cut." (Lev 21:4-5)
The context of the passage is explicitly defiling oneself for the dead. In this case the Kohanim are forbidden from various mourning practices. Not only are they forbidden from coming in contact with the dead bodies of their deceased friends (vv.1ff.) but they are also forbidden from defiling themselves by making bald spots on their heads, by shaving their beards, and by cutting their skin. We see here that three of the prohibitions found in Lev 19 and Dt 14 are repeated in Lev 21. In all three passages both the implicit and explicit contexts are that of mourning practices. Every ancient person knew that one cut one's skin or shaved one's head as an act of mourning and it was these acts of mourning that are being prohibited in Lev 19. While the mourning connotation of cutting flesh and shaving may not be obvious to the modern reader, we have seen that the Torah itself as well as the later prophets take it as a given that cutting one's flesh and shaving one's head are characteristic acts of mourning along with crying and wearing sackcloth.
It is worth noting that the Nazir makes a vow not to shave his head (Nu 6:5). At the end of the period of abstention, the Nazir shaves his entire head, as we read: "And the Nazirite shall shave his consecrated head at the door of the tent of meeting, and shall take the hair of his consecrated head, and put it on the fire which is under the sacrifice of peace-offerings." The reason the Nazir is permitted to shave his entire head is because he is not doing it as an act of mourning. Similarly, we read in 2Sam 14:26 that Absalom, the son of King David, used to grow his hair long and then shave his head every year. Again, this was not an act of mourning and therefore it was permissible to shave the head.
Given that destroying/ shaving the beard is mentioned in the context of forbidden mourning rites in both Lev 19 and Lev 21, we must ask whether shaving the beard was also a forbidden mourning rite? In other words, is the prohibition to destroy/ shave the beard a general prohibition for all occasions or is it exclusively prohibited as an acts of mourning or sadness.
Perhaps the first clue regarding shaving one's beard is the ritual purification of the Metsora or "leper". We read in Lev 14:9: "And it shall be on the seventh day, that he shall shave all his hair off his head and his beard and his eyebrows, even all his hair he shall shave off; and he shall wash his clothes, and he shall bathe his flesh in water, and he shall be clean." We see that in certain contexts a person is required to shave his beard and this is even an act of purification. Similarly, we read about the consecration of the Levites: "And thus shalt thou do unto them, to cleanse them: sprinkle the water of purification upon them, and let them cause a razor to pass over all their flesh, and let them wash their clothes, and cleanse themselves." (Nu 8:7). Again we see that shaving the beard and indeed all the hair is not only permissible but can be an act of purification. In contrast, the prohibition of Lev 19 is to shave the head or beard as an act of mourning!
That shaving the beard was an act of mourning in ancient times is clear from many biblical passages. For example, in the Book of Jeremiah we read about a group of pilgrims mourning the destruction of the Temple: "There came certain men from Shechem, from Shiloh, and from Samaria, eighty men, having their beards shaven and their clothes rent, and having cut themselves, with meal-offerings and frankincense in their hand to bring them to the house of YHWH." (Jeremiah 41:5). We see that these pilgrims were mourning and therefore tore their clothes, cut their skin, and shaved their beards. Clearly then shaving the beard was also an act of mourning along with tearing the clothes and cutting the skin.
The fact that shaving was an act of mourning may shed light on a rather obscure passage that till now has defied explanation. In 2Sam 9:1-4 we read that David sent emissaries to Hanun king of Amon to comfort him over the death of his father. For some reason Hanun became convinced that David's emissaries had not come to comfort him but to spy out the land. In a strange act of retribution he decided to cut off half their beards and send them humiliated back to Israel. Thus we read:
"(2) ...And David's servants came into the land of the children of Amon. (3) But the princes of the children of Amon said unto Hanun their lord: 'Do you think that David does honour your father, that he hath sent comforters to you? has not David sent his servants to thee to search the city, and to spy it out, and to overthrow it?' (4) So Hanun took David's servants, and shaved off the one half of their beards, and cut off their garments in the middle, even to their buttocks, and sent them away."
Up till now it always seemed strange that Hanun and his advisors would suspect David's emissaries of being spies without any seeming justification. Even stranger was his reaction to discovering spies be that he cut off their beards. Bearing in mind that ancient peoples shaved off their beards as an act of mourning "for the dead", it becomes clear why Hanun's advisors doubted that David's comforters had come to pay condolences. Presumably Hanun and his cronies sat in the royal court with torn clothes, cut skin, and shaven beards. When David's men arrived with full beards Hanun's advisors assumed they were not coming to mourn the dead king but to spy out the land. For were they really coming to mourn the king they would have shaven their beards. To teach them respect of the dead and humiliate them at the same time, Hanun ordered that half their beards be cut off!
In summation, Lev 19:27-28, Lev 21:4-5, Dt 14:1-2 prohibit 4 different acts of mourning. These are:
1) Making a bald spot on the head as an act of mourning
2) Shaving the beard as an act of mourning
3) Cutting the skin as an act of mourning
4) Writing on the skin as an act of mourning
Interestingly, the making of tattoos as an act of mourning is the most elusive in the list. It is only mentioned once in Lev 19:28 and then never alluded to again in the Tanach. Reference is made to writing on the flesh as an act of dedication to YHWH (Isa 44:5), but never as an act of mourning. Yet the practice of inscribing the name of the dead loved one in a tattoo still exists to this very day. Recently this practice has come to the attention of the public when it was reported that New York firemen and policemen were inscribing tattoos on their flesh in memory of their deceased comrades.
...would, on the other hand, believe that someone presenting as a man to the point of wearing a beard and presenting as a man outwardly in virtually every way, would demand that she be accepted and referred to as a woman.
First of all if you don't agree with what that person is doing then don't associate with them. But keep in mind your own transition woes. I.E. getting clocked, not looking so great one day... You have no idea what that person may be dealing with, but you do know the crap they are putting up with.
Just a short story.
I go to the VA for all of my med stuff. There was this combat vet who was trans but presented a mixed gender roll due to reoccuring PTSD, something you cannot fathom unless you have been in a combat situation. so this person was trying to balance these two completely different lives, much like we do or have done, but with the added anxiety, combat stress, flashbacks, and more.
SO don't judge, it;s not fair, and I'm sure you all have had your days.
~Mischa
I Second that statement.
Sarah L.
Quote from: Mischa on August 07, 2007, 10:21:39 AM
First of all if you don't agree with what that person is doing then don't associate with them. But keep in mind your own transition woes. I.E. getting clocked, not looking so great one day... You have no idea what that person may be dealing with, but you do know the crap they are putting up with.
Just a short story.
I go to the VA for all of my med stuff. There was this combat vet who was trans but presented a mixed gender roll due to reoccuring PTSD, something you cannot fathom unless you have been in a combat situation. so this person was trying to balance these two completely different lives, much like we do or have done, but with the added anxiety, combat stress, flashbacks, and more.
SO don't judge, it;s not fair, and I'm sure you all have had your days.
~Mischa
Who is judging?
Quote from: Laura Elizabeth Jones on August 05, 2007, 09:48:55 AM
Honestly, I would be offended. I am all for people doing their own thing, but for someone to have a fricking beard and moustach and claim to be a woman is absolutely ridiculous. You shave that stuff off or you have hair removal done, and that is it.
Quote from: louise000 on August 05, 2007, 10:25:38 AM
Ugh!!! >:(
Quote from: Jonni Smith on August 05, 2007, 11:06:46 AM
I'd say hell no. Make an effort! If your are gonna talk the talk you need to walk the walk!
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 07, 2007, 10:27:52 AM
Who is judging?
That's what it sounded like to me....no pun's intended.
~M
Quote from: Ashley Michelle on August 07, 2007, 10:38:05 AM
Quote from: Rebis on August 07, 2007, 08:33:27 AM
If a potato claimed it was a yam but it looked like a potato, there are 4 courses of action:
- be rude and address it as a potato.
- be polite and address it as a yam.
- Be rude again and just ignore it altogether so that it is ostracized.
- show some gumption and ask the yam/potato about how it feels and treat it accordingly
if that were me, i'd just answer "i yam what i yam" ;D
(sound of rimshot)
Pleeeaase button up your pants. your driving me crazy :o
Since your post followed mine, I presumed you were accusing me of judging.
I am not judging anyone, I do question the validity of the fictitious person who would cling without question to archaic, barbaric and outmoded laws while embracing new age concepts of gender-bending. It defies logic.
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 07, 2007, 11:39:38 AM
Since your post followed mine, I presumed you were accusing me of judging.
I am not judging anyone, I do question the validity of the fictitious person who would cling without question to archaic, barbaric and outmoded laws while embracing new age concepts of gender-bending. It defies logic.
Human Beings are very complicated people. Each individual has their own belief and form of logic. I never expect logic from anyone, particularly myself.
Plus, we still do not even know or understand the fictitious person's fictitious motives.
Quote from: Rebis on August 07, 2007, 11:44:26 AM
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 07, 2007, 11:39:38 AM
Since your post followed mine, I presumed you were accusing me of judging.
I am not judging anyone, I do question the validity of the fictitious person who would cling without question to archaic, barbaric and outmoded laws while embracing new age concepts of gender-bending [concepts.] It defies logic.
Human Beings are very complicated people. Each individual has their own belief and form of logic. I never expect logic from anyone, particularly myself.
Plus, we still do not even know or understand the fictitious person's fictitious motives.
You really missed my point. Sophia created a construct that, in my mind, is not credible. A person who would cling to outmoded, barbaric and archaic beliefs while OTOH embracing the most extreme new age gender-bending most likely does not exist and if a person like that does exist, he/she likely would need intense therapy. I could say that I am Mary Queen of Scots but that wouldn't make it true. Most people call that insanity.
As far as motives, you have to ask the creator of the fictitious construct i.e. Sophia.
Quote from: Ashley Michelle on August 07, 2007, 12:38:56 PM
Quote from: Rebis on August 07, 2007, 11:39:24 AM
Pleeeaase button up your pants. your driving me crazy :o
in a good way or bad way? ;)
Good :embarrassed:
Ironically, I think I'm close to seeing your beard. :laugh: (Please understand this reference)
did that combat vet who presented mixed gender have a beard?
if not, IRELEVANT!
and for the point of this topic, a beard is a MALE physical symbol, if the person doesnt want to get rid of it, then thier dysphoria cannot be as strong as they claim....
R :police:
Quote from: Ashley Michelle on August 07, 2007, 12:56:54 PM
Quote from: Rebis on August 07, 2007, 12:41:42 PM
Quote from: Ashley Michelle on August 07, 2007, 12:38:56 PM
Quote from: Rebis on August 07, 2007, 11:39:24 AM
Pleeeaase button up your pants. your driving me crazy :o
in a good way or bad way? ;)
Good :embarrassed:
Ironically, I think I'm close to seeing your beard. :laugh: (Please understand this reference)
lol! that would be, er, somewhat impossible :icon_bunch:
So does this mean you shave YOUR beard? Guess that means they are not talking about you, eh?
After reading ALL of this...yeah, it took a while...I am amazed at the amazing leaps of logic taken by some to support their viewpoints, and saddened by the blantant closedmindedness (is that a real word?) of others.
Since appararently this is a real person, and may potentially cause a very difficult situation to arise for an active member here at Susan's, a little support seems to be called for.
Melissa, as uncomfortable as it sounds, and as permitted by company policies and guidelines, a discussion with this person may be required. Accept her as the female she claims to be. Explain some of the concerns of the other co-workers in a general manner, and also the concerns of the company (who doesn't want its staff to quit or be slapped with a lawsuit). As I doubt she is completely ignorant of the situation, politely ask that if she were in your place, how would she handle it?
This will answer a lot of the questions, and allow you to make the best decision, (even if it is not the most popular).
Situations like this make me very happy I never opted for the Management route in my career. Best of luck to you, sweetie.
.......Laurry
sorry, but sometimes closedmindedness, and open mindedness cannot cover a woman with a beard, by all means, do it in private, glue one on for all you like, but females dont have that amount of facial hair in this culture. if you want to do that, go elsewhere. the world doenst revolve around you....
R :police:
Quote from: Rachael on August 07, 2007, 01:55:12 PM
sorry, but sometimes closedmindedness, and open mindedness cannot cover a woman with a beard, by all means, do it in private, glue one on for all you like, but females dont have that amount of facial hair in this culture. if you want to do that, go elsewhere. the world doenst revolve around you....
R :police:
Rachael,
Are you quite serious, or are you playing with us?
No offense meant. Just asking.
Rebis
Quote from: Rebis on August 07, 2007, 02:02:01 PM
Quote from: Rachael on August 07, 2007, 01:55:12 PM
sorry, but sometimes closedmindedness, and open mindedness cannot cover a woman with a beard, by all means, do it in private, glue one on for all you like, but females dont have that amount of facial hair in this culture. if you want to do that, go elsewhere. the world doenst revolve around you....
R :police:
Rachael,
Are you quite serious, or are you playing with us?
No offense meant. Just asking.
Rebis
i honestly dont know....
i do however feel that a person who identifies as female, yet maintains facial hair, has somert up with thier grey matter...
R :police:
Quote from: Rachael on August 07, 2007, 02:07:06 PM
Quote from: Rebis on August 07, 2007, 02:02:01 PM
Quote from: Rachael on August 07, 2007, 01:55:12 PM
sorry, but sometimes closedmindedness, and open mindedness cannot cover a woman with a beard, by all means, do it in private, glue one on for all you like, but females dont have that amount of facial hair in this culture. if you want to do that, go elsewhere. the world doenst revolve around you....
R :police:
Rachael,
Are you quite serious, or are you playing with us?
No offense meant. Just asking.
Rebis
i honestly dont know....
i do however feel that a person who identifies as female, yet maintains facial hair, has somert up with thier grey matter...
R :police:
Someday, when you're a policewoman, you may be called on to protect such a person.
when im an officer, ill do my duty to protect someone, that doesnt require me to agree with how they choose to live...
R :police:
Quote from: Rachael on August 07, 2007, 02:41:55 PM
when im an officer, ill do my duty to protect someone, that doesnt require me to agree with how they choose to live...
R :police:
I agree with you. However, it will be more difficult to perform your duty if you have a sort of repulsion for those who are different. I would suspect that you will meet many different people, some even more disturbing than a woman with a beard.
i am allowed to dissagree with what i want, when on duty, im the law, and i uphold it, regardless of someones choices. its victim and assailant. end of story.
i leave my personal opinions in the duty room.
R :police:
Quote from: Rachael on August 07, 2007, 02:51:20 PM
i am allowed to dissagree with what i want, when on duty, im the law, and i uphold it, regardless of someones choices. its victim and assailant. end of story.
i leave my personal opinions in the duty room.
R :police:
No problem from me. I agree with you.
I'm just saying a job like that must be tough. Having to meet so many different people under circumstances of duress. I'd rather work in a toll booth.
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 07, 2007, 10:11:09 AM
<snip *material used as proof* snip>
===========================================================================
So that canard has been put to rest.
You have only proven that it is used interchangably for layman's terms. Please provide a scientific source to show that the scientific community (specifically the biology community) uses gender and sex interchangably and the word female for both. Especially since it was the scientific community I asked about specifically.
Also dictionary.com is a terrible source, for future reference. I'm glad you pulled several others so I didn't have to disregard your material.
Quote
I never thought I would have to prove on a TG forum that female refers to gender as well as sex.
I never thought I'd have to hassle someone to actually back their assertions over several posts before they actually bothered to put the effort in. Better late then never though. I'd also like to point out that you only established that gender and sex are used interchangably when it comes to layman's terms. You have proven nothing for the biology community. My expectation is that you will provide in your next post or concede the point.
I'm sorry I don't just take your word for it but in debate proof is a requirement, not an option.
Quote
As well, the idea of a religious fundamentalist who clings to archaic and bizarre (in my view) religious beliefs would OTOH adopt the beliefs of new age genderqueers is preposterous.
You'll have to actually prove this. Selective usage of Christian law, for instance, is very much in effect. There are many Christians who only take the part of Leviticus that condemns homosexuality and ignore every single other part (like the parts that denote that one can not mix two fabrics in their clothing).
The idea that someone picked up on the archaic and bizarre (in my view as well) religious beliefs in a piecemeal fashion and happened to avoid picking up the ones that would endanger their gender identity is not only logically sound considering the patchwork quilt quality of religions today but almost unsurprising. Personal interests have always influenced faith. Why would one acknowledge a law of faith that hurt them when they can selectively ignore laws in their religion?
How much of a study of religion have you truly made? Christianity has absorbed beliefs from hundreds of pagan faiths and old cults, removing chunks of the beliefs already present. Most religions have this eclectic nature. Even strict religions like Islam went through a heavy conversion phase and absorbed other religious beliefs to enable conversion of people during the early decades of the faith's growth.
Quote
Sorry, someone like that is really confused and needs intense therapy.
Unless you're of the opinion that someone who is religious needs intense therapy I don't really see how your comment is relevant or all that true. If it doesn't reduce one's functionality then they require no therapy or treatment.
And no you aren't sorry. Insincere apologies are wholly unnecessary here. If you're going to share your opinion then do so. Don't try to lessen the offense you think you might cause by pretending to be apologetic for having your opinion. I may not agree with you but I'm not offended by our different views.
Quote
I doubt that in the real world anyone ike that exists even with six billion people on this planet.
I'd ask you to prove that, but no one can prove a negative claim. So you made an assertion that you can't possibly prove.
Quote
QuoteI find it difficult to believe that no religion exists on Earth that requires a beard be grown on males.
Is this a typo? Certainly, it must be.
It really isn't. Is it so odd to you that someone could disagree with you?
Quote
Now, I am expected to believe that someone who clings to archaic beliefs like this on one hand...
QuoteIn Leviticus 19:27-28 we are commanded:
"(27) You shall not round the edge of your head, nor shall you destroy the edge of your beard. (28) And you shall not make a cutting for the dead in your flesh, nor shall you make a written tattoo upon you; I am YHWH."
In these two verses we are forbidden to make four types of "cuttings":
1) Cutting the head or hair
2) Cutting the face or beard
3) Cutting the flesh
4) Inscribing writing on the flesh
What precisely is forbidden by these four commandments? Are we required to grow long Elvis-style side locks? Or Rabbanite-style "pe'os"? To understand these four commandments we must consider the meaning of the words in their immediate context as well as the broader context of the entire Tanach and the ancient world in which the Torah was given.
<snip>
And here's where we stop. You're using logic to analyze faith. Its fine and dandy if you're debating the validity of the faith or what the rules mean. But that's not what your garden variety average religious fundie does.
Do you honestly believe that a fundie would analyze that verse using logic, past languages, history, and psychology?
Most average fundamentalists follow these rules without knowing why they exist, what reason they were made for and even what the rules mean. Heck, these same people use the Leviticus ban against man lying with man as he would with a woman to condemn lesbian sex, which involves no men at all!
Your analysis is wonderful but you are being wholly unrealistic to expect any fundamentalist to even listen to such an analysis much less do it themselves. I can not believe, even slightly, that all of them would realize that its bans regarded methods of mourning and not simply take it literally.
There's an analysis of the Leviticus ban I mentioned before that actually links that ban to temple prostitution and not homosexual sex in general between men. And yet the fundamentalists just closed their ears and made "la la la" sounds. What really makes you think they are going to only do that in relation to one section of their religious law and not in regards to all of it?
Quote
...would, on the other hand, believe that someone presenting as a man to the point of wearing a beard and presenting as a man outwardly in virtually every way, would demand that she be accepted and referred to as a woman.
And yet such insane inconsistencies do exist in every religion, with all religious rules, and with lots of religious people. The fact that they boggle your mind does not mean they don't exist. The fact that neither of us would do something like that doesn't mean other people wouldn't.
When you're dealing with religious beliefs, logical analysis rarely comes into play, and human nature has a field day with people's behavior.
Posted on: August 07, 2007, 03:16:25 PM
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 07, 2007, 11:39:38 AM
Since your post followed mine, I presumed you were accusing me of judging.
I am not judging anyone, I do question the validity of the fictitious person who would cling without question to archaic, barbaric and outmoded laws while embracing new age concepts of gender-bending. It defies logic.
Many Religions defy logic to begin with. Why would someone who clings without question to archaic, barbaric and outmoded laws see that doing so and accepting gender-bending would be illogical? I'm amazed you haven't accounted for that yet.
Quote from: Rachael on August 07, 2007, 12:44:29 PM
did that combat vet who presented mixed gender have a beard?
if not, IRELEVANT!
and for the point of this topic, a beard is a MALE physical symbol, if the person doesnt want to get rid of it, then thier dysphoria cannot be as strong as they claim....
R :police:
When you go to war and kill for your own point of veiw, others point of veiw, and then for a point of veiw you may not even agree with, in which, may, or may not make that situation better. the you take a life and your innocence is lost, with no visible sign of returning(not saying it never will). Then dealing with you trans issues, trying desperatly to start new. But that little thing you lost during your days as a soldier plays on you constantly. Moving on becomes impossible. tring to find a balance is your only hope.
So, as you see your veiw is a little narrow in the sense that, not every thing is what it seems. Dysphoria is only thing you can conclude. But you don't know the unseen.
~M
And yes that Combat Veteran somtimes had a beard.
Quote from: Ashley Michelle on August 07, 2007, 07:51:04 AM
Quote from: Sophia on August 07, 2007, 02:05:41 AM
I find it difficult to believe that no religion exists on Earth that requires a beard be grown on males.
amish?
Yes, Amish men are required by the Ordnung to wear beards, but only after they marry. Moustaches are not allowed, because in olden times soldiers used to wear moustaches and the Amish want nothing to do with military force. Unmarried men do not grow beards. The Ordnung is a set of rules which are based on Amish traditions inspired by the Bible.
On no account are Amish women permitted beards (...joke :laugh:!).
Louise
actually, ive been to war. although i dont know if i ever killed anyone (british reserves did a tour in A'stan in 05)
and someone having a beard isntsomething thats effected by ptsd, or experiences, thats bloody excuses...
narrow minded or just one person seeing clearly through the layers of flounceing and 'oh if they want to its thier choice' stuff.
heres a little thing to think about.
im a girl, when i started to grow hair on my face, (what little i got) i hated it, and wanted it to go away, because girls dont have hairy faces....
nuf said.
R :police:
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 05, 2007, 09:29:43 AM
If you met a person who had a mustache and a goatee and ID'd herself as a transwoman, how would you react? And I am not referring to someone who is PRE-transition,this is someone who is supposedly presenting as female.
This is a reminder about what this thread was initially about. I believe that the heart of the post is
QuoteIf you met a person who had a mustache and a goatee and ID'd herself as a transwoman, how would you react?
Sometimes, there is a little too much contention in this conversation. I understand that everyone has a different opinion, however, we should remember to get along nicely. This message is not directed at or toward any one person in particular. It is meant to be a reminder that it would be best to stick to the initial topic as closely as possible.
We can not expect to change someone's opinion or point of view. We sometimes have to settle for describing our own point of view and hoping that we somehow influenced others.
I'll stop posting my own opinion as a citizen. I'll keep reading the thread and only speak up as a moderator in cases where I fear there may be bad blood developing.
Love,
Rebis
Quote from: Rachael on August 07, 2007, 03:40:44 PM
actually, ive been to war. although i dont know if i ever killed anyone (british reserves did a tour in A'stan in 05)
and someone having a beard isntsomething thats effected by ptsd, or experiences, thats bloody excuses...
narrow minded or just one person seeing clearly through the layers of flounceing and 'oh if they want to its thier choice' stuff.
heres a little thing to think about.
im a girl, when i started to grow hair on my face, (what little i got) i hated it, and wanted it to go away, because girls dont have hairy faces....
nuf said.
R :police:
That is your own oppinion.
Here is something to think about. Go to the battle field in Iraq and see your battle buddy get blown to bits, while being ambushed by a group of insurgents hiding in an ally-way. try to shoot staight not to hit little kids running from the explosion, and trying desperatly to give you buddy morphine injections so he feels no pain while crossing over in a place so far from home. Then talk to me about
bloody excuses.
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 07, 2007, 11:57:15 AM
You really missed my point. Sophia created a construct that, in my mind, is not credible.
Its not credible because you've made several truly unrealistic assumptions about religion, religious fundamentalists and human nature.
You assume the following:
1: A fundamentalist will logically analyze his or her or hir faith in a way that allows them to understand why the laws exist, what the truly mean and avoid mistakes in carrying them out.
2: Religions are stable and do not change.
3: Fundamentalists will not selectively adopt and ignore religious laws from their religions based on personal interest and feelings
There are likely more unrealistic (imho) assumptions you have made regarding this example but those are the only ones I've seen come into play now. For that reason you find my example incredible. But since I consider your assumptions to be completely unrealistic and in some cases beyond the pale of credibility, I can not share your view.
Quote
A person who would cling to outmoded, barbaric and archaic beliefs while OTOH embracing the most extreme new age gender-bending most likely does not exist
Based only on your assumptions, which I find to be wrong and unrealistic.
Quote
and if a person like that does exist, he/she likely would need intense therapy.
Why? Therapy is for mental situations that impair functionality and when its either requested by the patient or required to protect society. Are religious fundamentalists impaired? Do they want to be fixed? Are they a threat to the well being of humanity? Is someone that applies an illogical viewpoint to their religion and gender identity impaired? Do they want to be fixed? Are they a threat to the well being of humanity?
Let's think about what actually constitutes a need for therapy before we throw around that accusation, shall we?
Quote
I could say that I am Mary Queen of Scots but that wouldn't make it true. Most people call that insanity.
And yet, you would still think you're Mary, Queen of Scots. And that person in question would still think they were a woman and therefore meets the requirements for having GID.
Plenty of people would call us insane for thinking we're women on the inside. And yet so many of us find it so difficult to accept other people's abnormal mental states. It would seem almost hypocritical if it weren't human nature to reject what is different.
Quote
As far as motives, you have to ask the creator of the fictitious construct i.e. Sophia.
My motive was to establish a fictional construct that could possibly occur in a real world environment and would meet the requirements to be a woman who would be fine with growing a beard and still be a woman. Shockingly enough, even the presence of a beard does not prevent one from self identifying as a woman. Its merely considered to be a very masculine characteristic and even ugly on women. But it is only a secondary characteristic and one that does occur in GG's too.
There are some girls that can't get SRS for health reasons or because they can't afford it and have to come to terms with having a penis for the rest of their life. Are they less of a woman because they came to terms with that?
An even better example then the religion one is someone who has a skin sensitivity issue and can't get electrolysis, laser or even shave without being in extreme pain. That would mean that said person would be stuck with a beard, and would fit the example at the beginning of this thread while still being a woman.
If the example at the beginning of this thread was a real person, were they asked about why they had a beard? Or was assumptions merely made?
Posted on: August 07, 2007, 03:55:08 PM
Quote from: Rebis on August 07, 2007, 03:46:11 PM
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 05, 2007, 09:29:43 AM
If you met a person who had a mustache and a goatee and ID'd herself as a transwoman, how would you react? And I am not referring to someone who is PRE-transition,this is someone who is supposedly presenting as female.
Actually I have a question that didn't occur to me before. Did this person (if you indeed met a person that ID'd themselves as a transwoman and had a goatee and mustache) tell you how they defined the word transwoman?
There are some people that consider being trans to not be a movement from one sex to another and a mental state of the end state sex, but an actual mixture of gender cues, and physical aspects.
I'm having a hard time expressing this, but I know that Rachael has brought something like this up before. A transsexual that treats being trans as a gender in and of itself. Don't confuse this with androgynes either.
Although, and here's more food for thought, that example could also be an androgyne in denial.
Quote
This is a reminder about what this thread was initially about. I believe that the heart of the post is QuoteIf you met a person who had a mustache and a goatee and ID'd herself as a transwoman, how would you react?
Yeah in the end that really is what the thread is about. I'd react in a surprised manner most likely and ask them what was up. I'm an inquisitive person and I don't find a woman with a beard to be frightening or wrong, just unusual.
Sophia, which religious faith does this fictitious person you created adhere to? Or is this like the Church of We Are Women Even Though We Present Ourselves as Men Congegation of the Anointed.
You can dance on the head of the pin and peddle all the pyscho-babble you want but anyone who thinks she is a woman and wears a beard because of a religious conviction needs her head examined.
Please limit replies to the subject at hand, as highlighted a few messages above by Rebis. Any additional off topic conversation will result in this thread being permanently locked.
How I would react:
I will be honest and state that I would be uncomfortable, depending on the setting. In the leather community there are individuals who CD and have facial hair so I have seen this but never by anyone stating they were TS and FT. In a vanilla setting, I would be nice and try to get to know the person a bit.
At this point, I don't understand why anybody who has transitioned even cares if some person wants to have a beard and call herself TS, especially you melissa90299. My understanding, from what you have said in the past, is that you pass just fine and are only seen as a GG. If that's so, what does it really matter to you whether somebody with a beard identifies as TS? Unless you are still going around telling people you are TS and don't want to be associated with that person, it really shouldn't make a difference one way or another. I haven't been visiting this thread much myself because I really don't care what somebody with a beard wants to do and either way, this person really has little effect on my life.
I can understand somebody who has yet to transition having a concern that when they come out, seeing a person like this may lead people to the incorrect assumption that TS's go around with beards. However, if anybody makes that assumption about TS, it will only make it that much easier for you to pass.
Sometimes in the city I work in I see this one man who wears skirts all the time. I say man because I have no idea what he identifies as since I haven't talked to him, but he appears male. He makes absolutely no effort to look female (although he doesn't have a beard), but I've never see anybody bug him or anything. My guess is that he is dysphoric, but homeless, so he has no money to transition and does what he can to ease the discomfort. As far as I'm concerned, I don't care what anybody wants to look like as long as they are happy living that way.
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 07, 2007, 04:17:49 PM
Sophia, which religious faith does this fictitious person you created adhere to?
None obviously, since they aren't real. The point remains that such a scenario is possible.
Quote
Or is this like the Church of We Are Women Even Though We Present Ourselves as Men Congegation of the Anointed.
Sarcasm is cute but kinda pointless. If you can't dispute the possibility of this happening, just admit so and we'll move on.
Quote
You can dance on the head of the pin and peddle all the pyscho-babble you want
I certainly can. And so far I've made my case and you've yet to break it.
Quote
but anyone who thinks she is a woman and wears a beard because of a religious conviction needs her head examined.
Whether its illogical, crazy or silly is completely irrelevant. It is still possible and perhaps even probable that it could occur. While I personally agree that retaining a beard when you're a woman is a foolish and perhaps even stupid thing to do there are reasons for doing so that do not negate that person's womanhood.
Since them being illogical, stupid or even crazy wasn't what we were discussing I'm assuming that you and me have come to an agreement that a woman can have justification for having a beard and still be a woman (no matter how crazy she might seem for it.)
Are we ready to move on from this tangent now? How we would react to that person, how we would treat them, and why is what we should be discussing.
Posted on: August 07, 2007, 07:11:14 PM
Quote from: Melissa on August 07, 2007, 05:43:12 PM
I can understand somebody who has yet to transition having a concern that when they come out, seeing a person like this may lead people to the incorrect assumption that TS's go around with beards.
Even in that case its really not a big deal. The people that do assume that will ask why I'm not walking around in a beard when I'm dressed as a woman and then I have an opportunity to dispel the assumption they made.
Quote from: Sophia on August 07, 2007, 07:18:39 PM
Even in that case its really not a big deal. The people that do assume that will ask why I'm not walking around in a beard when I'm dressed as a woman and then I have an opportunity to dispel the assumption they made.
Exactly! ;)
this woman is a transwoman right? so id probably treat them like a woman, and carefully enquire as to its existance. and possibly tell them that thier nuts...
R :police:
Melissa90299, so this person is real, correct? has she mentioned why she has a full beard? I mean, can't she afford electrolysis? is she trying to make a point? does she just want to be a "woman" with a beard or what? what is her deal IOW? Did you have a chance to talk to her?
tink :icon_chick:
if she cant afford electrolysis, she could shave... its not impossible...
R :police:
Quote from: Tink on August 07, 2007, 07:40:05 PM
Melissa90299, so this person is real, correct? has she mentioned why she has a full beard? I mean, can't she afford electrolysis? is she trying to make a point? does she just want to be a "woman" with a beard or what? what is her deal IOW? Did you have a chance to talk to her?
tink :icon_chick:
I can't say much due to privacy concerns, I have seen this person but have not talked to her and found out from my girlfriends that she "thinks she is a woman." No one accepts it, they simply think she is a nut. And the women in my circles are very compassionate normally. Everyone just thinks she is a guy who is invading, or trying to invade the inner circle. I was told that when she first started coming around five years ago, there was a great deal more compassion and tolerance. Five years later, she is still presenting as a guy while claiming to be a woman.
People refuse to refer to this person as anything as a guy and refer to this person as he. We can rant and rave all we want but the fact is that the only place people are going to accept a bearded woman is in the circus or at a drag king show.
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 07, 2007, 08:37:14 PM
Quote from: Tink on August 07, 2007, 07:40:05 PM
Melissa90299, so this person is real, correct? has she mentioned why she has a full beard? I mean, can't she afford electrolysis? is she trying to make a point? does she just want to be a "woman" with a beard or what? what is her deal IOW? Did you have a chance to talk to her?
tink :icon_chick:
I can't say much due to privacy concerns, I have seen this person but have not talked to her and found out from my girlfriends that she "thinks she is a woman." No one accepts it, they simply think she is a nut. And the women in my circles are very compassionate normally. Everyone just thinks she is a guy who is invading, or trying to invade the inner circle. I was told that when she first started coming around five years ago, there was a great deal more compassion and tolerance. Five years later, she is still presenting as a guy while claiming to be a woman.
People refuse to refer to this person as anything as a guy and refer to this person as he. We can rant and rave all we want but the fact is that the only place people are going to accept a bearded woman is in the circus or at a drag king show.
I see. Interesting! thanks for explaining hon. :)
tink :icon_chick:
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 07, 2007, 08:37:14 PM
We can rant and rave all we want but the fact is that the only place people are going to accept a bearded woman is in the circus or at a drag king show.
True enough. Social acceptance for a bearded lady is just something I don't expect to see happening anytime soon.
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 05, 2007, 09:29:43 AM
If you met a person who had a mustache and a goatee and ID'd herself as a transwoman, how would you react? And I am not referring to someone who is PRE-transition,this is someone who is supposedly presenting as female.
If she is trans, she is a lazy (or broke) trans. But, I would definitely question her intentions, without a doubt. I mean, broke or not, you can afford a f* razor, give me a break.
I can't stand my facial hair and I am a fanatic about getting it removed, so this is very different from my experience.
Quote from: Melissa on August 07, 2007, 05:43:12 PM
Sometimes in the city I work in I see this one man who wears skirts all the time. I say man because I have no idea what he identifies as since I haven't talked to him, but he appears male. He makes absolutely no effort to look female (although he doesn't have a beard), but I've never see anybody bug him or anything. My guess is that he is dysphoric, but homeless, so he has no money to transition and does what he can to ease the discomfort. As far as I'm concerned, I don't care what anybody wants to look like as long as they are happy living that way.
There are quite a few men who are pushing for the adoption of skirts and such to be acceptable options for men.
I have actually done this myself and it is true. Nobody really bugs you. And in ways it does ease the discomfort but at times it amplifies it as well. Just knowing that you are seen as a guy to everyone is not all that comforting. Remember, it isn't just the clothes that tell us who we are. I wear girls clothes whenever I can. Why? Because thats what girls wear. Its not my fault I was born with a male body.
So this person you have seen could be very well be a normal guy who just happens to like skirts. They exist and I tried to be one myself. It really doesn't help the dysphoria though. If you are a girl and you look like a guy, there will be a problem sooner or later. This person could also be dysphoric as well. Like me. The only time I don't wear a skirt is while at work. I have no plans on transitioning anytime at the moment so I guess, I fit the dysphoric version of the person you have seen.
Oh, and I do shave legs, pits, upper chest area, and face.
Amy
we arnt sayings they look like a guy, they could be 100% passable, but grew a beard for some reason. = wtf country...
R :police:
I don't think it's fair for us to call that bearded woman weird, nutty, disturbed, etc. because she refuses to relinquish her beard.
We are called weird, nutty and disturbed because we refuse to accept our genetic gender.
I myself would feel uncomfortable around that bearded lady, but I have no grounds to say she's a loopy because she has a different way of expressing her gender/identity. Probably ordinary people are as repulsed by us as we may be of the bearded lady.
I thought this forum and the people here would be the last place I'd find such attitudes.
"why don't she shave?", well, I ask, "why don't you come to terms and accept your penis?"
Quote from: Candi Nahasapeemapetilon on August 07, 2007, 09:37:34 PM
I don't think it's fair for us to call that bearded woman weird, nutty, disturbed, etc. because she refuses to relinquish her beard.
We are called weird, nutty and disturbed because we refuse to accept our genetic gender.
I myself would feel uncomfortable around that bearded lady, but I have no grounds to say she's a loopy because she has a different way of expressing her gender/identity. Probably ordinary people are as repulsed by us as we may be of the bearded lady.
I thought this forum and the people here would be the last place I'd find such attitudes.
"why don't she shave?", well, I ask, "why don't you come to terms and accept your penis?"
I don't think anyone here called her weird, nutty or disturbed, the genetic women in my circles think she is nutty and, perhaps, disturbed. They think she is a guy in every way. She acts, looks and, in every way, presents as a guy. People don't get it and resent her trying to enter women only spaces.
Posted on: August 07, 2007, 09:56:22 PM
Quote from: AmyDanielleTG on August 07, 2007, 09:12:35 PM
Quote from: Melissa on August 07, 2007, 05:43:12 PM
Sometimes in the city I work in I see this one man who wears skirts all the time. I say man because I have no idea what he identifies as since I haven't talked to him, but he appears male. He makes absolutely no effort to look female (although he doesn't have a beard), but I've never see anybody bug him or anything. My guess is that he is dysphoric, but homeless, so he has no money to transition and does what he can to ease the discomfort. As far as I'm concerned, I don't care what anybody wants to look like as long as they are happy living that way.
There are quite a few men who are pushing for the adoption of skirts and such to be acceptable options for men.
I have actually done this myself and it is true. Nobody really bugs you. And in ways it does ease the discomfort but at times it amplifies it as well. Just knowing that you are seen as a guy to everyone is not all that comforting. Remember, it isn't just the clothes that tell us who we are. I wear girls clothes whenever I can. Why? Because thats what girls wear. Its not my fault I was born with a male body.
So this person you have seen could be very well be a normal guy who just happens to like skirts.
This person does not wear skirts nor does she act outwardly as a woman in any manner.
Hi,
I have been lurking and reading topics. This caught my eye. Many years ago I knew a REAL person like the topic description. Without knowing the person, many conclusions could be drawn, seeing someone like this. Everyones conclusion so far could be, or maybe correct. One thing is what is the persons "core identity" ?.
The person could be TS or TV\CD or GAY or ?
The person may have emotional issues, which may be compounded with other issues.
I myself, seeing someone like this would come to many conclusions. The real issue is, are they really happy ?. If so, then thats what matters :).
Jennifer
Cute BBS tagline from long ago.
POWMIA...Post-Op Woman Missing Internal Anatomy.
I agree.. its a lad lying to be a transwoman. but then again, few biological women get a stray chin hair now and then, too. But they are the ones who do not include hygiene or personal appearance on their things to do list...unfortunately we are the ones who must suffer the consequences.
What's a transwomen?
Quote from: Berliegh on August 08, 2007, 03:15:51 AM
What's a transwomen?
A girl transformer. Usually transforms into a Hybrid Volkswagon Beetle. Because girls don't need SUV's to compensate for tiny penises.
ROBOTS IN DISGUISE!
:D
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 07, 2007, 09:58:17 PM
Quote from: Candi Nahasapeemapetilon on August 07, 2007, 09:37:34 PM
I don't think it's fair for us to call that bearded woman weird, nutty, disturbed, etc. because she refuses to relinquish her beard.
We are called weird, nutty and disturbed because we refuse to accept our genetic gender.
I myself would feel uncomfortable around that bearded lady, but I have no grounds to say she's a loopy because she has a different way of expressing her gender/identity. Probably ordinary people are as repulsed by us as we may be of the bearded lady.
I thought this forum and the people here would be the last place I'd find such attitudes.
"why don't she shave?", well, I ask, "why don't you come to terms and accept your penis?"
I don't think anyone here called her weird, nutty or disturbed, the genetic women in my circles think she is nutty and, perhaps, disturbed. They think she is a guy in every way. She acts, looks and, in every way, presents as a guy. People don't get it and resent her trying to enter women only spaces.
Posted on: August 07, 2007, 09:56:22 PM
Quote from: AmyDanielleTG on August 07, 2007, 09:12:35 PM
Quote from: Melissa on August 07, 2007, 05:43:12 PM
Sometimes in the city I work in I see this one man who wears skirts all the time. I say man because I have no idea what he identifies as since I haven't talked to him, but he appears male. He makes absolutely no effort to look female (although he doesn't have a beard), but I've never see anybody bug him or anything. My guess is that he is dysphoric, but homeless, so he has no money to transition and does what he can to ease the discomfort. As far as I'm concerned, I don't care what anybody wants to look like as long as they are happy living that way.
There are quite a few men who are pushing for the adoption of skirts and such to be acceptable options for men.
I have actually done this myself and it is true. Nobody really bugs you. And in ways it does ease the discomfort but at times it amplifies it as well. Just knowing that you are seen as a guy to everyone is not all that comforting. Remember, it isn't just the clothes that tell us who we are. I wear girls clothes whenever I can. Why? Because thats what girls wear. Its not my fault I was born with a male body.
So this person you have seen could be very well be a normal guy who just happens to like skirts.
This person does not wear skirts nor does she act outwardly as a woman in any manner.
I was referring to the person Melissa was describing and not the person in the original post of this thread.
Amy
so this person presents male, yet wants to be in female only spaces? sorry, no can do. thats just wrong.
R :police:
so this person presents male, yet wants to be in female only spaces? sorry, no can do. thats just wrong.
should be read as:
so this person born as a genetic male, yet wants to act/dress/behave/be treated as a female in society? sorry, no can do. (i'm close minded). that's just wrong.
Quote from: Candi Nahasapeemapetilon on August 08, 2007, 06:27:45 PM
so this person presents male, yet wants to be in female only spaces? sorry, no can do. thats just wrong.
should be read as:
so this person born as a genetic male, yet wants to act/dress/behave/be treated as a female in society? sorry, no can do. (i'm close minded). that's just wrong.
This person doesn't act, dress or behave like a woman, that's the part that is really mind boggling.
only they dont present as female in the slightest. dont call me closed minded please.
R :police:
Quote from: Candi Nahasapeemapetilon on August 08, 2007, 06:27:45 PM
so this person presents male, yet wants to be in female only spaces? sorry, no can do. thats just wrong.
should be read as:
so this person born as a genetic male, yet wants to act/dress/behave/be treated as a female in society? sorry, no can do. (i'm close minded). that's just wrong.
I lawled.
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 08, 2007, 07:19:23 PM
Quote from: Candi Nahasapeemapetilon on August 08, 2007, 06:27:45 PM
so this person presents male, yet wants to be in female only spaces? sorry, no can do. thats just wrong.
should be read as:
so this person born as a genetic male, yet wants to act/dress/behave/be treated as a female in society? sorry, no can do. (i'm close minded). that's just wrong.
This person doesn't act, dress or behave like a woman, that's the part that is really mind boggling.
Candi was making the irony of that statement known, not making an assessment on the person you described.
My honest assessment with the little I know? This person you described is probably either a man trying to infiltrate mtf transsexual groups for his own reasons,
or
this is an mtf transsexual that is so severely closeted in regular day to day life that she needs to keep a veneer of maleness over her to keep up the facade with her regular friends. And only feels safe to reveal her womanhood for you folks.
If the former, then by all means your friends should be suspicious and approach him with caution.
If the latter your friends should be ashamed of themselves for making her courage even more reduced to finally come out.
Quote from: Sophia on August 08, 2007, 09:42:30 PM
Quote from: Candi Nahasapeemapetilon on August 08, 2007, 06:27:45 PM
so this person presents male, yet wants to be in female only spaces? sorry, no can do. thats just wrong.
should be read as:
so this person born as a genetic male, yet wants to act/dress/behave/be treated as a female in society? sorry, no can do. (i'm close minded). that's just wrong.
I lawled.
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 08, 2007, 07:19:23 PM
Quote from: Candi Nahasapeemapetilon on August 08, 2007, 06:27:45 PM
so this person presents male, yet wants to be in female only spaces? sorry, no can do. thats just wrong.
should be read as:
so this person born as a genetic male, yet wants to act/dress/behave/be treated as a female in society? sorry, no can do. (i'm close minded). that's just wrong.
This person doesn't act, dress or behave like a woman, that's the part that is really mind boggling.
Candi was making the irony of that statement known, not making an assessment on the person you described.
My honest assessment with the little I know? This person you described is probably either a man trying to infiltrate mtf transsexual groups for his own reasons,
or
this is an mtf transsexual that is so severely closeted in regular day to day life that she needs to keep a veneer of maleness over her to keep up the facade with her regular friends. And only feels safe to reveal her womanhood for you folks.
If the former, then by all means your friends should be suspicious and approach him with caution.
If the latter your friends should be ashamed of themselves for making her courage even more reduced to finally come out.
I didn't say anything about mtf transseual groups, interesting that you would make that assumption. For the record, I haven't attended any MtF groups in a couple years. I mentioned women only spaces. I see that you finally have come around to the pretty obvious fact that a person so described would need intervention. I really have no idea where this person is coming from. Every human being desrves compassion and respect, as a completely transition and adapted post-op woman, I will reach out to this person should the opportunity arise.
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 08, 2007, 11:35:52 PM
I didn't say anything about mtf transseual groups, interesting that you would make that assumption.
I thought you did actually. So more a misunderstanding then an assumption. Nothing interesting about it.
Quote
For the record, I haven't attended any MtF groups in a couple years. I mentioned women only spaces.
Ah, I see. This doesn't dissuade my earlier point though.
Quote
I see that you finally have come around to the pretty obvious fact that a person so described would need intervention.
Odd, I never recalled agreeing with you.
In fact I specifically mentioned two possible causes to this behavior, and neither requires intervention, although one does require wariness.
1: an mtf transsexual that is so severely closeted in regular day to day life that she needs to keep a veneer of maleness over her to keep up the facade with her regular friends, but feels safe with your group.
2: a male trying to infiltrate (whether its mtf groups or just gg groups is irrelevant)
Only option 2 requires the wariness. Option one is really more up to the transsexual herself to figure out. So where am I stating that this person obviously needs intervention?
Quote
I really have no idea where this person is coming from.
You could attempt to find out, as opposed to letting your friends label her or him as creepy or dangerous and labeling her or him as loopy or crazy yourself. I certainly would try to find out just due to simple curiosity.
Quote
Every human being desrves compassion and respect, as a completely transition and adapted post-op woman, I will reach out to this person should the opportunity arise.
I'm glad.
I smell a fairy with a lock (and a key) coming soon to a theater thread near you.
;)
tink :icon_chick:
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 07, 2007, 11:39:38 AM
Since your post followed mine, I presumed you were accusing me of judging.
I am not judging anyone, I do question the validity of the fictitious person who would cling without question to archaic, barbaric and outmoded laws while embracing new age concepts of gender-bending. It defies logic.
This has been a very difficult, yet illuminating thread. It's also very hard to accuse
anyone here of being judgmental or bigoted, since those are
very loaded terms for a group that is too often the victims of our cultural discrimination and prejudice.
That said, I can see a very plausible argument for people (esp in early or mid transition) where it simply isn't a choice but to maintain a beard (because of family, cultural, or religious reasons), yet desperately wanting to be something different. So yes, I *can* see the possibility of such a seeming dichotomy.
Yet, I suspect that isn't the case; it might simply be a gender-bending/in your face statement about our cultural roles/assumptions/etc. Personally, I can get behind that myself, as I've been a cultural gender-bender for 30+ years. Either way, the bottom line is simply, that without asking,
I don't know why this person has made this choice!
That aside, all of these specific arguments pale beside the fundamental question of what IS acceptance, and
where do we each draw those boundaries?I see only one consistent aspect of this thread; that being, are we willing to accept a position/action that isn't popular, or even (to many of us, myself included) makes sense?
We each can only make our own decisions, either privately or publicly, as to just how "open" we are to accepting the decisions of others. That makes no one either wrong or right, but merely human.
For myself, in order to be true to my
own fundamental believes, I have to err on the side of acceptance/questioning... i.e., to accept, (just as I would want others to accept
my decisions). If needed, I can inquire as to why the person chose an option I don't understand or question.
Meaning no offence to anyone - bearded or not - and accepting of the bearded ones or not.
Scott
Even in The Netherlands where society is very tolerant, transwomen with beards wouldn't be welcome in women only spaces.
Quote from: Sophia on August 09, 2007, 01:37:58 AM
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 08, 2007, 11:35:52 PM
I didn't say anything about mtf transseual groups, interesting that you would make that assumption.
I thought you did actually. So more a misunderstanding then an assumption. Nothing interesting about it.
Quote
For the record, I haven't attended any MtF groups in a couple years. I mentioned women only spaces.
Ah, I see. This doesn't dissuade my earlier point though.
Quote
I see that you finally have come around to the pretty obvious fact that a person so described would need intervention.
Odd, I never recalled agreeing with you.
In fact I specifically mentioned two possible causes to this behavior, and neither requires intervention, although one does require wariness.
1: an mtf transsexual that is so severely closeted in regular day to day life that she needs to keep a veneer of maleness over her to keep up the facade with her regular friends, but feels safe with your group.
2: a male trying to infiltrate (whether its mtf groups or just gg groups is irrelevant)
Only option 2 requires the wariness. Option one is really more up to the transsexual herself to figure out. So where am I stating that this person obviously needs intervention?
Quote
I really have no idea where this person is coming from.
You could attempt to find out, as opposed to letting your friends label her or him as creepy or dangerous and labeling her or him as loopy or crazy yourself. I certainly would try to find out just due to simple curiosity.
Quote
Every human being desrves compassion and respect, as a completely transition and adapted post-op woman, I will reach out to this person should the opportunity arise.
I'm glad.
That you incorrectly assumed that I was talking about MTF groups says something about your perspective, like it or not. You stated that this person needs help, you said that in the context of thinking that she was attempting to infiltrate MTF groups and that others in the group should help her.
You seem to think that I can control how other people feel about this person. You should learn that that is a foolhardy mission. As far as invading this person's space just to satisfy my own curiosity, as much as I would like to do that, that would be the wrong thing to do, right off the bat. It would be rude.
This may sound elitist but I think there are two completely different perspectives here. One, from someone who is just starting out on the journey and the other, from someone who has completed it.
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 09, 2007, 09:46:00 AM
That you incorrectly assumed that I was talking about MTF groups says something about your perspective, like it or not.
A blip in my memory says something about my perspective? I'd probably think it would say that I misunderstand people's meaning sometimes. But perhaps you felt the need to assume that I would purposely try to make wild guesses about the situation based on assumptions.
Had I not completely and truly thought you had written that your group was a group of MTF transsexuals I wouldn't of made any such mention. Now that the more silly part of this conversation is past and the mistake corrected, we can move on to the real gist of this discussion.
Quote
You stated that this person needs help, you said that in the context of thinking that she was attempting to infiltrate MTF groups and that others in the group should help her.
If a person is attempting to infiltrate any group, be it MTF, all female, ninjas, Mormons or freemasons then one should use wariness when dealing with them because their motivations may be dangerous or harmful.
Could you please find and reference the post in which I said that they definitely required help or intervention? I gave you two options for what could be happening. One required you to be on guard. The other did not. I gave no other suggestions then that.
Quote
You seem to think that I can control how other people feel about this person. You should learn that that is a foolhardy mission.
You can't obviously. However you can make your opinion known if the group is violating your own personal morals. Its not the easiest path and it does require a certain level of social courage to do. However it is the right path and certainly has aided me in being able be at peace with myself.
Call me foolhardy or idealistic, but I do not bend my morals for anyone. Not even the fear of social anger from a group of friends.
Quote
As far as invading this person's space just to satisfy my own curiosity, as much as I would like to do that, that would be the wrong thing to do, right off the bat. It would be rude.
Because of course, it isn't rude to talk behind a person's back.
And:
It depends on how you do it actually. Anyone with the slightest amount of social knowledge will be ready to accept the fact that beards on a woman are not readily accepted and there will be resistance and at best curiosity from other people.
If the woman in question is not ready for friendly inquiries into something of major social impact that they are doing purposefully, then they do need to be committed for endangering their mental state in that way.
And really, you could just be dealing with an iconoclast too. Someone that enjoys violating social norms to see reactions and test social waters. Your inquiry would not be taken as rude by such a person, but likely accepted with gratitude and glee.
Quote
This may sound elitist but I think there are two completely different perspectives here. One, from someone who is just starting out on the journey and the other, from someone who has completed it.
It does sound elitist. Which is probably why I consider it so easy to disregard.
I do not intend to offend you with this but its necessary to be blunt. The claim to authority on social operations as a woman simply because you've been in the running as a woman longer really holds no water with me. Experience is only as good as the lessons learned from it. And unless I feel confident you not only learned the right lessons from your experience but also learned the dynamics behind the things that shaped your experiences I'm unlikely to consider you an authority on anything.
And even further, an authority on a subject is not always right and an inexperienced opinion is not always wrong in comparison. To assume otherwise is the height of folly.
i thought this person was tying to get into womens only spaces, not m2f groups?
being so externally obviously male, they should use presentation apropriate spaces, i mean, even before i went ft, i still used the mens room if i was presenting androgynously, and even then ANDROGYNEOUS, not sporting a santa chin wig...
this person presents male, and wishes to use things like the ladies room, changing room, and thats just not workable as they are not even trying to present as female, regardless of the beard.
i think thier slightly wobbly in the grey stuff dept...
R :police:
Quote from: Rachael on August 09, 2007, 04:01:54 PM
i thought this person was tying to get into womens only spaces, not m2f groups?
I misread.
Quote
being so externally obviously male, they should use presentation apropriate spaces, i mean, even before i went ft, i still used the mens room if i was presenting androgynously, and even then ANDROGYNEOUS, not sporting a santa chin wig...
this person presents male, and wishes to use things like the ladies room, changing room, and thats just not workable as they are not even trying to present as female, regardless of the beard.
It certainly would be upsetting to people for them not to. If they're an iconoclast though, then that's exactly why they're doing it.
Quote
i think thier slightly wobbly in the grey stuff dept...
Or have a really awesome (and somewhat odd) sense of humor.
LOL How much lack of wisdom does it take to disregard the views of someone who has achieved all of that which that person hopes to achieve?
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 09, 2007, 04:31:51 PM
LOL How much lack of wisdom does it take to disregard the views of someone who has achieved all of that which that person hopes to achieve?
Not as much of a lack of wisdom as it takes to assume that experience makes one the ultimate authority even if one hasn't learned the right things from it.
:)
how do you mean mellissa? do they not listen to you or something?
R :police:
Quote from: Sophia on August 09, 2007, 04:33:29 PM
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 09, 2007, 04:31:51 PM
LOL How much lack of wisdom does it take to disregard the views of someone who has achieved all of that which that person hopes to achieve?
Not as much of a lack of wisdom as it takes to assume that experience makes one the ultimate authority...
:)
[/quote]
Again, you are attributing things to me that I never said.
Quoteif one hasn't learned the right things from it.
LOL now who were you saying is claiming to be the ultimate authority?
Last night this person that I know who goes by the name of Susan wants to be considered female and yet this person has scruffy, dirty beard. Also has the longest ear hairs(ewwwwww) I have ever seen. Says that the company will let them dress in a dress and comments on the blue dress that she wants to wear. She was saying this in front of about 10 people, all part of the GLBT. I try not to say anything as this really disgusts me. I feel really bad that I have this prejudice, but I can't help it. This person does not try to make any statement of feminity at all. I understand there are women who do have some facial hair and most try to take care of it. Shaving equipment does not cost that much. She just really grossed me out when talking about this blue dress, I almost went blind in my mind.
I have met some really hard looking trans people and I get along with them just fine. They try to look the gender that they are on the inside.
I just had to vent a little. Sorry for my bigotry here.
Sheila
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 09, 2007, 04:39:21 PM
Again, you are attributing things to me that I never said.
Odd, I seem to recall you claiming that your experience made you right after failing to prove yourself right using logic and reasoning. Perhaps I misunderstood you and you weren't claiming that your experience made you correct? If so, why were you so convinced that you were right and I was wrong about the situation and why did you reference your experience?
Clarity is very important when communicating in text.
Quote
Quoteif one hasn't learned the right things from it.
LOL now who were you saying is claiming to be the ultimate authority?
I never said what those were you know. Probably because I'm not an authority on them.
:)
Now who's putting things in who's mouth?
'It's getting hot in here, so take off all your clothes
I am getting so hot, I'm gonna take my clooothes off'
But no really, it is getting heated in here. Thread locked, AC turned up. May be unlocked once it cools down in here.