Quote from: Lisbeth on July 27, 2007, 01:14:49 PM

Quote from: Nero on July 27, 2007, 01:05:31 PM
Doctors normally don't have 'personal experience' with the conditions they study, yet they know more than their patients.
And guess what! They speak from SURPRISE! observations and theories.

Or prejudice.  Oh, wait!  That's sometimes another word for "theories."

Possibly.  Either way, they still have a better grasp of things than the patient.

Posted on: July 27, 2007, 01:21:10 PM

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Quote from: Kate on July 27, 2007, 01:18:57 PM

Quote from: Nero on July 27, 2007, 01:12:14 PM
And as far as the reliability of 'personal experience' - a psychiatric hallucegenic patient will tell you all day that what they are seeing is real, but it doesn't mean it is. Only in their mind.

But even you said that the sexual and emotional effects of HRT are real...

Then say that those of us who claim to have experienced these effects are just experiencing a placebo effect...

Do you see why I'm getting lost?

~Kate~

Being horny or emotional does not make up the difference between man and woman. There are a lot of over-sexed women and men who cry at the drop of a hat.

I hear you mewing kitty. I'm getting that ladder. I just got distracted for a bit.

these two are characteristics common to the genders. enduced by hormones to some extent. are we saying women cant get horny and men cant be emotional?

R

Hormones...

First of all, since most TS prior to HRT suffer deep psychological disturbance that have a definitite impact on brain chemicals, there's a good change that's its impossible to know the exact effect HRT has had on them since the effect will be intertwined with the lifting of most or all of the psychologic disturbance, depression or anxiety.

Second, women at menopause have a very low level of E and are still women, though the low E has been proven to have some impacts on the brain, mostly in cognitive functions.

Are Hypoganadal men less men, feel less like men, because their T levels are low?

Thirdly, a high level of E induces a high libido in women, the biological reason for that is simple, inducing them to mate when they are fertile.

If a high E level introduces changes in the brain (seemingly so) are those change discernable externally or simply visible through MRI, same thing with T. Does the person's base personality devellopped over X year override any changes that occur?

im sortof tempted to agree. we dont make the best test cases due to our mental turmoils. plus we exadurate, nature of the beast.

So far, there are two ladies posting in this thread that I can't for the life of me figure why they're debating this with me. Because this issue has no bearing on them whatsoever. They must be coming to the defence of other ladies for whom this is an issue.

Seriously, these two ladies trip my detector bigtime. Every post of their's is like a car alarm going off -
Woo woo wooo, eek, eek, eek, nt, nt nt STEP AWAY FROM THE FEMALE!  STEP AWAY FROM THE FEMALE!

For it to trip out like that on me, there's no way they haven't always been female. From birth. No way in hades they didn't think, feel, and act like women before HRT (whether they know it or not)
Estrogen does not trip my detector. And I've had ftms who've been on T for years trip my detector with that same message STEP AWAY FROM THE FEMALE!  STEP AWAY FROM THE FEMALE!
If HRT really does all you people claim, why are there testosterone oozing ftms tripping my freakin detector?!? And what of the estrogen drenched mtfs who think and behave like Tony Soprano?!?

exactly. Hrt does what we WANT it to do, largely the effects are psycosematic. and what we imagine as changes, and new feelings, have been there all along... Hormone replacement therapy is a treatment in colaboration with therapy, and personal descovery. We may attribute more to it than is physically due.

I for one am glad i started. my body is finally looking good, and like MINE. my mind, largely remains the same, while more emotionally sensative and perceptive. im the same person, ive not magically become some random girly girl. im still Rach, i still airsoft, i still want to join the police, i still long for a husband, kids and a happy life.
If anything HRT has clarified my mind, not changed it.

Here's the main idea I am hearing from you, which I disagree with:

Hormones have no absolutely no effect other than making a person more emotional/sexual.  FALSE They DO affect you more than these 2 effects.  You could only know this if you experienced HRT yourself.

Now, here's some ideas I do agree with:
* The underlying thought processes of the identified gender are always there regardless of which hormones are in a person.  TRUE
* We are our still gender regardless of our hormones.  TRUE
* Our behaviors do not make us male or female, it's how we think that does.  TRUE

Quote from: Rachael on July 27, 2007, 01:19:08 PM

Quote from: Lisbeth on July 27, 2007, 01:14:49 PM
Or prejudice.  Oh, wait!  That's sometimes another word for "theories."

so is exactly what your doing right now... prejudicince doctors simply on personal views...
pot calling mr kettle?

LOL!  No.  "Theory" is a fancy word for "I think this is how it works."  "Observation" is informal collection of non-quantitative information.  When you start talking about "clinical studies" then you finally get to real facts.

Posted on: July 27, 2007, 02:59:12 PM

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Quote from: Nero on July 27, 2007, 01:24:29 PM
Possibly.  Either way, they still have a better grasp of things than the patient.

I think that's an unwarrented conclusion.  The doctor might or might not.  Any number of patients have discovered that over the years.

Posted on: July 27, 2007, 03:01:20 PM

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Quote from: Melissa on July 27, 2007, 02:57:09 PM
Hormones have no absolutely no effect other than making a person more emotional/sexual.  FALSE They DO affect you more than these 2 effects.  You could only know this if you experienced HRT yourself.

Or if you had read the clinical studies that have been done over the years.  Estrogen is positively correlated with depression.  Testosterone is positively correlated with anger.  The most significant one that was done last year in the Netherlands and Germany using NMRI shows that the macroscopic structure of the brain is altered by HRT.

theory usually has evidence. prejudice, (ie this) doesnt

Quote from: Rachael on July 27, 2007, 03:11:20 PM
theory usually has evidence. prejudice, (ie this) doesnt

Unh hunh.  You're thinking physics and chemistry.  Doesn't hold for psychology.

empirical evidence no, case evidence, yes.

Quote from: Melissa on July 27, 2007, 02:57:09 PM
Here's the main idea I am hearing from you, which I disagree with:

Hormones have no absolutely no effect other than making a person more emotional/sexual.  FALSE They DO affect you more than these 2 effects.  You could only know this if you experienced HRT yourself.

As I stated earlier, a hallucigenic mental patient will insist that what they are seeing is real, that doesn't make it so.
Absolutely no need for the doctor to have 'experienced' hallucinations to know his patient's seeing things that aren't there.

it depends on other factors too, but that helps


R

Quote from: Nero on July 27, 2007, 03:20:33 PM

Quote from: Melissa on July 27, 2007, 02:57:09 PM
Here's the main idea I am hearing from you, which I disagree with:

Hormones have no absolutely no effect other than making a person more emotional/sexual.  FALSE They DO affect you more than these 2 effects.  You could only know this if you experienced HRT yourself.

As I stated earlier, a hallucigenic mental patient will insist that what they are seeing is real, that doesn't make it so.
Absolutely no need for the doctor to have 'experienced' hallucinations to know his patient's seeing things that aren't there.

Would you tell your doctor his diagnosis is wrong because he never 'experienced' your condition firsthand?

Posted on: July 27, 2007, 03:28:48 PM

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Quote from: Nero on July 27, 2007, 02:46:41 PM
So far, there are two ladies posting in this thread that I can't for the life of me figure why they're debating this with me. Because this issue has no bearing on them whatsoever. They must be coming to the defence of other ladies for whom this is an issue.

Seriously, these two ladies trip my detector bigtime. Every post of their's is like a car alarm going off -
Woo woo wooo, eek, eek, eek, nt, nt nt STEP AWAY FROM THE FEMALE!  STEP AWAY FROM THE FEMALE!

For it to trip out like that on me, there's no way they haven't always been female. From birth. No way in hades they didn't think, feel, and act like women before HRT (whether they know it or not)
Estrogen does not trip my detector. And I've had ftms who've been on T for years trip my detector with that same message STEP AWAY FROM THE FEMALE!  STEP AWAY FROM THE FEMALE!
If HRT really does all you people claim, why are there testosterone oozing ftms tripping my freakin detector?!? And what of the estrogen drenched mtfs who think and behave like Tony Soprano?!?

Hmmm Interesting. Since posting this, I notice there have been no further posts or arguments from the ladies in question.
Hiding in red-faced embarrassment are we?
Alright, you willowy, wispy, wood sprite and you super dignified, highly sensitive, stately mare - come out, come out, wherever you are!!

Quote from: Nero on July 27, 2007, 03:28:48 PM
Would you tell your doctor his diagnosis is wrong because he never 'experienced' your condition firsthand?

Maybe I've missed the point... and I'm over reacting. But I'm sorry, but I would like a clear answer on this...

Are you saying that you're a qualified medical professional, with the appropriate education and experience, to make the sweeping, judgmental, and hurtful statements you've made across the board over the past weeks?

I know... I know I'm not very feminine. I've had a couple guy friends, and not many female ones. I was geeky, aggressive, analytical, argumentative, as a young teen. I played video games, and gorged on science books and magazines. I'm majoring in engineering, after all. My mom always told me how insensitive and cold I am, how I wasn't noticeably feminine as a child.

I don't know how my brain is. I don't know if its feminine or masculine. Or if hormones have helped or changed it. And you know...? That hurts. It hurts to not be sure if I'm really a "woman", by yours, or anyone else's standards, let alone my own. I don't know if I've just convinced myself, or I have a mental condition, or who knows, maybe at some mental level I get some kind of fetishistic satisfaction, and deep down, I'm not really female where it counts.

All I do know, is that all I've ever wanted was a happy, reasonably normal life, and the only way I can do that is by transitioning, and that while hormones have not been a magic pill, they've liberated and changed me in more ways than I can count. Maybe I haven't 'really' been a girl till now, or will never be, but it's better than the alternative.

So I regret if I've intruded on a rational, civil debate with an emotional outburst, but it's just been hard reading through a lot of posts like these days. I suppose I should have just looked away, but I just had to see what people had to say.

~k

Quote from: Kaitlyn on July 27, 2007, 03:52:53 PM

Quote from: Nero on July 27, 2007, 03:28:48 PM
Would you tell your doctor his diagnosis is wrong because he never 'experienced' your condition firsthand?

Maybe I've missed the point... and I'm over reacting. But I'm sorry, but I would like a clear answer on this...

Are you saying that you're a qualified medical professional, with the appropriate education and experience, to make the sweeping, judgmental, and hurtful statements you've made across the board over the past weeks?

I know... I know I'm not very feminine. I've had a couple guy friends, and not many female ones. I was geeky, aggressive, analytical, argumentative, as a young teen. I played video games, and gorged on science books and magazines. I'm majoring in engineering, after all. My mom always told me how insensitive and cold I am, how I wasn't noticeably feminine as a child.

I don't know how my brain is. I don't know if its feminine or masculine. Or if hormones have helped or changed it. And you know...? That hurts. It hurts to not be sure if I'm really a "woman", by yours, or anyone else's standards, let alone my own. I don't know if I've just convinced myself, or I have a mental condition, or who knows, maybe at some mental level I get some kind of fetishistic satisfaction, and deep down, I'm not really female where it counts.

All I do know, is that all I've ever wanted was a happy, reasonably normal life, and the only way I can do that is by transitioning, and that while hormones have not been a magic pill, they've liberated and changed me in more ways than I can count. Maybe I haven't 'really' been a girl till now, or will never be, but it's better than the alternative.

So I regret if I've intruded on a rational, civil debate with an emotional outburst, but it's just been hard reading through a lot of posts like these days. I suppose I should have just looked away, but I just had to see what people had to say.

~k

Whoa Whoa Whoa  You got me all wrong, lady. I'm no doctor, I just play one on TV That was just an analogy,
that 'personal experience' doesn't amount to a hill of beans in the medical field. Should men be barred from practicing gynecology? After all they have no 'personal experience'.

I do study every condition I or a someone I know has to the fullest. Reading all the literature, interrogating countless people with the same condition or similar. I eat, drink, and sleep that condition until I know all the ins and outs.
I also study psychiatry as a pasttime.

I don't recall ever debating you on any topic, let alone the past few weeks. I apologize if I've inadvertently said something that upset you.

Posted on: July 27, 2007, 04:20:13 PM

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Still no wood sprite or stately mare.
You girls rollicking together in some posey infested field or some such?
The wispy wood sprite reclining on a mushroom, trading intimacies with the butterflies, the dignified mare shaking off her bridle, taking this rare opportunity to race the wind, wild and free.

I'm good at math & chemistry.  I have to be.  My job involves both.  I'm as well competitive, not very emotional & I'm into Judo.  My world has just ended.  I'm not a woman! 

Quote from: Melissa on July 27, 2007, 02:57:09 PM

Quote from: Nero on July 27, 2007, 03:45:01 PM
Hmmm Interesting. Since posting this, I notice there have been no further posts or arguments from the ladies in question.
Hiding in red-faced embarrassment are we?
Alright, you willowy, wispy, wood sprite and you super dignified, highly sensitive, stately mare - come out, come out, wherever you are!!

Oh, I see that missed that one because you split the topic at the same time and I was also posting at that time.  I'll address it now.

Quote from: Nero on July 27, 2007, 02:46:41 PM
So far, there are two ladies posting in this thread that I can't for the life of me figure why they're debating this with me. Because this issue has no bearing on them whatsoever. They must be coming to the defence of other ladies for whom this is an issue.

Seriously, these two ladies trip my detector bigtime. Every post of their's is like a car alarm going off -
Woo woo wooo, eek, eek, eek, nt, nt nt STEP AWAY FROM THE FEMALE!  STEP AWAY FROM THE FEMALE!

For it to trip out like that on me, there's no way they haven't always been female. From birth. No way in hades they didn't think, feel, and act like women before HRT (whether they know it or not)
Estrogen does not trip my detector. And I've had ftms who've been on T for years trip my detector with that same message STEP AWAY FROM THE FEMALE!  STEP AWAY FROM THE FEMALE!
If HRT really does all you people claim, why are there testosterone oozing ftms tripping my freakin detector?!? And what of the estrogen drenched mtfs who think and behave like Tony Soprano?!?

*smile*  You make some good points here (at last).  I think we have been both saying the same thing, but miscommunicating.  I agree that the basic underlying thought patterns are very untouched by estrogen.  However, what I didn't agree with is how you have diminished the mental effects of HRT when you have never experienced them yourself.  I did not know how extensive the mental changes were myself until I started it.  What I think happens is that estrogen only amplifies preexisting mental attributes of the brain.  If there is nothing female in the first place, it won't do much.  If a brain is more female, the change will go much further.

I *know* I don't act male.  I know that I never did act completely male.  In fact, when I came out of denial, I was almost instantly able to drop many of the "male" behaviors because they were artificial.  However, I experienced other subtle changes like my visual memory increased, the amount of talking I did increased (if you look at a history of my posts that I haven't deleted, you'll see), my speech patterns changed, my empathy increased, and yes, depression and emotions were also amplified.  Sexuality went down and then eventually came back up again.  These changes didn't occur immediately, but they did subtly slipped in.

Oddly enough, my parents would swear that I have never acted feminine in my life.

Damn! Tried to quote you and hit the modify button. I'm sorry.

Quote from: Melissa on July 27, 2007, 05:53:25 PM

Quote from: Nero on July 27, 2007, 03:45:01 PM

Quote from: Nero on July 27, 2007, 03:20:33 PM

Quote from: Melissa on July 27, 2007, 02:57:09 PM
Here's the main idea I am hearing from you, which I disagree with:

Hormones have no absolutely no effect other than making a person more emotional/sexual.  FALSE They DO affect you more than these 2 effects.  You could only know this if you experienced HRT yourself.

As I stated earlier, a hallucigenic mental patient will insist that what they are seeing is real, that doesn't make it so.
Absolutely no need for the doctor to have 'experienced' hallucinations to know his patient's seeing things that aren't there.

Would you tell your doctor his diagnosis is wrong because he never 'experienced' your condition firsthand?

I don't like you telling me that you know me and what goes on inside my head better than I know myself.  What credentials do you have?

Uh...when did I say that? I hope you didn't think I was calling you mental or something. I was debating the topic, not you.

Quote from: Nero on July 27, 2007, 06:27:45 PM

Quote from: Melissa on July 27, 2007, 05:53:25 PM
I don't like you telling me that you know me and what goes on inside my head better than I know myself.  What credentials do you have?

Uh...when did I say that?

Hmm, let's review, shall we?  I started off describing *my* personal experience with hormones.  Then:

Quote from: Nero on July 27, 2007, 01:05:31 PM

Quote from: Melissa on July 27, 2007, 12:24:14 PM
Well, I speak from personal experience.  You speak from you observations and theories.

Doctors normally don't have 'personal experience' with the conditions they study, yet they know more than their patients.
And guess what! They speak from SURPRISE! observations and theories.

Quote from: Nero on July 27, 2007, 01:12:14 PM
And as far as the reliability of 'personal experience' - a psychiatric hallucigenic patient will tell you all day that what they are seeing is real, but it doesn't mean it is. Only in their mind.

Quote from: Nero on July 27, 2007, 03:20:33 PM
As I stated earlier, a hallucigenic mental patient will insist that what they are seeing is real, that doesn't make it so.
Absolutely no need for the doctor to have 'experienced' hallucinations to know his patient's seeing things that aren't there.

At this point, you have strongly implied that I hallucinated and was seeing things that were not there.


In conclusion:

Quote from: Nero on July 27, 2007, 04:57:14 PMI'm no doctor, I just play one on TV

Since you are not a doctor (and I'm certainly not one of your "patients"), you have absolutely no credibility--especially regarding HRT--in the subject matter and so it's just your very biased "opinion" that my personal experience is wrong, which based on nothing but you own guesses about me.