Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I have no doubt that I am m2f, and I'm seriously thinking about/planning for transition.

I know that hormones change people in unpredictable ways, but here's the thing: I want to look like a girl, and i want to live a woman's life, but I'm not that interested in being GIRLY. I'm sure there will be times I'll want to get all dolled up, but most of the time I'll probably wear jeans, a t-shirt and sneakers. I'm very into sports, politics, video games, and films... I don't want any of that to change.. I just want to do it all as a woman.

To be a bit childish.. I want to still be ME after transition, just me with boobs and no weiner :)

Can anyone else relate? Or will hormones rewire me so much that I'll end up preferring shoe shopping to watching my Seahawks on NFL Sunday Ticket? :)

Don't see any conflict there.  No reason you can't watch the 'Hawks play the East Coast game, and still go shoe shopping.

I think if I went shoe shopping, it would be for some more New Balance sneaks :)

I am interested/afraid of how hormones will change my basic personality, if at all.

There are genetic girls who are boyish, right?
So it is 100% fine to be a trans girl and boyish.


Take me for instance. I'm not dressy or proper or super girly all the time (though I am girly. Just not anything especially girly). Heck, in a hard core gamer. I'm even in school right now studying game art and design, which is a male dominated field. I dork off with my guy friends and do stupid things all the time.

But it will never make me question my gender, which I know to be female.

As for hormones, I'm on them and my interests have not changed at all. Hormones aren't going to suddenly make you want to wear dresses and hate sports. Those are cultural things, not biological things.

For me hormones did alter my brain a fair amount and I could tell a large difference in my personality before and after I started taking them but it didn't really alter my core values or attitudes much, mainly just behaviors. And M2F tomboys seem to be a very common thing if you go by the boards here. I know I am leaning in that direction myself. Still you can craft any identity you like with some work and introspection. Perfectly okay.

Thanks for the feedback, everyone :) After transition, I hope I'll be a cute spunky tomboy geek girl :)

Quote from: Johnnie on April 29, 2008, 06:45:19 PM
Thanks for the feedback, everyone :) After transition, I hope I'll be a cute spunky tomboy geek girl :)

Word B"J

I don't dress up all that much but I do like to do it every once in a while. I really like jeans and a nice top with tennis shoes. I'm not at all that girly. I don't like sports though but I kind of run down the middle maybe a little on the fem side. I love being a woman and can't imagine being anything but. I'm post op 4 years now and think that I have been this way my whole life. I just can't imagine having something between my legs. It is just unthinkable.
Sheila

Gracie... you look... wow. :)

I'd consider myself one of those tomboys.  Nothing like a refreshing bike ride or sitting down to watch the football game (I'm in Pittsburgh so guess who I cheer for).  I can totally relate to that.

And I've said this before, there are lots of female sports fans, particularly in the under 35, the Title IX women.  Older women not so much, but hey, the clocks ticking on them and their generation anyway.  Look at how much trouble Hillary has getting anyone under 35, women in particular, to vote for her.

Yeah...I seriously doubt Hilary's ability to win the election but this isn't a political thread so I'm not going to say much more on that.  Had any of you avoided the Barbie aisle not because you didn't like them but because you didn't want to get caught being there?

Quote from: redfish on April 29, 2008, 10:06:51 PM
The way I see it, people often transition to become free - not letting yourself do things because of it would be placing yourself right back in a cage again.

A good point...

Yeah. I'm still a little bit worried, but as I said, I apparently broke my friends gaydar. I guess this is just proof I'm a huge tomboyish thing cause they basically see me as a girl thing now...

I enjoy art, science, reading, forensic shows, video games, movies, animations, anime, cartoons, thinking, action scenes, and music. Very little of that is strictly feminine. I have yet to get completely "Dolled up" or actually go out in drag cause of how nervous I truthfully am (well... I don't know if you'd consider it drag at this point.), but friend person says I could pass... So who knows?

Quote from: Johnnie on April 29, 2008, 05:28:52 PM
To be a bit childish.. I want to still be ME after transition, just me with boobs and no weiner :)

If you're worried about the possible emotional feminizing effects of estrogen, and that those changes will make you "less you," you might want to reconsider things a bit and discuss all this with a therapist.

Keep in mind that transition isn't just physical changes. There are *social* changes that come along with it. Your life will NOT be the same as it is now. Your life won't simply be you "with boobs and no weiner." There's a LOT more to it. A total context change. The loss of male privilege. On and on... changes that are difficult to anticipate, but part of the total package of which those physical changes are just a small part of.

~Kate~

Quote from: Kate on April 30, 2008, 10:47:33 AM

Quote from: Johnnie on April 29, 2008, 05:28:52 PM
To be a bit childish.. I want to still be ME after transition, just me with boobs and no weiner :)

If you're worried about the possible emotional feminizing effects of estrogen, and that those changes will make you "less you," you might want to reconsider things a bit and discuss all this with a therapist.

Keep in mind that transition isn't just physical changes. There are *social* changes that come along with it. Your life will NOT be the same as it is now. Your life won't simply be you "with boobs and no weiner." There's a LOT more to it. A total context change. The loss of male privilege. On and on... changes that are difficult to anticipate, but part of the total package of which those physical changes are just a small part of.

~Kate~

Hence why I want to see one myself. I like the emotional effects though... They've only made me a better person that aligns more with my idealism. I don't lie to myself about who I'm not. I'm not triggered into arousal every 10 seconds either and I don't fantasize about being some fighter like I used to... I'm way too peaceful for that bull->-bleeped-<-.

<-------TOMBOY!    :laugh:

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi253.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fhh78%2Fbethzerosix%2FFASTER-1.jpg&hash=b74def9d4586683a21aa3983ce2103545b5c177d)

(resized)

i wouldnt worry about becoming girly or having your interests change, i think when people say hrt made their emotions/interests more feminine or something its more of a mind over matter type of thing. i think hormones mostly just do physical changes. ive been on hormones for a couple years and my personality/emotions have always stayed the same 100%. it would be weird for me to feel like hormones suddenly made my emotions female since i already considered the way i feel to be female which is why i started hrt in the first place.

& dont worry theres lots of tomboyish transsexuals, a tomboy is just as much a woman as a girly girl. my interests & style have always been girly but personality wise i'm not traditionally soft & feminine, i'd rather be aggressive & speak my mind & be in control  >:D

omg, i totally know what you mean. im like really into being a sk8ter punk, think avril lavigne-ish (when she was 17), so i usually wear sk8ter chick stuff. sometimes i get really girly and dressed up which is fun too and i like it but most of the time its like jeans, a band tee, and some slipon shoes or a punk-ish tee with my tripp capris/pants (which have chains on them and are actually boys cause i couldnt find girls although they are like extra small :D ), a quarter sleeve hoody and some slipon shoes or converse.

so ya, i think its alright, as a matter of a fact i think i says "hey look at me, im such a female i can be a tomboy".

just remember dont let your jeans hang off your ass or get like HUGE shirts. thats not tomboyish thats boyish. ;)

Quote from: Maddie Suzumiya on April 30, 2008, 08:12:39 AM
Had any of you avoided the Barbie aisle not because you didn't like them but because you didn't want to get caught being there?

Now barbies have always been my guilty pleasure. I loved them as a kid, I love them now. Got a small collection of special edition ones in the closet as well as tons of old ones with their head and/or limbs missing. Back in the stone age aka the 80s when I was small, they came in pretty glittery gowns with big hair and they were a lot better than they are now.

Quote from: Kate on April 30, 2008, 10:47:33 AM

Quote from: Johnnie on April 29, 2008, 05:28:52 PM
To be a bit childish.. I want to still be ME after transition, just me with boobs and no weiner :)

If you're worried about the possible emotional feminizing effects of estrogen, and that those changes will make you "less you," you might want to reconsider things a bit and discuss all this with a therapist.

Keep in mind that transition isn't just physical changes. There are *social* changes that come along with it. Your life will NOT be the same as it is now. Your life won't simply be you "with boobs and no weiner." There's a LOT more to it. A total context change. The loss of male privilege. On and on... changes that are difficult to anticipate, but part of the total package of which those physical changes are just a small part of.

~Kate~

that being said there is also female priviledge that is or can be gained.  I often get treated better at stores that are mostly male dominated like hardware stores.   And despite transistioning I still love to make things and it seems that when I am shopping every guy working there asks me if I need help finding anything.   ;D  The other day i went to pick up a package at the UPS place and didn't realize that during the day you go to the front.  I was used to going around back to pick up my package during night hours.  So i mosied on back and one of the drivers went out of his way to find my packages.  Not only that but he helped me carry them out to my car while everyone else had to wait in line at the front of the store.  Ahhhh chivilry is not dead.  :)

Audrey

I pretty much had to supress anything to not be "outed" starting at an early age. :icon_suspicious: I pretended not to like anything girly, but in some cases was very flamboyant. Even now I have to take stealth to new levels, like hunching over ever so slightly when I walk sometimes, to not have a chest that "sticks out" too much due to HRT.

Audrey: yeah, had that, its infuriating... i went to a store, i knew what i wanted, the guy still treated me like an invilid and incapable of making my choices.
and when i went to buy some boots from a surplus store 'are you here for your boyfriend love?' >>

yep, social change is GREATER than the physical, but each is still physically important.

Jonnie: Estrogen wont change who you are. but it will enhance and edit bits.

Many people on this board tell how they found thier true selves after hrt, or how it changed them for the better... long passages about how they became so girly and loved pretty things.

I dont know what pills thier on.... because im still me....

im a tomboy, i love it. Baggy jeans, a tanktop, sorted!

if anything, being a tomboy helps me pass ^_^
nobody would expect a transgirl to be wearing vans and hoodies, and have an eyebrow bar? im just TOO boyish to be not a girl ^_^ if that makes sense.

Like audrey said, if transition is going to change you, its not for you. If it is, you wont change a bit inside.
R >:D

I'm tomboy-ish, and a dyke. LOL I also I've performed in a drag king show. sometimes I'm more girly, and other times I'm not. I like wearing jeans, tank tops, and skater shoes. I don't always wear make up... um, and I'm the only girl who's showed up to work several times wearing a tie. In the lesbian world I'm still considered fem, but not high-fem. I'm also considered to be pretty hot...   >:D

Just be yourself, and don't care what others think. You don't need to live up so some "feminine" ideal -- there's a lot of women who are all different.

--natalie

Quote from: Christine Eryn on May 06, 2008, 02:37:11 AM
I pretty much had to supress anything to not be "outed" starting at an early age. :icon_suspicious: I pretended not to like anything girly, but in some cases was very flamboyant. Even now I have to take stealth to new levels, like hunching over ever so slightly when I walk sometimes, to not have a chest that "sticks out" too much due to HRT.

Hahah. You're not alone on the hunching thing...

They don't seem to notice though, cause I always have been a slouchy cave-thing in my families eyes anyway...

key reason to transition: you are female, or male or whatever

masculinity, and femininity dont come into it.
R >:D

The other day someone posted a link to an unpleasant article "How to spot a transvestite."

If I were to write a guide titled "How to spot a transsexual," item number 1 would be: She's wearing pants. Pants are the transsexual woman's uniform. They mark you as a true transsexual and a true woman, since we all know real women never wear skirts.

</sarcasm>

Seriously, though, you're in good company. Femme transsexual women are getting scarce these days. Hasn't kept me from expressing my femininity, however much attitude it brings upon me from other trans women. Actually, I hardly associate with trans people IRL, I spend my time with genetic women who, incredibly, often wear skirts and dresses of their own free volition. I swear my skirts and I fit in better amongst them than in the MTF world.

Posted on: May 08, 2008, 07:51:44 PM

---

Quote from: Rachael on May 07, 2008, 05:33:57 AM
key reason to transition: you are female, or male or whatever

masculinity, and femininity dont come into it.

Granted, that statement is very true, and I agree with it 100%. But it doesn't stop me from being my authentic feminine self.

For you is your way; and for me is my way.
--Qur'an 105:6

When I first came to susans I asked a similar question. I've always been interested in
womens fashion but I have no desire to wear skirts or dresses. Personally I think what you wear
is a pesonal style choice. I dress up as a man only when I have too... for the most part
I wear jeans unless something else is required. I do want to wear casual womens clothes.

I do love to wear makeup... but I think that is because it makes me look more female and
I love the transformation that takes place. My whole attitude about myself changes when
I have makeup on.

I do like to shop.. for pretty much anything, but my other hobbies are male type hobbies
and I don't see that changing.

So I guess I would be considered a tomboy... but I've felt like that my entire life.... there
has been a girl dying to get out for a long time. But now that she can... and it looks like
other than makeup and hair style(and body changes) it will be more of the same.

Amanda

I guess it's been a stereotype that if one is MtF one must be a girly girl.  My friends were telling me that to all the other girls I'd be the worst girl in the world, but all the guys would love me because I enjoy the things they like to do.  For example I would rather pair a good beer with food than a good wine.  Oh, and working on cars and all that jazz, like the Formula SAE car we have at school.

Hypatia:  Honey, nobody threatened your right to femininity :)

Im feminine at times, but i reserve my right to listen to rock, wear baggy jeans, and grunge out :)


Redfish:Avast! Where is ze box locked up with locks? and what does that have to do with ->-bleeped-<-s?
R >:D

Quote from: Maddie Suzumiya on May 08, 2008, 11:17:52 PM
I guess it's been a stereotype that if one is MtF one must be a girly girl.  My friends were telling me that to all the other girls I'd be the worst girl in the world, but all the guys would love me because I enjoy the things they like to do.  For example I would rather pair a good beer with food than a good wine.  Oh, and working on cars and all that jazz, like the Formula SAE car we have at school.

You know its funny...
A good friend of mine once told me that she couldn't imagine me as a girl, but now she says she finally sees it. I apparently really threw her off in some ways, which apparently doesn't happen much, on account of her being quite amazing at picking things up.

I'd probably only get along with the really weird girls... And not to mention the fact that most of them are anime fangirls, so I might just be alone in that category of not caring. There are many other links though...

I mean... In that whole respect, I'd enjoy a beer and a wine. I'm really so open to things that it often confuses me as to what my favorite things are... So I'm usually able to shapeshift pretty well into social groups. Except the jock preps... I think they are a tumor of people/cells...

I guess my need is to be *female* moreso than feminine. I don't really like skirts or makeup. I like to wear things which show me, being much more concerned with the shape and fit of my clothes than their inherent femininity. I feel great in nice jeans and a fitted casual tee, but in a skirt and high heels... it's just not me. Now granted, if I found a skirt that really accentuated my shape, I'd love it... but I'm not going to wear a skirt just to wear a skirt, if you see what I mean? Likewise, I might put on a little lip gloss or blush to accentuate what's already there, but I'm not going to wear makeup just to wear makeup because it's a feminine thing to do. I like feeling sexy (well, I try, lol) and female more than feminine, which just isn't quite the same thing for me.

So am I a tomboy if I don't feel an urge to express femininity? If I value being female over being "feminine?"

~Kate~

P.S. Yes Ell, between the car talk and now the lack of femininity... things aren't looking good for me, are they? ;)

smartarse
R >:D

Exactly.  I don't really like skirts either (they make me arse look huge).  Then again, men's clothes are what fit me at the moment.  Let's face it, there's no point investing money into something that isn't going to fit me later so I might as well stick to man jeans and t-shirts while I rock out on my guitar Brian May style. 

Quote from: Rachael on May 09, 2008, 03:18:10 AM
Hypatia:  Honey, nobody threatened your right to femininity :)

You haven't seen how much crap I've had to take from certain sectors of the MTF community... the hostility... Susan's forums is a good environment pretty free of that kind of attitude. But in much of the wider MTF world... one doesn't dare be openly femme. Pants are the new orthodoxy. Witness the overwhelming sentiment in this thread against femininity. But I could not have come out and dealt with the enormous challenge of transition unless I had enough backbone to be true to my own authenticity, and now that I've succeeded in transitioning, I'm not going to give up my own authenticity for what someone else believes is proper. I just have to say I am puzzled to hear it always said that MTFs are supposed to be extra-girly. Because I never see anyone who admits to it. The tide of MTF opinion is almost unanimously contrary to that. So where the idea that we're so girly comes from is a mystery to me. I've dealt with tons of rejection and even cruelty from elsewhere in the MTF world because of my style preferences. Sorry, I brought my still-hurting feelings in here. Even though it's true as you said Susan's forums have not been mean to me, so I have no complaints about here. Carry on...

Quote from: Hypatia on May 09, 2008, 08:14:30 PM

Quote from: Rachael on May 09, 2008, 03:18:10 AM
Hypatia:  Honey, nobody threatened your right to femininity :)

You haven't seen how much crap I've had to take from certain sectors of the MTF community... the hostility... Susan's forums is a good environment pretty free of that kind of attitude. But in much of the wider MTF world... one doesn't dare be openly femme. Pants are the new orthodoxy. Witness the overwhelming sentiment in this thread against femininity. But I could not have come out and dealt with the enormous challenge of transition unless I had enough backbone to be true to my own authenticity, and now that I've succeeded in transitioning, I'm not going to give up my own authenticity for what someone else believes is proper. I just have to say I am puzzled to hear it always said that MTFs are supposed to be extra-girly. Because I never see anyone who admits to it. The tide of MTF opinion is almost unanimously contrary to that. So where the idea that we're so girly comes from is a mystery to me. I've dealt with tons of rejection and even cruelty from elsewhere in the MTF world because of my style preferences. Sorry, I brought my still-hurting feelings in here. Even though it's true as you said Susan's forums have not been mean to me, so I have no complaints about here. Carry on...

Really? Cuz MtFs, especially the older MtFs I know have always complained that in the past the trans communities they were associated with were always very critical of MtFs that were not extraordinarily feminine.

Really, it is an over-compensation thing. "i was not born a girl so i have to defend myself and my certainty that I am a woman by being the classical 1950's mother ultra femme always wearing pearls and make up and..." etc and are, in my opinion, jealous of those who do not force themselves or have to TRY to be feminine of their confidence.

though I am not saying you are that person :"x not at all.

Just be yourself.  If you are sure you are female inside, then go for it.  I usually like jeans myself, though I do love cute tops.  I know a lot of GGs who are bigger football fans than I've ever been. 

Kristi

Quote from: Gracie FAISE on May 09, 2008, 08:39:35 PM
Really, it is an over-compensation thing.

Speaking of overcompensation, I could have sworn that the tendency toward being tomboy looks awfully like trying too hard to prove something. And jealousy? Maybe I detect a certain jealousy of those who can pull off wearing attractive styles.

I wasn't there years ago, so I'm not addressing that. I'm talking about what I'm going through right now. And right now I feel alienated among my own tribe. Regardless, I feel perfectly at home being femme among genetic women, which is all that matters to me. And there are a lot more of them. When I hang out with genetic women, I can feel free to be my femme self and be accepted, unlike among MTFs.

Prove something? pull off attractive styles?

love, its NOTHING to do with your body.... look at natal females that are 'tomboys'


When i wore a snazzy outfit to a work do, i shocked everyone... 'omg why do you wear jeans and hoodies, you have a fantastic figure' etc....

i can wear what i like, but i wear what i want.

I dont HAVE to wear ultra feminine clothing to look like a female. so i dont. and it suits me to a tee.... (gedit?)
R >:D

well... as for me.. i am tomboyish in my love for cars, building things, and sk8r inspired styles.  i drive an 89 vw golf, (girly), love modern design (still girly), manga style art and designer toys (kawaii=ultra girly) and have you seen emo sk8 styles? so, i guess i am just a girl in a boy body doing her best. lol.  you know.... there is some benefit being born the wrong gender..... i like to get dirty.  ;D   and i dont have a "cant sit on couch"... lolz

Quote from: Hypatia on May 09, 2008, 11:58:31 PM

Quote from: Gracie FAISE on May 09, 2008, 08:39:35 PM
Really, it is an over-compensation thing.

Speaking of overcompensation, I could have sworn that the tendency toward being tomboy looks awfully like trying too hard to prove something. And jealousy? Maybe I detect a certain jealousy of those who can pull off wearing attractive styles.

I wasn't there years ago, so I'm not addressing that. I'm talking about what I'm going through right now. And right now I feel alienated among my own tribe. Regardless, I feel perfectly at home being femme among genetic women, which is all that matters to me. And there are a lot more of them. When I hang out with genetic women, I can feel free to be my femme self and be accepted, unlike among MTFs.

Wah? Nah, I can dress nicely. I have great style and could easily look well in dresses and skirts and nice blouses. I just don't have the money, and on top of that I live with my parents adn they're still not ready to see me that dressed up.

And I was not just talking about long ago, i'm talking about now. I dunno where you're from, but everyone I know feels alienated for not being really feminine.

Hi Gracie FAISE, "chees wizz hon," I certainly see a girl in your avatar, maybe your parents should invest in a couple of bucks for eye glasses if they don't see what is obvious right in front of their eyes.  Well anyway hon I do think you are a pretty attractive girl.

Me, well even when I was in guy mode I wouldn't wear anything else but men's slacks and sport shirt with some variety of colors. Then I came out full time for the last 8 years ago I believe I began wearing skirts and tops which was the usual most social workers wore to work. During the hot weather at home or just bee bopping around town I liked, actually still do, love wearing sundresses.  Now would you believe that I am once more into doing social work at a woman's shelter, and I wear slacks and a top.

I am not to picky or choosy though, I just wear what ever the other girls wear. My best friend *Helen* I hung around with from the age of 11 until 15 years old, she was a tom boy and did quite well handling herself in a street fight. She was the chief between the two of us and I respected her and I did what she asked me to do. We had a lot of fun, almost constantly getting into mischief, like small time stuff. Sometimes the friendly neighborhood cop gave us a ride home.   

Cindy

It is different for parents. Harder to see you as you're gender and not your sex. I understand their troubles. I have patience so it is fine. I will move out some time in the next year or two and then I'll be able to dress how I want, which will be really fun. But even then it might take a bit. I'm waiting for my hormones to catch up. I'm still self conscious about my figure to an extent.

I believe you will do well Gracie FAISE hon. You sound very much like you have your stuff together. But if you happen to stub your toe on a rock while on your journey please drop in and I am sure I'll have some band-aids around to fix your toe with.

Cindy 

I see Gracie's issue...  although my parents couldn't accept even the notion of girl full stop, i see where she is coming form.

Tbh, tomboy is a means to an end sometimes.

But its the ultimate test of looking truly female, if you pass wearing nearly all mens clothes or andro clothes XD
R >:D

Quote from: Gracie FAISE on May 10, 2008, 01:25:58 AM
It is different for parents. Harder to see you as you're gender and not your sex. I understand their troubles. I have patience so it is fine. I will move out some time in the next year or two and then I'll be able to dress how I want, which will be really fun. But even then it might take a bit. I'm waiting for my hormones to catch up. I'm still self conscious about my figure to an extent.

I wouldn't mind that at all... I'd just keep all of the clothes hidden somewhere for when they went to sleep... Cause lets be honest. We're probably more nocturnally inclined than our parents most of the time.

I have the feeling that my mom thinks it a phase...

She's unsure about it and stuff... And is pretty clingy to her notions of feminine, versus female, and gay vs. straight, and all of this other nonsense. She personally believes that bisexual people do not exist, and thinks that I'd have to like boys in order for me to be a girl...
She's asked me on several occasions if I were "gay" instead of "gender troubled" and I'm always pretty solid on my answer. Of course... Now I seem to not really mind the fantasy of boys, but in reality I'd most likely always go for a girl... Of course... I like dominant ones, cause I'm freakin' hopeless on my own with someone worse than me... But thats not the issue. My concern is what the problem is, not who I'd date in 4 years or more. I'm not even interested in marriage, cause the conventional family ideals frankly scare me, and don't sit well in me...

My mom has given me absolutely no support. She let me start seeing a therapist, who wasn't a specialist, and that doesn't DO anything... I'm on good terms with him, but when he referred me to the GI Clinic of New England, my mom called up and told me I couldn't even go cause the insurance wouldn't cover it. Thanks mom.... Thanks a lot. Now we're on a different insurance, and she still hasn't lifted a finger. Its like she doesn't want to do anything, cause she's afraid I'm right. Its crap! I can't wait to see the look on her face when she finds out how much deeper into this I am than she currently believes. I don't really trust her right now, and telling her would just ruin everything... So not yet...

Wow... I rant. Must be cause I'm all emo at 3 am, and am only up right now cause I had to finish comic work.... I am... DONE

Quote from: Rachael on May 10, 2008, 01:48:22 AMBut its the ultimate test of looking truly female, if you pass wearing nearly all mens clothes or andro clothes XD

That's what I mean about needing to prove something. So you can do that-- so what? I have found what works for me, and I pass well, I live full time and everyone genders me female. What works for me is to dress feminine and conservative, which is fortunately the style I like, and I have no difficulties living my life as a woman everywhere I go. I don't care about passing in men's clothes. Why would I want to? I hate men's clothes.

I think part of the problem is too many MTFs have an appallingly bad concept of what feminine style is, and get it all wrong. The tricky thing is that for it to work it has to be done very well and very tastefully, which is why a conservative approach works for me. At your age, you may find a conservative look won't fit in with your life. I understand that. At my age, I've found it's what works best. By feminine I don't mean over the top with sparkly, mini, frilly glitz. I go for a soft, understated style that looks classy and elegant. Some of the American ladies may recognize the name Coldwater Creek, if so that will give an idea of what I'm talking about. My girlfriend takes me shopping there a lot, and we help each trying on outfits and picking out what looks best on us. Anyone who isn't expert at pulling off feminine styles had better stick to jeans and sneakers, hard to go wrong with that.

I'm in the Washington DC area, where women feel free to be stylish and wear dresses, and trans women insist on pants. I have never seen any group of transsexual women where femininity is favored, I wonder where you are posting from, Gracie. It's like there's a transsexual fear of femininity, so much that they hide in frump looks hoping they'll not be noticed in the crowd--and they resent when anyone dresses stylishly. I have conquered my fear of being seen and wear nice styles with total confidence and unfeigned nonchalance--which is essential to passing. I empathize with the fear, there have been times when it crippled me, but I made myself get over it and now live quite happily full time as a woman--a modestly elegant woman at that.

too many MTFs have an appallingly bad concept of what feminine style is

So does Brittany Spears. 

The first question is, where are you going, followed by what are you doing?  That should be the beginnings of a guide.  Dress, more or less, like everyone else there.  Like Rachel and her schoolgirls in disgrace chums.  What is right for one place is out of place in another.

That's true, and the way I dress I fit in well with the other women I work with and am friends with. They're almost all genetic women. Except that two of my close friends are post-op transsexual women, and they wear skirts-- but they have no contact with any MTF community. I guess the 3 of us form a little skirt-wearing MTF community of our own.

Anyway, for this thread the point I wanted to make is that Johnnie has nothing to worry about, she would face bigger hassles from other trans women if she preferred femininity. As she is, she will do just fine, and this thread bears that out.

Quote from: Hypatia on May 10, 2008, 12:09:52 PM

Quote from: Rachael on May 10, 2008, 01:48:22 AMBut its the ultimate test of looking truly female, if you pass wearing nearly all mens clothes or andro clothes XD

That's what I mean about needing to prove something. So you can do that-- so what? I have found what works for me, and I pass well, I live full time and everyone genders me female. What works for me is to dress feminine and conservative, which is fortunately the style I like, and I have no difficulties living my life as a woman everywhere I go. I don't care about passing in men's clothes. Why would I want to? I hate men's clothes.

I think part of the problem is too many MTFs have an appallingly bad concept of what feminine style is, and get it all wrong. The tricky thing is that for it to work it has to be done very well and very tastefully, which is why a conservative approach works for me. At your age, you may find a conservative look won't fit in with your life. I understand that. At my age, I've found it's what works best. By feminine I don't mean over the top with sparkly, mini, frilly glitz. I go for a soft, understated style that looks classy and elegant. Some of the American ladies may recognize the name Coldwater Creek, if so that will give an idea of what I'm talking about. My girlfriend takes me shopping there a lot, and we help each trying on outfits and picking out what looks best on us. Anyone who isn't expert at pulling off feminine styles had better stick to jeans and sneakers, hard to go wrong with that.

I'm in the Washington DC area, where women feel free to be stylish and wear dresses, and trans women insist on pants. I have never seen any group of transsexual women where femininity is favored, I wonder where you are posting from, Gracie. It's like there's a transsexual fear of femininity, so much that they hide in frump looks hoping they'll not be noticed in the crowd--and they resent when anyone dresses stylishly. I have conquered my fear of being seen and wear nice styles with total confidence and unfeigned nonchalance--which is essential to passing. I empathize with the fear, there have been times when it crippled me, but I made myself get over it and now live quite happily full time as a woman--a modestly elegant woman at that.

I'm from San Diego California. Annwyn (another poster on this forum) lives more up north than me in the same state and she can voucher for me with her first hand experience of being ostracized in her own irl trans support groups for not looking or dressing feminine. Also, in my support groups we have brought up on a few occasions the pressure many transmen and women have to be more masculine/feminine.

I think all this stuff is regional, so I see little point in arguing.

Annwyn (another poster on this forum) lives more up north than me in the same state

Odd, she has said several times that she lives in, or near Paris Island, which is in Beaufort, South Carolina.  That's a whole 'nother ocean.  And I've been to many TG events in SF (which, as it turns out, is north of you) and never seen anyone get grief for what they wore.

Quote from: tekla on May 10, 2008, 12:44:21 PM
Annwyn (another poster on this forum) lives more up north than me in the same state

Odd, she has said several times that she lives in, or near Paris Island, which is in Beaufort, South Carolina.  That's a whole 'nother ocean.  And I've been to many TG events in SF (which, as it turns out, is north of you) and never seen anyone get grief for what they wore.

Hrmm, You're right about Annwyn. I thought she was in LA for some reason...

As for SF, that's a whole 'nother world from San Diego, lol. But like I already said, It is all regional I guess.

Quote from: Hypatia on May 10, 2008, 12:25:04 PM
she would face bigger hassles from other trans women if she preferred femininity.

I dunno, I think we all feel pressures from the Opposite Camp, whatever that may be for each of us. While no one has ever been mean to me about it, I've certainly heard it suggested that I wear more makeup, dress more femininely and should study the women around me so I could better mimick their mannerisms and behaviours... all with an implied, "why'd you even bother transitioning if you don't wanna do all the fun stuff?" puzzlement.

And when I try to explain that I don't feel any urge to "express myself" via clothing styles or feminine mannerisms, that I wouldn't go fulltime until I was passing reasonably well, I'm told I have "self-acceptance" issues. Whenever I mention I never tried crossdressing until my thirties, I hear "well that's OK, I wouldn't worry about it too much... as long as you know who you are inside it should be OK..."

Thing is, I can see where it makes sense for people who want to express femininity to basically just suck it up, "accept themselves," and go out "enfemme" as soon as they can find the courage to do so. But it made no sense for me to do that, as I don't care about expressing femininity per se. I just had to function as a female in society, and everything I've done has been to flip that switch within society and my own mind... everything has been a means to that end, and not goals in themselves. And being seen as a male in women's clothing wouldn't get me there, no matter how much "self acceptance" I had.

I'm a bit touchy about all this too, as it's frustrating to constantly be told I don't "accept myself," or that I'm "hiding" or whatever because I don't do those things or share those motivations. And I'm still convinced the reason it took forever for me to get an HRT letter was because I never showed up for sessions or groups "enfemme," which again must have meant I didn't "accept myself." I never tried to perfect my "presentation" or anything like that.

And I'm NOT saying I didn't have to do those things because I was always sooooo female already or anything. Compared to most of the TSs I've met, I'm something of a dismal failure presentation-wise, lol. But STILL, what you see is what you get. This IS me, warts and male habits and lack of femininity and all, lol...

All water under the bridge now, but it really left a bad taste in my mouth.

~Kate~

yeah, theres a massive pressure of m2fs should be feminine... in gender clinics, support groups etc, fug it.
Hypatia: fine, feminine works for you, but its irelevant to the topic, 'TOMBOYS'

Tekla: OI! we are not denegrates! its a club theme night :P yous clearly too old to get it :P
R >:D

Like dirt, I was around when they invented that look, which is a combination of 'naughty and nice' taking what is by tradition a teen age / High School look and putting a more adult (or at least non-uniform) twist, like the bare midriff or fishnets or FM pumps.  And its not degenerate - though in part its designed to appeal to a certain sexual preoccupation, its just disgrace, and its a fashion term, a name for a costume, not a values judgment - unless you are really trying to attract people who are looking for a 16 year old GF.

I prefer skirts, especially long "hippie" type that women wear for contradancing or wrap skirts. When I transitioned, some friends asked why couldn't I tone it down and wear women's slacks and shirts. :( Boring! ::) Jeez, if I have to wear pants, I might as well just wear men's jeans... I got a drawer full of them. 

Funny thing, even though I like wearing skirts, I'm not ultra femme, I prefer not wearing any makeup, and maybe earrings, no fancy jewelry. Mostly jeans and flannel shirts are OK.

Z

I love fishnet... SO MUCH. Thats pretty much all I know in this terrible world..

I guess I don't get this whole conversation.  Isn't the point to be able to dress and express ourselves in a what that matches who we are inside?   Since I believe it is, I could care less what this group or another group thinks of me.  It's one of the reasons I don't join groups.  Lighten up, people, and enjoy this!

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

the point we are slowly exposing through meticulous forensic excavation, is that most ->-bleeped-<-s seem to think feminine = female or equate femininity with femaleness.

Some of us are confident enough in ourselves as women to take up that right that our sisters died for and bloodywell wear trousers if we want to! [/huzzah]
R >:D

Hmmmm, Yea I haven't been to very many TS support groups, they were just to far away from where I live, but often enough to notice those who were some  overdressed to my opinion and others very conservativly, like in female clothes but more like the type of clothes one wears to work in an office. I adopted the conservative type female wear but always dressed according to what ever I was doing that way. Like digging a ditch with a shovel, I wore men's trousers and a mans shirt. When I was shoveling snow I wore clothes suited to do that type of work.

Now in my new job at the women's shelter I dress like the other girls dress, which mostly consists of tops and women's slacks. I never liked jeans because I get a rash wearing them. Sometimes wear ladies sportswear when on a road trip. I will wear what is appropriate for the beach. Shorts and a halter top for going hiking. yea I look pretty good for my age and it feels good to be able to show off some of the merchandise occasionally.

Cindy   

Does the tomboy preference have anything to do with how we were socialized growing up?

Quote from: Maddie Suzumiya on May 10, 2008, 11:57:08 PM
Does the tomboy preference have anything to do with how we were socialized growing up?

Probably a little. I mean... We're comfortable in areas which we have occupied in the past sometimes. Not to mention that most lifestyles and interests branch off from what you already had.


Its all connected...

Quote from: Rachael on May 10, 2008, 04:20:09 PM
the point we are slowly exposing through meticulous forensic excavation, is that most ->-bleeped-<-s seem to think feminine = female or equate femininity with femaleness.

Some of us are confident enough in ourselves as women to take up that right that our sisters died for and bloodywell wear trousers if we want to! [/huzzah]
R >:D

The only message I get around here is that antifeminine=female. Where are these "most ->-bleeped-<-s" of which you speak? I've never met anyone who believes that.

Quote from: Hypatia on May 11, 2008, 12:38:39 AM

Quote from: Rachael on May 10, 2008, 04:20:09 PM
the point we are slowly exposing through meticulous forensic excavation, is that most ->-bleeped-<-s seem to think feminine = female or equate femininity with femaleness.

Some of us are confident enough in ourselves as women to take up that right that our sisters died for and bloodywell wear trousers if we want to! [/huzzah]
R >:D

The only message I get around here is that antifeminine=female. Where are these "most ->-bleeped-<-s" of which you speak? I've never met anyone who believes that.

Nor have I met the ones you speak of.

When I started going out as a female, I felt like I had to be like totally girly and always felt the need to dress to the nines, and in a way that I found attractive. Over time, I discovered that I attracted mostly guys and cross-dressers when dressed that way and I am not really into guys. I have since evolved to the point of just enjoying blending as a female and have discovered that genetic women seem to find this more attractive and that suits me just fine.

On a personal level, there is just something about ultrafeminine women that I still find alluring and I tend to want to emulate the qualities that I find most attractive. I guess I am a girly girl at heart.

Hi Jeannette hon, I agree with you sista. There will always be that gap we missed growing up as girls, nothing we can to about that except to learn through observing other females around us. I had the privilage of working along side other women for 8 years and still do. I am passable enough to feel comfortable where ever I go. What is both amusing and nice is to watch the men folk going out of their way opening doors and even have them carry som of my bags to the car while having some short but nice little conversations. At least my greatest asset is I love to chat with other people around me, I am a chatterbox and I ain't neva going to give up my wonderful gift to gab.  ;D

Cindy

I'm sorry, I'm not a MtF, but I just HAD to comment in this thread (your threads are always so interesting and teeming with various insight and drama).

I'm a FtM and I don't think my 'plight' is much different from that of a MtF---we tend to overcompensate and act more masculine or feminine until we're comfortable and passing. In my case I had to be dripping with masculinity to pass as a male...because genetic males are all masculine (or so was my view). This was especially true while I was transitioning and was trying to pass. Unfortunately it gives the wrong impression---if you are passing it makes you look just plain ODD to everyone around you, and if you're not passing, it outs you for trying too damn hard.

Once I 'grew up' and was passing and being transgendered was no longer this big part of my life, I realized that I -hated- a lot of that macho masculine crap and wanted to just be me. I'm naturally masculine, though I hate most traditional male passtimes (such as sports, cars, ect.), but I do have my feminine qualities---I was raised with them and no amount of forcing myself to change will alter that. I like to dabble in the kitchen, grow things, and I like things to be clean, dammit.

The key to happiness is just embracing who you are. You don't have to prove anything to anyone. Don't alter your behavior or interests to pass---once you can physically pass no one will question those things. If you like traditional boy-type things, who cares? Lots of girls do. Just like lots of girls like some traditional girl-type things. EVERYONE has a mixture of both---genetic men, women, trans men and women. Just do what makes you happy...forcing femininity (or masculinity) in someone's face doesn't help you pass is my point.

But more to the purpose of the thread...hormones will not alter your interests/behaviors, but it will alter sex drive, and how emotional you are. Women, due to hormones, are 'hard wired' to be more nuturing, emotional, and process-oriented (rather than goal-oriented). Taking hormones should cause those things to alter, but it's not going to change who you are.

To be honest, after I started on Testosterone, and have been on it for nearly a decade now, I've found I started to embrace more traditional feminine aspects about myself that I used to deny, but I've also found I've become more neutral and logical when it comes to my feelings. I'm less emotional, more goal-oriented and display more male biological behavioral traits.

I'd love to see how everyone's perception of tomboy, feminine, or masculine changes after several years of being on hormones and passing comfortably---when being trans is no longer in the forefront of their minds.

Quote from: Jeannette on May 11, 2008, 02:31:37 AM
Natal females can get away with acting in a tomoyish way because they've been socialized as females from birth & they have not passability concerns as most trans women do. Peeps will never doubt that Sigourney Weaver, KD Lang, Laura Prepon, Sara Gilbert & other tomboyish women are female.  Trans women have not that kind of luck unless they transitioned in their early teens & they're very passable physically & facially (e.g. body language, voice, body frame amongst other peculiarities).  So I do what I can & exploit my best female features because I don't want to be read as "male or trans" in place of a "mannish woman.

To be honest, i think you pass BETTER, as others have said. when you are just 'normal'. Today, a lot of women are tomboyish. and i tell you one thing from my experience. I'm visibly tomboyish. I wear baggy jeans, sneakers, teeshirts/tanks, i rarely wear much makeup, i have 4 piercings in my ears, 1 in my eyebrow (bar) when people look at me. '->-bleeped-<-' is the last thing on thier mind.

The popular social view of a transsexual is a mincing dragqueen dressed to the 9s, wearing thier ballgown to do grocery shopping etc... Sure, it may not work for all, but i've found i'm comfortable in my ways. Nobody reads me as remotely male. hell, when i got my last job before going full time last easter. I applied wearing baggy jeans, hoodie, and looking as andro as i could. (still had old name then) Applied, was given the job. Got my first paycheck, realised they thought i was a girl anyway! so i decided to not bother telling em then :P

With regards to the anti feminine, well, it seems almost the rule in this country, largely at gender clinics, and in transpeople i've come into contact with, if you are not feminine, you are not a woman according to them.

Susan's may have a larger feminist population, which is hardly a bad thing. Susan's is not all trans people... :P

From my experience, and this is mine, not yours, not anyone else's... this is what i'e seen. But there seems to be a stigma against transwomen that are 'masculine' they are seen as 'not proper ->-bleeped-<-s' Its certainly how the UK medical establishment sees things... hell, some GID clinics will RESET your RLE if you wear trousers...

most will delay you if you aren't appropriately feminine, or don't put in enough effort..... ie, heels, makeup, skirt etc... its a bit bonkers...
R >:D

Quote from: discarded on May 11, 2008, 03:34:24 AM
I'm sorry, I'm not a MtF, but I just HAD to comment in this thread (your threads are always so interesting and teeming with various insight and drama).

I'm a FtM and I don't think my 'plight' is much different from that of a MtF---we tend to overcompensate and act more masculine or feminine until we're comfortable and passing. In my case I had to be dripping with masculinity to pass as a male...because genetic males are all masculine (or so was my view). This was especially true while I was transitioning and was trying to pass. Unfortunately it gives the wrong impression---if you are passing it makes you look just plain ODD to everyone around you, and if you're not passing, it outs you for trying too damn hard.

Once I 'grew up' and was passing and being transgendered was no longer this big part of my life, I realized that I -hated- a lot of that macho masculine crap and wanted to just be me. I'm naturally masculine, though I hate most traditional male passtimes (such as sports, cars, ect.), but I do have my feminine qualities---I was raised with them and no amount of forcing myself to change will alter that. I like to dabble in the kitchen, grow things, and I like things to be clean, dammit.

The key to happiness is just embracing who you are. You don't have to prove anything to anyone. Don't alter your behavior or interests to pass---once you can physically pass no one will question those things. If you like traditional boy-type things, who cares? Lots of girls do. Just like lots of girls like some traditional girl-type things. EVERYONE has a mixture of both---genetic men, women, trans men and women. Just do what makes you happy...forcing femininity (or masculinity) in someone's face doesn't help you pass is my point.

But more to the purpose of the thread...hormones will not alter your interests/behaviors, but it will alter sex drive, and how emotional you are. Women, due to hormones, are 'hard wired' to be more nuturing, emotional, and process-oriented (rather than goal-oriented). Taking hormones should cause those things to alter, but it's not going to change who you are.

To be honest, after I started on Testosterone, and have been on it for nearly a decade now, I've found I started to embrace more traditional feminine aspects about myself that I used to deny, but I've also found I've become more neutral and logical when it comes to my feelings. I'm less emotional, more goal-oriented and display more male biological behavioral traits.

I'd love to see how everyone's perception of tomboy, feminine, or masculine changes after several years of being on hormones and passing comfortably---when being trans is no longer in the forefront of their minds.

You kind of hit the nail on the head I believe. I still have the same exact aspirations and interests as before, but I am feeling the "Nurture" of the Estrogen. I like it though... I was never really that emotionally out there unless I argued with my mom, which is kind of hard anyway cause I love her. I'm still not overly emotional, but I find that I care about my best friends a lot more and in a more worried way. I feel... I don't know, more responsible in a different way. Less like this vision of a cold super hero I used to have of myself, cause I'd save my friends asses SO MANY TIMES. It would annoy me. Now I almost enjoy my position. I welcome the change, cause if anything it makes me less cold than before, and much more human-feeling. Don't get me wrong, I hate the human race, but I still value my friends, and being better to them is a good thing. Its kind of cool actually, cause I'll always keep the cold dissecting logic, but now I have a second perspective on life that is very much less depressing, which embraces the whole, over the pieces. I can now view it both ways because my brain knows how to do both...

You're right too... Cause once I do pass (if said day ever arrives), I will most likely have the same style and ideas for clothing and just calibrate it to fit me in my new form. Not overly fem or masc. : ]

Quote from: discarded on May 11, 2008, 03:34:24 AMUnfortunately it gives the wrong impression---if you are passing it makes you look just plain ODD to everyone around you, and if you're not passing, it outs you for trying too damn hard.

This is where I think misunderstanding gets in.
This assumption that to be "feminine" or "masculine" always has to mean "trying too damn hard," being artificial, standing out from those around you. The assumption that as in the example that Rachael gave trans women are ridiculous drag queens, and that's all that femininity means, and it can never mean anything more than that.

Obviously, I'm not defending any such thing. We seem to be using the same word for two entirely different concepts.

When I use the word femininity, I'm thinking of my natural style which suits me the best. It allows me to fit in amongst women without standing out. Believe me, I've tried going that route of wearing pants and no makeup. That was a complete washout, because that is not me, and I felt like I was fake or trying too hard when I went that route. It did not work for me at all.

There's always this assumption that femininity means bad style. It makes it sound like no one has seen any examples of successful, chic feminine looks. There's this assumption that every time it's done, it's done wrong.  If you saw me, you'd see how to do it right. I know I'm doing it right because of the success in transition that it's brought me. Like I said, I fit in well with the women around me. This is my message that seems to have been lost on everyone here-- Femininity can be a good thing, if it suits you well as an individual, and if you are skilled at doing it right. I thrive on it and wouldn't want to live any other way. I've always felt at home in female activities and social patterns. I've always hated male thought patterns, male activities like sports/war/guns/power tools/mechanical stuff, and resented that such things were forced on me growing up. The only stereotypically male things that I've incorporated into my life are an ability to read maps and to parallel park. Otherwise, I have no use for any of it. It would be no use for me to live tomboy, it would be just as fake and unsuccessful as if you lasses were to be girly. But I don't know if I've communicated that very well. So many of you don't seem able to look outside your own personal point of view. I can see how we're all alike in that we each have found how to be comfortable in our own individual authenticity, and that is how it ought to be.

QuoteWomen, due to hormones, are 'hard wired' to be more nuturing, emotional, and process-oriented (rather than goal-oriented). Taking hormones should cause those things to alter, but it's not going to change who you are.

You're so right. All my life, before I came out and began HRT, there had been a war within me between my female brain's natural tendencies to be nurturing, emotional, and process-oriented, versus the male socialization imposed on me where only being detached and goal-oriented would do. No wonder I muddled through life with such a tangled mess inside me. Once I got on HRT, the estrogen reinforced and confirmed my innate female tendencies and untangled me inside. No longer at war within me, it felt so good to cast off the unwanted male socialization once and for all. Like setting down a heavy burden I'd been carrying all my life, and finally getting a chance to live my real self.

As for the British gender clinics taking away from your RLE if you wear pants-- that's just so stupid and f**ked up of them. I have always defended women's right to wear pants if they choose-- as anyone who has a clue about the real world will see that women always have this choice (as long as they don't belong to extreme reactionary fundie religious sects). I voted for Hillary Clinton, and when was the last time you saw her in a skirt? Sounds like the British gender clinics are horribly out of touch with the real world. Do they live in a cave and never see the light of day? At the Whitman-Walker Clinic in Washington DC, where I go for HRT, there is no such nonsense. Whitman-Walker is privately, charitably funded and run, and exists to help everyone LGBT. Their transgender clinic is very compassionate, down to earth, and bull->-bleeped-<--free. I feel so lucky I'm with them. You can be whoever you are there, and it's cool.

Hi Discarded, I just had an interesting thought. I was just thinking about "wow!!" wouldn't it be interesting to come back here and meet each other again after 8 years. I was away from this place for 8 years then decided to come back out of curiosity but I was also bored and needed something to do so I decided to remain here and do my best to do my part at giving support for anyone who is in need.

Unfortunately I have not run into anyone from 8 years back yet, unless I am not recognise them. But the interesting part I have discovered is that most of the membership now are much younger folks, some still kids. But I must say that this new generation are truly an awesome bunch. Way different then what I was accustomed to 8 years ago. These kids are dedicated to becoming who they know they are and I must love and admire them for their determination and tenacity of sticking it out with college and University and finding productive work to pay their way and then following up on some career or another, to me I believe would take a lot of effort in light of the statistics of acquiring gainful employment as TS without being rejected or canned.

Who ever said that it would be easy just wanting to be ourselves, a very discouraging task at best. Anyway I think it would be interesting to come back and say "howdy!!!" in 8 years from now. Tom boy? yea to a certain extent I suppose, it takes a lot of guts to get past this particular stumbling block called Transexuality. But then women are also strong within themselves, they have to be to put up with all the crap out there.

By the way all, Happy Mothers day.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi11.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa191%2Fcynthiag932%2Fnativeprinces.jpg&hash=1ecf39e192325b8c54f8452278ac8c90059133c6)

Cindy   

I think the bottom line here is

Just be yourself. Like make up and skirts? Fine. Like beat up jeans and band tees? Fine. Whatever. If that is who you are and what you are comfortable wearing, so be it. Don't feel subjected to dress and act one way and not the other nor subject others to dressing and acting one way and not the other.

There is no need for overcompensation, whatever form that overcompensation takes.

Quote from: Gracie FAISE on May 11, 2008, 04:30:05 PM
I think the bottom line here is

Just be yourself. Like make up and skirts? Fine. Like beat up jeans and band tees? Fine. Whatever.

It's more complicated than skirts and band tees.  I'm like you.  I wear jeans, loose tank tops and never wear make up when I'm comfortably sitting at home.  At work or when I go out it's quite a different story.  The problem with "being yourself" is that some transsexual peeps equate that phrase with refusing to make a gender role change.  They want to act and look as their former selves but want all the benefits of their target gender ??? sorry but that's a load of tripe!

Be moderate in all things, including moderation.  So, at times, over the top isn't even far enough.  Cherish and relish those times.  Play it to the hilt, and as Carly Simon once said - walk into the party like you're walking onto a yacht.  And that's cool too.  Really, don't show up to the opera in casual friday rags, don't wear a little black dress (or tux) to paint the barn.  Now, from time to time, its possible, and perhaps necessary to violate that.  I see people dressed to the nines in Safeway from time to time, but they are not doing the weekly shopping, they are buying wine and liquor for the limo parked outside, so -- you do what you must.  If your going to a gamer/comix/Anime convention, remember the 'comic book guy' in the Simpson's is not that far off the mark and make sure your T-Shirt does not reach the top of your elastic-waist workout pants (not that you've ever worked out, yeesh).  D&D was never a fashion statement, male or female.

Quote from: Yvonne on May 11, 2008, 05:25:53 PM

Quote from: Gracie FAISE on May 11, 2008, 04:30:05 PM
I think the bottom line here is

Just be yourself. Like make up and skirts? Fine. Like beat up jeans and band tees? Fine. Whatever.

It's more complicated than skirts and band tees.  I'm like you.  I wear jeans, loose tank tops and never wear make up when I'm comfortably sitting at home.  At work or when I go out it's quite a different story.  The problem with "being yourself" is that some transsexual peeps equate that phrase with refusing to make a gender role change.  They want to act and look as their former selves but want all the benefits of their target gender ??? sorry but that's a load of tripe!

I guess I can't really relate to that then. I've never really had to try to take a female gender role. It's just always been there. Whenever I had to try was to take male gender roles.

Posted on: May 11, 2008, 03:56:31 PM

---

Quote from: tekla on May 11, 2008, 05:49:44 PM
Be moderate in all things, including moderation.  So, at times, over the top isn't even far enough.  Cherish and relish those times.  Play it to the hilt, and as Carly Simon once said - walk into the party like you're walking onto a yacht.  And that's cool too.  Really, don't show up to the opera in casual friday rags, don't wear a little black dress (or tux) to paint the barn.  Now, from time to time, its possible, and perhaps necessary to violate that.  I see people dressed to the nines in Safeway from time to time, but they are not doing the weekly shopping, they are buying wine and liquor for the limo parked outside, so -- you do what you must.  If your going to a gamer/comix/Anime convention, remember the 'comic book guy' in the Simpson's is not that far off the mark and make sure your T-Shirt does not reach the top of your elastic-waist workout pants (not that you've ever worked out, yeesh).  D&D was never a fashion statement, male or female.

I think that is a given already. I'm sure everyone knows "dress professionally at job interviews" and "dress warm when it's cold out" and all that jazz.

Your kidding right?  I lived and worked in the midwest for a long, long time and never got over seeing girls go to school without sox on, or boys not wearing hats.  And it was close to zero outside, with a wind.  Death by fashion is a common problem.

Hi Gracie FAISE, I agree with what you say. I believe that if you ask any other trans woman how they felt.

Did they really feel the gender they were born with, or did they lean more to or yearn to be the female gender, which they felt to be inside them since they were old enough to be aware of the difference in genders? I believe that after one starts HRT it will trigger many of the female traits which were always within one's self to begin with.

Love you hon, you have got it.

Cindy

Does it 'trigger' or 'induce' - I would think the second, but please reply.  Its not a minor difference.

I think it empowers, unleashes, liberates, actuates.

Call it what you will hon these traits were always there to come out and the estrogen helped them to do that. I didn't have to practice these traits, they just came to me.

Hypatia has the picture too; 

QuoteI think it empowers, unleashes, liberates, actuates.

Cindy

Quote from: Yvonne on May 11, 2008, 05:25:53 PM

Quote from: Gracie FAISE on May 11, 2008, 04:30:05 PM
I think the bottom line here is

Just be yourself. Like make up and skirts? Fine. Like beat up jeans and band tees? Fine. Whatever.

It's more complicated than skirts and band tees.  I'm like you.  I wear jeans, loose tank tops and never wear make up when I'm comfortably sitting at home.  At work or when I go out it's quite a different story.  The problem with "being yourself" is that some transsexual peeps equate that phrase with refusing to make a gender role change.  They want to act and look as their former selves but want all the benefits of their target gender ??? sorry but that's a load of tripe!

Bingo... happens a lot....

And like Grasie said, some girls just are how they are.

Nobody would ever imagine me male... even as a tomboy. Its not some excuse to maintain old habbits. i hardly had any? Its how _I_ feel good about myself, comfortable with my self, and happy with life.
i LIKE jeans. Sure, if wearing some mens jeans is me holding on to some pretransition self, fine... whatever. tell you what. it would be hard work to play combat sports in a skirt n heels.... (though i have done in leather and heels <-- dont ask) At my age, Day to day fasion for boys and girls doesnt differ too  hugely, atleast in the grungy punk/rock scene... sure theres differences, but it sticks fairly close.

My clothes do not make me.

My interests do not make me.

Was i corrected the right way at birth, i guess id still be into this stuff. but then, that would be ok, id be a natal female, i can do as i wish.


Somewhere the ->-bleeped-<-stapo is preparing to raid my house at 4am and arrest me for not being a perfect ->-bleeped-<-.

Sorry.
My way or the highway.
Ive said it before, ill say it again,
since when was transition about femininity or masculinity? no offense meant here, but are we crossdressers or actually the target gender? who gives a crap what you like? like it!

To transition, id hope your sense of self was greater than skin deep....
R >:D

QuoteMy clothes do not make me.

My interests do not make me.

But I agree Rachael 100%... excellent point.

I've had a hard time with the whole dressing thing...  since I don't get into skirts and dresses, at least yet... and I have some
male hobbies/interests... am I really trans?

But then I think how good my physical changes make me feel and how much I love to wear makeup and I put
any thoughts like that out of mind. My dysphoria has always been primarily my body and face and dressing female is
nice but just icing on the cake for me.

I think wearing of really feminine clothing may be a comfort level thing and a gradual change for me too.
It's really great that some of us feel comfortable wearing dresses and skirts, and maybe someday
I will get to the point where I feel that I can pull it off. I love a lot of things I see on women and in catalogs,
the colors and prints and how the right dress can really flatter your shape. I tried on a dress a few weeks ago
and I love how it made me feel and how it made my body look. But right now I just feel so out of place going
out in public... and a dress is just too much.

I think this comfort thing is also true of young GG's the first few times they wear a dress... especially the tomboys that
grow up in jeans and t-shirts. And I know were I live that young female athletes these days are often tomboys and often do
not wear dresses and skirts except on special occasions. Usually it's jeans and a tank top unless they are going out
and then it's jeans and some type of pretty top. And maybe an age thing too.... people in the US are much
more casual than say twenty or thirty years ago.

Amanda

Quote from: AlwaysAmanda on May 12, 2008, 10:24:20 AM
I've had a hard time with the whole dressing thing...  since I don't get into skirts and dresses, at least yet... and I have some
male hobbies/interests... am I really trans?

And that's just it. I've always shied away from justifying my transition through "proving" to myself and everyone else that I'm inherently female somehow. There's always the temptation to add up my "female" traits and interests, take gender tests, look at how comfortable I am in a female role, decide I relate better to women than men, etc. Others point to their exclusive sexual interest in men, lack of marriage and children, and so on. All to "prove" we're female, like we're solving an equation or something. Like if you can check off 51% or more "Female Traits," then you get to transition as a Real Transsexual.

But it's a huge risk to build self-knowledge upon those things for me, for as soon as that "evidence" seems threatened... *I* would be threatened. And you see it everywhere on here, with the various "real TS" arguments that get going sometimes, with everyone getting super defensive when their foundation of "evidence" becomes questioned.

But in the end, the one thing I DO know is that I had to transition. That's one truth that can't be changed or shaken, no matter what the explanation for it is. Whether I'm "female inside," or just experiencing some odd misdirected sexual impulse, it doesn't change the fact that I've always felt a compelling need to be female, and in *every* possible way, and at any cost.

I used to think I was doing this all "wrong" somehow, and should be adopting more femme mannerisms and dress and behaviours. I thought I was "holding back" or had some huge reservoir of femininity just waiting to be released once I "stopped hiding" and found my so-called "self-acceptance."

But I've realized that MY self-acceptance is in acknowledging that this is Who I Am, right now, this moment. I'm sure I'll evolve and change as I grow now, but that's a *natural* change I expect and want... as opposed to forcing myself into an image of what I (and others) think a woman SHOULD be.

So be a tomboy, be a femme, be whatever you want to be without regard to what it supposedly ads up to or looks like to anyone else. Just be YOU, whatever that may be, and make it work, as only you can, whatever it takes.

~Kate~

My mother was a tomboy. I blame her. She taught me to love math and the outdoors. I guess I just didn't have appropriate female role models to make me into the picture of modern feminity. :P She also taught me to bake and sew and garden, so maybe she wan't a complete failure. :laugh:

My gender isn't so much about my hobbies or style of dress as it is about how I relate to people, whether friends, colleagues, or random people on the street; and about who I aspire to be like -- why my profile picture is Lynn Hill and not Chris Sharma. (Maybe it should be Emmy Noether instead.)

QuoteBut in the end, the one thing I DO know is that I had to transition. That's one truth that can't be changed or shaken, no matter what the explanation for it is. Whether I'm "female inside," or just experiencing some odd misdirected sexual impulse, it doesn't change the fact that I've always felt a compelling need to be female, and in *every* possible way, and at any cost.

Bingo... that's the key isn't it? We have to do this regardless of cost?

QuoteMy mother was a tomboy. I blame her. She taught me to love math and the outdoors. I guess I just didn't have appropriate female role models to make me into the picture of modern feminity. Tongue She also taught me to bake and sew and garden, so maybe she wan't a complete failure. laugh

My gender isn't so much about my hobbies or style of dress as it is about how I relate to people, whether friends, colleagues, or random people on the street; and about who I aspire to be like -- why my profile picture is Lynn Hill and not Chris Sharma. (Maybe it should be Emmy Noether instead.)

My mom was also a tomboy as well as my sister, although both were/are very pretty. I never thought about that before but maybe
that does have an impact. But yes I think it is how you relate and interact with people. People have talked about having
a "female soul" and I'm starting to believe there is a such a thing and I have one. I realize now that from a very young age I
have held a female view point of all things in the world. And that helps me when I have a "am I trans" moment.

Amanda

Hi Kate
Hey hon all I got to say is, "You got it hon." Just be you, dress accordingly to the occasion, do some jaw wagging and have fun.  ;D As for hobbies, well the only boy ones I had were racing stock cars and snowmobiles and and flying bush planes. Well I think I'm am getting up in years to be doing the first two anymore, flying bush planes...... hmmmm possibly.

But I also loved drawing, story-writing and storytelling, sewing, knitting, and a whole host of other things I could do if I were bored. Just continue to be you hon, a lot of the traits they talk about will come naturally in time without any conscious effort on your part. It is after you graduate the transitioning pains that you will discover the pleasure of growing into being yourself.

Y'all have a wonderful day

Cindy 

Quote from: AlwaysAmanda on May 12, 2008, 03:23:23 PM

QuoteMy mother was a tomboy. I blame her....

My mom was also a tomboy as well as my sister, although both were/are very pretty. I never thought about that before but maybe
that does have an impact...

Interesting, as my mother wasn't particularly feminine either in the sense of wearing skirts or makeup or being glamorous. She was more "functional," focused on getting through the day's chores and raising us more than anything. Hey... oh no... don't tell me I've turned into my mother!

Plus I had no sisters (just one brother), and no female cousins close by when growing up. Aside from my mother's unglamorous collection, I never had access to much makeup or feminine clothing. It's true it never occurred to me back then to even want to, but I wonder if things woulda been different had more opportunity been there?

Ah well, water under the bridge...

~Kate~

QuoteInteresting, as my mother wasn't particularly feminine either in the sense of wearing skirts or makeup or being glamorous. She was more "functional," focused on getting through the day's chores and raising us more than anything. Hey... oh no... don't tell me I've turned into my mother!

Yea... you probably have... LOL  Mine was much the same... a functional utility woman.

QuoteAside from my mother's unglamorous collection, I never had access to much makeup or feminine clothing. It's true it never occurred to me back then to even want to, but I wonder if things woulda been different had more opportunity been there?

Nah... I had opportunity and access... and my sister even dressed me in dresses when I was young but it took
a long time to figure things out.

Amanda

Hi Kate as a kid I had access to what ever ones heart could desire both from my sisters wardrobe and my moms, my mom's somewhat more old fashion then my sisters but still very fashionable. My mom was a lady and when she and my dad use to go out every weekend, I use to watch her get dressed and I would marvel after she was done it was like she had been magically turned into a princess, by the fairy godmother. I was close to my mom and admired her a lot.

Anyway after everyone left the house it was my turn to be the lady of the house, It was never just a half attempt at just looking like a girl, it turned out to be a complete manifestation and reenactment of some character I had seen in some magazines or TV. The make up, even right down to wearing my mom's wig for further emphasis. As well I always enjoyed fantasising stuff, heck I still do. I don't know what I would do without my imagination, it would be pretty boring I suppose. I sometimes even play imaginary games with Wing Walker, ya I know I am quite child like for my age.

Anyway no, even after all the playacting and dressing up I did when I was younger, I am very conservative as to how I dress when just knocking about. But you know it all feels liberating to dress, even if it is in just everyday wear for around the house or for knocking about town shopping. The beauty shines from within.

Have yourself a wonderful day hon

Cindy     

What really stands out in this discussion is the influence our Mothers have or had on how we turn out and on our lives, Rachael your a very free spirit person, did your Mother influence you or maybe your are a strong person, our Mothers have a lot of influence.
My Mother was very domineering, she really was very disappointed she had no daughters only 4sons, I was the youngest, I sometimes wonder was that how I got my strong feelings from a very young age to become a girl, when I couldn'd take anymore and came out at 16, it was the first time in my life that my brothers and Dad saw my Mother really happy, thats why they encourage and supported my transition.
But I could never be a tomboy, because my Mother would never allow it, she didn't want me to be like my brothers, I was to be pretty and feminine, if I showed the remotest interest in wearing a pair of jeans she would dismiss it out of hand and say it was boyish, so I went along with things so that my transition would be a success, I'd say for about 6years till I was 23 I lived in a very pink world, going to occasions Mom would do my hair with curlers and made sure I wore the right dress. Tomboy?? no way, Mother didn't approve.
Now years have passed, my Mom has passed on, at 50 Im told Im a very feminine lady, I guess I get it from my Mother, if I wanted to be a tomboy, she probably say, I can just hear her now ''well you should have stayed a boy'' and I would never have wanted that, no Im just a woman.
p

Quote from: Rachael on May 12, 2008, 03:15:34 AMSure, if wearing some mens jeans is me holding on to some pretransition self, fine... whatever. no offense meant here, but are we crossdressers or actually the target gender?

Dude. In the men's clothes you like so much-- you're a crossdresser. Not that there's anything wrong with that. We have a crossdresser forum here at Susan's, go for it.  ;D
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lib.berkeley.edu%2FMRC%2Fnoir%2Fimages%2Fdietr-lg.jpg&hash=1b9f0cfdec0d68787d0ae6bdd57e32e430a8e65a)

Quote from: pretty pauline on May 12, 2008, 07:42:27 PM
What really stands out in this discussion is the influence our Mothers have or had on how we turn out and on our lives, Rachael your a very free spirit person, did your Mother influence you or maybe your are a strong person, our Mothers have a lot of influence.
My Mother was very domineering, she really was very disappointed she had no daughters only 4sons, I was the youngest, I sometimes wonder was that how I got my strong feelings from a very young age to become a girl, when I couldn'd take anymore and came out at 16, it was the first time in my life that my brothers and Dad saw my Mother really happy, thats why they encourage and supported my transition.
But I could never be a tomboy, because my Mother would never allow it, she didn't want me to be like my brothers, I was to be pretty and feminine, if I showed the remotest interest in wearing a pair of jeans she would dismiss it out of hand and say it was boyish, so I went along with things so that my transition would be a success, I'd say for about 6years till I was 23 I lived in a very pink world, going to occasions Mom would do my hair with curlers and made sure I wore the right dress. Tomboy?? no way, Mother didn't approve.
Now years have passed, my Mom has passed on, at 50 Im told Im a very feminine lady, I guess I get it from my Mother, if I wanted to be a tomboy, she probably say, I can just hear her now ''well you should have stayed a boy'' and I would never have wanted that, no Im just a woman.
p

You're mom is one in a million @ 3@
My mom is just conservative. She hates it if my shorts are too far above my knee or my midrift is exposed. :"x

As long as we're comparing... My family was ultra-Catholic, Mom is very traditional... Many of my earliest memories are of her clothes and makeup and things. When we were small, my sisters and I used to dress up in her crinolines, dresses, and high heels from her college days in the 1950s... who could have imagined those outmoded styles would become retro chic in the present day? I had four sisters and no brothers, and they all wore dresses, and of course I sneaked and wore their clothes, though I kept that very secret until now. They would have killed me if they knew.

I was always forced into very traditional masculinity. I was forced to show interest in football, even though I hated its guts. My parents insisted on my wearing a tie and jacket to church on Sundays when I was little. I have distressful memories of my Mom forcing my shirt collar closed against my throat to button it before adding the tie; I felt I was being strangled. Ever since then I cannot stand to have anything touching my throat. Nowadays I wear lots of low V-neck, décolleté dresses.

I grew up with an intense loathing of everything male that was forced upon me, and grew my hair long in high school even though my Dad hollered at me something awful, and the rest of the family treated me like I'd gone Communist or something. When I went away to college I grew my hair even longer. I rebelled against pretty much everything my parents valued. At the time I considered myself an androgyne; I would have given anything to transition, but thought it wasn't possible (there was no information available at my Jesuit college in those days, obviously)-- so I settled on androgyny as a compromise.

Now that I have the freedom to choose what I like, I can finally be happy. So I've permanently chucked all my former male stuff, good riddance! It was nothing but pain and misery for me. I'm finally living the life I always needed, dreams do come true.

QuoteI was always forced into very traditional masculinity. I was forced to show interest in football, even though I hated its guts. My parents insisted on my wearing a tie and jacket to church on Sundays when I was little. I have distressful memories of my Mom forcing my shirt collar closed against my throat to button it before adding the tie; I felt I was being strangled. Ever since then I cannot stand to have anything touching my throat. Nowadays I wear lots of low V-neck, décolleté dresses.

It's so funny how people will talk about things here that happened to me as a child that I have not thought
about since. And when I read it I think "Yea... right on the mark". OMG... "distressful memories" does not even begin
to describe it. I hated having to dress up as a child, until now I never thought it might be related to GID but it does make me
recall how much I wanted to be able to wear soft dresses instead of stiff shirts and jackets.

Quote
I grew up with an intense loathing of everything male that was forced upon me, and grew my hair long in high school even though my Dad hollered at me something awful, and the rest of the family treated me like I'd gone Communist or something. When I went away to college I grew my hair even longer.

Yep... I remember those days... not too fondly. The last hair cut I got for many years was when I was about 13. My dad
took me to his barber... he was trying to make me a man I guess. It had been after some really bad times in my life. He told
the barber to give me a buzz... this was when a buzz was NOT in style. I looked like a freak. I was too scared to do or say anything,
I just sat there as my long hair fell off. By that time my relationship with my mother had already been ruined and that was the last
straw for me and my dad. From that day on neither had any influence on my life. And THAT was the last time I allowed either of them
to force me to do anything. I know what they were trying to do, but like a lot of family members they had no clue about GID and
I guess neither did I.

Amanda

Quote from: AlwaysAmanda on May 13, 2008, 09:50:28 AM

QuoteI was always forced into very traditional masculinity. I was forced to show interest in football, even though I hated its guts. My parents insisted on my wearing a tie and jacket to church on Sundays when I was little. I have distressful memories of my Mom forcing my shirt collar closed against my throat to button it before adding the tie; I felt I was being strangled. Ever since then I cannot stand to have anything touching my throat. Nowadays I wear lots of low V-neck, décolleté dresses.

I hated having to dress up as a child, until now I never thought it might be related to GID but it does make me
recall how much I wanted to be able to wear soft dresses instead of stiff shirts and jackets...

Quote
I grew up with an intense loathing of everything male that was forced upon me, and grew my hair long in high school...

Yep... I remember those days... not too fondly. The last hair cut I got for many years was when I was about 13...

I swear I'm not TS, lol...

I didn't particularly mind doing most "guy" stuff as a child. Heck, I'm not even sure what "guy stuff" is anyway? I liked playing football with friends, throwing balls, climbing trees, riding my bike everywhere, etc. And I hated long hair. I tried it a few times, but it just made me feel ugly and stupid, a hippie "guy with long hair" and nothing more. Same with girl clothes: they always made me feel STUPID, a "guy in a dress." If I wasn't female, none of that mattered to me. Oh for sure, I was well aware from age 3 on that I should have been born a girl. But I didn't want to do "girly stuff" while male. The context was wrong, it just made me feel silly and WORSE since it'd just highlight everything I wasn't, and thought I could never be now. So I did what I could as a male, tried to be a pretty boy, tried to stay neat and attractive and well-dressed and all as a male. I always felt ugly and hideous though, because I KNEW I should have been female.

Which I think is the difference: my 24/7 soundtrack always said, "you need to have been BORN a girl." My urge isn't to do girly things, it's a need to have been born female. That's the fundamental problem I'm struggling to undo. And I lost that war before I had even begun. Everything, all the "girly" things from dolls to long hair to clothes to boys... were just pointless for me while living in the context of a male. Wearing panties made no sense to me as a male. Wearing a bra made no sense to me without breasts. Wearing makeup made no sense with a guy's face. Dolls made no sense if I'd never be a mother. All reminders of things I could never have, cruel teases of what should have been, but never would be.

Even now this "transition" thing is my last hope. An attempt to delude myself into believing I've *always* been female, that I was born this way. I'm trying to undo history and write the story that was meant to be told.

~Kate~

QuoteI swear I'm not TS, lol...

Well that's SO obvious from your post... what ARE you doing here?

LOL... NO... it just reminds us of how we all take different paths to get here. And
I think a lot of stuff we do as kids is maybe to prove to ourselves we are male. It's
part of denying who we are.

I have some really male hobbies and interests but that does not change how I feel inside. It makes me feel OK about
it when I read that many of you have male interests and hobbies. And having male hobbies does not change how I look
at the world. I AM female, I know my brain is female, I know I have female emotions and I know I always been
like that. There are SO many things about my thoughts, personality and emotions that scream female that it's
amazing that I ever passed as male... LOL... but I was born male, I was raised male and I've let myself
live a male life. So I guess I am a tomboy.

QuoteMy urge isn't to do girly things, it's a need to have been born female.

Absolutely! I'm not going to change things about ME just to fit a role... darn it... that's
what I've been doing my whole life. No... I'm just going to be me and if that makes me a tomboy so be it. Don't
get me wrong... I would LOVE to be able to pull off a frilly dress and heels... probably not much different
than a 16 Y/O GG that has been a tomboy all her life. But just like that 16 Y/O tomboy I think I would look
like the ugly duckling and feel out of place. I admire all the woman here that can do that... good for you. You are
all my idol :)

Amanda

My mom and I were close, I practically worshiped the ground she walked on and I believe she knew my big dark secret but never let on she did.  Back then in the 50's, 60's and 70's anything about transexuality and treatment of GID was scarce and very little was known about it. I did dress up whenever an opportunity arose but for the most part on the exterior I did pretty well the same things you did, Kate.

Quoteclimbing trees, riding my bike everywhere, etc. And I hated long hair. I tried it a few times, but it just made me feel ugly and stupid, a hippie "guy with long hair" and nothing more. Same with girl clothes: they always made me feel STUPID, a "guy in a dress." If I wasn't female, none of that mattered to me. Oh for sure, I was well aware from age 3 on that I should have been born a girl. But I didn't want to do "girly stuff" while male. The context was wrong, it just made me feel silly and WORSE since it'd just highlight everything I wasn't, and thought I could never be now. So I did what I could as a male, tried to be a pretty boy, tried to stay neat and attractive and well-dressed and all as a male. I always felt ugly and hideous though, because I KNEW I should have been female.

Heck ya, I loved biking for miles, spending a lot of time on the reservation, I liked the kids there, they were more fun then the other white folks' kids. I also loved spending the entire days on the lake which was a stone's throw from the homestead. I would borrow one of my dad's leaky row boats and go exploring the shore line or go to my favorite hiding place on this island across the lake from the homestead. I loved playing Huckleberry Finn, or Robinson Crusoe, sometimes I even played Jungle Queen, dressed in pilfered  clothes from my sister's closet.  I had my Collie with me whom I knew would be a great early warning system if anyone even came close to the island. Imagination is a lot of fun.

As for letting my hair grow, I started letting it grow when I was 12 years old, I liked it, I had really bushy, thick ringleted hair so you can imagine how unruly that can get after spending the day in the woods. By the time I was 14 it was mid-back, at 15 it was down to my butt (the hippie era). From the 12 to 15 were probably my most fun years running about with a tom boy, gum chewin, street fightin gal named Helen. Actually my childhood was a lot of fun in the sun and all that neat jazz, as far as I can remember. It's funny just how much one can remember about their childhood if you really wish to do so, Amanda.

Cindy

Quote from: AlwaysAmanda on May 12, 2008, 03:56:45 PM

QuoteInteresting, as my mother wasn't particularly feminine either in the sense of wearing skirts or makeup or being glamorous. She was more "functional," focused on getting through the day's chores and raising us more than anything. Hey... oh no... don't tell me I've turned into my mother!

Yea... you probably have... LOL  Mine was much the same... a functional utility woman.

QuoteAside from my mother's unglamorous collection, I never had access to much makeup or feminine clothing. It's true it never occurred to me back then to even want to, but I wonder if things woulda been different had more opportunity been there?

Nah... I had opportunity and access... and my sister even dressed me in dresses when I was young but it took
a long time to figure things out.

Amanda

I give this entire web community express permissions to end my existence for the good of the universe if I ever, one day, start turning into my mom. It would be kind of impossible to gain that much weight, and she's MUCH MORE old fashioned and childish though...

Of course, me posting about hers not nice... I'm just venting. I love her a lot, but WOW. I need to get out of my house and on with my LIFEEEEE~!!!!!!

Yeah i know what you mean...


if i ever end up wearing jodhpurs, wellies, a woolen sweater with a horse on, and have short hair,  or marry someone like my father... PLEASE....










shoot me
R >:D

Its okay. I have no idea what the hell those things are... :D

I loved my dad, he was intelligent, witty, funny and I could stay up for hours listening to his thoughts on many different types of topics. But then I loved my mom equaly, she was fun to be with, she was more like best friend then a mom, a big kid she was. I guess I took after her that way. And man could she tell some realy whoppin good stories. Actually I loved them both but I was my mom's suck.

Cindy

Quote from: Rachael on May 12, 2008, 03:15:34 AM

Quote from: Yvonne on May 11, 2008, 05:25:53 PM

Quote from: Gracie FAISE on May 11, 2008, 04:30:05 PM
I think the bottom line here is

Just be yourself. Like make up and skirts? Fine. Like beat up jeans and band tees? Fine. Whatever.

It's more complicated than skirts and band tees.  I'm like you.  I wear jeans, loose tank tops and never wear make up when I'm comfortably sitting at home.  At work or when I go out it's quite a different story.  The problem with "being yourself" is that some transsexual peeps equate that phrase with refusing to make a gender role change.  They want to act and look as their former selves but want all the benefits of their target gender ??? sorry but that's a load of tripe!

Bingo... happens a lot....

And like Grasie said, some girls just are how they are.

Nobody would ever imagine me male... even as a tomboy. Its not some excuse to maintain old habbits. i hardly had any? Its how _I_ feel good about myself, comfortable with my self, and happy with life.
i LIKE jeans. Sure, if wearing some mens jeans is me holding on to some pretransition self, fine... whatever. tell you what. it would be hard work to play combat sports in a skirt n heels.... (though i have done in leather and heels <-- dont ask) At my age, Day to day fasion for boys and girls doesnt differ too  hugely, atleast in the grungy punk/rock scene... sure theres differences, but it sticks fairly close.

My clothes do not make me.

My interests do not make me.

Was i corrected the right way at birth, i guess id still be into this stuff. but then, that would be ok, id be a natal female, i can do as i wish.


Somewhere the ->-bleeped-<-stapo is preparing to raid my house at 4am and arrest me for not being a perfect ->-bleeped-<-.

Sorry.
My way or the highway.
Ive said it before, ill say it again,
since when was transition about femininity or masculinity? no offense meant here, but are we crossdressers or actually the target gender? who gives a crap what you like? like it!

To transition, id hope your sense of self was greater than skin deep....
R >:D

Well I have to agree with a lot of them points, just a pity the internet wasn't around when I was going thru transition, I would have love my Mom to read some of them points, you don't have to be a girly girl to be a real girl, thats just nonsense, makes more sense to dress sensible, fashion is nice, but sometimes the weather can be unkind.
I remember about 20years ago, not long after my surgery, my uncle died so my Mom Dad and my 3brothers went to the funeral, it was a very cold day, my Dad and 3brothers had their heavy overcoats, but even that day I had to dress according to what my Mom called appropriate for a girl, I wore a black dress just above the knee with a short sleeve pink jacket, my hands where busy just keeping my dress from tossing up in the wind, I felt my brothers giggle and I was mortified,typical boys, we had a long walk to the grave and my heels where killing me, just a bad day, but looking back now, that wasn't practical clothes that day, anyway it had a good ending and I had the last laugh.
Just as we where leaving the graveside, it started to rain, a car pulled up, some guy friend of my Dads, he says to my Dad, ''can I give the 2ladies a ride'' myself and Mom climbed into the car and my Dad and brothers where left to get a good sog in the rain lol it was just so nice to get into that warm car, that guy was a real gentleman, times like that its nice being a girl, but my Mom was definitely wrong about tomboys, sometimes I wished my Mom would have let me wear pants more often, theres more to being a girl than just being pink and frilly.
p

If a woman is swaggering around and acting very aggressively then I agree that I personally find this unattractive. But then I also find this kind of behaviour unattractive in men  so not sure that says much.  I don't have a problem with women with short hair that were pants and behave in a manner that's less stereotypical.

I don't dress or act 'like a man' but then I don't dress or act ultra 'femininely' either, unless I go to a wedding or something in which case I'll make an effort and dress up. I would be offended if someone told me I should dress like that as I've better things to do with my time and I find jeans and t-shirt more practical. I'm quite secure in the fact that I'm a woman, and I don't need to go to either extreme to prove it.

Man... The more I think about it, I'm still a tomboy, but every single relationship I've been in, ever, has had me coming off as a girl SO MUCH.

I recently met someone like me the same age, and her girlfriend is completely accepting, and likes the relationship...

It gives me SOME hope I guess...

Congrats on your two newly found friends, Deviousxen. I pray that you all become good friends.

I already had four lady friends, one had left her three kids in my care shortly after I started full time.

My AA sponsor, she was a deacon in the Catholic Church. She was truly a wonderful, kind, and caring lady and helped me a lot.

Ironically, not expecting any help from a religious person, I went to see this Anglican minister who was also female.  She was  the first person I ever sat with to tell her about me and my big, dark, forbidden secret. This was the beginning of my long walk into transitioning.

There was a drop-in service for mental health consumers (consumers is such a cold word but that's governmentese for you) in my town and the woman who was the peer support worker there took well to me and we became friends at the drop-in and afterwards.

Eventually I followed the woman at the drop-in and her job fell to me.  The program manager there was another woman with whom I cultivated a friendship that is there to this day.  It was on her watch that I had my greatest growth as a social worker and as a woman.

Of course Wing Walker started out as my friend in a certain chat room and look at what happened there.

These five ladies were probably the best and most valuable assets that I could ever have bestowed upon. They stayed with me and they were there for me after I came out full time.

Cindy




 

Well... I haven't met his girlfriend actually... So one person. But thats certainly good enough anyway. Too bad they live in VA...


Why can't we just teleport? What the crap?

Its not just the friend thing, its also cause this ones in the same boat as me, and it makes me feel less crazy with anything I'd do...

Hi Deviousxen hon

Sorry to hear about your friends not being from the same area as you are. Well it only takes one confidant who is a trusting soul to share with and I certainly do pray that this confidant will show herself to you soon, possibly the one you say is in the same situation as you are.

Cindy 

I thought just like you when I started out. I didn't want to lose the person I was simply because I had my penis removed. I loved all types of sports, also hiking, camping, working on cars. I didn't dress up very much, and when I did it was usually something subtle, womens jeans and a gender neutral top. I loved wearing panties, but not so much bras. But everytime I stepped in the shower, I knew that thing between my legs didn't belong there. I hated looking at it, having that part of my body disgusted me. I would tuck it even when I was in the shower. The few times I made love to a woman, I felt very jealous of her. I wanted to be her, I wanted to feel what she was feeling. I wantedto have her parts, but I was scared I lose the other parts of my life that I enjoyed so much. I wanted to be the same person just with breasts and a vagina.

I felt subtle changes when I started hormones, mainly my emotions took off. I enjoyed the little things of life so much more with the hormones. I laughed more, smiled more, cried more. My interests remained the same. But my body began changing. My skin became softer. My breasts began to grow, not much, but enough to know they were there. My hair became fuller and my butt and hips filled out. I lost alot of my strength and stamina in sports. I became softer and weaker.

Through the two years on HRT and the 1 and a half year of RLT, I felt I stayed the same person at my core with softening around the edges which I fully welcomed.

The biggest change came about six months after my SRS. I happiest moment of my life to date, was when I looked down between my legs in that hospital bed three days after my surgery and saw that it was not there, even though my vagina looked like ground beef. But at around the six month mark, I finally accepted myself as a full woman. I started enjoying wearing sexy clothes, whether it be a cute bra and panty set, or a nice little cocktail dress. I started noticing being noticed by men, and I liked it. It reinforced my womanhood. Slowly, I took better care with my make-up and hair, and what I wear. Eventhough, I never was attracted to men before the surgery, I thought I was going to be one of those cool tomboy-type lesbians, I found myself noticing and wanting men more and more, not just to admire me, but to have me physically.

I still like playing sports and watching football and basketball on TV, I am much more of a regular girl than I ever thought I would be. I seem to go back and forth between the jean wearing tomboy and the mini-skirt wearing chick. That's is what so great about becoming a woman, we can be whatever we what whenever we want.

PS - The sex is incredible. Pussies rule.

I always feared that I wasn't feminine enough to pass and that brought a lot of doubts if I was truly TS or not, but then I learned not to care anymore.  I will always have need to be known as Lauren, even though as a child I thought I was "the dude"  It took me a long time before I realized that a change like this is actually possible although it isn't really rational.  overrationalizing is one of my biggest problems. 

Quote from: justine40 on June 11, 2009, 01:43:01 AM
That's is what so great about becoming a woman, we can be whatever we what whenever we want.

PS - The sex is incredible. Pussies rule.

I absolutely agree, girls have the better deal in the bedroom, very well put, when I look in the mirror Im so glad, I love being a woman.
p

i'm like that now, one year on hormones. i feel like a woman( i guess ) but i still to go fishing,hiking and the sorts, i just do it with a new sense of fashion. you can too!!!

Well if hormones (which im beginning sooon!) don't change me to much, Il be one of the fellow tomboys, no need to worry about it, its a great trait, how you act is simply who you are, gender doesn't define whats fun and comfortable to you. Im a gamer girl and proud of it haha

Alot of really good examples here everyone, made me smile hehe

Quote from: Johnnie on April 29, 2008, 05:28:52 PM
I have no doubt that I am m2f, and I'm seriously thinking about/planning for transition.

I know that hormones change people in unpredictable ways, but here's the thing: I want to look like a girl, and i want to live a woman's life, but I'm not that interested in being GIRLY. I'm sure there will be times I'll want to get all dolled up, but most of the time I'll probably wear jeans, a t-shirt and sneakers. I'm very into sports, politics, video games, and films... I don't want any of that to change.. I just want to do it all as a woman.

To be a bit childish.. I want to still be ME after transition, just me with boobs and no weiner :)

Can anyone else relate? Or will hormones rewire me so much that I'll end up preferring shoe shopping to watching my Seahawks on NFL Sunday Ticket? :)

If you wanted to give your entire personality an overhaul, I would submit that there is something wrong with your mental health, and I would advise counseling instead of a sex-change. I will be honest with you: hormones change your brain a little bit. You have a right to feel concerned about this.

The therapy I suggest is this: watch the girls you hang out with, and try to note the things that make them all different and unique. You know some who like to drink beer. You know some who enjoy watching football. Some of them are into anime and manga. You know a few artists and maybe one accountant. If you really pay close attention, you will find that very few of them are obsessed with shopping for shoes.

Fashion tip: jeans make you look younger. You will discover this, and you will come to take pride in it.

Hi Johnnie
There are more people thinking like you than you believe.
I'm one of thes and if you want we can talk.

Sandra Ts

Gender should have nothing to do with what types of sports a person likes or the car you drive. Many ladies I know are into NFL, NASCAR, fishing, hunting, camping and drive SUVs. If you were a professional bull rider and transgender that my be different. Even then, look at the bright side. You wouldn't have to worry about busting your testicles. LOL. I was a member of Future Farmers of America when younger. I didn't wear a skirt back then but I would have if it had been allowed. I know! We'll change the term. Not a "Tomboy", a "Tinaboy". There, problem solved.

My climbing partner told me I look like a tomboy in climbing mode (not-very-boyish but nevertheless men's shirt, loose fitting pants, beat up trail shoes for the approach, ponytail, helmet, rope in a backpack coil, harness with a some gear hanging off).

He wasn't sure if that was a compliment or an insult.

He needn't have worried. :D

I wish I could present female when climbing -- but it's not something where you can think about how you look while you're doing it. I'll just look how I look. When I need a bra, I guess that'll be the day. I can be patient.

Oh, yes, to reiterate: You bet I'm a tomboy.

I'm really girly, I hate sports, always have. Guns, cars, tools leave me cold, always have. I was always an alien in guyland. You're making me think hard to come up with something so I won't be an alien in this thread too...

OK, how about this: I drink beer. In America beer is gendered masculine, isn't it? For me, it's just that a cold one goes down so well on a hot day. When it isn't summer, the idea doesn't occur to me, but when the temperature rises above 80 ºF (27 ºC), I get this craving. I actually prefer wine, year-round. But if white wines are the ones gendered feminine, and I only drink red, where on the gender continuum does that place me? Hell if I know; this is silly. In Germany, women drink beer a lot, without it being gendered masculine, it's just gendered German.

Bitch magazine had an article titled "Brewed Awakening" about how in America coffee is gendered masculine while tea is gendered feminine. But actually, I think that is damned silly, it's just artificially manufactured by advertising, and I like both coffee and tea about equally well.

Only two things bound to soothe my soul:
Cold beer and remote control.
--Indigo Girls

I'm not a tomboy, I swarz it.  I'm as girly girl as it gets!




























8)

cuz babes are totally into guns and motorcycles and boxing and fighting and jets and skydiving and being complete adrenaline junkies even at great detriment to ones own health and so confrontational they usually get banned from a forum a min of 5 times!

I'm not even sure what your trying to say HR.  I lived in rural Iowa for a long time, and yes women for the most part dress to work, but they do have their Sunday going to meeting clothes, and stuff they could wear to a wedding too.  Most of the girls I know in SF have fancy stuff, but they also have fleece for the coast, and clothing much like the Iowa girl would wear on her farm to go camping in.

And though it often gets lost in the everybody's equal nonsense - ALL THE WOMEN in N.Dakota, Montana, S.Dakota and Wyoming are not even close to half the women in the Greater NYC or Metro LA area.  Less that 20% I bet.  So its not like there is any force of numbers on their side. We often tend to forget that one group represents millions and millions more persons than the other.

And, as a historian, I can assure you all this goes way, way, way back - long before advertising was around.

*used in general

I live in what easily may well be the anti-fashion capitol of the world. I see punks with the Black and Decker facial jewelry look, people dressed up in brighter colors than a traffic cone, old people dressing too young, young people (girls in particular) dressing way, way too old, tourists who don't know better in shorts and t-shirts freezing their ass off waiting for the cable car to take them down to Fisherman's Wharf, where its going to be even colder - and just about everything in between.

Most of the time it does not matter, its all just part of the passing parade, and if they are doing it to amuse me, well, they are doing a damn good job.  But there is, at some points, time where one ought to think about what's appropriate, or, at least understand the ramifications of not doing so.

Like when we were out on Warp Tour and in Kansas and Ohio, and LaborTemps or some such company sent us out guys to load the trucks and they were wearing sandals.  (really, I'm not kidding) - and it's like "OK, you people go stand over there and smoke cigarettes and play with your water bottles cause you sure as hell are not going to load band equipment on a 53 foot trailer dressed like that."

Or, perhaps my favorite, I was at the super trendy club here in SF called Ten15, and it has a dress code.  And when the girl was loudly complaining when she was not let in "because this is just who I am" the doorman looked at her and said, "Well, we don't let in people dressed like that, and that's just who we are."

A friend of mine I think said it best when he told me that "all of life is a costume party, you just have to know who is writing the invitation."

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Post Merge: July 10, 2009, 11:39:25 AM

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*used generaly

I can muck out a stable and still clean up good for a night of clubbing.  And I know the top you were wearing.  You just plain smoking hawt.  Ok I am a little prejudges.

When one looks down their noses, it is because they are afraid to look in the mirror.

IMHO,
Janet

Quote from: heatherrose on July 10, 2009, 12:09:41 PM

What you can't see is
that I am wearing a, kick ass, long denim skirt and brown suede high heel
boots.

Because guys totally rip their attention away from the chest and face to look at them stylin cowgirl skirts and overly fancy heels that don't match the denim:-p

It takes everyone a while to figure out how to dress, in fact it takes most teenagers a good 10 years to make up their mind: the lucky ones.

Quote from: heatherrose on July 10, 2009, 01:37:32 PM

Go back to your on line business, I couldn't care less what you think.

Oh noez.  I are wounded to the core!

Have fun chillin with those denims:-p

I guess I am still not sure what the big deal is here.  I still enjoy working on my truck.  I have modded the crap out of it.  Few mechanics have ever touched it.  And I love to see the heads turn when people see it.  It sounds awesome too.  A real testosterone producing machine.  Although I am not crazy about getting grease under my fingernails, at the risk of sounding vain, I think I clean up pretty good.  Does it make me feel like less of a girl?  You gotta be kidding!

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

Kk, Ms Denim.  Everyone is entitled to their beliefs, but if you're wanting to continue your bickering at me then do it over PM so the rest of the forum isn't exposed to our mature, diplomatic compliments towards one another.  Oh yeah and check out grammar school again, either that or figure out how double negatives work in a sentence :laugh:

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Post Merge: July 10, 2009, 12:48:44 PM

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Quote from: Kristi on July 10, 2009, 01:47:10 PM
I guess I am still not sure what the big deal is here.  I still enjoy working on my truck.  I have modded the crap out of it.  Few mechanics have ever touched it.  And I love to see the heads turn when people see it.  It sounds awesome too.  A real testosterone producing machine.  Although I am not crazy about getting grease under my fingernails, at the risk of sounding vain, I think I clean up pretty good.  Does it make me feel like less of a girl?  You gotta be kidding!

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

Motorcycles>>>trucks.

out to lunch.