After my drunken post (See "What are you"), I went out with some friends to walk it off. Now the same girl who asked me that question got to to talking with me about trans issues in general. During this she brought up a good point. The reason Gays and Lesbians are much more accepted now is that they, overall, are more visible. Now that doesn't mean that trans people are completely invisible. But for the most part we are only visible in our transition. After this period we try and live in 'stealth'.
But it could be that us living in stealth is actually one of the reasons we are not getting as far as fast with legal rights and society respect. She said that it might actually be detrimental to our cause to be living in stealth. She said that this does not mean to go around proclaiming it, but to be more open about it.
Personally I have mixed feelings about this. I did strive to be invisible in plain sight, and I think I have succeeded. I do want to come out to my students one day and be there for LGBT youth who might need a sympathetic ear. But I want to do that 'later', and for now and immediate future just enjoy being able to be a normal girl. I'm not sure being open about my trans status would do anything useful at this point, but her idea did sound like it had something to it.
So what do you girls/guys think of this? ???
Some of us transition to live "normal" lives as women (or men in the case of FTM's). I personally find it very offensive when some members of the TS community think or imply that every TS person should proclaim their transsexuality in order to fight for equal rights.
No one who has gone through the pain and misery of transition should feel that they owe *things* to anyone. Most of us have lost jobs, our family, our spouses, our children, our friends, and many more things in order to achieve a sense of balance in our lives. At the same time, some of us have built a completely new life after transition; we have careers, new friends, perhaps a spouse.. a totally new world/life in other words, and I'm sorry but it is very unfair to suggest to give all that up or jeorpardize it for a cause (whatever this cause may be).
Also let's keep in mind that in order to be an activist for TS rights, one doesn't need to expose oneself to the world and advertise one's transsexuality. The bottom line, however, is this: Being "stealth" or "out and proud" is (or should be) an entirely personal decision without any expectations or obligations.
tink :icon_chick:
There are many reasons for being stealth, my own personal one is to make sure that I am able to provide for my family. I have nine years experience in a field that is predominately male, so to just outright declare myself transgendered one day pretty much puts the death knell on my job. If I were single it wouldnt be so bad, but providing for a spouse and child comes first for me. Eventually one day I wont be stealth, but the timing for me hasnt revealed itself. Good question though!
I think that I've been very fortunate in my own particular case. I guess you might say that I'm invisible in plain sight. Personally I do not proclaim my TS past to anyone and I try and live as stealthy a life as I can, however I am still very active in my community, so it can be done. One thing that I have going for me is that I came out at work and supported 100%, even the school board and schools who I deal with on a daily basis support me.
But we need to remember that by simply being a member of Susan's is going a long way in fighting for our rights. As new members join asking questions and getting advice and answers, they in turn become armed with the knowledge that helped us gain what we have. For example passing on to others how to come out to their employer serves to encourage them to do it and as more and more come out, more and more companies are going to be forced to deal with the issue, and as more and more companies are forced to deal with the issue the more exposure we get.
Just my thoughts.
Steph
I admire those who go public. I really do. Generally, they do a great job in representing the rest of us. I can only give them praise even if they do not project my unique perspective.
I live in stealth except for on this board. I even used the pen name "Cindi Jones" to write my book.
Does it hurt us to live in stealth? No. Fortunately, we get more publicity than gay people do anyway. We seem to threaten every thread of our society for some reason, so our plight is much more "news worthy".
What we need to do is do the best we can to live happy fulfilling lives. I am thrilled that there are several members here who are in a similar position as me. Even though I've led my life as a female for over twenty years, it's still nice to talk to someone about issues that no one else in my life can ever hope to understand.
I also like to help other people as well. So if I can do that from the comfort of my home over the internet, all I have vested is a little of my time. I can honestly say that members of this site have been a great help to me over the past year.
Cindi
Quote from: Tink on January 24, 2008, 10:16:00 PM
Some of us transition to live "normal" lives as women (or men in the case of FTM's). I personally find it very offensive when some members of the TS community think or imply that every TS person should proclaim their transsexuality in order to fight for equal rights.
No one who has gone through the pain and misery of transition should feel that they owe *things* to anyone. Most of us have lost jobs, our family, our spouses, our children, our friends, and many more things in order to achieve a sense of balance in our lives. At the same time, some of us have built a completely new life after transition; we have careers, new friends, perhaps a spouse.. a totally new world/life in other words, and I'm sorry but it is very unfair to suggest to give all that up or jeorpardize it for a cause (whatever this cause may be).
Also let's keep in mind that in order to be an activist for TS rights, one doesn't need to expose oneself to the world and advertise one's transsexuality. The bottom line, however, is this: Being "stealth" or "out and proud" is (or should be) an entirely personal decision without any expectations or obligations.
tink :icon_chick:
There's a middle road between stealth and out-and-loud. I've built a new career and a new life but I'm not concerned about anyone finding out. I consider myself an activist but not in an in-your-face way. I volunteer for an employment program that helps TG people find jobs. I'm on a committee that's formulating health care policy for TGs with a major healthcare provider. It doesn't have to be an either or thing. I'm stealth in some circumstances but out and proud in others.
I think it can hurt some to be in stealth. And I mean above that as a community, but on a personal level.
If you are stealth, what do you do when questions about x period in life pre-transition come up? Make something up? Switch topic? I'd rather be vague enough, and if someone's clever enough to 'guess', then I don't mind being open about it. I guess it depends where and with whom. I don't shout it for certain, and I pass...so I only say it to certain people, mainly friends, when it seems appropriate and safe.
I would always tell a significant other, at least pre-op, and probably post-op, too. But that's my personal choice (post-op anyway). If someone is asexual (and still has a partner, ie not being aromantic too), they can probably withhold the information too, if they want, since it has much less impact if at all.
Quote from: Claire de Lune on January 24, 2008, 10:57:16 PM
There's a middle road between stealth and out-and-loud. I've built a new career and a new life but I'm not concerned about anyone finding out. I consider myself an activist but not in an in-your-face way. I volunteer for an employment program that helps TG people find jobs. I'm on a committee that's formulating health care policy for TGs with a major healthcare provider. It doesn't have to be an either or thing. I'm stealth in some circumstances but out and proud in others.
And that is
your choice so kuddos to you!
tink :icon_chick:
Quote from: redfish on January 24, 2008, 11:25:51 PM
The power is YOOOURS
Not sure what is worse, the quote or the fact I understood it. ;) ;D ;)
If I came out and were to be my overly flamboyant self, people would be absolutley shocked, probably angered, and I'm not ready to deal with it. I need the subtle changes that stealth provides. It sounds strange but it's true.
Re: Does it hurt us to be in stealth?
No! for me it's the norm...
Quote from: Tink on January 24, 2008, 10:16:00 PM
Some of us transition to live "normal" lives as women (or men in the case of FTM's). I personally find it very offensive when some members of the TS community think or imply that every TS person should proclaim their transsexuality in order to fight for equal rights.
No one who has gone through the pain and misery of transition should feel that they owe *things* to anyone. Most of us have lost jobs, our family, our spouses, our children, our friends, and many more things in order to achieve a sense of balance in our lives. At the same time, some of us have built a completely new life after transition; we have careers, new friends, perhaps a spouse.. a totally new world/life in other words, and I'm sorry but it is very unfair to suggest to give all that up or jeorpardize it for a cause (whatever this cause may be).
Also let's keep in mind that in order to be an activist for TS rights, one doesn't need to expose oneself to the world and advertise one's transsexuality. The bottom line, however, is this: Being "stealth" or "out and proud" is (or should be) an entirely personal decision without any expectations or obligations.
tink :icon_chick:
i concord ;)
Quote from: Steph on January 24, 2008, 10:48:11 PM
But we need to remember that by simply being a member of Susan's is going a long way in fighting for our rights. As new members join asking questions and getting advice and answers, they in turn become armed with the knowledge that helped us gain what we have.
Steph
exactly so :)
When I die, I want to be remembered for what I have achieved as a woman, not as a transsexual.
Stealth is a choice, not everyone wants it, not everyone can even achieve it, but I for one respect people who live successful and happy lives as women (in stealth) or openly declare their past or actively campaign for TS rights.
In my opion both are important for societies acceptance of Transsexualism.
Rebecca
Quote from: BCL on January 25, 2008, 07:45:33 AM
When I die, I want to be remembered for what I have achieved as a woman, not as a transsexual.
Rebecca
right on rebecca ;)
The issue of stealth, to me, is the catch-22. It's not about being identified or recognized as being transwoman, that's your past, it's about being a woman, and while it's the argument why it's important to be stealth, it's also the argrument we haven't progressed in the medical community, the media, the law, and the world in general as women.
I would argue if all the stealth (trans)women became public, it would show the entire breadth of the community as people just like everyone else. It would give the case to redefine it in the DSM and WPATH so more could transistion with health insurance coverage. It would almost become a yawner, "Oh, another one, ok, and?" to the world.
My argument is that the sheer numbers would show the world, especially the medical community, we're not abnormal and worth curing or treating for a dysphoria, but simply someone who needs medically supervised care to transistion under our decisions and direction with full responsibility for our decisions and actions without "approval" to be something we're mislabelled.
But the problem is the short-term where it would take time to show we are also different from the other groups under the transgender umbrella. This may be something the other groups don't like, but it could provide the avenue for pre-op transpeople to control their own life. There still needs to be protections under the Hate Crime law and ENDA similar to LGB's currently have, which normalizes us with them - do I hear an "Awwww..."?
The other side is that coming out makes your past there in view of everyone. But maybe that's a good thing as it removes the fear of the discovery of it by many stealth transpeople and it allows us to use it as our lives, not hidden in our mind. We become whole people, as shown when public transpeople show they're whole normal life. Sorta' like someone doing a background check, "I asking about Ms. Jane Smith, formerly Mr John Smith,..."
All this said, I think the many stealth - agreeing with the reasons in the past to do so - have hurt the community and its progress. But I also understand and agree it's fair to allow a transperson to make that decision. But today, your past isn't all that hidden anymore, so being outed isn't if but when, whether it's for a background check, a medical exam or something else, you will be outed some day in your life.
I guess I would ask, since it could be estimated that there are tens of thousands living stealth lives, what would happen if most, preferablly nearly all, came out? wouldn't it surprise the hell out of all the critics, "Holy sh.., I didn't realize there were so many as normal women." Wouldn't that be good?
Look at the many now public (trans)women and mulitply that by 8-10 times. Logic says it would be the best decision for all us. Human nature says it wouldn't for each of us. And that's the catch-22 we all individually and collective face. We can either continue down the road fighting for something we know is true but can't prove due to all the stealth women, or all of us step into the light and show we're just one of everyone.
--Susan--
You're right Susan, a real catch-22.
I agree with the concept of stealth because I am a woman, I don't have to try all that hard to pass despite my physical shortcomings because i'm not pretending to be what i'm not. I am being myself.
That being said, if all the transexuals of this country came out publically, it might make our lives, as a whole, far easier. Or even the world over.
But the problem is that not many will want to take this risk. I for one would hesitate because of all the girls who knew me as a girl and had me in the woman's restroom. Or the guys that had hit on me. For me to come out might have legal and social consequences that could shatter the life i'm just starting to get under control and be happy about. This is just me living as a woman for two weeks, what about those of us living as a guy or girl for months or years? it could potentially be worse.
If we did this, it will hurt alot of people. It will almost be a promise that the situation would get bad before it got better. That's my take on it at least.
You are never stealth from those who knew you in the past. I certainly don't go out of my way to yell it on the streets "Hey, I'm a transitioned woman", but I don't refuse to answer any questions if they are asked.
They just had a mini reunion of my high school class of '62 (from a midwest town, but held in California), I had three different people from my class ask me to come even though they knew all about me from my profile on the school website. It didn't worry them.
Mostly I just "live" my life. I'm sorry if that doesn't help advance the cause in the news, I can't help it, this is who I am.
Sarah L.
Susan,
I don't think that even if all of us rose up it would change anything,
except hurt us. Once someone knows your TS and not a women,
they treat you differently, most can't help it. Being treated as
an other by most, instead of a women, would crush most TS and
would seem to nullify their transition.
Politicians know exactly how many of us there are. Too few to bother...
TS are at most a fraction of percentage of the US electorat.
I don't consider myself in "stealth". I live my life the way I thought it should have been lived and yes, people know that I changed genders, but they are OK with it. They treat me like the lady I want to be treated like. I have had people make mistakes about my gender and call me he or some masculine pronoun and they appologize to me in the next sentence. I have people talking to me about trans issues and the next day ask me if I had my children the natural way or by C-section then they think a while and say I'm sorry. I don't carry a sign around my neck telling everyone I'm TS, but I will not deny my past. I still go into a conversation with men and talk about my past and what I did as a male. I'm just not ashamed of who I am. If you want to hide in the closet that is your own business, but I prefer to be out of the closet and free from all those who might come up and say, I know your secret and fear them. Like I said before, I live my life as the lady I have always wanted to be and no one ever bothers me and if they don't know well that is all right and if they do know that is all right, too. Just have fun with life, don't sweat the small stuff. It is hard enough to make ends meet and to have this hanging over your head all the time, its crazy.
Sheila
I personally have to be in stealth mode for 3 more years because of my occupation and my desire to retire since I am so close. Even after I retire for this job and move on with a real life I am not sure how open I will be about who I am ....or was. If somebody ask, I would tell them if I felt I could trust them. I basically am the same person now I will be then with the exception of the changes from transition, however I also plan to move as soon as I retire and start a new life somewhere else where nobody knows me. So I guess in a way I will always be in stealth because I don't feel its worth mentioning if I don't have to because I have already lost enough friends because they could not handle the truth. My parents have both passed and my sister is alright with it. Rest of my family I talk to maybe twice a year so not like they are really in my life.
I'm just going to answer this strictly speaking.
Your lesbian friend is right about how the gay and lesbian (and throught them bisexual community) is much more accepted because they are open and visable.
Does it hurt us to be stealth?
It slows down the process of acceptance.
Which realy effects the next batch so to speak.
The kids who are trans right now but have not come out yet or maybe have not begun to transition.
I am out at my school.
I am treated normally.
even the teacher who I thought I might have some issue with did some research on her own and now seems fine.
That is thousands of people a quarter who see me and have no issue with it.
They see me as normal.
So we have an industry specific school. We are a comercial arts school.
We are also a small industry. People tend to know one another and know ones work.
Matt Stone the creator of South park came out of my school, many movie and film poster creators and many famous works were created by normal grads like me.
So when people in my field have no problem with me that pretty much means my field has no problem with me. And that I can expect it to stay that way since I will likely be working with those fellow students arround me in the field. My sienior classmates will likely be my bosses, the new students will likely be working under me.
So the fact that they are so accepting is realy quite huge.
It normalizes my behavior on my campus and in our industry.
So one person can make a huge difference.
I show up on the bus, I take two busses and a mall shuttle to get there and people see me.
I am out and full time arround my community and everywhere, so every time I get a slice of pizza, or make a shopping trip, I am making a difference to the people who see me. If it took some getting used to the first time they won't be so thrown back the second. and so on. And that effects those who come after me too.
So it is very important.
I think being seen is the most helpful and visable way to make an immidiate difference.
Also the most effective.
I think people are afraid, because they have filled their minds with what could happen.
I want to point out to people that 90% of that is in your head. And the other ten percent isn't as bad as we think it is going to be as Wing Walker once put it.
This is so true.
People realy do get over it.
The other thing that helps is to fit in normaly in natrual conversations.
I was on the mall shuttle the other day and this driver was realy new or bad or both and kept hitting the brakes hard and sending us all off our ballance.
People started to make jokes about it and one guy kept going on to those around him and since I was near I added (in a humourous tone)"well, at least we know the breaks work!" this got a laugh out of several people and others nodded in the rediculousness of it all.
This kinda thing is important because it shows that we are normal people too.
Misery loves company and we are all being tossed arround by some driver on the mall bus shuttle.
Being out doesn't mean being visable like a silent statue.
It also means ingaging others like normal.
My thoughts.
Sara
If someone can be in 'stealth' then I do not see any problems with him or her doing so. It does seem that for the guys it is never that much of an issue anyhow. They just do it and don't ask very many questions like this.
I have wondered about the differences in those approaches. Women seem more inclined to want stealth and to argue about whether or not it is a valuable approach. The women also seem more concerned about 'political' reasons pro and con for and against stealth.
I didn't go through the things I have in order to be a political person. I vote. I sometimes will talk politics -- in fact I just had a discussion this morning with a colleague about the presidential election and how we are both excited about the prospect of USA being without a bush in the oval office after next January.
She and I both like Hilary and Barak. Discussed John Edwards and John McCain as well.
Ummm, we didn't discuss how the candidates feel about LTBG issues though. Nor would we I expect. She does know I am a lesbian, but that simply was not part of the discussion. Why would it be?
She did talk about her cold and fever. I talked about mine last week. She didn't mention whether or not she had had a hysterectomy. And I didn't discuss my medical history either.
Just two women chatting for an hour as neither of our clients managed to come for their appointments.
Why is that so very difficult for women who were formerly or are currently considered 'trans' to do?
If someone wants to be an advocate in a public fashion, I have no problem with that. That's them, their comfort. If I do not, why does it really matter?
Actions and their lack or perceived lack are just that: perceptions of the individual. Is there some difficulty in that that I simply fail to fathom?
Nichole
Quote from: Nichole W. on January 25, 2008, 02:44:14 PM
I didn't go through the things I have in order to be a political person. I vote. I sometimes will talk politics --
If someone wants to be an advocate in a public fashion, I have no problem with that. That's them, their comfort. If I do not, why does it really matter?
Nichole
you didn't? why not? i want you to march the streets for me, i want you to tattoo the trans label on your forehead, i want you to tell the entire population you're ts & deal with the consequences! ;)
you know what the problem is nichole? that everybody wants you to do what they do! baloney! it isn't happening in this lifetime! ;)
Aww, and none of us who are out or activists are going through that are we?
While talking to my therapist he mentioned that the population of the US that is transgendered is possibly as high as 10%. That may not seem like a large amount at first, but it is huge. I do admit, if every transgendered person came out at once in a movement to demand civil liberties it would be quite a sight.
A famous feminist once said somthing that realy upset the status quo at the time: "Women have rights. The whole lot. All we have to do is take them."
I will repeat that statement as the same applys to us: Trans people have rights. The whole lot. All we have to do is take them.
We have rights. All of them. All we have to do is take them.
The only thing stopping us is us.
300 million people in the US and that is just counting registered citizens.
Ten percent of that is 30 million.
All we have to do is take them people.
That's it.
Sara
Quote from: Natasha on January 25, 2008, 06:01:53 PM
you didn't? why not? i want you to march the streets for me, i want you to tattoo the trans label on your forehead, i want you to tell the entire population you're ts & deal with the consequences! ;)
you know what the problem is nichole? that everybody wants you to do what they do! baloney! it isn't happening in this lifetime! ;)
Ya know, Tasha, I don't even think it's a problem, sweetie. Well, not for me. It's their problem, because you're right; it's not happening in this lifetime.
Nichole
----------------------------------------
Let me get this right. 10% that's a few magnitudes higher than even the most remarkable speculations of Lynn Conway.
There's almost as many trans-people in USA as there are African-Americans? :laugh: :laugh:
I imagine that therapist should stick with therapy and leave statistics to the statisticians and economists.
As for Sarah's opine: And who will be leading all these T-people in this campaign? I can only imagine!!
Besides 10% and 52% are rather far apart as percentages. And even at that how many women embraced this anonymous feminist's platform and took to snatching power?
I truly do appreciate activists. For instance, it would be nice if Marti Abernathy were to have joined this forum and decided to weigh-in with some commentary about activism. I enjoy reading her ideas and commentaries. But see, I know something of her history. She's paid some dues in her life; and she's earned my respect, affection and admiration if not always my agreement.
Nichole
P.S.
What if the issue is NOT about gender at all? Except for the 'transgendered.'
What if, for transsexuals, the problem is about 'sex' -- a physical problem that has nothing to do with 'gender?' Could that be why Mr. Prince felt a need to destroy us? To make the world safe for CDs and TVs, gender-queers? Ya gotta wonder.
That would sorta take this entire thread into a kinda permanent 'moot' state wouldn't it?
Just a thought.
N~
Quote from: Nichole W. on January 25, 2008, 08:15:59 PM
Quote from: Natasha on January 25, 2008, 06:01:53 PM
you didn't? why not? i want you to march the streets for me, i want you to tattoo the trans label on your forehead, i want you to tell the entire population you're ts & deal with the consequences! ;)
you know what the problem is nichole? that everybody wants you to do what they do! baloney! it isn't happening in this lifetime! ;)
Ya know, Tasha, I don't even think it's a problem, sweetie. Well, not for me. It's their problem, because you're right; it's not happening in this lifetime.
Nichole
Ditto! ;D Oh boy, you girls made my night! >:D ;D
tink :icon_chick:
LOL :laugh:
You act like a leader is nessicary! :laugh:
All that is needed is the will to act!
Individually!
I do it!
It's not that hard once you get over the initial fear.
:laugh:
Oh I don't think "fear" is the word. It's called "completion"...done, over, end, finish, finito! When your transition is over, it is done with. Your TS history becomes your past and you reach a sense of peace of mind and balance which you don't want to jeopardize for any reason. At least that is my take on it!
tink :icon_chick:
Quote from: Sarah on January 25, 2008, 08:26:54 PM
LOL :laugh:
You act like a leader is nessicary! :laugh:
All that is needed is the will to act!
Individually!
I do it!
It's not that hard once you get over the initial fear.
:laugh:
No, Sarah, I don't think a leader is necessary at all. I don't doubt that some are hoping to be acclaimed "Leader" though.
As for 'fear?' It's nice you don't have it.
Just one question more, hon. You've been actively transitioning for how long?
The length of time is not meant to speak to what you say. It doesn't. You may well be right. Rather just to see how long a drink of transitioning you've taken thus far.
N~
I most certianly have it! :laugh:
I wish you wouldn't put words in my mouth.
I do know how to use my will though.
Transition?
I am out an full time.
Why is that any of your business?
Sara
Quote from: Sarah on January 25, 2008, 08:56:10 PM
Length of transition?
I don't know what a transition is quite frankly.
I am full time and out.
That was exactly the point.
N~
And an answer here, perhaps?
Quote from: Nichole W. on January 25, 2008, 08:15:59 PM
P.S. What if the issue is NOT about gender at all? Except for the 'transgendered.' What if, for transsexuals, the problem is about 'sex' -- a physical problem that has nothing to do with 'gender?'
N~
Uhh, you lost me entirely.
'Sex' and 'Gender' are not the same thing.
I am pretty sure everyone here knows that.
So what was your point?
How is that on topic?
Posted on: January 25, 2008, 08:09:26 PM
See, the thing of it is, I think what some people are doing is attempting to explain the actions of those who are stealth.
An "appologist" to use the classic litterary definition.
What they are not doing is addressing the points.
"why" people are stealth is not the topic of this thread.
"does it hurt us" is.
"Why" is not nessicarily relavant to whether the consequences of doing so are harmful or hurtful.
We are discussing the consequences, the Effect. Not the Cause.
There are no doubt very good reasons why some people go stealth, but nevertheless the consequences, good or bad still manifest. Regardless of the reasons.
Sara
Quote from: Sarah on January 25, 2008, 09:21:46 PM
"why" people are stealth is not the topic of this thread.
"does it hurt us" is.
Sara
you should know by now that i'm as blunt as your own conscience, so i'll stay on topic. i don't believe in "we" or "us", so
does it hurt us me to be in stealth?absolutely not! you wanted an honest answer?, you got it!
Quote from: Sarah on January 25, 2008, 09:21:46 PM
"why" people are stealth is not the topic of this thread.
"does it hurt us" is.
"Why" is not nessicarily relavant to whether the consequences of doing so are harmful or hurtful.
We are discussing the consequences, the Effect. Not the Cause.
But Sarah, the cause and the effect are somewhat the same. People wouldn't feel the need to be in stealth if they felt they could live normal lives. But the effect of this is continuing the cycle of people not knowing, nothing improving, and people feeling that they have to be stealthed to live in peace.
Does it hurt us? Yes. But it depends on who and where as to how much it does. Again, Wyoming isn't the friendliest state to the LGBT community. I talked to Guy Padgett, (hope I got the name right. oh, and he was the first open gay and youngest mayor in wyoming) and i'll say here what I told him. I feel that it is easier today to simply be gay or a lesbian then to be trans in this state. If it got out that I was trans, I really don't expect a happy ending. The mascot for my school is a cowboy, most of the men wear cowboy hats as everyday wear, and just about every car and truck in town has a gun rack. Simply put, I really wouldn't feel safe being open. I was prepared to deal with opposition when I went full time, to deal with hate and small minds. But the date came and went, and its now been two weeks with no trouble. (Trans related at least) I'm not sure if anyone really even noticed.
I understand that a lot of change would occur if we all came out, but then again, the effect it would have on individual lives could be significant. I'm out there interacting, and I let people in on the secret only if I feel I can trust them completely. I'm sure others here go by similar concepts. But after struggling to get where I am, its kind of a breather to be able to relax slightly and enjoy being a girl and myself. Coming out would put me back into that struggle.
I understand where you are coming from Sarah, and I respect you alot for having the courage to be out. But I think that the reasons people go into stealth are just as important as the reasons for being open.
The reason people are stealth is NOT just because
they feel they'd be fired or whatever.
They want to be seen as trans anything,
how can this be so hard to understand for anybody.
Doesn't any of those self-serving big mouthed trans activist
who purport speaking for me and others like me,
muster an once of empathy
and understand that after 20 years of pain and feeling
different, I just want to be one of the girls.
Not carry a flag or be at the vangard or be accepted
benevolently as a third sex, just be one of the girls.
I can't believe the judgemental crap that's been
heaped upon us, the magistral condescension
felt from a select out TS, who use their
platform, not
just for our common good, but to
flatter their own ego.
WooPeeDoo for all those out people who
feel confident to be out. But, the rubbing
our face in it and the guilt trip's got to end.
Its not just here or today, its been going
on continuously for the last 15 years
I've been involved in the community.
Hi,
I have been living as Cindy for going on 8 years now full time and I have also worked for the last 20 years as a social worker, and as Cindy for the last seven years. No stealth for this girl, I live openly. I don't shy away from anyone, and I will talk to people while looking them directly in the face. Well I am also quite adept with the humor which helps much in breaking the ice with folks, both men/women. Within the next couple weeks my partner and I are going to be starting up a support group for TSs here in the area where we live. Once we know where we will be meeting, I will notify you all of the time and place for anyone living in the Surrey BC area. I am really looking forward for the opening day. I ain't quite ready yet to stay at home in a rocking chair knitting sweaters. ;D
Cindy
imo, steath is best.... afterall, you transition to be a girl or boy. not a inbetweeny... why settle?
R >:D
They way i see it, stealth is the end of ones transition. It is the completion of ones goal to living your life as your true self.
Quote from: Diane on January 26, 2008, 12:12:00 PM
They way i see it, stealth is the end of ones transition. It is the completion of ones goal to living your life as your true self.
QFT!!!!!11111
R >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D
Quote from: Diane on January 26, 2008, 12:12:00 PM
They way i see it, stealth is the end of ones transition. It is the completion of ones goal to living your life as your true self.
i wholeheartedly concord but it seems that some of us have problems grasping this idea.
Quote from: Natasha on January 26, 2008, 06:20:39 PM
Quote from: Diane on January 26, 2008, 12:12:00 PM
They way i see it, stealth is the end of ones transition. It is the completion of ones goal to living your life as your true self.
i wholeheartedly concord but it seems that some of us have problems grasping this idea.
I concur as well. For me. I would never put someone down for being out and active, but I didn't go through this to be trans. I went through it to be a guy. On the other hand, I'm not so paranoid that I care if someone finds out. It is part of me, just not a primary part. Hell, I'm more embarrassed when people out me as a lawyer on social occasions. Odds are that'll cause me more trouble. (And yes, I've heard all the lawyer jokes thank you very much. No, I don't particularly want to give legal advice when I'm half in the bag.)
Dennis
Quote from: Tink on January 25, 2008, 08:39:23 PM
Oh I don't think "fear" is the word. It's called "completion"...done, over, end, finish, finito! When your transition is over, it is done with. Your TS history becomes your past and you reach a sense of peace of mind and balance which you don't want to jeopardize for any reason. At least that is my take on it!
tink :icon_chick:
indeed tink you hit the nail right on .
I'm going to reply before I read any other replies. I completely understand why someone would live stealth. The desire to lead as normal a life as possible is definitely understandable. I'm 38, I've lived (probably) 40% of my life in a guy's body. I can't change that as much as I'd like to. Going forward, after transition, I don't have any intentions on hiding my past BUT I also don't plan on letting people know how I spent the first 38 years of my life either, unless they NEED to know. The way I see it is that I'm going to be active in the community, maybe even online afterward, who knows, but I'm not planning on doing anything other than blending in and leading a fairly normal (whatever that is) life. I will still keep in touch with my friends and all and I feel like I'm going to really help out during transition, but I'm not transitioning to "be" transsexual. I know nothing changes that ever, but I don't need to embody that in everything I do and say in my life. I feel like I've worked hard to get to where I am with transition, if I want to be stealth, that's my prerogative.
I personally couldn't make up a past and lie about everything in my past, but again, that might be right for some people. I had a caring family who have loved and supported me through transition, same with my friends. I'm not just going to walk away from them. Anyway, just my thoughts about it. To those of you who are stealth, IT IS YOUR LIFE, do what you have to do. To those of you who don't believe in stealth, IT IS YOUR LIFE, do what you have to do, I appreciate the work you do in the community, if you do. I have many friends who make a big deal out of not being stealth but part of having the ability to be stealth is being passable enough to BE stealth. Not to be mean or anything, but seriously, these friends think that they are taking the moral high road by proclaiming they COULD be stealth, but choose not to. To really have a CHOICE, don't you have to conceivably have both options available to you? I'm talking everything, voice, everything that goes with passability. To slam people for being stealth when that isn't an option for one's self is just...I don't know, not right or something.
Anyway, my thoughts on the matter are summed up by the sentence: "Do what you need to do and let people live their lives."
Quote from: candifla on January 26, 2008, 06:24:52 PM
For a community that asks and even begs for acceptance, civility and equality from the general population, we sure are mean to each other: i.e., the activists vs. the steath, the passable vs. non-passable, the old-timers vs. the new-comers, etc.
I don't foist my opinions, views, politics, lifestyle on anyone else, why must you do that to me?
You really want me to be out and take part in speaking for the TG community? Are you sure?
Because I propose that these people should not be allowed transition:
1. No one older than 18: if you're too old, your body won't be as readily malleable.
2. No one of color. If you're asian, black, hispanic, indian or other, you're already facing an uphill battle in this Anglo-White country.
3. No one who is NOT a hermaphridite. You got a normal set. Be happy.
4. No one who is religious. Listen to your god, it's evil to do so.
5. No one who is poor. I don't want my taxes paying for your unhappiness.
6. No one who is married, a parent, or a siamese twin: you've got others to think about.
7. No one working in food service. I don't want you freaks touching my burgers.
Oh there are more things i'd like to see, but if you REALLY want me to be out and proud, those are the laws i think we should pass.
Vote CandiFLA 2008.
And I approve this message.
I honestly hope that this was a very poor attempt at humor and sarcasm CandiFLA. >:(
its not humour, it IS sarcasm... and i totally agree with thier POINT.... if you took time to look....
the activists want trans people to all be out, they suffer, so should we....
same in the gay, black, any community
if you're seen as colaborating, your evil and a baddie....
'uncle toms' in the black movement,
and auntie ->-bleeped-<-s here imo... if you're seen as not totally for the movement, your naughty...
going stealth is denying your ->-bleeped-<-ness... your bad! you shouldnt do that! stand up for free ->-bleeped-<-s!
Sod that, ill take the normal life cheers ;)
R >:D
Quote from: Rachael on January 26, 2008, 07:44:17 PM
its not humour, it IS sarcasm... and i totally agree with thier POINT.... if you took time to look....
the activists want trans people to all be out, they suffer, so should we....
same in the gay, black, any community
if you're seen as colaborating, your evil and a baddie....
'uncle toms' in the black movement,
and auntie ->-bleeped-<-s here imo... if you're seen as not totally for the movement, your naughty...
going stealth is denying your ->-bleeped-<-ness... your bad! you shouldnt do that! stand up for free ->-bleeped-<-s!
Sod that, ill take the normal life cheers ;)
R >:D
I don't think the activists think like that Rachael, not the majority at least. I
want to be out someday. I want to be out to my students so that there won't be another kid like me feeling he/she is alone in this world. I went through my entire childhood feeling alone and like a freak. I managed to survive it, but how many children didn't? I want to be open so that those kids I teach will have someone they can talk to, for whatever reason.
I'm not going to do it for the rights of LGBT people everywhere. I'm going to do it for my students. I understand many of you ladies and gentlemen feel differently, but this is my plan. You are welcome to do what you will with your own lives.
As for my objection to CandiFLA, I didn't see a point to the post other then to incite anger. If I missed the point, then it didn't come across clear for me, and I apologize.
Does it hurt us? probably
Is there anything we can do? No. We can't force peeps to come out. I'm stealth and plan to live this way for good. I'm transitioning for myself not for other peeps. Your transition is yours and you decide what you want to do & what you don't want to do with your life.
Wow, candiFLA sure knows how to make an entrance. He/she deals in biting, acid, almost poisonous sarcasm. In the pen of someone of Voltaire's caliber and the social issues of his day, it was good for a laugh, and to make the people think of change needed for a free society, and to effect that change.
Now what is the purpose of the hounds loosed by candiFLA? Is it to make a good impression here with the rest of us? She could have done it that in a much nicer way, a kinder, gentler "newbie?"
Did she do it to open a conversation? I don't know. Perhaps opening a poll and asking who prefers a vinegar douche could have had the same effect without getting anyone too upset.
Sometimes dynamite gets into the wrong hands as illustrated in this limerick:
Willie found some dynamite.
He couldn't understand it quite.
Curiosity didn't pay.
It rained Willie for seven days!
Where is Voltaire when we need him?
Cindy
Renate,
Saying some activists don't understand our views
is obvious by the way they speak.
The lack of empathy is at the root of it, and
to empathise, you've got to try to view the
world from someone else's point of view.
I've seen plenty of accusations over the last 15 years
so I don't think I "misunderstood" these activists
of various ilk.
Quote from: Renate on January 26, 2008, 08:05:55 PM
Quote from: Natasha on January 26, 2008, 06:20:39 PM
i wholeheartedly concord but it seems that some of us have problems grasping this idea.
Um, let's not discount some people's views by saying that they don't understand your views.
Yes, your opinions are easy to grasp. I just don't find them very compelling to me personally.
i was actually referring to the people that want stealth transsexuals to turn into public activists. in my view this is nonsense and as i said previously, it isn't happening in this lifetime. people do whatever is best for them and that is what should count. if someone wants to become an activist, good for them. yet that's not the reason i transitioned for but & my views and choices should be respected as well.
Quote from: Renate on January 27, 2008, 12:07:47 AM
People can still understand exactly what you are saying, yet vehemently disagree.
Renate
that's ok as long as people don't get all rowdy & rude on the forums.
Quote from: cindybc on January 26, 2008, 10:33:27 PM
Wow, candiFLA sure knows how to make an entrance. He/she deals in biting, acid, almost poisonous sarcasm. In the pen of someone of Voltaire's caliber and the social issues of his day, it was good for a laugh, and to make the people think of change needed for a free society, and to effect that change.
Now what is the purpose of the hounds loosed by candiFLA? Is it to make a good impression here with the rest of us? She could have done it that in a much nicer way, a kinder, gentler "newbie?"
Did she do it to open a conversation? I don't know. Perhaps opening a poll and asking who prefers a vinegar douche could have had the same effect without getting anyone too upset.
Sometimes dynamite gets into the wrong hands as illustrated in this limerick:
Willie found some dynamite.
He couldn't understand it quite.
Curiosity didn't pay.
It rained Willie for seven days!
Where is Voltaire when we need him?
Cindy
Hey now, you get nothing different from lol ol me ;)
newbie or not, she made an interesting point, points dont have to be 'agreeable' but it sure got people talking, and i wholeheartedly stand by thier actions... it was good... STOP GETTING SO EASILY OFFENDED....
guys, its a forum, debate, when someone plays devils advocate, learn to see that, and not scream and cry if someone says something 'nasty' the real world doesnt have such strict play nice rules...
They raised a point, the way they did it was provocative and ingenious... it made us all read it, but sadly it seems few have taken time to SEE the point...
There are many views in the community, those, sadly are real ones, not thiers, but such is 'devils advocate' im quite suprised considering the supposed english speaking population of this board that internet sarcasm is above you all....
The point was that If we are to bow to one groups demand, then they are to do the same as unwaveringly as they request us to...
I have come in contact with Trans activists who claim stealth is 'another closet' that your hiding your 'true self' 'deciving' 'lieing' and that you have a duty to fight for the rights of your 'brothers and sisters'
Like candi, i have this to say: PUSH OFF.... my life, my rules, my way on the highway.
as renate said, its a personal thing. The only person who has any say on my choices in life, is me... we hold bi monthly board meetings to discuss progress and status updates then my board of directors goes to coffee and possibly lunch... well i do atleast.
The thing is, as much as we dont want to admit it, there are strong views around, no amount of head in the sand liberalism will change that. Some are good, some are bad, some are downright ugly.... Candi just demonstrated that two can play that game...
inocent calls for transpeople to be 'out' are as offensive, and derogatory, and insulting to someone who wants to live thier life as a normal member of THIER gender, as telling the 40yo unpassing pretransition m2f that they cant because thier too old and too ugly....
swings and roundabouts ladys, gentlemen and gentlethings...
swings and roundabouts.
R :police:
Quote from: Rachael on January 27, 2008, 02:47:48 AM
Quote from: cindybc on January 26, 2008, 10:33:27 PM
Wow, candiFLA sure knows how to make an entrance. He/she deals in biting, acid, almost poisonous sarcasm. In the pen of someone of Voltaire's caliber and the social issues of his day, it was good for a laugh, and to make the people think of change needed for a free society, and to effect that change.
Now what is the purpose of the hounds loosed by candiFLA? Is it to make a good impression here with the rest of us? She could have done it that in a much nicer way, a kinder, gentler "newbie?"
Did she do it to open a conversation? I don't know. Perhaps opening a poll and asking who prefers a vinegar douche could have had the same effect without getting anyone too upset.
Sometimes dynamite gets into the wrong hands as illustrated in this limerick:
Willie found some dynamite.
He couldn't understand it quite.
Curiosity didn't pay.
It rained Willie for seven days!
Where is Voltaire when we need him?
Cindy
Hey now, you get nothing different from lol ol me ;)
newbie or not, she made an interesting point, points dont have to be 'agreeable' but it sure got people talking, and i wholeheartedly stand by thier actions... it was good... STOP GETTING SO EASILY OFFENDED....
guys, its a forum, debate, when someone plays devils advocate, learn to see that, and not scream and cry if someone says something 'nasty' the real world doesnt have such strict play nice rules...
They raised a point, the way they did it was provocative and ingenious... it made us all read it, but sadly it seems few have taken time to SEE the point...
There are many views in the community, those, sadly are real ones, not thiers, but such is 'devils advocate' im quite suprised considering the supposed english speaking population of this board that internet sarcasm is above you all....
The point was that If we are to bow to one groups demand, then they are to do the same as unwaveringly as they request us to...
I have come in contact with Trans activists who claim stealth is 'another closet' that your hiding your 'true self' 'deciving' 'lieing' and that you have a duty to fight for the rights of your 'brothers and sisters'
Like candi, i have this to say: PUSH OFF.... my life, my rules, my way on the highway.
as renate said, its a personal thing. The only person who has any say on my choices in life, is me... we hold bi monthly board meetings to discuss progress and status updates then my board of directors goes to coffee and possibly lunch... well i do atleast.
The thing is, as much as we dont want to admit it, there are strong views around, no amount of head in the sand liberalism will change that. Some are good, some are bad, some are downright ugly.... Candi just demonstrated that two can play that game...
inocent calls for transpeople to be 'out' are as offensive, and derogatory, and insulting to someone who wants to live thier life as a normal member of THIER gender, as telling the 40yo unpassing pretransition m2f that they cant because thier too old and too ugly....
swings and roundabouts ladys, gentlemen and gentlethings...
swings and roundabouts.
R :police:
Interesting, but as I said, I missed the point of Candi's post. I honestly still have a hard time seeing the point you describe in that post, but that might just be my own limitations.
When I started this post, I didn't expect the tempers to start flaring like this. I was simply curious if my friends view might be valid. Since I have only lived as a woman full time in stealth for 2 weeks, I did not feel qualified to answer the question with any conviction, I still don't. Though I was pleased to read all the intelligent replies to this post.
I think the end result is that everyone must simply live their lives as they feel they need to. Things are getting better, and I think it has to do with the friends we make. If you want a good indicator as to how things are progressing, look at the jobs that discourage LGBT the most. I know for a fact that the education field is growing more open and accepting of LGBT women, and this includes transwomen and transmen. So things as they are are getting better.
So if you want to come out, kudos to you. If you want to stay in stealth, go for it. Do what you feel you need to do to be safe and, more importantly, be happy.
thats the point... this is a fire and brimstone subject.... prepare for passion....
as for lgbt women... lgbt women are bisexual women or lesbians.... i wholely disagree that a medical condition is lumped with sexuality....
As far as my view goes, i dont really care how accepting the world is of transsexuality.... My life is normal and mundane, and unlike some who view stealth as hard work. Id actually have to put EFFORT into outing myself.... as stealth just happened naturally to me.
R
Hi Rachael. Personally my dear, I don't give two screws for CandiFLA's ......er, enlightenment.
I know all about meanies that could be detrimental to my health, but until I run into one of those there tobacco chewing read neck decides to snuff me out I am going to continue enjoying life.
It ain't some nut case on a board that is going to shake me up.
Cindy
firstly, i dont like you calling someone on this board with an opinion that differers to yours, a nutcase....
and those 'tobaco chewing rednecks' are here too cindy... on your precious board.
R >:D
I have my own opinions but I don't ask for anyone else to accept my opinions and surely everyone else is also entitled to their own opinion. My opinions arise from my own evaluations of a given thing or occurrence and I do not expect every one to adhere to them. They are free to take them or leave them as they wish. But I will ask for forgiveness for one thing and that is for having called a certain person a nutcase.
Cindy
do unto others....
Thier opinions are as valid as your own, as valid as my own, agreement has nothing to do with validity. Something the internet seems to miss...
R >:D
Agreed, And yes some boards, well, actually a good lot of them and their occupants actually can be deceived by the intent of others. It is difficult to read a persons personality and intentions through some electrons traveling over some wires to some other computer hundreds if not thousands of miles away.
Even gathered together in person in the real physical world we will find that individually we have different perspectives over different propositions, occurrences and concepts. This makes humans very diverse beings when it comes to the senses. When it comes to interpreting certain observations and experiences stemming from each individual and their final conclusion from their observation. I once said in another board that if you take ten individuals and had them examine this one flower. They will all come back with a different concept of what that one flower looked like and smelled like to them. The Grand Illusion? Perhaps.
Cindy
tbh, i just read thier post... it was perfectly clear to me... although, i seem to lack the ->-bleeped-<- ability to be instantly, and totally offended by something without actually reading it....
maybe i will learn this life skill one day.
R >:D
I believe there are psychological stresses from living in stealth, and feel they could be detrimental over the long term. For me. This has nothing to do with the activist aspect.
Regarding activism, each person makes their own choices. As an activist, I support your right to choose stealth, however I'm still fighting for everyone's rights, yours and mine.
y2g
tbh, the only stress i experienced was when people knew...
I fell into stealth at work... and all it requires is me to be myself... i pass, and nobody thinks im anything but a girl named Rachael...
my apearance takes no effort, i rarely wear makeup, hair is easy, im seen as female
i cant talk in anything but a girls voice...
i naturally behave in a female way
there is no stress to keep up an 'act' like before when i presented male...
this is easy. its NO stress becuse im finally me...
stealth is only stressfull if your not ready. if you are, its just the natural end to the social transition.
R :police:
It depends on what stealth means.
If it just, a need to know, but if someone knows, what the hey,
that's not the same thing as total stealth, which is probably
rarer.
Even for those in total stealth,
Most people don't think about being discovered day to day,
so why would they feel stressed?
As for out TS activists
fighting for all of us.
I'm not so sure. I've heard plenty
of TS activists and they seem to
be fighting for mostly people like
them and assuming we are the
same. The point of view
and attitude
seems to be so different
from TS who disapeer
into the crowd that
it gets me angry when
I see them interviewed!
Only TS those that come back
from stealth voluntarily (or are outed)
after awhile in mostly stealth mode
(like Lynn Conway)
seem to have a more balanced
view of things.
This will always be an emotive subject, to a degree it depends on what your aims are for transition. For some simply passing or living a life free from discrimination is utopia, for others it is simply blending into society and living as a member of their target gender.
Others are rightly proud to proclaim their trannsexual status and actively seek change in society that will hopefully eventually come.
I still maintain we are each individually free to make such choices, some people may have limited choices, some may reach the utopia of living in stealth.
I never thought that 8 years ago I could even pass, but now living a life where I mix freely and openly with both men and women, without my past being an issue, its something I still cannot comprehend. Yes, my past may eventually come back to haunt me, but in the meantime I am simply happy just being seen as a woman to everyone who knows me.
Rebecca
Im totally out and proud!.... im a female, and the whole world sees me as such... female activist!
ehem....
it also hugely annoys me when activists speak on behalf of the whole community with thier views, especially the ones with wacky gender views and the ones who proclaim that were 'transgenderists or gender enthusiasts...' like is a bloody model train hobby! or those demands that transsexuals should have Trans as thier official gender! PUSH OFF....
R >:D
Why 'trans-Gender' at all. Gender = social construct for behavior, roles, division of labor, etc. Sex= biology.
I know the old argument was supposed to be "but people will then think this is about having sex or that it's about sexual identity."
Huh? So for the TGs it IS very often about sexuality and getting turned on by clothing, role play, etc. To be a part of 'GBLT' -- doesn't that de facto make it, in many people's minds, part of the 'sexual identity movement?' The argument has overtones of absurdity even from its most creative supporters.
My problem has been that my damned body has not been 'right!'
I could wear whatever clothing and my damned body would STILL not have been right. I could have been a runway model and my damned body would STILL not have been right. I could be called "ma'am" 100% of the time and my damned body would STILL not have been right.
TS is about body and biology. It is NOT about social roles. To be stealth-y (I won't use 'stealth' because anymore that is like a mythological beast, a manticore) means for me that I do NOT have to live any more in a way that reflected 'body-dysmorphia.'
That is my pleasure. It does not affect your pleasure in any meaningful way at all.
Nichole
zing.....
im the same, i can wear, and DO wear boys/andro clothes....
i get read as female, in sneakers, hoodie, and baggy jeans.... clothes are to keep me warm....
and i agree, Ts shouldnt be in LGBT....
R >:D
Quote from: Rachael on January 27, 2008, 10:30:29 AM
... i agree, Ts shouldnt be in LGBT....
R >:D
Well we kinda agree. :laugh: :laugh: Some of the 'T' should be. TS should not be conflated with Transgender for the purpose of this particular argument. Why? Because they are not simply 'horses of a different color.' They are two separate genera and species of animal.
N~
bingo.....
one umbrela for CD, TV TG etc...
TS imo, medical and not remotely sexual, or cross gender or anything, were normal people with body defects
androgyne? pass
R :police:
Quote from: Angel on January 24, 2008, 09:34:49 PMBut it could be that us living in stealth is actually one of the reasons we are not getting as far as fast with legal rights and society respect.
I poised this question some time ago and the responses were at times very emotional. I recall the thread had to be locked because things got very heated. This question is as controversial as abortion.
I feel there's no doubt if each and every one of us were out, proudly proclaiming we are TG (umbrella term), then yes, we would get better recognition and better treatment. But it's like being with a bunch of friends all daring each other to jump in the icy cold water. The first one has no idea if anyone will follow. If everyone said that tomorrow they will all come out to the world how many really would? Considering the fallout most would face I'd say very few. And if you don't believe the person standing next to you will do it, unless you're a very independent and strong willed person, you likely won't either.
Until that time comes when we really unite, and not just in words, each of us must determine for ourselves if and when we're coming out. Because the reality is we will have little support from our community when we do, outside of words of encouragement. For the most part, coming out is done alone if for no other reason than we are few and far between.
Julie
Quote from: Nichole W. on January 27, 2008, 10:33:29 AM
TS should not be conflated with Transgender for the purpose of this particular argument. Why? Because they are not simply 'horses of a different color.' They are two separate genera and species of animal.
N~
exactly so. i'm a woman that was born transsexual & i'm NOT transgendered ;)
alas
Quote from: Natasha on December 29, 2007, 04:22:04 PM
as far as 'outsiders' are concerned, a ->-bleeped-<-, a cross-dresser, an androgyne, and a transsexual woman are all just different words for a 'man in a dress'.
The transgender community uses this to their advantage; in the last few years, there has been an increase (small, but still significant) in the general understanding and acceptance of transsexualism; we've made advances socially, legally and medically, and the transgender activists want some of that acceptance for themselves which is why there is this subtle insistence that transsexual people come under the "transgender umbrella", and therefore society can't deny "other transgender" people the rights and acceptance that it's beginning to offer to transsexual people. all nonsense, of course, but very plausible, and it carries with it a dangerous barb for us.
lumping transsexual people into the transgender camp means that we are viewed as having a psychological problem, and are told to either get over it, or "see a shrink" to have it fixed. as a result, the proper medical treatment of hormones and surgery can become more difficult, if not in some cases impossible to obtain. jobs can be denied. the denial of the right of marriage in some states and countries (due to the belief that "assigned with one sex at birth, means you are always that sex", results in the refusal to change birth certificates) is also reinforced. this creates the possibility of revoking this right in other states and countries, where transsexual people are considered to be transgender, since transgender people are almost never considered by the general public to be any sex other than the one they were assigned to at birth.
being considered transgender does me, a woman born transsexual, more harm than good. why? because it creates the probability that i will be viewed as "born a man, always a man" even though i was never a man. i was born transsexual; i've had treatment for that; i'm anatomically female.
furthermore, it doesn't matter that i've had the corrective surgery, or that i've spent years in therapy, and thousands on hormones, hair removal, other medical treatments and speech therapy; because as a "transgender" individual one's sex never changes from the one you're assigned at birth. it also creates the nasty unspoken subtext of "why can't you just live with what you have, and be happy with it like a cross-dresser, ->-bleeped-<-, she-male, drag queen or other does?" fyi i'm a woman who was born transsexual. and i'm not "transgendered".
Posted on: January 27, 2008, 11:06:40 AM
.
I don't think it hurts, but it does not help either.
And if your not part of the fight, complaining about the outcome ain't changing anything.
hi y2gender, I have grown to like you and respect your insights, but let me say something about mois. Not much rattles my cage and I am outgoing and love to yack the ears off of folks and I use home spun humor, where ever I go. I am a happy person but I also have my sensitivities, I cry easy, I laugh easy, but I am usually in a good kick ass mood, and I am happy 90% of the time. So I knew seven years ago that I would never pass 100%.
Stealth?? No I just decided to make the best of what I have and I love life and I will not, for that matter, I refuse to be turned away by fear. I don't have any fear of anything much but I am quite prudent as to where I go. I may be called to help a street person and I would not hesitate to do so. Wing Walker and I did just that last night. For one thing I been there on the street, not a very nice place to be. I will go when I am called, I have my Wing Walker at my side as well.
Cindy
Quote from: Rachael on January 27, 2008, 10:35:25 AM
bingo.....
one umbrela for CD, TV TG etc...
TS imo, medical and not remotely sexual, or cross gender or anything, were normal people with body defects
androgyne? pass
R :police:
Regarding under which umbrella androgynes might be included, I lost my umbrella somewhere and have been walking around in the rain ever since ;)
Quote from: cindybc on January 27, 2008, 05:59:07 PM
Stealth?? No I just decided to make the best of what I have and I love life and I will not, for that matter, I refuse to be turned away by fear. I don't have any fear of anything much but I am quite prudent as to where I go. I may be called to help a street person and I would not hesitate to do so. Wing Walker and I did just that last night. For one thing I been there on the street, not a very nice place to be. I will go when I am called, I have my Wing Walker at my side as well.
Cindy
Cindy, it is wonderful that you are in this world, and so willing to help a person whom most would simply walk right by.
y2g
/me issues all androgyne's with macs.
R >:D
"Hey, hey, hey!!!!" I was born a woman with a physical defect. So I went and got the Doc to remove that over-sized wart in my pants and now I am woman. "I am woman!!!" I am the Dunes of Mars Warrior Princess. "Hey Maaaaa!!!!"would you go fetch the Quantum Level Puddle Jumper for me please? And my umbrella has holes in it from the moths in the closet, darn moths anyway.
Cindy
Re: Does it hurt us to be in stealth?
No....it would hurt more not to be stealth...
Dont forget the constant stabbing pain that reminds you that you are pretending to be a natal female, and lieing to the world by passing...
R >:D
Quote from: Rachael on January 27, 2008, 10:39:18 PM
/me issues all androgyne's with macs.
R >:D
Rachael, it took me a minute to realize that a "mac" is a raincoat LOL... luckily I listened to the Beatles when I was a kid, so I understand some British expressions ;) I was about to tell you that I already use a Mac (computer) :P
y2g
what is it with ->-bleeped-<-s and computers!!!!
R >:D
Quote from: Rachael on January 28, 2008, 09:03:24 AM
what is it with ->-bleeped-<-s and computers!!!!
R >:D
How else would we visit the forum? ;)
y2g <walking along side of the internet highway with hir thumb stuck out, trying to flag a ride>
Yes, Rachael, I find that I'm constantly tortured by the deadly torment of people knowing I am a natal female. It really is excruciating. :)
N~
Quote from: Nichole W. on January 28, 2008, 04:25:10 PM
Yes, Rachael, I find that I'm constantly tortured by the deadly torment of people knowing I am a natal female. It really is excruciating. :)
N~
Arnt you just!
doesnt it make you just wanna scream to the world ' Im a ->-bleeped-<-! accept me as i come! Wig, high heels and all!
then again, no
R >:D
I always am walking about feeling that I need a sign-board that says "TRANSSEXUAL, please discriminate against!" :laugh: :laugh:
BTW -- no wig. no heels, normally. Once in a blue moon I will wear heels. Limit, about four hours. Have to keep time in heels down. I don't bind my feet or experience clitordectomies either!!
N~
"Hey, hey." I have no problems nor do I have any pain. I am me, and if someone wishes to expresses their dislike to me, I am quite prepared to respond to them, "hey man!" go pee pee up a rope. I have been living as who I am, Cindy for the last 7 years, Ok I may not be a natal GG as much as I wish I was, but shhhhhhh don't tell anyone ok?
As I mentioned in a previous post that even if I don't pass 100% nor am doing any stealth, but I will continue to be me. I haven't even given a thought about being Transsexual for past 7 years, well, at least not until I came back here. Yes my roots are Transsexual, but to tell the truth I feel honored and humbled to be who I am, and I do my part to be there for my newly adopted transsexual bro/Sis.
On the other side of the coin, If one was to address me as to who I present I will smile some, but if someone was to address me as anything else but the proper gender well!!!!! as long as they don't call me late for supper. "Hee, hee!" Na all kidding aside, I know I don't pass completely and does it really matter? After all I am just an old bat. There are still a lot of wonderful loving folks out there, so our world is not completely populated by A-holes
Cindy
I used to read about stealth and think it was an impossible dream because at first my appearance was a total failure.
Nowadays my appearance is a success. Stealth (or something approximating it, assuming no one does a background check*) is within my reach. That means I need to arrive at my own opinion on the subject now. I like Dennis's solution. I just be the woman I am and don't need go around advertising how I got to be a woman. But if anyone knows, it isn't a big deal. I'm showing by how I live my life that it isn't a big deal, and hopefully others will take their cue from that. I can shrug off being clocked, as long as people are respectful about it... and get the pronouns right.
I also go to the legislature to lobby for LGBT equal rights. I actually participate in LGBT politics not because I'm trans but because I'm bisexual (with strongly lesbian tendencies), and I believe that gay & lesbian liberation is just the right thing to do. When I go to LGBT gatherings, I wind up hanging with the lesbians and bi women. There is often a trans event as a sideshow to the larger LGBT event, but I tend to miss those because I feel I fit in better with the women. To me "transgender" is meaningless as an identity. I'm a woman. I identify as a woman, and I hang with women's groups.
*However, it seems all the jobs around Washington DC these days require a security clearance or at least an official background investigation. So I cheerfully inform them of my previous name and everything, and let them draw their own conclusions if they like. Apparently my female presentation is so good that the last security officer I talked to, after she read my application, still had no clue I used to live as male. Even though I had just handed her a tacit admission of it. Now that's stealth, LOL -- hiding in plain sight!
bingo... Its why i prefer stealth, i dont have any compusion to hang around transpeople...
although i am in the uni lgbt as trans rep, something i want to drop... even if i am doing it in an incognito aproach...
R >:D
Quote from: redfish on January 29, 2008, 04:07:01 PM
... move on to do the other things in life that interest me.
Perhaps the best point of all. When one has interests other than her pain she is often able to move right on along to other things that interest her much more.
N~
This whole debate on being stealth or not is really quite pointless. Who really gives a monkey's if I'm stealth. Why should it matter if I'm out and proud (to borrow a phrase from the Queer movement) or living stealth. There are many, many TS who have no choice on being out. For example those who transition in the workplace and remain in the workplace have no hope of being stealth no matter how hard they try. I find it hard to believe that there are TS out there who endure the torture of transition just to be out and proud, as given the choice I believe everyone would want to be stealth. Those who choose to be out and proud should be applauded along with those who choose not to. It hurts no one except the person who may have to live their life being out and not wanting it that way. ME.
I transitioned at work and thanks to a disgruntled ex-employee who outed me to everyone she met I am now un-stealth. Yes I have a choice... I could run away and move to some other location, but you know something there isn't anyone one big enough to run this girl out of town, so I fight, I fight for my rights, and you know something, I'm winning.
I live, work, and socialize just like any other woman, wether being naked in the shower with other women, having great sex like other women. I try and live my life as stealth as possible, but lets face it we all run the risk of being discovered, then what. For me as I live in a relatively small city where I transitioned I'll out myself when it comes time to have sex with a guy it's just the way I am, I would hate him to find out weeks later into a relationship that in his eye's I had deceived him. But that's just me.
Steph
the non stealth attack the stealth for being stealth
the stealthdont seem to give a crap, apart from thier right to choose...
i think its time to accept that some want to be out, and some dont, its a personal choice, and affects your life only.
DEAL WITH IT.
R >:D
Hi Hypatia, Congratulations. and you go girl. I will pray that you get the job.
Cindy
Quote from: cindybc on January 29, 2008, 11:55:33 PM
Hi Hypatia, Congratulations. and you go girl. I will pray that you get the job.
Cindy
Thanks, honey :)
Posted on: January 30, 2008, 12:26:04 AM
Quote from: Steph on January 29, 2008, 11:14:37 PMI find it hard to believe that there are TS out there who endure the torture of transition just to be out and proud, as given the choice I believe everyone would want to be stealth. Those who choose to be out and proud should be applauded along with those who choose not to.
I liked the job I had and wanted to keep it. So I transitioned in place. I was fine with that. A few individuals tried to cause problems for me, but I responded to HR appropriately and management supported me. On the whole I was quite happy there. But I lost my job, for a reason I just found out, it was basically just for being trans-- they trumped up some unjustified anti-trans propaganda against me-- it was rather blatant that they were using my out and proud transsexualism to justify getting rid of me! So that aspect of it was not cool at all.
Quote from: Rachael on January 29, 2008, 11:23:20 PM
the non stealth attack the stealth for being stealth
the stealthdont seem to give a crap, apart from thier right to choose...
i think its time to accept that some want to be out, and some dont, its a personal choice, and affects your life only.
DEAL WITH IT.
R >:D
I agree......whatever glove fits...
Quote from: Steph on January 29, 2008, 11:14:37 PM
I find it hard to believe that there are TS out there who endure the torture of transition just to be out and proud, as given the choice I believe everyone would want to be stealth.
Transition isn't torture for me Steph.
For some I don't think it ends up that way.
I am young though, I go to college -an art collage at that.
If I had 30 years invested in a life or family or profession that suddenly dicided I was not worth knowing simply because I was not the gender I had portrayed myself to be all the years, I would probably be very tortured.
It would be most difficult.
That can be said for any major life change that late in life, it's more difficult when you have most of your life invested in it and you are already middle aged.
Midlife crisis all over again.
For me though, I don't have to go through that.
My school is accepting of me, so I don't have to worry about switching schools or majors.
I have support of parents even though they don't completely understand, and my town is very liberal. Especialy torwards Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, and Transgender issues.
Now, it is woth a note that I chose some of this.
I chose to live here for a reason.
I chose art school for a reason. (With some help of my father)
My parrents not being total bigots was a blessing,(and they have thier own issues too as some who have read some of my posts might know) but the rest of it I could have done without.
I suppose I would have picked my battles regardless of where I lived and how I was born.
If I had been born in Kentucky or Mississippi, I would move out of there rather than try to transition there and deal with it there.
That would be misreble. People would have big issues with it.
So I don't do that.
I mean, why should I make things difficult for myself?
Things can be difficult without that.
For some of us, I think transitioning is fun and pleasant.
Imagine what it would be like if you were in our shoes.
I don't think it has to be misreble by the very nature of the thing.
I think it can be quite fun for some.
Sara
Hi Sara, I do love your thoughts and feelings and I can identify with much of what you said about coming out in your home town, so have I, and way to my surprise the people turned out to be supportive. Yes quit a liberal little town it was. Hon, I am one of those late comers, but I am a very grateful person that I didn't miss the bus all together. As to who I became, it was very much an asset in the work I was doing at the time. So I just don't sweat it anymore, I go where I want, anywhere I want without any fear. Today I embrace who I am and I am at peace with the one that resides within. I wish I would have started the journey sooner, but what the heck, enjoy the crap out of what's left of it like there was not tomorrow is the way I look at it.
Cindy
Quote from: cindybc on January 30, 2008, 03:17:16 PM
Hi Sara, I do love your thoughts and feelings and I can identify with much of what you said about coming out in your home town, so have I, and way to my surprise the people turned out to be supportive. Yes quit a liberal little town it was. Hon, I am one of those late comers, but I am a very grateful person that I didn't miss the bus all together. As to who I became, it was very much an asset in the work I was doing at the time. So I just don't sweat it anymore, I go where I want, anywhere I want without any fear. Today I embrace who I am and I am at peace with the one that resides within. I wish I would have started the journey sooner, but what the heck, enjoy the crap out of what's left of it like there was not tomorrow is the way I look at it.
Cindy
YAy!
Since I have had the luxury of being able to do so, I pretty much live in stealth, unless I choose to be out with somebody. Most of my friends have no idea I'm TS. When coming out to people, one thing I've noticed is that when I tell somebody and they accept me for who I am anyways, it takes a lot of pressure off. However, if I tell somebody and they blow me off, although you can reason that they weren't worth it anyways, it still hurts. It's a real toss-up whether to tell somebody or not, and being stealth is a nice way to avoid having to confront it. However, I highly doubt I would ever do deep stealth, since that brings about an entirely new level of stress that I doubt I could deal with. I've been with 2 guys so far that knew I was TS, knew I was pre-op, were definitely straight and didn't have any problem with me because they still saw me as 100% female. I don't see deep stealth as being a necessity for anything. One of my problems with stealth is that I hate lying to people. I usually just carefully choose my wording and let them interpret it how they want. However, it can get be tricky. For instance, I was with this girl and I had told her I had only been with women sexually. Then later, I ended up telling her I had kids. Both statements are true, but she got very confused and couldn't fit the pieces together until I revealed I wasn't exactly born with a female body (my favorite way of phrasing it).
One major reason I chose to be stealth (besides obviously not wanting to have to pull aside every single person I come into contact with and letting them know what I have in my pants) is because I wanted to get the genuine experience of being known and treated as a GG, which I would have been if I were born correctly. Believe me, there IS a difference between how a GG and a known TS are treated. You have much more freedom being seen as GG, but you also lose the freedom of not having your past become an obstacle course. I think what it really comes down to is which type of freedom is important to you?
Quote from: Sarah on January 30, 2008, 01:42:53 PM
If I had 30 years invested in a life or family or profession that suddenly dicided I was not worth knowing simply because I was not the gender I had portrayed myself to be all the years, I would probably be very tortured.
It would be most difficult.
That can be said for any major life change that late in life, it's more difficult when you have most of your life invested in it and you are already middle aged.
Midlife crisis all over again.
You are so very right about that, Sara. I am glad you recognize that. So many younger girls here just don't get that.
Quote from: Sarah on January 30, 2008, 01:42:53 PM
For some of us, I think transitioning is fun and pleasant.
Imagine what it would be like if you were in our shoes.
I don't think it has to be misreble by the very nature of the thing.
I think it can be quite fun for some.
Sara
This is the attitude we should all have. There is more than enough miserable stuff to go around. I just want to enjoy the parts of this I can, live in the moment, and have fun in all of the marvelous discoveries. What could be wrong with that? If it's just all total grief, maybe we should rethink why we're doing this and who we are.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Steph, what you said is what I have been trying to say. I'm just not that good with words and they always come back to haunt me. I also live in a medium size town I guess, 200,000 people. I got involved in the politics of the city and I have been out since day one. The mayor sent me a card when I went to Thailand for surgery and so did a reporter from the newspaper. I got a card from the city council wishing me good luck and other get well cards from others. It wasn't a party but hey we should have had one. I do get respect from everyone and I don't ever get harassed. People remember me and at times I get put at the head of the line when waiting to go eat on a Friday evening without reservations. Never had that before or maybe they are hiding me?
Sheila
Sheila.... it's because you are friendly and very kind. Some people just can't resist returning the favor. ;)
Cindi
Hi Cindi that is a really nice way to put it. Yes if you go out with an upbeat attitude, I can personally vouch that it works quite well.
Cindy
Going to ask a potentially stupid question but I am really curious:
What does 'stealth' entail? I realize the obvious "no one knows". But your parents know, your siblings. You are members of a trans support website, aren't these all forms of being out?
Do you move away from your family? or does your family just not tell anyone?
I'm just curious and I really don't mean any offense at all.
i have it easy, my parents wouldnt be seen dead telling anyone... and i dont see them anyway... so no danger, im simply dead to them.
as for internet forums? well, the internet is serious business as we all know... One could quite safely be stealth, and use a trans forum. Afterall, its nicknames, and possibly a photo or two, but without someone specifically knowing, its as pot luck as a background search, nobody is perfectly invisible, stealth is to me, and most, nobody knowing, or having reason to wonder in your day to day life. In my life, i have very little contact between the internet and my real life friends. My only google hit, is my name on an airsoft site forum, where you put your name in a thread to book in for events... this place doesnt even apear or any hint...
So stealth has flavours, true, if someone doesnt suspect, they wont look. A fed background check is sure as hell gonna turn something up or any govornmental. but that depends.
heres a theory, im moving to the us in 2 years time once i graduate, ill ahve been ft 2 years, so can get a new birth certificate here, and emigrate to the US... all things good, ill come in as a random british citizen, a female, and its unlikely any check in the us will turn up much unless govornmental and quite extensive. so is that stealth?
yeah maybe
then again, stealth can just be nobody knowing in your day to day life. My classmates dont know, my coleges at work dont, sure some friends do, but they never bring it up, its something from the past, that stealth? well i dont know, i like to think it is. but hey,
stealth is what you make it imo.
R :police:
You do realize that the process requires a full physical from a USCIS approved doctor?
imigration? meh, hurdle when i come to it,
R >:D
Quote from: Rachael on February 06, 2008, 01:07:47 PM
heres a theory, im moving to the us in 2 years time once i graduate, ill ahve been ft 2 years, so can get a new birth certificate here, and emigrate to the US... all things good, ill come in as a random british citizen, a female, and its unlikely any check in the us will turn up much unless govornmental and quite extensive. so is that stealth?
yeah maybe
then again, stealth can just be nobody knowing in your day to day life. My classmates dont know, my coleges at work dont, sure some friends do, but they never bring it up, its something from the past, that stealth? well i dont know, i like to think it is. but hey,
stealth is what you make it imo.
R :police:
Why on Earth would you want to come to the USA? I would trade places with you in a heartbeat! When the Berlin Wall came down and Germany was repatriating Germans in Russia I was hoping they'd consider taking the American grand children of them. Alas, it was not to be. Before you rush to turn in your UK passport I'd spend some significant time here to learn just how wacky we are!
Quote from: Rachael on February 06, 2008, 06:18:50 PM
imigration? meh, hurdle when i come to it,
R >:D
There's lots of room here in Canada :)
Steph
I would imagine that its a lot easier to get into Canada from England than the US. If you think your going "in stealth" pre-SRS though the INS as a female remember this... (And you're not, the INS is Federal Police Service of the United States, under the Department of Homeland Security, they are not minor players) any lie on an official US document is a Federal Felony, one that on entry and immigration stuff can place you under some pretty harsh laws - that can not be taken to, or overruled by, a federal court. And if all you know of the States is what you know from the media, then its like me thinking all of England is like "Are You Being Served." You might want to visit first.
Quote from: Claire de Lune on February 06, 2008, 10:11:24 PM
Quote from: Rachael on February 06, 2008, 01:07:47 PM
heres a theory, im moving to the us in 2 years time once i graduate, ill ahve been ft 2 years, so can get a new birth certificate here, and emigrate to the US... all things good, ill come in as a random british citizen, a female, and its unlikely any check in the us will turn up much unless govornmental and quite extensive. so is that stealth?
yeah maybe
then again, stealth can just be nobody knowing in your day to day life. My classmates dont know, my coleges at work dont, sure some friends do, but they never bring it up, its something from the past, that stealth? well i dont know, i like to think it is. but hey,
stealth is what you make it imo.
R :police:
Why on Earth would you want to come to the USA? I would trade places with you in a heartbeat! When the Berlin Wall came down and Germany was repatriating Germans in Russia I was hoping they'd consider taking the American grand children of them. Alas, it was not to be. Before you rush to turn in your UK passport I'd spend some significant time here to learn just how wacky we are!
You obviously have no concept of how bad it is for us in the U.K, especially if you are TS. There are no real therepists or treatment programs and the NHS is a horrendous experience for all of us. I would also be out of here like a shot if I had the finances to do so...
long? yes, hornendous? i dont know yet! :D
Ive been given hrt, i might get surgery, sod the gic...
Im coming to the US because Nobody knows me, everyone speaks bastardised english, and i atleast know something of the culture.
plus its not a bad place to live once transitioned and if you happen to have cisgender privilage.
transitioning? id still rather be in the uk... berleigh does profess its suckishness, but ive not noticed much sucking other than the Charring cross hospital. the rest seems ok tbh...
R :police:
Quote from: Rachael on February 07, 2008, 04:43:44 AM
long? yes, hornendous? i dont know yet! :D
Ive been given hrt, i might get surgery, sod the gic...
Im coming to the US because Nobody knows me, everyone speaks bastardised english, and i atleast know something of the culture.
plus its not a bad place to live once transitioned and if you happen to have cisgender privilage.
transitioning? id still rather be in the uk... berleigh does profess its suckishness, but ive not noticed much sucking other than the Charring cross hospital. the rest seems ok tbh...
R :police:
Yes, I agree....the real bad apple is Charring cross hospital ....although according to Danielle (Fruity) GIC Nottingham has a bad reputation as well...
Berleigh: true that. but then, leeds, sheffield, and calderdale are supposedly alright, as are most, and remember, you never hear the good stories, only the loud wronged people...
for whatever reason, i choose to see balence over one loud bad opinion.
Redfish: yeah, i know, pity i pick up accepts stupidly easily ><
R >:D
Quote from: Berliegh on February 07, 2008, 04:06:24 AM
Quote from: Claire de Lune on February 06, 2008, 10:11:24 PM
Quote from: Rachael on February 06, 2008, 01:07:47 PM
heres a theory, im moving to the us in 2 years time once i graduate, ill ahve been ft 2 years, so can get a new birth certificate here, and emigrate to the US... all things good, ill come in as a random british citizen, a female, and its unlikely any check in the us will turn up much unless govornmental and quite extensive. so is that stealth?
yeah maybe
then again, stealth can just be nobody knowing in your day to day life. My classmates dont know, my coleges at work dont, sure some friends do, but they never bring it up, its something from the past, that stealth? well i dont know, i like to think it is. but hey,
stealth is what you make it imo.
R :police:
Why on Earth would you want to come to the USA? I would trade places with you in a heartbeat! When the Berlin Wall came down and Germany was repatriating Germans in Russia I was hoping they'd consider taking the American grand children of them. Alas, it was not to be. Before you rush to turn in your UK passport I'd spend some significant time here to learn just how wacky we are!
You obviously have no concept of how bad it is for us in the U.K, especially if you are TS. There are no real therepists or treatment programs and the NHS is a horrendous experience for all of us. I would also be out of here like a shot if I had the finances to do so...
You have no concept of how bad it is in the USA. Yes, you can get therapists and such - if you have the money. If you lack insurance you have no place to turn for the normal health problems and emergencies that crop up in life. If you're insured or wealthy and lose a leg you can get the latest high tech prosthesis. If you're not either of those things, you get crutches! You do have private doctors and therapists you can see if you pay out of pocket don't you? That's what you'll be doing here.
I'd listen to Tekla and Steph. Canada is a better option. If you live in the right province your transition needs will be handled. I thought of moving there myself but I knew I couldn't take the winters (I'm a California girl) or distance from my kid. They're not nearly as whacky as their neighbors to the south and kill each other far less frequently. Oh, Canada!
Quote from: Rachael on February 07, 2008, 09:42:00 AM
Berleigh: true that. but then, leeds, sheffield, and calderdale are supposedly alright, as are most, and remember, you never hear the good stories, only the loud wronged people...
for whatever reason, i choose to see balence over one loud bad opinion.
Redfish: yeah, i know, pity i pick up accepts stupidly easily ><
R >:D
.....and I thought I was a very quiet, softly spoken and humble person ;).....some of the NHS Clinics you mention may be ok but it's very hard to get referred to one of those when you live near London. PCT's choose not to refer you out of their area so you never get to go where you might get some help.....
I think you don't get to hear the good stories because they are so rare and the bad stories are more likely.....I always heard good things said about private consultants like Richard Curtis and Russell Reid and bad one's about the NHS psychiatrists....but these were not just stories but real experiences from people who I have met in person.....plus my own experiences..
I have now realised there are ways round the NHS without ever getting involved in gender clinics. They are certainly not needed. What's needed are timescales and treatment programs and surgical technicians you can arrange appointments with........in the U.K there is too much emphasis on mental health issue's and psychiatry rather than the issue's of treatment...
Quote from: Claire de Lune on February 07, 2008, 10:19:21 AM
Quote from: Berliegh on February 07, 2008, 04:06:24 AM
Quote from: Claire de Lune on February 06, 2008, 10:11:24 PM
Quote from: Rachael on February 06, 2008, 01:07:47 PM
heres a theory, im moving to the us in 2 years time once i graduate, ill ahve been ft 2 years, so can get a new birth certificate here, and emigrate to the US... all things good, ill come in as a random british citizen, a female, and its unlikely any check in the us will turn up much unless govornmental and quite extensive. so is that stealth?
yeah maybe
then again, stealth can just be nobody knowing in your day to day life. My classmates dont know, my coleges at work dont, sure some friends do, but they never bring it up, its something from the past, that stealth? well i dont know, i like to think it is. but hey,
stealth is what you make it imo.
R :police:
Why on Earth would you want to come to the USA? I would trade places with you in a heartbeat! When the Berlin Wall came down and Germany was repatriating Germans in Russia I was hoping they'd consider taking the American grand children of them. Alas, it was not to be. Before you rush to turn in your UK passport I'd spend some significant time here to learn just how wacky we are!
You obviously have no concept of how bad it is for us in the U.K, especially if you are TS. There are no real therepists or treatment programs and the NHS is a horrendous experience for all of us. I would also be out of here like a shot if I had the finances to do so...
You have no concept of how bad it is in the USA. Yes, you can get therapists and such - if you have the money. If you lack insurance you have no place to turn for the normal health problems and emergencies that crop up in life. If you're insured or wealthy and lose a leg you can get the latest high tech prosthesis. If you're not either of those things, you get crutches! You do have private doctors and therapists you can see if you pay out of pocket don't you? That's what you'll be doing here.
I'd listen to Tekla and Steph. Canada is a better option. If you live in the right province your transition needs will be handled. I thought of moving there myself but I knew I couldn't take the winters (I'm a California girl) or distance from my kid. They're not nearly as whacky as their neighbors to the south and kill each other far less frequently. Oh, Canada!
That might matter if i had 'transition needs'
dunt need therapists
dunt need support groups
dunt need ffs/ba/stuff
dunt need to get diagniosed, as i have a script i can transfter according to my gp. if not, tinternet!
all i need is grs, which im probably going to thailand for anyway... cant hurt to be closer can it?
plus canada is too bloody cold
full of canadians
and cold...
R >:D
Quote from: Rachael on February 07, 2008, 12:44:03 PM
That might matter if i had 'transition needs'
dunt need therapists
dunt need support groups
dunt need ffs/ba/stuff
dunt need to get diagniosed, as i have a script i can transfter according to my gp. if not, tinternet!
all i need is grs, which im probably going to thailand for anyway... cant hurt to be closer can it?
plus canada is too bloody cold
full of canadians
and cold...
R >:D
I like it......and totally agree.....
If a hetrosexual woman wants a boob job or Facial surgery ...she doesn't have to go and see dozens of psychiatrists to get granted permission.......one day in the far distant future.... the psychiatry, psychotherapy and time wasting bit will be thrown out as the complete nonsense that it is.....
Berleigh, its already possibly to get FFS and a boob job without
a psychiatrist in the US and Canada and plenty of
other places (and if not in the UK,
which I'm not certain about, surely
on the mainland places like the netherland do it for sure).
Quote from: redfish on February 07, 2008, 11:55:55 AM
Do the therapists in Britain (specifically the NHS ones) tend to take a more psychoanalytic/Freudish approach to therapy? I remember hearing something about Europe using a lot of psychoanalysis and Freudish stuff in my Psychology course, but I suppose that could have been a very ethnocentric view.
Over here, from what I've experienced, we seem to mostly have Behaviorist/Skinner types, Humanistic types, and most commonly combinations of the two. Just wondering if maybe the differences in therapy styles could possibly be one of the factors involved in the health system there.
Freudish approach? I've no idea....but the NHS psychiatrists over here in the U.K don't believe in transsexualism and have the 'beat it out of them' approach...towards patients....they have no targets or structured approach and will later write to your GP (doctor) about what clothes you were wearing at the appointment , rather than a constructed anylisis of the situation......they seem to have a lack of experience or knowledge and dislike anyone who may be well read in gender dysphoria...
If you mention the HBSOC or the physical proceedure's needed for a gender change they come back at you and say 'So you don't need us then' in order to pass the buck of their responsability towards your treatment....
basically it's true and they are not needed in our journey through transition...and are merely put there as a brick wall ...to block the way ahead..
I am not certain, don't quote me on this but at one time it was no great difficulty at all for a British subject to move to Canada. If you go to BC you can get health insurance, not certain of the exact price something in the neighborhood of $40.00 per month and they cover SRS. And my experience thus far it has only gone down to freezing about half a dozen times all winter so far. Canadians? Well I been through most all of the easterns States and the only difference I found was the various accents and each place has their own distinct personalities, same in Canada.
Cindy
you miss the point quite spectuacularly...
i want to go to the US.... NOT canada... Trust me when i say i know the pros and cons of such an action. and that being a random heterosexual woman in her early 20s is my criteria for movement, not trans.
R >:D
Rachael,
I just think you should follow your dreams. If they lead to the U.S., so be it. But to take these words to heart, there is no easy ride anywhere for us on this globe. There are plenty of challenges wherever you end up. Just know what they are and be as prepared as you can be.
Best of luck to you!
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
um, as nobody sees anything but a young woman. theres not much but offical things to hide... and i can deal with the occasional official... wherever in the world, and whatever i do...
R >:D
Quote from: Rachael on February 07, 2008, 10:15:14 PM
um, as nobody sees anything but a young woman. theres not much but offical things to hide... and i can deal with the occasional official... wherever in the world, and whatever i do...
R >:D
You might want to practice driving on the opposite side of the road before you move here ;)
y2g
PS, make you sure you come and visit all of us here in the US!
It seems unrealistic, based more on want and TV/movies than reality.
Cmon now, here I thought Canada was full of Hungarians? "hee, hee, hee."
Cindy
Quote from: tekla on February 07, 2008, 10:55:43 PM
It seems unrealistic, based more on want and TV/movies than reality.
stealth or the us?
R >:D
Stealth through INS. Being discovered that the passport does not match the physical reality (and strip searches are not unique, we have this drug problem also) bad things. Why would that not be true if you were not a terrorist (which is EXACTLY the way they think). Wanting to be a cop, not unless you are a citizen - we don't hire foreigners for that, we hire them to be maids, au pairs and gardeners - sad but true. Any cop in a major city or law enforcement deal (post 9-11) must be a citizen, and have a full national security background check - for mine, and that was just working with documents, they interviewed my elementary school teachers. Most police here grow up in a gun culture, not a paintball culture, and have a background in military MP work. Full physicals are needed for citizenship or being a cop.
Quote from: tekla on February 08, 2008, 12:06:35 AM
Stealth through INS. Being discovered that the passport does not match the physical reality (and strip searches are not unique, we have this drug problem also) bad things. Why would that not be true if you were not a terrorist (which is EXACTLY the way they think). Wanting to be a cop, not unless you are a citizen - we don't hire foreigners for that, we hire them to be maids, au pairs and gardeners - sad but true. Any cop in a major city or law enforcement deal (post 9-11) must be a citizen, and have a full national security background check - for mine, and that was just working with documents, they interviewed my elementary school teachers. Most police here grow up in a gun culture, not a paintball culture, and have a background in military MP work. Full physicals are needed for citizenship or being a cop.
So....... what ya trying to say?? ??? ::)
Quote from: tekla on February 08, 2008, 12:06:35 AM
Stealth through INS. Being discovered that the passport does not match the physical reality (and strip searches are not unique, we have this drug problem also) bad things. Why would that not be true if you were not a terrorist (which is EXACTLY the way they think). Wanting to be a cop, not unless you are a citizen - we don't hire foreigners for that, we hire them to be maids, au pairs and gardeners - sad but true. Any cop in a major city or law enforcement deal (post 9-11) must be a citizen, and have a full national security background check - for mine, and that was just working with documents, they interviewed my elementary school teachers. Most police here grow up in a gun culture, not a paintball culture, and have a background in military MP work. Full physicals are needed for citizenship or being a cop.
ok, off my back kido....
for a start, i already have a pasport with a F...
ive never had one before, and my current passport has my real name, and real gender, so whats not to match? strip search? rare
And how DARE you be so demeaning... foreigners in the us can only be maids? and hired hands?
i plan on getting US citizenship, i CAN do that, its perfectly possible, i WILL become a cop, i WILL pass a security check... police forces have trans employees, its unlikely to stop me... heck, Gabrielle here GOT a job working IT for the pd, with them knowing she was trans....
gun culture? whatever
and what the fruitcage is paintball to do with anything?? ive never played the game in my life ;), full physical yes, so what?, i dont really care if you dont like me (big shock) i wont be crying because of it,
to put it bluntly, leave me alone.... ill do as i please, not how you please.
R >:D
Stealth? Well I never tried that. For one, I transitioned on the job, social worker, which required dealing with a lot of people every day. Now I have meetup groups I am running meeting in person with the members and soon will be opening a drop in center and support group for Trans People. I need to be with people, it makes me feel good to feel needed, and useful. I was talking to a drag king at a meeting tonight. She does drag king stage acts. I also have another really close friend, a humorist and musical performer.
This Saturday evening I am going to a drag king show. I will be getting dressed up. haven't done that for a while. Anyway I am finding life quite interesting these days.
Cindy
Posted on: February 08, 2008, 02:05:34 AM
I have no doubt you can do it Rachael, you are ornery enough to do anything your heart desires, but just make sure you do all your homework before you get on the plane.
Cindy
Quote from: tekla on February 08, 2008, 12:06:35 AM
Wanting to be a cop, not unless you are a citizen - we don't hire foreigners for that, we hire them to be maids, au pairs and gardeners - sad but true.
I started to quote the entire post, but to repeat what seemed to be a post designed to hurt and belittle intentionally seemed to just repeat cruelty. It seemed unnecessary to have written that, let alone repeat it.
Besides, Rach's reply was a good one. Covered the ground quite well.
We also hire 'furners' to work in computer labs, as scientists, politicians (your state does that anyhow) executives, social workers, lawyers and doctors, nurses, --- umm, any need to go on?
I understand that we sometimes rub others here the wrong way and that they retaliate. But, to do so for the sake of belittling someone seems not so nice and adds nothing to a discussion.
Sometimes the best answer is the one not given.
N~
Hi Nichole W.
I agree with you, it came through to me kind of.......well, crude I guess. Ok those may be real obstacles if it had been written as telling the person about the possible obstacles in a mite more supportive less harsh way. If you two from UK decide you want to come to BC to finish the job, well, Paula and I have an extra room for you.
Cndy
Since 50% of engineers in silicon valley are "furners" (sic),
don't really get it. Illegal immigrants are hired for the
most menial jobs, because they have no status.
thats what i thought K....
ILLEGAL imigrants, gardeners, aupaires, and maids sure... but not ANY no us person... get a grip! i think someone needs to maybe look beyond thier own trailerpark....
Economic migrants, thats people with valuable skills Tekla... are the backbone of global economic and intellect trade....
i personally know there arnt such obsticles in my path, as ive done the research, and spoken to those in the area and field...
Sure, i wont be officially stealth to the brass, but i can sure as hell live my life with nobody i interact with daily knowing...
One automatically assumes that a member of a minority will be liberal, and follow the christian teaching of do as you wish to be done by.... regardless of religion as its fairly common...
minotiries can be as biggoted and nasty as any majority member..
R >:D
Quote from: Rachael on February 07, 2008, 12:44:03 PM
all i need is grs, which im probably going to thailand for anyway... cant hurt to be closer can it?
Take a look at a globe... Great Britain is thousands of miles closer to Thailand than North America is.
Distance from London to Bangkok
Distance is 9534 kilometers or 5924 miles
Distance from New York to Bangkok
Distance is 13,936 kilometers or 8659 miles
Distance from San Francisco to Bangkok
Distance is 12,755 kilometers or 7926 miles
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/distance.html
Hey Rachael, It's your dream and your decision. I wish you the best of luck with your new life in the United States. I apologise for my earlier negativity. My own dreams seemed pretty far fetched a few years ago but I've made most of them happen anyway. I'm sure you'll do the same :police:
It's a very big place and culturally diverse. I hope you'll come to California, IMHO the nicest of the 50. There is a Golden State Peace Officers Association for LGBT police officers. They might have useful info for you. FYI, the California Highway Patrol is the top of the food chain in the world of Cali cops. You will have more graft opportunities in LA and SF though. >:D
with my degree, im after a fasttrack route to detective, PROBABLY in LA or SF, most likely LA. Do some years as detective, then apply to the feds.
maybe a pipedream, but im heading that way at full steam, and woe betide anyone who gets in my way....
do excuse me if i dont join an overt pd lgbt group, id rather not be out... stealth if i physically can...
highway patrol? :P ill stick to homicide or vice ktnx ;)
oh hypatia: yeah, BUT, there are more flights going from the west coast of the US to thailand and asia, than from the uk, For cheaper ;)
R >:D
Quote from: Rachael on February 08, 2008, 12:00:44 PM
with my degree, im after a fasttrack route to detective, PROBABLY in LA or SF, most likely LA. Do some years as detective, then apply to the feds.
maybe a pipedream, but im heading that way at full steam, and woe betide anyone who gets in my way....
do excuse me if i dont join an overt pd lgbt group, id rather not be out... stealth if i physically can...
highway patrol? :P ill stick to homicide or vice ktnx ;)
oh hypatia: yeah, BUT, there are more flights going from the west coast of the US to thailand and asia, than from the uk, For cheaper ;)
R >:D
My hat's off to you Rachael. :) PD work isn't something anyone can do, and I mean that in the mental stress way and no other. Though I find it funny that so many people want OUT of the US and so many people want IN.
As for working in the USA as a trans-person, I think education is the one that has the most roadblocks.
only if they know ;)
plus ill be imigrating with female higshchool records, female degree, and f on my pasport... *shrugs*
R >:D
I've lived both places for long periods of time. If I wanted to be a cop I'd pick San Francisco for some very practical reasons. Most important is the ratio of citizens to is much better in SF than LA. For that reason LA cops are really ruff - they kill people with little provocation. Race rioys; they happen in LA but not in SF. LAPD has a huge corruption problem. If you're not careful you could wind up at the wrong end of a gun or cell door. Besides, SF is way more fun!
Well,
If she wants to be a US citizen, then she will have all the responsibilites of a US citizen.
You might as well get started early.
For starters, If you want to come here to keep the peace and enforce the law,
I would suggest reading and furnishing yourself with a copy of the United States Constitution.
The Highest law in our land.
If you don't know that, you're not going to be much of a cop.
Everyone I know, Democrat or Republican, Conservative or Liberal has respect for that document.
It's the one thing we all agree on.
So if you can't know that one, you aren't much good to us.
Read it.
Know it.
Love it.
Read the Bill of Rights, and The Declaration of Independance.
Find out about how our government works.
The three way system of Executive, Legislative, and Judicial.
You are going to need to know these things as a citizen and and you will be tested on them.
We expect people who want to be citizens of this country, to understand the values of this country.
You need the Right to Bear Arms, and why we have it.
You need to understand Freedom of Speach, of Assembly, and of Press, and why we have those.
Of The Right to Due Process, and of a Jury of Peers.
If you want to become a US citizen I salute you.
But you are going to need more than ambition.
You are going to need and understand Patriotism, and why we have it.
I would definitely go online and talk to people who have already immagrated about how long it takes to get a Citizenship.
It takes a very long time (5-20 years) with the current broken system.
There are shortcuts available, and you should look into those.
You should most definitely contact the Police Departments you are interested in now, and start to get some idea of what thier requirements are regarding foriegn recruiting.
And what you will need to do.
You should also contact the Federal agencies that you are interested in and do the same.
I almost think it would be easier to be a Fed than a cop, as they might look more at your school info than that of your past experience.
Do expect a FULL international background check.
Do not fudge the truth anywhere on the paper as they will find out, and the time spent on corrections and re-filing and paperwork will cost you months.
As a side note, the quickest way to become a citizen and to have cop worthy qualifications is to join the US military.
They will give you a citizinship, and you will have valuble experience needed to be a cop or fed if you want.
That would actually probably be the quickest route to what you want as visa processes take a long time and a lot of money.
You would also get health insurance.
EDIT: scratch that last as shower issues and physical would mean that "don't ask, don't tell" would probably bar you from the military.
Oh well, it would've been a good idea.
The other quickest way (actually THE quickest) is to marry one of us.
Just be sure to contact the recruiters now of where you want to go a few years from now.
It will help you not have to do any guess work.
Find out EXACTLY how long it usually takes to get a citizenship.
Get the paterwork.
Don't leave anything to chance as guessing will leave you hosed once you get here.
Know for sure.
That's my advice,
Sara
Thankyou sarah, but i know all of that.
and sarah, i doubt im allowed in the US militery... considering everything... not that it wouldnt want to...
shouldnt we, um, get back on topic?
R >:D
Quote from: redfish on February 09, 2008, 12:27:03 PM
I'd be willing to bet money that the majority of Americans have not read the Constitution..
Apparently not, or they'd know that if our government isn't working, we're allowed to go to DC and take it back.
y2g
Hi Well I'm Canadian but have spent a lot of time in the US. I have read that the U.S. Constitution contains elements of the Constitutions of the five Nations of the Iroquois. It is said that Thomas Jefferson went to the New York colony to study the constitutions himself. It's no wonder that so much of the constitution was penned by Jefferson. Well if that ain't one reason for me to be proud of my ancestors the Iroquois.
Cindy
Quote from: Angel on February 08, 2008, 12:06:21 PM
As for working in the USA as a trans-person, I think education is the one that has the most roadblocks.
It depends where you want to work in education. If you wish to be an elementary School teacher in a Bible Belt state you may have problems. If you desire the same career in California it probably won't be a problem. Higher education you're unlikely find much resistance anywhere.
Quote from: Sarah on February 09, 2008, 01:29:33 AMAs a side note, the quickest way to become a citizen and to have cop worthy qualifications is to join the US military.
They will give you a citizinship, and you will have valuble experience needed to be a cop or fed if you want.
Yeah, and these days it's the quickest way to get sent to Iraq to get your @$$ shot off... They've pretty much used up all the warm bodies by now, and would love to get some fresh meat.
Posted on: February 09, 2008, 08:16:22 PM
Quote from: cindybc on February 09, 2008, 03:00:00 PMIt is said that Thomas Jefferson went to the New York colony to study the constitutions himself. It's no wonder that so much of the constitution was penned by Jefferson.
You mean James Madison? Jefferson was in Paris being the ambassador to France when the Constitution was written.
Yep, Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence. James Madison, John Jay and Alexander Hamilton are the driving forces behind the Constitution.
N~