what does it mean to you? A difficult concept maybe. Many trans women are without the trappings that usually define 'woman', so what does it mean to you? Being female. In scientific terms this implies the ability to give birth, but is obviously more than that. What is the essence of woman - her beauty, her breasts, her genitals? I had all these and was not a woman, however much I tried to be. So, what is it?
It is the transition from repression to self-acceptance. For some, beauty, breasts and genitalia may play a part in that. For some, hormones might. For some it is just a mindset.
I do not know what it is like to be female in a cis sense, so I do not know if any vital things are truly missing. I am as female as I feel at any given time. Sometimes I feel like I am floating across the floor and sometimes I feel like a quarterback in a dress. For me it is an ongoing process.
It just is. It comes from within. My dysphoria lies not with my gender, but with my birth sex (Gender, IMO, is BS).
For me, being a woman is but a state of mind
This is a pretty philosophical question I think, as is its reciprocal, so I suspect a lot of people have differing views.
My personal view is that a woman is simply someone who views themselves as female, regardless of what their body looks like, or their genitals, or their attractiveness. It doesn't matter if they're masculine or feminine, gay/straight or bi/pan/asexual, or whether they fit into or out of stereotyped gender roles. The ability to give birth doesn't define a woman, for example in the case of Thomas Beatie who gave birth as a trans man. At the same time around 10% of cis women in the United States are infertile, yet most would consider them to be women still.
I could ask you, FA, the same thing about being a man? I had all those social trappings, the body, the life, etc.
This is who I am. I am more me, now, after transition than I ever was before. I have known for many years what I should be.
The way I picture my womanhood is an evolution from within . I was born a certain way. I have not the slightest idea of what a genetically born woman's thought process is. I've experienced females all my life. All I know is that I have never socially fit into the male world. I was the outsider at every moment throughout my life. No mater what I tried to do in the male world I knew I didn't fit. My brain was definitely not male material. I always envisioned my self as belonging as the other gender. In dating and relationships I couldn't be that male persona that was expected. I dated a lot but always failed to be perceived by my partner as their idea of manhood. My view of belonging to the female gender basically comes from the point of view of what I'm not. My dreams have evolved to becoming that woman I am. I started out as a child dreaming of having a vagina to the present of living as the proper gender. It's a difficult question , but really all I know for sure I don't fit in as male and never will. I've learned through school and work that my brain doesn't view it self as male. I've dreamt of being on estrogen since high school. Now that I'm finally on estrogen it is what I've always dreamt it would be. It's an incredible feeling to feel your body change into that which you've always thought it should be. For me just the sensation of estrogen in my body is an unbelievable affirmation of who I've always been inside and now finally outside.
Quote from: Rainbow Brite on April 05, 2014, 10:47:48 PM
I could ask you, FA, the same thing about being a man? I had all those social trappings, the body, the life, etc.
Touche. But in an odd way, being a woman has more of a social and cultural meaning to it than being a man. Being male is the default as being white is the default in Western society. In this way, being a woman has added significance than just gender.
In what way?
Being a man was less work in some ways. Society doesnt really expect a guy to look pretty. And you can be a slob and not be judged, lol. But trying to be a guy when you aren't one is tough.
Quote from: Rainbow Brite on April 05, 2014, 11:21:27 PM
In what way?
Being a man was less work in some ways. Society doesnt really expect a guy to look pretty. And you can be a slob and not be judged, lol. But trying to be a guy when you aren't one is tough.
Oh, I understand.
Quote from: Rainbow Brite on April 05, 2014, 11:21:27 PM
In what way?
Being a man was less work in some ways. Society doesnt really expect a guy to look pretty. And you can be a slob and not be judged, lol. But trying to be a guy when you aren't one is tough.
Ugh, trying to be a guy would physically drain me so much. To pretend to be masculine all the time, gestures, intonation, strut, et cetera. You don't need to look pretty, sure, but you need to be 'a man', and there's a lot that goes with that. The constant power struggles and dominance plays in social groups, amogst friends, or vying for female attention. The worst was going out and trying to
sell yourself to the 'opposite gender' and feeling like a fraud, ughh. I'm so glad that chapter is closing.
Quote from: Nattie on April 05, 2014, 11:36:48 PM
Quote from: Rainbow Brite on April 05, 2014, 11:21:27 PM
In what way?
Being a man was less work in some ways. Society doesnt really expect a guy to look pretty. And you can be a slob and not be judged, lol. But trying to be a guy when you aren't one is tough.
Ugh, trying to be a guy would physically drain me so much. To pretend to be masculine all the time, gestures, intonation, strut, et cetera. You don't need to look pretty, sure, but you need to be 'a man', and there's a lot that goes with that. The constant power struggles and dominance plays in social groups, amogst friends, or vying for female attention. The worst was going out and trying to sell yourself to the 'opposite gender' and feeling like a fraud, ughh. I'm so glad that chapter is closing.
I definitely identify with that as a guy. And it sucks. But at least it's mostly behavior based. As a girl, it's all about winning the genetic lottery. You either look good or you don't. And even if you do, it doesn't last. A guy at least, has the option, however difficult, of changing his behavior. And he's got time on his side to prove himself. For a girl - it's much more limited. If she didn't win the genetic lottery, she's out. For good. No amount of behavior will save her. And even if she did win, her time is very limited. A man has all the time in the world.
But, being a girl can be tough too. Do you know how many Facebook PM's and friend requests I've had from guys who want to "Get to know me" better? dealing with tacky lines and guys with absolutely no class who just want to make out like rabbits is tiring and annoying.
sending me pictures of what is probably not your penis is NOT going to endear me to you.
For the first time ever, this week I was practically ignored when I suggested using a vernier caliper to check that a part was machined correctly and to spec, all because women are not seen as equal to a man.
I have an Engineering degree among some of my other qualifications, so I am not a total idiot. So there's one of the challenges of being a woman.
^_^
Being a woman at least in the "collective subconscious" is referring to a human being which "gets", "receives".
The body of the woman physically receives the man, this "hollow" has other implications like receptive,
acceptance, expansion, and also some "negative" downsides: exploitation (an angry woman during divorce...),
backstabbing (because she is not "direct").
A woman is a modality of being, you can be masculine so you develop the "hero" archetype, the soldier, the
bread winner, the competition, the brotherhood of men.
But you cannot fake those internal modalities. If your mind is "yin" you are a woman, period, even if your body
is not congruent. The hardest part is to know really if you are living at your highest potential or not.
Going in for electrolysis & your lady starts crying, telling you everything. She's married for 7 years but no sex from her husband for 5 years. So she is lonely & sleeps with a hunk of a man that says he's divorced. Later she finds out he's married. The wife finds out & is kind of stalking her & she's scarred about what the wife may do. But she still wants & needs the man, he satisfied her so much & she so needs more sex with him.
And I fully knew how she felt. One married man I dated years ago was such a hunk of a man, all man. I melted in his arms & so loved to be with him to make him satisfied & happy in any way I could. I wanted him all to myself however it was not meant to be.
Quote from: FA on April 05, 2014, 11:48:11 PM
I definitely identify with that as a guy. And it sucks. But at least it's mostly behavior based. As a girl, it's all about winning the genetic lottery. You either look good or you don't. And even if you do, it doesn't last. A guy at least, has the option, however difficult, of changing his behavior. And he's got time on his side to prove himself. For a girl - it's much more limited. If she didn't win the genetic lottery, she's out. For good. No amount of behavior will save her. And even if she did win, her time is very limited. A man has all the time in the world.
You're right, it is all behaviour based, and you can always modify your behaviour. I spent most of my life thinking that the masculinity act was silly, and as a result I was the sensitive, often overlooked guy. Toward the end, I started really going 'all out' in my masculinity, and it took A LOT of energy, but I became alpha male in most of my social groups, and women started magnetizing to me like crazy. But it wasn't me. I felt so hollow, so lonely, because the more people got to know this 'masculine' facade (and it was the only facade women ever wanted to know) the more alone I was. Eventually it became too much.
Although biologically, femininity is about winning the genetic lottery (at least if you want to fulfill your
directive and have children, and be happily married and provided for) I also think women can institute real change in society and become very powerful creators. Men seem to do
EVERYTHING to increase their reproductive appeal, whether its intellectualism, academic pursuits, etc. It all comes down to wanting to be greater than other men subsciously, at least that's how it seems to me. Personally, I've always just wanted to create for the sake of creation, and that (I think) is a very feminine attitude.
IDK. But I'm pretty sure I'm in girl world. All the sudden all these pretty girls want to be my friend. I've had a lot of female friends in my 31 years but pretty women just walk up to me on the street and start asking me about my jacket my clothes and all kinda of tother stuff and then ask for my number so we could hang out and pick up guys. I mean it's great and all and exactly what i wanted but then I feel like I'm in the deep end with no paddle. Plus, some people are scared of balck guys and cross the street, some just scary men, but I see a gaggle of well dressed women and I will run into traffic to avoid them. I thought it was just me being a freaking weirdo but then I saw an interview with Clair Danes and she felt the same exact way. Add guys to the mix and I get even more scared, unless im with my ex because the last time we were walking around on a Friday he told me if anyone so much as looks at me wrong he'll ->-bleeped-<- them up. And for someone who has been beat up a lot that really means alot.
Uh, but, all I know is I identify with all female characters and roles in a way I didn't before or in a way that feels less fradulant. Though, i still feel like a fraud sometimes. All this talk about the genentic lottery kinda makes me rethink my decision cause maybe I could be a man. But then again what women would date a 5'5 118 lb person with my curvy ass measurements.
I guess being female is a way of thinking more than anything else. It's a way of viewing the world and how you react to it and what you think your place in it is. All I know is that my view of it has always been considered female. And I guess it's reactions and not thought out ones, but just reactions to situations. I pretty much think the same thing goes for being a man.
I'm not sure if I have an answer, I'm not sure there is one.
I was watching a movie last night with my BF, Hugh Grant in Love Actually ( yes I made him put on a chick flick :laugh:) at the end of it, which we both enjoyed. I made the comment that I could not get into the male characters heads and had no empathy for them, although I understood their predicaments.
His response was, 'Well that's because you are a woman'. So maybe 'What is being a woman?' should be asked of guys and not girls? But beware the sexist replies!!!!
"X is a woman" isn't an binary attribution, but a construct of convergent attributions.
To me, a woman is a person who both:
self-identifies as a woman with moderate intensity and consistency
consciously presents female (in the broadest sense) with moderate intensity and consistency
If you feel like a woman you are one , no matter what you look like...
Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on April 06, 2014, 03:01:08 AM
I agree with the many posters above - it is mostly a mind set, ability to look at and feel things in a more natural way, to relate to other people in a certain way without doing constant internal self-censoring "No, You cant do this and that, because You are not supposed to". Emotional freedom and ability to feel and express emotions as well, but those most probably are just different aspects of that state of mind.
I kinda get what You meant, though I have to admit that those parts with Peter and Juliet (first in his flat when she find the tape and starts watching and he runs away) and then the scene with "carol singers" made me feel for the poor guy. The rest of the movie... dont work for me that well.
Ye I felt for him, and for the Liam Neilson (?) character but I couldn't understand them. But I did the women. As for Hugh Grant I've never understood his characters or felt for them.
Sorry for the off topic reply.
I don't have an answer. Honestly. My view on 'being a woman' might be too idealistic.
but I'll just go with this quote, because this is what I face everyday.
Quote from: Nattie on April 05, 2014, 11:36:48 PM
Ugh, trying to be a guy would physically drain me so much. To pretend to be masculine all the time, gestures, intonation, strut, et cetera. You don't need to look pretty, sure, but you need to be 'a man', and there's a lot that goes with that. The constant power struggles and dominance plays in social groups, amogst friends, or vying for female attention. The worst was going out and trying to sell yourself to the 'opposite gender' and feeling like a fraud, ughh. I'm so glad that chapter is closing.
Nattie, what you said above..... is basically.... my biography so far. :) It's SCARY, It's like I wrote that, but yet you did...., :D Yeah, this prettttty much sums up how I am right now. I do weird stuff I'm not even comfortable with, because I am expected to do so, I regret it later.
To answer the question again, I have no idea what 'being a woman' means. I think I know, but I might be fooling myself with an idealistic view.
It is a difficult question. I don't know how to answer. Because I've always been a woman. Due to social conditions and my physical situation, I just didn't live the life of typical woman.
Living as myself now, the social situation has changed dramatically. But I don't know if that has any bearing on the answer. I'm the same person at the core, just living in a different world.
Looking at the other side for FtM guys, I totally don't get that either. I just can't comprehend what it means to be a guy. Which seems strange for me to say since I got to see how guys live and behave from an insiders point of view.
I have no idea what it means to be a woman vs a man. To be vulnerable, sometimes I pause and wonder "Why did I go through transition?" Usually such thoughts are closely following a lesson in how similar men and women are. I mean, I've come to meet some beautiful fashionable women and what's in their Facebook updates? Playing Nintendo 64. Corrupting new people into the Lord of the Rings. I know a woman who gets so angry she can be driven to punch the wall. All these behaviors are so very familiar to me from my life prior. Seeing them makes me feel incredibly naïve. There were girls, there had to be girls, being derided by their peers as much as I was for playing video games as a kid. Really, I'm finding the experience of men and women to be much more alike and it's only a surprise because we don't talk about our similarities as a culture.
Maybe it is due in part to a lack of rites of passage for boys and girls. I think of youthful initiations and for boys I think it's getting kicked in the junk, for girls that's getting their ears pierced? Older, for men building a man cave for women giving birth? Wait, no, can't be some of those because as trans people and for some cis folks... we... yeah. Moving on, as women who lament their experience being repressed in favor of a man's experience must know, there is really no justifiable reason for her experience to be marginalized. Now back to rites of passage: for men learning they have social privilege and infallibility, for women learning to deal with the privilege of men. But really men and women having the same kind of life, I'm okay with that.
So, why is my life easier for me to live now? I am confident and secure in my identity as a woman and I'm pretty sure that helps. Maybe for me that confidence is even the only thing that matters. Do I think I still would've needed to transition if social norms allowed men to be more feminine? I do. For all the similarities I do not see how I could've been happy in life if when I interacted with people those people saw man. Can't explain it and please forgive me for being a bad philosopher, but I'm just going to accept it on faith.
I have no idea if any of the above makes any sense. I should really be sleeping.
Hello everyone,
The question of "What makes a woman" is thousands of years old. Men and Women have always wondered, and always seem to find answers that entail submission and subjugation. I reject dependence even as I embrace femininity. But it still seems odd, even though I have known at some level that I have been a girl/woman for almost as long as I can remember, donning the accoutrements of western womanhood was and is pretty essential to my experience of being feminine.
Makeup and clothing are more to me than the costume of the day, but substantively contribute to my internal dialog and self identification. Yes becoming woman is an inside job, but the body changes from HRT, a little help from Nordstroms, and even the occasional confirmation by men, are fundamental to my experience as a woman. Forty years ago I tried to be a girl, then tried to be gay, then just hid in despair. What I think I missed is that for me cross dressing was just a performance. For me to be in drag is not to experience being female. It has taken immersion into the culture of femininity, and the sisterhood (if I may be so cliché) to get the inside and outside in sync.
I am a woman both because that is my self identity, but also because I behave, dress, smell, smile, and love femininely. I love being a girl, I am grateful that that gift was mine to choose, and that I get to share that experience with everyone whose path I cross.
Peace,
Julie
Quote from: FA on April 05, 2014, 10:21:53 PM
what does it mean to you? A difficult concept maybe. Many trans women are without the trappings that usually define 'woman', so what does it mean to you? Being female. In scientific terms this implies the ability to give birth, but is obviously more than that. What is the essence of woman - her beauty, her breasts, her genitals? I had all these and was not a woman, however much I tried to be. So, what is it?
Can't tell you, FA. I still don't feel like I am one. I feel feminine a lot of the time - softer, kinder, gentler, less angry, less fearful or defensive, more focused on others and less on my on ego. But I still feel like actually calling myself a woman is awfully presumptuous.
Woman-ness and man-ness are very complicated concepts.
Perhaps woman-ness and man-ness comes by experience. Maybe I'm becoming more of a woman by living as one.
Quote from: FA on April 05, 2014, 10:21:53 PM
what does it mean to you? A difficult concept maybe. Many trans women are without the trappings that usually define 'woman', so what does it mean to you? Being female. In scientific terms this implies the ability to given birth, but is obviously more than that. What is the essence of woman - her beauty, her breasts, her genitals? I had all these and was not a woman, however much I tried to be. So, what is it?
Feeling normal in a female body, in the same way I feel normal in a human body and identify as human.
The body is one's interface with reality. You wouldn't want to have a plane's controls while on a ship. That's the simplest way I can express this.
There's obviously more to the story, involving self-expression and social function, that can't just be ignored. However, this part varies so much from person to person that I don't feel any blanket statements apply.
I don't think I've ever really given this much consideration before.
I guess for me, it doesn't really mean anything. In the same way that having dark hair or green eyes don't really mean anything. It's just part of who I am. I don't really attach any sort of significance to it. Which is probably weird, lol. I guess it's just a fundamental acceptance of self, to the extent that I don't feel the need to assert it. And doing so just leads to mental gymnastics that I don't have the energy to deal with. Too many questions that I can't be bothered to answer. It's just being me, through thought and word and deed. Expressing myself naturally.
Beyond that... I dunno.
That's a good description of it, Sephirah. :)
Being quite cartesian, to me, it's close to the basic binary view of sex/gender. So, it's about the expression of biology and genes, beyond any social or psychosocial thing.
But, it gets more complicated than that : it's more about a common perception of one person correlated with their self-perception. That is, if any transsexual person passed really well in my eyes, my brain would have a hard time questioning their sex/gender, and I wouldn't bother, even though technically, it can still be discussed. (my sense of reality makes transitioning a harder time, I can't embrace blindly the "I am female" leitmotiv)
Well, Lately I've been staring at women (not in a creepy way, just in a daze) and I keep thinking to myself why have I done this? Is there really any difference? What makes it so special? Why can't I just be a man as it would be so much easier (aside from being treated like dirt again from my appearance and mannerisms)? And I can't think of an answer to why this is so speical and becuase of this specialness, I turned myself into a woman. Not that I was manly in any way before, but I passed as one about 80-90 percent of the time as I have reached 30. It used to be more like 30-50. I also did a lot of exercise to get to that point and even exercised my jaw muscles so my face wouldn't be so round and feminine. I also spent a lot of time on my shoulders.
But, now that I've actually done it, I keep thinking about why. My mom finally accepts me and I walk around the house dressed like a girl and she says nothing, doesn't give me dirty looks and talks to me like it's all completely normal. She has gopne back to being uber-protective like when I was a kid. When I was 12, my dad, my brother (who is two years older), me and my mom went tubing down the Delaware and my mom tied a rope around my tube so I wouldn't float away or something even though my brother is barely older than me and he could just float freely. But, it's like that again and I have to check in with her if I go to my friend's house, or my old apartment as it is, since four white girls have been attacked there recently. I was on a date and she texted me and she told me to leave before midnight as the place wasn't in the greatest of neighborhoods. I had to tell her James, me ex, was arond the corner so she need't worry. She did shut up then. Okay, this is a tangent...my point is I have gotten everything I have ever wanted and now I'm left with this feeling of why. It prolly doesn't help that lately I feel like I'm made of boobs and legs. Everything else is just so...tiny.
So what makes me a woman...well aside from the fact i genetically am one...but I have a half-developed thing so....I think I'm a woman cause I say I am, cause I act like one, cuase I can idetify with all the behaviors other women my age identify with and I do them without thinking. Like I read a lot of women's life style Web sites, like Elite Daily (just a life style site with a woman's section), and they have these lists like 29 Things Every Basic Bitch Does. And I can identify in a major way with pretty much all of them right down to weird ones like "when you hear the word basic you think they're talking about a section of H&M."
I guess it's really just a matter of shared behaviors and likes and dislikes that I fall into for some odd reason. But why does being a women now make me so happy? IDK. All of my dysphoria, which I used to just call being alive, has vanished and the only way I'm dysphoric now is genitally. But in a year or so that will be gone as well.
But then what if my best friend from childhood was right? What if I go through all this and I regret it and end up killing myself? Why he was reading all about hermaprodites and transsexuals I didn't realize at the time. He was in love with me. But this is a long winding response so sorry for that....oopsie.
its a label so it is whatever you label as such and has as much meaning as you load onto it. No more, no less.
Another way to look at this questions is how does the majority of peeps in the world view "being a woman" as? I think most would use the default vagina v. penis analogy so aptly said by that kid in Kindergarten cop: boys have a penis and girls have a vagina. And people say gender is a social construct, which I believe up to a point, but what about david reimer. He had a vag constructed for him after a botched circumcsion. (if only I was so lucky but my mom took me out of the hospital "against medical advice" at age 3 and wouldn't let them play lab rat with me) Then, even after intense and enforced female socialization, he still felt and ultimately became a man. So that's a case study hard to refute and one that kind of turns gender as a social construct on its head. I'm not saying it isn't a social construct, but I think there are traits that people are born with that make them display feminine or masculine behavior. For instance, as a child, i was a drama queen and cried a lot, especially if I didn't get my way. But I also believed I was a girl and would not use the men's room until my mom forced me to at age 6 before kindergarten so i would at least have a chance to be normal. EPIC FAIL lol
What about me? I don't have a Y chromosome, have a blob of Mullerian tissue aka a malformed uterus and broad ligament, yet have a penis (i even hate writing it) and scrotum with two little thingies in there that are able to raise my free T level to 182 (about the amount a woman with PCOS would have). So what the hell am I? All I know is I underwent a weird kind of quasi-male/female socialization at home but at school too and was never allowed to play contact sports with boys. I literally had to sit out in gym class and was made to do the girl push up variety (on knees) to pass one gym class. Plus even when i tried to fight someone they usually replied with a "I don't fight girls" put down. This never ended. A couple years ago I was drink and made the mistake of accetping a challenge to arm wrestle my friend and she beat me, and beat me quickly. I didn't even have a shot. And what did she say afterwards: "I still have never lost to a girl. My record stands. I'm still perfect. I rock!" Her brother shushed her but tried to so it in a way where I wouldn't notice as soon as she mentioned she basically thinks of me as a woman. Apparently, most people do. I also got in the Viper Room on ladies night for free and tried to pay and they were all like "Well, you're close enough, go in." I think they thought I was an FTM.
But, at the same time, even with my oh do complicated medical history, I question if I'm a woman. I'm more some half thing that's part Jill and part Jack. But mainly I feel like a nothing. I saw the movie "Let Me In" and in it this 12 year old female vampire starts a friendship with this boy but then goes "Would you still love me if I wasn't a girl?" And he goes "if you're not a girl then what are you?" And she replies: I'm nothing. And that's how I feel often. I feel like a nothing. That's my main reason for transtioning so I can get out of this androgynous state and have people stop making comments about my body and to have everything match. I don't ever, ever ever want to be anything close to an activist and just want to slide quietly into the background and live a normal life, or as close to I can get, to a female. Transition for me is normality. Womanhood to me is a state of normality where my personality and body match and fit in with other women in a way that it simply does not with men. Every guy I have ever been friends with has stopped being friends with me for one reason: his friends almost in every case highly dislike me and how I act and look and don't want to be hanging with a queer anymore. I do consider myself queer. I am just not welcome in manland. I remember I had this one job and a I barely talked yet whenver I tried to bond they would all walk away or yes me and would not let me participate in their guy talk. Yet, I have had close, intimate friendships with women where we get along so well and I always get along with her friends in most cases and that never happens. Usually the friendship ends in drama. How typical, yes?
So, i've answered this thread like three times now lol and now I feel like I have a better grasp of why again I am doing this. So thanks FA!
Quote from: Joanna Dark on April 06, 2014, 12:46:55 PM
Another way to look at this questions is how does the majority of peeps in the world view "being a woman" as? I think most would use the default vagina v. penis analogy so aptly said by that kid in Kindergarten cop: boys have a penis and girls have a vagina. And people say gender is a social construct, which I believe up to a point, but what about david reimer. He had a vag constructed for him after a botched circumcsion. (if only I was so lucky but my mom took me out of the hospital "against medical advice" at age 3 and wouldn't let them play lab rat with me) Then, even after intense and enforced female socialization, he still felt and ultimately became a man. So that's a case study hard to refute and one that kind of turns gender as a social construct on its head. I'm not saying it isn't a social construct, but I think there are traits that people are born with that make them display feminine or masculine behavior. For instance, as a child, i was a drama queen and cried a lot, especially if I didn't get my way. But I also believed I was a girl and would not use the men's room until my mom forced me to at age 6 before kindergarten so i would at least have a chance to be normal. EPIC FAIL lol
What about me? I don't have a Y chromosome, have a blob of Mullerian tissue aka a malformed uterus and broad ligament, yet have a penis (i even hate writing it) and scrotum with two little thingies in there that are able to raise my free T level to 182 (about the amount a woman with PCOS would have). So what the hell am I? All I know is I underwent a weird kind of quasi-male/female socialization at home but at school too and was never allowed to play contact sports with boys. I literally had to sit out in gym class and was made to do the girl push up variety (on knees) to pass one gym class. Plus even when i tried to fight someone they usually replied with a "I don't fight girls" put down. This never ended. A couple years ago I was drink and made the mistake of accetping a challenge to arm wrestle my friend and she beat me, and beat me quickly. I didn't even have a shot. And what did she say afterwards: "I still have never lost to a girl. My record stands. I'm still perfect. I rock!" Her brother shushed her but tried to so it in a way where I wouldn't notice as soon as she mentioned she basically thinks of me as a woman. Apparently, most people do. I also got in the Viper Room on ladies night for free and tried to pay and they were all like "Well, you're close enough, go in." I think they thought I was an FTM.
But, at the same time, even with my oh do complicated medical history, I question if I'm a woman. I'm more some half thing that's part Jill and part Jack. But mainly I feel like a nothing. I saw the movie "Let Me In" and in it this 12 year old female vampire starts a friendship with this boy but then goes "Would you still love me if I wasn't a girl?" And he goes "if you're not a girl then what are you?" And she replies: I'm nothing. And that's how I feel often. I feel like a nothing. That's my main reason for transtioning so I can get out of this androgynous state and have people stop making comments about my body and to have everything match. I don't ever, ever ever want to be anything close to an activist and just want to slide quietly into the background and live a normal life, or as close to I can get, to a female. Transition for me is normality. Womanhood to me is a state of normality where my personality and body match and fit in with other women in a way that it simply does not with men. Every guy I have ever been friends with has stopped being friends with me for one reason: his friends almost in every case highly dislike me and how I act and look and don't want to be hanging with a queer anymore. I do consider myself queer. I am just not welcome in manland. I remember I had this one job and a I barely talked yet whenver I tried to bond they would all walk away or yes me and would not let me participate in their guy talk. Yet, I have had close, intimate friendships with women where we get along so well and I always get along with her friends in most cases and that never happens. Usually the friendship ends in drama. How typical, yes?
So, i've answered this thread like three times now lol and now I feel like I have a better grasp of why again I am doing this. So thanks FA!
I my self was never accepted by males at work. I don't know why . I think I looked male. They for some reason wouldn't let me in the inner circle. I put up with it for 20 years. What ever
Doesn't mean anything to me, it's just what people decided to call me :/
I'm never gonna be female and I don't particularly care except that life would have been easier for someone like me if I had been.
I don't even know what the genders are supposed to be other than stereotypes of how the sexes think and behave.
Quote from: FA on April 05, 2014, 11:48:11 PM
I definitely identify with that as a guy. And it sucks. But at least it's mostly behavior based. As a girl, it's all about winning the genetic lottery. You either look good or you don't. And even if you do, it doesn't last. A guy at least, has the option, however difficult, of changing his behavior. And he's got time on his side to prove himself. For a girl - it's much more limited. If she didn't win the genetic lottery, she's out. For good. No amount of behavior will save her. And even if she did win, her time is very limited. A man has all the time in the world.
Honestly FA I get how you feel but this is so black and white. And that's coming from me. :/
Quote from: Nattie on April 05, 2014, 11:36:48 PM
Ugh, trying to be a guy would physically drain me so much. To pretend to be masculine all the time, gestures, intonation, strut, et cetera. You don't need to look pretty, sure, but you need to be 'a man', and there's a lot that goes with that. The constant power struggles and dominance plays in social groups, amogst friends, or vying for female attention. The worst was going out and trying to sell yourself to the 'opposite gender' and feeling like a fraud, ughh. I'm so glad that chapter is closing.
Guys don't have to do any of that if they don't want to....
Quote from: sad panda on April 06, 2014, 04:06:55 PM
Guys don't have to do any of that if they don't want to....
Well, I agree, you don't have to do
anything really, what I'm describing is being socially successful in a masculine gender role, and putting yourself in a position where people openly accept you in that role. I suppose I could just be a very feminine male who shaves and dresses andro, but without HRT it feels like a lie? Certainly a line of thinking I need to follow.
Quote from: sad panda on April 06, 2014, 04:06:55 PM
Honestly FA I get how you feel but this is so black and white. And that's coming from me. :/
Well it is, but on a societal level, it's true. Most people don't actively think about it. But they (men and women) do judge women on looks and men more on behavior. This doesn't mean men are never judged on looks; just that it matters much less. And no matter how unattractive a man is, having an attractive woman on his arm raises his esteem in both men and women's eyes. That says it all. This whole value system means that women's value depreciates by the day (aging), but men's can grow as they get more experience, competence, and money. Basically - women are valued most for a depreciating asset. Yeah, I know it's depressing - I was a woman.
Quote from: FA on April 06, 2014, 06:06:03 PM
Well it is, but on a societal level, it's true. Most people don't actively think about it. But they (men and women) do judge women on looks and men more on behavior. This doesn't mean men are never judged on looks; just that it matters much less. And no matter how unattractive a man is, having an attractive woman on his arm raises his esteem in both men and women's eyes. That says it all. This whole value system means that women's value depreciates by the day (aging), but men's can grow as they get more experience, competence, and money. Basically - women are valued most for a depreciating asset. Yeah, I know it's depressing - I was a woman.
wow, I thought I was going to find greener pastures
That is one way to look at things, FA... although, it is almost entirely fallacious.
Vanity has nothing to do with sex or gender. Unfortunately, many people buy into the fallacy, literally. There is a billions dollars industry that caters to vanity.
It is surprising to see your thesis, and while it is more nuanced, it, at first glance, reads like, "You will only be a real woman if you are young and pretty." And if that is the case, that is society's problem, not mine.
Quote from: FA on April 06, 2014, 06:06:03 PM
Well it is, but on a societal level, it's true. Most people don't actively think about it. But they (men and women) do judge women on looks and men more on behavior. This doesn't mean men are never judged on looks; just that it matters much less. And no matter how unattractive a man is, having an attractive woman on his arm raises his esteem in both men and women's eyes. That says it all. This whole value system means that women's value depreciates by the day (aging), but men's can grow as they get more experience, competence, and money. Basically - women are valued most for a depreciating asset. Yeah, I know it's depressing - I was a woman.
Yah, it's just not absolute. I don't think it's right to say women can't do anything about it with their actions or personality. I mean to phrase it like that cuz you know it's not true. And treating it like it is true, and for women to keep believing it is true is just discouraging women from even trying. On paper there is nothing definitely keeping a woman from being utterly successful from her actions alone. In reality there are a lot of roadblocks, but you did say that men can do it "however hard." Well women can do it however hard too, it's just harder in a lot of ways. Not impossible. That's what I meant about it being black and white.
(and I'm saying that as pretty much the most powerless person ever, lol.)
Quote from: Tori on April 06, 2014, 06:27:22 PM
That is one way to look at things, FA... although, it is almost entirely fallacious.
Vanity has nothing to do with sex or gender. Unfortunately, many people buy into the fallacy, literally. There is a billions dollars industry that caters to vanity.
It is surprising to see your thesis, and while it is more nuanced, it, at first glance, reads like, "You will only be a real woman if you are young and pretty." And if that is the case, that is society's problem, not mine.
Not at all fallacious. This youth and beauty trap for females is at least as real and potent as the behavourial codes for males. I'm not advocating it by any means. I'm saying this is the case for women on a societal level. You probably won't hear this in such stark terms elsewhere - but you get it every day in subtle ways. Young girls grow up knowing their power is in their looks.
Now obviously, I'm not saying that on the individual level, every woman's life sucks if she's not young and pretty. But it's the same as how a man's life doesn't have to suck if he's effeminate. He may be living it up. Doesn't mean there aren't huge societal behavioral restrictions for men.
We can explore the nature of fallacy elsewhere.
The beauty "Trap" is real, and I can see it as being a dysphoric trigger for many FTMs.
The fact is traps can be avoided. Many MTFs WANT to play the beauty game and do not see it as a trap. Others, like me, never would have transitioned if beauty was a personal requirement to be female.
Isn't that probably the most explosive issue on this site to be beautiful and " passible , or pretty enough to "pass" or not even to try. .
In the sense that passing is blending in, it does for many, take more work to pass as female than male.
Quote from: Tori on April 06, 2014, 06:53:55 PM
We can explore the nature of fallacy elsewhere.
The beauty "Trap" is real, and I can see it as being a dysphoric trigger for many FTMs.
The fact is traps can be avoided. Many MTFs WANT to play the beauty game and do not see it as a trap. Others, like me, never would have transitioned if beauty was a personal requirement to be female.
Well, sure MTFs are viewing this with a different lens. They haven't grown up with this youth and beauty chain around their necks. Just as I haven't grown up with a masculinity chain around my neck. Obviously it isn't a requirement - plenty of effeminate guys and homely chicks around. But look around and tell me women aren't valued first and foremost for their bodies - on a societal level.
Historically, globally, no, they were not. It is, in great part, a Judeo/Christian, Colonialist construct.
Quote from: Tori on April 06, 2014, 07:12:15 PM
Historically, globally, no, they were not. It is, in great part, a Judeo/Christian, Colonialist construct.
Well, times have certainly changed. And it used to be that virginity was the measure of a young woman. With that gone, beauty has become the price of admission. At least the former was mostly something within her control. Now we've got eating disorders and plastic surgery addictions with the latter.
Quote from: FA on April 05, 2014, 11:48:11 PM
I definitely identify with that as a guy. And it sucks. But at least it's mostly behavior based. As a girl, it's all about winning the genetic lottery. You either look good or you don't. And even if you do, it doesn't last. A guy at least, has the option, however difficult, of changing his behavior. And he's got time on his side to prove himself. For a girl - it's much more limited. If she didn't win the genetic lottery, she's out. For good. No amount of behavior will save her. And even if she did win, her time is very limited. A man has all the time in the world.
Thank you for saying this. I feel this pressure every day, and feel like my genetics being mostly male are a huge uphill battle for me. It isn't just limited to non-trans girls (I'm not sure if that's what you were saying?). I frequently stress myself over my youth slipping away while I try to chip away at money for FFS/GRS. I feel as though, in the end, I'll have 10 years to really enjoy life. If I'm even pretty. If I'm even passable. Then I'll be old. An old woman who no one cares about except for her friends, who know her personality. I have to fight myself not to resent losing a good 2/3 of my youth. There's no point in being bitter. For the record, this feeling of powerlessness has always been there for me. Even as a "guy," who had really great genetics (although, I was overly concerned with my looks compared to most men).
As to answer your question about what it means to be a woman, for me it means not wanting to be any other way -- despite all of the hardship -- and not really needing a reason for that. A comfortable compulsion, and nothing more.
Quote from: FA on April 06, 2014, 07:07:47 PM
Well, sure MTFs are viewing this with a different lens. They haven't grown up with this youth and beauty chain around their necks. Just as I haven't grown up with a masculinity chain around my neck. Obviously it isn't a requirement - plenty of effeminate guys and homely chicks around. But look around and tell me women aren't valued first and foremost for their bodies - on a societal level.
Women are valued for their bodies by sex hungry males...
And as something close to a woman I couldnt care less about how others see my body, if they think its my most important aspect then they are just ignorant and disrespectful...
Some girls unfortunately fall for this trap but most dress the way they do to feel pretty , not to impress boys...
I just feel ashamed , its unfair really...
Women are free to act and dress how they want , there just has to be a man who ll call them sluts and bitches when the only thing he d use them for is sex...
Im dissapointed by society ...
Quote from: FalsePrincess on April 06, 2014, 07:26:31 PM
Quote from: FA on April 06, 2014, 07:07:47 PM
Well, sure MTFs are viewing this with a different lens. They haven't grown up with this youth and beauty chain around their necks. Just as I haven't grown up with a masculinity chain around my neck. Obviously it isn't a requirement - plenty of effeminate guys and homely chicks around. But look around and tell me women aren't valued first and foremost for their bodies - on a societal level.
Women are valued for their bodies by sex hungry males...
And as something close to a woman I couldnt care less about how others see my body, if they think its my most important aspect then they are just ignorant and disrespectful...
Some girls unfortunately fall for this trap but most dress the way they do to feel pretty , not to impress boys...
I just feel ashamed , its unfair really...
Women are free to act and dress how they want , there just has to be a man who ll call them sluts and bitches when the only thing he d use them for is sex...
Im dissapointed by society ...
It is disappointing really. And girls often do dress for themselves and the approval of other girls. In the same way boys strut for other boys. Women judge each other on their bodies and fashion more than men do. It just seems so unfair somehow as a girl to be judged mostly on something you literally have no control over. Something so superficial. Something that depreciates with every breath. Like mileage on a car. For a guy, mileage is just experience.
In the animal kingdom, it is not common for females to fall into a beauty trap either. Females blend into their surroundings better in general, males are flashier, more colorful, and the female tends to select their mate.
Humans, are no exception. The males are more colorful. Easier to see. Easier to read from a distance. At least until you add makeup and fashion.
I think, FA, we agree it is a societal construct. If society genders someone, it may happen through the filter of beauty. If someone genders themself, it does not have to.
I think the fundamental argument FA is making isn't about ethics or self-acceptance, but about the realization women have that beauty is power, power equals success, and success equals happiness.
We can steel our own minds, but we can't change that of others. The world is not a beautiful place where only good people hold power. Frequently, apathetic or terrible people hold power -- and to those people, a woman's beauty often does matter. Aside from people making conscious decisions based on beauty, there is also a common, subconscious edge when establishing friendships (and thus connections), landing employment, mediating disagreements, succeeding in deals, and so on and so forth. The benefits for sexual partners and vanity are really just icing. Beauty extends as a weight to all facets of life. No matter your mindset, you cannot change the world's influence over you -- only how it makes you feel, and in the end, we're only human when it comes to the amount of zen we hold over our lives.
The only thing I'm really in disagreement with is the seeming exclusionary clause for MtF. Not all people assigned male at birth were ignorant of the gripping claws of beauty until womanhood came knocking. There are some of us who have been there right from the beginning, for one reason or another (most probably unusual social circumstances). Anyone who is overweight or has a deformity probably understands this very well, too.
Everything is mostly in the head for me. Physical attributes come second to my thoughts. My brain has been through hell and back with me and I just want it to feel normal. The only way to do that for me is hormones.
Quote from: FA on April 06, 2014, 07:38:57 PM
Women are valued for their bodies by sex hungry males...
And as something close to a woman I couldnt care less about how others see my body, if they think its my most important aspect then they are just ignorant and disrespectful...
Some girls unfortunately fall for this trap but most dress the way they do to feel pretty , not to impress boys...
I just feel ashamed , its unfair really...
Women are free to act and dress how they want , there just has to be a man who ll call them sluts and bitches when the only thing he d use them for is sex...
Im dissapointed by society ...
It is disappointing really. And girls often do dress for themselves and the approval of other girls. In the same way boys strut for other boys. Women judge each other on their bodies and fashion more than men do. It just seems so unfair somehow as a girl to be judged mostly on something you literally have no control over. Something so superficial. Something that depreciates with every breath. Like mileage on a car. For a guy, mileage is just experience.
This does really suck though. i'm so afraid of getting old. I'm trying to not obsess over my appearance only and lose out on having a skill or something but it is hard, not havin any confidence in anything about me. Being pretty is the only thing that makes me feel normal. But I'm already piling in the list of surgeries i feel like I need (that have nothing to do with being trans) just to feel human. Esp a tummy tuck. Sucks losing your flat tummy before you could even be valued for it. hah... :/
Quote from: Sybil on April 06, 2014, 07:46:53 PM
I think the fundamental argument FA is making isn't about ethics or self-acceptance, but about the realization women have that beauty is power, power equals success, and success equals happiness.
We can steel our own minds, but we can't change that of others. The world is not a beautiful place where only good people hold power. Frequently, apathetic or terrible people hold power -- and to those people, a woman's beauty often does matter. Aside from people making conscious decisions based on beauty, there is also a common, subconscious edge when establishing friendships (and thus connections), landing employment, mediating disagreements, succeeding in deals, and so on and so forth. The benefits for sexual partners and vanity are really just icing. Beauty extends as a weight to all facets of life. No matter your mindset, you cannot change the world's influence over you -- only how it makes you feel, and in the end, we're only human when it comes to the amount of zen we hold over our lives.
Very true. And at least someone seems to understand what I'm trying to say. :)
Obviously I feel very strongly about this. And just as many on here talk about the damaging effects of forced masculinity - well, this is my damage. And a very common one for women. It was forced on me. It's not like I could help how I looked or how I developed - this isn't about personality, masculinity or femininity. It's flesh pure and simple.
QuoteThe only thing I'm really in disagreement with is the seeming exclusionary clause for MtF. Not all people assigned male at birth were ignorant of the gripping claws of beauty until womanhood came knocking. There are some of us who have been there right from the beginning, for one reason or another (most probably unusual social circumstances). Anyone who is overweight or has a deformity probably understands this very well, too.
Well, I never really thought about that, but that makes sense as well.
Quote from: Sybil on April 06, 2014, 07:46:53 PM
The only thing I'm really in disagreement with is the seeming exclusionary clause for MtF. Not all people assigned male at birth were ignorant of the gripping claws of beauty until womanhood came knocking. There are some of us who have been there right from the beginning, for one reason or another (most probably unusual social circumstances). Anyone who is overweight or has a deformity probably understands this very well, too.
This is true too, lol I had to laugh and look back at my journal from when I was 12 or 13:
"Since I started gaining weight, I just stopped wanting to talk to people anymore.. slowly but surely stopped talking to basically all of my friends.. . . . Well It's amazing how much people care about your weight and how you look. If ignorance were fatal then probably everyone would be dead by now. Soo yep, I'm homeschooling now... I just hate going places. I have like no self esteem, not to mention like no friends. I hate myself..."
I have struggled with binging/purging/starving/extreme diets/harmful exercising since then... still never felt like I lost enough weight even though I did get to a normal helahty range eventually. But always gonna struggle with it.
Quote from: sad panda on April 06, 2014, 07:57:04 PM
This does really suck though. i'm so afraid of getting old. I'm trying to not obsess over my appearance only and lose out on having a skill or something but it is hard, not havin any confidence in anything about me. Being pretty is the only thing that makes me feel normal. But I'm already piling in the list of surgeries i feel like I need (that have nothing to do with being trans) just to feel human. Esp a tummy tuck. Sucks losing your flat tummy before you could even be valued for it. hah... :/
Well, the last thing I want to do is give young girls a complex. Somehow it's important and a part of healing for me to talk about this. Because transition hasn't fixed it. I think I still view myself the way women do - from an outside perspective. I mean, I could explain it away and make excuses for it, but the truth is most men aren't as vain or focused on looks and age as me. And that's female programming. How many men do you know who use face cream? Seriously. Sure, there may be a few. But I'm not going to kid myself. it's female programming. Men may have general worries about looks and aging and all but as a side note - not the main course women have.
Quote from: FA on April 06, 2014, 08:41:28 PM
Well, the last thing I want to do is give young girls a complex. Somehow it's important and a part of healing for me to talk about this. Because transition hasn't fixed it. I think I still view myself the way women do - from an outside perspective. I mean, I could explain it away and make excuses for it, but the truth is most men aren't as vain or focused on looks and age as me. And that's female programming. How many men do you know who use face cream? Seriously. Sure, there may be a few. But I'm not going to kid myself. it's female programming. Men may have general worries about looks and aging and all but as a side note - not the main course women have.
Then it's good to talk about it :) I didn't mean you were giving me a complex w that post (damage is long done) I was just agreeing that it sucks. This stuff is absolutely damaging.
Quote from: sad panda on April 06, 2014, 08:50:43 PM
Quote from: FA on April 06, 2014, 08:41:28 PM
Well, the last thing I want to do is give young girls a complex. Somehow it's important and a part of healing for me to talk about this. Because transition hasn't fixed it. I think I still view myself the way women do - from an outside perspective. I mean, I could explain it away and make excuses for it, but the truth is most men aren't as vain or focused on looks and age as me. And that's female programming. How many men do you know who use face cream? Seriously. Sure, there may be a few. But I'm not going to kid myself. it's female programming. Men may have general worries about looks and aging and all but as a side note - not the main course women have.
Then it's good to talk about it :) I didn't mean you were giving me a complex w that post I was just agreeing that it sucks. This stuff is absolutely damaging.
Thanks for that sweetie. Sometimes I worry that in talking about this, I'm painting a bleak picture of womanhood for the young and new ladies here. And I really don't mean to do that. That's the last thing I want. We hear often on this site how it is being a man and the expectations surrounding that. But rarely what it's like for a girl. Probably part of that is guys (ftms) just don't talk much about that kind of stuff. And I certainly wouldn't have early in transition. But I'm well past that stage and really have nothing to prove anymore. And a lot of baggage to drop. So... yeah.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYwgG2oyUbA
I wish I could unread all of this. Ugh. If I could, I'd go back to being a man. But, I never got the chance to even try and I mean that in a very physical sense. Sometimes, I feel so alone on this board and in the trans world in general. I can't even detransition because there is nothing to detranstion to. If I stopped taking hormones and had my boobs surgically removed, they would grow back within a year. At least, that's what the doctor said. I'm all of 5'5 and 118 lbs and dropping and that may sound great to some, but I live in a ->-bleeped-<-ing ghetto, and I might as well have a target on my back. But, now I think what am I transtioning too? I'm already all the supreficial things that comprise "being a woman": I'm vain (i've been using makeup and face creams for a very long time; I always wonder how others see me and try to put myself in their shoes and i imagine what they see and how I can fix it so i can look better. I'm by far the most vain person I know. My ex said give me a mirror, a camera and some makeup and you could lock me in a room for days without a peep.
But I really have been thinking this a lot lately. Why am I doing this? I mean sure not getting weird looks anymore is great, but now I feel like am I doing this just for the looks, because I'm that vain. That doesn't seem right at all. I almost feel like throwing up.
But then again, what choice do I have. I'll just keep going into something stops me or i self-destruct. IDK. This question is too hard, may have another?
Quote from: FA on April 06, 2014, 09:03:53 PM
Then it's good to talk about it :) I didn't mean you were giving me a complex w that post I was just agreeing that it sucks. This stuff is absolutely damaging.
Thanks for that sweetie. Sometimes I worry that in talking about this, I'm painting a bleak picture of womanhood for the young and new ladies here. And I really don't mean to do that. That's the last thing I want. We hear often on this site how it is being a man and the expectations surrounding that. But rarely what it's like for a girl. Probably part of that is guys (ftms) just don't talk much about that kind of stuff. And I certainly wouldn't have early in transition. But I'm well past that stage and really have nothing to prove anymore. And a lot of baggage to drop. So... yeah.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYwgG2oyUbA
Well to be fair it is kinda bleak. I mean trans women usually lose a lot a lot to go thru their transitions and they should probably expect that it's going to be that way. I was actually thinking about it today. It's really hard for trans women to completely assimilate. Even a long time in it's super normal to struggle forming or keeping basic satisfying relationships and pretty much anything. Part of that is being trans, a lot of that is definitely also living as a woman. Who may or may not be able to live up to standards of beauty, who barely even have value as an object and yeah, may suddenly have no worth to so many people. It's just really sad for cis and trans women alike. :c
(not saying there aren't successful, happy trans women, just statistically it is not a good demographic to be in if you can avoid it...)
Kind of ironically I sometimes think it's even harder for stealth trans women than openly trans women. Cuz if you're stealth you're just living like a cis woman with extra internal problems.
Quote from: sad panda on April 06, 2014, 08:37:36 PM
This is true too, lol I had to laugh and look back at my journal from when I was 12 or 13:
"Since I started gaining weight, I just stopped wanting to talk to people anymore.. slowly but surely stopped talking to basically all of my friends.. . . . Well It's amazing how much people care about your weight and how you look. If ignorance were fatal then probably everyone would be dead by now. Soo yep, I'm homeschooling now... I just hate going places. I have like no self esteem, not to mention like no friends. I hate myself..."
I have struggled with binging/purging/starving/extreme diets/harmful exercising since then... still never felt like I lost enough weight even though I did get to a normal helahty range eventually. But always gonna struggle with it.
It was like this for me, too. I became overweight around age 5, and stayed that way until I was 18. I went back again between 20-22. I don't think a day went by that I felt like less of a human being. Invisible and yet not. Being in the role of a guy with extremely effeminate concerns didn't help, either -- I was always worrying about stuff like skin, clothes, hair, etc.
I lost weight when I got a little older, and started to get a lot of attention. Hormones have only helped that, frustratingly, and I get a lot more commentary than I'd care for at work; people often feel the need to remind me my male self is attractive (some times
very creepily). I'm frequently told I'm beautiful. Normally this would be nice, but I don't care for the persona, and that sort of commentary only serves as a reminder.
The duality of it frustrates me to no end. It's so unjust. It also scares the crap out of me. I remember what it was like for people to pass me over, and now I know what it is to have to do next to nothing to hold people's attention. My female persona is unpassable, even if it isn't necessarily homely. I'm worried that FFS won't leave me beautiful, despite being very confident it'll leave me passable. Not for the sake of vanity, but because I've tasted what it is to feel desired, to feel unjudged, on so many levels, and I deeply fear going back. I hate that this sort of thing matters. The lack of control and uncertainty is the most suffocating part.
Quote from: sad panda on April 06, 2014, 09:43:29 PM
Kind of ironically I sometimes think it's even harder for stealth trans women than openly trans women. Cuz if you're stealth you're just living like a cis woman with extra internal problems.
i think there is some truth to this at least from my point of view. I'm not stealth or full-time by traditional defintions but for the last month or so no one believes I'm a man when I actively try to pass as one. A lot of this has to do with the warm weather and being unable to hide my body. But whatever the reason, like this girl came up and just started talking to me, and she was really pretty and had on this super cute flowered print shift dress, and she started talking about my jacket and if I was too hot and I just like froze. This has been happening to be with some regularity lately too. I was with my ex walking around and this other girl came up to me and was like is that your BF, you're lucky he's really hot. And I was just...frozen. I managed to squek out that we broke up and are doing some FWB thing and she was like "I liked the way you put that. Put him in his place." I don't know, I may be totally misinterpeting what you're saying but I just feel like I was walking along the water and all the sudden hit a trench and now I'm drowning. Well, that's a little dramatic actually. But I just have such low self esteem I cant imagine why these girls are talking to me and want to be my friend so bad. Thios other girl was all let me get your number and we'll go shopping and was all about me...in like a friend way. I think she was lonely. But all these girls are really pretty and did they lose their ugly friend or something and im the replacement? IDK. But these girls have no idea im trans and I just dont get it.
Maybe that's not what you meant at all but I just feel so overwhelmed and all the sudden it's like this crown of acceptance has been placed on my head and like...congrats...you've been accepted to girl world. Stay for awhile. Wait stay forever. For whatever reason, somehow I think I've gotten pretty looking or at least have big boobs and I feel like I have done this all for the looks. I had a friend and she was great but she moved and now I just feel so alone. Plus, my ex's roommate is like jealous of me or something. That's what he says. She has some kind of obssesion with my high priced makeup. Or my makeup skills in general and this just compounds all my other issues. She thinks I'm this superficial, know it all stuck up bitch. I may be superficial but Im hardly a bitch to this woman. I'm practically a doormat.
Sorry, that prolly didn't make any sense.
Quote from: sad panda on April 06, 2014, 09:43:29 PM
Quote from: FA on April 06, 2014, 09:03:53 PM
Then it's good to talk about it :) I didn't mean you were giving me a complex w that post I was just agreeing that it sucks. This stuff is absolutely damaging.
Thanks for that sweetie. Sometimes I worry that in talking about this, I'm painting a bleak picture of womanhood for the young and new ladies here. And I really don't mean to do that. That's the last thing I want. We hear often on this site how it is being a man and the expectations surrounding that. But rarely what it's like for a girl. Probably part of that is guys (ftms) just don't talk much about that kind of stuff. And I certainly wouldn't have early in transition. But I'm well past that stage and really have nothing to prove anymore. And a lot of baggage to drop. So... yeah.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYwgG2oyUbA
Well to be fair it is kinda bleak. I mean trans women usually lose a lot a lot to go thru their transitions and they should probably expect that it's going to be that way. I was actually thinking about it today. It's really hard for trans women to completely assimilate. Even a long time in it's super normal to struggle forming or keeping basic satisfying relationships and pretty much anything. Part of that is being trans, a lot of that is definitely also living as a woman. Who may or may not be able to live up to standards of beauty, who barely even have value as an object and yeah, may suddenly have no worth to so many people. It's just really sad for cis and trans women alike. :c
(not saying there aren't successful, happy trans women, just statistically it is not a good demographic to be in if you can avoid it...)
Kind of ironically I sometimes think it's even harder for stealth trans women than openly trans women. Cuz if you're stealth you're just living like a cis woman with extra internal problems.
Eeeee well honestly, yeah I hate to admit it as not to discourage young ladies here, but yeah honestly, it's bleak. Being female isn't the greatest position to be in at the best of times. And I'd really only advise it for those who must or have no choice. I mean as much lip service as we give, being a girl still has lower status than being a boy. In every part of the world. Of course I don't believe women are lower status (I have a mother!), but the world does (and the world's a fool).
Quote from: FA on April 06, 2014, 10:05:22 PM
Well to be fair it is kinda bleak. I mean trans women usually lose a lot a lot to go thru their transitions and they should probably expect that it's going to be that way. I was actually thinking about it today. It's really hard for trans women to completely assimilate. Even a long time in it's super normal to struggle forming or keeping basic satisfying relationships and pretty much anything. Part of that is being trans, a lot of that is definitely also living as a woman. Who may or may not be able to live up to standards of beauty, who barely even have value as an object and yeah, may suddenly have no worth to so many people. It's just really sad for cis and trans women alike. :c
(not saying there aren't successful, happy trans women, just statistically it is not a good demographic to be in if you can avoid it...)
Kind of ironically I sometimes think it's even harder for stealth trans women than openly trans women. Cuz if you're stealth you're just living like a cis woman with extra internal problems.
Eeeee well honestly, yeah I hate to admit it as not to discourage young ladies here, but yeah honestly, it's bleak. Being female isn't the greatest position to be in at the best of times. And I'd really only advise it for those who must or have no choice. I mean as much lip service as we give, being a girl still has lower status than being a boy. In every part of the world. Of course I don't believe women are lower status (I have a mother!), but the world does (and the world's a fool).
I think it just comes down to why you want to change your gender. If it an innate reason that really has no other option you just deal with all the imperfections and live the life that will complete you.
Quote from: Sybil on April 06, 2014, 09:47:11 PM
It was like this for me, too. I became overweight around age 5, and stayed that way until I was 18. I went back again between 20-22. I don't think a day went by that I felt like less of a human being. Invisible and yet not. Being in the role of a guy with extremely effeminate concerns didn't help, either -- I was always worrying about stuff like skin, clothes, hair, etc.
I lost weight when I got a little older, and started to get a lot of attention. Hormones have only helped that, frustratingly, and I get a lot more commentary than I'd care for at work; people often feel the need to remind me my male self is attractive (some times very creepily). I'm frequently told I'm beautiful. Normally this would be nice, but I don't care for the persona, and that sort of commentary only serves as a reminder.
The duality of it frustrates me to no end. It's so unjust. It also scares the crap out of me. I remember what it was like for people to pass me over, and now I know what it is to have to do next to nothing to hold people's attention. My female persona is unpassable, even if it isn't necessarily homely. I'm worried that FFS won't leave me beautiful, despite being very confident it'll leave me passable. Not for the sake of vanity, but because I've tasted what it is to feel desired, to feel unjudged, on so many levels, and I deeply fear going back. I hate that this sort of thing matters. The lack of control and uncertainty is the most suffocating part.
Yeah... my body image just destroyed me. I missed middle and high school, basically any socialization in that period, never got a job, only just going to start college now at 22. And frankly that is terrifying. Before, My fear was so low level, it would render me completely non-functional over the most basic things. Could barely hold my eyes open, the world itself was blinding. The only reason I got to this point is cause i was pretty enough to make a guy want to baby me enough that I could start to have a life and start healing. It still doesn't go away ever. I can't see myself in the freaking mirror. I don't have an honest idea of what i even look like because I can't see the reality. people constantly tell me i'm pretty and I never ever feel that way. Ever. People tel me i'm thin and I think no, I'm enormous. No amount of clothes, accessories, treatments, serums, lotions or potions can help it, but I desperately look for the next solution anyway. I don't ever feel comfortable in my own skin and it's been such a long fought battle to feel able to just exist in public. Instead I just destroy my body more and more cause that's all that feels good. I objectify myself cause it feels good to know somebody wants anything from me at all.
All I can say is don't think it is gonna go away with any amount of FFS or anything like that. I think you have to fix it from within but i am just not there yet. Even today, I went out and my appearance was all that i thought about all day, just always so uncomfortable in myself, and that has nothing to do with fear of not passing because I accepted a long time ago i always pass.. It's all I have ever known to think about.
Sorry you have to deal with this stuff too... it's just awful. I mean not everyone gets as crazy about it as me but... I wouldn't wish these problems on anyone. :( I think I just still feel disgusting from the inside, which also has more tl it than the weight issues.
Quote from: FA on April 06, 2014, 10:05:22 PM
Eeeee well honestly, yeah I hate to admit it as not to discourage young ladies here, but yeah honestly, it's bleak. Being female isn't the greatest position to be in at the best of times. And I'd really only advise it for those who must or have no choice. I mean as much lip service as we give, being a girl still has lower status than being a boy. In every part of the world. Of course I don't believe women are lower status (I have a mother!), but the world does (and the world's a fool).
Yeah ... when I sit there trying to explain to my bf why i would want to detransition even though being a boy is so wrong for me in almost every way, it just comes down to that nothing much about being a woman makes me happier, esp as a lesser woman. For thsoe people who have that, I think it's great, but it needs to be pretty strong to be worth it in my opinion. Really the only plus for me is that I can be myself more and I can be objectified (because if i had to be treated like a human being I'd probably be in a homeless shelter, not that basically living as a pet is glamorous either.
Quote from: Joanna Dark on April 06, 2014, 10:04:14 PM
i think there is some truth to this at least from my point of view. I'm not stealth or full-time by traditional defintions but for the last month or so no one believes I'm a man when I actively try to pass as one. A lot of this has to do with the warm weather and being unable to hide my body. But whatever the reason, like this girl came up and just started talking to me, and she was really pretty and had on this super cute flowered print shift dress, and she started talking about my jacket and if I was too hot and I just like froze. This has been happening to be with some regularity lately too. I was with my ex walking around and this other girl came up to me and was like is that your BF, you're lucky he's really hot. And I was just...frozen. I managed to squek out that we broke up and are doing some FWB thing and she was like "I liked the way you put that. Put him in his place." I don't know, I may be totally misinterpeting what you're saying but I just feel like I was walking along the water and all the sudden hit a trench and now I'm drowning. Well, that's a little dramatic actually. But I just have such low self esteem I cant imagine why these girls are talking to me and want to be my friend so bad. Thios other girl was all let me get your number and we'll go shopping and was all about me...in like a friend way. I think she was lonely. But all these girls are really pretty and did they lose their ugly friend or something and im the replacement? IDK. But these girls have no idea im trans and I just dont get it.
Maybe that's not what you meant at all but I just feel so overwhelmed and all the sudden it's like this crown of acceptance has been placed on my head and like...congrats...you've been accepted to girl world. Stay for awhile. Wait stay forever. For whatever reason, somehow I think I've gotten pretty looking or at least have big boobs and I feel like I have done this all for the looks. I had a friend and she was great but she moved and now I just feel so alone. Plus, my ex's roommate is like jealous of me or something. That's what he says. She has some kind of obssesion with my high priced makeup. Or my makeup skills in general and this just compounds all my other issues. She thinks I'm this superficial, know it all stuck up bitch. I may be superficial but Im hardly a bitch to this woman. I'm practically a doormat.
Sorry, that prolly didn't make any sense.
Well that must be hard for you, it is not exactly what I meant though, I meant at least if people see you as a trans woman and don't accept you, a part of them is accepting you as a male and extending you some amount of privilege that comes with that. Like they can roll their eyes about your gender but they might still trust you to fix their car or something (I don't know random example sorry lol) anyway you'll be more than your appearance then.
If it helps (sorry i edit my posts so much, kinda spacy) at least nobody will ever think you are weird as a pretty girl? Pretty much no matter how you behave. The girl club isn't very high pressure in that sense.
Quote from: sad panda on April 06, 2014, 10:16:53 PM
Yeah... my body image just destroyed me. I missed middle and high school, basically any socialization in that period, never got a job, only just going to start college now at 22. And frankly that is terrifying. Before, My fear was so low level, it would render me completely non-functional over the most basic things. Could barely hold my eyes open, the world itself was blinding. The only reason I got to this point is cause i was pretty enough to make a guy want to baby me enough that I could start to have a life and start healing. It still doesn't go away ever. I can't see myself in the freaking mirror. I don't have an honest idea of what i even look like because I can't see the reality. people constantly tell me i'm pretty and I never ever feel that way. Ever. People tel me i'm thin and I think no, I'm enormous. No amount of clothes, accessories, treatments, serums, lotions or potions can help it, but I desperately look for the next solution anyway. I don't ever feel comfortable in my own skin and it's been such a long fought battle to feel able to just exist in public. Instead I just destroy my body more and more cause that's all that feels good. I objectify myself cause it feels good to know somebody wants anything from me at all.
All I can say is don't think it is gonna go away with any amount of FFS or anything like that. I think you have to fix it from within but i am just not there yet. Even today, I went out and my appearance was all that i thought about all day, just always so uncomfortable in myself, and that has nothing to do with fear of not passing because I accepted a long time ago i always pass.. It's all I have ever known to think about.
I know. I know it's probably not going to go away. I don't know if it ever will; it's been a part of my design for too long. I talk to my best friend about it all the time, and that helps. We became fast friends 8 years ago talking about stuff like this, and guys, and what it means to be a woman (she's cis) ... beauty is a big part of what we talk about, even now. After all these years. At least every week, often every day. I think we always will, it's that important. It's that suffocating.
The things you say about your body image sound so incredibly familiar to me. I know there isn't much that can be said, only that I feel awful every time I know someone else is going through it, too. All I can do is share. :/
I'm not sure I totally understand where you're coming from on gender. Is it that you were MtF and detransitioned? If that's the case, that makes me sad. It could be the other way around and it'd make me just as sad. I think about letting go of transition all of the time .. but no matter how I think about it, it's always terrifying, and feels like it promises pain either way. If both sides are going to hurt, I may as well stick to the one I'm drawn to. I hope the one you pick is the one that's going to make you happier, I really do.
Quote from: FA on April 06, 2014, 09:03:53 PM
Then it's good to talk about it :) I didn't mean you were giving me a complex w that post I was just agreeing that it sucks. This stuff is absolutely damaging.
Thanks for that sweetie. Sometimes I worry that in talking about this, I'm painting a bleak picture of womanhood for the young and new ladies here. And I really don't mean to do that. That's the last thing I want. We hear often on this site how it is being a man and the expectations surrounding that. But rarely what it's like for a girl. Probably part of that is guys (ftms) just don't talk much about that kind of stuff. And I certainly wouldn't have early in transition. But I'm well past that stage and really have nothing to prove anymore. And a lot of baggage to drop. So... yeah.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYwgG2oyUbA
The learning curve for being female is surprisingly high for me. I just do not get too hung up on appearance. Looking GOOD is fun for me, no matter the gender. Yes, it is more ingrained in female, Western culture than male... looking good. To look GOOD, let alone female, can be a challenge for a MTF.
Quote from: Sybil on April 06, 2014, 07:46:53 PM
I think the fundamental argument FA is making isn't about ethics or self-acceptance, but about the realization women have that beauty is power, power equals success, and success equals happiness.
We can steel our own minds, but we can't change that of others. The world is not a beautiful place where only good people hold power. Frequently, apathetic or terrible people hold power -- and to those people, a woman's beauty often does matter. Aside from people making conscious decisions based on beauty, there is also a common, subconscious edge when establishing friendships (and thus connections), landing employment, mediating disagreements, succeeding in deals, and so on and so forth. The benefits for sexual partners and vanity are really just icing. Beauty extends as a weight to all facets of life. No matter your mindset, you cannot change the world's influence over you -- only how it makes you feel, and in the end, we're only human when it comes to the amount of zen we hold over our lives.
The only thing I'm really in disagreement with is the seeming exclusionary clause for MtF. Not all people assigned male at birth were ignorant of the gripping claws of beauty until womanhood came knocking. There are some of us who have been there right from the beginning, for one reason or another (most probably unusual social circumstances). Anyone who is overweight or has a deformity probably understands this very well, too.
I know that for me growing up with a deformity has absolutely made me aware of the looks = worth mentality that seems to be everywhere. I went through several surgeries starting at age 4. All of this was in the hopes of achieving some level of "normal". As a child I was told that eventually the doctors might be able to "fix" my eye, but I would have to live with it for the time being.
That's were I had to learn by experience and from my mother who a role model for me. I inherited neurofibromatosis from her. In her case her entire body is covered with thousands of pea to grape sized tumours. It was by her example that I was able to learn that you can be valued by others as a human being
in spite of your appearance. It was by watching others that I learned that the "popularity" held by the attractive girls and alpha males was often shallow and fleeting.
I had the benefit of knowing that the people I called friends truly did value me, and why it's not surprising that they stuck by me through my transition. While undoubtedly my male gender role as a child and young adult spared me many elements of the caustic nature of beauty culture, neurofibromatosis made it so I had to overcome it anyway.
As I've started to feel social pressure to care about my appearance as a woman, I've come to understand how so many women end up with such a horrible self body image. I've been grateful that I do have the understanding and strength from my own experiences to fall back on.
Yup.
So well put.
Vanity can indeed make a woman. So can good genetics. Being born a cis female is a great start...
STRENGTH can make a woman too. Belief. Being.
Quote from: Sybil on April 06, 2014, 10:57:30 PM
I know. I know it's probably not going to go away. I don't know if it ever will; it's been a part of my design for too long. I talk to my best friend about it all the time, and that helps. We became fast friends 8 years ago talking about stuff like this, and guys, and what it means to be a woman (she's cis) ... beauty is a big part of what we talk about, even now. After all these years. At least every week, often every day. I think we always will, it's that important. It's that suffocating.
The things you say about your body image sound so incredibly familiar to me. I know there isn't much that can be said, only that I feel awful every time I know someone else is going through it, too. All I can do is share. :/
I'm not sure I totally understand where you're coming from on gender. Is it that you were MtF and detransitioned? If that's the case, that makes me sad. It could be the other way around and it'd make me just as sad. I think about letting go of transition all of the time .. but no matter how I think about it, it's always terrifying, and feels like it promises pain either way. If both sides are going to hurt, I may as well stick to the one I'm drawn to. I hope the one you pick is the one that's going to make you happier, I really do.
Well I decided for sure that I want to detransition. I can't in reality right now because basically I don't have that level of control over my life...
It is definitely painful either way but I guess to me nothing is as painful as being a trans woman. Of all the reasons I would have initially listed as why I want to transition, none of them gave me much more than a very fleeting glimmer of happiness. But then, I never had the social experience of being trans. Socially I was a cis boy one day and a cis girl the next. I can identify the exact minute when that change happened. So... I was pretty immediately confronted with the fact that it didn't make me happy and there was no mystery in that, i mean the whole point is to be accepted everywhere as a girl and that was behind me. But I was stuck then too so I tried to convince myself it would get better. And it did, well i mean it only got easier... no matter how much better it gets it doesn't make me happier. Detransition is sad in a lot of ways to me, and the thought of being a boy and suddenly being made responsible for myself is scary but I have to be honest about that fundamental reality that I don't think I can ever be happy (at least for/about myself) this way....
That's just me though, i don't wanna generalize to much bc everyone is unique. I know that hella more girls suffer with these mental health issues than guys, but that doesn't mean all of them do by any means. And it doesn't mean no girls are happy with where they are. I could probably be happyish as a cis girl in the same life but being trans is personally just one too many reasons to hate myself.
I hope that your experience with transition is different than mine and that it gives you everything you want from it. :)
Quote from: Tori on April 07, 2014, 05:42:27 AM
Yup.
So well put.
Vanity can indeed make a woman. So can good genetics. Being born a cis female is a great start...
STRENGTH can make a woman too. Belief. Being.
Mmm if you think this is about vanity, then I don't think you've gotten what I've been trying to say. I, and many cis women are vain because we've been taught since birth that our value lies in our looks. Especially if we happen to be good looking or have a decent body. I wish I could put into better words how awful and limiting this is. To be valued first by your outsides - something you don't have much control over and really can't change. Something you're fighting a losing battle every day with - flesh. Deteriorating flesh. This is why eight year olds are developing eating disorders and 16 year olds are getting boob jobs. Because women grow up knowing that to all intents and purposes, they ARE their bodies.
Nobody talks about it and it makes people uncomfortable. A lot of lip service is paid to the opposite message of empowerment and being yourself, and 'girls can be anything' etc. But that's largely what it is - lip service. Little girls aren't stupid. We grow up in a world where people like us, with bodies like ours are highly sexualized and posed half naked on billboards, TV, everywhere. Society's glaring message is that we are SEX. Men are human beings. They can be ugly, fat, nerdy, old and still win the day. We can't.
"To live in a culture where women are routinely naked where men aren't is to learn inequality in little ways all day long" - Naomi WolfAnd if it were just society, maybe we could get over it. But it's not. We hear first and foremost about our looks from our families, friends, and lovers. We hear it at church every Sunday as little girls. "Such a pretty girl." "She looks like a doll in that Easter dress." "What beautiful hair!" We may be praised for other things, but first and foremost for our appearance.
And then we go through puberty at 11 and
really hear it. We know what the world values us for. And that on a very real level that nobody wants to admit (because it is awful and uncomfortable) we are
things. Not people.
It hurts. It really does. I wish I had words for how much it hurts. For the damage it's done to me. But I don't.
Quote from: FA on April 07, 2014, 09:19:18 AM
Society's glaring message is that we are SEX. Men are human beings. They can be ugly, fat, nerdy, old and still win the day. We can't.
I am sorry, but I have to disagree with how you are presenting this. You obvioulsy did not enjoy your childhood experiences, but as you turned out be FTM, is that really a surprise? The flipside is that I, as an MTF, did not exactly enjoy my pre-transition life either and so my view may be as slanted (and wrong) as yours.
We may both be guilty of projection - viewing things through our pain and expecting others to feel it too. Many do not feel the pain and angst we do.
Men have a cr*p time of it too. To me it was obvious that women held many of the trump cards in life. As a man I was assumed to be a rapist / murderer / sex pest / pervert / etc
simply because I was a man. One example - I once picked up my daughter from nursery and I got taken to the side and interrogated whilst women who did not know the staff interrogating me simply wandered past to pick up kids. Women are not child molesters....
If a woman accuses a man of something it can wreck his life. There have been cases of slighted women making accusations against a man and the mud sticks. He is tainted for life. It very, very rarely happens the other way round. Women are trusted more because they are thought to be more caring and empathetic.
As a man I was expected to "become something", my career would define me and everything about me. It would be my life. I was expected to throw myself into it 24/7/365 and all other thing where subjugated to it. I was expected to "become" a lawyer or an engineer or an accountant. People asked me
what I was, not
who I was. It was as dehumanizing as being a "sex object", it was just less obvious.
When I expressed wanting to spend time with my family, it counted against me.
"You do not have time for that" I was told. Basically, men are little more than self-propelled hammers or spanners. They are expected to subjugate everything to their careers.
You rail against beauty. Fair enough, it is overdone, no doubt about it. But how about watching yourself degrade into an ugliness so profound that it is fascinating? Of sweating profusely and smelling stale even when you wash? Of watching your skin degrade into a bristly, leathery, hairy covering? What about being dragged about by an unsleeping libido that means you are always having to force yourself to stay under control in case you lose it? What about the casual violence in male society? The emotional numbness? What about the constant battle for dominance through "doing someone else down"?
Being a bloke is no picnic and I for one am very, very glad to be leaving it behind forever.
I'm sorry but all this smacks of some real insensitivity towards trans women in general, especially the what you put WE FA. As in a WE that does not include a ME. Be a man and be my size and see how far ya get. Cause ya aint getting very ->-bleeped-<-ing far. If you're under 5'6 and a man, you wont have job, you wont get laid, and if you add being femme because you are a ->-bleeped-<-ing hermaphrodite to the mix, you get to be beat up and put in male prisons and ->-bleeped-<-ing tag teamed. Now what that means. Its when two guys come up to you grab your arms, force them against the wall, and screw you. Its a real ->-bleeped-<-ing hoot. So thanks for making me feel more alone than ever.
Quote from: Joanna Dark on April 07, 2014, 10:44:55 AM
I'm sorry but all this smacks of some real insensitivity towards trans women in general, especially the what you put WE FA. As in a WE that does not include a ME. To site here and act like girls in the western world are just objects and nothing more when every single statistic says otherwise is a bit much. Be a man and be my size and see how far ya get. Cause ya aint getting very ->-bleeped-<-ing far. If you're under 5'6 and a man, you wont have job, you wont get laid, and if you add being femme because you are a ->-bleeped-<-ing hermaphrodite to the mix, you get to be beat up and put in male prisons and ->-bleeped-<-ing tag teamed. Now what that means. Its when two guys come up to you grab your arms, force them against the wall, and ->-bleeped-<- you. Its a real ->-bleeped-<-ing hoot. So thanks for making me feel more alone than ever.
<sigh> I really don't think you get anything I said. I am NOT saying men's lives are a picnic. I know men who have been raped in prison and such. Men who were raped as children. This isn't some kind of one upmanship here.
But honestly, why do the hardships men or people born male face always get dragged into this? Talking about what it's like for women doesn't mean men or people born male have it easy. Not at all.
I don't think you got what I said. I don't like being called a man and told I'm not a woman. I'm not a man, in a very real genetic way. But thanks for doubling down.
Quote from: FA on April 07, 2014, 10:50:29 AM
But honestly, why do the hardships men or people born male face always get dragged into this? Talking about what it's like for women doesn't mean men or people born male have it easy. Not at all.
Because that it how you present it. You said ...
"We grow up in a world where people like us, with bodies like ours are highly sexualized and posed half naked on billboards, TV, everywhere. Society's glaring message is that we are SEX. Men are human beings. They can be ugly, fat, nerdy, old and still win the day. We can't. ".... and that reads as "men have it better than women". They don't. Men may not be sexualised in the same way as women, but the sexual role assigned to men (predator) is nothing to shout about from billboards.
Quote from: Joanna Dark on April 07, 2014, 10:53:07 AM
I don't think you got what I said. I don't like being called a man and told I'm not a woman. I'm not a man, in a very real genetic way. But thanks for doubling down.
OMG I did not call you a man! I did not tell you you're not a woman! Read what I said. I'm just talking about the environment young girls face growing up. And the culture women live in. And the harm it does. This includes you, as you're a woman.
Quote from: provizora3 on April 07, 2014, 10:56:47 AM
Quote from: FA on April 07, 2014, 10:50:29 AM
But honestly, why do the hardships men or people born male face always get dragged into this? Talking about what it's like for women doesn't mean men or people born male have it easy. Not at all.
Because that it how you present it. You said ...
"We grow up in a world where people like us, with bodies like ours are highly sexualized and posed half naked on billboards, TV, everywhere. Society's glaring message is that we are SEX. Men are human beings. They can be ugly, fat, nerdy, old and still win the day. We can't. "
.... and that reads as "men have it better than women". They don't. Men may not be sexualised in the same way as women, but the sexual role assigned to men (predator) is nothing to shout about from billboards.
That's debatable. Look, I've transitioned and pass perfectly as man. So yeah, I know what it's like to be afraid to help a little child at a grocery store. Trust me, it's not comparable. Like I said, I never said men or male born people have it easy. It sucks on both sides. But try growing up knowing your worth hangs on your flesh and how good it looks. To be a pair of tits at 11. And then you might know what I'm getting at.
I'm sorry then. I guess I took it the wrong way. I do agree with pretty much evrything you're saying, BTW.
Quote from: Joanna Dark on April 07, 2014, 11:14:03 AM
I'm sorry then. I guess I took it the wrong way. I do agree with pretty much evrything you're saying, BTW.
That's okay sweetie.
To illustrate my point to everyone -
this is me. Not literally, no. But this is what it felt like.
(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSCu-KwZnUkRIBFsioVc3vM_7ownHRzD90iuf2wSF2oCha4T_S_)
Mounds of flesh. Things.
A thing. Sorry, but there really isn't anything comparable men go through. That doesn't mean being a man doesn't suck, dying in wars, losing in custody battles, seen as potential predators, stifled from expressing emotion, etc. But through all this, they are still seen as HUMAN BEINGS in society. Women really aren't.
Quote from: FA on April 07, 2014, 11:10:36 AM
Because that it how you present it. You said ...
"We grow up in a world where people like us, with bodies like ours are highly sexualized and posed half naked on billboards, TV, everywhere. Society's glaring message is that we are SEX. Men are human beings. They can be ugly, fat, nerdy, old and still win the day. We can't. "
.... and that reads as "men have it better than women". They don't. Men may not be sexualised in the same way as women, but the sexual role assigned to men (predator) is nothing to shout about from billboards.
That's debatable. Look, I've transitioned and pass perfectly as man. So yeah, I know what it's like to be afraid to help a little child at a grocery store. Trust me, it's not comparable. Like I said, I never said men or male born people have it easy. It sucks on both sides. But try growing up knowing your worth hangs on your flesh and how good it looks. To be a pair of tits at 11. And then you might know what I'm getting at.
FA, I get that this is something that you are struggling with and it's clear that you have suffered from it. We've been down this avenue before in the general forums.
I hear you. Growing up in a female role is damaging. But I am confused as to what you are looking for when bringing this conversation to the MTF board.
It's not that we (or at least I) don't want to understand, but rather we (or at least I) can never completely understand because we (or at least I) haven't experienced it.
It's only natural that we would discuss this from our perspective, and that we would bring up our own struggles because it's our experience.
Quote from: ErinM on April 07, 2014, 11:33:25 AM
Quote from: FA on April 07, 2014, 11:10:36 AM
Because that it how you present it. You said ...
"We grow up in a world where people like us, with bodies like ours are highly sexualized and posed half naked on billboards, TV, everywhere. Society's glaring message is that we are SEX. Men are human beings. They can be ugly, fat, nerdy, old and still win the day. We can't. "
.... and that reads as "men have it better than women". They don't. Men may not be sexualised in the same way as women, but the sexual role assigned to men (predator) is nothing to shout about from billboards.
That's debatable. Look, I've transitioned and pass perfectly as man. So yeah, I know what it's like to be afraid to help a little child at a grocery store. Trust me, it's not comparable. Like I said, I never said men or male born people have it easy. It sucks on both sides. But try growing up knowing your worth hangs on your flesh and how good it looks. To be a pair of tits at 11. And then you might know what I'm getting at.
FA, I get that this is something that you are struggling with and it's clear that you have suffered from it. We've been down this avenue before in the general forums.
I hear you. Growing up in a female role is damaging. But I am confused as to what you are looking for when bringing this conversation to the MTF board.
It's not that we (or at least I) don't want to understand, but rather we (or at least I) can never completely understand because we (or at least I) haven't experienced it.
It's only natural that we would discuss this from our perspective, and that we would bring up our own struggles because it's our experience.
Just to talk I guess. I didn't mean for this thread to turn into this. Really, I didn't. I guess I just need to talk about it. Among friends. I have no female ones (in RL) and you can't talk to men about these things.
I remember when i was briefly taking classes living as a boy and somehow ended up in a class of only like 2 girls and 15+ boys. The girls dropped it pretty quick and They didn't have to be on their best behavior anymore and having never had male friends it was really a culture shock to me. The professor was a woman and they didn't like her teaching style... they didn't talk about why they didn't like it though. They just talked about ->-bleeped-<-ing her. constantly, when she was barely even out of earshot. I would take the long way to the bathrooms tonget away from them and that's all they'd talk about every break. One of the guys in that class would talk to me sometimes and whenever he would mention a female student he wouldn't say anything about who she was, just her ass. Did that so many times. I was always too afraid to call him out on it since i had really bad social anxiety and would just nod and go uh huh to people who talked to me, apparently they interpreted that as friendly so he never got that I didn't want to hear it. Good lord I got so tired of his ->-bleeped-<-. I still have a hard time believing that men think like this but being confronted with it was pretty awful.
Quote from: FA on April 07, 2014, 11:39:21 AM
Just to talk I guess. I didn't mean for this thread to turn into this. Really, I didn't. I guess I just need to talk about it. Among friends. I have no female ones and you can't talk to men about these things.
In the "other thread" is seem to remember at least one or two other FTM's mentioning that they had a similar experience, and I seem to remember that they too were reluctant to talk to other guys about this.
Forgive me for the generalization, but I'll never get the hangup that most guys seem to have about talking about their feelings. I have to say that is one of the more damaging aspects of living as a male in society.
There is definitely objectification of both sexes.
I totally know what you mean about women being reduced to our looks. I'm having to get used to being treated as if I'm invisible in all sorts of social situations. And I'm far from ordinary looking - way taller and thinner than most women my age.
Objectification of women is much more visible than objectification of men, because women complain about it. Objectification of men is just as pernicious. We watch war movies and see scores of men gunned down by machine gun fire. We don't see them as people, simply as sort of toy soldiers.
So when a president tells us, "let's go invade some smaller country because we don't like their religion", the nation cheers him on, remembering those objectified men from our war movies and video games. Our legislature approves it by an 80-20 margin. It's only afterward when we learn the stories of our soldiers who came back maimed and about the family members of those who were killed that we wonder why we were so eager to play international bully.
Athletes (mostly males) are objectified. We've built a system where they do horrendous things to their bodies for our entertainment. We pay the 0.1% at the top ridiculous wages and required the other 99.9% to basically sacrifice the normality of their lives and the endurance of their bodies if they want a shot at that money. In many place status and popularity depend on being able to perform on an athletic field and the willingness to sacrifice body and time to achieve that performance.
Males are also financially objectified. If you don't or can't earn what society expects, you are less worthy.
Men are emotionally objectified. Men are allowed to display anger or grief, but are basically denied the full range of expression that women are permitted.
And men are violently objectified. Every living male has had, at some point, to defend his worthiness by fighting. My own father, a pacifist and the gentlest male I've ever known, encouraged my childhood male self to fight bullies when I was being picked on.
I've got to agree with FA. Being objectified sucks on both sides.
Quote from: sad panda on April 07, 2014, 11:41:43 AM
I remember when i was briefly taking classes living as a boy and somehow ended up in a class of only like 2 girls and 15+ boys. The girls dropped it pretty quick and They didn't have to be on their best behavior anymore and having never had male friends it was really a culture shock to me. The professor was a woman and they didn't like her teaching style... they didn't talk about why they didn't like it though. They just talked about ->-bleeped-<-ing her. constantly, when she was barely even out of earshot. I would take the long way to the bathrooms tonget away from them and that's all they'd talk about every break. One of the guys in that class would talk to me sometimes and whenever he would mention a female student he wouldn't say anything about who she was, just her ass. Did that so many times. I was always too afraid to call him out on it since i had really bad social anxiety and would just nod and go uh huh to people who talked to me, apparently they interpreted that as friendly so he never got that I didn't want to hear it. Good lord I got so tired of his ->-bleeped-<-. I still have a hard time believing that men think like this but being confronted with it was pretty awful.
Yes. I certainly got an earful the second I started passing as a guy. It's not just men though. Women also do this. See women as body parts. Everyone sees women this way (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/25/women-and-objectification_n_1701275.html).
To go back to what I said to Erin,
I guess that it's just that I'm in a lot of pain. I've transitioned years ago, but still dealing with all this. Trans women on this forum are really the only female friends I've ever had. So, I guess that somehow I'm thinking y'all will commiserate with what I'm saying. And when y'all don't and sound offended, I'm confused and don't know what I said to upset. I talk about growing up as a girl because it is what I know and it is different. And I believe it's responsible for a lot of the hang ups I have now. But when I do this, I'm not meaning to compare and contrast and exclude you all. But how else can I talk about this without talking about how it's different growing up female? Because this experience is what hurts now. And it's about growing up and living as female. It certainly doesn't mean that I'm trying to hurt or exclude trans women. You're the ones I'm coming to with this! The ones I'm confiding in. I don't feel this safe to even talk about this anywhere else. Not with men, not with trans men, not anywhere but here.
@suzi Why not make a thread about how men are objectified tho? It's perfectly okay to also talk about that to heal from it too.
Quote from: FA on April 07, 2014, 11:58:36 AM
Yes. I certainly got an earful the second I started passing as a guy. It's not just men though. Women also do this. See women as body parts. Everyone sees women this way (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/25/women-and-objectification_n_1701275.html).
Yeah.. I was just surprised at how straightforward it was. Like they weren't even embarrassed about it. It seemed so nefarious just in how casually they were willing to act like that. I at least expect women to know there is a person beyond the body parts because they know that about themselves (usually :/)... men, sometimes I honestly have to wonder if many of them actually even believe that.
Quote from: sad panda on April 07, 2014, 11:41:43 AM
I remember when i was briefly taking classes living as a boy and somehow ended up in a class of only like 2 girls and 15+ boys. The girls dropped it pretty quick and They didn't have to be on their best behavior anymore and having never had male friends it was really a culture shock to me. The professor was a woman and they didn't like her teaching style... they didn't talk about why they didn't like it though. They just talked about ->-bleeped-<-ing her. constantly, when she was barely even out of earshot. I would take the long way to the bathrooms tonget away from them and that's all they'd talk about every break. One of the guys in that class would talk to me sometimes and whenever he would mention a female student he wouldn't say anything about who she was, just her ass. Did that so many times. I was always too afraid to call him out on it since i had really bad social anxiety and would just nod and go uh huh to people who talked to me, apparently they interpreted that as friendly so he never got that I didn't want to hear it. Good lord I got so tired of his ->-bleeped-<-. I still have a hard time believing that men think like this but being confronted with it was pretty awful.
I've had a very similar experience except it was at a drug and alcohol outpatient rehab center. The whole class was full of men (and me) and then this girl was put in the class. She immediately became the center of attention even though she clearly did not want to be and she was going through some emotional problems. But, she smiled and nodded and just sat there and let it happen. I think one of the guys asked for her number I don't know. But every time there was no women around they started talking about "I'd bang that bitch and blah, blah, blah her vagina blah, blah blah huge tits" I was so happy when I didn't have to go anymore. It was a real man's man drug and alcohol class. The teacher despised me. I started transitioning as soon as it was done.
Quote from: Joanna Dark on April 07, 2014, 12:03:08 PM
But every time there was no women around they started talking about "I'd bang that bitch and blah, blah, blah her vagina blah, blah blah huge tits"
I've seen this crudeness too. Some of this is bravado and posturing. A lot of these guys have girlfriends they actually care about. Unfortunately, a lot of them do have this attitude, and even more unfortunate is that there are a lot of women with low self esteem who put up with those guys.
Quote from: suzifrommd on April 07, 2014, 12:10:40 PM
I've seen this crudeness too. Some of this is bravado and posturing. A lot of these guys have girlfriends they actually care about. Unfortunately, a lot of them do have this attitude, and even more unfortunate is that there are a lot of women with low self esteem who put up with those guys.
Yeah but how many of them have female friends they don't see as a potential source of sex and actually care about?
FA, my heart breaks for you. I sincerely hope that you can find someone to talk to about this.
Even knowing that you dint mean to invalidate or offend me, it's still hard for me to read a lot if what you are saying.
A major struggle for me is not having grown up the right gender. That I will never experience life as a young woman.
Despite my ability to cope and the truths I've come to know, I still wish at times that I could experience what it is like to be an attractive young woman. That in some sick and twisted way I would have my womanhood validated by being objectified in that way.
I've list count of the number if times I've been crippled, crying myself to sleep in the middle of the day trying to get past the grieving of my "lost" childhood, adolescence and young adulthood.
That is why I can't help but feel invalidated and hurt when this comes up. I know that you don't mean to, but it feels like salt in a wound that I so desperately want to heal up.
Quote from: ErinM on April 07, 2014, 11:50:35 AM
Quote from: FA on April 07, 2014, 11:39:21 AM
Just to talk I guess. I didn't mean for this thread to turn into this. Really, I didn't. I guess I just need to talk about it. Among friends. I have no female ones and you can't talk to men about these things.
In the "other thread" is seem to remember at least one or two other FTM's mentioning that they had a similar experience, and I seem to remember that they too were reluctant to talk to other guys about this.
Forgive me for the generalization, but I'll never get the hangup that most guys seem to have about talking about their feelings. I have to say that is one of the more damaging aspects of living as a male in society.
Very true. This, what I'm dealing with - is a very awkward and unsettling conversation. Most cis women don't realize or don't want to acknowledge it. And they lack the perspective I have living as male. It just seems natural to them. The way of the world. Everyone believes in fairness and nobody wants to acknowledge or see this. That's why what I'm saying sounds so jarring to the ear. Everyone lives it, sees it everyday. But nobody, male or female, wants to admit it. But not acknowledging doesn't protect women from it. Trans women may not have grown up with it, but they inherit it. And it must be weird - going from a whole being to being a collection of parts. They probably notice it more than cis women who know no different. So, this has got to be jarring for trans women coming into this - especially the young and pretty.
Quote from: FA on April 07, 2014, 12:37:23 PM
So, this has got to be jarring for trans women coming into this - especially the young and pretty.
Well, I can't say anything about being young or pretty. I'm rather plain and squarely middle aged.
But being invisible because I'm not attractive ticks me off. I was in a social situation last night where a select portion of the male attendees basically ignored me, even when I was sitting across the table.
But I love it when I meet the rare guy who finds me hot and unaccountably wants to know every little detail about me. I suppose the bad comes with the good.
When all is said and done, being ignored by people whose vision is clouded by my physical presence only serves to separate me from those whom I probably wouldn't want to do much with anyway.
Quote from: FA on April 07, 2014, 11:58:36 AM
I guess that it's just that I'm in a lot of pain. I've transitioned years ago, but still dealing with all this.
Indeed. It is sh*t on both sides of the fence but for transitioners, in either direction, it is worse because we really feel it so personally. Adolesence is a such a difficult time for anyone but I think that for people like us it is so much worse.
Quote from: FA on April 07, 2014, 11:58:36 AM
Trans women on this forum are really the only female friends I've ever had. So, I guess that somehow I'm thinking y'all will commiserate with what I'm saying. And when y'all don't and sound offended, I'm confused and don't know what I said to upset.
I think we get upset because many of us had such an awful time too. You seemed to be portraying men as having a better run in life than women and I can see why because in some ways they do where money and power is concerned, but for anything else they are little more than cannon fodder. From my perspective I was taught that I was disposable and that women were precious and to be protected (from other men!!) at all costs. Women and children first. Protect the weak. Sacrifice yourself - you're a man aren't you?
So what your discussion here is showing is that growing up can be damaging. The gender merely selects the form of damage. Perhaps this would be a good point to redirect the discussion slightly?
Quote from: FA on April 07, 2014, 11:58:36 AMI talk about growing up as a girl because it is what I know
And here in MTF land we talk about growing as boys for the same reason.
Quote from: FA on April 07, 2014, 11:58:36 AMAnd I believe it's responsible for a lot of the hang ups I have now.
I differ at this point. I believe that the process of being socialised incorrectly is what damaged all of us. That stage of our lives is when many of our peers learn to bend to society's viewpoint and they begin to accommodate themselves to the pres-assigned gender roles. Some rebel but most do not. A tiny fraction - us - get damaged and upset by it.
Quote from: FA on April 07, 2014, 11:58:36 AM
You're the ones I'm coming to with this! The ones I'm confiding in. I don't feel this safe to even talk about this anywhere else. Not with men, not with trans men, not anywhere but here.
And I see no reason not to continue your discussion because I think that it has unearthed some useful perspectives and illuminated some aspects of life that might otherwise have been missed.
Quote from: FA on April 07, 2014, 12:37:23 PM
In the "other thread" is seem to remember at least one or two other FTM's mentioning that they had a similar experience, and I seem to remember that they too were reluctant to talk to other guys about this.
Forgive me for the generalization, but I'll never get the hangup that most guys seem to have about talking about their feelings. I have to say that is one of the more damaging aspects of living as a male in society.
Very true. This, what I'm dealing with - is a very awkward and unsettling conversation. Most cis women don't realize or don't want to acknowledge it. And they lack the perspective I have living as male. It just seems natural to them. The way of the world. Everyone believes in fairness and nobody wants to acknowledge or see this. That's why what I'm saying sounds so jarring to the ear. Everyone lives it, sees it everyday. But nobody, male or female, wants to admit it. But not acknowledging doesn't protect women from it. Trans women may not have grown up with it, but they inherit it. And it must be weird - going from a whole being to being a collection of parts. They probably notice it more than cis women who know no different. So, this has got to be jarring for trans women coming into this - especially the young and pretty.
How did you first notice the difference? I mean living as a guy. I mean how did you first realize how much it was affecting you?
It's interesting to me bc for me it was different but not necessarily jarring. I knew it was going to be that way, I guess I just didn't care because I didn't believe I had any worth to anyone anyway or had never been given a sense of that. Or maybe i had, but it never got internalized, I don't know. :/
I guess what I'd say is it feels like being a plant. A decoration. That blooms for a short time. And then withers and is useless. I was only ever a young woman, but even the youngest of women know the threat of this. The expiration date feeling.
This is me. And this is Adriana Lima.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.greencarelandscapes.net%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F07%2Fmoney-plant.jpg&hash=cb47c1611a5a77f8fcd794cebfb88d7395c12250)
(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSKiqww31B1k_VnVO-P9hND3-XR4uvQLy2r9lJzhkunUPiaCNHF)
A bloom. A flower. A thing. Do any of us know or care what Adriana Lima (or any beautiful woman) is good at? Other than being a great decoration? Sure, there may be a few rare individuals who do. But seriously? Any woman who's name is known is known because she's great decoration. (With the exception of Oprah, Hillary, and that Alaska girl (who still have their looks and weight held up for scrutiny more than anything).)
Any man who's known is known for what he does. Not for being a pretty plant. Sure there are male models and the like, but the exception only proves the rule. Plant and woman should be synonymous. And sure, I know being a man sucks. But at least he is measured by his character. Plants don't have character.
At least you had the time of being a beautiful young woman.
I was small, skinny, and not good looking, frowned upon because I was male, frowned upon because I wasn't muscular, smart or good looking.
We all carry these crosses, it comes with being unhappy with who we were and how we were treated.
Quote from: FA on April 07, 2014, 01:08:58 PM
I guess what I'd say is it feels like being a plant. A decoration. That blooms for a short time. And then withers and is useless. I was only ever a young woman, but even the youngest of women know the threat of this. The expiration date feeling.
This is me. And this is Adriana Lima.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.greencarelandscapes.net%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F07%2Fmoney-plant.jpg&hash=cb47c1611a5a77f8fcd794cebfb88d7395c12250)
(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSKiqww31B1k_VnVO-P9hND3-XR4uvQLy2r9lJzhkunUPiaCNHF)
A bloom. A flower. A thing. Do any of us know or care what Adriana Lima (or any beautiful woman) is good at? Other than being a great decoration? Sure, there may be a few rare individuals who do. But seriously? Any woman who's name is known is known because she's great decoration. (With the exception of Oprah, Hillary, and that Alaska girl (who still have their looks and weight held up for scrutiny more than anything).)
Any man who's known is known for what he does. Not for being a pretty plant. Sure there are male models and the like, but the exception only proves the rule. Plant and woman should be synonymous. And sure, I know being a man sucks. But at least he is measured by his character. Plants don't have character.
So, sorry if i'm being nosy here, but does it hurt more because it feels like you escaped it and you're sad for those who won't?
Or because a part of you still can't/didn't/couldn't escape it? Your expiration date.
Quote from: Sarah Louise on April 07, 2014, 01:14:12 PM
At least you had the time of being a beautiful young woman.
Yes, but that's the point - being a plant. A decoration, when I wanted to be a human being. I am now - a fat, short, ugly human being. But a human being! Treated with respect. Not a plant. Not a thing. Not SEX. A living, breathing thing. I don't have to fight for respect or to have my words heard. I'm human. Horrible how one of the first thoughts I had after passing as a 12 year old male was - 'so this is what it's like to be human'.
Well, you are anything but a plant here.
You're a valuable and respected person here.
Quote from: FA on April 07, 2014, 12:37:23 PM
And it must be weird - going from a whole being to being a collection of parts. They probably notice it more than cis women who know no different. So, this has got to be jarring for trans women coming into this - especially the young and pretty.
Yes, it is. I don't think I'm pretty by any standard but guys apparently like me a lot and all these pretty girls all the sudden want to be my friend and it is really bizarre to me for someone who has basically spent the majority of their life being beat up and outcasted. I've had a lot of female friends but they came into my life situation-ally. Women just want to talk to me now for some reason and I am afraid of women sometimes, especially pretty ones. Like if they found out, if they knew kind of thing. I thought I was just a total freak but I looked it up and a lot of women have the same problem, ie being afriad of pretty women, mainly groups of them.
As far as men, The other day there was guy who would just not stop staring at my chest and every time I looked over, he cast his eyes down. but then when I looked away, his head moved right back into place. It feels good to pass so well now, especially since I really haven't done anything other than take hormones, but this same guy was of the type who would have wanted to beat me up before. I could just tell my the way he carried himself. And it's not just him, all the sudden men seem to be going out of their way to talk to me. Some guy came up to me and asked me if I was alright and if I needed anything. He was a worker for the METRO/SEPTA, but no one ever did anything close to that before. I live in a not so nice part of town where thee are a lot prostitutes and every day some guy asks me if I'm working. Prostitutes around here don't dress the way they do on TV. Maybe they don't anywhere. I have no idea. I only know how it is Philly.
Quote from: FA on April 07, 2014, 01:08:58 PM
I guess what I'd say is it feels like being a plant. A decoration. That blooms for a short time. And then withers and is useless. I was only ever a young woman, but even the youngest of women know the threat of this. The expiration date feeling.
And I will counter you by saying that not every woman feels that way. I know many women my own age (40s/50s) who are definitely past the teen/20/30 beauty stage and they still have confidence in themselves and their appearance. One trick they can do is to use their self-confidence to pull men. Men are attracted to powerful, self-assured women
even if those women are not classically beautiful. Many a bloke will say that she
"has something about her, 'cause she ain't good looking, but even so"Many, perhaps even most women, get over the "beauty" thing. As they say
"You do what you can with what you've got". I do not think the cause of your distress, the objectification of women, is felt as deeply or as often by other women because it is not typical of the cis-women in whose circles I now move.
Quote from: sad panda on April 07, 2014, 01:19:41 PM
So, sorry if i'm being nosy here, but does it hurt more because it feels like you escaped it and you're sad for those who won't?
Or because a part of you still can't/didn't/couldn't escape it? Your expiration date.
Both probably. Women learn to view themselves from a distance. Not as a live, acting, breathing thing. I knew I had a problem when I realized I was thinking of my goals and was more concerned with how I looked up there and how old I would be than what I was doing or had accomplished. I am still shocked that I am treated like a human being, and that my words are given so much weight and actually heard - when I am freaking ugly now! Makes me really uncomfortable and I don't know how to deal with it.
Quote from: provizora3 on April 07, 2014, 01:41:18 PM
Quote from: FA on April 07, 2014, 01:08:58 PM
I guess what I'd say is it feels like being a plant. A decoration. That blooms for a short time. And then withers and is useless. I was only ever a young woman, but even the youngest of women know the threat of this. The expiration date feeling.
And I will counter you by saying that not every woman feels that way. I know many women my own age (40s/50s) who are definitely past the teen/20/30 beauty stage and they still have confidence in themselves and their appearance. One trick they can do is to use their self-confidence to pull men. Men are attracted to powerful, self-assured women even if those women are not classically beautiful. Many a bloke will say that she "has something about her, 'cause she ain't good looking, but even so"
Many, perhaps even most women, get over the "beauty" thing. As they say "You do what you can with what you've got". I do not think the cause of your distress, the objectification of women, is felt as deeply or as often by other women because it is not typical of the cis-women in whose circles I now move.
Well, like I said, I was only ever a young woman. So I don't know what it is to be an older woman. I just know the threat of it is felt deeply.
And like I said, this isn't something anyone talks about. So it's not like women are just going to bring this up in conversation. And I doubt most cis women (except maybe some serious feminists) actively think about this at all. I didn't until now. It was just the way things are. But we don't need people talking about it as proof. The beauty and anti-aging industries, the cosmetic surgeons doing excellent business, the little girls with eating disorders, the billboards, Victoria's Secret, all the 40 year old men leaving their wives for the hot young secretaries - this is our proof that this is a real thing. It's everywhere. And women grow up feeling it.
Quote from: sad panda on April 07, 2014, 12:27:06 PM
Yeah but how many of them have female friends they don't see as a potential source of sex and actually care about?
Hi Panda,
There are jerks, in all races, religions, sexual orientations, genders, etc. These people stand out in our memories because they are so obnoxious. Unfortunately people generalize entire groups based on the actions of the jerks.
I know many men who have true female friends and don't think of them as a potential source of sex and actually care about them.
One thing that has really encouraged me lately is all the positive comments transitioning people on this board have made about their family member, friends and co-workers accepting them. Sure there's still lots of negative stuff but I never imagined how many caring and kind people were out there.
Where am I going with this? I don't know except that I would suggest for every jerk that has made your life miserable, there seems to be many good people too.
Lots of love,
Paige :)
Quote from: provizora3 on April 07, 2014, 01:41:18 PM
Men are attracted to powerful, self-assured women even if those women are not classically beautiful. Many a bloke will say that she "has something about her, 'cause she ain't good looking, but even so"
When did this happen? Do you know what the Salem Witch Trials were about. They were about land inheritance. All of, or most of, the accused witches had inherited or were set to inherit land. If they didn't do what was asked and tithe it to the church, they were a witch. And hung. Or thrown in the water with a boulder tied to them because if they floated they were a witch. if they didn't they weren't. But, of course, were dead.
Little has changed. You show me one man who would prefer a homely, but powerful woman over a demure, voluptuous pretty one. Why do you think Hillary Clinton was hated so much. cause she was smart and powerful. My mom is still mad at me for voting for Obama over her. Women are treated a lot better today then before the women's movement but to act like women aren't objectified in a way men simply aren't is a falsehood. And most women do feel distress when treated like or looked upon as an object. That's why there's this whole "End Bossy" campaign. There is a reason this campaign is happening. And it's because women are not alllowed to speak their mind without being called bossy or know it alls. My partner's (that's what he wants to call himself now) roommate talks to him all the time about me and says I'm this superficial know it all bitch. Why? Cause I talk about the economy with him and have the gall to sopeak intelligently. She is basically a woman who would love to go back to the 50s. She is a crazy person.
In fact, here is a case in point: this woman, who is 50, but looks older, though thinks she is 35, wanted to apply at a college bar. Now, there is nothing wrong with that. But james and I talked about it and think she's nuts. Who do you think this place wants working for them as a bartender? A nice, but crazy lady (she's nice to everyone but me cause I think she is in love with my man and she better back the eff off) or a, i don't know, 20-something petite girl with big boobs and a nice ass. We both know who they want. Now, woudl the same thing apply to a man in say a outside sales job. NO WAY.
Maybe things are different where you are from. I do not know.
Quote from: FA on April 07, 2014, 01:42:42 PM
Both probably. Women learn to view themselves from a distance. Not as a live, acting, breathing thing. I knew I had a problem when I realized I was thinking of my goals and was more concerned with how I looked up there and how old I would be than what I was doing or had accomplished. I am still shocked that I am treated like a human being, and that my words are given so much weight and actually heard - when I am freaking ugly now! Makes me really uncomfortable and I don't know how to deal with it.
Mmmh yeah, this is one thing I actually did notice changing. I used to stress so much over what I would be in the future, if i would ever have a degree or get a job, if I would ever feel independent or anything. After transition I mostly stopped thinking about that, because I accepted that it is not expected of me now. My first and current job was a fake job created to give me an allowance, and sometimes they think of something for me to help them with. It's a weird feeling and not really a good one. When my family asks about the job, bc as a boy they were always like, so are you gonna get a job soon?? I don't have the heart to tell them, no I'm actually a girl now, you don't get it, I'm not expected to do anything, I'm arm candy.
So I never mean to sound like I don't know what you are talking about. it's just really weird isn't it. :S
Quote from: Joanna Dark on April 07, 2014, 01:33:36 PM
Prostitutes around here don't dress the way they do on TV. Maybe they don't anywhere. I have no idea. I only know how it is Philly.
I don't think they do anywhere (in Hollywood maybe). I got this all the time walking and I was normally just dressed in men's flannels. One reason I was glad to get a car. :P
Quote from: FA on April 07, 2014, 01:52:30 PM
Well, like I said, I was only ever a young woman. So I don't know what it is to be an older woman. I just know the threat of it is felt deeply.
And like I said, this isn't something anyone talks about. So it's not like women are just going to bring this up in conversation.
Well, I was never a young woman, but I know that middle aged women talk about it because I have been there when they did.
Quote from: Joanna Dark on April 07, 2014, 01:58:48 PM
Maybe things are different where you are from. I do not know.
Maybe they are. Lucky me.
Quote from: provizora3 on April 07, 2014, 02:12:51 PM
Quote from: FA on April 07, 2014, 01:52:30 PM
Well, like I said, I was only ever a young woman. So I don't know what it is to be an older woman. I just know the threat of it is felt deeply.
And like I said, this isn't something anyone talks about. So it's not like women are just going to bring this up in conversation.
Well, I was never a young woman, but I know that middle aged women talk about it because I have been there when they did.
Really? What did they say?
Quote from: Paige on April 07, 2014, 01:53:08 PM
Hi Panda,
There are jerks, in all races, religions, sexual orientations, genders, etc. These people stand out in our memories because they are so obnoxious. Unfortunately people generalize entire groups based on the actions of the jerks.
I know many men who have true female friends and don't think of them as a potential source of sex and actually care about them.
One thing that has really encouraged me lately is all the positive comments transitioning people on this board have made about their family member, friends and co-workers accepting them. Sure there's still lots of negative stuff but I never imagined how many caring and kind people were out there.
Where am I going with this? I don't know except that I would suggest for every jerk that has made your life miserable, there seems to be many good people too.
Lots of love,
Paige :)
I don't know, I don't talk to many guys since I am kind of afraid of men for the most part but when I do I always feel this uncomfortable attention from them that obviously isn't about who I am or whatever we're talking about. Otherwise they don't seem to give me the time of day.
Quote from: FA on April 07, 2014, 02:10:15 PM
I don't think they do anywhere (in Hollywood maybe). I got this all the time walking and I was normally just dressed in men's flannels. One reason I was glad to get a car. :P
Well, that's reassuring in a way. Not that it's good, but I felt like what the hell am I doing wrong that all the sudden these guys feel like they can ask me to suck their dick for cash. They obviously say "are you working?" But they might as well have said that. I basically passed out the gate and neve had a single problem, but something has changed in the last month or so where guys feel the need to stare at me, ask me if I need anything, pay for me, whatever. I was at a bar last week and lost some of my money cause im an airhead, and this guy jumped up and offered to pay for me. It's just very weird. Like I've been talking for the last month or so how I feel like i;ve been thrown into the deep end. And I know this is like the trans woman dream or something to not pass as male and always look female, but it's just so much. I'm just not used to this level of attention of the kind where people are both nice to me and want something.
Quote from: sad panda on April 07, 2014, 02:24:18 PM
I don't know, I don't talk to many guys since I am kind of afraid of men for the most part but when I do I always feel this uncomfortable attention from them that obviously isn't about who I am or whatever we're talking about. Otherwise they don't seem to give me the time of day.
Most times when I'm with James and he always has some guy he manages to befriend (he is just a very outgoing person) and they never say word one to me. I feel like they think I'm his property or something. Once, he was talking to someone and the guy started talking about me like i wasn't there. So who's this girl? She you're girlfriend. What's the deal? I'm just like, uh, I'm right here. Helllo!
Quote from: FA on April 07, 2014, 11:39:21 AM
FA, I get that this is something that you are struggling with and it's clear that you have suffered from it. We've been down this avenue before in the general forums.
I hear you. Growing up in a female role is damaging. But I am confused as to what you are looking for when bringing this conversation to the MTF board.
It's not that we (or at least I) don't want to understand, but rather we (or at least I) can never completely understand because we (or at least I) haven't experienced it.
It's only natural that we would discuss this from our perspective, and that we would bring up our own struggles because it's our experience.
Just to talk I guess. I didn't mean for this thread to turn into this. Really, I didn't. I guess I just need to talk about it. Among friends. I have no female ones (in RL) and you can't talk to men about these things.
I totally understand, I think. This is something that caused me to leave male friends behind and go it alone. There is a problem with the way males view females. I got to a point with my male friends that I couldn't take it any more. why do you think even after all the supposed awareness woman still struggle to get the same pay, I'm actually kind of surprised that a lot of MTFs are so strongly defending their male conditioning as the superior half of the race. keep it up FA this forum severely lacks meaningful discussion. Also I'b like to say you can count me as a friend.
As I feel entirely feminine, and an innate woman, not by definitions outside of my self but that which defines me for me!
I am soft, and this isn't texture of embodiment but a quality of self within the realm of flowing life. Soft to the essence of emotion, as though I am vulnerable to the sharp grit of anger, deceit, and treachery.
I am fulfilled with mending the broken, nursing wounds of sorrow, giving love to darkness.
I am a flower amongst rock, tiny spark of life seeking light of life.
I am the seeker, yet not in knowledge but within hearts feel, the one who walks along the path of truth.
I am the tear streaming down the cheek for injustice and dreadful force of insecurity and guilt.
I am the mother, nursing my child with love which knows no bound.
I am a WOMAN!
Quote from: sad panda on April 07, 2014, 01:59:25 PM
Quote from: FA on April 07, 2014, 01:42:42 PM
Both probably. Women learn to view themselves from a distance. Not as a live, acting, breathing thing. I knew I had a problem when I realized I was thinking of my goals and was more concerned with how I looked up there and how old I would be than what I was doing or had accomplished. I am still shocked that I am treated like a human being, and that my words are given so much weight and actually heard - when I am freaking ugly now! Makes me really uncomfortable and I don't know how to deal with it.
Mmmh yeah, this is one thing I actually did notice changing. I used to stress so much over what I would be in the future, if i would ever have a degree or get a job, if I would ever feel independent or anything. After transition I mostly stopped thinking about that, because I accepted that it is not expected of me now. My first and current job was a fake job created to give me an allowance, and sometimes they think of something for me to help them with. It's a weird feeling and not really a good one. When my family asks about the job, bc as a boy they were always like, so are you gonna get a job soon?? I don't have the heart to tell them, no I'm actually a girl now, you don't get it, I'm not expected to do anything, I'm arm candy.
So I never mean to sound like I don't know what you are talking about. it's just really weird isn't it. :S
It is weird. I don't think most people talk about it. It's really kind of an awkward thing. The main difference I've noticed between being a man and being a woman - is that being a woman is to just 'be'. A woman just 'is'. She's valuable for being alive and this value increases or decreases with how decorative she is. She doesn't have to 'do' anything. A man is valued for what he does. Not for being alive. Not for being decorative. In some ways this is a curse, for men are seen as disposable and much is expected of them. But they get to choose in a way women don't. A woman's fate is already decided by genetics (or how long she can starve herself and how much money she has for surgeons if genetics weren't kind). She's either in the game or she's not. And ironically, many 'successful women' were not. Sure you've seen a few whales waddling up to the diploma stand as valedictorian...
A man can always keep trying to prove himself. Even if he's ugly, fat, skinny, short, etc. Because he's more than just his body. His body is just a vehicle. A woman's body
is the woman. (And no, I'm not the one that said this. Somebody famous did. I'll retrieve the quote).
So I guess this is where the feeling of unfairness really comes in. Because a man is judged mostly on what he does and not his body. And actions don't really depreciate. He can be ugly, fat, short, etc but can make up for it by
doing. Women are not afforded this option. Sure, they can 'do'. But everyone knows it's not their 'doing' that matters. Sure, I'm not saying if some woman won the Nobel or cured cancer, she wouldn't be valued. But as a general rule...
Little girls aren't stupid. And they know where their value lies. If society hasn't told them, everyone else has. 'Such a pretty girl'. Her dress, her hair, her eyes. Not her personality. Not her mind. Being too smart is actually a detriment. And sure, it's not like males never suffer for not being attractive. But they grow up in a world where their appearance is secondary. For girls, it's primary. It is the most important thing about them. And they know it.
They may receive lip service about 'it's whats on the inside that counts'. But they recognize it as bull->-bleeped-<-. Because it is bull->-bleeped-<-. It is not 'what's on the inside that counts' for girls. Those same people telling her 'it's what's on the inside that counts' are busy praising her for her hair, her dress, her thinness, cautioning her not to eat that donut, etc. Little girls are not stupid.
I guess for part of it is coming from the polar opposite and living as a guy being expected to "just do".
From childhood it's about what I can do to earn lots of money and be "successful". And in adulthood being expected to always have the solutions and always having the answers.
In therapy a couple weeks ago we discussed how I can't bring myself to work in IT any more. The reason? I'm tired of being seen by most as a tool to fix their damn computer and nothing more. This would be drilled home even further when a co-worker's idea of a "personal" question was if I used a PC or a Mac.
I'm not implying that it is the same let alone worse as being viewed as a decorative piece of piece of property.
I guess what it really boils down to is the idea of being seen as the whole package. To be seen as a competent person worthy of being desired as well. When you spend enough time look at the other side of the fence and do finally cross over, what's been lacking in our lives becomes glaringly obvious.
Quote from: FA on April 07, 2014, 02:53:28 PM
It is weird. I don't think most people talk about it. It's really kind of an awkward thing. The main difference I've noticed between being a man and being a woman - is that being a woman is to just 'be'. A woman just 'is'. She's valuable for being alive and this value increases or decreases with how decorative she is.
Yeah, I had thought about this before but never could find the right words for it, but the way you put it is
perfect.
QuoteShe doesn't have to 'do' anything. A man is valued for what he does. Not for being alive. Not for being decorative. In some ways this is a curse, for men are seen as disposable and much is expected of them. But they get to choose in a way women don't. A woman's fate is already decided by genetics (or how long she can starve herself and how much money she has for surgeons if genetics weren't kind). She's either in the game or she's not. And ironically, many 'successful women' were not. Sure you've seen a few whales waddling up to the diploma stand as valedictorian...
Yeah it's true that there are few self-made AND conventionally attractive women, whereas for men they're either unrelated or compliment each other.
QuoteA man can always keep trying to prove himself. Even if he's ugly, fat, skinny, short, etc. Because he's more than just his body. His body is just a vehicle. A woman's body is the woman. (And no, I'm not the one that said this. Somebody famous did. I'll retrieve the quote).
A while ago they were having this cheer competition here and all the girls doing that were everywhere. I remember my boyfriend seeing them and going, it's kind of sad, a lot of them aren't even attractive but they're just desperately trying to make themselves look as feminine as possible.
And i thought, yeah they are, obviously they're trying to not look like individuals with individual lives and personalities. They're cheerleaders.... But I mean, I'm guilty too. Because i don't want to look like me, I don't feel like that's right, i feel like i am supposed to look like every other girl in ads or whatever. A thing. My own boyfriend was saying he thought it wasn't appealing for them to wear all that excessive makeup and stuff but actually I was jealous of them. Because basically they were more viable than me and yeah, have more time.
QuoteSo I guess this is where the feeling of unfairness really comes in. Because a man is judged mostly on what he does and not his body. And actions don't really depreciate. He can be ugly, fat, short, etc but can make up for it by doing. Women are not afforded this option. Sure, they can 'do'. But everyone knows it's not their 'doing' that matters. Sure, I'm not saying if some woman won the Nobel or cured cancer, she wouldn't be valued. But as a general rule...
Little girls aren't stupid. And they know where their value lies. If society hasn't told them, everyone else has. 'Such a pretty girl'. Her dress, her hair, her eyes. Not her personality. Not her mind. Being too smart is actually a detriment. And sure, it's not like males never suffer for not being attractive. But they grow up in a world where their appearance is secondary. For girls, it's primary. It is the most important thing about them. And they know it.
They may receive lip service about 'it's whats on the inside that counts'. But they recognize it as bull->-bleeped-<-. Because it is bull->-bleeped-<-. It is not 'what's on the inside that counts' for girls. Those same people telling her 'it's what's on the inside that counts' are busy praising her for her hair, her dress, her thinness, cautioning her not to eat that donut, etc. Little girls are not stupid.
And then when you somehow get complimented on or noticed for anything else it doesn't feel good anyway because you know it doesn't mean anything to people and it's hard to feel like it means anything yourself.
Talk about walking on eggshells!
I've been following the thread, and with every additional post, I seem to relate less and less to some of the perspectives.
I am a woman. I live as a woman. I'm treated as a woman. But be darned if my value is decided by the rest of the world.
I'm very self confident, strong, assertive and self assured woman. These are qualities I earned, and gave myself. I didn't have them while living as a man. No, they are qualities that I earned as I transitioned. And now this innately shows in the way I interact with the world.
I'm not very pretty, though I am tall and slim. For that I get some attention from guys ( sexual ) and some attention from girls ( criticism or jealousy depending ). That's just par for the course and something I even do myself, at least to women. I'm always looking at women, for their fashion, style, and to compare myself to them. Men however, I totally ignore them. One plus of not being attracted to guys :).
So with my worth decided by myself, I seem to have something that some of you may be missing. That elusive there's something about her quality mentioned before maybe?
@sad panda - Perhaps it would be very different for me if I were pretty like you. Maybe my worth would have been my appearance. I just don't know because that will never be my reality. And I'm sorry that you've not found peace or what you need in either gender roles. I hope you find the answers you need soon. xx
@FA - From a different perspective, I saw the way women were objectified by men. I hated it with the core of my being. Mostly because I was the very thing men were objectifying. But while that was happening, I also noticed the difference in women that were self confident and women that were insecure. God, I admired the self confident women! No man could alter their worth! They owned themselves and looked so secure in themselves. Anyway, I still struggle to understand your perspective. Yes, I think men do have life easier then women. It's just the way the world seems to work. But I don't see that generalisation as anything defining for each gender role. Just because the world thinks one way, doesn't make it so.
Quote from: SammyRose on April 07, 2014, 05:58:52 PM
Talk about walking on eggshells!
I've been following the thread, and with every additional post, I seem to relate less and less to some of the perspectives.
I am a woman. I live as a woman. I'm treated as a woman. But be darned if my value is decided by the rest of the world.
I'm very self confident, strong, assertive and self assured woman. These are qualities I earned, and gave myself. I didn't have them while living as a man. No, they are qualities that I earned as I transitioned. And now this innately shows in the way I interact with the world.
I'm not very pretty, though I am tall and slim. For that I get some attention from guys ( sexual ) and some attention from girls ( criticism or jealousy depending ). That's just par for the course and something I even do myself, at least to women. I'm always looking at women, for their fashion, style, and to compare myself to them. Men however, I totally ignore them. One plus of not being attracted to guys :).
So with my worth decided by myself, I seem to have something that some of you may be missing. That elusive there's something about her quality mentioned before maybe?
@sad panda - Perhaps it would be very different for me if I were pretty like you. Maybe my worth would have been my appearance. I just don't know because that will never be my reality. And I'm sorry that you've not found peace or what you need in either gender roles. I hope you find the answers you need soon. xx
@FA - From a different perspective, I saw the way women were objectified by men. I hated it with the core of my being. Mostly because I was the very thing men were objectifying. But while that was happening, I also noticed the difference in women that were self confident and women that were insecure. God, I admired the self confident women! No man could alter their worth! They owned themselves and looked so secure in themselves. Anyway, I still struggle to understand your perspective. Yes, I think men do have life easier then women. It's just the way the world seems to work. But I don't see that generalisation as anything defining for each gender role. Just because the world thinks one way, doesn't make it so.
Well, I'm not really talking about how the woman views herself, but how the world views her. And the impact that has on young girls. The truly confident and secure cis woman is rare. And yes, it does seem to be the females deemed conventionally attractive who suffer most. Maybe the others grow up not having their looks shoved down their throat every day. As a teen and young woman, I heard every day from everyone - complete strangers - about my face and tits. It's hard not to develop a complex from that. And then to transition into a man - well, most cis girls don't have that perspective. I really started to see things and realize a lot of my current issues stem from this.
I have horrible social anxiety. And some of it probably is from not being able to walk down the street without being stared at. Having my body constantly commented on. Being a man and seen as a full being by people doesn't compute for me. I was used to being a walking pair of tits. The world looks so different now. I feel
seen in a way I never was. It's nice, but really unsettling. And has really brung home for me that I'm seen as a person now, a thing before.
Quote from: FA on April 07, 2014, 06:58:36 PM
Well, I'm not really talking about how the woman views herself, but how the world views her. And the impact that has on young girls. The truly confident and secure cis woman is rare. And yes, it does seem to be the females deemed conventionally attractive who suffer most. Maybe the others grow up not having their looks shoved down their throat every day. As a teen and young woman, I heard every day from everyone - complete strangers - about my face and tits. It's hard not to develop a complex from that. And then to transition into a man - well, most cis girls don't have that perspective. I really started to see things and realize a lot of my current issues stem from this.
I have horrible social anxiety. And some of it probably is from not being able to walk down the street without being stared at. Having my body constantly commented on. Being a man and seen as a full being by people doesn't compute for me. I was used to being a walking pair of tits. The world looks so different now. I feel seen in a way I never was. It's nice, but really unsettling. And has really brung home for me that I'm seen as a person now, a thing before.
it's nice to have an honest perspective from the other side of the river.
Quote from: FA on April 07, 2014, 02:53:28 PM
The main difference I've noticed between being a man and being a woman - is that being a woman is to just 'be'. A woman just 'is'. She's valuable for being alive and this value increases or decreases with how decorative she is. She doesn't have to 'do' anything. A man is valued for what he does. Not for being alive. Not for being decorative. In some ways this is a curse, for men are seen as disposable and much is expected of them. But they get to choose in a way women don't. A woman's fate is already decided by genetics (or how long she can starve herself and how much money she has for surgeons if genetics weren't kind).
That view of women is so distorted that it verges on being misogynistic.
I know women who are doctors, lawyers, teachers, nurses, engineers and businesswomen. They are judged on their ability
just like men are. Their beauty (or lack of it) is not the issue.
I mix with businesswomen in their 40s and 50s who run their own businesses and they take no static from men or younger, more beautiful women. Yes they get comments from men but most men recognise that these women are capable and smart and they give them respect as a result. The images of how women are shown in the media annoy many of these women and they have learned to ignore it. Men who take the wrong sort of interest usually get told fairly sharply that such behaviour is not acceptable.
The other day I was treated by a nurse specialist who knew her stuff. I will bet that none of her job assessments and promotion interviews had a box marked "Is she pretty - tick if yes".
My niece is a very competent prosecutor who works prosecuting those accused of sex offences. She has risen quickly because of her talent and ability, not her looks.
Some of these women are plain. Some are beautiful. One is stunning. It makes no difference because they are all successful at what they do. I have seen other women, some plain, some beautiful and some stunners and they are at the bottom of the heap and treated the cr*p.
So beauty is not a differentiator - you can be beautiful and successful or beautiful and a flop. Likewise you can be ugly and successful or ugly and a flop. On the other hand, education, self-belief and self-confidence ARE differentiators. Someone who believes in themselves and sets out to educate themselves and seizes opportunities will do well whether she is beautiful or not.
There are millions upon millions of women whose success and respect does NOT rely on beauty and to make beauty the sole determination of a women's worth is downright insulting. Women are as capable as men and many of them prove it day in and day out, over and over again. In all walks of life there are women showing that competence counts more than beauty.
To be sure, the beauty industry tries very hard to push perfection as the norm and it does affect a lot of females, but not most of them. Women generally do like to look nice and so are prone to this but the beauty industry is now starting the same assault on
men and male grooming products are being pushed along with the message that you must look right to be a man. Cosmetic surgeries for men are on the increase too so this malaise does not affect just women. It is a money-making machine working on both sexes.
Society has changed enormously in the last 100 years and in some places more than others, but the change is still happening and one of the drivers of the change is WOMEN and their realisation that they can determine their own destiny and that they do not have to accept other people's judgement of them. This social movement has produced huge benefits for humanity and will make more differences as misogynistic and paternalistic societies and attitudes are torn down.
A woman is more than her beauty. Much, much more.
Quote from: FA on April 07, 2014, 06:58:36 PM
Well, I'm not really talking about how the woman views herself, but how the world views her. And the impact that has on young girls. The truly confident and secure cis woman is rare. And yes, it does seem to be the females deemed conventionally attractive who suffer most. Maybe the others grow up not having their looks shoved down their throat every day. As a teen and young woman, I heard every day from everyone - complete strangers - about my face and tits. It's hard not to develop a complex from that. And then to transition into a man - well, most cis girls don't have that perspective. I really started to see things and realize a lot of my current issues stem from this.
I have horrible social anxiety. And some of it probably is from not being able to walk down the street without being stared at. Having my body constantly commented on. Being a man and seen as a full being by people doesn't compute for me. I was used to being a walking pair of tits. The world looks so different now. I feel seen in a way I never was. It's nice, but really unsettling. And has really brung home for me that I'm seen as a person now, a thing before.
It's interesting being put in this world that I knew existed, but was never a part of for much of my life.
Something interesting is happening for me at the moment. I've applied for a position with a company that I would be perfect for. However it's in a field largely dominated by men. The same field I had worked in as a male. Since applying, I've been told numerous times how advantageous it is to be a woman in this field. A woman in a male dominated field is apparently very valuable. I'm more than happy to use my gender to my advantage, although I don't understand what makes me more valuable. Does it matter that I'm more valuable in this situation? No, not really.
But as you say, when I walk down the street, I'm just long legs, boobs and maybe worth a momentary thought. At least that's the way most men act towards me. Does it matter that I'm less valuable in this situation? No, not really. I take the good with the bad :).
I'm not denying the impact of society on young girls. It's horrendous! It does do permanent damage. I see the damage in my cis friends. Also a trap that I, ( and I suspect ) many other transwomen don't get the chance to fall into. We bare another kind of damage entirely.
A man ( or woman for that matter ) can value me however they want. But how does that really effect me? I'm not sure it does.
Quote from: provizora3 on April 07, 2014, 07:19:50 PM
Quote from: FA on April 07, 2014, 02:53:28 PM
The main difference I've noticed between being a man and being a woman - is that being a woman is to just 'be'. A woman just 'is'. She's valuable for being alive and this value increases or decreases with how decorative she is. She doesn't have to 'do' anything. A man is valued for what he does. Not for being alive. Not for being decorative. In some ways this is a curse, for men are seen as disposable and much is expected of them. But they get to choose in a way women don't. A woman's fate is already decided by genetics (or how long she can starve herself and how much money she has for surgeons if genetics weren't kind).
That view of women is so distorted that it verges on being misogynistic.
I know women who are doctors, lawyers, teachers, nurses, engineers and businesswomen. They are judged on their ability just like men are. Their beauty (or lack of it) is not the issue.
I mix with businesswomen in their 40s and 50s who run their own businesses and they take no static from men or younger, more beautiful women. Yes they get comments from men but most men recognise that these women are capable and smart and they give them respect as a result. The images of how women are shown in the media annoy many of these women and they have learned to ignore it. Men who take the wrong sort of interest usually get told fairly sharply that such behaviour is not acceptable.
The other day I was treated by a nurse specialist who knew her stuff. I will bet that none of her job assessments and promotion interviews had a box marked "Is she pretty - tick if yes".
My niece is a very competent prosecutor who works prosecuting those accused of sex offences. She has risen quickly because of her talent and ability, not her looks.
Some of these women are plain. Some are beautiful. One is stunning. It makes no difference because they are all successful at what they do. I have seen other women, some plain, some beautiful and some stunners and they are at the bottom of the heap and treated the cr*p.
So beauty is not a differentiator - you can be beautiful and successful or beautiful and a flop. Likewise you can be ugly and successful or ugly and a flop. On the other hand, education, self-belief and self-confidence ARE differentiators. Someone who believes in themselves and sets out to educate themselves and seizes opportunities will do well whether she is beautiful or not.
There are millions upon millions of women whose success and respect does NOT rely on beauty and to make beauty the sole determination of a women's worth is downright insulting. Women are as capable as men and many of them prove it day in and day out, over and over again. In all walks of life there are women showing that competence counts more than beauty.
To be sure, the beauty industry tries very hard to push perfection as the norm and it does affect a lot of females, but not most of them. Women generally do like to look nice and so are prone to this but the beauty industry is now starting the same assault on men and male grooming products are being pushed along with the message that you must look right to be a man. Cosmetic surgeries for men are on the increase too so this malaise does not affect just women. It is a money-making machine working on both sexes.
Society has changed enormously in the last 100 years and in some places more than others, but the change is still happening and one of the drivers of the change is WOMEN and their realisation that they can determine their own destiny and that they do not have to accept other people's judgement of them. This social movement has produced huge benefits for humanity and will make more differences as misogynistic and paternalistic societies and attitudes are torn down.
A woman is more than her beauty. Much, much more.
This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. The exception proves the rule. And being successful in other areas doesn't shield women from this. I never said there weren't successful women. I never said there weren't happy women. What I am saying is that women are valued for their looks first, everything second. I'm honestly surprised that saying this is so controversial. I guess it goes back to what I was saying - we all want to believe in equality and fairness. But women are not seen the same as men. Those same women you're talking about probably make less than their male counterparts. They probably have had facelifts. They probably are dieting. Because they are still judged as a whole on something men are not.
Quote from: SammyRose on April 07, 2014, 07:29:24 PM
Something interesting is happening for me at the moment. I've applied for a position with a company that I would be perfect for. However it's in a field largely dominated by men. The same field I had worked in as a male. Since applying, I've been told numerous times how advantageous it is to be a woman in this field. A woman in a male dominated field is apparently very valuable. I'm more than happy to use my gender to my advantage, although I don't understand what makes me more valuable. Does it matter that I'm more valuable in this situation? No, not really.
That's probably hiring quotas, basically it's because of being female and only that, nothing to do with *who* is applying, they just want or need to be able to say a certain number of women work there.
I know my experiences aren't as valid in this conversation because they're not the majority's experience, though I'll share anyway.
Until I made an effort to challenge my own views, I always perceived men as machines. Active objects, but objects nonetheless. I've always intrinsically seen women as real human beings, perhaps in part because I sense their expressed emotions are more reflective of their inner world. Women seem to be a complete circle, men a malformed circle.
I concur that the world as a whole doesn't see it this way. I know women are objectified and reduced; I've lived as one all of my 20's.
With that said, I have a theory. I wonder, FA, if part of the way we interpret the world's perception of men and women is informed by our own instincts. Perhaps humans tend to view the opposite gender as objects because they can't truly understand them (and also because of mate selection). And men, historically being the empowered gender, have created the prevailing environment of women being objects. Growing up, you were male on the inside, which (in tandem with society's views), may have led you to seeing men more as human beings than women. When directed at yourself because of your outward sex, I can see how this would have been additionally harmful.
Then again, I may have no idea what I'm talking about. Happens quite often. :P
Quote from: FA on April 07, 2014, 07:31:53 PM
That view of women is so distorted that it verges on being misogynistic.
I know women who are doctors, lawyers, teachers, nurses, engineers and businesswomen. They are judged on their ability just like men are. Their beauty (or lack of it) is not the issue.
I mix with businesswomen in their 40s and 50s who run their own businesses and they take no static from men or younger, more beautiful women. Yes they get comments from men but most men recognise that these women are capable and smart and they give them respect as a result. The images of how women are shown in the media annoy many of these women and they have learned to ignore it. Men who take the wrong sort of interest usually get told fairly sharply that such behaviour is not acceptable.
The other day I was treated by a nurse specialist who knew her stuff. I will bet that none of her job assessments and promotion interviews had a box marked "Is she pretty - tick if yes".
My niece is a very competent prosecutor who works prosecuting those accused of sex offences. She has risen quickly because of her talent and ability, not her looks.
Some of these women are plain. Some are beautiful. One is stunning. It makes no difference because they are all successful at what they do. I have seen other women, some plain, some beautiful and some stunners and they are at the bottom of the heap and treated the cr*p.
So beauty is not a differentiator - you can be beautiful and successful or beautiful and a flop. Likewise you can be ugly and successful or ugly and a flop. On the other hand, education, self-belief and self-confidence ARE differentiators. Someone who believes in themselves and sets out to educate themselves and seizes opportunities will do well whether she is beautiful or not.
There are millions upon millions of women whose success and respect does NOT rely on beauty and to make beauty the sole determination of a women's worth is downright insulting. Women are as capable as men and many of them prove it day in and day out, over and over again. In all walks of life there are women showing that competence counts more than beauty.
To be sure, the beauty industry tries very hard to push perfection as the norm and it does affect a lot of females, but not most of them. Women generally do like to look nice and so are prone to this but the beauty industry is now starting the same assault on men and male grooming products are being pushed along with the message that you must look right to be a man. Cosmetic surgeries for men are on the increase too so this malaise does not affect just women. It is a money-making machine working on both sexes.
Society has changed enormously in the last 100 years and in some places more than others, but the change is still happening and one of the drivers of the change is WOMEN and their realisation that they can determine their own destiny and that they do not have to accept other people's judgement of them. This social movement has produced huge benefits for humanity and will make more differences as misogynistic and paternalistic societies and attitudes are torn down.
A woman is more than her beauty. Much, much more.
This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. The exception proves the rule. And being successful in other areas doesn't shield women from this. I never said there weren't successful women. I never said there weren't happy women. What I am saying is that women are valued for their looks first, everything second. I'm honestly surprised that saying this is so controversial. I guess it goes back to what I was saying - we all want to believe in equality and fairness. But women are not seen the same as men. Those same women you're talking about probably make less than their male counterparts. They probably have had facelifts. They probably are dieting. Because they are still judged as a whole on something men are not.
a deeply ingrained belief system is hard to view objectively to the point at which you deny having that system. A belief system that is orchestrated from birth. Why is it so hard for parents to accept their transgender children , because of the value society puts on things . A parent believes they're in the right to deny a child's true gender. I think your getting all this flack because you have a perspective from being a birth child and see things because you lived it.
Quote from: provizora3 on April 07, 2014, 07:19:50 PM
To be sure, the beauty industry tries very hard to push perfection as the norm and it does affect a lot of females, but not most of them. Women generally do like to look nice and so are prone to this but the beauty industry is now starting the same assault on men and male grooming products are being pushed along with the message that you must look right to be a man. Cosmetic surgeries for men are on the increase too so this malaise does not affect just women. It is a money-making machine working on both sexes.
That's interesting about men's grooming. Because men generally look like crap (I'm being facetious). I know because my boyfriend and I walk around and people watch and talk about how they are dressed and other stuff. But, don't take my word for it, take FashInvest's word, a beauty and finance site. They made it just for me! Anyhoo, in 2014 men's grooming products will make $26 billion in profits. Sounds big, right? Well, women's is estimated at almost $500 billion, yup half a trillion, annually. That's 20 times as much. Also, take into account a large portion of that $26 billion prolly has to do with the outrageous cost of razors. I don't know.
I come from a different perspective because I have never worked in the industries most trans women work for. I worked in the...wait for it...women's magazine industry as as...wait for it...parenting/fashion and beauty editor! Before that I went to college and most of my closest friends have been women, specifically there, lesbian womyn and feminists. Excpet for right now where the most awesome coolest person I know is a man. And he's super hot so I'm just as guilty if not more so of this focus on beauty as anyone. But, just like FA is saying, he is basically the only person who treats me as a human being and cares about my feelings and listens to my thoughts and sticks up for me.
I don't think FA pointing out that in our society a womans worth is just her beauty is sexist, its just his observation, he's not saying it's right. Even tho I think he exaggerates a teensy bit here and there I agree with a lot of what he's saying. I keep feeling lately when I don't feel pretty I feel worthless, and when I do feel pretty it's all I'm worth, really.
It's like when guys have bad days, like everybody does occasionally, it doesn't matter. They're just lovably messy. But when girls do they become lazy, slobs, trash redneck etc. I can't even where my comfort hoodie that my gramma gave me when I was 12 cuz it's ratty and it's like I mean nothing to the world with it on. And my hir, omg. Some days its hard to find a good style at my current length and I literally don't wana leave the house or even my room. I won't even let my family see me without foundation cuz I looked washed out, I hide my face when I'm too lazy to put it on cuz I think I look tired and plain and 10 year old boyish without it, even though I still pass, regardless. I think most women are simultaneously made to feel worthless without makeup but guilty for being so obssessed with it, it's a very objectifying culture.
As for what it means to BE a woman, don't know, don't care. I'm just like, whatever, who cares? If identifying as one and functioning as one socially and looking like one and soinding like one and acting like one and all that doesn't make me one then I don't really need to be one, cuz that's all I need,and I've got that. So who cares. Maybe I amm just a sad little boy but I do a good job of fooling people otherwise. F it, you don't live long enough to care about this crap. Just be whatever, be a man be woman be hybrid be nothing, just f'ing breath, eat, sleep, have sex have fun and forget the rest, cuz b*tchh you gonna die anyway.
Quote from: Abbyxo on April 07, 2014, 08:21:37 PM
just f'ing breath, eat, sleep, have sex have fun and forget the rest, cuz b*tchh you gonna die anyway.
Someone's in a relaxed mood today ;)
Quote from: Inanna on April 07, 2014, 07:47:19 PM
I know my experiences aren't as valid in this conversation because they're not the majority's experience, though I'll share anyway.
Until I made an effort to challenge my own views, I always perceived men as machines. Active objects, but objects nonetheless. I've always intrinsically seen women as real human beings, perhaps in part because I sense their expressed emotions are more reflective of their inner world. Women seem to be a complete circle, men a malformed circle.
I concur that the world as a whole doesn't see it this way. I know women are objectified and reduced; I've lived as one all of my 20's.
With that said, I have a theory. I wonder, FA, if part of the way we interpret the world's perception of men and women is informed by our own instincts. Perhaps humans tend to view the opposite gender as objects because they can't truly understand them (and also because of mate selection). And men, historically being the empowered gender, have created the prevailing environment of women being objects. Growing up, you were male on the inside, which (in tandem with society's views), may have led you to seeing men more as human beings than women. When directed at yourself because of your outward sex, I can see how this would have been additionally harmful.
Then again, I may have no idea what I'm talking about. Happens quite often. :P
That's certainly an interesting point. It may be true. It probably does feel different to me than it does women - cis and trans.
I know I'm saying things in extreme and harsh terms - like feeling like a plant. But that's because it's so hard to describe this feeling, this way of being in the world. Sometimes you just need to shout something to explain it. I get mad at myself for always ending up here - talking about this. When I try to talk about this, I often end up drinking. I've been actively trying to fix myself, help myself, examine what's wrong. And this - whatever it is that I keep talking about is a large part of it.
And I come here - to the only safe space I know to try to expel this poison. But people always seem to want to argue about this, and no doubt my way of speaking about it in such harsh and stark terms is to blame. But that's because I'm here trying to throw up. Like charcoal in the ER. Trying to throw up this poison so I can live.
I certainly never mean to hurt or upset anyone. I just need to throw up. And throwing up is never pretty. Maybe if I throw all this up enough, I will get better. Heal.
I'm going to leave this thread for now because I am feeling unwell and need to try to sleep. But I appreciate all of you for talking with me and will come back to address replies. I just ask that you please try to understand what this is for me.
Quote from: FA on April 07, 2014, 07:31:53 PM
This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. The exception proves the rule. And being successful in other areas doesn't shield women from this. I never said there weren't successful women. I never said there weren't happy women. What I am saying is that women are valued for their looks first, everything second. I'm honestly surprised that saying this is so controversial. I guess it goes back to what I was saying - we all want to believe in equality and fairness. But women are not seen the same as men. Those same women you're talking about probably make less than their male counterparts. They probably have had facelifts. They probably are dieting. Because they are still judged as a whole on something men are not.
No credible scientist would claim an exception ever proves a rule. To say an exception proves a rule is again, fallacious. It is taking someone's evidence to the contrary to bolster your entirely different opinion. That can prevent this thread from being a conversation, if it does not matter to you what anyone says to the contrary, as it just "Proves" your point.
You say women are valued for their looks first and everything else second. And then you wonder why what you say is controversial, in a forum full of many women who value women for everything else first, and looks second. Also, you say this in a room full of many women who struggle daily, not to look beautiful but simply to look female.
Then you throw a few straw men into the mix by assuming these women, presented to you as examples, are most likely underpaid, face-lifted, anorexics.
As I understand it, the income inequality has less and less to do with getting equal pay for equal work, and more to do with the salary offered at jobs women tend to do as compared to jobs that men tend to do. There are also, more single mothers than single fathers, and raising a family alone can interfere with career goals, thus increasing the odds of single mothers living at or near poverty. There is a discrepancy in pay, but it has more nuance than just assuming the man working beside me makes more just for being a man.
The assumptions that these women have probably had facelifts and are probably on diets, are the types of comments that leave me surprised when you wonder out loud why this thread is SO controversial. Why? Because those assumptions seem to shed light on your narrow view of women, rather than society's.
I hope that clears some things up for you FA, since it seems you want input from us in spite of your firmly rooted opinions.
I do love your approach to topics FA, as we don't see this type of conversation too often in this forum. I don't have hurt feelings. :)
Quote from: SammyRose on April 07, 2014, 08:27:25 PM
Someone's in a relaxed mood today ;)
I hada lil to drink I ain't even gonna lie. I can't handle alcohol tho xD
Quote from: Tori on April 07, 2014, 08:48:48 PM
As I understand it, the income inequality has less and less to do with getting equal pay for equal work, and more to do with the salary offered at jobs women tend to do as compared to jobs that men tend to do.
what do you mean by this: because it could mean that somehow society deems what men want to accomplish as more worthy than the things women want to do? Example: why are daycare teachers paid so poorly? But who runs society. Oh yeah, men.
I actually don't think this is controversial at all and that it was pretty common knowledge.
FA, I'm sorry that this is something that you need to deal with, but I'm glad you have an audience.
We all have scars to bare. Cis or trans. Man or woman. Some more than others.
I'd like to share, my huge scar is all of those missing years, the years I didn't live as the girl I am. The missing childhood and teenage years. It is and forever will be my biggest scar and hangup. It's something that I have no way to heal or fix however much I want to deal with it. All I can do is live with the gaping proverbial scar across my back, and hope that over time it fades or recedes a little.
Yes Joanna,
I aknowledge a discrepancy in pay, I am just pointing out that it has more to do with salaries for "Women's work" as compared to "Men's work"... as well as the fact that many single mothers have to take part time or entry level jobs.
It is still a discrepancy. It is still an issue.
Women making less for doing the same job as men, is less common than it was not too long ago.
Please , what I'm going to say is just opinion , please ignore if you don't agree. I mean no harm and have no intention of getting into a long heated debate. I just voicing my particular non provocative understanding of this debate. This is a reality of life in this culture about how woman are to be perceived. woman do make less than men for the same job. maybe it's a whole lot better than it use to be but it's an undeniable reality. It wasn't too long ago that a prestigious medical university was scrutinized because a gifted female surgeon quit the faculty and hospital because she was trashed by her male colleagues just because she was a woman. She quit to expose the problem and took her job back, but why did she have to do that in the first place. To deny this is not a serious issue in our society is ludicrous . Yea, maybe as FA admits he goes over board to get the point across but some times it needs to be done that way because the problem is so interwoven into societies value system. There are vast amounts of documentation of unequal pay. As far as a woman's looks affect their careers just turn to the movie industry. there are a few woman that still have careers after the features aren't as plump as they were when they were thirty ,but they are few and far between. I'm just giving an opinion and not trying to cause the site to crash. sorry for the rant. also how many " unattractive " woman are legends in the sex industry. Also if I'm not viewing the argument properly just ignore this. It's even worse in the MTF transgender family. some say if your not good looking enough you don't belong in the family. this is basically the same concept. Or If you don't "pass" don't bother. sorry
As for the movie industry, sadly, looks matter for women and men. People WATCH movies, so studios go to great lengths to insure the audience likes what they see.
Male stars tend to make more than female stars... also, male driven movies generally fare better at the box office so it may not be sexism but rather the bottom line.
This says anything better than I can:
You know you turn me on
Eyes so white and legs so long
But don't try to talk to me
I won't listen to your lies
You're just an object in my eyes
You're just an object in my eyes
Sophisticated smile
You seduce in such fine style
But don't try to fool me
'cause I can see through your disguise
You're just an object in my eyes
You're just an object in my eyes
But I don't mind
I just don't care
I've got no objection
To you touching me there
Object object
Object object
Object object
Object object
You know just what to do
Lick your lips
And I want you
But don't try to hold me
'cause I don't want any ties
You're just an object in my eyes
You're just an object in my eyes
But I don't mind
I just don't care
I've got no objections
To you touching me there
You're just an object object
Object object
You're just an object
Yes, I'm so lame I reply to my own posts. But what this song "Object:" by the Cure means to me as how some men view women as objects that don't matter, that are fun and great to have around and then can be thrown away, cause you're an object. In fact, I talked about my dating woes on here and i dated this lawyer and I ->-bleeped-<-ed him last week and he loved it and now...nothing. I feel like a whore. I feel worthless and the only reason I'm even okay is because my ex or real BF has been super nice to me and started talking to me again. In fact I talked to him for like six hours just today. If not for him, I'd be a hotter mess than I already am. But, yet, I still feel used and like a effing object. He could have at least paid me $500. Yeah, I'm top shelf lol Dinner and drinks isn't enough. I went out with him three times before I did it, so I think that's plenty.
Quote from: Tori on April 07, 2014, 08:48:48 PM
Quote from: FA on April 07, 2014, 07:31:53 PM
This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. The exception proves the rule. And being successful in other areas doesn't shield women from this. I never said there weren't successful women. I never said there weren't happy women. What I am saying is that women are valued for their looks first, everything second. I'm honestly surprised that saying this is so controversial. I guess it goes back to what I was saying - we all want to believe in equality and fairness. But women are not seen the same as men. Those same women you're talking about probably make less than their male counterparts. They probably have had facelifts. They probably are dieting. Because they are still judged as a whole on something men are not.
No credible scientist would claim an exception ever proves a rule. To say an exception proves a rule is again, fallacious. It is taking someone's evidence to the contrary to bolster your entirely different opinion. That can prevent this thread from being a conversation, if it does not matter to you what anyone says to the contrary, as it just "Proves" your point.
You say women are valued for their looks first and everything else second. And then you wonder why what you say is controversial, in a forum full of many women who value women for everything else first, and looks second. Also, you say this in a room full of many women who struggle daily, not to look beautiful but simply to look female.
Then you throw a few straw men into the mix by assuming these women, presented to you as examples, are most likely underpaid, face-lifted, anorexics.
As I understand it, the income inequality has less and less to do with getting equal pay for equal work, and more to do with the salary offered at jobs women tend to do as compared to jobs that men tend to do. There are also, more single mothers than single fathers, and raising a family alone can interfere with career goals, thus increasing the odds of single mothers living at or near poverty. There is a discrepancy in pay, but it has more nuance than just assuming the man working beside me makes more just for being a man.
The assumptions that these women have probably had facelifts and are probably on diets, are the types of comments that leave me surprised when you wonder out loud why this thread is SO controversial. Why? Because those assumptions seem to shed light on your narrow view of women, rather than society's.
I hope that clears some things up for you FA, since it seems you want input from us in spite of your firmly rooted opinions.
I do love your approach to topics FA, as we don't see this type of conversation too often in this forum. I don't have hurt feelings. :)
'The exception that proves the rule' is just a figure of speech. And okay, maybe I shouldn't have made assumptions about the women. But stats show that most women are on diets, and more women than ever are getting plastic surgery. Because we really don't let women age anymore. Most women do go through this and are afraid not to be beautiful and scared of their birthdays. Because they're supposed to be a perfect piece of flesh forever. That's how it feels anyway. I wish I was wrong about this, but I know I'm not. This relentless focus on bodily perfection and women being constantly praised and shamed for their bodies is really harmful. Makes many afraid to eat or leave the house without makeup because they'll be shamed for their appearance by both men and other women.
It's not like something so obvious as I'm describing it. It's more noise in the background, you know? Something so normal it's not even noticed. I guess for me it has become obvious after transition where it wouldn't have been before. Now, I really didn't mind it at the time. I didn't care what people said. It wasn't even me anyway. It's only now that I'm starting to recognize that all this baggage is there.
QuoteYou say women are valued for their looks first and everything else second. And then you wonder why what you say is controversial, in a forum full of many women who value women for everything else first, and looks second. Also, you say this in a room full of many women who struggle daily, not to look beautiful but simply to look female.
Well, I don't mean to do that. But I'm also seeing exactly what I describe all over these forums - the focus on youth and beauty. A lot of ageism and looksism here. It's only natural I suppose because that's what women are taught to focus on. I'm not saying that I think this way, I'm saying this is the overriding message young girls get. And that it's very limiting and dehumanizing - just as feeling forced to stifle emotions is for men. But isn't better to know this is out there and that it's wrong? That's what I'm saying. I'm certainly not saying it's right.
And I'm really not trying to depress anyone or paint such a bleak picture. The last thing I want to do is hurt anyone. But maybe it's better to think and talk about this out loud even in such stark terms than to just get it in small doses every day as background noise. At least if it's out loud in the open, it can't sneak in like a poison without you realizing. And also, I've endured countless rants over the years here about the limitations and expectations of manhood and how harmful it is. And I'm sure it sometimes sounded ludicrous to me as well. But that's because I didn't grow up with it. And it's not something obvious - I mean I don't get people yelling at me daily for breaking male rules. In fact, in years of living male, I never have been. Just a few funny looks. But I still know it's there.
Quote from: FA on April 08, 2014, 07:04:37 AM
No credible scientist would claim an exception ever proves a rule. To say an exception proves a rule is again, fallacious. It is taking someone's evidence to the contrary to bolster your entirely different opinion. That can prevent this thread from being a conversation, if it does not matter to you what anyone says to the contrary, as it just "Proves" your point.
You say women are valued for their looks first and everything else second. And then you wonder why what you say is controversial, in a forum full of many women who value women for everything else first, and looks second. Also, you say this in a room full of many women who struggle daily, not to look beautiful but simply to look female.
Then you throw a few straw men into the mix by assuming these women, presented to you as examples, are most likely underpaid, face-lifted, anorexics.
As I understand it, the income inequality has less and less to do with getting equal pay for equal work, and more to do with the salary offered at jobs women tend to do as compared to jobs that men tend to do. There are also, more single mothers than single fathers, and raising a family alone can interfere with career goals, thus increasing the odds of single mothers living at or near poverty. There is a discrepancy in pay, but it has more nuance than just assuming the man working beside me makes more just for being a man.
The assumptions that these women have probably had facelifts and are probably on diets, are the types of comments that leave me surprised when you wonder out loud why this thread is SO controversial. Why? Because those assumptions seem to shed light on your narrow view of women, rather than society's.
I hope that clears some things up for you FA, since it seems you want input from us in spite of your firmly rooted opinions.
I do love your approach to topics FA, as we don't see this type of conversation too often in this forum. I don't have hurt feelings. :)
'The exception that proves the rule' is just a figure of speech. And okay, maybe I shouldn't have made assumptions about the women. But stats show that most women are on diets, and more women than ever are getting plastic surgery. Because we really don't let women age anymore. Most women do go through this and are afraid not to be beautiful and scared of their birthdays. Because they're supposed to be a perfect piece of flesh forever. That's how it feels anyway. I wish I was wrong about this, but I know I'm not. This relentless focus on bodily perfection and women being constantly praised and shamed for their bodies is really harmful. Makes many afraid to eat or leave the house without makeup because they'll be shamed for their appearance by both men and other women.
It's not like something so obvious as I'm describing it. It's more noise in the background, you know? Something so normal it's not even noticed. I guess for me it has become obvious after transition where it wouldn't have been before. Now, I really didn't mind it at the time. I didn't care what people said. It wasn't even me anyway. It's only now that I'm starting to recognize that all this baggage is there.
Well, I don't mean to do that. But I'm also seeing exactly what I describe all over these forums - the focus on youth and beauty. A lot of ageism and looksism here. It's only natural I suppose because that's what women are taught to focus on. I'm not saying that I think this way, I'm saying this is the overriding message young girls get. And that it's very limiting and dehumanizing - just as feeling forced to stifle emotions is for men. But isn't better to know this is out there and that it's wrong? That's what I'm saying. I'm certainly not saying it's right.
And I'm really not trying to depress anyone or paint such a bleak picture. The last thing I want to do is hurt anyone. But maybe it's better to think and talk about this out loud even in such stark terms than to just get it in small doses every day as background noise. At least if it's out loud in the open, it can't sneak in like a poison without you realizing. And also, I've endured countless rants over the years here about the limitations and expectations of manhood and how harmful it is. And I'm sure it sometimes sounded ludicrous to me as well. But that's because I didn't grow up with it. And it's not something obvious - I mean I don't get people yelling at me daily for breaking male rules. In fact, in years of living male, I never have been. Just a few funny looks. But I still know it's there.
the only way for society to grow is to educate and that means to explain what others can't see.
Quote from: FA on April 08, 2014, 07:04:37 AM
'The exception that proves the rule' is just a figure of speech. And okay, maybe I shouldn't have made assumptions about the women.
Why not? Everyone else does... that is largely what you have been saying - women can be judged superficially. I happen to disagree with that
Quote from: FA on April 08, 2014, 07:04:37 AMBut stats show that most women are on diets
True enough because our metabolisms are slower than mens and so we put on weight very easily. Today's foods are carb and sugar laden meaning our calorific intake is too high so it is no surprise that we diet more than ever before.
Quote from: FA on April 08, 2014, 07:04:37 AMand more women than ever are getting plastic surgery.
Also true, but it is still a minority of women. Most women do not undergo plastic surgery. You can dig the figures out but it is single figure percentages. We are not talking of 1/4 or 1/2 the population, it is more like 1/20. The figures can be tricky because often one person has multiple procedures.
Quote from: FA on April 08, 2014, 07:04:37 AMBecause they're supposed to be a perfect piece of flesh forever. That's how it feels anyway. I wish I was wrong about this, but I know I'm not. This relentless focus on bodily perfection and women being constantly praised and shamed for their bodies is really harmful. Makes many afraid to eat or leave the house without makeup because they'll be shamed for their appearance by both men and other women.
Afraid to eat? What planet are you on? Obesity is a MAJOR problem. More of the population is obese than ever before. Look out of your window and a few obese women will be passing soon http://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/adult.html
Quote from: FA on April 08, 2014, 07:04:37 AMBut I'm also seeing exactly what I describe all over these forums - the focus on youth and beauty.
Ah yes - this place. This could totally move the goalposts of the discussion, but I will not go there other than to say that trans-women have a different set of reasons. If I posted what I really thought of some of the stuff I read here it would go down very badly.
Well, I suppose I could dig up a bunch of stats on eating disorders and plastic surgery. But I don't see the point. If you don't want to believe that women grow up having terrible body image as a group (that's the thing, everyone keeps dragging anecdotes and their friends into it, and it's not about the individual), because they as a group valued for their appearance first, then there's not much I can say.
For instance, I could say that my friend is effeminate and doesn't let anything get him down. But that doesn't mean men as a group aren't oppressed by harmful and stifling expectations.
Quote from: FA on April 08, 2014, 09:25:31 AM
Well, I suppose I could dig up a bunch of stats on eating disorders and plastic surgery. But I don't see the point. If you don't want to believe that women grow up having terrible body image as a group (that's the thing, everyone keeps dragging anecdotes and their friends into it, and it's not about the individual), because they as a group valued for their appearance first, then there's not much I can say.
For instance, I could say that my friend is effeminate and doesn't let anything get him down. But that doesn't mean men as a group aren't oppressed by harmful and stifling expectations.
here is a stat, 75% of woman have disordered eating according to a psychological study . It's irrelevant whether it's obeisity or anorexia the root problem is the image forced on them by society.
Tsk... society again. We really should get it serviced.
Quote from: stephaniec on April 08, 2014, 09:32:51 AM
Quote from: FA on April 08, 2014, 09:25:31 AM
Well, I suppose I could dig up a bunch of stats on eating disorders and plastic surgery. But I don't see the point. If you don't want to believe that women grow up having terrible body image as a group (that's the thing, everyone keeps dragging anecdotes and their friends into it, and it's not about the individual), because they as a group valued for their appearance first, then there's not much I can say.
For instance, I could say that my friend is effeminate and doesn't let anything get him down. But that doesn't mean men as a group aren't oppressed by harmful and stifling expectations.
here is a stat, 75% of woman have disordered eating according to a psychological study . It's irrelevant whether it's obeisity or anorexia the root problem is the image forced on them by society.
Thanks hon.
As usual, I feel awful for even talking about this. I do wonder though why discussions about male oppression always go on here without comment, but trying to talk about the other side always gets everyone so upset. Of course what I'm talking about is awful and ugly! Because it is.
Sure, I'm being kind of dramatic in the way I talk about it and you probably won't hear anyone else compare women to plants and the like. Cause nobody wants to be that crude. But how far is it really from this -
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-l41CY3yi38M%2FT7hol_dXtzI%2FAAAAAAAABEk%2FazmxrkK_gtE%2Fs1600%2Fa.jpg&hash=dfd87cc893dcc43560c8ff43cd97ae2a188d4003)
Sure, it's just an ad. But it's symptomatic of how women are viewed. Women And Objectification: Brain Sees Men As Whole, Women In Parts (STUDY) (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/25/women-and-objectification_n_1701275.html)
Quote from: FA on April 05, 2014, 10:21:53 PM
what does it mean to you? A difficult concept maybe. Many trans women are without the trappings that usually define 'woman', so what does it mean to you? Being female. In scientific terms this implies the ability to give birth, but is obviously more than that. What is the essence of woman - her beauty, her breasts, her genitals? I had all these and was not a woman, however much I tried to be. So, what is it?
OK, I'll bite. I always knew something was off, and for decades I just thought I was just weird. I like girls, I have guy parts, therefore I am a straight guy, right? Never mind all these wonderful dreams I have where I'm a girl. Who in their right mind would have a sex change just to become gay? This is the crap I fed myself until the dysphoria really bit me in the ass.
I am a woman because my brain is female and I have erased all doubts that this is the case. Testosterone makes me feel bad, estrogen makes me feel good. There are plenty of women that lack beauty, breasts or genitalia, yet they are still women.
My core is female, and the dissonance of not looking like one started to bother me to the point of self harm. The more female I appear, the happier I am. I also no longer wonder why it is that I never quite fit in with guy culture. Men are still sort of a mystery to me, but somehow I always fit in much more easily with groups of women. I know why it is now that when I was in college I fooled around with an inordinate number of lesbians. It all makes sense now...
Quote from: FA on April 08, 2014, 09:54:18 AM
here is a stat, 75% of woman have disordered eating according to a psychological study . It's irrelevant whether it's obeisity or anorexia the root problem is the image forced on them by society.
Thanks hon.
As usual, I feel awful for even talking about this. I do wonder though why discussions about male oppression always go on here without comment, but trying to talk about the other side always gets everyone so upset. Of course what I'm talking about is awful and ugly! Because it is.
Sure, I'm being kind of dramatic in the way I talk about it and you probably won't hear anyone else compare women to plants and the like. Cause nobody wants to be that crude. But how far is it really from this -
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-l41CY3yi38M%2FT7hol_dXtzI%2FAAAAAAAABEk%2FazmxrkK_gtE%2Fs1600%2Fa.jpg&hash=dfd87cc893dcc43560c8ff43cd97ae2a188d4003)
Sure, it's just an ad. But it's symptomatic of how women are viewed. Women And Objectification: Brain Sees Men As Whole, Women In Parts (STUDY) (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/25/women-and-objectification_n_1701275.html)
keep it up . It's very refreshing to get a knowledgeable perspective on things.
Quote from: Jill F on April 08, 2014, 09:54:48 AM
Quote from: FA on April 05, 2014, 10:21:53 PM
what does it mean to you? A difficult concept maybe. Many trans women are without the trappings that usually define 'woman', so what does it mean to you? Being female. In scientific terms this implies the ability to give birth, but is obviously more than that. What is the essence of woman - her beauty, her breasts, her genitals? I had all these and was not a woman, however much I tried to be. So, what is it?
OK, I'll bite. I always knew something was off, and for decades I just thought I was just weird. I like girls, I have guy parts, therefore I am a straight guy, right? Never mind all these wonderful dreams I have where I'm a girl. Who in their right mind would have a sex change just to become gay? This is the crap I fed myself until the dysphoria really bit me in the ass.
I am a woman because my brain is female and I have erased all doubts that this is the case. Testosterone makes me feel bad, estrogen makes me feel good. There are plenty of women that lack beauty, breasts or genitalia, yet they are still women.
My core is female, and the dissonance of not looking like one started to bother me to the point of self harm. The more female I appear, the happier I am. I also no longer wonder why it is that I never quite fit in with guy culture. Men are still sort of a mystery to me, but somehow I always fit in much more easily with groups of women. I know why it is now that when I was in college I fooled around with an inordinate number of lesbians. It all makes sense now...
Thanks for answering hon. I didn't mean to derail this thread with my rants. That really wasn't my intention where I started this thread. Somehow I always keep coming back to this in some attempt to heal myself. And then I feel really awful for talking about it.
Quote from: FA on April 08, 2014, 10:01:35 AM
OK, I'll bite. I always knew something was off, and for decades I just thought I was just weird. I like girls, I have guy parts, therefore I am a straight guy, right? Never mind all these wonderful dreams I have where I'm a girl. Who in their right mind would have a sex change just to become gay? This is the crap I fed myself until the dysphoria really bit me in the ass.
I am a woman because my brain is female and I have erased all doubts that this is the case. Testosterone makes me feel bad, estrogen makes me feel good. There are plenty of women that lack beauty, breasts or genitalia, yet they are still women.
My core is female, and the dissonance of not looking like one started to bother me to the point of self harm. The more female I appear, the happier I am. I also no longer wonder why it is that I never quite fit in with guy culture. Men are still sort of a mystery to me, but somehow I always fit in much more easily with groups of women. I know why it is now that when I was in college I fooled around with an inordinate number of lesbians. It all makes sense now...
Thanks for answering hon. I didn't mean to derail this thread with my rants. That really wasn't my intention where I started this thread. Somehow I always keep coming back to this in some attempt to heal myself. And then I feel really awful for talking about it.
*hugs*
You know you're pretty awesome, right?
Quote from: Jill F on April 08, 2014, 10:05:07 AM
Quote from: FA on April 08, 2014, 10:01:35 AM
OK, I'll bite. I always knew something was off, and for decades I just thought I was just weird. I like girls, I have guy parts, therefore I am a straight guy, right? Never mind all these wonderful dreams I have where I'm a girl. Who in their right mind would have a sex change just to become gay? This is the crap I fed myself until the dysphoria really bit me in the ass.
I am a woman because my brain is female and I have erased all doubts that this is the case. Testosterone makes me feel bad, estrogen makes me feel good. There are plenty of women that lack beauty, breasts or genitalia, yet they are still women.
My core is female, and the dissonance of not looking like one started to bother me to the point of self harm. The more female I appear, the happier I am. I also no longer wonder why it is that I never quite fit in with guy culture. Men are still sort of a mystery to me, but somehow I always fit in much more easily with groups of women. I know why it is now that when I was in college I fooled around with an inordinate number of lesbians. It all makes sense now...
Thanks for answering hon. I didn't mean to derail this thread with my rants. That really wasn't my intention where I started this thread. Somehow I always keep coming back to this in some attempt to heal myself. And then I feel really awful for talking about it.
*hugs*
You know you're pretty awesome, right?
No I don't. But thanks. You just made me cry. :'(
I've been feeling so bad all night. And guilty and afraid that I am hurting or depressing the women here. I guess I'm in a fragile state right now. I'm taking a course and doing a lot of inner work to try to fix myself. So a lot of this comes up and then I start ranting about it needing someone to listen. This is one of the issues I never knew was an issue and denied during transition. I was always a male and not ever affected by anything female. That's what I told myself.
And well, I guess I've become bitter and disgusted at the vast difference in how people react to me as a male.
I'm sorry for bringing it up and I'm going to try not to.
Quote from: stephaniec on April 08, 2014, 09:32:51 AM
here is a stat, 75% of woman have disordered eating according to a psychological study . It's irrelevant whether it's obeisity or anorexia the root problem is the image forced on them by society.
Citation please.
After a quick search I found:
- In their lifetime, an estimated 0.6 percent of the adult population in the U.S. will suffer from anorexia, 1.0 percent from bulimia, and 2.8 percent from a binge eating disorder (http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/the-numbers-count-mental-disorders-in-america/index.shtml#Eating)
- Research suggests that about one percent (1%) of female adolescents have anorexia. There do not seem to be reliable figures for younger children and older adults, but such cases, while they do occur, are not common.
-Research suggests that about four percent (4%), or four out of one hundred, college-aged women have bulimia. Because people with bulimia are secretive, it is difficult to know how many older people are affected.
(http://www.anred.com/stats.html)
Oops, also:
According to a 2002 survey, 1.5% of Canadian women aged 15–24 years had an eating disorder.
Government of Canada. (2006). The Human Face of Mental Health and Mental Illness in Canada 2006.
The prevalence of anorexia and bulimia is estimated to be 0.3% and 1.0% among adolescent and young women respectively. Prevalence rates of anorexia and bulimia appear to increase during the transition from adolescence to young adulthood.
Hoek, H. W. (2007). Incidence, prevalence and mortality of anorexia and other eating disorders. Current Opinion in Psychiatry, 19(4), 389-394.
(http://www.nedic.ca/know-facts/statistics)
Quote from: Jessika Lin on April 08, 2014, 10:41:40 AM
Citation please.
After a quick search I found:
- In their lifetime, an estimated 0.6 percent of the adult population in the U.S. will suffer from anorexia, 1.0 percent from bulimia, and 2.8 percent from a binge eating disorder (http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/the-numbers-count-mental-disorders-in-america/index.shtml#Eating)
- Research suggests that about one percent (1%) of female adolescents have anorexia. There do not seem to be reliable figures for younger children and older adults, but such cases, while they do occur, are not common.
-Research suggests that about four percent (4%), or four out of one hundred, college-aged women have bulimia. Because people with bulimia are secretive, it is difficult to know how many older people are affected.
(http://www.anred.com/stats.html)
Oops, also:
According to a 2002 survey, 1.5% of Canadian women aged 15–24 years had an eating disorder.
Government of Canada. (2006). The Human Face of Mental Health and Mental Illness in Canada 2006.
The prevalence of anorexia and bulimia is estimated to be 0.3% and 1.0% among adolescent and young women respectively. Prevalence rates of anorexia and bulimia appear to increase during the transition from adolescence to young adulthood.
Hoek, H. W. (2007). Incidence, prevalence and mortality of anorexia and other eating disorders. Current Opinion in Psychiatry, 19(4), 389-394.
(http://www.nedic.ca/know-facts/statistics)
quick search, Psych central.com
Quote from: FA on April 08, 2014, 10:34:28 AM
So a lot of this comes up and then I start ranting about it needing someone to listen. This is one of the issues I never knew was an issue and denied during transition. I was always a male and not ever affected by anything female. That's what I told myself.
There is some truth in that. Coming from the other direction, I now care about issues that previously I ignored and there are 'masculine' issues that no longer worry me now I am living as female. There is no need to feel guilty about it, it comes with the territory.
Quote from: FA on April 08, 2014, 10:34:28 AMAnd well, I guess I've become bitter and disgusted at the vast difference in how people react to me as a male.
Why? It is no secret that men and women receive different treatment, twas ever thus. Some people say that I am giving up "male privilege" (whatever the hell that is) and making myself a second class citizen. Maybe they are right but I am making myself happy and that counts for far, far more. If people treat you better as a man than they did as a woman, maybe that is to your credit. I am a far, happier and better woman than I ever was as a man and people respond to that. Maybe the same is true in your own case. Maybe they respond better to you because you have become a better person.
Even if you are wrong and they are treating you better because you are a man, that is an indictment of
them and not a fault in yourself. Enjoy the sensation, but be good with it. There is no reason for guilt.
Quote from: FA on April 08, 2014, 10:34:28 AM
I'm sorry for bringing it up and I'm going to try not to.
What? Bury it? All of us around here know what THAT will achieve. You need to let it out. Just because people disagree with you does not mean you should stop discussing it. It is only through discussion that you will come to a resolution of this. Personally I would like to see you realise that you have nothing to answer for, no reason for resenting what OTHERS did to you or how THEY treated you.
In the end you can only be answerable for your own actions.
Quote from: stephaniec on April 08, 2014, 10:59:09 AM
quick search, Psych central.com
A link would be handy. In any case, I read the Eating Disorder section and nowhere was it asserted that 75% of all women have an eating disorder.
According to that site's statements:
- Rarely talked about, an eating disorder can affect up to 5 percent of the population of teenage girls. (Intro page)
- Right now, 1 percent of all American women -- our sisters, mothers and daughters -- are starving themselves (Anorexia page)
And no numbers beyond 'millions' in reference to Bulimia and Binge-eating.
Also, the site provides zero citations as to where the information they present has come from. While the numbers I just referred to above seem reasonable to me (as far as they go), without sources I consider the information they present to have no credibility at all.
Quote from: provizora3 on April 08, 2014, 11:14:26 AM
Quote from: FA on April 08, 2014, 10:34:28 AM
So a lot of this comes up and then I start ranting about it needing someone to listen. This is one of the issues I never knew was an issue and denied during transition. I was always a male and not ever affected by anything female. That's what I told myself.
There is some truth in that. Coming from the other direction, I now care about issues that previously I ignored and there are 'masculine' issues that no longer worry me now I am living as female. There is no need to feel guilty about it, it comes with the territory.
Quote from: FA on April 08, 2014, 10:34:28 AMAnd well, I guess I've become bitter and disgusted at the vast difference in how people react to me as a male.
Why? It is no secret that men and women receive different treatment, twas ever thus. Some people say that I am giving up "male privilege" (whatever the hell that is) and making myself a second class citizen. Maybe they are right but I am making myself happy and that counts for far, far more. If people treat you better as a man than they did as a woman, maybe that is to your credit. I am a far, happier and better woman than I ever was as a man and people respond to that. Maybe the same is true in your own case. Maybe they respond better to you because you have become a better person.
Even if you are wrong and they are treating you better because you are a man, that is an indictment of them and not a fault in yourself. Enjoy the sensation, but be good with it. There is no reason for guilt.
Quote from: FA on April 08, 2014, 10:34:28 AM
I'm sorry for bringing it up and I'm going to try not to.
What? Bury it? All of us around here know what THAT will achieve. You need to let it out. Just because people disagree with you does not mean you should stop discussing it. It is only through discussion that you will come to a resolution of this. Personally I would like to see you realise that you have nothing to answer for, no reason for resenting what OTHERS did to you or how THEY treated you.
In the end you can only be answerable for your own actions.
I think I just feel really bad about it all around - about talking about it, opening up in the first place on here when I haven't really done that in years. Being a man affected by women's issues, And then I'm afraid that I'm causing harm to the women here talking about it. I guess I hear what I think is a lot of offense in some of the replies which makes me feel bad and get defensive and keep going on about it hoping I can make someone understand.
I think that going from what I was - never able to go anywhere or do anything without compliments and the opposite on my appearance and seeing the difference. I feel like I'm seen as a whole person. You know, maybe other women didn't have it the same. I don't know. Maybe it was my appearance and people's reactions to it which made me this way. Never being allowed to forget it. I think it contributed to my social anxiety.
FA, there are so many factors that go into our view of life. Things we have no control over.
Sometimes I have the habit of "burying my head in the sand", it hurts too much to think about my past, so I try to avoid it. Guess what, that doesn't work.
Your facing your demons, I'm proud of you for that.
Quote from: FA on April 08, 2014, 11:54:12 AM
And then I'm afraid that I'm causing harm to the women here talking about it. I guess I hear what I think is a lot of offense in some of the replies which makes me feel bad and get defensive and keep going on about it hoping I can make someone understand.
Many feel passionate about the issues - just like you do - and sometimes things are not expressed well. It usually sorts itself out.
Quote from: FA on April 08, 2014, 11:54:12 AMYou know, maybe other women didn't have it the same. I don't know. Maybe it was my appearance and people's reactions to it which made me this way. Never being allowed to forget it. I think it contributed to my social anxiety.
I agree.
I know for a fact that other women did not have it the same because I have been surrounded by women all my life. I have always had a lot of female friends, female work colleagues and I always got on better with my female relatives. I have daughters of my own and their friends are often here. Out of that collection, they were
aware of the effect of beauty but out of all of them only a handful were badly affected by it - 2 or 3.
If you need to keep on about this topic then do so. You know that covering it up will solve nothing except to make it worse.
Quote from: Jessika Lin on April 08, 2014, 11:44:12 AM
A link would be handy. In any case, I read the Eating Disorder section and nowhere was it asserted that 75% of all women have an eating disorder.
According to that site's statements:
- Rarely talked about, an eating disorder can affect up to 5 percent of the population of teenage girls. (Intro page)
- Right now, 1 percent of all American women -- our sisters, mothers and daughters -- are starving themselves (Anorexia page)
And no numbers beyond 'millions' in reference to Bulimia and Binge-eating.
Also, the site provides zero citations as to where the information they present has come from. While the numbers I just referred to above seem reasonable to me (as far as they go), without sources I consider the information they present to have no credibility at all.
it's on the web page where you find % of woman with eaating disorders. look for 75% of woman have disordered eating. that's the best I can do because I don[t know how to do that link stuff it is there under the psych central.com address of the heading 75% of woman have disordered eating
It's an updated news item. Thats as helpful as I can be in guiding you there , sorry it does exist
just google " 75% of woman have disordered eating "
First off, that was a survey for a magazine, which is no where near being a proper peer-reviewed study. Secondly, the only reference given is circular, it references itself. Absolutely zero credibility.
Quote from: Jessika Lin on April 08, 2014, 01:08:58 PM
First off, that was a survey for a magazine, which is no where near being a proper peer-reviewed study. Secondly, the only reference given is circular, it references itself. Absolutely zero credibility.
the web site is run by a dr. so maybe you can take the issue up with them
FA,
There is no reason to harp on yourself, when we can harp on you ourselves. :p
Look, the picture you have painted is bleak and it does not mesh with my paradigm of being a woman, not entirely. That hardly invalidates YOUR experience.
Your expression here is so unmistakably male. No wonder your experience as a female, and pretty to boot, was torture. I have never seen a picture of you before or after transition and I do not need to. You have always been male in my mind's eye and in yours too, it seems.
Women wear makeup to cover their flaws and clothing that accentuates the positive and eliminates the negative. I confess that both bothers and entertains me. I enjoy it to a point. There is no doubt in my mind that it takes 17 million times longer to go ANYWHERE as a woman.
Like many women, I have body issues and weight issues, but they stem from being MTF, it is my visible masculinity that sets me off. I actually enjoy looking at myself now, even without makeup, as I notice the femininity emerging faster and stronger than I ever imagined.
Shaving my body sucks. I do it for me. My wire thick, male body hair is a dysphoric trigger.
You make a thread like this, some feathers will ruffle and some panties will wad. We can still be supportive of you and help you with your issues. Just do not be surprised if we attempt to validate our own experiences in the process. We too are vulnerable to bouts of dysphoria if we keep things bottled up.
Now let go of your guilt. We are big girls in here.
One little thing I kiiiinda wanted to point out is that a trigger warning might be helpful for this thread.
Okay, let's please stop worrying about the link please. It doesn't matter.
Quote from: Sarah Louise on April 08, 2014, 12:09:01 PM
FA, there are so many factors that go into our view of life. Things we have no control over.
Sometimes I have the habit of "burying my head in the sand", it hurts too much to think about my past, so I try to avoid it. Guess what, that doesn't work.
Your facing your demons, I'm proud of you for that.
Thanks hon. I'm grateful for the support. It means a lot.
It seems like I'm always doing this - trying to find out why I am the way I am. One thing that just keeps coming up this past year or so that I always denied was all this woman stuff. As trans people, it's only natural to want to think we're not affected by growing up the opposite gender. I feel like I'm constantly being chased by this ghost of a woman. I thought transition would fix it all. I mean, it fixed the problem right? Well, the identity mismatch, yes. But I'm still not fixed somehow. I still don't know how to live. I still think everyone is staring and caring mostly about my appearance. That I think is part of female experience - everyone does look at women more.
Part of it is a realization looking back, being used to being valued for my appearance so much that I didn't even realize it. Wondering if anyone - lovers, friends, anyone ever liked me for me. They said they did. But would they have ever cared or thought I was interesting if I hadn't been pretty? If I was a guy back then? When I started to realize this - I'm not sure how to describe it. It felt like a huge slap in the face. I suppose all trans people go through some version of this - difficult when we've been seen and loved for something we are not. But mine definitely seems to have a gendered component. It was like all my illusions were gone and I felt a huge sense of loss. I was afraid that it was all a lie. My life. Being loved for being female. There's something that just feels so awful about that.
I was so used to never being allowed by anyone anywhere to forget my body. Always being told about my face and tits. Always. Always very conspicuous and on display. Now this didn't hurt at the time. I was pretty numb, and like I said none of this ever bothered me before transition.
But even well after transition, I still am having problems. I can tell people are seeing me so differently. And at first it was so disconcerting but also really great. And I felt more human than ever. But it was also really raw and painful. Maybe it's just me. I think I'm probably too sensitive and easily overwhelmed by stimuli. I still feel like I'm not fit to be seen. And I felt this as a so called 'beautiful girl' too. I still can't even get up the courage to post my picture on my school website. Even though everyone else has and it's required. I can't take a video of myself like the other students. And I want to so much! But I can't. I wouldn't have been able to as a girl either.
I remember when my mom got me on at this modeling place (she was hoping to feminize me a bit) and me and all the other girls and I did this trial run for a commercial. I couldn't look as they played us back and asked another girl to tell me when I was on. There was this voice on there talking, and she said 'You're on now! It's you.' I looked up and saw and heard this, this monster I didn't recognize. And I never came back. I was literally terrified of my own shadow. I couldn't bear to look at myself. I'm still terrified of my own pictures, my own face. Ironically though, I now stare at myself naked in the mirror. Probably looking awful to most eyes, yet still feeling awesome! :laugh: I still have so many issues viewing my face though.
This is pretty much how I feel all the time, not the song but like a monster in a castle:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOikQWAL8qc
I felt like that as a girl too. I could never bear my own reflection and everyone always commenting on it, good and bad. Eventually I became a heroin addict and under the darker sky, warmth, and safety of it, even a monster could walk around. Whenever I would get clean, I would become a hermit again, rotting alone not seeing another human being for weeks, months until my mother would drop by and clean. The phone off the hook, the door never answered. Melodramatic? Maybe. But true. I don't know how to live. Maybe I never did. I should probably be committed, but I could never bear anyone poking around up there in my mind. I know where everything is up there and what's in all the drawers. All the ingredients, the hang-ups, why I am the way I am - but I still can't fix it. I can never fix it. I spend my life trying, desperately trying to rearrange and fix things up there.
(Oh god, why do I even talk about this! I'm supposed to be the admin here. You shouldn't be hearing all this)
Quote from: sad panda on April 08, 2014, 02:19:59 PM
One little thing I kiiiinda wanted to point out is that a trigger warning might be helpful for this thread.
Sorry hon, I'll try but sometimes it doesn't work on new replies.
Quote from: FA on April 08, 2014, 02:35:06 PM
Sorry hon, I'll try but sometimes it doesn't work on new replies.
No you're fine :) I just was thinking, it might help people understand that they ARE being triggered and help the tone of some replies.
Your last post made a lot of sense to me in a lot of ways even if it's not the exact manifestation of my issues. Do you think it's all about gender? not that that wouldn't be a big component, but I know that sometimes I'll just be looking for something, anything to blame because the hardest part about having these horrible problems can be not even being able to explain why.
Sometimes it makes being trans just feel pretty messed up to me. I felt like it throws everything into this chaos that, no matter how bad it was before, was just on a new level and I haven't been able to sort out even the most basic sense of my life since.
Not trying to be negative though, just ended up feeling mixed (but completely personal to me) things after reading your last post, hah. :c
Quote from: sad panda on April 08, 2014, 02:54:01 PM
Quote from: FA on April 08, 2014, 02:35:06 PM
Sorry hon, I'll try but sometimes it doesn't work on new replies.
No you're fine :) I just was thinking, it might help people understand that they ARE being triggered and help the tone of some replies.
Your last post made a lot of sense to me in a lot of ways even if it's not the exact manifestation of my issues. Do you think it's all about gender? not that that wouldn't be a big component, but I know that sometimes I'll just be looking for something, anything to blame because the hardest part about having these horrible problems can be not even being able to explain why.
Sometimes it makes being trans just feel pretty messed up to me. I felt like it throws everything into this chaos that, no matter how bad it was before, was just on a new level and I haven't been able to sort out even the most basic sense of my life since.
Not trying to be negative though, just ended up feeling mixed (but completely personal to me) things after reading your last post, hah. :c
Well, I think a lot of things went into it. Like I said in another thread, it's hard to to talk about gender stuff without acknowledging that women hold a marginalized status. Trans issues mesh with sexism issues. It's probably why trans women are demonized more. Because being female is still seen as having lesser status. I think if women were truly viewed as equal, trans women and effeminate men would not be so marginalized. Julia Serano put this way better than I ever could. Trans women are sensationalized and hypersexualized and I think this is an off shoot of how women in general are viewed. Being a woman trans or otherwise just seems like almost a synonym for sex. Cis men and trans men aren't reduced to sex. Sure, they are sometimes mildly sexualized in ads and we have the Chippendales, etc, but not the way women are.
I think a lot of the things I've talked about are probably offensive to women on a gut level, and human beings in general. And most men are not so heartless as to seriously view women as objects. I'm sure the idea is offensive to most men when spoken so plainly. But many men act this way without realizing it. It's expected and woven into our culture. So I get why the women were offended. No woman ever wants to hear stuff like that. But we do still live in a sexist world. And I hate to say this, but I really feel like women are not viewed as full human beings. At least not as fully as men are. :-\ And I think it would be impossible for women or anyone growing up as a woman to not be affected by this. I mean, things are better for women now. But it's like race issues which are better than they were but - I don't think you can come into this world as part of a marginalized group and not be affected. Just like race, some clearly have it worse than others, but they're all affected by it.
Quote from: FA on April 08, 2014, 03:27:57 PM
No you're fine :) I just was thinking, it might help people understand that they ARE being triggered and help the tone of some replies.
Your last post made a lot of sense to me in a lot of ways even if it's not the exact manifestation of my issues. Do you think it's all about gender? not that that wouldn't be a big component, but I know that sometimes I'll just be looking for something, anything to blame because the hardest part about having these horrible problems can be not even being able to explain why.
Sometimes it makes being trans just feel pretty messed up to me. I felt like it throws everything into this chaos that, no matter how bad it was before, was just on a new level and I haven't been able to sort out even the most basic sense of my life since.
Not trying to be negative though, just ended up feeling mixed (but completely personal to me) things after reading your last post, hah. :c
Well, I think a lot of things went into it. Like I said in another thread, it's hard to to talk about gender stuff without acknowledging that women hold a marginalized status. Trans issues mesh with sexism issues. It's probably why trans women are demonized more. Because being female is still seen as having lesser status. I think if women were truly viewed as equal, trans women and effeminate men would not be so marginalized. Julia Serano put this way better than I ever could. Trans women are sensationalized and hypersexualized and I think this is an off shoot of how women in general are viewed. Being a woman trans or otherwise just seems like almost a synonym for sex. Cis men and trans men aren't reduced to sex. Sure, they are sometimes mildly sexualized in ads and we have the Chippendales, etc, but not the way women are.
I think a lot of the things I've talked about are probably offensive to women on a gut level, and human beings in general. And most men are not so heartless as to seriously view women as objects. I'm sure the idea is offensive to most men when spoken so plainly. But many men act this way without realizing it. It's expected and woven into our culture. So I get why the women were offended. No woman ever wants to hear stuff like that. But we do still live in a sexist world. And I hate to say this, but I really feel like women are not viewed as full human beings. At least not as fully as men are. :-\ And I think it would be impossible for women or anyone growing up as a woman to not be affected by this. I mean, things are better for women now. But it's like race issues which are better than they were but - I don't think you can come into this world as part of a marginalized group and not be affected. Just like race, some clearly have it worse than others, but they're all affected by it.
They certainly are by a certain segment of the population, but this is by no means universal. Some of us have evolved, in fact, I'd like to think most of us in the US have by now (there are more women than men after all). I do agree that some men are absolute pigs though, and it is truly sad how certain women will bow to them. This antiquated view has nowhere to go but to the dustbins of history. Sorry Rush, et. al. Dinosaurs like you who propagate this nonsense are quickly becoming extinct.
I am sorry. When I first seen this tread started by you I felt a huge kick in the stomach.
Now you added a triggers warning and added another kick in my heart.
I have and gave my own personal view and heart felt congratulations to another sister who finished her path to a woman and I get a week ban from the forum for standing my ground on how I see what makes a women. But I am judged.
I am at a loss and very upset.
Isabell
Quote from: provizora3 on April 08, 2014, 12:20:48 PM
Quote from: FA on April 08, 2014, 11:54:12 AM
And then I'm afraid that I'm causing harm to the women here talking about it. I guess I hear what I think is a lot of offense in some of the replies which makes me feel bad and get defensive and keep going on about it hoping I can make someone understand.
Many feel passionate about the issues - just like you do - and sometimes things are not expressed well. It usually sorts itself out.
Quote from: FA on April 08, 2014, 11:54:12 AMYou know, maybe other women didn't have it the same. I don't know. Maybe it was my appearance and people's reactions to it which made me this way. Never being allowed to forget it. I think it contributed to my social anxiety.
I agree.
I know for a fact that other women did not have it the same because I have been surrounded by women all my life. I have always had a lot of female friends, female work colleagues and I always got on better with my female relatives. I have daughters of my own and their friends are often here. Out of that collection, they were aware of the effect of beauty but out of all of them only a handful were badly affected by it - 2 or 3.
Well, no doubt me being trans affected my perception of things. You know your friends and your daughters, and I don't. But if you met me before transition, you'd probably think I wasn't affected at all. I mean I was tough and tomboyish and confident (on the outside anyway). What I'm talking about is something riding below the surface. Background noise. Not something most people actively think about because it's so normal. I mean, you're seeing me being a heaping mess here, but you would never see me like this elsewhere.
When I worked at a bar, I had a lot of drunken women crying to me about this - about how jealous they were of me, my tits, etc, how inadequate they felt because they thought their tits were too small, or they weren't pretty enough (and there is a commonality - these were usually really good looking girls). How afraid they were because their boyfriend liked big tits and he saw me etc. I'm serious. I know I'm not the only one and that a lot of cis women feel like ->-bleeped-<- about this. I know my cousin has suffered about this beauty thing. My mother has. I'm not trying to contradict you or your friends and families' experiences, just saying I know it's extremely common. And these women didn't get that way on their own. They grew up in a society where women's looks are way too important. And while individuals may be appalled at the idea and not feel that way about the women in their lives, the world's message (and usually their peer's message) is that women must be perfect flesh. Forever. Perfection in general is emphasized for women. For instance, I'm a total fat slob now and still get respect. Nobody cares or says anything. I can only imagine if I were a fat woman... if I gained 5 lbs as a woman, I was demonized.
QuoteIf you need to keep on about this topic then do so. You know that covering it up will solve nothing except to make it worse.
Thanks hon. It feels like poison stuck inside.
Quote from: mind is quiet now on April 08, 2014, 04:20:51 PM
I am sorry. When I first seen this tread started by you I felt a huge kick in the stomach.
Now you added a triggers warning and added another kick in my heart.
I have and gave my own personal view and heart felt congratulations to another sister who finished her path to a woman and I get a week ban from the forum for standing my ground on how I see what makes a women. But I am judged.
I am at a loss and very upset.
Isabell
I'm sorry for upsetting you. Because of the sensitive nature of this thread, I'm not going to take this as a protest. But if you want to talk about the ban, you may talk to me in private.
Aside from that, can you talk to me and tell me why you were upset when you first saw the thread? I only started ranting several pages in I think. :embarrassed:
And why the trigger warning was upsetting?
Trying to remember what it was like being seen as a fat girl...I sort of forget...lol...I know on a few occasions I did have people comment on my appearance. A number of times while I was working someone would say something like "what are you doing for your acne? I know this great product..."
The worst, for me, was one time, an old man came in to the store with some makeup, held it out, and said "Use this." I said "I don't use makeup." He goes "Well it would definitely make that *gestures at my face* better." I mean wtf, you creepy old pervert, do you carry makeup in your pocket just to give it to people with bad acne? Lol. Part of me wondered if he saw me before and kept it with him just to make a statement.
He was bad with lots of others though. He went up to one girl who had a lot of piercings and said "just so you know, I'd never, ever have sex with you because of those piercings." She actually said "thank God old man, because you're disgusting."
Quote from: birkin on April 08, 2014, 04:39:30 PM
Trying to remember what it was like being seen as a fat girl...I sort of forget...lol...I know on a few occasions I did have people comment on my appearance. A number of times while I was working someone would say something like "what are you doing for your acne? I know this great product..."
The worst, for me, was one time, an old man came in to the store with some makeup, held it out, and said "Use this." I said "I don't use makeup." He goes "Well it would definitely make that *gestures at my face* better." I mean wtf, you creepy old pervert, do you carry makeup in your pocket just to give it to people with bad acne? Lol. Part of me wondered if he saw me before and kept it with him just to make a statement.
He was bad with lots of others though. He went up to one girl who had a lot of piercings and said "just so you know, I'd never, ever have sex with you because of those piercings." She actually said "thank God old man, because you're disgusting."
Oh god what a douche!
Quote from: FA on April 08, 2014, 04:40:54 PM
Oh god what a douche!
Come to think of it, he might have had some very serious mental problems. =/ But it wasn't the first time I had people on me over my acne. I'll never know if that was really about gender or not though, because my acne has improved on T.
Quote from: FA on April 08, 2014, 04:27:20 PM
Well, no doubt me being trans affected my perception of things. You know your friends and your daughters, and I don't. But if you met me before transition, you'd probably think I wasn't affected at all. I mean I was tough and tomboyish and confident (on the outside anyway). What I'm talking about is something riding below the surface. Background noise. Not something most people actively think about because it's so normal. I mean, you're seeing me being a heaping mess here, but you would never see me like this elsewhere.
Hey - I am trans too. I have been a "heaping mess" as well. We all have issues so you are not unique in that.
Quote from: FA on April 08, 2014, 04:27:20 PM
I know I'm not the only one and that a lot of cis women feel like ->-bleeped-<- about this. I know my cousin has suffered about this beauty thing. My mother has. I'm not trying to contradict you or your friends and families' experiences, just saying I know it's extremely common. And these women didn't get that way on their own. They grew up in a society where women's looks are way too important.
It has occurred to me that one big difference may be cultural. You grew up in the US and I did not. The UK is a different culture and we have long thought of Americans as being more self-conscious about their appearance. Also the UK appears to be more tolerant in many ways. Some of the things that people in the US experience, things they post about in these forums, would be illegal here and the ill-treatment they receive would be hate-crimes here. So it could be that the "image pressure" was more intense for American women than it ever was for British women. Just another 2p worth to consider.
Quote from: FA on April 08, 2014, 04:27:20 PMThanks hon. It feels like poison stuck inside.
Yes... I know how that feels.
Always remember that you are not responsible for the opinions held by others and if you did make mistakes when younger, well we all did that too. Most of us learn from our mistakes and stop making them.
Give yourself a break. Let the past go otherwise you will torture yourself. The past is the past. Live in the present and gift yourself a better future.
Quote from: provizora3 on April 08, 2014, 05:36:29 PM
Quote from: FA on April 08, 2014, 04:27:20 PM
Well, no doubt me being trans affected my perception of things. You know your friends and your daughters, and I don't. But if you met me before transition, you'd probably think I wasn't affected at all. I mean I was tough and tomboyish and confident (on the outside anyway). What I'm talking about is something riding below the surface. Background noise. Not something most people actively think about because it's so normal. I mean, you're seeing me being a heaping mess here, but you would never see me like this elsewhere.
Hey - I am trans too. I have been a "heaping mess" as well. We all have issues so you are not unique in that.
Really? You have too?
Quote from: FA on April 08, 2014, 04:27:20 PM
I know I'm not the only one and that a lot of cis women feel like ->-bleeped-<- about this. I know my cousin has suffered about this beauty thing. My mother has. I'm not trying to contradict you or your friends and families' experiences, just saying I know it's extremely common. And these women didn't get that way on their own. They grew up in a society where women's looks are way too important.
QuoteIt has occurred to me that one big difference may be cultural. You grew up in the US and I did not. The UK is a different culture and we have long thought of Americans as being more self-conscious about their appearance. Also the UK appears to be more tolerant in many ways. Some of the things that people in the US experience, things they post about in these forums, would be illegal here and the ill-treatment they receive would be hate-crimes here. So it could be that the "image pressure" was more intense for American women than it ever was for British women. Just another 2p worth to consider.
That's probably true. We're seen as this forward, leading nation. But in some ways, it really seems rather primitive here. I mean, people's basic rights like marriage are still up in the air, and I think we even still execute people by electric chair in some places.
Quote from: FA on April 08, 2014, 04:27:20 PMThanks hon. It feels like poison stuck inside.
{quote]Yes... I know how that feels.
Always remember that you are not responsible for the opinions held by others and if you did make mistakes when younger, well we all did that too. Most of us learn from our mistakes and stop making them.
Give yourself a break. Let the past go otherwise you will torture yourself. The past is the past. Live in the present and gift yourself a better future.
[/quote]
Thanks hon. I wish knew how.
It just occurred to me, as I've been thinking about this thread for a while...I was talking to someone who is a survivor of domestic abuse a while back. She told me "It's OK to be angry over how you are treated and how you are made to feel. It's a good sign that things need to change. But what is most important is that you channel that anger in the best direction that you can, rather than let it be directed inwards." So, in her case, she started working with women who had been abused. I'm not saying that's the same as what you're going through, but it's a thought that I have found has been useful for me when I am frustrated about something. Like how I was treated, how others made me feel.
FA, I've been thinking for a while about how to respond. I empathize so much, but I just don't know what words will help.
There is so much extreme wrongness in this world that it can drive a person mad. Objectification of women. Racism. First world-third world disparities in standard of life. LGBT people being executed in some countries, and family/religious rejection in this one. The fact trans people, even in first world countries, rarely get access to hormones early enough to prevent the wrong puberty. The fact the United States was based on the forced removal and genocide of one race and the enslavement of another. Animal mistreatment, and the extinction of thousands of precious species per year from human activity.
At some point, there has to be some level of disconnect to preserve our sanity. Humans weren't wired to fully sort out and resolve the emotions these injustices induce. All we can do is try to heal and live in the present. I know this doesn't help a lot, but it's all I can offer. *hugs*
This thread has had a profound impact on how I have viewed the world these last few days.
In a male dominated society, I admit objectification will tend to be an issue, since male attraction is so much about the visual. It is really amazing to experience both hormonal cocktails during one life.
Those of us who transition later often have less to worry about when it comes to looks. I will never be a pretty young thing. Frankly, I am relieved, as I have heard horror stories like yours, FA, hundreds of times. Being an actor in NYC introduced me to some stunning beauties (looks do sell) and just to hear some of their stories of what would happen to them walking from home to the train chilled me to the bone. Still, I am MTF, I envied even the worst parts of the female experience. I am older now.
What I do experience from time to time is the stink eye. People figure out I am trans and their face becomes a scowl. So, I too am judged for my looks by people who do not know me. I am inspired to work hard to blend in, but I do not wish to become too pretty (not that I really have to fear that being an issue). Unwanted attention can come in many forms.
Being trans spared me from being an alpha male, who treated women like meat. Sure, testosterone fueled my eyes in a way, but I was always interested in what made women tick and being seen as a straight male often prevented me from being part of the girl's club.
So yeah, FA, I think I am coming around and finally decoding what you are saying. Men DO have it much easier in some ways. For the first time in my life, there are places I will not walk through alone. Men in general are no longer as interested in what I think or have to say. Even online.
Women pay a price. A beauty tax. They are not as valued in general for their thoughts and work. It is tougher. Being mid transition adds to the tax. And yet, for us MTFs it is a price we are typically willing to pay.
Society may treat women in a specific and superficial way, but not all individuals do. I have garnered a surprising amount of respect from others simply by transitioning. Opportunities have sprung up. There is such thing as trans privelage.
Once damage has been done, it can be hard to let it go, but letting it go is healthy. If it is in the past, and it does not inform you as to better handling of a situation in the future, it is a damaging waste of time.
Quote from: FA on April 08, 2014, 03:27:57 PM
Well, I think a lot of things went into it. Like I said in another thread, it's hard to to talk about gender stuff without acknowledging that women hold a marginalized status. Trans issues mesh with sexism issues. It's probably why trans women are demonized more. Because being female is still seen as having lesser status. I think if women were truly viewed as equal, trans women and effeminate men would not be so marginalized. Julia Serano put this way better than I ever could. Trans women are sensationalized and hypersexualized and I think this is an off shoot of how women in general are viewed. Being a woman trans or otherwise just seems like almost a synonym for sex. Cis men and trans men aren't reduced to sex. Sure, they are sometimes mildly sexualized in ads and we have the Chippendales, etc, but not the way women are.
I think a lot of the things I've talked about are probably offensive to women on a gut level, and human beings in general. And most men are not so heartless as to seriously view women as objects. I'm sure the idea is offensive to most men when spoken so plainly. But many men act this way without realizing it. It's expected and woven into our culture. So I get why the women were offended. No woman ever wants to hear stuff like that. But we do still live in a sexist world. And I hate to say this, but I really feel like women are not viewed as full human beings. At least not as fully as men are. :-\ And I think it would be impossible for women or anyone growing up as a woman to not be affected by this. I mean, things are better for women now. But it's like race issues which are better than they were but - I don't think you can come into this world as part of a marginalized group and not be affected. Just like race, some clearly have it worse than others, but they're all affected by it.
Well I think the reason I said what I said before is because yeah, women are affected by it, but also most women don't have the same problems you do (can't even upload a picture of myself online, can't bear to see myself in a video etc.) which you said was a problem for you even before you transitioned and this really hit you. Part of that can't be just about being FAAB, even if that is what triggers it. Anyway I was surprised because I've talked to another FTM (one, not saying this happens often) who also said that before, that he didn't want people to see him, that his whole life he felt hideous and just was very uncomfortable with being judged on his appearance. Of course also with being sexualized. It was a specific and deep trigger to him. And I do think it was about being raised female, but also that it was a unique problem for him that was a mix of that and other things.
I just want to reiterate that, at least to me, you don't have to prove that the problem exists :) probably not to a lot of other people on this forum either, though I can't speak for them, but chances are if they transitioned and they pass, they have experienced and understand to some extent what people view them as. I really don't know though...
But, at the same time, like I said before, I feel like you're sort of lecturing. Do you want to discuss it or are you still trying to convince somebody that it happens at all? Cuz in my view you are preaching to the choir. I'm really sorry if I'm confused about what you meant, it's just that the way you write your posts always feels like you are trying to prove something to somebody and I don't totally get why, like do you think people don't believe you or don't understand? Idk. Though I also get that actually a lot of people are arguing about stuff in this thread, which seems weird too. Mmmh, no clue where I'm going with this, hah. :x
Quote from: sad panda on April 08, 2014, 11:12:56 PM
Well I think the reason I said what I said before is because yeah, women are affected by it, but also most women don't have the same problems you do (can't even upload a picture of myself online, can't bear to see myself in a video etc.) which you said was a problem for you even before you transitioned and this really hit you. Part of that can't be just about being FAAB, even if that is what triggers it. Anyway I was surprised because I've talked to another FTM (one, not saying this happens often) who also said that before, that he didn't want people to see him, that his whole life he felt hideous and just was very uncomfortable with being judged on his appearance. Of course also with being sexualized. It was a specific and deep trigger to him. And I do think it was about being raised female, but also that it was a unique problem for him that was a mix of that and other things.
I just want to reiterate that, at least to me, you don't have to prove that the problem exists :) probably not to a lot of other people on this forum either, though I can't speak for them, but chances are if they transitioned and they pass, they have experienced and understand to some extent what people view them as. I really don't know though...
But, at the same time, like I said before, I feel like you're sort of lecturing. Do you want to discuss it or are you still trying to convince somebody that it happens at all? Cuz in my view you are preaching to the choir. I'm really sorry if I'm confused about what you meant, it's just that the way you write your posts always feels like you are trying to prove something to somebody and I don't totally get why, like do you think people don't believe you or don't understand? Idk. Though I also get that actually a lot of people are arguing about stuff in this thread, which seems weird too. Mmmh, no clue where I'm going with this, hah. :x
Well, that part - I really don't know where that comes from. I think the picture part is somehow to do with being trans. And it all got twisted somehow. I know it's not normal though.
The lecturing - well I guess I don't feel believed. But I'm not really trying to lecture anyone, it sounds the same way with me ranting in my journal to no one. I guess I'm just upset about it. :embarrassed:
Awww, ok I see what you mean. :c *hugs*
This is for you FA :icon_hug:
You mean more here than you can believe! :)
Quote from: FA on April 07, 2014, 01:52:30 PMAnd like I said, this isn't something anyone talks about. So it's not like women are just going to bring this up in conversation. And I doubt most cis women (except maybe some serious feminists) actively think about this at all. I didn't until now. It was just the way things are. But we don't need people talking about it as proof. The beauty and anti-aging industries, the cosmetic surgeons doing excellent business, the little girls with eating disorders, the billboards, Victoria's Secret, all the 40 year old men leaving their wives for the hot young secretaries - this is our proof that this is a real thing. It's everywhere. And women grow up feeling it.
I feel like an alien sometimes. I grew up with two feminists for parents. I went to an arts high school and a liberal arts university. This stuff is like... 1+1=2, from my perspective. It is the basic assumption upon which you have conversations. This ->-bleeped-<- isn't just a theory. It has so much data behind it that I don't know why people even argue on the topic anymore. It feels like over-the-top mainstream. I mean DOVE did a "real beauty" campaign for goodness sake. DOVE!
So these boards? Culture shock. Seriously. I generally avoid threads like these on principle because they just make me feel frustrated and weird.
Transitioning as an assigned male person to a perceived female person is like giving back a winning lottery ticket. If anyone ever needed proof of my intent, transitioning while perfectly aware of exactly how bad it was going to get is it. Or possibly proof of insanity? Who knows. Working to be seen as a potted plant. Obviously a brilliant life decision.
Dude, one of the first things my mum said to me was "you're going to be so beautiful." (Yes, my mum is awesome and accepting.) My mum who has literally written books on feminism... The programming runs so deep, I don't even know.
And in me too. My crazy waffling over getting a boob job alone would be proof of that. Why do I even care how big my tits are, nah? Gah. I dunno man, I think it's inside most trans women's heads too. That's why so many of us can't see it. Or maybe it's just me, I shouldn't generalize. But it's in me deep. I just turned 30. That was fun.
I think cis guys see it the most clearly. But most of them think it's the way it should be. They can see it clear from the outside. So perfectly clear. From the outside we are flesh.
To have a VAGINA and NOT a penis, PERIOD!
Quote from: Evolving Beauty on April 09, 2014, 05:16:30 AM
To have a VAGINA and NOT a penis, PERIOD!
That's ridiculous, quite surprised someone who is trans would reduce gender to someone's genitals.
Quote from: Sarah7 on April 09, 2014, 04:56:06 AM
Dude, one of the first things my mum said to me was "you're going to be so beautiful." (Yes, my mum is awesome and accepting.) My mum who has literally written books on feminism... The programming runs so deep, I don't even know.
And in me too. My crazy waffling over getting a boob job alone would be proof of that.
After reading some of Julia Serrano's stuff, I've begun to see this all in a different way (and I DO consider myself a feminist, BTW).
There are two issues that feminists tend to confuse:
1. Women, for whatever reason, tend to seek and place importance on their own beauty.
2. Women are judged by their looks.
Yes, the second is a severe problem, as FA and others have pointed out. No, women should not be judged by looks any more than men should be judged by fighting ability, bravery, athletic prowess, earning potential, etc.
But I see absolutely NOTHING wrong with the first. The pursuit of beauty is frivolous, yes, but so is the pursuit of athletic prowess, level 126 on the latest video game, or even zillions more dollars than you can spend in your lifetime. I find decorating my body with clothes and jewelry that make me feel good and show my best side to the world boosts my confidence, and is FUN. There is something uniquely feminine about this. I didn't have this drive when I lived as a man.
I don't see anything non-feminist about a boob job. If having bigger breasts make you feel better, you should have bigger breasts. If feminists have a problem with us doing what makes us feel good they've crossed over the boundary between fighting for our rights and trying to control our behavior.
Quote from: FA on April 09, 2014, 01:07:27 AM
Well, that part - I really don't know where that comes from. I think the picture part is somehow to do with being trans. And it all got twisted somehow. I know it's not normal though.
The lecturing - well I guess I don't feel believed. But I'm not really trying to lecture anyone, it sounds the same way with me ranting in my journal to no one. I guess I'm just upset about it. :embarrassed:
That I can understand. When multiple personal struggles overlap it can be difficult to sort it all out in your head.
For me, despite having various coping mechanism in place to accept my appearance due to NF, when it collides with my GD and the realities I face living as a woman it all becomes a painful mess. I often have found myself having to re-learn and re-invent coping mechanisms and thought process that have been accumulating since early childhood.
It has been a challenge for me to see your point of view. I think a lot of it is because it is hard to hear someone having gone through hell because of something that I've wanted since my earliest memory. It shines a light into some corners of my mind that I want to avoid.
It's all one big painful and often confusing mess. The reality is though that I know I need to look at that more closely to be able to move on.
Quote from: suzifrommd on April 09, 2014, 06:33:04 AM
After reading some of Julia Serrano's stuff, I've begun to see this all in a different way (and I DO consider myself a feminist, BTW).
There are two issues that feminists tend to confuse:
1. Women, for whatever reason, tend to seek and place importance on their own beauty.
2. Women are judged by their looks.
Yes, the second is a severe problem, as FA and others have pointed out. No, women should not be judged by looks any more than men should be judged by fighting ability, bravery, athletic prowess, earning potential, etc.
But I see absolutely NOTHING wrong with the first. The pursuit of beauty is frivolous, yes, but so is the pursuit of athletic prowess, level 126 on the latest video game, or even zillions more dollars than you can spend in your lifetime. I find decorating my body with clothes and jewelry that make me feel good and show my best side to the world boosts my confidence, and is FUN. There is something uniquely feminine about this. I didn't have this drive when I lived as a man.
I don't see anything non-feminist about a boob job. If having bigger breasts make you feel better, you should have bigger breasts. If feminists have a problem with us doing what makes us feel good they've crossed over the boundary between fighting for our rights and trying to control our behavior.
The thing is that the first can easily turn into something damaging.
A women can enjoy clothing, makeup and jewelry and like you said there is nothing wrong with that, but what happens when she starts to believe that she
needs to do all of that. What about when she starts to believe that she
needs breast augmentation or any other cosmetic procedure just to feel like she has value? Where do you think this comes from?
The two issues you mention really aren't that separate when you look at it.
Quote from: Sarah7 on April 09, 2014, 04:56:06 AM
Quote from: FA on April 07, 2014, 01:52:30 PMAnd like I said, this isn't something anyone talks about. So it's not like women are just going to bring this up in conversation. And I doubt most cis women (except maybe some serious feminists) actively think about this at all. I didn't until now. It was just the way things are. But we don't need people talking about it as proof. The beauty and anti-aging industries, the cosmetic surgeons doing excellent business, the little girls with eating disorders, the billboards, Victoria's Secret, all the 40 year old men leaving their wives for the hot young secretaries - this is our proof that this is a real thing. It's everywhere. And women grow up feeling it.
I feel like an alien sometimes. I grew up with two feminists for parents. I went to an arts high school and a liberal arts university. This stuff is like... 1+1=2, from my perspective. It is the basic assumption upon which you have conversations. This ->-bleeped-<- isn't just a theory. It has so much data behind it that I don't know why people even argue on the topic anymore. It feels like over-the-top mainstream. I mean DOVE did a "real beauty" campaign for goodness sake. DOVE!
So these boards? Culture shock. Seriously. I generally avoid threads like these on principle because they just make me feel frustrated and weird.
Transitioning as an assigned male person to a perceived female person is like giving back a winning lottery ticket. If anyone ever needed proof of my intent, transitioning while perfectly aware of exactly how bad it was going to get is it. Or possibly proof of insanity? Who knows. Working to be seen as a potted plant. Obviously a brilliant life decision.
Dude, one of the first things my mum said to me was "you're going to be so beautiful." (Yes, my mum is awesome and accepting.) My mum who has literally written books on feminism... The programming runs so deep, I don't even know.
And in me too. My crazy waffling over getting a boob job alone would be proof of that. Why do I even care how big my tits are, nah? Gah. I dunno man, I think it's inside most trans women's heads too. That's why so many of us can't see it. Or maybe it's just me, I shouldn't generalize. But it's in me deep. I just turned 30. That was fun.
I think cis guys see it the most clearly. But most of them think it's the way it should be. They can see it clear from the outside. So perfectly clear. From the outside we are flesh.
Thanks hon.
I think one reason I keep going on about this is that when I first read about this stuff - after transition; some of the hurt lifted. And talking about it, acknowledging it, helps. So I guess that's one reason I keep arguing about it. It hurts more when you don't realize this is happening - people living as women tend to internalize it. So the woman just feels bad for not winning a losing battle. For not being physically perfect.
And the whole thing has such shame around it - she's shamed if she's 'vain' and wears makeup, gets work done, etc. But also shamed if she doesn't. And even a natural process - getting older, takes on a kind of shame for women. Maybe it's scarier for young women though - I don't know. The time frame we're supposed to stay in from about 16-25, just grows shorter and shorter. I think as stupid as it sounds, part of it is the media bombardment. We mostly see women in the above age range, maybe a few older ones. But mostly really young, impossibly perfect ones everywhere. But real flesh is not perfect and airbrushed and forever 16. And even if other people don't really see women this way -Women think they do. So women who don't fit the increasingly narrow mold rarely see any representation of themselves. Even the most celebrated women in media like Madonna and Angelina Jolie aren't allowed to age gracefully without shaming. So most the older women who are shown are still airbrushed into oblivion (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/19/women-aging-the-counselor-posters_n_3956905.html).
I feel bad talking about this cause I fear giving the women here these awful messages. But when I first read about this phenomenon and that it's a real thing, some of the ingrained pain lifted.
Quote from: FA on April 09, 2014, 07:46:57 AM
I feel bad talking about this cause I fear giving the women here these awful messages.
It is not YOU who is at fault - it is the media / beauty industry who can only sell their products by pushing the beauty myth. And it is spreading, as I said before, men are now being targeted too
"There is more pressure on men from magazines with celebrities and male models to have the 'ideal' body image," http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-26935687
By talking about this stuff, by posting about it here, you can maybe increase the awareness of this problem amongst the younger transwomen who are probably the most likely to succumb to it.
Quote from: ErinM on April 09, 2014, 07:04:09 AM
That I can understand. When multiple personal struggles overlap it can be difficult to sort it all out in your head.
For me, despite having various coping mechanism in place to accept my appearance due to NF, when it collides with my GD and the realities I face living as a woman it all becomes a painful mess. I often have found myself having to re-learn and re-invent coping mechanisms and thought process that have been accumulating since early childhood.
It has been a challenge for me to see your point of view. I think a lot of it is because it is hard to hear someone having gone through hell because of something that I've wanted since my earliest memory. It shines a light into some corners of my mind that I want to avoid.
It's all one big painful and often confusing mess. The reality is though that I know I need to look at that more closely to be able to move on.
Well, I've noticed something about when trans women talk about male programming and I do the reverse. I heard a lot from trans women that really scared me before transition. Because it sounded like I was going to be bombarded with all that in a very literal way. But it didn't happen that way. I still get and feel a lot of the expectations. But not as brutally as it sounded from some of the ladies. And I think part of that is probably that much of this programming takes place as kids. Male programming and all that probably is very cutthroat and brutal for boys and very young men. So most of the expectations and feelings I'm getting are internally. Other than a few odd looks, I really haven't had them literally enforced, you know?
I think this is where the disconnect and disbelief has come in with me talking about this. It's something that seems a lot more casual and unspoken. Like something that's just normal. Like for instance, a lot of guys don't understand why their pretty, skinny girlfriend is always asking if she looks fat and feels like she must take hours in the bathroom before showing her face anywhere. And she doesn't understand that he's got to act a certain way to keep up his image. Or she may overhear him with his friends going on about some girl's ass. And not realize that he's got to join in or at least nod and make some comment. It's just not on for him to do or say anything else. So part of it may be just not growing up that way, so it's harder to see until you're there and faced with the same things. And on both sides, it's probably a lot more pronounced the younger you are. A lot of the younger women here seem to get what I'm saying. And that's probably because it's more pronounced for them.
And of course, so many things go into it and someone's experience of it. Culture, country, environment, age, even sexuality - there was a study awhile back that showed that heterosexual women and gay women are affected a little differently. And that gay men are affected differently than straight men. As far as body image stuff. (god I'm so bad about retrieving these things when I need them). If true, it would make sense since men tend to focus more on looks and tend to prefer youthful partners. So, people competing for men probably have a little bit different experience.
And when you throw being trans into it - I probably did experience it differently than cis women. And I was turned on by women, so when I hit puberty I was like 'woah seeing tits everywhere!' But then also having tits - well that probably messed with things. Because I was objectifying women in a way but also becoming one... (later, I got into men too).
And of course for trans women - how to differentiate what is dysphoria over male residuals and what is the whole beauty trap? In a world where cis women are never good enough... having to deal with fears of looking male and all that op top of it...
And Erin, it must also be very different for you growing up with NF. And I can see how transition would throw a monkey wrench into all that all over again. But you and many others here seem to have gotten over one hurdle I can't seem to - posting a picture. Now, I probably wouldn't post one anyway due to privacy. But I'm unable to anywhere. And the main reason is, I don't think I could bear to see my face with every post. Now this thing is probably not just growing up female. Obviously teen girls are posting selfies everywhere. So maybe it was being trans, or maybe I'm just really out there. :laugh:
Quote from: stephaniec on April 09, 2014, 09:31:24 AM
I post my picture because I like seeing myself in the real world with breasts. I've wanted to be female all my conscious life so every little bit helps.
Quote from: FA on April 09, 2014, 09:23:40 AM
Well, I've noticed something about when trans women talk about male programming and I do the reverse. I heard a lot from trans women that really scared me before transition. Because it sounded like I was going to be bombarded with all that in a very literal way. But it didn't happen that way. I still get and feel a lot of the expectations. But not as brutally as it sounded from some of the ladies. And I think part of that is probably that much of this programming takes place as kids. Male programming and all that probably is very cutthroat and brutal for boys and very young men. So most of the expectations and feelings I'm getting are internally. Other than a few odd looks, I really haven't had them literally enforced, you know?
I can see where you are coming from on this and I think it contains a lot of truth. I think comparing trans-folk to cis-folk as far as childhood and puberty goes is probably not that reliable. I think that the disconnect between our brains and our bodies amplifies the social programming. As sure as heck we do not fit into our assigned roles (that is the basis of our problem after all) so it is not surprising that we all find the 'programming' so repellent.
Quote from: FA on April 09, 2014, 09:23:40 AMI think this is where the disconnect and disbelief has come in with me talking about this. It's something that seems a lot more casual and unspoken. Like something that's just normal. Like for instance, a lot of guys don't understand why their pretty, skinny girlfriend is always asking if she looks fat and feels like she must take hours in the bathroom before showing her face anywhere. And she doesn't understand that he's got to act a certain way to keep up his image. Or she may overhear him with his friends going on about some girl's ass. And not realize that he's got to join in or at least nod and make some comment. It's just not on for him to do or say anything else. So part of it may be just not growing up that way,
Indeed. And for many, these may be the behaviours that they 'aspire' to. The behaviours that mark their transition from adolescence to adulthood. We know that youth requires role models to guide them. Most people never question what they are learning from their role-models, but for trans-folk it can be a horrific experience. I can certainly remember how it made me feel so false but, like you say, at that age you cannot get too far out of line so you mouth the platitudes and use the behaviours that you do not like or believe in because you so desperately need some form of acceptance. No wonder I was a 'hermit' for part of my teenage years.
Quote from: FA on April 09, 2014, 09:23:40 AMAnd of course for trans women - how to differentiate what is dysphoria over male residuals and what is the whole beauty trap? In a world where cis women are never good enough... having to deal with fears of looking male and all that op top of it...
I think age is a factor in this. Most of the trans-women I know are middle aged because like anyone else, I socialise with those near my own age. Myself and those I know like to look tidy and presentable, but we never intend to compete in the beauty stakes like 20-something women (cis or trans). So I suspect that this makes us a bit more immune to the depredations of the beauty industry. To me, make up and other stuff is a tool to be used to improve how I feel about me myself, nothing more. The industry can prate away about perfect bodies and ideal looks until they are blue in the face because I
know I will never be perfect so they gain no traction with me.
However, no matter what I think about the socialisation that was forced on me, I will not accept any blame for it. I refused to indulge in as much of it as I could although I certainly had my share of acting like an assh*le towards women because I believed some of what I was told, but I did not know better. I tried to "man up" and be mega-blokey and I am sure that I made some girls and women feel bad but it made me fit my "assigned" social group. Even so my heart was not in it and I could not sustain it so as soon as I was old enough not to need approval I stopped acting like a typical young male. I do not accept blame for it because it was how I was meant to act according society and I could not resist the whole world. I lacked the moral strength and courage. Once into my 20s I was freer to act and express myself so the "man's man" focused on "manly" things like driving, getting a pilot's licence, being a businessman and so on.
I was a victim of my circumstances and I had little choice in those until I was old enough and educated enough to make my choices count.
My past is behind me. Nowadays I have the confidence to look the world in the eye, so I make up for my earlier blunders by helping those I can.
I cannot rewrite history, but I can write the future.
Quote from: provizora3 on April 09, 2014, 10:15:31 AM
However, no matter what I think about the socialisation that was forced on me, I will not accept any blame for it. I refused to indulge in as much of it as I could although I certainly had my share of acting like an assh*le towards women because I believed some of what I was told, but I did not know better. I tried to "man up" and be mega-blokey and I am sure that I made some girls and women feel bad but it made me fit my "assigned" social group. Even so my heart was not in it and I could not sustain it so as soon as I was old enough not to need approval I stopped acting like a typical young male. I do not accept blame for it because it was how I was meant to act according society and I could not resist the whole world. I lacked the moral strength and courage. Once into my 20s I was freer to act and express myself so the "man's man" focused on "manly" things like driving, getting a pilot's licence, being a businessman and so on.
I was a victim of my circumstances and I had little choice in those until I was old enough and educated enough to make my choices count.
My past is behind me. Nowadays I have the confidence to look the world in the eye, so I make up for my earlier blunders by helping those I can.
I cannot rewrite history, but I can write the future.
I see what you're saying. And I might be reading it wrong, but it just occurred to me that maybe one of the issues that comes up talking about this is that somehow MAAB people may be taking these subjects as blaming. When there is none. I mean, we don't blame women or FAAB people for men being expected to act a certain way. Even though female preference has probably had some hand in the evolution of male culture. Women tend to prefer the most powerful male who's at the top of the pack. So men were jockeying for position to get the women. So, in a similar way men are of course wired to want the most fertile women for propagation of the species. Scientifically somehow beauty was a marker for health and of course she would need to still be young and fertile.
So, I don't know how this all came to be, but in a male dominated culture the focus is on how men view women. In a female dominated culture, it would probably be the other way around. Maybe it would be even more focused males' strength and prowess. Maybe strength contests would be like beauty contests and seen as degrading. Or maybe they would be expected to go around with their packages hanging out. So, I guess what I'm trying to say is it's just the way things ended up. And we really don't know how it ended up that way. Other than that it probably has something to do with men being stronger and built to conquer and women built to make the babies.
But I don't think men are to blame. Not like that. And certainly not individual men or people assigned male. I mean, okay maybe whichever men decided back in the day to subjugate women. But I doubt it happened just like that. Even people who make these ads and things are not seriously thinking, 'I want to degrade women and make them feel bad about themselves'. (at least I hope not!) It's just what sells.
And the locker room kind of talk thing - I started experiencing that kind of thing when I started passing. And mostly, it just has the feeling of something that's expected. And kind of like a bonding thing. And definitely the kind of thing that you just go along with. I even used to kind of engage in that kind of thing with guys as a woman. I was bi, so. I mean unless he's a wife beater or rapist or something, I don't think most men seriously mean it to hurt or degrade women. Though it may contribute to rape culture and less empathy for women. Because anytime someone is seen as an object...
But the vast majority of the comments and body policing I got came from women. And just the general culture. It's weird for me, because I know a lot of women have been seriously abused by men. But for me, it's more 'abused by culture' I guess. I mean, I got a few body policing comments from men. But it's mostly the general culture that hurt me. And not any men. You know?
Quote from: FA on April 09, 2014, 11:16:36 AM
I see what you're saying. And I might be reading it wrong,
.....
But I don't think men are to blame. Not like that.
I am not defending "men". When I said
"However, no matter what I think about the socialisation that was forced on me, I will not accept any blame for it" I meant ME personally. It was done
to me and perhaps I thought I wanted it, but I was wrong and I learned that later when I had more sense. I accepted it through ignorance and lack of experience.
So, although I made a mistake in my early treatment of women, although I acted like a total jerk as a teenager, although I bought into a social meme that was utterly wrong for me, it is behind me now and I cannot change it. I am glad that I was bright enough to realise how wrong it was and that I never really hurt anyone, I was just an insensitive idiot up to the age of 20 or so. It is a matter of regret, but the past is the past I will not flog myself for mistakes made then because I did not know any better. I hope you can similarly let go of your past demons too...
Quote from: provizora3 on April 09, 2014, 11:45:33 AM
Quote from: FA on April 09, 2014, 11:16:36 AM
I see what you're saying. And I might be reading it wrong,
.....
But I don't think men are to blame. Not like that.
I am not defending "men". When I said "However, no matter what I think about the socialisation that was forced on me, I will not accept any blame for it" I meant ME personally. It was done to me and perhaps I thought I wanted it, but I was wrong and I learned that later when I had more sense. I accepted it through ignorance and lack of experience.
So, although I made a mistake in my early treatment of women, although I acted like a total jerk as a teenager, although I bought into a social meme that was utterly wrong for me, it is behind me now and I cannot change it. I am glad that I was bright enough to realise how wrong it was and that I never really hurt anyone, I was just an insensitive idiot up to the age of 20 or so. It is a matter of regret, but the past is the past I will not flog myself for mistakes made then because I did not know any better. I hope you can similarly let go of your past demons too...
Oh sorry, I may have misunderstood. And just to be clear - when I said 'men' I wasn't meaning to call you or trans women men or anything. I just meant I thought you were saying you weren't going to apologize for you acted as someone socialized as MAAB. And I just know that's kind of sticky subject with some feminists trying to put blame on MAAB people. So, I just wanted to make it clear that that's not what I'm talking about at all. Sorry if I completely misunderstood.
Quote from: FA on April 09, 2014, 09:23:40 AM
Well, I've noticed something about when trans women talk about male programming and I do the reverse. I heard a lot from trans women that really scared me before transition. Because it sounded like I was going to be bombarded with all that in a very literal way. But it didn't happen that way. I still get and feel a lot of the expectations. But not as brutally as it sounded from some of the ladies. And I think part of that is probably that much of this programming takes place as kids. Male programming and all that probably is very cutthroat and brutal for boys and very young men. So most of the expectations and feelings I'm getting are internally. Other than a few odd looks, I really haven't had them literally enforced, you know?
I think this is where the disconnect and disbelief has come in with me talking about this. It's something that seems a lot more casual and unspoken. Like something that's just normal. Like for instance, a lot of guys don't understand why their pretty, skinny girlfriend is always asking if she looks fat and feels like she must take hours in the bathroom before showing her face anywhere. And she doesn't understand that he's got to act a certain way to keep up his image. Or she may overhear him with his friends going on about some girl's ass. And not realize that he's got to join in or at least nod and make some comment. It's just not on for him to do or say anything else. So part of it may be just not growing up that way, so it's harder to see until you're there and faced with the same things. And on both sides, it's probably a lot more pronounced the younger you are. A lot of the younger women here seem to get what I'm saying. And that's probably because it's more pronounced for them.
And of course, so many things go into it and someone's experience of it. Culture, country, environment, age, even sexuality - there was a study awhile back that showed that heterosexual women and gay women are affected a little differently. And that gay men are affected differently than straight men. As far as body image stuff. (god I'm so bad about retrieving these things when I need them). If true, it would make sense since men tend to focus more on looks and tend to prefer youthful partners. So, people competing for men probably have a little bit different experience.
And when you throw being trans into it - I probably did experience it differently than cis women. And I was turned on by women, so when I hit puberty I was like 'woah seeing tits everywhere!' But then also having tits - well that probably messed with things. Because I was objectifying women in a way but also becoming one... (later, I got into men too).
And of course for trans women - how to differentiate what is dysphoria over male residuals and what is the whole beauty trap? In a world where cis women are never good enough... having to deal with fears of looking male and all that op top of it...
And Erin, it must also be very different for you growing up with NF. And I can see how transition would throw a monkey wrench into all that all over again. But you and many others here seem to have gotten over one hurdle I can't seem to - posting a picture. Now, I probably wouldn't post one anyway due to privacy. But I'm unable to anywhere. And the main reason is, I don't think I could bear to see my face with every post. Now this thing is probably not just growing up female. Obviously teen girls are posting selfies everywhere. So maybe it was being trans, or maybe I'm just really out there. :laugh:
I would have to agree that culture seems to play a factor in it. Reading accounts here and on an NF support group I'm left with the impression that some areas of the US are far more critical of other in general than the are here in a major Canadian city.
Environment plays a role me me as well. Even when I was going through denial phases, I still internalized a lot of messages directed at females on the "value" of good looks. Thankfully this was countered by having my mother as a role model. She never seemed to play along with the notion. I never saw her wear makeup except for a few times in the early 80's. Any talk of dieting in our house was for the sake if better health rather than vanity.
One I started to give my self permission to see myself as a woman, all of those internalized messages from the mass media started to bubble to the surface. I feel the pressure to put more effort into my appearance with makeup, actually styling my hair, jewelry and the whole nine yards. I know better, yet those feeling are there and I'm left asking where they are really coming from.
That video you posted hit me on so many levels from my past. I too used to feel like I was some kind of creature that would be better off locked up somewhere.
I wished (and still do) that I could even come remotely close to being as beautiful and feminine looking as that woman. That somehow I would be loveable by someone other than my parents and a few friends if I looked that way, that I would have a chance at finally attracting someone - even if it was (is) for the wrong reasons.
And finally that song came out when I was 13 and starting to realize that there were a lot of things about being a male that I could not fake. I often felt like I had nothing to offer and would be that obnoxious kid in class who corrected the teacher only because I felt that's all I had going for me.
I went through two suicide attempts and a six month stint in a psychiatric ward for teenagers, and started to self medicate pot for most of my adulthood when I finally left.
I have a lot of skills to cope, but it proves to be an ongoing battle for me to maintain my self esteem. I have made a lot of strides, but I feel I still have so far to go. I get so frustrated some times because I feel it shouldn't be such a struggle.
Sorry, I guess I have my own ranting pent up.
Quote from: FA on April 09, 2014, 12:07:56 PM
Oh sorry, I may have misunderstood. And just to be clear - when I said 'men' I wasn't meaning to call you or trans women men or anything. I just meant I thought you were saying you weren't going to apologize for you acted as someone socialized as MAAB. And I just know that's kind of sticky subject with some feminists trying to put blame on MAAB people. So, I just wanted to make it clear that that's not what I'm talking about at all. Sorry if I completely misunderstood.
I never thought you were calling me a man.... but thanks for the clarification anyway.
Quote from: ErinM on April 09, 2014, 12:46:46 PM
I would have to agree that culture seems to play a factor in it. Reading accounts here and on an NF support group I'm left with the impression that some areas of the US are far more critical of other in general than the are here in a major Canadian city.
Environment plays a role me me as well. Even when I was going through denial phases, I still internalized a lot of messages directed at females on the "value" of good looks. Thankfully this was countered by having my mother as a role model. She never seemed to play along with the notion. I never saw her wear makeup except for a few times in the early 80's. Any talk of dieting in our house was for the sake if better health rather than vanity.
One I started to give my self permission to see myself as a woman, all of those internalized messages from the mass media started to bubble to the surface. I feel the pressure to put more effort into my appearance with makeup, actually styling my hair, jewelry and the whole nine yards. I know better, yet those feeling are there and I'm left asking where they are really coming from.
That video you posted hit me on so many levels from my past. I too used to feel like I was some kind of creature that would be better off locked up somewhere.
I wished (and still do) that I could even come remotely close to being as beautiful and feminine looking as that woman. That somehow I would be loveable by someone other than my parents and a few friends if I looked that way, that I would have a chance at finally attracting someone - even if it was (is) for the wrong reasons.
And finally that song came out when I was 13 and starting to realize that there were a lot of things about being a male that I could not fake. I often felt like I had nothing to offer and would be that obnoxious kid in class who corrected the teacher only because I felt that's all I had going for me.
I went through two suicide attempts and a six month stint in a psychiatric ward for teenagers, and started to self medicate pot for most of my adulthood when I finally left.
I have a lot of skills to cope, but it proves to be an ongoing battle for me to maintain my self esteem. I have made a lot of strides, but I feel I still have so far to go. I get so frustrated some times because I feel it shouldn't be such a struggle.
Sorry, I guess I have my own ranting pent up.
Aww that's okay hon. We all need to vent and this has been an emotional thread. The video - I've posted it a few times on here. Because I identify so much with it. I've always felt like that - like I'm not fit to be seen and just want to hide away. The weird thing for me is I felt this as much when everyone said I was beautiful as now when I'm fat and unattractive. Maybe it's a trans thing for me. I was also horribly bullied and treated like a monster. For not being girly. For being ugly. For being pretty.
I know it's probably very different from growing up with the condition you did. I can't imagine what that's like. And I don't know what it's like to be a trans woman. I know the obstacles are a lot harder, physically and otherwise. And it just sucks in general more for trans women.
Quote from: FA on April 09, 2014, 01:43:07 PM
Aww that's okay hon. We all need to vent and this has been an emotional thread. The video - I've posted it a few times on here. Because I identify so much with it. I've always felt like that - like I'm not fit to be seen and just want to hide away. The weird thing for me is I felt this as much when everyone said I was beautiful as now when I'm fat and unattractive. Maybe it's a trans thing for me. I was also horribly bullied and treated like a monster. For not being girly. For being ugly. For being pretty.
I know it's probably very different from growing up with the condition you did. I can't imagine what that's like. And I don't know what it's like to be a trans woman. I know the obstacles are a lot harder, physically and otherwise. And it just sucks in general more for trans women.
My situation is quite unique. Statistically speaking, I'm likely the only trans woman in Canada who also has NF. My mom always said I was special, but I don't think that's what she had in mind. ;D
Although our circumstances are so different I think you understand more than most. I know that resonated so deeply with what I've felt. It was a bit of an epiphany to at least partially see where you are coming from on more of a personal level.
Quote from: ErinM on April 09, 2014, 02:03:49 PM
Quote from: FA on April 09, 2014, 01:43:07 PM
Aww that's okay hon. We all need to vent and this has been an emotional thread. The video - I've posted it a few times on here. Because I identify so much with it. I've always felt like that - like I'm not fit to be seen and just want to hide away. The weird thing for me is I felt this as much when everyone said I was beautiful as now when I'm fat and unattractive. Maybe it's a trans thing for me. I was also horribly bullied and treated like a monster. For not being girly. For being ugly. For being pretty.
I know it's probably very different from growing up with the condition you did. I can't imagine what that's like. And I don't know what it's like to be a trans woman. I know the obstacles are a lot harder, physically and otherwise. And it just sucks in general more for trans women.
My situation is quite unique. Statistically speaking, I'm likely the only trans woman in Canada who also has NF. My mom always said I was special, but I don't think that's what she had in mind. ;D
Although our circumstances are so different I think you understand more than most. I know that resonated so deeply with what I've felt. It was a bit of an epiphany to at least partially see where you are coming from on more of a personal level.
Aww I think I'm going to cry again. I am. I know this thread has been pretty emotional, but thanks to you and the others, I don't feel so alone now. I've tossed and turned all night the last few nights, wondering if I said the wrong thing, embarrassed for opening up, afraid I've offended or hurt someone. Just feeling really raw and bad.
As for the woman in the video, I think everyone wants to be her - beautiful, desired, loved...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOikQWAL8qc
But I also think she's kind of unlucky. I mean, how does she know anyone really loves her for her? She even alludes to it - 'sooner or later, you'll be screwing around'. Because there's always someone hotter, younger... I think she would only seriously know she was loved when she's 40 and he doesn't leave her for some young, pretty thing. And um, I've been the 'young, pretty thing' with sugar daddies and such. So, I know how it is.
Quote from: provizora3 on April 07, 2014, 10:43:32 AM
I am sorry, but I have to disagree with how you are presenting this. You obvioulsy did not enjoy your childhood experiences, but as you turned out be FTM, is that really a surprise? The flipside is that I, as an MTF, did not exactly enjoy my pre-transition life either and so my view may be as slanted (and wrong) as yours.
We may both be guilty of projection - viewing things through our pain and expecting others to feel it too. Many do not feel the pain and angst we do.
Men have a cr*p time of it too. To me it was obvious that women held many of the trump cards in life. As a man I was assumed to be a rapist / murderer / sex pest / pervert / etc simply because I was a man. One example - I once picked up my daughter from nursery and I got taken to the side and interrogated whilst women who did not know the staff interrogating me simply wandered past to pick up kids. Women are not child molesters....
If a woman accuses a man of something it can wreck his life. There have been cases of slighted women making accusations against a man and the mud sticks. He is tainted for life. It very, very rarely happens the other way round. Women are trusted more because they are thought to be more caring and empathetic.
As a man I was expected to "become something", my career would define me and everything about me. It would be my life. I was expected to throw myself into it 24/7/365 and all other thing where subjugated to it. I was expected to "become" a lawyer or an engineer or an accountant. People asked me what I was, not who I was. It was as dehumanizing as being a "sex object", it was just less obvious.
When I expressed wanting to spend time with my family, it counted against me. "You do not have time for that" I was told. Basically, men are little more than self-propelled hammers or spanners. They are expected to subjugate everything to their careers.
You rail against beauty. Fair enough, it is overdone, no doubt about it. But how about watching yourself degrade into an ugliness so profound that it is fascinating? Of sweating profusely and smelling stale even when you wash? Of watching your skin degrade into a bristly, leathery, hairy covering? What about being dragged about by an unsleeping libido that means you are always having to force yourself to stay under control in case you lose it? What about the casual violence in male society? The emotional numbness? What about the constant battle for dominance through "doing someone else down"?
Being a bloke is no picnic and I for one am very, very glad to be leaving it behind forever.
This is gold. I love it. Can't forget the prospect of being reamed in divorce court as a man as well.
I've tired of trying to become alpha-dog all the time. I just appear to look like an overcompensating 5'5" guy. Too much trouble trying to compete than it's worth. I'd rather leverage my one gift of being androgynous and steer it towards something where I can truly transcend.
Quote from: FA on April 09, 2014, 02:35:53 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOikQWAL8qc
But I also think she's kind of unlucky. I mean, how does she know anyone really loves her for her? She even alludes to it - 'sooner or later, you'll be screwing around'. Because there's always someone hotter, younger... I think she would only seriously know she was loved when she's 40 and he doesn't leave her for some young, pretty thing. And um, I've been the 'young, pretty thing' with sugar daddies and such. So, I know how it is.
That sugar daddy is going to grow wrinkled, balding and beer bellied himself. We all age. Women do so more gracefully... She's hardly unlucky.
Quote from: Evelyn K on April 09, 2014, 02:45:12 PM
Quote from: FA on April 09, 2014, 02:35:53 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOikQWAL8qc
But I also think she's kind of unlucky. I mean, how does she know anyone really loves her for her? She even alludes to it - 'sooner or later, you'll be screwing around'. Because there's always someone hotter, younger... I think she would only seriously know she was loved when she's 40 and he doesn't leave her for some young, pretty thing. And um, I've been the 'young, pretty thing' with sugar daddies and such. So, I know how it is.
That sugar daddy is going to grow wrinkled, balding and beer bellied himself. We all age. Women do so more gracefully... She's hardly unlucky.
Maybe, but women are judged much more harshly for it. What I meant in regards to the video is that she seems really lucky, but being young and beautiful - how does she really know she's loved for herself? And that the real test would be if he's not screwing around with some young, pretty thing when she's 40 or so. Basically, that her luck is limited.
It doesn't matter, she can be a below average 4 on the 1 - 10 hotness beauty scale and she'll still have a line of beta males pining to wine and dine her.
Women > Men
Quote from: Evelyn K on April 09, 2014, 02:45:12 PM
That sugar daddy is going to grow wrinkled, balding and beer bellied himself. We all age. Women do so more gracefully... She's hardly unlucky.
OK, didn't watch the video, but I don't believe for a second that women necessarily age more gracefully. Some of us have more luck genetically than others and some take better care of themselves. I have seen plenty of older gentlemen whom age was kind to, some, umm, not so much (Look at Pink Floyd- Roger used to be funny looking, David was the cute one. Now look at them! Roger is handsome, David isn't.) The same goes for women. Sometimes I come across older people that look every day of their age, but they own it. They know it, have a great outlook and attitude and are fun to be around. The opposite can also be true, and I have seen symptoms of curmudgeonliness appear as early as 35.
Quote from: Evelyn K on April 09, 2014, 03:03:27 PM
It doesn't matter, she can be a below average 4 on the 1 - 10 hotness beauty scale and she'll still have a line of beta males pining to wine and dine her.
Women > Men
Oh, I don't doubt that. It's a lot harder for men to get (free) sex than women at any age. But her status quickly diminishes, and a lot of men are looking for 20 year olds to screw when their wives hit 40. I probably had half the married, middle aged men in my city.
A woman can always achieve status and be more independent as well (and beautiful).
Like Facebook COO Sheryl Sandberg
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Foi59.tinypic.com%2Fwalu15.jpg&hash=7c5040c63d8a0d402f8c13ad2ed70e7b0790451f)
What do you *really* want from life and how hard are you willing to achieve this?
If you allow yourself to be placed in buckets or preconceptions, then maybe you'll never get out of them.
Quote from: Evelyn K on April 09, 2014, 03:31:52 PM
A woman can always achieve status and be more independent as well (and beautiful).
Like Facebook COO Sheryl Sandberg
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Foi59.tinypic.com%2Fwalu15.jpg&hash=7c5040c63d8a0d402f8c13ad2ed70e7b0790451f)
What do you *really* want from life and how hard are you willing to achieve this?
If you allow yourself to be placed in buckets or preconceptions, then maybe you'll never get out of them.
I'm not sure how much that has to do with what I'm talking about. Women can be successful and beautiful at any age, true. Older women are beautiful, true. Sadly, that doesn't mean their husbands aren't shacking up with 20 year olds. It doesn't mean they are as valued by society and men in general as much as young women. It sucks, but it's true. I've lived it, I've been the young pretty thing to married men. I know.
I'll bet they would be really shocked to find out they were really having sex with a man.
Quote from: FA on April 09, 2014, 03:17:32 PM
I probably had half the married, middle aged men in my city.
Quote from: Randi on April 09, 2014, 03:51:18 PM
I'll bet they would be really shocked to find out they were really having sex with a man.
Quote from: FA on April 09, 2014, 03:17:32 PM
I probably had half the married, middle aged men in my city.
Well, we needed a little humor in this thread. :laugh:
Quote from: FA on April 09, 2014, 02:35:53 PM
Aww I think I'm going to cry again. I am. I know this thread has been pretty emotional, but thanks to you and the others, I don't feel so alone now. I've tossed and turned all night the last few nights, wondering if I said the wrong thing, embarrassed for opening up, afraid I've offended or hurt someone. Just feeling really raw and bad.
As for the woman in the video, I think everyone wants to be her - beautiful, desired, loved...
But I also think she's kind of unlucky. I mean, how does she know anyone really loves her for her? She even alludes to it - 'sooner or later, you'll be screwing around'. Because there's always someone hotter, younger... I think she would only seriously know she was loved when she's 40 and he doesn't leave her for some young, pretty thing. And um, I've been the 'young, pretty thing' with sugar daddies and such. So, I know how it is.
I know it hasn't been easy, these kinds of topics are emotional land mines. You should be proud for having the strength to say what needs to be said.
Personally, I'm actually glad you've opened up. Sure it was painful for me to read a lot of it, but I honestly feel that it's given me a different perspective and forced me to address an issue that I would rather ignore.
Thank you.
As for the woman, I know what you are saying. As I mentioned in a previous post, one way I've been fortunate is that I've been able known the friends that I now call family truly cared about me and that it's not surprising they stuck around after I came out and started transition.
Still society creates this illusion that physical attractiveness = value. It's reinforced so much that many people still find themselves believing or even invested in it even after learning the truth. Once you swallow the Kool-Aid that was forced down your throat it's hard to spit it back up.
Quote from: ErinM on April 09, 2014, 04:08:55 PM
I know it hasn't been easy, these kinds of topics are emotional land mines. You should be proud for having the strength to say what needs to be said.
Personally, I'm actually glad you've opened up. Sure it was painful for me to read a lot of it, but I honestly feel that it's given me a different perspective and forced me to address an issue that I would rather ignore.
Thank you.
As for the woman, I know what you are saying. As I mentioned in a previous post, one way I've been fortunate is that I've been able known the friends that I now call family truly cared about me and that it's not surprising they stuck around after I came out and started transition.
Still society creates this illusion that physical attractiveness = value. It's reinforced so much that many people still find themselves believing or even invested in it even after learning the truth. Once you swallow the Kool-Aid that was forced down your throat it's hard to spit it back up.
ditto
Quote from: FA on April 09, 2014, 03:56:02 PM
Well, we needed a little humor in this thread. :laugh:
so, what are you saying, you were just kidding
Quote from: stephaniec on April 09, 2014, 04:23:49 PM
Quote from: FA on April 09, 2014, 03:56:02 PM
Well, we needed a little humor in this thread. :laugh:
so, what are you saying, you were just kidding
No, I really had all those men... :laugh:
While "looks" are important to many men, and I'll admit looks can help, not all men are that way.
I hate to admit, I was a man at one time in my life, and I never dated a woman for her looks. I dated because I liked the "person" not the body.
Quote from: suzifrommd on April 09, 2014, 06:33:04 AM
After reading some of Julia Serrano's stuff, I've begun to see this all in a different way (and I DO consider myself a feminist, BTW).
There are two issues that feminists tend to confuse:
1. Women, for whatever reason, tend to seek and place importance on their own beauty.
2. Women are judged by their looks.
Yes, the second is a severe problem, as FA and others have pointed out. No, women should not be judged by looks any more than men should be judged by fighting ability, bravery, athletic prowess, earning potential, etc.
But I see absolutely NOTHING wrong with the first. The pursuit of beauty is frivolous, yes, but so is the pursuit of athletic prowess, level 126 on the latest video game, or even zillions more dollars than you can spend in your lifetime. I find decorating my body with clothes and jewelry that make me feel good and show my best side to the world boosts my confidence, and is FUN. There is something uniquely feminine about this. I didn't have this drive when I lived as a man.
I don't see anything non-feminist about a boob job. If having bigger breasts make you feel better, you should have bigger breasts. If feminists have a problem with us doing what makes us feel good they've crossed over the boundary between fighting for our rights and trying to control our behavior.
There are lots of things I agree with Julia Serrano about, and I think she's a lovely person, and meeting her was grand. But I definitely don't agree with everything.
Beauty is inherently a social construct that has evolved over time to fit different standards. There is no way of separating being judged from judging yourself. They both come from the same place. That's why we talk about internalized beauty standards. That means they have been absorbed from the society in which we exist. I.e. wanting to have big tits only exists in my head because having big tits is perceived as good within the society in which I exist. There have been periods in time when small tits were preferable: see the 1920s for example.
However, what I will say is that at the end of the day we have to live and survive and be mentally healthy in this world. Your body, your needs, your choice. When it comes to an individual, they need to do whatever works for them. That's why I support public health coverage of breast augmentation for trans women, and ->-bleeped-<- like that. You can't pretend like this world doesn't exist. It does and the rules are there. So you need to balance between working within those rules to make sure people are as okay as they can be, and at the same time questioning why those standards exist and how they can be shifted so we don't need to make those changes.
For myself, the battle isn't between ideology and desire. It's between competing needs. The need to feel as free as I can make myself of the standards of my society. And the need to feel like my body is beautiful and valuable. Will I feel better or worse about myself after a boob job? I'm not sure, yet. Which is why I still haven't done it.
Quote from: FA on April 09, 2014, 02:35:53 PM
Aww I think I'm going to cry again. I am. I know this thread has been pretty emotional, but thanks to you and the others, I don't feel so alone now. I've tossed and turned all night the last few nights, wondering if I said the wrong thing, embarrassed for opening up, afraid I've offended or hurt someone. Just feeling really raw and bad.
You know what I think about that already: talking helps get the bad ->-bleeped-<- out of your head. And that it's hard... that proves it takes courage.
I honestly just wish you had a more supportive environment here for this kind of topic. But I'm glad some folks are being kind.
Quote from: Sarah7 on April 09, 2014, 04:59:32 PM
You know what I think about that already: talking helps get the bad ->-bleeped-<- out of your head. And that it's hard... that proves it takes courage.
I honestly just wish you had a more supportive environment here for this kind of topic. But I'm glad some folks are being kind.
ditto