Good late night, guys and dolls.
Nichole W. brought up a good question in my previous thread: (well I actually asked the question) https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,22802.msg171960.html#new
Can one live as their target gender without passing?
(other than in ultra trans' accepting cities such as San Fran)
By 'without passing', I mean there's no ambiguity here: Transmen and transwomen who look like women and men respectively, regardless of the clothing, makeup, or anything.
The only way possible I would see is if you lived in a tribe or something where it was known by all you were your target gender and treated by all as the target gender regardless of looks.
Otherwise I don't see a way.
Your thoughts?
Can't imagine it myself. Only way I can imagine it is in a small town with a respectful community. I live in a small town with a respectful community, but I don't think I could've lived as male without the physical changes that have happened.
The other thing would be a large city and a micro community of accepting people.
Dennis
Good question Nero. I'm not going to get all philosophical and wax poetic here. I personally wouldn't be able to do that. The point, for me at least, is to kind of get to the point where my gender is basically a non-issue in my life. I'm not expecting to be Paris Hilton or anything, but I would like to get to the point where I can have daily interactions with people (you know, bank, supermarket, work, etc.) where they aren't like 'hmmmmm, is that a man or a woman?' But, who knows what will happen. I need to do this no matter how it turns out, but I truly believe I'll be ok.
I am encouraged from so many people on this site sharing their stories and experiences. Why wouldn't it happen to me? If I work hard at my transition, look at it the right way, I'll come through this thing just fine :) Meghan
PS, these are just my opinions, not trying to say this is how anyone else should feel, etc. ,etc. ad nauseum :)
if one doesnt pass as thier target sex, thier a man or woman, living as a woman or man. not a male living as male, or female as female, in my opinion, passing, or even SOME degree of passing is needed, unless you live in a bubble where everyone knows you, and can treat you right, and sees your true gender, its just not going to work.
R :police:
Possibly but in the world folk see you as you appear, i.e If you appear male then you will get treated as one and vice versa-I have only started to pass with the help of hormones etc,otherwise it would be very hard for me both mentally and practically.
To me its absolutely impossible
hi .... yes you can. i did for 5 years starting 11 years a go so what did i do i told those about me where we live . about my self what was going to happen. i did dress as a female just came out slowly we have here under 5000 thousand people so i was well known as a male not every one knew at that time just those who were there that i told & i did not have any back lash then when i did come out 5 years ago every thing was in place for me to do it then it was on t v & in the papers. so from then on in new zealand. i was well known & on the net as well this is not for every one to do. i know that . so for me it was right to do every thing that has happened to me has in the main .has been great .so you can do it ..just do your home work & just do it in a way that others are a part of whats going on & just take your time go slowly it will work out .....now this has worked for me you may do things in an other way we are not all the same in this i hope this may help you ...... noeleena...... :)
seeing as 90% of trans people don't remotely pass, i'd say yes, it is possible.
Quote from: Nero on December 05, 2007, 12:58:46 AM
Can one live as their target gender without passing?
That's pretty much up to the individual, their needs and their environment. There are people here for whom passing is THE entire point of transitioning. Others find that acceptance is more important. And for some, it's a package deal.
But as long as someone isn't doing this purely to mimick the appearance of their target sex, then sure, it's possible.
It seems people always assume that getting read means getting "sirred" (for M2Fs). But it's just not the case. When people notice a contradiction between presentation and biology, they have to make a decision as to how to treat you. And IMHO, if you're intentions are clear, people will generally go along with it.
Is that enough? I dunno, as I hate to feel "humoured" or AS IF. But I don't think we give people enough credit sometimes. Our gender issues are huge to us, but to everyone else... they just want to make their flight, pick up their kids, get their pizza, etc. Being read doesn't necessarily make their treatment of us any less genuine.
And again, many of us transition assuming that we WON'T ever pass. We transition expecting this to be the case. Yet... we do it anyway, as it seems better than the alternative.
"All I know is if I stay here like this, I'll die here like this" is one of my last journal entries before I committed to this.
~Kate~
Quote from: fruity on December 05, 2007, 09:14:00 AM
seeing as 90% of trans people don't remotely pass, i'd say yes, it is possible.
does them being the majority mean they can live as thier target gender?
provide some evidence that this 90% of transpeople are living as thier target gender...
R :police:
are you living as your target gender?
I AM my target gender now, theres no aiming, or living
R :police:
Quote from: Nero on December 05, 2007, 12:58:46 AM
Can one live as their target gender without passing?
(other than in ultra trans' accepting cities such as San Fran)
When I transitioned in 1993, I lived in a rural town in Virginia. No HRT, nada, I don't think I passed worth a damn, and everybody knew me anyway. People treated me as my target gender, or at least they were polite and humored me :D
Regrettably, I'm not living outwardly as target gender currently. My partner and close friends know who I am and accept me completely, however I'm invisible to most people. And I feel a lot of pain about that. If I were to live as openly androgyne now, my presentation would be pretty ambiguous, ie, I'd likely look like a "man in a dress". It's possible that I could probably get away with this where I live, not sure what is keeping me from it... other than fear, and also reality of financial repercussions or violence.
y2g
Quote from: fruity on December 05, 2007, 09:14:00 AM
seeing as 90% of trans people don't remotely pass, i'd say yes, it is possible.
I also would like to see some relible studies done that show this?
I think 90% is way off.
If your a hulking frame with strong male features,
no HRT will help and you won't pass.
But, from my experience, 20% are like that
initially (without FFS).
After FFS, the hulking frame won't help,
but their passability will increase to near 90-95%.
Also from my experience, in general,
about 75% will pass 90-98% without FFS
About 5% will pass 98%-100% without FFS.
about 2% will pass 100% (no doubts ever in anybody) without FFS.
i take it the 75 is with ffs not without?
and theres a rogue 2% Kiera honey :P
id like to say im in the first group, but im probably in the 5...
R :police:
What can an unpassing F2M do to make it obvious he identifies as a man, and not a butch lesbian?
~Kate~
i dont have any studies, i just have what my eyes see..
and when i say 90%, im actually being kind. If i was to base it
purely on my expeirence, i'd say that 100% do not pass, some look androgenous.. but thats the best i've seen. Maybe they could be women from a distance, but close up? no chance.
however, im willing to accept that some do, but im yet to meet one.
i've probably met about 30 or 40 now.
theres always something blantantly wrong, if its not the face, its the shoulders, voice or whatever.
i just call spades spades. The sooner transexuals face reality the better.
most have a strange image of themselves in their head, that is not represented to the outside world. They feel like a woman, and everyone else sees a man.
Thats where the problem is.
QuoteI've never personally met another trans person or at least one who didn't pass (thus I didn't know) so is there some specific area(s) "impassables" tend to congregate where I can go and possibly enlighten myself?
perhaps we are confusing what we define as 'passing' kiera?
when i say passing, i dont mean walking down the street, or sitting in a bar or on a bus.
i mean, interacting with and living with people 24/7 who are convinced you are female, no doubts. Anything else is not what i would call passing, its just that people are not observing you properly.
maybe for some people that is enough, but its not for me.
its just my experience that i am commenting on, nothing more.
Quote from: fruity on December 05, 2007, 03:37:37 PM
i dont have any studies, i just have what my eyes see..
and when i say 90%, im actually being kind. If i was to base it purely on my expeirence, i'd say that 100% do not pass, some look androgenous.. but thats the best i've seen. Maybe they could be women from a distance, but close up? no chance.
however, im willing to accept that some do, but im yet to meet one.
i've probably met about 30 or 40 now.
theres always something blantantly wrong, if its not the face, its the shoulders, voice or whatever.
i just call spades spades. The sooner transexuals face reality the better.
most have a strange image of themselves in their head, that is not represented to the outside world. They feel like a woman, and everyone else sees a man.
Thats where the problem is.
QuoteI've never personally met another trans person or at least one who didn't pass (thus I didn't know) so is there some specific area(s) "impassables" tend to congregate where I can go and possibly enlighten myself?
perhaps we are confusing what we define as 'passing' kiera?
when i say passing, i dont mean walking down the street, or sitting in a bar or on a bus.
i mean, interacting with and living with people 24/7 who are convinced you are female, no doubts. Anything else is not what i would call passing, its just that people are not observing you properly.
maybe for some people that is enough, but its not for me.
its just my experience that i am commenting on, nothing more.
I'm not one to join in on these conversations when they get to this point, but I feel I should say something. I don't care if you believe that 100% of transsexuals do not pass, due to some obvious blatant wrong that you happen to see in them. Regardless, holding people up to such high standards is rather elitist, not realistic. I'm curious myself as to what is 'blatantly wrong' with me? I have pics up in the bored girls post pics thread and theres a video of me speaking in my blog into a camera with a crappy mic. I would ask about several others here who I believe are absolutely amazing, but I won't bring up their names in case they do not wish to be critiqued by yourself.
Quoteholding people up to such high standards is rather elitist, not realistic.
its not about standards, its about people seeing a woman, instead of a man with a gender problem.. Perhaps your content with the latter, kat, but dont get angry if others are not.
I feel sorry for people in our situation, its horrible, but lying about the situation is not a way out of it. Telling each other how wonderful we all look, posting pictures of ourselves trying so hard to hide the real truth is something very destructive and is not going ultimately going to help anyone ever build any kind of self-esteem.
i've yet to see a passable transexual in real life, and yet, i seem to see several on the various internet forums i've entered. It doesnt add up to me. Something is not quite as it seems..
you know, self-esteem, comes from within, not from a camera lens or a webcamera, but from experiences in life, at least for me.
the first time i stood up infront of a class and made it clear i was female, was worth every single nice picture i ever took of myself x1000. I reminded myself of who i was, and i did it in front of lots of people. People saying nice things about how you look can make you feel good for a short while, but standing up for who you are makes you feel good permanently.
Now if my gender is ever questioned, i am beggining to be confident and can respond quickly and appropriately.
i suppose posting pictures on an internet forum is how many inexperienced transexuals start out, but you know, im no elitist, and i certainly don't set the standards, and likewise i didn't invent transexuality. I didn't design how men and women look. I didnt make some men have square jaws and others round ones.. Im not better than anyone else, i have my own transexual blatant problems too.
QuoteAttitude has a lot to do with passing too I think.
without a doubt that is true. If you are confident in your identity, it tends to shine outwards. To get the confidence, you have to get out into the real world and show the world who you are, no ->-bleeped-<-ing around.
I guess my answer to the question, Can one live...
Yes, one can live that way. They might not be happy, they might not be accepted by others. But they are being true to themselves.
Sarah L.
Quote from: fruity on December 05, 2007, 05:02:03 PM
i've yet to see a passable transexual in real life, and yet, i seem to see several on the various internet forums i've entered. It doesnt add up to me. Something is not quite as it seems..
thats since if they pass in real life, how is one to know they are TS?
Quote from: fruity on December 05, 2007, 03:37:37 PM
i dont have any studies, i just have what my eyes see..
and when i say 90%, im actually being kind. If i was to base it purely on my expeirence, i'd say that 100% do not pass, some look androgenous.. but thats the best i've seen. Maybe they could be women from a distance, but close up? no chance.
however, im willing to accept that some do, but im yet to meet one.
i've probably met about 30 or 40 now.
theres always something blantantly wrong, if its not the face, its the shoulders, voice or whatever.
i just call spades spades. The sooner transexuals face reality the better.
most have a strange image of themselves in their head, that is not represented to the outside world. They feel like a woman, and everyone else sees a man.
Thats where the problem is.
QuoteI've never personally met another trans person or at least one who didn't pass (thus I didn't know) so is there some specific area(s) "impassables" tend to congregate where I can go and possibly enlighten myself?
perhaps we are confusing what we define as 'passing' kiera?
when i say passing, i dont mean walking down the street, or sitting in a bar or on a bus.
i mean, interacting with and living with people 24/7 who are convinced you are female, no doubts. Anything else is not what i would call passing, its just that people are not observing you properly.
maybe for some people that is enough, but its not for me.
its just my experience that i am commenting on, nothing more.
40 transexuals isnt even close to a registerable percentage...
your quite bias... and saying 100% dont pass to you is quite blaze and really quite nieve... youve probably met transpeople, and youve not noticed, (thats called passing btw)
Personally, my face is female, my body is female, im only 5'9, im well within female hight, my voice is beyond passable, infact if anything, it dispells any doubt to my gender. would you read me? maybe, but i know everyone else in my life takes me as female....
i recently got a job in a pub, and my name was down as androgynous, male or female, i was at the interview wearing a pair of baggy jeans and a university hoodie... they took me as female then, they havent changed thier view, many of the other female staff have raised sensative topics around, or with me, id think they dont suspect... including suggesting once when i had stomach pain, that it was totm cramps... they wouldnt suggest that to a transperson would they now?
oh, some people on the net pass, yet no transpeopel youve met irl do... OBVOUSLY were all liars and fakes pretending and really im a 40yo man with a beard and beer belly, sorry to fool you all! [/sarcasm]youve not met enough to make that suggestion by your own admission.
i do agree though, passing is interaction. and a lot of TS fail there, but not all do, infact a LOT also suceed. if it acts like a woman, smells like one, looks like one, talks like one, how do you know shes trans at the end of the day? do you have chromosome vision?
R :police:
Quote from: fruity on December 05, 2007, 05:02:03 PM
you know, self-esteem, comes from within, not from a camera lens or a webcamera, but from experiences in life, at least for me.
This I agree with. But I also think many people find the courage to get out there and DO that by getting validation and encouragement via posting pictures.
Plus it's always nice to be told you're pretty ;)
QuoteTelling each other how wonderful we all look, posting pictures of ourselves trying so hard to hide the real truth is something very destructive and is not going ultimately going to help anyone ever build any kind of self-esteem
Chasing the ghost of 100% passability is even more destructive, and ALSO used as a crutch to avoid developing self-esteem.
IMHO, the idea is to realize you are who you, whether you pass or not. Obviously, it's great to pass... but if you don't START from within, and everything depends upon never being read, well... that's a very fragile sense of being.
~Kate~
as easily as some women pass as female 100% i dont think passing 100% for a trans woman is a ghost... its entirely possible imo
R :police:
Quote from: Rachael on December 05, 2007, 06:20:08 PM
as easily as some women pass as female 100% i dont think passing 100% for a trans woman is a ghost... its entirely possible imo
(drags our her chromosome scanner...)
Yes, I know, you pass really, really well. I'm just making the point that some people become obsessed with passing, having endless surgeries, endless passing tests, constantly comparing themselves to everyone else like this is all some big TS passability contest...
Instead of just accepting themselves, who they are, and getting on with their lives.
~Kate~
Okay, I'm going to be very blunt here and please remember that this is just MY opinion and not a Tink's law of any sort.
True, many people don't care and claim to be their "own woman" or "man" and that is perfectly fine as long as these same people don't complain when society doesn't accept "their version of womanhood or manhood".
Now I've met so many people during my life. Some women like Janet from work (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,20503.0.html) try extremely hard to fit the stereotypes of what being a woman is. She is currently living fulltime, wearing female attire at all times, going to therapy, taking hormones and speech lessons, etc, etc. Basically she is in her real life test living and working as a woman 24/7/365, but she doesn't pass and hence she has been encountering some problems with some people there.
Naturally, people treat her "like" a woman, call her "Janet" and use the correct pronouns when she is around; however, behind her back, these same people talk hell about her, complain about her using the ladie's room, switch back to male pronouns, etc, etc, etc. It is really sickening, if you ask me.
My point here is: my co-workers are treating her as "Janet" because there is a state law that forces them to do so but not because they actually perceive her as a woman. Personally I wouldn't like that either. I want to be treated as a female because I am female not because of any law or out of pity.
The other group of people I've met are those who claim they are "their own" woman (MTF) or man (FTM); they call themselves "transsexual" but do not want to do absolutely anything to conform with society's stereotypes (in the case of "MTF's" they literally don't give a flying fly about hair removal, improving voice, hormones, etc). However (and this is what boils my blood >:() they are the first ones to complain, cry, and moan when society doesn't see them as the women or men they claim they are.
So my point here is: one doesn't have to do anything to adhere to society's gender stereotypes, BUT if we are looking for SOCIETY'S ACCEPTANCE as men or women, then we need to conform to those stereotypes whether we like them or not.
Bottom line:
QuoteCan one live as their target gender without passing?
Yes. Many people do and have done it since only God knows how long. I think that it is possible to LIVE as men, women, or as whatever we please; however, the question remains: Are we being PERCEIVED as the gender we are living? Passing, is IMO, extremely important to be perceived and accepted as our target gender.
tink :icon_chick:
Tinks law doesnt exist? :o
R :police:
Quote from: Rachael on December 05, 2007, 06:36:26 PM
Tinks law doesnt exist? :o
R :police:
:P Where is the smite button? >:D ;D
tink :icon_chick:
Quote from: Kate on December 05, 2007, 02:46:44 PM
What can an unpassing F2M do to make it obvious he identifies as a man, and not a butch lesbian?
So far as I can tell, nothing.
It seems to me that an unpassing no-op no-ho MtF can express herself as a woman and be accepted as one relatively easily. People will comment, jerks will joke, and she will be in danger from violent transphobic bashers, but if she dresses as a woman and acts like a woman then the message of her identity will be heard. A fair portion of the population will chose simply to accept her "I am a woman," message at face value and treat her accordingly. She may find it unsatisfying, because her not-passing will leave her forever with the question, "Is this person seeing the woman I am, or seeing a man with a gender-identity problem and humouring him?"
I'd love to be humoured.
An unpassing trans-man, however, is taken to be expressing womanly strength and independance. His message, "I am a man," is not heard. There is nothing I can do to make it heard. Wearing my suit, I pass at a glance and don't pass at second-glance and what people who glance twice see is not a female-bodied person expressing his manhood, but a woman expressing her freedom to be womanly in some idiosyncratic way.
Aaron Raz Link, in his book
What Becomes You talks about this. Before transition, he's shouting at his therapist about how his manner of expressing himself has become all distorted, he tries and tries to send the message that he is not a woman and people respond by saying what a great woman he is. After transition, he's buying a feather boa and talking about how he can wear it now and just be a guy celebrating femininity and expressing femininity. Female-bodied people wearing neckties are not seen as girls celebrating masculinity and expressing their masculinity, they're seen as women expressing feminine power.
its cleverly disguised as the aplaud button... click to smite ktnx...
nah seriously, your quite close to the truth, people can 'accept' something, but dont always ACCEPT it.... people are two faced, such is life.
R :police:
Quote from: Tink on December 05, 2007, 06:33:24 PM
Naturally, people treat her "like" a woman, call her "Janet" and use the correct pronouns when she is around; however, behind her back, these same people talk hell about her, complain about her using the ladie's room, switch back to male pronouns, etc, etc, etc. It is really sickening, if you ask me.
And why some people who don't pass get ridiculed, and why some are STILL treated as their target gender... is a mystery which is driving me mad.
I know nastiness like that happens. But I also know that some TSs are treated with nothing but kindness and respect, and NOT out of pity or compliance to law, but just... because... why shouldn't they be?
~Kate~
because some folk seem to think in thier view, that were mentally ill, to be humoured...
R :police:
Tink,
I agree, without passing,
you may be target gender,
but are not living the life of someone of your
target gender.
If you don't pass most of the time, like the prototypical Janet,
then you don't get treated like a women by even the most civil
of people. People have automated responses to gender and
those won't kick in and you'll wind up being a special case and
people will act in special non automated ways.
My evaluation is that at least 3/4 of Ts
pass at least 95% of the time if they make
the effort, especially if they start in a new job
after some time on HRT and a name changed.
So, for them, they mostly live the life
of someone of their gender, especially if they live
in an area where people are civil and those
that have doubt don't act out on it.
For most TS, that very close stab at perfect integration is
enough and more than they ever hoped for initially.
Quote from: Kate on December 05, 2007, 06:52:35 PM
But I also know that some TSs are treated with nothing but kindness and respect, and NOT out of pity or compliance to law, but just... because... why shouldn't they be?
~Kate~
Oh I'm sure there are, but my experience is very limited in regards to "not-so-passable" TS's who are treated with respect and seriousness (except those who are celebrities of course). What can I say? People are just mean and terribly ignorant when it comes to gender issues. Mostly they consider us (MTF's) "super sissies" who "chose" to "become" women because we couldn't cut it as men ::). I mean, how do you fight against such blind ignorance?
tink :icon_chick:
with bigger guns?
R :police:
the recoil of a big gun hurts.
some times, fighting back reinforces the negative view the other person has.
thats why you get a nice guy to hold it for you, and stand there smiling sweetly with the binoculars calling him targets :P
sometimes, fighting back shows them we arnt some joke group they can kick around and abuse...
LGB did it...
R :police:
A person can live their life as anything they want to, the problem is that if you are not accepted what's the point, their lives will be sheer misery; not really a life at all.
Steph
Quote from: Steph on December 05, 2007, 08:46:49 PM
A person can live their life as anything they want to, the problem is that if you are not accepted what's the point, their lives will be sheer misery; not really a life at all.
Must someone pass to be accepted? Can someone pass for a woman (or man), while not passing for a genetic female (or male)?
~Kate~
Many, many people can pass as their target gender, but even so, they still may not be accepted. For example I came out at work before I started RLT, my co-workers knew all about Steph. When "Steph" started work about 4 weeks after coming out, even though I passed pretty good at the time, not everyone accepted me as a woman, it took time and effort and perseverance.
I prevailed.
Steph
When I attended the Southern Comfort Conference in September I saw every combination possible. I saw MTF's that were living as females and did not pass while other MTF's made me jealous.
Most of the MTF's made a great effort to look like and act like a female and I thought they were very passable.
If a person wants to live as a female and is happy in spite of not passing then more power to that person.
Personally females are beautiful and I think it is worth making an effort to at least try to be beautiful.
..............................
My wife turned out to be the 1 in 20 that accepts her husband. It has taken her a couple of months to get used to my body but she has become a very close friend again. It also took a second conversation for my wife to understand what I told her the first time (6 months earlier). Our arrangement is I can express myself in our bedroom but she discourages me from telling the children so that she remains the only person that knows. She is shocked at my gestures, emotions, and massive reduction in muscle mass. She has even given me an occasional compliment related to my female side. However she knows it would be very difficult for me to pass even with help.
I only dress as a male when I leave the house. Yesterday 12/4/07 I was chatting with a good neighbor friend whose son also plays on the same varsity baseball team as my son. I got the same comment I have received from many people, "You look very good! What have you been doing?"
Do you think I should tell my neighbors the secret to regrow some of your hair? ;)
I am quite paranoid and do not relish the idea of people making fun of me behind my back.
My wife is quite funny and she told me that she has prayed to the Lord for the past few years for me to return to her. She did not realize that her prayers would be answered in an unusual way. I told her yes you won the "boobie" prize!
I am happy my wife stayed with me. Nero I can not answer your question at this time. If my wife left me I would feel less pressure to worry about passing. Now I am worried about my wife losing all her friends because she chose to stay with me. I think circumstances can influence the decision.
Quote from: Tink on December 05, 2007, 06:33:24 PM
Now I've met so many people during my life. Some women like Janet from work (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,20503.0.html) try extremely hard to fit the stereotypes of what being a woman is. She is currently living fulltime, wearing female attire at all times, going to therapy, taking hormones and speech lessons, etc, etc. Basically she is in her real life test living and working as a woman 24/7/365, but she doesn't pass and hence she has been encountering some problems with some people there.
See, this is what I'm trying to figure out: what is it about her that gets her picked on? Is it really as simple as her not passing? Or does she look "incongruent," meaning showing up with a beard shadow, body hair... and skirt and heels? What is her "presentation" (I hate that word, but you know what I mean) like? Does it SEEM like an artificial "presentation?"
I get that we need to play within the rules and expectations of society, and can't simply demand acceptance while not making any effort to fit in. I GET that.
But I'm not entirely sure that not-passing by itself is what gets people picked on. I realize the
"100% passing or it's not worth it!" people disagree, but I swear it has something to do with being TOO incongruent, too much contrast, too much stereotyped behaviour/appearance overlaying too many masculine traits.
And if it's truly possible to not pass yet STILL find acceptance to some degree, then one can still live as their target gender without passing.
~Kate~
Quote from: Kate on December 06, 2007, 10:40:38 AM
Quote from: Tink on December 05, 2007, 06:33:24 PM
Now I've met so many people during my life. Some women like Janet from work (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,20503.0.html) try extremely hard to fit the stereotypes of what being a woman is. She is currently living fulltime, wearing female attire at all times, going to therapy, taking hormones and speech lessons, etc, etc. Basically she is in her real life test living and working as a woman 24/7/365, but she doesn't pass and hence she has been encountering some problems with some people there.
See, this is what I'm trying to figure out: what is it about her that gets her picked on? Is it really as simple as her not passing? Or does she look "incongruent," meaning showing up with a beard shadow, body hair... and skirt and heels? What is her "presentation" (I hate that word, but you know what I mean) like? Does it SEEM like an artificial "presentation?"
I get that we need to play within the rules and expectations of society, and can't simply demand acceptance while not making any effort to fit in. I GET that.
But I'm not entirely sure that not-passing by itself is what gets people picked on. I realize the "100% passing or it's not worth it!" people disagree, but I swear it has something to do with being TOO incongruent, too much contrast, too much stereotyped behaviour/appearance overlaying too many masculine traits.
And if it's truly possible to not pass yet STILL find acceptance to some degree, then one can still live as their target gender without passing.
~Kate~
Hmm There may be a difference between 'not-passing-birth-sex-is-apparent' style, and 'not-passing-linebacker' style. Meaning- an overly 'manly' appearing non-passable woman may be less likely to be accepted than a woman whose male birth sex is apparent, but not overly incongruent. Just a theory.
For many TS, not passing is not just about their face looking male, its about having a manered extreme presentation (dress, manerism, etc) and simply not looking at ease it their own body. This happens often in the first year or two.
With time, many correct this and they end up fine, but some always seem to be caricatures!!
Dissonance is what sticks out in people's mind. Someone who doesn't create too much difference between expected presentation of a women and actual presentation (or even falls within average variations) will be cut much more slack even if someone does find out because of their facial features or body type that they were originally male.
Quote from: Keira on December 06, 2007, 12:31:31 PM
For many TS, not passing is not just about their face looking male, its about having a manered extreme presentation (dress, manerism, etc) and simply not looking at ease it their own body. This happens often in the first year or two.
With time, many correct this and they end up fine, but some always seem to be caricatures!!
Dissonance is what sticks out in people's mind. Someone who doesn't create too much difference between expected presentation of a women and actual presentation (or even falls within average variations) will be cut much more slack even if someone does find out because of their facial features or body type that they were originally male.
That makes sense. There are transwomen with 'male voice range' who even on the phone are nothing but female, because they are so female, the voice doesn't matter.
Quote from: Kate on December 06, 2007, 10:40:38 AM
And if it's truly possible to not pass yet STILL find acceptance to some degree, then one can still live as their target gender without passing.
~Kate~
One should be able to live as whatever gender they choose, and be a valued person, regardless of whether or not they pass. I also think that a we shouldn't feel pressured to pass because of societal expectations. Do it because that's how you want to look. I quickly realized I wasn't a makeup and heels type person. Jeans and flannel shirts are what I'm comfy in.
y2g
Passing has nothing to do with heels or whatever,
I go out in T's and shorts or jeans and sandals during
the summer, not trying to impress people with femininity,
although C cup breasts are certainly making a point ;-).
Its not about meeting society's expectations.
Women have thousands of different presentation,
you can be any one of them and still be a women.
But, if your seen as male (which is more probable in gender
neutral clothes), don't expect to be treated as a women.
If your all right with that, more power to you. That may
simply mean that for you, social dysphoria is not as profound
as somatic dysphoria (body). For some people, simply having a female
body is enough, they don't change anything else and
if people are civil they may live happy lives (though not the
life of a woman).
choose? hmm
Nero: i know several natal females with voices in male range, but nobody notices...
kiera: totally, if someones normal enough, nobody CARES if thier trans. they forget....
R :police:
Quote from: Keira on December 06, 2007, 01:57:03 PM
Its not about meeting society's expectations.
Women have thousands of different presentation,
you can be any one of them and still be a women.
But, if your seen as male (which is more probable in gender
neutral clothes), don't expect to be treated as a women.
If your all right with that, more power to you. That may
simply mean that for you, social dysphoria is not as profound
as somatic dysphoria (body).
Actually, in my case, the social dysphora is much more profound than the somatic. I can live with my body (at least I think I can, it's also possible I'm in denial), however I don't like being seen/treated as male. Where it gets tricky is that I don't expect to pass as a woman w/out HRS, so I'm seen as ambiguous. I'm not necessarily all right with that all the time. :-\
zythyra
Quote from: Rachael on December 06, 2007, 02:36:16 PM
choose? hmm
Nero: i know several natal females with voices in male range, but nobody notices...
True. There's really no feature unique to transwomen. Any 'masculine' feature possible from voice to brow ridge to adam's apple - there are natal females who share it. It really just depends on one's overall look, presentation, behaviour, and 'aura' if you will.
One 'so called male feature' won't make or break you.
Quote from: Rachael on December 06, 2007, 02:36:16 PM
kiera: totally, if someones normal enough, nobody CARES if thier trans. they forget....
Exactly. I think people tend to laugh when someone seems fake or artificial to them. But I don't think simply being read makes someone seem fake or silly. People will laugh at an obvious male in a miniskirt for the same reasons they'd laugh at a 90-year-old GG in a miniskirt. It's not a TS intolerance thing so much, as a
"who do you think you're kidding?" kinda thing. As long as someone seems real, even if that's as a real TS in the middle of transitioning, trying to honestly find her way... I don't think people will laugh. But if someone comes across as arrogantly forcing things, either in appearance or in demanding acceptance while making no effort themselves, there's going to be laughter and resentment, IMHO.
~Kate~
Well, personally, I don't pass worth a damn and I live as my target sex. Yes, I bind, wear a short hair cut and men's clothing and have generally masculine mannerisms but without HRT I will never actually pass.
However, I just act with confidence when I walk into the men's restroom and everyone just assumes that I'm supposed to be there. My personality comes off as male, as far as I know, and so people don't really question it. I tell people that I have a birth defect and am a late bloomer. Most people accept that.
So, for me, it's possible. It's a reality.
Quote from: Nero on December 06, 2007, 03:09:24 PM
True. There's really no feature unique to transwomen. Any 'masculine' feature possible from voice to brow ridge to adam's apple - there are natal females who share it. It really just depends on one's overall look, presentation, behaviour, and 'aura' if you will.
One 'so called male feature' won't make or break you.
I'm currently reading Julia Serano's book Whipping Girl, the section I'm reading now details the range of diversity within the binary genders. Some males have "female" physical characteristics and vice versa.
y2g
it took this long for you to work that out? and a BOOK too?
:-\
R :police:
Quote from: Rachael on December 06, 2007, 03:39:08 PM
it took this long for you to work that out? and a BOOK too?
:-\
R :police:
Not to worry, I figured this out a long time ago. I'm waiting for the rest of the planet to catch up and accept the diversity as natural ::) ;)
y2g
they do accept that diversity... just LOTS of male features, or male features and male behaviour and female dress isnt the sort of diversity they can handle.
R :police:
I'd say there are lots of people who aren't even transgender that don't pass as their target gender very well, but they live their lives anyways.
There are also a lot of people who are "passing" but not living as their target gender.
Passing and living as your target gender don't actually have much to do with one another.
Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on December 06, 2007, 04:53:24 PM
I'd say there are lots of people who aren't even transgender that don't pass as their target gender very well, but they live their lives anyways.
There are also a lot of people who are "passing" but not living as their target gender.
Passing and living as your target gender don't actually have much to do with one another.
Interesting. Could you elaborate on that?
society is very fond of this saying: "If a bird looks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it's probably a duck."
mentioned that before.... look like your target gender, talk like it, act like it, and you ARE it.... thus living the life of your target gender...
if you fail anywhere along that road, imo, your living a life _close_ to your target genders, sometimes as it, sometimes not, fail at 2 or all 3? well you cant really ever live as your target life, just like it.
R :police:
Quote from: Kate on December 06, 2007, 10:40:38 AM
Quote from: Tink on December 05, 2007, 06:33:24 PM
Now I've met so many people during my life. Some women like Janet from work (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,20503.0.html) try extremely hard to fit the stereotypes of what being a woman is. She is currently living fulltime, wearing female attire at all times, going to therapy, taking hormones and speech lessons, etc, etc. Basically she is in her real life test living and working as a woman 24/7/365, but she doesn't pass and hence she has been encountering some problems with some people there.
See, this is what I'm trying to figure out: what is it about her that gets her picked on? Is it really as simple as her not passing? Or does she look "incongruent," meaning showing up with a beard shadow, body hair... and skirt and heels? What is her "presentation" (I hate that word, but you know what I mean) like? Does it SEEM like an artificial "presentation?"
I get that we need to play within the rules and expectations of society, and can't simply demand acceptance while not making any effort to fit in. I GET that.
But I'm not entirely sure that not-passing by itself is what gets people picked on. I realize the "100% passing or it's not worth it!" people disagree, but I swear it has something to do with being TOO incongruent, too much contrast, too much stereotyped behaviour/appearance overlaying too many masculine traits.
And if it's truly possible to not pass yet STILL find acceptance to some degree, then one can still live as their target gender without passing.
~Kate~
Hmmm...I am not sure whether I should go into details about why she is not perceived as a woman. But let me say something: when you see a tomboyish woman, why do you think people clock her as female? IMO, it is her features (facial, body shape, voice, mannerisms, etc) that give her away, wouldn't you think? I think the same mechanism is used by people when some of us are read. Perceiving biological sex in a person is an automatic response. People only go by what they see on the outside and the cues they get when they meet us are sufficient for that perception.
tink :icon_chick:
I agree on that. Its automatic, and that's what frustrates so many TS here and elsewhere, the seeming "unfairness" of this assessment. We've had some heated discussion on the subject in this group.
Its a combination of many thing, not one, although one highly incongrous detail can rock the assessment one way or the other.
People will assess you as male presenting as female, not
as a women. This will change behavior in the interaction
since it will go outside learned automatism and learned
behavior and go into fully conscious actions.
Its like driving a car the first time VS after 10 years.
Someone who's use to meeting TS, may have an
automated learned behavior and may treat them
like they would a women.
My own interaction with GG's who are used to be
around TS. One was friend of someone who's mother
was a TS and she has had many contacts with them,
including with me :-). I believe that she treats me
as she would another women. She's
my best friend BTW, god she's great!
I know some will disagree, but I think that anyone can pass who wants to. OK I'll duck now so start throwing things. Certainly, it's harder for some than others. Some need surgery, etc. and some need time to learn. But everyone can look her/his best, despite very trying circumstances. There are people who can and will help. Like many on here, I've gone out and found those people. It takes money and it takes dedication. translation: WORK But when I see someone who doesn't even come close to passing, I only have one thought: Lazy! Of course if they don't care about passing that's their own deal. But if they are living as their target and don't take the time to learn to pass well, they should not complain or be surprised at the needling that is bound to happen. I know it takes time to learn, but if I am to live in my real gender I know I must work very hard to make my dreams come true. We are social creatures. Without that crucial two-way interaction with society as our target gender we are certainly not living as our target gender. In our culture, it will never happen without passing.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Quote from: Kristi on December 06, 2007, 10:14:29 PM
I know some will disagree, but I think that anyone can pass who wants to. OK I'll duck now so start throwing things. Certainly, it's harder for some than others. Some need surgery, etc. and some need time to learn. But everyone can look her/his best, despite very trying circumstances. There are people who can and will help. Like many on here, I've gone out and found those people. It takes money and it takes dedication. translation: WORK But when I see someone who doesn't even come close to passing, I only have one thought: Lazy! Of course if they don't care about passing that's their own deal. But if they are living as their target and don't take the time to learn to pass well, they should not complain or be surprised at the needling that is bound to happen. I know it takes time to learn, but if I am to live in my real gender I know I must work very hard to make my dreams come true. We are social creatures. Without that crucial two-way interaction with society as our target gender we are certainly not living as our target gender. In our culture, it will never happen without passing.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Are you saying it's not physical? Because I think most of it is. One can do everything in their power and still not pass - especially if unable to have HRt.
IMO, those who pass without HRT have good genes. And honestly - most transmen who 'claim' to pass without hrt are passing as 12 year olds.
I don't know about transwomen, but any transman who truly passes as a MAN and not a little kid without HRT must be IS of some sort.
I think to answer this question, one has to first separate sex and gender, and to decide what you define as passing. If by passing, you mean being "read" as having a certain genital configuration, then I think that it is possible. I think most of what determines "passing" has little to do with genitals and everything to do with how you "accessorize" your body. For example, though we all assume that Julia Child had "female" genitals, for some reason she always struck me as having a male gender. For all that we know, she may have had a penis, but that didn't prevent her from living as a woman and being treated as such. It's kind of hard to think of examples (though I'll try), since most people's gender (we assume) matches their genitals.
Edit:
Oh, I thought of another: does anyone remember the AVON Lady from "Transamerica" that Bree said would never pass, but was actually a "GG" (movie quote, not my designation)? For lots of people who aren't "trans-aware," clothes are what determines a person's sex. For example, if person A is wearing a dress, then logically, person A is Mrs. A.
Ok, I'm going to stop using quotation marks now. :)
I would hate like hell to try to pass without HRT. I will give up my estrogen when they pry it from my cold, dead fingers.
As I see it, there are more elements to passing than we have identified so far. It's in the eye of the beholder, the beholder who is looking in the mirror and the beholder who is looking at the person who was looking in the mirror.
I believe that comportment has much to do with passing. Behave and carry yourself as a man and you just might be found to be a man by the person whose mind makes that judgment call within milliseconds of your image hitting their retina.
The same holds for a woman.
IMHO, there is information that has been stored in the physical brain for use by the mind in daily living, like what is light or dark, what does one's own face look like, what a boy, girl, car, cell phone, whatever, looks like. In milliseconds a perception starts.
The perception is then refined by context. It's possible to see George W. Bush in drag but it's not likely, no more than a person with a long beard and a cocktail dress is, at second blush, assigned the mental value of "woman."
Whoever sent the quarter, you can keep it. It's not much, and it's not much of a belief.
Wing Walker
Having Her Perceptions Recalibrated
"Passing" isn't enough for me. I need to be stunning. :)
Quote from: melissa90299 on December 07, 2007, 01:23:12 AM
"Passing" isn't enough for me. I need to be stunning. :)
but what if you are unable to achieve that?
Quote from: Nero on December 06, 2007, 03:09:24 PM
Quote from: Rachael on December 06, 2007, 02:36:16 PM
choose? hmm
Nero: i know several natal females with voices in male range, but nobody notices...
True. There's really no feature unique to transwomen. Any 'masculine' feature possible from voice to brow ridge to adam's apple - there are natal females who share it. It really just depends on one's overall look, presentation, behaviour, and 'aura' if you will.
One 'so called male feature' won't make or break you.
Yeah, it is really the vibe that is most important. I see people here who look female facially but (to me) they vibe male by the way they communicate. Of course, maybe they only vibe that way in text though I doubt it.
Posted on: December 07, 2007, 01:32:44 AM
Quote from: Berliegh on December 07, 2007, 01:30:58 AM
Quote from: melissa90299 on December 07, 2007, 01:23:12 AM
"Passing" isn't enough for me. I need to be stunning. :)
but what if you are unable to achieve that?
I was just kidding. I never even thought I would pass much less be a woman who is constantly objectified. Of all the things I did, the DDs say it more than anything.
Really, I have to pinch myself, all I ever dreamed of was being a chanteuse. I now am performing in clubs, two or three times a week to rave reviews. I am starting to develop a reputation and performing with people who do freaking BROADWAY!
I REALLY need to get serious though and out together my own trio to back me up, I also discovered I can play jazz guitar pretty well now. (I was playing blues and rock.) So this passing stuff is old hat.
I don't think you write like a bloke at all, Berleigh. I love that word Bloke.
Firstly I object to the word 'transwoman'...as I'm I'm not a friggin alien!
and yes I saw a tallish women with a real manly deep voice a few says ago and I was convinced she must be a T.....but I was wrong...
and lastly, Melissa is right....I think I sometimes write with the in your face upfront attitude of a bloke!
why must we gender writing style? women can write how they like... thats the thing about the feminist social revolution. women are empowered to be mean and mild, OR to be as agressive and proactive as males. Its not how you write, its whats IN the writing... the trans community LOVE gendering bloody anything.... you should all move to a country were all objects are gendered in language and you can debate the sex of tables...
I think Kiera has a good point, there is a fear of breaking a few eggs here with regards to the passing issue. We do try to be really nice and inclusive, and unoffending, but some subjects need bluntness. This being one where we could do with cutting the bulls***...
As cute as the Melissa and Berleigh show is, i dont think you two tag teaming along merily
Krisiti: Nice sentiment love, but Passing isnt something you can wish really hard and get... this isnt trans fiction, there arnt magic spells or mad scientists... some people JUST DONT PASS.... or WONT ever... there are a lot that dont try, 'why should i conform to the world when they wont pander to me?' crowd, who dont try to pass as being accepted as female or male is apparently owed to them.
with some people, they physically cant. be it one or more features just SO one sex, it cant pass for the other, and some things bring the rest into question, a transwoman might pass if she were 5'7, but shes got the same features, and 7ft tall... big 'ooh look at that' draws attention, so maybe she doesnt now... most likely not. There are some who can with surgery, some who can without, but its more than just looks, dont get me wrong, looks are a good 60% of passing imo. Walking down the road, on the buss, a character, just another person. but in personal interaction, the last 40% comes in, half voice, half behaviour... ive met a few transwomen, one girl, passes gorgeously visually, vocally quite nicely with a hint of 'hmm wazzat' if your clued in. otherwise totally not. but her behaviour lets her down. the way she sits, walks, top heavy, and lurching... it just says 'not a girl' she gives off masculine signals.... now its always said one cant pass if one looks like a 400lb trucker, with a full beard and bald patch, but even if you look like a freakin model, if you dont sound and behave like one, then to the point of this topic, you cant PHYSICALLY live the life of your 'target' sex.... (i hate that phrase? makes us sound like business people aiming for production targets ><) Passing is like one of those video game quests... you have to have all 3 gemstones, inserted into the magic gemstone holder of doom in the right order, or the fairy godmother gives you a spanking... youve got to have that female vibe that comes from looking female, acting female, and sounding female, its entirely possible, as many transwomen do it heck, vice versa with trans men, its entirely possible, just not for everyone, now the original question was can you live the live of your target sex without the 3 magic gemstones, and the fairy godmother hot on your heals? dont know, ive not tried. but id wager a good guess at no, like the posters above, people treat you LIKE a woman, or AS a woman, but in thier eyes, you ARNT one.... same with transmen, they see you as a sissy guy, or butch woman, in most cases. now this isnt just knowing, you can pass entirely well, and people can know, and your still a woman ,but its after the initial impression that makes the cookies here... my best friend knows, and she keeps forgetting im trans, im just her best girlfriend.... coworkers used to forget. if your normal enough, dont ruffle any cages, and have that vibe, you fool thier senses into seeing just a girl...would i have transitioned if i couldnt pass, and therefore couldnt be ME? dunno, id have probably had a good long chat with a pair of razorblades first...
R :police:
I'm not 'tag teaming' with anyone but on occasions I have agreed with Melissa's posts as they are usually the voice of experience and reason..
I take on board what you have to say and agree with you, but it's just points that everyone already knows...
QuoteI'm not 'tag teaming' with anyone but on occasions I have agreed with Melissa's posts as they are usually the voice of experience and reason..
i agree, i think melissa is normally quite to the point, positive and honest, and clearly has experience. Well done melissa, and thankyou. Its not easy to come to terms with who you are, and i get the impression that melissa is as close to it as anyone in here.
of course i could be wrong, which often happens to me.
im quite a vulnerable person really and so i tend to like reading posts from experienced people like melissa and also berleigh and several others, appear to be. They give me a sense of hope.
Conversly, people clearly with little real experience who come in bragging about how female they look when they don't really, make me think that life is total disaster with no hope other than being surrounded by no hopers with nothing but pipe dreams.
maybe there are two types of ts, those in denial about their inherent masculine body, and those that are aware of their situation and i think perhaps a goal is to try and become aware of our flaws, and help each other in correcting them, instead of promoting our subjective unrealistic dreams.
what about the type that dont have masculine body language?
so all ts have masculine bodies? im sorry, thats incorect... there are MANY ts girls and women who have entirely female bodies...
i actually wish i didnt have such a female body at times :P ive recently had to get new bdu pants because my hips made them too tight! so PLEASE tell me thats denial :P
R :police:
Quote from: Rachael on December 07, 2007, 06:38:04 AM
what about the type that dont have masculine body language?
so all ts have masculine bodies? im sorry, thats incorect... there are MANY ts girls and women who have entirely female bodies...
i actually wish i didnt have such a female body at times :P ive recently had to get new bdu pants because my hips made them too tight! so PLEASE tell me thats denial :P
R :police:
yep. being a ts woman doesn't automatically equal a masculine body and body language. and a LOT (probably 80%) of body language depends on the way the body's set up. that's the main difference between the way men and women move. a woman built like a man (gg or not) will move, walk, sit, etc like a man. A man (gm or not) built like a woman (especially if he's hippy) will have to work to not move, walk, sit, like a woman.
I know there's so many guides out for ts women to learn to move like women and ts men to learn to move like men, but there's really no magic formula. there's only so much one can do. a body will move how its set up. and a lot of it depends on weight distribution. if you're hippy, your body's going to move like a woman regardless if you're a cisgender straight male.
rachel, i dont know you but you know you remind me somewhat of myself at your age. Im going to tell you the things nobody ever told me when i was your age. I wasted so much time because i had nobody to help me.
take it or leave it. In the long term i think this will help you and you might hate me for it in the short term.
Quoteare MANY ts girls and women who have entirely female bodies
there is not one single transexual woman in the world that has an entirely female body. Only genetic women, or f2m transexuals have those. Stop dreaming.
there are genetic male bodies, that are smaller and more rounded. I always thought just like you, that i had a female body. Now i realise i have a female body, compared to that of a normal male. But compared to genetic females, its pretty masculine really. I hate that, but its better to know the truth, that way you can begin to work to make it better.
you don't look like a woman. neither did i when i was your age. You look to me like an androgenous male teenager who wears make up, much like i did at your age. Maybe if i saw you in real life my opinion would change, but i doubt it. Put yourself next to a genetic woman, and really think about it. Do you REALLY look like a woman?
once you know who you are you can begin to work to make things better.
nobody ever told me this, and i wasted years in dreamland that i was somehow the 0,1% who was born lucky to look like a woman, and yet be a genetic man.
its just a dream. face reality, and that way you can start to make it better.
like i said, take it, or leave it.
Quote from: Berliegh on December 07, 2007, 03:41:09 AM
I'm not 'tag teaming' with anyone but on occasions I have agreed with Melissa's posts as they are usually the voice of experience and reason..
I don't necessarily agree with every post, however I greatly admire Melissa's willingness to always say it as she sees it, like it or not. She'll let you know if the Emperor is wearing no clothes ;D
y2g
Quote from: fruity on December 07, 2007, 07:16:29 AM
rachel, i dont know you but you know you remind me somewhat of myself at your age. Im going to tell you the things nobody ever told me when i was your age. I wasted so much time because i had nobody to help me.
take it or leave it. In the long term i think this will help you and you might hate me for it in the short term.
Quoteare MANY ts girls and women who have entirely female bodies
there is not one single transexual woman in the world that has an entirely female body. Only genetic women, or f2m transexuals have those. Stop dreaming.
there are genetic male bodies, that are smaller and more rounded. I always thought just like you, that i had a female body. Now i realise i have a female body, compared to that of a normal male. But compared to genetic females, its pretty masculine really. I hate that, but its better to know the truth, that way you can begin to work to make it better.
you don't look like a woman. neither did i when i was your age. You look to me like an androgenous male teenager who wears make up, much like i did at your age. Maybe if i saw you in real life my opinion would change, but i doubt it. Put yourself next to a genetic woman, and really think about it. Do you REALLY look like a woman?
once you know who you are you can begin to work to make things better.
nobody ever told me this, and i wasted years in dreamland that i was somehow the 0,1% who was born lucky to look like a woman, and yet be a genetic man.
its just a dream. face reality, and that way you can start to make it better.
like i said, take it, or leave it.
Obviously you haven't seen many women. There's a problem in the TS community where so many TS think that looking like a woman equals looking like a supermodel.
Tip for all who think this way - 99% of genetic women don't look like those airbrushed in your Playboys or on your tv with personal stylists, makeup artists, and clever lighting.
It's really a very male view of how women should look.
Rachael's the spitting image of a girl I used to work with. She looks very soft and feminine to me.
I think I'll try putting a picture of a natal woman up here and see how long it takes for someone to point out that she looks like an androgynous male. ::)
QuoteIt's really a very male view of how women should look.
lol, its a typical chauvenist responce to tell a transexual that they are mimicking a
man. Always watch out for the closet genetic female supremacist.. ;D
you sound like my mum. she thinks she is superior to me too because she has xx chromosones.
you can stick your xx chromosones.
you know, having lived as a man, its normally pretty easy for me to mimmick them, im a good actress.. and I like men, they tend to say nice things to me. Actually women do too, but anyway, you can't even tell the difference between a man and a woman.
and also, to you, or any other genetic woman who thinks they know more about being a woman than we do.
you dont make up the rules for how ts women live because you have xx chromosones. sorry to inform you of that.ive had enough of this.
i'll leave and let you all live in your phoney reality together. I've got better things to do with my time.
Quote from: Nero on December 06, 2007, 10:31:46 PM
Are you saying it's not physical? Because I think most of it is. One can do everything in their power and still not pass - especially if unable to have HRt.
IMO, those who pass without HRT have good genes. And honestly - most transmen who 'claim' to pass without hrt are passing as 12 year olds.
I don't know about transwomen, but any transman who truly passes as a MAN and not a little kid without HRT must be IS of some sort.
Nero, of course I am not saying that. I do know what it is to have to live without HRT. Yet, I still think that anyone who tries hard enough, given enough time and work, can pass. That does not mean being a supermodel. It just means passing. There is quite a difference. Of course some have a better head start than others. I don't think the argument of body vs. psyche is of much significance. We are whole beings and the two very much have a synergistic effect. They affect each other greatly.
Love and respect,
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Quote from: fruity on December 07, 2007, 08:11:21 AM
QuoteIt's really a very male view of how women should look.
lol, its a typical chauvenist responce to tell a transexual that they are mimicking a
man. Always watch out for the closet genetic female supremacist.. ;D
you sound like my mum. she thinks she is superior to me too because she has xx chromosones.
you can stick your xx chromosones.
you know, having lived as a man, its normally pretty easy for me to mimmick them, im a good actress.. and I like men, they tend to say nice things to me. Actually women do too, but anyway, you can't even tell the difference between a man and a woman.
and also, to you, or any other genetic woman who thinks they know more about being a woman than we do.
you dont make up the rules for how ts women live because you have xx chromosones. sorry to inform you of that.
ive had enough of this.
i'll leave and let you all live in your phoney reality together. I've got better things to do with my time.
Allllllrighty then! When have I ever implied I was superior to anyone? ???
I can't tell the difference between a man and a woman? Well, who made you the arbiter of the female visage?
I've seen a lot of pics of Rachael from every angle, and she looks female. No different from millions of women I've seen. Maybe you should actually take a look at a person before 'breaking it' to them they look like an androgynous boy.
Posted on: December 07, 2007, 10:05:47 AM
Quote from: Kristi on December 07, 2007, 08:15:49 AM
Quote from: Nero on December 06, 2007, 10:31:46 PM
Are you saying it's not physical? Because I think most of it is. One can do everything in their power and still not pass - especially if unable to have HRt.
IMO, those who pass without HRT have good genes. And honestly - most transmen who 'claim' to pass without hrt are passing as 12 year olds.
I don't know about transwomen, but any transman who truly passes as a MAN and not a little kid without HRT must be IS of some sort.
Nero, of course I am not saying that. I do know what it is to have to live without HRT. Yet, I still think that anyone who tries hard enough, given enough time and work, can pass. That does not mean being a supermodel. It just means passing. There is quite a difference. Of course some have a better head start than others. I don't think the argument of body vs. psyche is of much significance. We are whole beings and the two very much have a synergistic effect. They affect each other greatly.
Love and respect,
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Love and respect back, hon. :)
But I disagree. The whole issue of being trans in the first place is that our bodies do not match our behaviour.
QuoteI've seen a lot of pics of Rachael from every angle, and she looks female. No different from millions of women I've seen. Maybe you should actually take a look at a person before 'breaking it' to them they look like an androgynous boy.
I have said this many times before but how one genders another person is only relative to the person doing the gendering. You see xxxxxxxx as female, others will see xxxxxxxx as male or androgynous. It is what one thinks of herself that matters. It is obvious to me that many of the MtF's here who are so focused on how others gender them (also known by the totally incorrect term
passing) suffer from low self-esteem. The best way to get out of that trip is to stop worrying about self and focus on others, especially helping others.
The way to build up self-esteem is by doing esteemable acts.Focusing on oneself and attachment to being obsessed about how others judge you only leads to more suffering.
Quote from: melissa90299 on December 07, 2007, 09:20:07 AM
QuoteI've seen a lot of pics of Rachael from every angle, and she looks female. No different from millions of women I've seen. Maybe you should actually take a look at a person before 'breaking it' to them they look like an androgynous boy.
I have said this many times before but how one genders another person is only relative to the person doing the gendering. You see xxxxxxxx as female, others will see xxxxxxxx as male or androgynous. It is what one thinks of herself that matters. It is obvious to me that many of the MtF's here who are so focused on how others gender them (also known by the totally incorrect term passing) suffer from low self-esteem. The best way to get out of that trip is to stop worrying about self and focus on others, especially helping others. The way to build up self-esteem is by doing esteemable acts.
Focusing on oneself and attachment to being obsessed about how others judge you only leads to more suffering.
I agree about the self esteem issue.
There are male and female appearance norms though. There's also a big difference in how male or female one looks to a person if they know beforehand one's TS. Like I said, I bet I could put up a pic of a natal girl on here, and some would be quick to say she doesn't pass or point out masculine 'flaws' in her appearance.
Quote from: fruity on December 07, 2007, 08:11:21 AM
ive had enough of this.
i'll leave and let you all live in your phoney reality together. I've got better things to do with my time.
Good. You sound like you just want to argue anyway. As far as this debate goes, some people MAY pass all of the time, some may pass some of the time and some may not pass at all. I pass probably about 50% of the time judging by the way that people treat me and that is soley what I go on. I am not going to be delusional and think that I pass all of the time because that would be absurd and possibly very dangerous. I am not going to blab endlessly about my body, the only thing that I will say about it is that it is human. :P I do not base my life or my "passing abilty" in comparison with other MtF TS's, that would be stupid. I am me, myself, that is it. Everyone is unique no matter who they are whether they happen to be a genetic male, female, MtF, FtM, TS........whatever. I would like to know one thing, though: where do some people get this idea that they can judge someones gender identity from the way that they type on a computer?? Handwriting? Yeah, I could see that, but typing text on a screen? No way. I am not saying that as an invitation to argue by the way, so please no one see it as such. It is simply my opinion, nothing more and nothing less.
Quote from: Rachael on December 05, 2007, 11:28:52 AM
Quote from: fruity on December 05, 2007, 09:14:00 AM
seeing as 90% of trans people don't remotely pass, i'd say yes, it is possible.
does them being the majority mean they can live as thier target gender?
provide some evidence that this 90% of transpeople are living as thier target gender...
R :police:
I did it for several years.
Quote from: Tink on December 06, 2007, 07:06:03 PM
Hmmm...I am not sure whether I should go into details about why she is not perceived as a woman. But let me say something: when you see a tomboyish woman, why do you think people clock her as female? IMO, it is her features (facial, body shape, voice, mannerisms, etc) that give her away, wouldn't you think? I think the same mechanism is used by people when some of us are read. Perceiving biological sex in a person is an automatic response. People only go by what they see on the outside and the cues they get when they meet us are sufficient for that perception.
Right, but my point was that maybe passing isn't required for acceptance, for living a reasonably fulfilling life. The whole thread is getting rerailed into a passing thing again, where it seems people EQUATE the terms
passing and
acceptance and can't seem to separate the two... which is telling on it's own.
But look, all I know is that I CAN'T pass with everyone. And I've "come out" to a billion people out of necessity (when explaining why my name has changed, doctors, etc.). And no one... NO ONE.. has ever treated me with anything but respect and kindness. Do they treat me exactly as they would a GG? God if I know, but I'm not trying to mimick an IDEA anyway, I'm not trying to "become a woman" or fake being some idealistic stereotype. I'm just trying to get through my darn day, without causing too much of a fuss.
Sure, it'd be easier if I passed for a GG 100% of the time. And yes, it's a *direction* I pursue... but moreso as most women would want to be prettier, and not as some "goal" needed to achieve and maintain my so-called "womanhood" at last. Transition to me is about GETTING OVER my gender obsession, not enhancing it. Transition to me isn't about moving from one gender prison to another, it's about getting rid of this stupid obsession which has plagued me my entire life. The transitioned TS who HAS to keep passing 100% in order to be supposedly happy is no better off than than the pre-transition soul trapped as their birth sex. Both are still fragile, obsessed with TSism, and always waiting in anxiety for the proverbial shoe to drop.
Consider how many perfectly passable TSs seem miserable, despite what they say. They pass, they're seen as women, and yet it seems they don't accept themselves. They're constantly trying to become and be accepted as "real women," as an idea, and not just as a real person. For some people, I fear seeking acceptance through passing is just an attempt to avoid facing their own self-doubts by hiding behind yet another mask.
So I DO think it's possible to live as YOURSELF at least without passing. I KNOW it's possible. Maybe not for everyone, but for some at least, for those who are focused more on being real, being themselves, rather than "being a woman."
~Kate~
Quote from: Laura Elizabeth Jones on December 07, 2007, 09:39:25 AMI would like to know one thing, though: where do some people get this idea that they can judge someones gender identity from the way that they type on a computer?? Handwriting? Yeah, I could see that, but typing text on a screen? No way. I am not saying that as an invitation to argue by the way, so please no one see it as such. It is simply my opinion, nothing more and nothing less.
The same way you can by getting to know a person any other way. It's not the 'typing style' or wording or anything but the person behind the type coming through. It's certainly not foolproof, but sometimes it's clear when you're replying to a female.
Quote from: fruity on December 07, 2007, 07:16:29 AM
rachel, i dont know you but you know you remind me somewhat of myself at your age. Im going to tell you the things nobody ever told me when i was your age. I wasted so much time because i had nobody to help me.
take it or leave it. In the long term i think this will help you and you might hate me for it in the short term.
Quoteare MANY ts girls and women who have entirely female bodies
there is not one single transexual woman in the world that has an entirely female body. Only genetic women, or f2m transexuals have those. Stop dreaming.
there are genetic male bodies, that are smaller and more rounded. I always thought just like you, that i had a female body. Now i realise i have a female body, compared to that of a normal male. But compared to genetic females, its pretty masculine really. I hate that, but its better to know the truth, that way you can begin to work to make it better.
you don't look like a woman. neither did i when i was your age. You look to me like an androgenous male teenager who wears make up, much like i did at your age. Maybe if i saw you in real life my opinion would change, but i doubt it. Put yourself next to a genetic woman, and really think about it. Do you REALLY look like a woman?
once you know who you are you can begin to work to make things better.
nobody ever told me this, and i wasted years in dreamland that i was somehow the 0,1% who was born lucky to look like a woman, and yet be a genetic man.
its just a dream. face reality, and that way you can start to make it better.
like i said, take it, or leave it.
you know, im so glad you came and explained all this to me, i was running around like a headless ->-bleeped-<- thinking i was some gorgeous babe... heck, i was so delusional i seem to fool EVERYONE around me in the world...
i wont resort to personal attacks, that takes me down yo your level. youve seen one photo of me looking gothic and androgynous, so what? i look female in that, nearly anyone else will say that...
too much makeup? i only has eyeliner on :S
im full time, and im stealth on my degree course, and in my part time job... if you met me in real life, id think youd have a job 'clocking' me, as ive met trans activists whove had to ask if i was m2f or f2m AFTER having to TELL them im trans too...
whats an entirely female body? really? what is a female body? sure, no vagina, and even post op, its not real is it? but whats a female body? ive seen women with more male shape than i,
im 5'9, bit tall for a girl, but still normal, size 8 uk shoes, average for a girl my hight... i wear a size bellow the uk average for women...
so dont come in here telling me you know everything, you blatently dont, and have produced next to no evidence for your statements, and by the way, im not genetically male ;)
R :police:
Quote from: Kate on December 07, 2007, 10:13:44 AM
The whole thread is getting rerailed into a passing thing again,
Yep. Should've realized merely having the word 'passing' in a title would bring the ruder and cruder self proclaimed 'arbiters of the female form' crawling out of the woodwork.
only one thing crawling around this topic ;)
R :police:
Quote from: fruity on December 07, 2007, 08:11:21 AM
QuoteIt's really a very male view of how women should look.
lol, its a typical chauvenist responce to tell a transexual that they are mimicking a
man. Always watch out for the closet genetic female supremacist.. ;D
you sound like my mum. she thinks she is superior to me too because she has xx chromosones.
you can stick your xx chromosones.
you know, having lived as a man, its normally pretty easy for me to mimmick them, im a good actress.. and I like men, they tend to say nice things to me. Actually women do too, but anyway, you can't even tell the difference between a man and a woman.
and also, to you, or any other genetic woman who thinks they know more about being a woman than we do.
you dont make up the rules for how ts women live because you have xx chromosones. sorry to inform you of that.
ive had enough of this.
i'll leave and let you all live in your phoney reality together. I've got better things to do with my time.
still trying to make sense of this tiradeAlso, if you'd read my post without your panties in a wad over seeing the word 'male', you'd know that I was referring to the media's portrayal of women and not accusing anyone of the capital offense of acting male. And there really is a problem in the trans community of embracing some idillyc view of women.
no shizzle.... although lets be fair, the trans community isnt the best place to see normal female or male behaviour...
i think my peers mention, or think about gender, once every few months- year.... here its thrice daily.... how one SHOULD behave, how one MUST behave.... when in truth, natal females act in a veriety of ways.... masculine in some, male? in none.
R :police:
Quote from: Nero on December 07, 2007, 10:22:33 AM
Quote from: Laura Elizabeth Jones on December 07, 2007, 09:39:25 AMI would like to know one thing, though: where do some people get this idea that they can judge someones gender identity from the way that they type on a computer?? Handwriting? Yeah, I could see that, but typing text on a screen? No way. I am not saying that as an invitation to argue by the way, so please no one see it as such. It is simply my opinion, nothing more and nothing less.
The same way you can by getting to know a person any other way. It's not the 'typing style' or wording or anything but the person behind the type coming through. It's certainly not foolproof, but sometimes it's clear when you're replying to a female.
Women communicate differently than men. I can spot men trying to post as women on womyn only forums in a New York minute, a lot of it is intuition in my case. Being in woman only support groups (NOT TS groups BTW) and mixed support groups, it is striking at how different men and women communicate. Women are generally more polite and will concede other's points rather than insist on being right. all the time I know I fall into this and I consider it a male trait that I haven't fully shed.
Quote from: Nero on December 07, 2007, 11:52:43 AM
still trying to make sense of this tirade
Also, if you'd read my post without your panties in a wad over seeing the word 'male', you'd know that I was referring to the media's portrayal of women and not accusing anyone of the capital offense of acting male. And there really is a problem in the trans community of embracing some idillyc view of women.
Don't bother Nero.
The person didn't have the courage to debate the issue in a civilized manner and resorted to insults - not very effective as I deleted them :)
Steph
good on you steph, they were getting on my nerves....
Mel: why should you HAVE to shed a male trait? dont women ahve so called 'male' traits too?
and come on.... internet is a test of someones character? i didnt realise that internet was such serious business...
R :police:
Quote from: Nero on December 07, 2007, 09:11:30 AM
Love and respect back, hon. :)
But I disagree. The whole issue of being trans in the first place is that our bodies do not match our behavior.
Yes, Nero, that is precisely the point. Think about it: When the two are out of sync, is it only a physical thing? No. Is it only a mental thing? No, it's both. Ever hear of someone getting depressed after an operation or having a baby? Ever known someone severely depressed who began to have physical symptoms? Ever measured someone's blood pressure after hearing some shocking news? Ever seen a sight that caused an adrenaline rush in you? On quite a number of levels, mind and body must be in sync to have peace of mind and physical health. We can pretend otherwise, but the stress caused by a mismatch will eventually have manifestations, either physical, mental, or both. I think this is a part of the puzzle of why some pass more easily than others.
The human being is an amazing thing, the only member of the animal kingdom who can even fathom the conception of deception. Sometimes, we do indeed have to act contrary to our physical reality. Each of us has different levels of adaptability to the stress this causes. (I personally believe that this helps explain why some must transition full speed ahead, while others can put it off longer.) Some enjoy it immensely, some are terrified by it, and most are somewhere in between. But it is a process that affects our entire being, not just our bodies.
What does this have to do with the subject at hand? Put simply, to be a member of society of whatever gender, we must interact with others as a member of that gender. I'm not saying this is right, only that it is the reality we face. Interaction is just that: a give and take, an exchange of energy; in ways large or small it is a sharing of part of our lives, it is being in community. That is what living as our target gender is all about if we wish to be seen as one of the two binary genders. Without a wholesale change in society, one side of the exchange is missing unless the person "passes." And that includes not only physical change, but also lifestyle coaching. Yet I still believe that if someone wants to badly enough s/he can accomplish it.
So I believe that if we fail to pass we do not experience life as the other gender. And the consequences are more far-reaching than many of us realize.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Quote from: Kristi on December 07, 2007, 03:12:49 PM
Quote from: Nero on December 07, 2007, 09:11:30 AM
Love and respect back, hon. :)
But I disagree. The whole issue of being trans in the first place is that our bodies do not match our behavior.
Yes, Nero, that is precisely the point. Think about it: When the two are out of sync, is it only a physical thing? No. Is it only a mental thing? No, it's both. Ever hear of someone getting depressed after an operation or having a baby? Ever known someone severely depressed who began to have physical symptoms? Ever measured someone's blood pressure after hearing some shocking news? Ever seen a sight that caused an adrenaline rush in you? On quite a number of levels, mind and body must be in sync to have peace of mind and physical health. We can pretend otherwise, but the stress caused by a mismatch will eventually have manifestations, either physical, mental, or both. I think this is a part of the puzzle of why some pass more easily than others.
The human being is an amazing thing, the only member of the animal kingdom who can even fathom the conception of deception. Sometimes, we do indeed have to act contrary to our physical reality. Each of us has different levels of adaptability to the stress this causes. (I personally believe that this helps explain why some must transition full speed ahead, while others can put it off longer.) Some enjoy it immensely, some are terrified by it, and most are somewhere in between. But it is a process that affects our entire being, not just our bodies.
What does this have to do with the subject at hand? Put simply, to be a member of society of whatever gender, we must interact with others as a member of that gender. I'm not saying this is right, only that it is the reality we face. Interaction is just that: a give and take, an exchange of energy; in ways large or small it is a sharing of part of our lives, it is being in community. That is what living as our target gender is all about if we wish to be seen as one of the two binary genders. Without a wholesale change in society, one side of the exchange is missing unless the person "passes." And that includes not only physical change, but also lifestyle coaching. Yet I still believe that if someone wants to badly enough s/he can accomplish it.
So I believe that if we fail to pass we do not experience life as the other gender. And the consequences are more far-reaching than many of us realize.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Well, with the way you look hon, I see why you would think it's possible. :-* But presentation and attitude can really only go so far. I've been told I am a man whilst in a bathing suit with cleavage hanging out. I've been told I am more man than woman while nude. So I'm not lacking in manliness or confidence. I've done everything possible in my situation since my teens to look male. All to no avail. I simply look like a woman.
No amount of 'wanting it badly enough' is going to change that.
i think what Kristi said is quite true.... a lot here are confusing the life of a transexual woman, with living as the target sex... both are possible. Most simply dont notice the difference.
R :police:
Quote from: Nero on December 07, 2007, 03:49:09 PM
Well, with the way you look hon, I see why you would think it's possible. :-* But presentation and attitude can really only go so far. I've been told I am a man whilst in a bathing suit with cleavage hanging out. I've been told I am more man than woman while nude. So I'm not lacking in manliness or confidence. I've done everything possible in my situation since my teens to look male. All to no avail. I simply look like a woman.
No amount of 'wanting it badly enough' is going to change that.
Nero, sweetie, I'm not suggesting that it will happen just by wishing. And it is true that I don't know all of what you have tried. But I have seen your intelligence and your determination, and I admire them both. Put simply, it seems like you are looking for an excuse to give up. I'm not letting you off that easy. I believe in you. There is a way. I hope you will put your energy into finding it, not into self-destruction. Don't give up on your dreams. I care way too much about you and don't want to see that happen.
BTW, thanks so much for the compliment, but that's not really the issue. No one here has seen my male pictures from not too many years ago.
Oh, and by the way, I'd still be willing to do the body part swap whenever you are ready. ;)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Quote from: Kristi on December 07, 2007, 04:08:49 PM
Quote from: Nero on December 07, 2007, 03:49:09 PM
Well, with the way you look hon, I see why you would think it's possible. :-* But presentation and attitude can really only go so far. I've been told I am a man whilst in a bathing suit with cleavage hanging out. I've been told I am more man than woman while nude. So I'm not lacking in manliness or confidence. I've done everything possible in my situation since my teens to look male. All to no avail. I simply look like a woman.
No amount of 'wanting it badly enough' is going to change that.
Nero, sweetie, I'm not suggesting that it will happen just by wishing. And it is true that I don't know all of what you have tried. But I have seen your intelligence and your determination, and I admire them both. Put simply, it seems like you are looking for an excuse to give up. I'm not letting you off that easy. I believe in you. There is a way. I hope you will put your energy into finding it, not into self-destruction. Don't give up on your dreams. I care way too much about you and don't want to see that happen.
BTW, thanks so much for the compliment, but that's not really the issue. No one here has seen my male pictures from not too many years ago.
Oh, and by the way, I'd still be willing to do the body part swap whenever you are ready. ;)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Thanks for the compliments, hon. I really do I appreciate it. But until and IF :'(I can have HRT, passing is just a dream. I don't blame you for thinking as you do because it has clearly worked for you - I was shocked upon hearing you weren't even on HRt. I had assumed you'd had HRt +FFS. But some of us look too much like our birth sex to pass at all without the proper hormones.
Quote from: Kate on December 07, 2007, 10:13:44 AM
Sure, it'd be easier if I passed for a GG 100% of the time. And yes, it's a *direction* I pursue... but moreso as most women would want to be prettier, and not as some "goal" needed to achieve and maintain my so-called "womanhood" at last. Transition to me is about GETTING OVER my gender obsession, not enhancing it. Transition to me isn't about moving from one gender prison to another, it's about getting rid of this stupid obsession which has plagued me my entire life.
Everyone is different Kate. If this makes YOU content with yourself, then this is all it should matter. Now if I may, your situation is VERY different from mine. As far as I am concerned, you transitioned on the job. Your co-workers know your past, you are NOT stealth at work or IRL, am I correct? So IMO, it is easier for your co-workers to assimilate your transition, for you are there to educate them should there be any stupid questions (on their part). MY life is the opposite. I am stealth (perhaps, deep stealth for some people) at work and IRL with friends, acquaintances, neighbors, the grocery store down the street. the postman, the milkman, etc. I CAN'T afford being "discovered". I am sorry for not going into details but trust me, I can't. If for some of you, that means that I am "obsessed", well so be it, I am not going to argue with any of you. It's Friday, it's been a long week, and I am tired!
All I am going to say is that each one of us lives life the best we can, we have priorities, careers, a reputation to guard. If for some of you, living like YOURSELVES is all you need, wonderful! and kuddos to you, I applaud you, but please let's not suggest that everyone should think or act in the same way. As I have said here a zillion times, we just give our opinions based on our life experiences. It's obvious (to me at least) that our experiences are never going to match for a number of reasons. If they did, that would mean we are all the same and we simply aren't.
tink :icon_chick:
thing is tho tink, is it even that much effort anymore?
i had fun recently when i got a new job at uni, just part time mind, but i applyed with an androgynous name, as i was embaraced and didnt think id pass well enough and they wouldnt give the ->-bleeped-<- a job, (i was starving and NEEDED the job)
andro version of my legal name, baggy jeans and a hoodie, hired, and havent been considered anything but female since... im entirely stealth with my co workers by accident.... its a most amusing situation.... it might be slogging my butt off for hours on end, but its slogging my butt off and interacting the same as any other girl would... thats living the life of your target gender... when you yourself forget to think about things for a while...
R :police:
Incidentally nice picture Rachael!
I don't know Rachael. *I* don't want to be seen as a ->-bleeped-<-. I am pretty convinced that if people (I know) knew about me, their perception pertaining to my person would change dramatically; that's reality, we live here in the real world and people are just horrible! They pretend to be nice but behind your back, they talk hell. I see it everyday with this Janet woman. Sorry, I don't want to be another "Janet", but again that is just me and I am just weird! ::)
tink :icon_chick:
Rachael, I think its naive to think people will not change
their behavior if they knew your were TS, even if
you passed 100%. For some, the difference would
be so minor as to be trivial, but for others, they would
change their way of treating you immensily (and as
Tink say, it is the hypocrites that you have the most to
fear from). Many will seemingly not change their
behavior then bad mouth you day and night in your back
slowly making your life a living hell and making sure
you'll never be treated as female by anybody no matter
how you look.
Quote from: Tink on December 07, 2007, 04:51:47 PM
Incidentally nice picture Rachael!
I don't know Rachael. *I* don't want to be seen as a ->-bleeped-<-. I am pretty convinced that if people (I know) knew about me, their perception pertaining to my person would change dramatically; that's reality, we live here in the real world and people are just horrible! They pretend to be nice but behind your back, they talk hell. I see it everyday with this Janet woman. Sorry, I don't want to be another "Janet", but again that is just me and I am just weird! ::)
tink :icon_chick:
I have cissexual privilege whether or not people know. Why? Because people see me as a woman. People who know my past have a hard time fathoming the fact that I was ever perceived as anything other than a woman. Unfortunately, people see Janet as a man and have a hard time seeing her as a woman. It is sad but that is the lot of the TS who doesn't present well. It is not a question of "passing"or not "passing" or being stealth or being out. It is how people (generally) see you. BTW people talk behind your back about things that have nothing to do with gender. These same people are most likely talking behind your back too about one thing or the other. It is just that Janet is easier to pick on.
But Melissa, instead of Janet, it was Tink we were talking about.
She's been working stealth there for a while with no prob.
And even if people talk behind your back, its rare it doesn't
come back to you and you don't know about it.
So, if someone told others that Tink was TS with proof in hand.
Would that change their behavior regarding her, regardless of
her passing. I believe it would in many cases, but not all
cases. That's a sad fact.
Now, if something like that would happen to someone stealth,
just imagine what happens with someone not so blessed
by passability fairy.
I know EXACTLY what you mean tink.... i HATE the label transexual, it just has so much baggage. i dont want to be seen as some pitty case, or weirdo. lets be honest, in the real world, that name carrys those labels.... Im entirely happy to ignore that past, and move on as much as i can while pre op (my hangup currently) Im a girl, i dont WANT others to see me as anything but....]
(and thanks, just be being a gothic tomboy for lulz)
Kiera: im not sure i understand you, i didnt suggest they would think the same of you even knowing did i? i know they would change thier behaviour, its why i do my damnedest not to let them change thier mind! :)
R :police:
Quote from: Keira on December 07, 2007, 05:53:52 PM
But Melissa, instead of Janet, it was Tink we were talking about.
Excuse me, Tink was talking about Janet fearing that she would become another "Janet" if someone outed her. That would never happen IMO i.e. people treating Tink like Janet.
BTW if all you guys are going to continue to talk about "passing" so much, I wish you would put in quotation marks. The term "passing" implies deception and that is just wrong.
Anyone who would treat me differently if they knew would not be someone I would want to associate with anyway so I certainly would not allow them to rent space in my head. What someone else thinks of me is none of my business. Going through life putting such a high priority on what others think of you only leads to misery.
Quote from: Rachael on December 07, 2007, 06:06:00 PM
I know EXACTLY what you mean tink.... i HATE the label transexual, it just has so much baggage. i dont want to be seen as some pitty case, or weirdo. lets be honest, in the real world, that name carrys those labels.... Im entirely happy to ignore that past, and move on as much as i can while pre op (my hangup currently) Im a girl, i dont WANT others to see me as anything but....]
(and thanks, just be being a gothic tomboy for lulz)
Kiera: im not sure i understand you, i didnt suggest they would think the same of you even knowing did i? i know they would change thier behaviour, its why i do my damnedest not to let them change thier mind! :)
R :police:
I think that the sooner folks see the term "transsexual" as a temporay one the better off we will all be. I've always felt, and believed with all my heart that that part of me which people refer to as being transsexual is but an expression of where I was. I see transsexual as simply being the journey its self, nothing more. I was, and always will be a woman but to satisfy societal requirements I needed to embark on a journey that culminated in a rebirth of sorts, a metamorphosis, similar to the butterfly which grows from a chrysalis to a splendid creature. May be that's over stating the issue but I think it's important that "TS" see it as such. We are not "TS" we are women (Men).
Steph
i grew up a girl living as a boy... now im all girl... what exactly is trans there?
R :police:
Quote from: Rachael on December 07, 2007, 06:37:13 PM
i grew up a girl living as a boy... now im all girl... what exactly is trans there?
R :police:
You TRANSitioned how you were living (Boy to girl).
Simple, really.
my point was whats trans about me now, not ever :P
R :police:
In a work setting Melissa, you might know what's going on
in a person's head (through the grapevine), but with
many people with which our association is looser,
you may never know. So, how can you cut them off
if you don't know they're humoring you. Or does it
even matter? It depends how much of an hypocrite these
people are. For some, they will treat you differently,
but the difference will be slight, but others may be
two faced! Good thing that since your stealth you
don't have to live those 2 faced creeps.
I prefer someone who hates me openly.
Quote from: Keira on December 07, 2007, 07:39:00 PM
I prefer someone who hates me openly.
Me too. There's no bigger turn on.
Quote from: Rachael on December 07, 2007, 07:12:58 PM
my point was whats trans about me now, not ever :P
R :police:
That's not what you said. :P If you're 100% female now, you're done transitioning.
Quote from: Nero on December 06, 2007, 05:01:38 PM
Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on December 06, 2007, 04:53:24 PM
I'd say there are lots of people who aren't even transgender that don't pass as their target gender very well, but they live their lives anyways.
There are also a lot of people who are "passing" but not living as their target gender.
Passing and living as your target gender don't actually have much to do with one another.
Interesting. Could you elaborate on that?
The gene pool in some parts of the United States and world doesn't run exceptionally deep, and at times will produce members of one sex or the other whose natural looks do not correspond with their genetalia. But they still go on to live their lives as their target gender, which just happens to be the one that corresponds to their genetalia. Because gender is not physical so much as mental. I've known many men who have very feminine features, voices, and sizes--but who compensate with a strong grasp of male gender identity and if you spent any time with them you'd be like "OH that's a guy, he just happens to look like a girl, poor guy."
Conversely there are people too, some in the trans community, who "pass" marvelously, and at first glance look like runway models or super hunks--but whose insides are so rotted away with self doubt about "passing" that they are not really living the life of their target gender. They are living the life of someone who doesn't want to be caught.
If you are actually worrying about stealth and passing on a day to day schedule, then you are not living as your target gender(I don't even like that word target gender). I hate to break it to you, but people who are truly living in one gender or the other, do not spend it worrying about if they are fooling people.
Which is I think where this disconnect lies. You can flat out not look like your target gender. But if you have it right in your head, and you aren't worrying about passing, and you're just living your life as one gender or another--then you are that gender.
At the end of the day all of us with dysphoria just want to look in the mirror and see the person we are staring back at us. Whether you take hormones and have surgeries to get there or not, the end place we're all looking for is the same. And nothing society does or doesn't do for you is going to finish the journey for you.
Posted on: December 08, 2007, 12:03:36 AM
Quote from: Rachael on December 07, 2007, 07:12:58 PM
my point was whats trans about me now, not ever :P
R :police:
Your past when you were presenting as a gender different from the one that you are presenting now. Pretty sure that makes you trans.
Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on December 08, 2007, 12:11:48 AM
Quote from: Rachael on December 07, 2007, 07:12:58 PM
my point was whats trans about me now, not ever :P
R :police:
Your past when you were presenting as a gender different from the one that you are presenting now. Pretty sure that makes you trans.
i will disagree on that. once you've made the mental transition (as well as the physical one) there's nothing "trans" about us. if you wanna label yourself as trans, good, be my guest, but if i were you, i wouldn't speak for everybody here ;)
Posted on: December 08, 2007, 12:15:46 AM
Quote from: Cire on December 07, 2007, 07:45:41 PM
Quote from: Rachael on December 07, 2007, 07:12:58 PM
my point was whats trans about me now, not ever :P
R :police:
That's not what you said. :P If you're 100% female now, you're done transitioning.
first off i'd like to know what you mean by "done transitioning"..
Quote from: Katia on December 08, 2007, 12:22:52 AM
Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on December 08, 2007, 12:11:48 AM
Quote from: Rachael on December 07, 2007, 07:12:58 PM
my point was whats trans about me now, not ever :P
R :police:
Your past when you were presenting as a gender different from the one that you are presenting now. Pretty sure that makes you trans.
i will disagree on that. once you've made the mental transition (as well as the physical one) there's nothing "trans" about us. if you wanna label yourself as trans, good, be my guest, but if i were you, i wouldn't speak for everybody here ;)
You mean here at Susan's Place TRANSgender Forums
If there's nothing trans about you, then why would you be posting on a transgender forum about transgender issues from a first person perspective to other transgender people?
my identity has nothing "transgender" in it. my history does. people need to make the distinction between the two. until that happens, you are just...never mind....
Quote from: Katia on December 08, 2007, 12:42:32 AM
my identity has nothing "transgender" in it. my history does. people need to make the distinction between the two. until that happens, you are just...never mind....
I think people need to understand that being transgender doesn't invalidate your identity as a man or woman or androgyne. It's like saying being homosexual invalidates your identity as a man or a woman. NO. It's just two things you are that are concurrent. But one doesn't take anything away from the other, unless you let it. You're transgender, AND you are the gender you are presenting as.
Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on December 08, 2007, 12:45:48 AM
I think people need to understand that being transgender doesn't invalidate your identity as a man or woman or androgyne. It's like saying being homosexual invalidates your identity as a man or a woman. NO. It's just two things you are that are concurrent. But one doesn't take anything away from the other, unless you let it. You're transgender, AND you are the gender you are presenting as.
you forgot to mention that this is JUST YOUR OPINION. Make sure to state that fact on every post so that ppl know what they are dealing with ;)
Sarah, define yourself as you wish.
I hate having to say TS, so hey, that's me.
Nowaday, with name change done and
things slowly shaping, I don't have to
accept or feel part of the TS tribe.
Though, that doesn't mean I'm spitting
on them or won't help them.
Quote from: Katia on December 08, 2007, 12:49:08 AM
Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on December 08, 2007, 12:45:48 AM
I think people need to understand that being transgender doesn't invalidate your identity as a man or woman or androgyne. It's like saying being homosexual invalidates your identity as a man or a woman. NO. It's just two things you are that are concurrent. But one doesn't take anything away from the other, unless you let it. You're transgender, AND you are the gender you are presenting as.
you forgot to mention that this is JUST YOUR OPINION. Make sure to state that fact on every post so that ppl know what they are dealing with ;)
What part of "I think" doesn't imply that it's my opinion?
Hi, well, me don't want to step on anyone's toes..."ouch!" That would hurt if you have corns! ;D
What I can do is tell you about my experience of transitioning and fitting in, and I mean, fitting in. Fitting in does not exactly mean you pass the test completely, here's your grade, go home and enjoy.
I was fitting in quite well with the folks in town, both male and female. After 7 years' living as Cindy and ten years working as a social worker, I had pretty well nearly forgot about my roots as a transsexual or anything else dealing with TS. TAfter the SRS the notion of transsexuality, had kind of slowly drifted away and sublimating into the cosmos.
Thinking back, it now appears that the people's acceptance of me and those I associated with and did business with every day may also have have been the result my forgetting who I was before. After a while, I certainly had no reason to want to go back or review that part of my past.
To each his/her own, but I believe that for me it depended much on attitude and personality as to how people accepted me. Let's say if I come into a certain scene being cautious loving and caring grandmother type doing her job complete with the heart smile, people will accept me well enough. At least they did with this aging lady who still has the stamina of a teenager and a sense of humor that would rival that of Lucille Ball, when I feel like it.
Now I am slowly building that type of relationship with the people of Vancouver. I always carry my little bag of humor with me.
So the answer is "NO" I am no longer transsexual, but the transitional part continues for life. How can one remember all of the female aspects of the female within? Some of us have only been in touch with female side for a very short time, as compared with the total female psyche we have only touched upon thus far. Even the researchers do not know yet the full depth and implications of the gender dysphoria enigma yet.
Life is change. When change ceases, so does life. Each of us changes with each passing day, each second. We change molecularly, cellularly, experientially, from one second to the next we are a different person, however slighty, but different. In that regard we are all transitioning.
Cindy
Oooooo fitting in is a much better word than passing, and encompasses more something akin to reality.
Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on December 08, 2007, 01:29:51 AM
[What part of "I think" doesn't imply that it's my opinion?
Oh goodness good! you save yourself a smite :)
To be honest Sarah, your saying that being trans, doesnt invalidate your being man, woman or androgyne, and comparing that with sexuality, is like saying well, bowl, plate, or cup, thier all the same right? your comparing the receptical to the content in a way... you can put a dish in each receptical, like sexuality, but your comparing that carry capacity to the whole type of receptical....
Identifying, or being told you must id as, or that you ARE, trans, DOES invalidate one as a simple man or woman (lets leave androgyne out, the stealth point is mute here...
In this world, now, being out as trans makes you 'that trans guy' or 'that transgirl' you are never normal, thus, invalidated imo. If society could accept it, it would be a different story. for now, im happy existing as a normal girl. my mind, and identity is as such:
Female
20 years old
British
Northern
Privately educated
at university
geographer
Sporty
into Rock music
Dj part time
these are things that make up me, things that without, id not be me....
trans isnt on that list. the same way that a child born with a cleft pallet doesnt drag that label around with them waving the banner and singing thier lungs out all thier life... Why be proud something painful was fixed? why should it be come part of your identity? so you lived though a bad time... do you se ex manic depressive people consantly reminding folk they once were? or adding 'depressive' to thier identity?
I transitioned, because my life was unlivable... ive not changed who i am. im the same girl born 20 years ago in that hospital. i just look right now. My personality is near identical, slight change from experience, but im the same person, i like the same things, the same people. Im just externally correct, my disability cured, my defect repaired.
my identity?
I
AM
WOMAN
R :police:
Fitting in, is a vague notion that probably
capture more of the spirit of what
transitioning well because of it is not precise.
We're whoever we want to be, and try to fit in
in the environment around us by projecting
whatever part of that internal part in
whichever way we choose.
Unlike passing, everybody, male and female,
need to fit in, its an ongoing process of
adjustment of your self to what's around it.
Sometimes, its impossible to fit in, or you
just don't want to, and you move on. Happens
to GG's and it happens to us.
So, yeah, I like fit in, better than passing, since
it better englobes the dynamic interelations of
everybody around and not just a small aspect of it (passing).
If you pass 95% and people are civil to you the rest of the time,
you do fit in and you probably live a very good life. Hourah for
the many (possibly most?) TS who do fit in in spite of not universally passing. By putting the emphasis on fitting in, it removes the negativity and uncertainty around who really passes and replaces it by something that a person can objectively assess if they are in tune with their surroundings.
Though, some are disconnected enough from their surrounding that this fitting may be built on quicksand. Hopefully "Janet" doesn't believe she's fitting in or she'll be devastated when she finds out the hypocrisy of some (and she'll eventually find out, no question, those things never stay under. They get out).
"Can one live as their target gender without passing?"
let's just cut all the bs here, no you can't!
bingo....
R :police:
Katia.
There is a need to a certain degree of passing (whatever the definition), but it certainly doesn't need to be 100%.
Should you feel failure unless reaching a mythical 100% passing.
Or you could actually be living in your target gender with less.
What if 5% of women don't "pass" as women all the time.
Isn't it ridiculous to say they're not living in their target gender!!
The whole question is a bit ridiculous because passing
is self-defined and unknowable because of lack of
information (especially from random people).
So, we have to take our best shot and then just
live our lives as best we can.
OMG now we are getting into the old saw, "I am no longer trans argument." I am not even going there, well maybe, yeah it's kinda of a paradox, although I am not in denial about my trans history, I don't really think of myself as trans anything.
When I look back at my time before I enjoyed "cissexual privilege" virtually 24/7, life wasn't perfect but it was better than living a lie and trying to pretend I was a man. The thread should be titled Can one live as their "subconscious sex" without having "cissexual privilege."
Both terms are coined by Julia Serano, if you haven't read "Whipping Girl" Get off the damn forum and run to your nearest bookstore and buy it (and read it of course)
I hate these passing threads. 1) They gives the insecure woman the opening to brag about how well they think (or wish) that they "pass" 2) They promote the acceptance of the word pass. It is a really stupid and inaccurate term. It implies that we are trying to deceive people into thinking that we are something that we are not. It is also a term that is hard to define. For some, "passing" might mean the mythical state of mind that no one can possibly detect us or it to others, it might mean simply not hearing sir anymore.
What we are really describing when we begin to "pass" very well is cissexual privilege meaning that people look at us as cissexual and we no longer carry the bagging of being thought of as trans, which to some means that we are ersatz women.
As Keira points out "passing" is self-defined where as "cissexual privilege" is much less so. You don't have to read everyone's mind who sees you to figure out whether or not you are receiving "cissexual privilge" and the term does not imply that no one can possibly detect me.
Quote from: Keira on December 08, 2007, 04:46:23 AM
Fitting in, is a vague notion that probably
capture more of the spirit of what
transitioning well because of it is not precise.
We're whoever we want to be, and try to fit in
in the environment around us by projecting
whatever part of that internal part in
whichever way we choose.
Unlike passing, everybody, male and female,
need to fit in, its an ongoing process of
adjustment of your self to what's around it.
Sometimes, its impossible to fit in, or you
just don't want to, and you move on. Happens
to GG's and it happens to us.
So, yeah, I like fit in, better than passing, since
it better englobes the dynamic interelations of
everybody around and not just a small aspect of it (passing).
If you pass 95% and people are civil to you the rest of the time,
you do fit in and you probably live a very good life. Hourah for
the many (possibly most?) TS who do fit in in spite of not universally passing. By putting the emphasis on fitting in, it removes the negativity and uncertainty around who really passes and replaces it by something that a person can objectively assess if they are in tune with their surroundings.
Though, some are disconnected enough from their surrounding that this fitting may be built on quicksand. Hopefully "Janet" doesn't believe she's fitting in or she'll be devastated when she finds out the hypocrisy of some (and she'll eventually find out, no question, those things never stay under. They get out).
Brilliant! About "Janet" who knows though? She may not be liked at work, and she may realize that. But maybe she has friends away from work that make the sacrifice at work workable.
Who knows if her problems at work are really all tied into being trans even. She may just not be easy to get along with or like, and her being trans is what people latch onto.
But yeah. Fitting in perfectly encapsulates the spirit of what I think really matters. Everyone just needs a place in this world for themselves where they can be themselves, love, and be loved. And I think that opportunity is out there for everyone regardless of how they look, trans or not. You just have to be patient and kind, and when you find that situation embrace it and appreciate it.
I'm fortunate in that all through my transition process and even now, I haven't had to deal with a lot of the scorn and bigotry that so many of us do. And now I've found myself with a good job, in a good city, surrounded by friends of all walks of life who I don't have to hide myself from. Who love me to death and treat me instinctively the way I want to be treated. I talk about my experiences as a woman who has transitioned pretty comfortably to my close friends. It doesn't affect our relationship in any way, and I really only do it when it can help to illuminate their own lives. There's a certain extent to where I've been blessed with a perspective few have, and to shut that away completely would be wrong, when there are things I can do to help with it.
It's sad to me that there seem to be so many of us who have to hide their stories just to be treated the way that they want to. Just to fit in. And I just hope that one day they are able to live freely and openly, because it would be a shame otherwise.
I think that the sooner folks see the term "transsexual" as a temporay one the better off we will all be. I've always felt, and believed with all my heart that that part of me which people refer to as being transsexual is but an expression of where I was. I see transsexual as simply being the journey its self, nothing more. I was, and always will be a woman but to satisfy societal requirements I needed to embark on a journey that culminated in a rebirth of sorts, a metamorphosis, similar to the butterfly which grows from a chrysalis to a splendid creature. May be that's over stating the issue but I think it's important that "TS" see it as such. We are not "TS" we are women (Men).
Steph
Steph,
That is how I see the whole TS thing. I was a TS for a long time and now I'm not in transition anymore. I have the wrinkles to prove that I won the war.
Sheila
QuoteIt's sad to me that there seem to be so many of us who have to hide their stories just to be treated the way that they want to. Just to fit in.
What is sad is that we live in a culture in which the thread question even needs to be asked in the first place. It is sad that physical characteristics in so many ways determine whether or not we enjoy cissexual privilege. It is sad that women have to adopt the role of so-called stealth to achieve the privilege. Why can't people just see others as human beings or better yet, just
living beings?
Quote from: Sheila on December 08, 2007, 11:54:42 AM
We are not "TS" we are women (Men).
Doesn't that imply that if you are "TS" you are not a man or a woman?
I don't really understand how one invalidates the other. Rachel tried to explaining but all I got was something about soup bowls. Isn't that just a goofy extension of the line of thinking that existed for many years about gays and lesbians? That since they were homosexual they somehow invalidated their gender, when in fact you can be a man who is gay or a woman who is lesbian. Just as you can be a man who is transgender or a woman who is trasngender. Why does the fact that you transitioned invalidate the gender you have transitioned to? That doesn't make any sense to me, and if I believed that, I don't think I would have transitioned in the first place. To my eyes, it seems really clear that transgender is just as an aspect of a greater whole. But it doesn't take anything away from you. If anything it adds to you. How many men or women can say they have dealt so intimately with issues of gender? That's not something to hide away from the public. It's not something people should be able to use to make you somehow less. If anything it's an interesting sidestory to your life.
It's a denial I just don't really understand. I understand WHY someone would make it. I just don't understand the logic of how. And I feel that the why of it may be slightly driven more by oppression than expression.
Quote from: melissa90299 on December 08, 2007, 10:54:42 AM
The thread should be titled Can one live as their "subconscious sex" without having "cissexual privilege."
Both terms are coined by Julia Serano, if you haven't read "Whipping Girl" Get off the damn forum and run to your nearest bookstore and buy it (and read it of course)
I hate to say it Melissa, but I have the feeling that the people on this forum who most need to read this book aren't likely to do so before hell freezes over.
I'd like to see a world in which I don't have to "pass" as anything other than who I am, and to be able to live openly and safely as a male bodied person who has female, or other, subconscious sex/gender identity. That is the type of acceptance I need. That is what I'd like to see for our sister "Janet" as well. My question to my trans sisters and brothers here is, how are we going to achieve this world and who among us is willing to do the necessary work?
zythyra
Quote from: melissa90299 on December 08, 2007, 12:08:25 PM
QuoteIt's sad to me that there seem to be so many of us who have to hide their stories just to be treated the way that they want to. Just to fit in.
What is sad is that we live in a culture in which the thread question even needs to be asked in the first place. It is sad that physical characteristics in so many ways determine whether or not we enjoy cissexual privilege. It is sad that women have to adopt the role of so-called stealth to achieve the privilege. Why can't people just see others as human beings or better yet, just living beings?
And never mind the pain this culture wrecks on cisexual people just in terms of gender roles. Women who have to pretend they are dumb to attract men. Or men who have to appear tough to fit in with their group. There should be more fluidity and if not that just plain understanding of the wide angle of variety out there in terms of gender expression. We're so determined to shoehorn everyone into categories, we haven't stopped to ask why we do it, and if it's helpful anymore by this stage of are development as a species. I would contend it's not. The advances in culture have progressed to such an extent that traditional gender roles can be quite antiquated and there's a silent ebbing away of them now, that i can only hope continues to progress.
I mean can you imagine if as a kid you had felt free to tell your mom that you wanted to wear the pretty dress you saw at the department store. And then if when you approached puberty you had been able to have the choice of HRT so that you could develop your body to correspond to your mind? Moreso than in any other time in human history we have the opportunity to shape and advance ourselves, and we are pretty much just passing it by because of old scores of oppression and segregation.
Quote from: melissa90299 on December 08, 2007, 12:08:25 PM
QuoteIt's sad to me that there seem to be so many of us who have to hide their stories just to be treated the way that they want to. Just to fit in.
What is sad is that we live in a culture in which the thread question even needs to be asked in the first place. It is sad that physical characteristics in so many ways determine whether or not we enjoy cissexual privilege. It is sad that women have to adopt the role of so-called stealth to achieve the privilege. Why can't people just see others as human beings or better yet, just living beings?
Absolutely!
As I posted above, I'm willing to do the work to create the kind of world that would honor and accept all of us for who we are. I'm glad to know there's a few other people here who are working towards these shared goals.
y2g
As Deepak Chopra (and the Buddha) teaches us, a belief in any of our transitional manifestations of ourselves is a delusion. We are all once were babies, we were once teenagers, we were once saddled with physical characteristics of the "wrong" gender, some now have the physical characteristics of our correct gender. None of these manifestations are really us. We are simply what we are. A unique living being.
I am listening to Chopra now on PBS and being reminded how insignificant (and potentially harmful) all this pre-occupation about how others feel about us is.
True self-actualization is only achieved when we let go of letting others define us.
When I first logged onto this thread, I assumed it was about self-actualization and not about defining ourselves based on how others see. I logged off without commenting, disappointed that this was just another thread about the harmful attachments to being defined by how well we "pass" i.e. deceive people into thinking we are something we are not. I am glad to see that the last few posts might ne leading us into a direction of understanding who we really are, devoid of this harmful attachment to letting strangers define us.
While profound, does this 'true reality and spirituality actually mean squat in the real world? which is what this topic is about? can an unpassing transwoman turn to biggots and say 'but im a beautiful being inside'...
no matter how sexy thier chi is, or how female or male or null thier aura is or thier spectoral energy... they have no connection to living an mortal life on this planet now.
Katia had it right imo... whats with the fluffing around now?
R :police:
I think you're all mostly off topic.
QuoteCan one live as their target gender without passing?
If someone were born looking EXACTLY like a squid and they were treated as a person by others and, beyond that, they were treated as their birth gender even though you couldn't figure it out by looking at them, then they would be living as their target gender.
If someone were born looking like Herman Munster and they had GID and all they did was wear lipstick and they did nothing else beyond that to appear female - it is still possible for them to live as their target gender as long as they are surrounded by caring people who understand the issue.
In the Herman Munster scenario, it is most likely that she would be treated as a male by some people in the real world, however, it is still
possible that such an individual can live as their target gender.
Therefore, the correct answer to
QuoteCan one live as their target gender without passing?
is YES. Yes they can, under the right circumstances. In a nice world other than the jerky one we happen to inhabit that is so full of judgmental people and biases. It is even possible in this world. Just because it may not be likely, it doesn't mean that it's not possible.
I am saying this with love and am not being tough or anything, so if I mistakenly come across as anything other than cool, please don't hurt me.
Rebis
QuoteCan one live as their target gender without passing?
what's the "target gender" of an androgyne? i think that for a person that identifies as "androgyne" (in between genders, null, neither, a mixture of both genders), passing as
male or
female wouldn't be an issue, yes?
LOL Rebis. It is all delusion and illusion anyway. The true nature of ourselves and the universe has nothing to do with our "current" physical manifestation.
Rebis, your Squid/person, would never get treated
exactly like another person because we do really on
visual cues in our interaction with others.
We have many shorthands in our behavior, if not
every case becomes a special case and we go
crazy. Like if the 1000th time driving a car
was just like the first one!
With time, if you know that squid/person, you may
treat them in a way that is close to the way
you would someone of its gender (whatever it is),
but will it be exactly the same. Cognitive theory
predicts it won't be. They'll get their own special version
of learned neural patterns a special addendum or variation
of the original gendered response to the environment.
Quote from: Rebis on December 08, 2007, 01:04:59 PM
I think you're all mostly off topic.
Part of the problem seems to be that we all define
"live as their target gender" differently. I think we're all more indirectly arguing over THAT then the actual topic question.
~Kate~
Quote from: Katia on December 08, 2007, 01:12:13 PM
QuoteCan one live as their target gender without passing?
what's the "target gender" of an androgyne? i think that for a person that identifies as "androgyne" (in between genders, null, neither, a mixture of both genders), passing as male or female wouldn't be an issue, yes?
I can't speak for other androgynes, but yes, it is an issue for me. Being perceived as male doesn't make me happy, my true gender, or lack of, is invisible.
zythyra
Posted on: December 08, 2007, 01:38:20 PM
Quote from: Rebis on December 08, 2007, 01:04:59 PM
I think you're all mostly off topic.
QuoteCan one live as their target gender without passing?
If someone were born looking EXACTLY like a squid and they were treated as a person by others and, beyond that, they were treated as their birth gender even though you couldn't figure it out by looking at them, then they would be living as their target gender.
Fried calamares, yummmmm!
Poor squid :(
y2g
Discussing the "meta" of the question is perfectly on topic
because its crucial to define what the question means for
us, or if there is a common ground of understanding on it,
before posting any meaningful answer.
Quote from: Rachael on December 08, 2007, 12:50:57 PM
While profound, does this 'true reality and spirituality actually mean squat in the real world? which is what this topic is about? can an unpassing transwoman turn to biggots and say 'but im a beautiful being inside'...
no matter how sexy thier chi is, or how female or male or null thier aura is or thier spectoral energy... they have no connection to living an mortal life on this planet now.
Katia had it right imo... whats with the fluffing around now?
R :police:
Someone who is complete on the inside is not going to be troubled by something so trivial as the passing comments of the ignorant. Ya know? Whereas you can look like a million dollars, but if you're not right on the inside, the merest wrong glance will shatter your entire world. To my mind, living as your target gender as the question asks, is between the ears, not between the legs.
I will never be able to pass. I can fit in very well though. But the idea of passing myself off as something that I'm not is impossible to me at least in terms of a life to live. No. I'm myself, and how could I present that as anything else and call that living?
So yeah my I think this target is less about "passing" and more about what "living as target gender" means.
For those saying that you have to "pass" to live as your "target" gender--how do you deterimine if you pass all the time? And if you pass all your life, but on your death bed someone slips and ma'ams or sirs you--does that invalidate a lifetime of living? Does that mean since you didn't pass, you didn't live as your target gender?
I think that using the standard of passing, creates an impossible situation with regrards to living your life in your "target" gender.
*as a sidenote, I don't agree with the term target gender, because it implies like passing that you are changing your internal state in some sort of dishonest way. A target is something you aim for, not something you have. Just as passing is making yourself seem to be something you're not. Neither term I believe correctly explains transgender. I think fitting in is better than passing, and "gender identity" can be substituted for target gender and expand the terms meaning and applicability. Because now you are bringing in a much wider scope of people, and I think the discussion becomes illuminated.
So if I rewrote the question it would be: Can one fit in as their gender identity regardless of how they look? Suddenly you have a very universal topic, and things get very interesting.
Posted on: December 08, 2007, 01:58:25 PM
Quote from: Keira on December 08, 2007, 01:49:38 PM
Discussing the "meta" of the question is perfectly on topic
because its crucial to define what the question means for
us, or if there is a common ground of understanding on it,
before posting any meaningful answer.
Off topic, but I was wondering why your posts are formatted like they are.
to be honest, being complete inside, has no relation to living as your target gender, and doesnt help or hinder said living... in the reverse of your analogy... if your uber complete inside, and fail @ passing on the outside, your no closer to living as your target gender :P
R :police:
Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on December 08, 2007, 01:59:52 PM
So if I rewrote the question it would be: Can one fit in as their gender identity regardless of how they look? Suddenly you have a very universal topic, and things get very interesting.
Well stated Sarah!
I believe it is becoming more possible to do this as people become more educated about transgender issues. It's not easy to live this way in our current society, especially without protections from laws such as the T-exclusive ENDA and recently jettisoned Matthew Shepard act, but it is possible.
y2g
Quote from: Rachael on December 08, 2007, 02:11:47 PM
to be honest, being complete inside, has no relation to living as your target gender, and doesnt help or hinder said living... in the reverse of your analogy... if your uber complete inside, and fail @ passing on the outside, your no closer to living as your target gender :P
R :police:
So am I deluding myself to think that I'm
"living as my target gender" at work, where nearly everyone knows I was born male?
Sure, I'm Kate, a Her, use the Women's Room, talk about things with the women that only women would discuss... so... my *experience*, no matter how fulfilling, is entirely invalidated since I can't pass with them?
How far DO we carry this anyway then? Must I move to another country and never again have any contact whatsoever with friends, family, or ANYONE who knew me as a male in order to be truly
"living as my target gender?"~Kate~
Quote from: Rachael on December 08, 2007, 02:11:47 PM
to be honest, being complete inside, has no relation to living as your target gender, and doesnt help or hinder said living... in the reverse of your analogy... if your uber complete inside, and fail @ passing on the outside, your no closer to living as your target gender :P
R :police:
Again you're using the word passing. Not everyone is trying to pass. In fact most people are not trying to pass. It's not a healthy way to live. Read Nella Larsen's book "Passing". I don't think it's possible to be complete inside if you are trying to pass, just because of what passing inherently means.
I don't think if you are passing you are living a true gender identity. Well, I guess your're living a false gender identity. But if you for example truly gender identify as a woman, you can't live in that identity if you are passing. You just can't. The whole time you are trying to fool people, which means that what you are presenting is not legitimate, which means that you are not really living life as the gender you identify as.
I think the only ones for whom passing is a useful concept is crossdressers. And even then, for many of them their identity isn't about passing.
Passing is deception. Life can't be lived as a deception. At least not fully. At least from my own experiences. That's why I had to stop trying to pass as a boy growing up, and live in the honesty of my current gender identification, which is a 25 year old female. And that journey is what also makes me trans. But the two are seperate concepts which are inherently aspects of my person.
quite right sarah, if your actively trying to pass, your not being truthful to yourself... or natural. but its a phrase we use really, if somewhat wrongly, when one 'passes for male or female' like were acting? maybe better is being accepted as your correct gender? i know i personally dont try to be female, it just IS now, and its why i 'pass' (there i go again) so well, im chilled, and normal, and give off normal signals. no fear, no nervousness etc...
Kate: no, i never said that... if you read my post, i said unpassable, i think its entirely possible to live as your true gender if you pass, but are out, yeah some might talk behind your back, but in some places, its possible to be a part of the group as your true gender, dispite people knowing... i know i manage it at university... some of my best friends know about me, and the will all change with me and other girls in the room, or raise _those_ topics... your still a female if people know, your just a female with a different history, but hey, find me two people on the planet with the same life? or the same past? it CAN be just another history... like 'oh thats mary, yeah, she used to be a blonde/athlete/guy/actress/teacher/ginger/had cancer....
Im not saying its possible everywhere, but there are places where that can happen. there are people on this planet who can accept this... dont make the world out to be entirely crappy, when there can be small rays of sunshine.
R :police:
Quote from: Rachael on December 08, 2007, 02:48:08 PM
quite right sarah, if your actively trying to pass, your not being truthful to yourself... or natural. but its a phrase we use really, if somewhat wrongly, when one 'passes for male or female' like were acting? maybe better is being accepted as your correct gender? i know i personally dont try to be female, it just IS now, and its why i 'pass' (there i go again) so well, im chilled, and normal, and give off normal signals. no fear, no nervousness etc...
Kate: no, i never said that... if you read my post, i said unpassable, i think its entirely possible to live as your true gender if you pass, but are out, yeah some might talk behind your back, but in some places, its possible to be a part of the group as your true gender, dispite people knowing... i know i manage it at university... some of my best friends know about me, and the will all change with me and other girls in the room, or raise _those_ topics... your still a female if people know, your just a female with a different history, but hey, find me two people on the planet with the same life? or the same past? it CAN be just another history... like 'oh thats mary, yeah, she used to be a blonde/athlete/guy/actress/teacher/ginger/had cancer....
Im not saying its possible everywhere, but there are places where that can happen. there are people on this planet who can accept this... dont make the world out to be entirely crappy, when there can be small rays of sunshine.
R :police:
Come with us over to "fitting in" word-land! It sounds a lot more accurate to what you're talking about.
Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on December 08, 2007, 02:30:43 PM
Passing is deception. Life can't be lived as a deception. At least not fully.
I agree.
The original usage of the term passing was by Jews passing as Gentiles or lighter skinned blacks passing as white to gain privileges in societies in which they were discriminated against.
It'd ultimately be better for transpeople to gain acceptance for the diversity of who we are rather than only for members of our community who can "pass". It's bad enough that some in the LGBT community threw us under the bus for ENDA, maybe we could do better and not leave our sisters and brothers behind.
y2g
Im all for greater acceptance, but dont ask me to out myself to help a cause...
those who know me, know what i do for my university's lgbt committee behind the scenes... greater diversity? fine, just not at the expense of my normality ta ;)
R :police:
Quote from: Katia on December 08, 2007, 01:12:13 PM
QuoteCan one live as their target gender without passing?
what's the "target gender" of an androgyne? i think that for a person that identifies as "androgyne" (in between genders, null, neither, a mixture of both genders), passing as male or female wouldn't be an issue, yes?
it's not about "passing" for most of us.
Anyway, I was speaking about a true TS. Someone who could not pass, but who was fortunate enough to socialize with people who are accepting.
Posted on: December 08, 2007, 03:48:02 PM
Quote from: melissa90299 on December 08, 2007, 01:14:29 PM
LOL Rebis. It is all delusion and illusion anyway. The true nature of ourselves and the universe has nothing to do with our "current" physical manifestation.
I like your response. :)
Posted on: December 08, 2007, 03:48:42 PM
Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on December 08, 2007, 01:59:52 PM
I will never be able to pass. I can fit in very well though. But the idea of passing myself off as something that I'm not is impossible to me at least in terms of a life to live. No. I'm myself, and how could I present that as anything else and call that living?
That's crazy! everytime I see your avatar, I wish I looked like you do. :)
Posted on: December 08, 2007, 03:53:41 PM
Quote from: y2gender on December 08, 2007, 02:21:40 PM
Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on December 08, 2007, 01:59:52 PM
So if I rewrote the question it would be: Can one fit in as their gender identity regardless of how they look? Suddenly you have a very universal topic, and things get very interesting.
Well stated Sarah!
I believe it is becoming more possible to do this as people become more educated about transgender issues. It's not easy to live this way in our current society, especially without protections from laws such as the T-exclusive ENDA and recently jettisoned Matthew Shepard act, but it is possible.
y2g
I agree with you both, except that I resent Z trying to eat my squid-child.
Living as your true gender works whether you 'pass' or not when you live in an accepting society.
I know people will tell me that we don't live in such a society, but that is because the work is currently under way to make it one. The effort has really only just begun. If you can't believe that there will be a day when people will be better, if not perfectly, accepted as their true gender without having to 'pass', then you are probably doing nothing to help make it so. I'm not talking activism. Just faith and a belief that attitudes the way they are now can be changed and people in general can grow.
Posted on: December 08, 2007, 04:03:08 PM
Quote from: Kate on December 08, 2007, 02:23:26 PM
Quote from: Rachael on December 08, 2007, 02:11:47 PM
to be honest, being complete inside, has no relation to living as your target gender, and doesnt help or hinder said living... in the reverse of your analogy... if your uber complete inside, and fail @ passing on the outside, your no closer to living as your target gender :P
R :police:
So am I deluding myself to think that I'm "living as my target gender" at work, where nearly everyone knows I was born male?
Sure, I'm Kate, a Her, use the Women's Room, talk about things with the women that only women would discuss... so... my *experience*, no matter how fulfilling, is entirely invalidated since I can't pass with them?
How far DO we carry this anyway then? Must I move to another country and never again have any contact whatsoever with friends, family, or ANYONE who knew me as a male in order to be truly "living as my target gender?"
~Kate~
I'm with Kate. In fact, I had considered her as a prime example in that her fellow employees knew her as "that man" and yet, they accept her as who she is. She is living as a female. So it is possible for others too.
Hi Rebis
Don't worry, I'll beat them over the head with my tin umbrella if they try to hurt you.
Cindy
Replace the word "passing" with the word "acceptance" and you have a better conversation.
elbow room, I mean, see you around,
Rebis
Posted on: December 08, 2007, 04:17:32 PM
Quote from: cindybc on December 08, 2007, 04:14:41 PM
Hi Rebis
Don't worry, I'll beat them over the head with my tin umbrella if they try to hurt you.
Cindy
Thank you, Cindy. Please hit them hard. :laugh:
Quote from: Rebis on December 08, 2007, 04:18:31 PM
Replace the word "passing" with the word "acceptance" and you have a better conversation.
being seen as your true gender, and being accepted as your true gender are two things....
those who are only seen as, or seen as thier true gender most of the time, are accepted defacto....
being accepted as your true gender requires openmindedness, not passing ability....
R :police:
i'm under the weather so i'll keep this short and to the point.
the term 'passing' is used for clarity in this topic, nothing else. i agree it's not accurate either.
the term 'passing' for purposes of this topic means looking enough like your true gender to not hear the wrong titles and pronouns on a regular basis. not hearing 'ma'am' and 'she' if ftm and not hearing 'sir' and 'he' if mtf when dealing with complete strangers.
that's it. no more no less.
also, i don't see this as having anything to do with self-love, self-acceptance, or self-completeness.
the mythic narcissus would not be comfortable walking through life if he was constantly mistaken for and treated as something he was not.
Hi Rebis and Kate
Before I started full time I was considering moving out of my home town to TO 2 1/2 hrs from Midland. I was going to the TS support group back then. When I told them of my plan, surprisingly they were quite against it. They told me it would be better to stay in the town I was use to, the people I was familiar with and family. Where I knew all the facilities that I may need are located.
Well I did just that and it did turn out to be the best decision I ever could have made. I didn't loos my job and I never lost a friend, well any that did drift away eventually drifted back. After a couple of years I will, I will not delusion myself here. they knew what I was but it was no longer an issue and towards the last couple of years I lived there I never heard anyone address me as sir, Mr, him, he etc.
Family? well they are the most fickle to convince about anything and they disowned me, well that's their loss. I am not going to live a lie just to please them.
So I fit in quite well with people, always have as my previous self and my new self, well new 7 years ago. It was more like becoming part of the team, with both men and women. That was the requirement of my job to start with and I did love my job.
also, for the purposes of this topic - what i really want to know - passing means not only not hearing the wrong titles and pronouns, but hear the RIGHT ones.
Passing means not being 'a whatzit' (i know that's crude, but that's what i mean)
passing means you can open your door to a plumber from a company you've never used before and be referred to as 'sir' if ftm or 'ma'am' if mtf.
that's what i mean by passing
Quote from: Nero on December 08, 2007, 04:47:54 PM
i'm under the weather so i'll keep this short and to the point.
the term 'passing' is used for clarity in this topic, nothing else. i agree it's not accurate either.
the term 'passing' for purposes of this topic means looking enough like your true gender to not hear the wrong titles and pronouns on a regular basis. not hearing 'ma'am' and 'she' if ftm and not hearing 'sir' and 'he' if mtf when dealing with complete strangers.
that's it. no more no less.
also, i don't see this as having anything to do with self-love, self-acceptance, or self-completeness.
the mythic narcissus would not be comfortable walking through life if he was constantly mistaken for and treated as something he was not.
I'm sorry. I wasn't trying to mess with your intentions. I just meant that if a 'non-passable' person were treated entirely with acceptance, they would find their life a lot easier. I understand that not 'passing' would still hurt because the person would still have a discrepancy in their self image and the reality.
Quote from: Rebis on December 08, 2007, 05:16:21 PM
Quote from: Nero on December 08, 2007, 04:47:54 PM
i'm under the weather so i'll keep this short and to the point.
the term 'passing' is used for clarity in this topic, nothing else. i agree it's not accurate either.
the term 'passing' for purposes of this topic means looking enough like your true gender to not hear the wrong titles and pronouns on a regular basis. not hearing 'ma'am' and 'she' if ftm and not hearing 'sir' and 'he' if mtf when dealing with complete strangers.
that's it. no more no less.
also, i don't see this as having anything to do with self-love, self-acceptance, or self-completeness.
the mythic narcissus would not be comfortable walking through life if he was constantly mistaken for and treated as something he was not.
I'm sorry. I wasn't trying to mess with your intentions. I just meant that if a 'non-passable' person were treated entirely with acceptance, they would find their life a lot easier. I understand that not 'passing' would still hurt because the person would still have a discrepancy in their self image and the reality.
oh my dear reebs, no apologies sweetheart. i wasn't offended in the least by anything anyone has said here.
i guess sometimes i come across as rather short, and i don't mean to.
i just mean - i do not pass. i hear 'ma'am' everywhere i go. im comfortable with my identity. i love who i am. but i am not living as a man because i do not look like one. that's it. that's all.
Quote from: Nero on December 08, 2007, 05:13:48 PM
passing means you can open your door to a plumber from a company you've never used before and be referred to as 'sir' if ftm or 'ma'am' if mtf.
Ah, well then I dunno...
If strangers were constantly "sirring" me, then my experience would conflict with who I am, so I wouldn't be "living as my target gender" according to my needs. I'd KNOW my truth, but I wouldn't be LIVING it. At least not socially.
My point was that it's possible for me to open that door, have the plumber realize I was born male, and STILL hear "miss" and be treated with respect as Kate.
~Kate~
Kate, I think its just that everybody here defines "living", "passing", "gender" and "target" differently. Kinda hard to get an agreement.
Quote from: Rebis on December 08, 2007, 04:13:53 PM
I agree with you both, except that I resent Z trying to eat my squid-child.
Living as your true gender works whether you 'pass' or not when you live in an accepting society.
I know people will tell me that we don't live in such a society, but that is because the work is currently under way to make it one. The effort has really only just begun. If you can't believe that there will be a day when people will be better, if not perfectly, accepted as their true gender without having to 'pass', then you are probably doing nothing to help make it so. I'm not talking activism. Just faith and a belief that attitudes the way they are now can be changed and people in general can grow.
Sorry about your squid-child Rebis. I only ate a few bites though, I do believe their limbs grow back, soon the squid will be good as new ;)
I believe that society is changing. I'm sometimes amazed at the inroads we've made in just the last couple of years. Someday, I hope in my lifetime, people will be able to be accepted as their true genders, whatever it may/or may not be. Whether or not it happens, I'm trying to do everything I can towards that goal, no matter how small it might seem.
y2g
Quote from: Keira on December 08, 2007, 05:35:14 PM
Kate, I think its just that everybody here defines "living", "passing", "gender" and "target" differently. Kinda hard to get an agreement.
Then I think it's time for us to draw up a definitive
disagreement. :)
Quote from: Rachael on December 08, 2007, 03:30:55 PM
Im all for greater acceptance, but dont ask me to out myself to help a cause...
those who know me, know what i do for my university's lgbt committee behind the scenes... greater diversity? fine, just not at the expense of my normality ta ;)
R :police:
No need to out yourself if you don't want to. It's great that you're doing things behind the scenes. Every little bit that all of us do helps make a difference.
y2g
Quote from: Kate on December 08, 2007, 05:28:21 PM
Quote from: Nero on December 08, 2007, 05:13:48 PM
passing means you can open your door to a plumber from a company you've never used before and be referred to as 'sir' if ftm or 'ma'am' if mtf.
Ah, well then I dunno...
If strangers were constantly "sirring" me, then my experience would conflict with who I am, so I wouldn't be "living as my target gender" according to my needs. I'd KNOW my truth, but I wouldn't be LIVING it. At least not socially.
My point was that it's possible for me to open that door, have the plumber realize I was born male, and STILL hear "miss" and be treated with respect as Kate.
~Kate~
well that is different. one thing is - how can we ever know if one has read us and still treating us as who we are or not?
personally, i would be happy with such. i would'nt care if everyone knew i was born female if i was still treated and respected as a man.
but i'm not a man in peoples' eyes. i'm a big butch woman.
also. just a note. i really appreciate the discussion here. i agree with a lot of points made. i like for topics to sprout other topics and issues. such is real conversation. so continue. i am enjoying reading all this. i just wanted to clarify my use of the word passing and the orginal question.
so go on. i do not know when of if i will ever be able to pass, so any discussion on the subject is valuable to me.
Hi Nero
I'm a big butch woman. "That's my mommy!" She left me at a truck stop when I was jest a we baby.
Just kidin, Wing Walker calls herself the diesel dyke. ;D
Cindy
Quote from: Nero on December 08, 2007, 05:42:31 PM
well that is different. one thing is - how can we ever know if one has read us and still treating us as who we are or not?
personally, i would be happy with such. i would'nt care if everyone knew i was born female if i was still treated and respected as a man.
but i'm not a man in peoples' eyes. i'm a big butch woman.
also. just a note. i really appreciate the discussion here. i agree with a lot of points made. i like for topics to sprout other topics and issues. such is real conversation. so continue. i am enjoying reading all this. i just wanted to clarify my use of the word passing and the orginal question.
so go on. i do not know when of if i will ever be able to pass, so any discussion on the subject is valuable to me.
Thanks for bringing up these topics Nero. This one has particular resonance to my situation, which in some ways parallels yours.
zythyra
I think it is easier for an FtM to live without cissexual privilege than a MtF. Men do not get scrutinized like we do and homophobic men, the bane to the existence of the poorly presenting MtF, could give a rot less than about whether or not an FtM looks like a man or a butch woman.
I see FtMs getting most of their support from the lesbian community. That kind of support does not exist for MtFs. Gay men tolerate trans women but do not understand us. They think that we are "changing our sex" to make it easier to get men. I don't know how many gay men i have met who don't get the fact that a trans woman would be a lesbian. So other than than the fact that it would be very frustrating to always here ma'am when you want to hear Sir, I think it wouldn't be devastating to deal with.
Quote from: cindybc on December 08, 2007, 05:54:52 PM
Hi Nero
I'm a big butch woman. "That's my mommy!" She left me at a truck stop when I was jest a we baby.
Just kidin, Wing Walker calls herself the diesel dyke. ;D
Cindy
I love taking my car for service. Generally I have found honest shops but I have fun with those who are less than honest.
When a service advisor gives me a diagnosis and estimate that are just plain horsefeathers I ask them if they are telling me so because I am a woman, a blonde, or both?
After I let them sputter and stutter a bit I tell them that I am a "diesel dyke" and that I know how my car works, so don't give me a bunch of stuff.
That routine totally disarms them and then I ask for the service manager, ready to do it all over again.
I am not a small woman so I don't mind using the dyke identification.
Wing Walker
Quote from: melissa90299 on December 08, 2007, 05:59:05 PM
I think it is easier for an FtM to live without cissexual privilege than a MtF. Men do not get scrutinized like we do and homophobic men, the bane to the existence of the poorly presenting MtF, could give a rot less than about whether or not an FtM looks like a man or a butch woman.
I see FtMs getting most of their support from the lesbian community. That kind of support does not exist for MtFs. Gay men tolerate trans women but do not understand us. They think that we are "changing our sex" to make it easier to get men. I don't know how many gay men i have met who don't get the fact that a trans woman would be a lesbian. So other than than the fact that it would be very frustrating to always here ma'am when you want to hear Sir, I think it wouldn't be devastating to deal with.
it's easier in terms of the fact that the vast majority of transphobic discrimination and violence is perpetrated against transwomen.
i don't know about others, but the fact i am seen as a woman instead of a man is devastating for me. i have nothing at all against the queer community, but i am tired of the 'dyke' stares and comments. i don't like going out with a woman and being seen as her lesbian lover.
i am not a dyke. i am not a butch. i am not a woman period.
the experiences of transmen and transwomen are different. one does not have it better or easier than another.
unpassable transwoman (those who don't look like women, for those who dislike the term 'passable') are more likely to face transphobia.
unpassable transmen have no way of declaring their manhood other than vocalizing to people that they are male. there is nothing an unpassable transman can do to make it clear they are presenting as male.
testesterone takes a more savage toll on a woman than estrogen on a man. thus, many of the effects of testosterone on transwomen cannot be rectified and are hard to overcome.
transmen do not have the option of truly fixing their bodies. the options available leave a guy with poor results. even the best outcome (meta) leaves a guy looking abnormal down there at best.
i've come to terms with my genitals, but this still remains a great source of pain for many transman. even if other men sharing the locker room have no clue he's trans, there will still be stares and maybe questions. he will never look like a normal man down below.
imagine your only surgical option being an obviously malformed vagina.
most transwomen need SRS to be whole. but transmen's genital surgery does not leave one whole.
the lack of a penis is a great source of pain and dysphoria for many transmen. how could it not be? when all of society says manhood equals a penis?
sexism cuts both ways. feminine men are demonized, imagine how a man without a dick feels.
i used to think transwomen were luckier. i thought there could be no more degrading position than to be a man born female. then i realized it was beyond arrogant of me to assume my hardships were greater than anyone else's.
a really tacky cliche, but true: the grass is always greener on the other side.
and none of this is to discount the world-wide violence against transwomen, which troubles me greatly.
Posted on: December 08, 2007, 08:14:25 PM
One more thing i'd like to point out (and this is not specifically directed at you melissa or anyone here).
Transmen are not necessarily strangers to violent crime. I may not have experienced transphobic violence, but i know what it is to rely on your wits to get out of rape and possible murder. i know what it is to targeted for robbery because of appearing to be female.
thanks for the clarification about the "passing" term nero ;) it shouldn't be such a nightmare to figure out what it implies >sigh<
Quote from: Nero on December 08, 2007, 04:47:54 PM
i'm under the weather so i'll keep this short and to the point.
the term 'passing' is used for clarity in this topic, nothing else. i agree it's not accurate either.
the term 'passing' for purposes of this topic means looking enough like your true gender to not hear the wrong titles and pronouns on a regular basis. not hearing 'ma'am' and 'she' if ftm and not hearing 'sir' and 'he' if mtf when dealing with complete strangers.
that's it. no more no less.
also, i don't see this as having anything to do with self-love, self-acceptance, or self-completeness.
the mythic narcissus would not be comfortable walking through life if he was constantly mistaken for and treated as something he was not.
That's not passing then, that's acceptance. And yes it is hard to live any kind of life without some level of acceptance by those around you. We are social creatures and we crave community, and if you are unable to get that, it can be very painful and be very difficult to live your life irrespective of even gender issues. Passing is an action not a goal. Acceptance however is a goal. Acceptance from others and acceptance from within. Those are the hurdles that are there for our community and many others.
I hope eventually you are able to get the acceptance you want Nero.
Quote from: Nero on December 06, 2007, 10:31:46 PM
And honestly - most transmen who 'claim' to pass without hrt are passing as 12 year olds.
I don't know about transwomen, but any transman who truly passes as a MAN and not a little kid without HRT must be IS of some sort.
And yet somehow many brave and doughty female-bodied warriors and sailors of history who went to war and passed as men managed to do it without HRT.
She went into a tailor shop
And dressed in men's array
And stepped on board a vessel
To convey herself away
Oh to convey herself away
Before you step on board, sir
Your name I'd like to know
She smiled all in her countenance
They call me Jackaroe
Oh they call me Jackaroe
Your waist is light and slender
Your fingers are neat and small
Your cheeks too red and rosy
To face the cannonball
Oh to face the cannonball
I know my waist is slender
My fingers neat and small
But it would not make me tremble
To see ten thousand fall
Oh to see ten thousand fall--from the song "Jackaroe" (Trad.)
Passing isn't a requirement to live in one's target gender. Passing is sometimes required to gain the acceptance of peeps in society. What peeps? those that use violence and hate against trans peeps that dont fullfill society's stereotypes.
Quote from: Hypatia on December 08, 2007, 10:59:42 PM
Quote from: Nero on December 06, 2007, 10:31:46 PM
And honestly - most transmen who 'claim' to pass without hrt are passing as 12 year olds.
I don't know about transwomen, but any transman who truly passes as a MAN and not a little kid without HRT must be IS of some sort.
And yet somehow many brave and doughty female-bodied warriors and sailors of history who went to war and passed as men managed to do it without HRT.
She went into a tailor shop
And dressed in men's array
And stepped on board a vessel
To convey herself away
Oh to convey herself away
Before you step on board, sir
Your name I'd like to know
She smiled all in her countenance
They call me Jackaroe
Oh they call me Jackaroe
Your waist is light and slender
Your fingers are neat and small
Your cheeks too red and rosy
To face the cannonball
Oh to face the cannonball
I know my waist is slender
My fingers neat and small
But it would not make me tremble
To see ten thousand fall
Oh to see ten thousand fall
--from the song "Jackaroe" (Trad.)
things were different back then. women had a dress code. women wore dresses. nowadays it's very hard to pass as men because of the freedom of dress and expresion women have. it's not a bad thing, but it sill makes it hard for us. we just look like butches in this day and age. trust me, i've done all i can. without hrt, i just look like a butch female.
Quote from: Nero on December 09, 2007, 12:51:25 AM
Quote from: Hypatia on December 08, 2007, 10:59:42 PM
Quote from: Nero on December 06, 2007, 10:31:46 PM
And honestly - most transmen who 'claim' to pass without hrt are passing as 12 year olds.
I don't know about transwomen, but any transman who truly passes as a MAN and not a little kid without HRT must be IS of some sort.
And yet somehow many brave and doughty female-bodied warriors and sailors of history who went to war and passed as men managed to do it without HRT.
She went into a tailor shop
And dressed in men's array
And stepped ...
Your name I'd like to know
She smiled all in her countenance
They call me Jackaroe
Oh they call me Jackaroe
...
--from the song "Jackaroe" (Trad.)
things were different back then. women had a dress code. women wore dresses. nowadays it's very hard to pass as men because of the freedom of dress and expresion women have. it's not a bad thing, but it sill makes it hard for us. we just look like butches in this day and age. trust me, i've done all i can. without hrt, i just look like a butch female.
Plus people didn't need birth certificates, driver's licenses, and that slop.
also, note that the singer of the song uses "she" rather than "he" I'm sure those men felt miserable whenever they were referred to like that.
I'm not knocking the song. I guess I'm saying it is hard to truly peg some of these issues.
Your OK hon, just follow me. Just watch your step, I wouldn't want to have to go fetch you in that dusty old gulch.
Cindy
Maybe. I wasnt one of those lucky peeps though. Peeps always saw a man in a dress pretending to be a woman ::). It wasnt until after my FFS that everything started to make sense. Life makes sense now but it has cost me money, pain and many months of recovery. Worth it? darn right it is!
Quote from: Butterfly on December 09, 2007, 02:49:03 AM
Maybe. I wasnt one of those lucky peeps though. Peeps always saw a man in a dress pretending to be a woman ::). It wasnt until after my FFS that everything started to make sense. Life makes sense now but it has cost me money, pain and many months of recovery. Worth it? darn right it is!
You look very fem in your photo (a bit like Shania Twain) , so I wouldn't worry too much..
I guess but not everybody succeeds.
Quote from: Butterfly on December 09, 2007, 02:49:03 AM
Maybe. I wasnt one of those lucky peeps though. Peeps always saw a man in a dress pretending to be a woman ::). It wasnt until after my FFS that everything started to make sense. Life makes sense now but it has cost me money, pain and many months of recovery. Worth it? darn right it is!
Butterfly, I find it hard to believe that you ever looked like a man! :)
y2g
Quote from: y2gender on December 09, 2007, 07:22:56 AM
Quote from: Butterfly on December 09, 2007, 02:49:03 AM
Maybe. I wasnt one of those lucky peeps though. Peeps always saw a man in a dress pretending to be a woman ::). It wasnt until after my FFS that everything started to make sense. Life makes sense now but it has cost me money, pain and many months of recovery. Worth it? darn right it is!
Butterfly, I find it hard to believe that you ever looked like a man! :)
y2g
Funny you mentioned that. Those who have strong masculine features pre FFS wind up "passable" afterwards but not beautiful.
Hey if I looked like Butterfly and Jeannette I would be a movie star and have my mug on all the magazines in the country, including The National Enquierer. "hee, hee, hee."
But then I've grown kind of fond of the old bat Cindy
Quote from: cindybc on December 09, 2007, 06:18:45 PM
Hey if I looked like Butterfly and Jeannette I would be a movie star and have my mug on all the magazines in the country, including The National Enquierer. "hee, hee, hee."
But then I've grown kind of fond of the old bat Cindy
Yes, some of us can only wish. But what is so awesome about you, Cindy, is how well you accept yourself and enjoy life!
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)
Thank you, thank you Cindy says as she still holds the mic and steps out from behind the podium. She wore a floor length white gown with all those little sparklies. She cautiously takes a bow, first to the right then to the left. And the crowd goes wild screaming and whistling and crankin up the noise makers. and throwing their hats and other odd and ends of who knows what into the air and, oh my gosh, multi colored balloons released to float up to the ceiling.
Ah what a wonderful standing ovation huh? Well can't help it I am a dreamer with a optimistic view on things. Like Wing Walker says. If a farmer told here there was a hossy under that pile of horse manure she would dig to the bottom bare hands looking for the pony.
Cindy
[NO ONE WILL EVER ACCEPT YOU AS A FEMALE IF THEY KNOW YOU HAD ONCE BEEN MALE.
example.I dated the most handsome boy at my college.He did not know about my ''secret''/He thought i was f.We dined out several times. He was trying to have sex or even better have a relationship with me.Her was really attracted.During our last dinner i told him about me/He told me.Thanks DUDE. i am not gay
example 2.People from my past will never say i look like a woman.But 100% of people i meet nowdays call me miss and i like making out with boys in clubs etc as a woman(just making out because sex is not an option since i go stealth and i am pre op.Am i crazy?Are my old friends just negative?NO........IT ;S JUST HOW PEOPLE BRAIN FUCTION......once a boy always a :embarrassed: :embarrassed: :embarrassed: :embarrassed: boy in their eyes..... (if the know you were boy:).
some do accept....
relationships are harder....
i got that from a guy i dated... 'ugh you have a penis' and left forever :(
R :police:
wasn;t it dreadful? i hate that feeling.but i keep on pushing my self to the edges being stealth in romantic relationships.
im stealth at work... id just break it off if i got with someone... i cant risk em telling everyone :S
R :police:
Quote from: Veronica Secret on December 09, 2007, 10:43:28 AM
Quote from: y2gender on December 09, 2007, 07:22:56 AM
Quote from: Butterfly on December 09, 2007, 02:49:03 AM
Maybe. I wasnt one of those lucky peeps though. Peeps always saw a man in a dress pretending to be a woman ::). It wasnt until after my FFS that everything started to make sense. Life makes sense now but it has cost me money, pain and many months of recovery. Worth it? darn right it is!
Butterfly, I find it hard to believe that you ever looked like a man! :)
y2g
Funny you mentioned that. Those who have strong masculine features pre FFS wind up "passable" afterwards but not beautiful.
I have to disagree with that. If you look at this woman's pre and post FFS pictures, you will see why. Incidentally, Elizabeth (the woman from the photographs is a Dr. O graduate)
http://community.webshots.com/album/87429930qRQZoD/2
tink :icon_chick:
Elizabeth is very beautiful on the front shot post FFS, but I'm not so enthousiastic about profile and quarter shots, still looks very nice, but not in same ballpark as frontal.
But, It depends mostly on what was the strong masculine feature pre-ffs.
The most difficult thing to fix is jaw and chin height, width is much easier. In her
case, broad jaw, not very high chin and jaw. That means the upper lip area remains
proportional, which will not be the case no matter the op if you've got a jaw that's high
vertically.
The eye area, and cranium width is the most impossible area to change and if its not OK, you won't
look good no matter the op. Most good looking post FFS, have high cheekbones and a wide cranium, that gives an oval face. If you've got a narrow head, even shortening the chin will leave you with a long face. Another thing that's important to beauty, a high vertical forehead, many men have short forehead that slopes heavily backwards, this is impossible to fix even with FFS. With a forehead that',s 1/3 facial height, you've got perfect proportions. Eyes with one eye distance in between and one eye distance from side of head is ideal, this takes a wide cheekbone to accomplish.
Anyway, strong male traits are present in many models, and it doesn't stop them from being considered very beautiful, beauty is not just about male and female. That's why I find many TS are in fact beautiful including many here :-).
I thought Elizabeth was very beautiful before the surgery.
Is there something wrong with me? Because I need to know.
Rebis
Quote from: Rebis on December 11, 2007, 10:53:25 PM
I thought Elizabeth was very beautiful before the surgery.
Is there something wrong with me? Because I need to know.
Rebis
Well there must be something wrong with me also because I thought she look great before surgery.
Most thought I looked great before my surgery too.
Frontal flash photos don't show much actually.
That's why I'm still somewhat critical of side and profile,
because I think surgeons concentrate too much on the front
view which often is not that bad and neglect side and quarter views.
Light to medium bossing doesn't show well under flash, since there is a flash sending light in a way the eye is not shadowed by the bossing. I posted a picture here in the sun which showed my pre FFS problem. I bet she had a similar issue. My nose from the front had just a slightly larger tip and from a top angle, the fact the nostril were not visible from the front, actually from any angle but under, didn't really show. From the side, the fact my nose bridge had collapsed was visible, and my nose was probably 50% longer than now!!!
As for the jaw, I'm all for a wide jaws in women (but not a high chin height). Paris Hilton and Angelina Jolie have wide jaws than Elizabeth's pre-FFS photos and I do too. If the chin is not high and square, I think jaw and chin work is pointless.
Quote from: Keira on December 12, 2007, 03:11:13 AM
Most thought I looked great before my surgery too.
Frontal flash photos don't show much actually.
That's why I'm still somewhat critical of side and profile,
because I think surgeons concentrate too much on the front
view which often is not that bad and neglect side and quarter views.
Light to medium bossing doesn't show well under flash, since there is a flash sending light in a way the eye is not shadowed by the bossing. I posted a picture here in the sun which showed my pre FFS problem. I bet she had a similar issue. My nose from the front had just a slightly larger tip and from a top angle, the fact the nostril were not visible from the front, actually from any angle but under, didn't really show. From the side, the fact my nose bridge had collapsed was visible, and my nose was probably 50% longer than now!!!
As for the jaw, I'm all for a wide jaws in women (but not a high chin height). Paris Hilton and Angelina Jolie have wide jaws than Elizabeth's pre-FFS photos and I do too. If the chin is not high and square, I think jaw and chin work is pointless.
true. i've seen people who pass perfectly in their avatars but when you meet them in person, they don't and are constantly called by the wrong titles and pronouns.
Well I can guarantee that this is a hundred percent me.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi11.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa191%2Fcynthiag932%2F57340021.jpg&hash=3eebfa136f0f730f9eceb58ddbc487ac6d1cd7f2)
Lions Main and all. I call my hair my main and I gots the claws to go with it. "hee, hee, hee."
Not a lot to look at but that' s me.
Cindy
im with nero... there are some like that... then theres those like me, that cant take a photo for fudge.... and pass really nicely and never get the wrong pronouns... only look like crap camera :P
Your right Kiera, side and quater are MORE important imo, than front, then again, a kurt russel chin might need sorting :P personally, i HATE how my mouth is so small, and my jaw so wide, its depressing, and i swear everyone clocks me because of it :(
R :police:
Hi Rachael if the two pics you posted here are authentic then I must say you are very much a good looking girl.
Cindy
yep, bruital honest photos... as i know VERY little about or use much makeup :P
R :police:
apparently elizabeth didn't think she was "beautiful" since she decided to have facial feminization surgery to improve her masculine features ::)
I know I'm kind of hijacking this thread, but I think these series of photos could be of interest to many.
The first three first shots were taken in month before FFS, there the worse shots I could find, I hate!!! them. Look at my hairline!! Horrid. FFS didn't touch my hairline, just HRT helped.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi199.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa85%2FKeirasthings%2FIMG_6604.jpg&hash=e4d6a53021b768cec82df79888c7a938a2f92fd6)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi199.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa85%2FKeirasthings%2FIMG_7060.jpg&hash=654dae657e656b2ac11a39d1192ab5d79ef6cdb3)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi199.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa85%2FKeirasthings%2FIMG_7581.jpg&hash=fe8e476cb1f45120b78270c981d9ae551d7260b0)
Last two, taken in same period as first 3, yet they look much much better. I wanted to illustrate how angle matters.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi199.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa85%2FKeirasthings%2F45month.jpg&hash=a43b9eec37eb7473d6400fbfba5bca8b446a834d)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi199.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa85%2FKeirasthings%2FIMG_7046-2.jpg&hash=3fd349a3e33dfd4c395a44d028ea5ba539287418)
My nose needed improvement for sure, I couldn't breathe through it. And my forehead bossing was very visible in overhead light. Also, my eyes were about half my current size. I like the result immensely, it helped both passability AND beauty. So, hey, well spent 10K.
======
This is something we never see.
A precise photo Evolution in the first 5 months.
As you can see, for some, the change is drastic in very little time.
I've had electro done 10 years ago, so that wasn't in play.
I had FFS 5 months after starting FFS.
Initial
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi199.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa85%2FKeirasthings%2Forigine.jpg&hash=170927b12439d34d3a0519f1c3c1cdc2f89ef800)
Month 1.5 month-2
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi199.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa85%2FKeirasthings%2FMonth15.jpg&hash=ded0dd0b9e5bdd097e7d8e34b33ca40fa1315459)
Month 2-2.5
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi199.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa85%2FKeirasthings%2FMonth2.jpg&hash=507dc1bc627c3bba50fdf14c10db0b8c3e7c434d)
Month 2.5-3.5
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi199.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa85%2FKeirasthings%2FMonth25.jpg&hash=d13dc353fe32d719d68bf49521b9e7939a4ef45a)
Month 3.5-4
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi199.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa85%2FKeirasthings%2FMonth35-4months_V2.jpg&hash=4acdf7019260f646b3a2d131e698b4ae799f5588)
Month 4-4.5
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi199.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa85%2FKeirasthings%2FMonth4-45months_V2.jpg&hash=a7f28365723649f709d5d86bcddfb2c89e58a36c)
======
So, did I pass prior to FFS, my estimation was about 90-95% inside, and 85-90% in the sun. It was early in HRT, but for me its obvious that the things I wanted changed would not be affected by HRT.
9 months post FFS
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi199.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa85%2FKeirasthings%2FIMG_4922.jpg&hash=c59ce91a6b4fd697700b3042bbbef9cf8883b0aa)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi199.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa85%2FKeirasthings%2FIMG_5776.jpg&hash=8b3e0e92b4c586aaebe91500d284e8028bb6330e)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi199.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa85%2FKeirasthings%2FIMG_5864.jpg&hash=5e197d3517f8b9a266c9ad21559efcde457843f9)
Quote from: Keira on December 12, 2007, 07:26:10 AM
I know I'm kind of hijacking this thread, but I think these series of photos could be of interest to many.
The first three first shots were taken in month before FFS, there the worse shots I could find, I hate!!! them. Look at my hairline!! Horrid. FFS didn't touch my hairline, just HRT helped.
So, did I pass prior to FFS, my estimation was about 90-95% inside, and 85-90% in the sun. It was early in HRT, but for me its obvious that the things I wanted changed would not be affected by HRT.
Your pics were really good Keira and I always admire your honesty and openess in presenting them. You must have taken a lot of photo's through every section of your transition which is something I never bothered to do. Your early pics look a bit how my brother looked when he was younger and then the recent one's look totally convincingly female.....I love IMG_4922 that's a really nice pic...
I think you've indirectly answered the question started by the thread......
Depends on your social network.
the most important part of living as a woman is having people treat you as one, passing helps allot with this though there are plenty of people out there who will see you for you, not just see a ->-bleeped-<-.
true maud, and i know i pass, as i fell into stealth at work... but passing =/= beauty :P
Kiera; you look female even in your most butch photos! ive seen more male looking natal women :P
R :police:
Never tested for IS, don't even want to know.
But, from measurement point of view, all
my measurement face or body
are at the low end (not even average) of the "female" range
EXCEPT height. Very strange. That's why I looked
like that even pre HRT. Also, my face was very round
because I weight 25 pounds more than I do now!!!
When I was younger and dressing neutral, nothing
overtly female. I often heard people wonder if I was male or female...
I was already plucking my beard out with tweezers, that's dedicated stuff :D
I think you had a touch or look of the knofler brothers about you in the early pics....
The transition is quite incredable and if I had known you at the start I wouldn't have thought it was possible......
thanks for sharing...
Quote from: Nero on December 12, 2007, 03:33:28 AMi've seen people who pass perfectly in their avatars but when you meet them in person, they don't and are constantly called by the wrong titles and pronouns.
I'm the opposite. In person, people look at me and see a woman. But my photos are mostly crap. Cameras hate me for some reason. I'm so dismayed by my photos that it's hard for me to believe what everyone keeps telling me: they only see a woman. But experience bears out that I really am read as a woman everywhere, it's always "ma'am" and "she" now.
The other day I went for an ultrasound. They made me change into a hospital gown and led me to the women's waiting room. While there, the other women in their gowns made girltalk with me. One of them said, "I'm going to get my breasts flattened." I looked puzzled. She explained, "Mammogram." Oh yeah, duh. I haven't had any mammograms yet, but I know what it is, and should have caught on immediately. I hoped my clueless response wasn't a tell. It wasn't. If she'd read me as male, no way would this conversation have taken place. So now I know I can be read as a woman up close during sustained conversation. It's getting better all the time...
Quote from: cindybc on December 12, 2007, 04:50:09 AM
Well I can guarantee that this is a hundred percent me.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi11.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa191%2Fcynthiag932%2F57340021.jpg&hash=3eebfa136f0f730f9eceb58ddbc487ac6d1cd7f2)
Lions Main and all. I call my hair my main and I gots the claws to go with it. "hee, hee, hee."
Not a lot to look at but that' s me.
Cindy
You look very female. I think it helps to have a slighter, more feminine build to start with. Love the mane!
Quote from: Keira on December 12, 2007, 09:12:56 AM
Never tested for IS, don't even want to know.
But, from measurement point of view, all
my measurement face or body
are at the low end (not even average) of the "female" range
EXCEPT height. Very strange. That's why I looked
like that even pre HRT. Also, my face was very round
because I weight 25 pounds more than I do now!!!
When I was younger and dressing neutral, nothing
overtly female. I often heard people wonder if I was male or female...
I was already plucking my beard out with tweezers, that's dedicated stuff :D
Thankyou Keira for sharing your experiences and photos. I have similar features to you pre-ffs, so I am really hanging out for the surgery and the changes. I also would like to keep a strong but feminine jaw, I find them very attractive on nearly every natal woman I've known or seen. I definitely need cheek implants though because mine are flattened and sharp.
Regarding the OP question, whether you can live as your target gender without passing, IMO has been pretty well covered here by everyone and I agree with . I think being accepted is important without a doubt, and that does not neccessarily mean you pass. In your workplace, in your neighbourhood, in your community, amongst your friends and family, being accepted and respected is a godsend. Acceptance and living a peaceful co-existence with others is important to me, without it life would be unbearable and painful.
Passing and living in stealth is an ideal position to be in, unfortunately not all will be able to through no fault of their own. As the lines are becoming more blurred between the sexes, who knows what society will be like in the distant future. ;D
Hi Keira
May I suggest that you use the last or bottom picture with the red top for your avatar? You look really good in that one. But then you look good in all your photos.
Cindy
Quote from: Keira on December 12, 2007, 07:26:10 AM
I know I'm kind of hijacking this thread, but I think these series of photos could be of interest to many.
Keira, thank you for posting these pictures. It really helps those of us starting out on HRT. It gives us an example of what changes we might see after several months to a year of hormones, I appreciate it. Meghan
Quote from: Rachael on December 12, 2007, 04:57:42 AM
im with nero... there are some like that... then theres those like me, that cant take a photo for fudge.... and pass really nicely and never get the wrong pronouns... only look like crap camera :P
Yeah I don't photograph well. I look better on video in motion. Or at least I think I do. I have a hard time getting good photos because I'm so pale and I just have my camera phone and my apartment lighting. I used to have photoshop which helped in adjusting the lighting. But now I don't. So it's hard to get picturers where I'm not so pale as to be featureless.
Most time those that don't photograph just
don't know how to take a good photo.
Many model's are deathly white. Its lighting, proper lenses
distance, depth of field, and
proper makeup (and some post production)
that makes them look so good.
If you saw them on the street, they look as bland as can be.
If you look bland, maybe you wear the wrong color clothes.
If I wear white. My face looks like a vampire. But, if
I wear deep autumn colors, like orange, gold, aubergine, etc.
My golden beige skin tone just
pops out and I look much better.
If your skin is white with little pink, bright monochromatic
colors may be for you. There are plenty of sites which
determines your color pallette for your skin tone, eyes and hair.
Quote from: Keira on December 13, 2007, 04:07:14 PM
Most time those that don't photograph just
don't know how to take a good photo.
Ha, you think. I don't know if taking photos using my camera phone and aiming it blindly back at myself is the best way to get the best photo. It's kind of a crap shoot. I've never gone and gotten myself photographed by someone who knows what they are doing. I did have a photographer come up to me at a festival and give me her card, wanting me to model for her. But I chickened out.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi111.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fn125%2FBelladonna_06%2FBelladonna%2Ffhsjkhdfjkhdfs.jpg&hash=3f6ba214199f99dded88864673b3f47ef0de5e03) I know i posted this in the bored topic, but after Fruity telling me i didnt pass, and looked like a teen boy. i wish to call an objection to the prosecution....
R :police:
Hmm,
12 pages of fury!
Yeah!
So, hmm, let me address the original post.
From my own perspective.
For me passing isn't an issue.
I don't mean by that that I was born looking like Kiera Knightly o f Tyra Banks.
I mean it doesn't matter to me what people see me as.
I still havn't had facial hair removal, (which is annoying) but I just don't care in some respects.
I'd rather people see me as I am and accept that, than try and wait for their acceptance ofter I have finished medical procedures.
The thing is, it seems to me that acceptance comes from within. Not without.
I accept myself, And so, less and less do I find myself caring what others think of me.
Sure it still happens, but I catch it more, and remind myself that "what others think of me is none of my business".
That's really my Mantra. And it's so true.
It's sorta like confidence and flirting: Ir you want to flirt with someone and you are showing yourself to be shy and timid, no one will be interested usually as a flirt target.
If you are confident, even if you fake it, you seem much more interesting too people.
The same applies here. It doesn't matter what I wear, if I walk in like I own the place, or at least just don't care what anyone thinks, that impresses people. I have gotten many comments about how impressed other people were with how I am not intimidated.
I even had a perfect stranger come up and ask to shake my hand on the outdoor mall a couple of weeks ago.
Courage impresses people. And makes a very strong positive impression.
I almost don't even think about it any more. It is of course always there, but not as an obstacle.
Does that make sense? Whether people accept me doesn't matter. I accept me.
-Sarah
Quote from: Rachael on December 13, 2007, 07:53:38 PM
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi111.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fn125%2FBelladonna_06%2FBelladonna%2Ffhsjkhdfjkhdfs.jpg&hash=3f6ba214199f99dded88864673b3f47ef0de5e03) I know i posted this in the bored topic, but after Fruity telling me i didnt pass, and looked like a teen boy. i wish to call an objection to the prosecution....
R :police:
you look great. very soft. you really do look like a gg. even the chin and distance between nose and mouth are perfect. the overall build is right too.
I'm not so soft :-).
My build is so small its crazy, every woman I meet calls me thin and I eat 2200 calories a day (that's a LOT of calories), The way I'm going I'm going to wear size 4 tops and bottom within a year!! I just measured torso under the breast and I'm down to 30.5 inch!!! My chest muscles pre HRT were 40 (I was well built), now I'm 35.5 inch! (Size 6) and wear tight 34B or small C and some 32's fit!!!. This causes a lot of problem finding clothing cause my frame is petite even if I'm tall, clothing for petite is usually much shorter!! If I fall to 4T (tall, which is not stocked in stores really) I'm worried I'll find nothing to wear in any stores (even those geared towards tall women!). Anyway, just my worry about finding normal clothings soon.
Well as long as we are hijacking this thread for a photo album...
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi128.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fp177%2Fsuchawato%2FSarahMurray_Studio_cute.jpg&hash=e7ddd7bc7c777296e4cc33e3d86e8c678fa441aa)
This was taken last Sunday for my friend Amanda's portraiture class
Quote from: Sarah on December 13, 2007, 11:43:11 PM
Well as long as we are hijacking this thread for a photo album...
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi128.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fp177%2Fsuchawato%2FSarahMurray_Studio_cute.jpg&hash=e7ddd7bc7c777296e4cc33e3d86e8c678fa441aa)
This was taken last Sunday for my friend Amanda's portraiture class
cute. love the red against your pale skin. dramatic effect.
Hi Rachael, well your A-1 in my books, I love your sense of humor as well as your looks. Wish I was 20 younger, well I may feel 20 years younger then I am but I'm afeared my looks don't agree with that. But I have a good knack at making people feel good and laugh, that 's my nature and it ain't never going to change now.
Cindy
Sarah has kissable shoulder-freckles. Yum.
I thought that too.
Hi Doc you can take the left shoulder and Rebis you take the right shoulder, problem solved. ;D
Cindy
Aww,
wow, what do I say to that?
*curtsies*,*blushes*
Thank you!
^_^
-Sarah
i have ->-bleeped-<- dysphoria....
personally, i cant be happy, or live a normal life, till i pass completely, and nobody knows my past... im a girl, i dont want to live my life as a transexual to others... its almost as bad as being a boy...
But this is just for me.
R :police:
Quote from: Rachael on December 16, 2007, 09:01:03 AM
i have ->-bleeped-<- dysphoria....
personally, i cant be happy, or live a normal life, till i pass completely, and nobody knows my past... im a girl, i dont want to live my life as a transexual to others... its almost as bad as being a boy...
But this is just for me.
R :police:
I like your perspective. It is far worse than being a boy. How other peeps see me is important to be accepted as the gender I say I am. To me peep's approval is as important as my own because I'm part of the world. I live in it, work in it, evolve in it, etc.
Quote from: Steph on December 05, 2007, 08:46:49 PM
A person can live their life as anything they want to, the problem is that if you are not accepted what's the point, their lives will be sheer misery; not really a life at all.
Steph
I just started reading this topic I 'm at page 3 had to comment. Let me ask this question how of you were accepted as who you were before your transition or now. I'm not out yet and still look like a guy. I never been accepted by a lot of people. Even a gay manager was trying get me come out the closet because he thought I was gay. I don't really plan being accepted afterward and it would be wonderful to go stealth and pass. It also good to have what i am on the inside somewhat match the outside. I am not doing this to pass or be accepted anyone but for myself. If I pass that would a great bonus. If I was worried about what others would think I stop what I'm doing. (To had update this woke up worried about this so I deleted part of it. Worried that someone might do it. this was not advice was suppose to be example. )
AnnaJasmine
Why so much negativity lately on the board?
Posted on: December 16, 2007, 12:11:22 PM
UPDATE
I looked the mirror realize why I been losing so much weight because passing is important to me. But it is not the only thing. The other day I went to Wal-Mart saw women definitely not all of them were beautiful physically. Some were balding, other has mustaches, and some just looked different. What I'm saying don't judge yourself to harshly.
Got to go I'm running late see ya later
Anna
Okay here we go again...
STAY ON TOPIC OR RISK HAVING YOUR REPLIES DELETED WITHOUT WARNING. THE TOPIC BEING DISCUSSED IS:
Can one live as their target gender without passing?
Steph
Quote from: Rachael on December 16, 2007, 09:01:03 AM
i have ->-bleeped-<- dysphoria....
personally, i cant be happy, or live a normal life, till i pass completely, and nobody knows my past... im a girl, i dont want to live my life as a transexual to others... its almost as bad as being a boy...
But this is just for me.
R :police:
I totally agree with you Rachael and that is whole objective of a transition..
Posted on: December 16, 2007, 02:05:56 PM
Quote from: Steph on December 16, 2007, 01:44:11 PM
Okay here we go again...
STAY ON TOPIC OR RISK HAVING YOUR REPLIES DELETED WITHOUT WARNING. THE TOPIC BEING DISCUSSED IS:
Can one live as their target gender without passing?
Steph
you need to clarify who is off topic Steph, as I didn't see any posts in the thread that were off topic?
Quote from: Berliegh
Quote from: Steph on December 16, 2007, 01:44:11 PM
Okay here we go again...
STAY ON TOPIC OR RISK HAVING YOUR REPLIES DELETED WITHOUT WARNING. THE TOPIC BEING DISCUSSED IS:
Can one live as their target gender without passing?
Steph
you need to clarify who is off topic Steph, as I didn't see any posts in the thread that were off topic?
The topic is turning into a picture gallery. That was not the intent of the question asked.
Steph
Quote from: Steph on December 16, 2007, 02:16:31 PM
Quote from: Berliegh
Quote from: Steph on December 16, 2007, 01:44:11 PM
Okay here we go again...
STAY ON TOPIC OR RISK HAVING YOUR REPLIES DELETED WITHOUT WARNING. THE TOPIC BEING DISCUSSED IS:
Can one live as their target gender without passing?
Steph
you need to clarify who is off topic Steph, as I didn't see any posts in the thread that were off topic?
The topic is turning into a picture gallery. That was not the intent of the question asked.
Steph
...wasn't that relating to the topic anyway?
Quote from: Berliegh on December 16, 2007, 02:22:42 PM
Quote from: Steph on December 16, 2007, 02:16:31 PM
Quote from: Berliegh
Quote from: Steph on December 16, 2007, 01:44:11 PM
Okay here we go again...
STAY ON TOPIC OR RISK HAVING YOUR REPLIES DELETED WITHOUT WARNING. THE TOPIC BEING DISCUSSED IS:
Can one live as their target gender without passing?
Steph
you need to clarify who is off topic Steph, as I didn't see any posts in the thread that were off topic?
The topic is turning into a picture gallery. That was not the intent of the question asked.
Steph
...wasn't that relating to the topic anyway?
Nope...
This link refers:
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,22813.msg174433.html#msg174433
and then this one:
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,22813.msg174450.html#msg174450
and so on...
End of debate!
Steph
Quote from: Steph on December 16, 2007, 02:42:32 PM
Nope...
This link refers:
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,22813.msg174433.html#msg174433
and then this one:
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,22813.msg174450.html#msg174450
and so on...
End of debate!
Steph
Keira posted a series of picture's directly related to the topic and I and other forum members found them very iinteresting as to what can be achieved with a small amount of facial surgery. Her point was directly related to the topic and for many (like Keira, like me) their main objective is to live as their target gender and pass.
Quote from: Renate on December 16, 2007, 08:22:45 AM
To return to the original question: Can one live as their target gender without passing?
All I know is that I can live without passing.
Renate
I am certainly glad that you can. Seriously, I'm happy for you. But I just can't. I am not yet able to live as my target gender, but the thought of not passing mortifies me. Maybe I am just not as secure as I should be at this point.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Well, my photo's were somewhat related to the topic since it dealth with
passing and the effect of HRT and FFS on passing.
The other photos, well probably not related to te topic.
I should probably have created my own thread for my photos
and indeed might still do it tuesday when I've got more time.
Quote from: Keira on December 16, 2007, 07:01:57 PM
Well, my photo's were somewhat related to the topic since it dealth with
passing and the effect of HRT and FFS on passing.
The other photos, well probably not related to te topic.
I should probably have created my own thread for my photos
and indeed might still do it tuesday when I've got more time.
Hi Keira. You should definitely start a photo thread. You are one of the few girls who actually feel comfortable displaying the before and after in more than one view. And I really think it helps a lot of new and young transitioners.
I found Keira pictures very helpful. The reason I took my position because issue is how I feel about myself. It sometimes feels like passing is unattainable for me. I been a guy physical for 33 years and worried that some of that guyiness might stick or I might make a poor woman. If the only way someone should transition if their going to accepted 100% and pass 100% of the time that is tough standard. Allot might might feel that this is unreachable. I find hard to believe if someone goes through transition then to never pass at all. I just don't think it possible.
I when I say something inappropriate or might could be taken the wrong way call me on please. Embarrassment is easier to take than worry. I was worried about this comment"If I was worried about what others would think I stop what I'm doing and delete this account." I was concerned that someone might of took as advice. I was trying make a point that if I let what most people think affect me to much I wouldn't be here.
Good morning all
AnnaJasmine
I met this other MtF at a TG function the other night, to be kind, she was not very passible, she told me how she lived in fear for her life anytime she is around Afrifcan-American men as she was attacked by a black man apparently just because of the way she looked. I just sympathized with her but I thought to myself how different my experiance is as I seem to get the opposite reaction. (lust)
I don't think I could live my life like that.
Quote from: Nero on December 16, 2007, 07:14:07 PM
Quote from: Keira on December 16, 2007, 07:01:57 PM
Well, my photo's were somewhat related to the topic since it dealth with
passing and the effect of HRT and FFS on passing.
The other photos, well probably not related to te topic.
I should probably have created my own thread for my photos
and indeed might still do it tuesday when I've got more time.
Hi Keira. You should definitely start a photo thread. You are one of the few girls who actually feel comfortable displaying the before and after in more than one view. And I really think it helps a lot of new and young transitioners.
Yes please, Keira. Your pictures have been tremendous! Ever since I heard of FFS I've been out there looking for information and pictures but too many only post a couple of pictures, which makes me think they're cherry picking the worst before and the best after.
Val
To respond to the O.P.
To me, the answer is yes. you can.
I say this, because it doesn't seem like living depends on passing or gender.
I still have facial hair issues, especially in the evenings, and it doesn't effect what my gender is or whether I continue my life or not.
I go to school, do my work, come home, pay my bills, and don't worry about it.
The only way I've found to get over my fear, has been to do what it is that I am afraid of.
Nothing else has worked. There wasn't an "easy" or "gentle" way to do it. I just had to be terrified, and do it anyway.
It seems to not bother me hardly as much now, but what is "living"?
I use the restroom of my choice, Am refered to with pronouns appropreate to my gender, although anyone who knows me or is arround me at the evening time can see signs of facial hair.
So what does "live as your target gender" mean?
I don't have a "target gender" I have a gender. It doesn't depend on my looks.
Gender and sex are two different things.
I have been living with my gender since I was a little kid, coming out doesn't change that.
So what does that mean?
-Sarah
i agree...
you dont have to pass to live AS your target gender....
To BE your target gender. you MUST pass completely...
R :police:
Hi Sarah
Good post and I could about say the same as you did. There certainly are elements of fear and probably rightly so, because if a person is not ready for it, the whole venture could end with disastrous results. If this is so, It may be preferable to defer from transitioning for a while longer and consult with a therapist. I found that once I jumped through the hoop the fear slowly left and I just went about my day just as any other regular woman that worked at the same place I did. Whether I pass or not? Well I guess that is questionable. I've not had anyone come back and ask me, or call my by the wrong pronouns. Nothing has given me cause to fear since I have been full time for 7 years now.
Cindy
Quote from: Rachael on December 17, 2007, 06:57:43 PM
i agree...
you dont have to pass to live AS your target gender....
To BE your target gender. you MUST pass completely...
See.... I'd have flipped that.
by be, i mean, totally BE that gender... outwardly, and inwardly... if people are respectful =/= accept as whatever gender you present.
R :police:
Quote from: Rachael on December 17, 2007, 09:04:56 PM
by be, i mean, totally BE that gender... outwardly, and inwardly... if people are respectful =/= accept as whatever gender you present.
R :police:
Of course,
if you take "totally BE that gender...inwardly..", literally, that brings up the question of chromosomes and DNA...
P.S. if you need more rockets I hear you can find anything in Turkey...
I agree with Rachael. You have to not just feel but know, totally convinced that the inner self and outer are one. Two souls merging into one there is only one you, completely. If one truly believes that in their mind then you are you and be it.
Cindy
Quote from: Sarah on December 17, 2007, 09:10:22 PM
Quote from: Rachael on December 17, 2007, 09:04:56 PM
by be, i mean, totally BE that gender... outwardly, and inwardly... if people are respectful =/= accept as whatever gender you present.
R :police:
Of course,
if you take "totally BE that gender...inwardly..", literally, that brings up the question of chromosomes and DNA...
P.S. if you need more rockets I hear you can find anything in Turkey...
no, i dont mean chromasomes... i mean inwardly:mentally, and outwardly:look only that gender.
If you are taken as a male, when you live as a female, you cannot be living the life of a woman.... you can live a quite close, nice litty parody, but without everyone, seeing JUST a girl when they look, interact, and are around you, socially your not a woman.. they might treat you LIKE a girl, but you wont be treated like another female. TRUST ME, ive seen the two sides of the 'this person is ts' and 'this is another girl' type social interatctions, thankfully, its all the latter thesedays.
like i said, anyone can live a life LIKE someone, its emulation, not integration...
can transwomen integrate into female society? sure. You just need to pass... this world isnt, and for a long time to come, WONT accept transpeople as just like natal men and woman. time to live in here and now.
R :police:
Quote from: Rachael on December 17, 2007, 06:57:43 PM
i agree...
you dont have to pass to live AS your target gender....
To BE your target gender. you MUST pass completely...
R :police:
This sounds good on the surface, but do you realize some natal women get clocked?
Back on topic: Yes, you can live as you true self, but you better have a thick skin. And I think where you live also plays into this. Some areas are more accepting than others. For example in my neck of the woods peoples attitude is generally "whatever floats your boat". People generally do not get verbal or physical here. I never heard a single negative remark during my transition; even when I had to out myself once to an auto mechanic. Anyways, I went into transition expecting stares, verbal insults and possibly more. My point being I employed a thick skin to survive that initial in between phase. You have to keep telling yourself "Things will get better" and keep moving forward.
And you don't have to pass completely. That is a myth as illustrated by what I said above about natals. You only need to get your appearance to fall somewhere within female norms. Mannerisms and voice are also very important. I'm not a runway model by a longshot. In fact I'm pretty plain looking and that's the key. I'm so nondescript I blend right in.
I agree with you Marlene. I have a natal female friend who is 6'2 and has large hands, large feet, and a deep voice. She's constantly being questioned about whether she's trans. It doesn't bug her, though, because she shrugs it off and carries on.
Yet I have another friend, also natal female, who's 6'1 and it does bug her. It rules her life almost. She seems obsessed with people not thinking she's trans. Loving husband, great kids, good life. It bothers her that she has to shop in shops that transwomen shop at and that people keep thinking she's trans.
People will often take you as you present. And your life is what you make it. I think when I posted previously, I hadn't thought about those two women, both of whom were born female, and neither of them passes consistently for female. Tall women get both sides of it. Sometimes seen as very attractive, sometimes questioned about their genetics. If you can carry off what Megan (first woman) does, then you can live, whether questioned or not. It's not an easy thing to do though.
Dennis
Quote from: Rachael on December 18, 2007, 05:57:32 AM
You just need to pass... this world isnt, and for a long time to come, WONT accept transpeople as just like natal men and woman. time to live in here and now.
I do live Here and Now. Very much so in fact. And in my experience, this simply isn't true - at least not as a blanket, universal statement for everyone, everywhere, and *especially* not for me. Although I guess
"just like natal men and woman" is very much open for interpretation, especially for anyone with a need for justification and fighting self-doubts about being "real."
Obviously, some people will treat non-passing TSs differently. But some people will treat fat women differently, short men differently, on and on. Are we REALLY suffering such a "special" trauma if we're treated different because of our history? Or is it just OUR particular baggage, our challenge?
A LOT of people now know I was born male. And those same people just do NOT care. I'm just Kate to them, a girl. It took time for people who knew me from before to begin seeing me this way, but it DID change. And I constantly marvel at how easily NEW people just see a woman. They've only known me as Kate, so my past is just a curiousity for them... but that past doesn't change who I am NOW to them.
The people of this world are suffering their OWN problems and challenges, many of them faaaar worse than this little GID thing we put on such a pedestal of pain. And if we give those people half a chance, stop demonizing them as the "Community" seems hell-bent on doing, realize that we're ALL in this life thing together, us with our problems and they with theirs... people might surprise you with how amazingly wonderful they can be.
It's not The Public that needs to get over it, it's
US.
~Kate~
thing is dennis, shes not, so it doesnt bother her...
a lot of natal females who get clocked its an occasional thing, followed by an apology usually...
Yeah some women get clocked, but you have to have that Femaleness, or Maleness about you, that once people know you, it negates all worry that your not what you seem... its one of my greatest advantages in passing, my voice is ONLY female, it really cant be mistaken for a boy... and my behaviour, and attitudes, and reactions are FEMALE... it can look like a girl, but if it doesnt behave like one, people wonder even more... One has to pass entirely in that respect. femininity and masculinity aside, there is a core gender that is expressed by someone, when you know them, or interact more closely. if that doesnt match your apearance, nomatter how good you look, your not that man or woman you want to be socially. like a man or woman yes, but you wont be one in other peoples eyes. Its a fine line, and even if some people know, have that core femaleness, or maleness, and people will actually forget, or when they find out, not belive it... THATS passing. THATS BEING your target gender.
R :police:
Quote from: Rachael on December 19, 2007, 09:35:03 AM
thing is dennis, shes not, so it doesnt bother her...
a lot of natal females who get clocked its an occasional thing, followed by an apology usually...
Yeah some women get clocked, but you have to have that Femaleness, or Maleness about you, that once people know you, it negates all worry that your not what you seem... its one of my greatest advantages in passing, my voice is ONLY female, it really cant be mistaken for a boy... and my behaviour, and attitudes, and reactions are FEMALE... it can look like a girl, but if it doesnt behave like one, people wonder even more... One has to pass entirely in that respect. femininity and masculinity aside, there is a core gender that is expressed by someone, when you know them, or interact more closely. if that doesnt match your apearance, nomatter how good you look, your not that man or woman you want to be socially. like a man or woman yes, but you wont be one in other peoples eyes. Its a fine line, and even if some people know, have that core femaleness, or maleness, and people will actually forget, or when they find out, not belive it... THATS passing. THATS BEING your target gender.
You paint everything as being black and white and that's just not reality. It's more like a bellcurve. With totally not passing on one extreme and total stealth on the other. But the vast majority of us fall somewhere in the middle. And that's okay because as long as you're somewhere within female norms, and that's a lot of territory, you'll be fine. Don't paint yourself into a corner thinking you have to be "totally passable" because you're setting yourself up for disappointment. Forget the stereotypes! Instead, be the best possible YOU. I went into this determined to do the best with what I've got and I've succeeded pretty well. It was a struggle at times battling stereotypes, but that's something natals deal with as well. Don't be your "target gender". Be YOU. :)
thats actually the truth... it IS black and white...
you either pass, or you dont. if you get read sometimes, or a lot, your still not passing. and thus, not living as a man or woman (whichever)
If people know, then your a transwoman, or transman to them, as respectfully as they treat you, you wont ever be just a man, or just a woman to them. They might get close at times, but they arnt the same.
Sorry to go bursting anyones bubble here, but the world is black and white. it is simple, and its not cute, or fluffy, or cuddly, its a nasty world of positives and negatives, black and white, yes or no... Hey, wed love the world to be different, but the sooner people wake up the better.
If you are trans, and dont pass all the time, you dont pass... if you are only taken for your true gender, you pass... it is that simple.
one can only be a member of thier true gender when they pass completely, socially, visually, in friendships and relationships. If you dont, then your living LIKE your true gender, not as it.
R :police:
Quote from: Rachael on December 19, 2007, 01:34:38 PM
If you are trans, and dont pass all the time, you dont pass... if you are only taken for your true gender, you pass... it is that simple.
one can only be a member of thier true gender when they pass completely, socially, visually, in friendships and relationships. If you dont, then your living LIKE your true gender, not as it.
To be honest, I go back and forth with this. Yes, getting read would break my heart. And yet, I suspect that my "need" to mimick a genetic female is at least partly coming from a fear that I'm not "real" somehow unless I do. A fear that I can't trust THEM to see ME unless they see a genetic woman.
But I dunno Rachael... those people out there in the
Real World... the ones who AREN'T obsessed with all this TS stuff... keep proving me wrong. They DO see "me." They really, really do. And it seems that "transition" isn't so much about creating a perfect replica body of a GG, but rather learning to TRUST these people, to get over myself and live MY life, rather than that of "a genetic woman," whatever the heck that is anyway.
Maybe I'm just different than most. I've often said that I'm not trans-sexual... I'm trans-personed. My dysphoria isn't that I wasn't female... it's that I wasn't Kate, that person I knew I was, who HAPPENS TO BE female. I'm not transitioning to be female... I'm transitioning to be me, to be Kate. And darn it if people don't seem to see Kate... regardless of if they know I was born male or not.
I'm TRYING to get over this "passing as my target gender" thing, and just focus on being ME, more and more, in every way possible. Maybe I'm delusional, I don't know, but it SEEMS to me that true peace and happiness lies therein... and not in treating "being female" like it's some role to perfect, to mimick convincingly.
~Kate~
Quote from: Rachael on December 19, 2007, 01:34:38 PM
thats actually the truth... it IS black and white...
If that was true then natal women wouldn't be clocked.
You have to be careful here. Are you being yourself or are you trying to live up to some unattainable stereotype? After living for other people my whole life that was something I recognized that I had to change. However, as I started to transition I sometimes felt the calling of the dark side (stereotypes). To fall into that trap would be to return to the days of living for others. You
must resist this temptation and stay true to yourself. Chasing stereotypes will only continue your dissatisfaction because almost none of us can ever look like runway models. Put down those fashion magazines and walk around the local mall. How many women out there look like those stereotypes? Not many, and that's reality. That's why I say "Be You".
Also, it seems that you believe that male and female spheres are mutally exclusive (when it comes to looks). Not so. You can best illustrate the variability in looks as a Venn diagram of two overlapping circles. Some men look feminine and some women look masculine. That overlap is what allows us to transition. Hormones (over time), presentation, mannerisms, voice and sometimes surgery (SRS, FFS, BAS) allow us to change our appearance to match our inner essence. The general public does not have our hang-ups about looks. They don't feel a pathological need to investigate everyones gender. If someone looks reasonably female (or male), that's what they are. I am convinced that the vast majority of us can successfully find happiness and blend back into society. But the key is to have realistic expectations and to have patience.
Maybe the real issue here is outlook. I'm an optimist. I can't help but be so given my experience. I never thought I would be where I am today. I once believed as you do. But HRT (and time), learning from experience (presentation, voice, mannerisms), self-acceptance and surgery brought me inner happiness. And that inner peace radiates out from me and is what gets me gendered correctly.
Make yourself happy
first and then the world will follow your lead.
you shouldnt... but then. this falls back to the other topics on this board about passing... its not about mimickary... its about being yourself, and if yourself is the target gender you present as, then people will just see that.... ofcourse, looking male or female sure helps :P
R :police:
Quote from: Kate on December 19, 2007, 03:38:19 PM
Quote from: Rachael on December 19, 2007, 01:34:38 PM
If you are trans, and dont pass all the time, you dont pass... if you are only taken for your true gender, you pass... it is that simple.
one can only be a member of thier true gender when they pass completely, socially, visually, in friendships and relationships. If you dont, then your living LIKE your true gender, not as it.
To be honest, I go back and forth with this. Yes, getting read would break my heart. And yet, I suspect that my "need" to mimick a genetic female is at least partly coming from a fear that I'm not "real" somehow unless I do. A fear that I can't trust THEM to see ME unless they see a genetic woman.
But I dunno Rachael... those people out there in the Real World... the ones who AREN'T obsessed with all this TS stuff... keep proving me wrong. They DO see "me." They really, really do. And it seems that "transition" isn't so much about creating a perfect replica body of a GG, but rather learning to TRUST these people, to get over myself and live MY life, rather than that of "a genetic woman," whatever the heck that is anyway.
Maybe I'm just different than most. I've often said that I'm not trans-sexual... I'm trans-personed. My dysphoria isn't that I wasn't female... it's that I wasn't Kate, that person I knew I was, who HAPPENS TO BE female. I'm not transitioning to be female... I'm transitioning to be me, to be Kate. And darn it if people don't seem to see Kate... regardless of if they know I was born male or not.
I'm TRYING to get over this "passing as my target gender" thing, and just focus on being ME, more and more, in every way possible. Maybe I'm delusional, I don't know, but it SEEMS to me that true peace and happiness lies therein... and not in treating "being female" like it's some role to perfect, to mimick convincingly.
~Kate~
YES! Those words all hit home for me.
Except my name is Sarah.
But aside from that.
I'm myself now, and I wasn't before. People feel the warmth and legitimacy from that, and they will give you love back. And not the paranoid "will they still like me if I don't pass today" kind of love. The kind of love that sticks with you and is something that can enrich your life.
Probably a question tertiary to the this topic is if you can live any kind of life trying to pass and be stealth. I don't understand how you can live any kind of life looking over your shoulder constantly. Fear is no life. The first time I stepped out the door as Sarah, that was a step away from the life of fear and worry. Coming out as trans is about deciding that you're through hiding behind lies and deciet and paranoia, and that you are ready to start living life as YOU, whatever that means for each person.
Am I living as my target gender? maybe, maybe not. According to some of these standards, how would I even really know.
But am I happy? Because I wasn't happy before. Am I happy now? YES. VERY much so.
And THAT's what living is about.
Stop the fashion show for a minute and ask yourself if your happy. If you're happy because of the change you've made, then that's all you need to know.
Quote from: Kate on December 19, 2007, 03:38:19 PM
Quote from: Rachael on December 19, 2007, 01:34:38 PM
If you are trans, and dont pass all the time, you dont pass... if you are only taken for your true gender, you pass... it is that simple.
one can only be a member of thier true gender when they pass completely, socially, visually, in friendships and relationships. If you dont, then your living LIKE your true gender, not as it.
To be honest, I go back and forth with this. Yes, getting read would break my heart. And yet, I suspect that my "need" to mimick a genetic female is at least partly coming from a fear that I'm not "real" somehow unless I do. A fear that I can't trust THEM to see ME unless they see a genetic woman.
But I dunno Rachael... those people out there in the Real World... the ones who AREN'T obsessed with all this TS stuff... keep proving me wrong. They DO see "me." They really, really do. And it seems that "transition" isn't so much about creating a perfect replica body of a GG, but rather learning to TRUST these people, to get over myself and live MY life, rather than that of "a genetic woman," whatever the heck that is anyway.
Maybe I'm just different than most. I've often said that I'm not trans-sexual... I'm trans-personed. My dysphoria isn't that I wasn't female... it's that I wasn't Kate, that person I knew I was, who HAPPENS TO BE female. I'm not transitioning to be female... I'm transitioning to be me, to be Kate. And darn it if people don't seem to see Kate... regardless of if they know I was born male or not.
I'm TRYING to get over this "passing as my target gender" thing, and just focus on being ME, more and more, in every way possible. Maybe I'm delusional, I don't know, but it SEEMS to me that true peace and happiness lies therein... and not in treating "being female" like it's some role to perfect, to mimick convincingly.
~Kate~
well, anne-girl, it'd be pretty darn impossible
not to see you as female even if you had a beard and overalls. you're just, well... a girl. i'm seriously wondering how you ever managed to live as a guy. it's like living as male hasn't touched you at all.
Those of us who are secure in who we are don't give our power away to what people may or may not think.
uhhh........
not...
quite...
following...
where ...
this ...
was ...
going...
would you like fries with that ma'am?
R
Quote from: Rachael on December 20, 2007, 06:35:32 PM
uhhh........
not...
quite...
following...
where ...
this ...
was ...
going...
would you like fries with that ma'am?
R
No but I will take one of them 10 cent root beers and you sure look cute in that get-up.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcache.viewimages.com%2Fxc%2F52630925.jpg%3Fv%3D1%26amp%3Bc%3DViewImages%26amp%3Bk%3D2%26amp%3Bd%3D17A4AD9FDB9CF1939847EC77F5F8D1CE246B836C7FFF9BBBA40A659CEC4C8CB6&hash=0dc72dfc039dccaf3fdbbf973bbdd8bd307cf095)
Much as I would like to fully embrace the mind-over-matter approach. I think Rach was absolutely spot-on up there. When she said there's a difference when people 'know' and when they don't.
Now maybe that used to just be my own stuff showing up, but I really, honestly doubt it. There is a difference.
Quote from: Nichole W. on December 21, 2007, 12:44:05 AM
Much as I would like to fully embrace the mind-over-matter approach. I think Rach was absolutely spot-on up there. When she said there's a difference when people 'know' and when they don't.
You are correct, BUT we aren't talking about people who "know", we're talking about how the general public sees you. It's a big difference between "knowing" and suspecting something out of the ordinary. And usually people are too busy with their own life and problems to really investigate further.
The vast majority of us can lead a relatively assimilated life and some stealth (if that's what they want). I think the number who are truly never able to do so are much fewer than most believe.
Okay, I see that point. But, people don't know. I spoz I should have said that if you invite scrutiny by your own attitude as you move through your day-to-day then people will notice. In fact they'll look four or five times and maybe gape and point as well. We always seem to be attracted to what we perceive as weakness or uncomfortableness. Kinda makes us feel less conspicuous I spoz, all of us, not just TSes, if someone else is more conspicuous.
If you fall within a reasonable range and learn to add some confidence to your walk and your talk, rather than always obsessing about how much you should look, sound or move like "a real woman" then you become for others, "a real woman." For the general public. And I have found that same applies in a more personal life.
For your personal friends, etc, same applies, only there you MUST curb the desire to tell. Never tell. People are allowed to think or suspect or wonder all they wish, and they will no matter what I do. So yes, again as Rach said, be yourself. And keep your mouth shut when it comes to queries.
As for stealth. My guess is that if someone is really engrossed enough to discover a few small items about me and spend $69.95 for a search, they can come up with enough evidence anymore to 'out' me. Question is, who do I know who has enough passion for that to do so? I really can't think of anyone. But, de facto stealth and "true" stealth are two different things. The first is called everyday life and the second is impossible given the nature of internet and security searches, etc.
Nichole
not really... if you know how, you can leave the face of the planet. and return someone else entirely with no trans facts at all ;)
but we wont go there...
also, if your giving someone reason to check your history to find out if your trans, do you pass that well to start with? lol
R :police:
I have often thought about moving somewhere and starting a new life in "deep stealth" I just moved to the Bay Area and from what I hear I picked the wrong place to do that (It wasn't my intention anyway) I know some Asian girls who are absolutely drop dead gorgeous and seemingly unreadable who tell me that they get read occasionally but, myself, I just live my life as a woman and don't worry about this BS (obsession about passing) anymore.
Quote from: Rachael on December 22, 2007, 08:50:46 AM
not really... if you know how, you can leave the face of the planet. and return someone else entirely with no trans facts at all ;)
but we wont go there...
also, if your giving someone reason to check your history to find out if your trans, do you pass that well to start with? lol
R :police:
It doesn't require that much, just someone with more time on their hands and money than a life. There are many like that. Prolly even a few on BBs.
As for 'stealth' get your education and apply for employment with a multi-national, MI-5 or MI-6, any employment in UK that requires a background check: in USA that would include day-care center, a bank, mental hospitals, police, fire department, government employments, on and on.
Leaving the planet and returning LOL prolly wouldn't work here either. Our little building demolitions back in 2001 have pretty much placed an end to stealth as it used to be known in USA. The new national id card will fix it so even McDonald's will know soon.
That leaves the onus on me, or you, to live lives with the realities of ueber-security (the thought that I will never die or even be injured as a constitutional right) embracing us all. Even when people know, they don't always remember they know with the right attitude and 'presentation.' So, its all pretty much up to the individual to make their lives work.
O, you might get an under-the-table employment running illegals into the country or be a drugs dealer without the security vet, but most reasonably good employments will out you. Soon, I imagine, even the poor ones will.
N~
QuoteEven when people know, they don't always remember they know with the right attitude and 'presentation.' So, its all pretty much up to the individual to make their lives work.
Agreed!
i wasnt talking about vetting... i was talking about how easy it is to get a new clean identity. :P
R :police:
Quote from: Ashley Michelle on December 22, 2007, 09:24:25 AM
Quote from: Nichole W. on December 22, 2007, 09:14:22 AM
Quote from: Rachael on December 22, 2007, 08:50:46 AM
not really... if you know how, you can leave the face of the planet. and return someone else entirely with no trans facts at all ;)
but we wont go there...
also, if your giving someone reason to check your history to find out if your trans, do you pass that well to start with? lol
R :police:
It doesn't require that much, just someone with more time on their hands and money than a life. There are many like that. Prolly even a few on BBs.
As for 'stealth' get your education and apply for employment with a multi-national, MI-5 or MI-6, any employment in UK that requires a background check: in USA that would include day-care center, a bank, mental hospitals, police, fire department, government employments, on and on.
Leaving the planet and returning LOL prolly wouldn't work here either. Our little building demolitions back in 2001 have pretty much placed an end to stealth as it used to be known in USA. The new national id card will fix it so even McDonald's will know soon.
That leaves the onus on me, or you, to live lives with the realities of ueber-security (the thought that I will never die or even be injured as a constitutional right) embracing us all. Even when people know, they don't always remember they know with the right attitude and 'presentation.' So, its all pretty much up to the individual to make their lives work.
O, you might get an under-the-table employment running illegals into the country or be a drugs dealer without the security vet, but most reasonably good employments will out you. Soon, I imagine, even the poor ones will.
N~
which is all the more reason for an inclusive enda.
or, finding a job in one of the 13 states and many individual cities that currently have enda-like protections. as i begin to start my job search in anticipation of finishing law school next year, that is extremely high on my list
~ashley~
Yeah, much to be liked about those 13 states. The feds may even follow suit in another 20 years. Let's see 8 of ClintonII or Obama ... O my, where do I find the remaining 12!!!?
I live 200 yards from such a state and am in grad school there. Of course, no legal challenges yet on the employment matter and the recent "gay marriage" approval has shown some problems with employments disregarding things like "spousal" medical coverages, etc.
Laws tend to be guidelines more than demands, Ash. They're nice to have in place, but the enforcement and the disincentives to break the darned things are those factors that never get written into laws. I am consistently amazed at Americans who seem to think that "passing a law" solves the problem.
I remember, vaguely, I was 12, the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was passed and how outraged some people were at one of our Senators for pushing its passage. (I grew up in a Border State and segregation was 'the law.')
My first experience of a black child in my high school was two years later, when i was a freshman. His family had lived three miles from me for forty years. He bused every day of his life till he was in 10th grade to a school 20 miles away because he had to "be with his kind."
Things do change, as do attitudes, but laws seldom make sea-changes. They do, however, give you grounds for some legal protections that will be, often, enforced after-the-fact provided you have the wherewithal to "outlast" the corporation or people on the other side.
I don't mean this to sound hopeless, it isn't hopeless and the changes that have been made and seem to be, slowly, on the way are good ones and in time they will matter a lot. I just suspect that black people in USA who were 20 in 1964 waited quite some time to see 'change' really come. I know they did.
Having grown up in the "South" and lived as well in the "Deep South," Texas, Washington and California, I find it strange living here in the "Northeast" that I am now living in the most racially segregated places in USA that I have ever lived in. *shrug*
I think it helps the change when those who think they don't need to change discover that they do. I expect a lot of Black, Hispanic and Chinese, Korean, Japanese, Vietnamese, Laotian and Indian people living up this way might just agree with me.
N~
Posted on: December 22, 2007, 10:43:54 AM
Quote from: Rachael on December 22, 2007, 09:28:17 AM
i wasnt talking about vetting... i was talking about how easy it is to get a new clean identity. :P
R :police:
"You say po-tay-ta I say po-taa-ta. Let's call the whole thing off." :D
Hugs,
Nichole
actually no, laws arnt 'guidelines'
thier follow them, or get b& from society....
most transpeople need to be extra careful, as they may end up getting bummed in the showers in a mens prison (for m2f women)
R :police:
Quote from: Rachael on December 22, 2007, 04:12:26 PM
actually no, laws arnt 'guidelines'
thier follow them, or get b& from society....
most transpeople need to be extra careful, as they may end up getting bummed in the showers in a mens prison (for m2f women)
R :police:
Laws are always guidelines if the enforcers don't enforce them, Rach. That's why in many places you could be killed and no one would even investigate. Why you could be raped and people would still say, "she got what she asked for." Actually those people would never use the correct gender-designation for you.
I am glad you haven't had to face that yet. It's there. You're merely lucky and have been fortunate enough in social-class, race or upbringing to not see the difference.
Like I said before: you say pa-tay-ta. Well enough. I hope your education isn't a rough one.
Hugs,
N~
i wont say i wont experience transphobia... but tbh, as im stealth now, i doubt its gonna come any time soon *knocks on wood*
R :police:
I don't think it can be possible. Just look around. Society expects certain actions, looks and attitudes from all of us. Our society demands certain behavor in all of us. The price of not conforming to some of these expectations is just too high for most folks. Sorry but I'm just very pragmatic.
Hi Ell you can join me under my rock. No body will know where we are except after dark they will see two little pairs of eyes blinking under the rock
Cindy
there will be no hiding. The sunshine is ours as much as it is anybody else's
Quote from: Rachael on December 22, 2007, 05:32:13 PM
i wont say i wont experience transphobia... but tbh, as im stealth now, i doubt its gonna come any time soon *knocks on wood*
R :police:
Going from starting RLE to Stealth in nine months. I think you made the Guiness. :) Congrats! Love your T-shirt too, my best friend's x-husband is the guitar player in Metallica. Too bad she was forced to sign up a pre-nup, otherwise she'd be wealthy.
So take a genetic female, and force her to wear a I WAS BORN A MALE t-shirt the rest of her life... so she can no longer "pass."
Will she never REALLY be living as a woman from then on? Is she only an AS IF woman now?
~Kate~
Quote from: Nichole W. on December 22, 2007, 07:57:58 AMIf you fall within a reasonable range and learn to add some confidence to your walk and your talk, rather than always obsessing about how much you should look, sound or move like "a real woman" then you become for others, "a real woman." For the general public. And I have found that same applies in a more personal life.
This is quite true! It has recently come true for me. It took a long hard climb for me to reach this, but I'm so glad that suffering is past. Don't despair when it looks difficult at first. It gets better in the way that Nichole described.
QuoteFor your personal friends, etc, same applies, only there you MUST curb the desire to tell. Never tell. People are allowed to think or suspect or wonder all they wish, and they will no matter what I do. So yes, again as Rach said, be yourself. And keep your mouth shut when it comes to queries.
LOL, this past summer is when I first got hit in the face with the fact that I was doing better than I thought I was. I made a new friend, and after I mentioned being trans to her, she told me she had not known until I said it. Before then I'd gotten used to it being obvious. Now I'm getting used to it actually working for me. I don't know if it was the hormones, or practice, or the stars in alignment, or my prayers being heard by divine providence, but by the time autumn arrived I finally was ready for prime time. Now I don't even need to think about it, let alone talk about it. I just be myself.
Quote from: Kate on December 22, 2007, 11:19:30 PM
So take a genetic female, and force her to wear a I WAS BORN A MALE t-shirt the rest of her life... so she can no longer "pass."
Will she never REALLY be living as a woman from then on? Is she only an AS IF woman now?
~Kate~
tbh, i dont think people would believe it, she would still pass as female, poeple would think it a joke... she will be living as a woman, because she IS... NOBODY will take a teeshirt seriously unless the rest of her backs it up...
that scenario failz....
Veronica: its more like 11 now... and i sort of accidentally went stealth... ive just not told anyone in months.... Ive not done RLE yet... ive not even seen a therapist...
R :police:
Oh you just have your own definition of stealth.
stealth to me = nobody thinks or sees anything but a girl... which they do. a few friends know, my coursemates, teachers, and boss and staff at work dont know... thats as good as i get right now...
R :police:
As I said, you have your own definition of stealth.
stealth isnt something that you have to do in a certain way...
people not knowing, is people not knowing. whichever way you look at it.
stealth doesnt require a certain process before that, or a checklist to be completed before you can.
if your m2f, and nobody can see anything but a girl, your legally you, i dont see what CANT be stealth?
R :police:
Quote from: Rachael on December 23, 2007, 07:28:09 AM
Quote from: Kate on December 22, 2007, 11:19:30 PM
So take a genetic female, and force her to wear a I WAS BORN A MALE t-shirt the rest of her life... so she can no longer "pass."
Will she never REALLY be living as a woman from then on? Is she only an AS IF woman now?
~Kate~
tbh, i dont think people would believe it, she would still pass as female, poeple would think it a joke... she will be living as a woman, because she IS... NOBODY will take a teeshirt seriously unless the rest of her backs it up...
that scenario failz....
Veronica: its more like 11 now... and i sort of accidentally went stealth... ive just not told anyone in months.... Ive not done RLE yet... ive not even seen a therapist...
R :police:
You are absolutely right Rachael......a t shirt means nothing....it's what's seen physically.....and the T shirt comment would be seen as a bad joke......that would also be seen as a back joke on a passable TS....who would be percieved a a genetic female pretending to be TS...
"You say po-tay-ta I say po-taa-ta. and they say tommytoes in Tennessee.
Cindy
Quote from: cindybc on December 24, 2007, 05:54:03 PM
"You say po-tay-ta I say po-taa-ta. and they say tommytoes in Tennessee.
Cindy
*grin* those are the lil tiny ones, Cindy!! We call 'em grape tomatoes up this way.
Nichole
Quote from: Nichole W. on December 24, 2007, 06:04:55 PM
Quote from: cindybc on December 24, 2007, 05:54:03 PM
"You say po-tay-ta I say po-taa-ta. and they say tommytoes in Tennessee.
Cindy
*grin* those are the lil tiny ones, Cindy!! We call 'em grape tomatoes up this way.
Nichole
They're called cherry tomatoes here. :)
y2g
It's very possible..........
The (what I term as "normal" people LMAO) i have encounter take you for what you carrrier yourself has......
If you act like a woman and carry yourself as such then you are preceived as just that even with a full beard and a three piece business suit
and lets not forget even the most "Passable" of us DO NOT Pass 100% of the time.
(remember theres always someone who knew you before transitioning)
Personality and attitude are my best friends when it comes to dealing with people out there. After all how can someone think of giving you a hard time if their to busy laughing their backside off.
Cindy
Quote from: Chynna on December 24, 2007, 06:11:25 PM
It's very possible..........
The (what I term as "normal" people LMAO) i have encounter take you for what you carrrier yourself has......
If you act like a woman and carry yourself as such then you are preceived as just that even with a full beard and a three piece business suit
Fail... if a man in a business suit and beard acts like a woman, he looks gay to society. NOT like a woman by any stretch... even if he speaks and behaves like one.
Quote
and lets not forget even the most "Passable" of us DO NOT Pass 100% of the time.
(remember theres always someone who knew you before transitioning)
again, fail
the most passable do pass 100% of the time, when you look, FEMALE, you look female...
people who used to know you means nothing, ive walked past, talked to, people i used to know, and who would love to mock me for it, but they have stared into my eyes, and not seen me... maybe others havent changed a lot, but i look so different nobody recognises me... and i KNOW its the case for others...
if you dont pass, then you dont pass 100%...
i guess it helps if you were a depressed social recluse with no friends eh?
R :police:
Hi Rachael. I don't think I pass so well at least not without someone at least noticing something different or odd about my looks. But I still persist that attitude and personality is what done it for me. As for anyone remembering me from 4 years ago they never expressed it to me personally.
If I went back there now after 8 years before I started full time, I have again changed enough they may not even remember who the kid on the block was before transition. All here in Vancouver referred to me in the right pronouns, no problems there.
But It took me a while to get accustomed to the energy of the people here. I had a really hard time to even leave the apartment and get acclimatised to peoples energy out there. All I wanted to do was crawl into a mouse hole and pull the hole in after me.
Passing I don't believe it's so much physical looks as much as it was personality and attitude. It all depended allot on how I projected myself to what I desire people to see me as. I dealt with a lot of people in one day when I was a social worker. Where I had lots of time to learn how to project to people what I wanted people to see and not even be aware of it. It is called (projected illusion) gee I hope you all understand what I am saying. I know there are some about this board that know.
Merry Christmas
Happy Holidays
Cindy
Cindy
Quote from: Rachael on December 25, 2007, 04:26:06 AMagain, fail
the most passable do pass 100% of the time, when you look, FEMALE, you look female...
people who used to know you means nothing, ive walked past, talked to, people i used to know, and who would love to mock me for it, but they have stared into my eyes, and not seen me... maybe others havent changed a lot, but i look so different nobody recognises me... and i KNOW its the case for others...
if you dont pass, then you dont pass 100%...
i guess it helps if you were a depressed social recluse with no friends eh?
This is a myth that needs to die. Rachel, come here so I can x-ray you and expose you for being assigned male at birth. Sorry for the dramataic example, but nobody passes 100%. And with todays databases (not to mention famiyt & friends) nobody is in total stealth either. They are both myths. Absolutionist answers to our complex situations don't work.
One doesn't have to pass "100%" to have a full life. The world is not black and white. It is filled with greys.
I would advise people to do the best they can with what they've got. Passability (I prefer the term blending) is more like a Bell curve. The farther under the curve the better. But remember this: Even natal women can and do get clocked. If the world was so black and white that wouldn't happen.
Absolute answers (100% or bust) aren't reality based and only further fan the flames of fear and paranoia. Most can and do blend.
Quote from: Marlene on December 25, 2007, 08:22:28 AM
Quote from: Rachael on December 25, 2007, 04:26:06 AMagain, fail
the most passable do pass 100% of the time, when you look, FEMALE, you look female...
people who used to know you means nothing, ive walked past, talked to, people i used to know, and who would love to mock me for it, but they have stared into my eyes, and not seen me... maybe others havent changed a lot, but i look so different nobody recognises me... and i KNOW its the case for others...
if you dont pass, then you dont pass 100%...
i guess it helps if you were a depressed social recluse with no friends eh?
This is a myth that needs to die. Rachel, come here so I can x-ray you and expose you for being assigned male at birth. Sorry for the dramataic example, but nobody passes 100%. And with todays databases (not to mention famiyt & friends) nobody is in total stealth either. They are both myths. Absolutionist answers to our complex situations don't work.
One doesn't have to pass "100%" to have a full life. The world is not black and white. It is filled with greys.
I would advise people to do the best they can with what they've got. Passability (I prefer the term blending) is more like a Bell curve. The farther under the curve the better. But remember this: Even natal women can and do get clocked. If the world was so black and white that wouldn't happen.
Absolute answers (100% or bust) aren't reality based and only further fan the flames of fear and paranoia. Most can and do blend.
I agree, Marlene. Well said. I would only remind us each one that the world is not only filled with greys, but it is filled with
COLORS!!! The world is vast and diverse and filled with wonders as well. We can, and should, each be one of those. To lead a full life is to simply pass and thrive as oneself. Whomever that person is.
I was always under the impression that for many, if not most, the basic goal is to be 100% themselves and to find some peace in that.
The beauty, or ugly or mediocre contests are simply contests and bear little or even NO resemblance to our day-to-day lives. It is there we thrive.
*smile* My $0.02, cheap at the price!!!
May each of us find our best possible and entire selves, now and in the coming year.
Hugs to all, and Merry Christmas,
Nichole
Some do pass 100% due to the threshold effect,
if you're close enough middle ground on all parameters for all observers.
The problem is that often a TS will think they're actually within this threshold
where there is no doubt, when others disagree. If others disagree, well
you're not passing 100%.
The mythical passsing 100% should leave no doubt NO MATTER WHO LOOKS AT THE PERSON!
This is indeed very very rare. I'd say that 99% of TS don't reach this level including me.
If I go to Japan, well I KNOW my passability will be shot to hell!!!
Because of height differential and the fact that when you skip culture,
what's considered female in physionomy or behavior will be so different.
This is an extreme case, but even in ONE big city, there are many different
public and I know that its with recent immigrants from some country
that I get read much more frequently (Instead of happening 1%, goes up to 5%!).
People of the same background and physionomy are least likely to read you, because
that's where you'll be closer to the group average for women. When people
say they pass 100%, its usually according to this frame of reference
(and this one is INDEED VERY POSSIBLE), since its very hard for me, or anyone,
to have the other point of reference and know for sure what people from
that other point of view think at all time.
marlene:feel free, that wont work, sorry to pee on your bonfire :P but i actually doubt in my case, that would do much good... due to my problems, i dont know if that would show anything but how freakish i am under the skin...
If any TS person outed me out of jelousy, or spite, i would destroy thier life, thats no idle warning. (probably helps that i dont socialise with ts people, or interact with any irl.)
passing 100% IS possible, if you fit the parameteres as Kiera says, most ts's yeah, but whats 1%? how many thousand CAN?
R >:D
Quote from: Nichole W. on December 25, 2007, 08:35:33 AMI agree, Marlene. Well said. I would only remind us each one that the world is not only filled with greys, but it is filled with COLORS!!!
The world is vast and diverse and filled with wonders as well. We can, and should, each be one of those. To lead a full life is to simply pass and thrive as oneself. Whomever that person is.
I was always under the impression that for many, if not most, the basic goal is to be 100% themselves and to find some peace in that.
The beauty, or ugly or mediocre contests are simply contests and bear little or even NO resemblance to our day-to-day lives. It is there we thrive.
*smile* My $0.02, cheap at the price!!!
May each of us find our best possible and entire selves, now and in the coming year.
Hugs to all, and Merry Christmas,
Nichole
Thank you Nicole. I knew as soon as I wrote that that "colors" would've been better, but I wanted to stay within the black/white analogy thing. I also agree 100% should only be a goal of sorts and the real goal is to be the best possible *you*.
I think obsessing over "100%" is just plain counterproductive, not to mention arrogant. I don't claim to pass "100%" and to tell you the truth I don't care. I know I've been pretty lucky, but I don't dwell on what others think too much. I'm happy, I have the life I've always wanted and that's all that counts.
Rachel: I'd love to stick around and debate you, but I can't. My medical leave is up today and I have to go back to work later. Yeah I have to work on Christmas. It's all part of being a hospital worker. So it's back to my real life, the one you claim doesn't exist.
Don't let others tell you what your future, or even the prospects of your future, are. Break the cycle of pain and fear! Get yourself fixed! Then, a couple years from now, you'll look back and see those people for the prophets of doom they are and laugh. And you'll be filled with a self-confidence, and self-esteem, from conquering your own fears and becoming whole in mind, body and spirit. You can make your dereams come true!
See you in the real world.......
i claimed that when? lulz
R >:D
Quote from: cindybc on December 25, 2007, 07:37:36 AMWhere I had lots of time to learn how to project to people what I wanted people to see and not even be aware of it. It is called (projected illusion) gee I hope you all understand what I am saying. I know there are some about this board that know.
I think the old-fashioned witchy name for that is "glamour." Not in the modern fashion magazine sense, but the old-fashioned witchcraft sense.
Posted on: December 25, 2007, 01:44:06 PM
Quote from: Marlene on December 25, 2007, 08:22:28 AMAbsolutist answers to our complex situations don't work.
One doesn't have to pass "100%" to have a full life. The world is not black and white. It is filled with greys.
May I just underline this--Marlene, you bring much-needed wisdom and maturity to this discussion. I could not agree with you more.
Human perception of gender is a complex sort of pattern recognition. Human minds form patterns upon raw perceptions, patterns which are then taken as "real." Nobody faces life with just raw perceptions, we all use our pattern-forming faculty to interface with the world. On the surface, gender perception is usually taken to be a simplistic binary while underlying it are many complex factors that get unconsciously added and summarized into a conscious binary output.
Our goal is to present enough of those factors in our favor, so that our desired gender becomes locked into the perceptions of others. This is what Keira referred to as the "threshold effect." Less-than-perfect physical features can be fudged because of the wide range of overlap between male and female phenotypes. As Marlene noted, "blending" is key. I see "blending" as making use of gender-coded ethology (patterns of behavior) to your benefit. I also feel that "vibes" are very important. The most important vibe of all is confidence... being comfortable with yourself... a vibe of naturalness and security in your comportment.
So if it seems hard at first, don't despair. Keep improving your output, and you can do it.
Posted on: December 25, 2007, 02:00:52 PM
Quote from: Marlene on December 25, 2007, 11:46:37 AMI think obsessing over "100%" is just plain counterproductive, not to mention arrogant.
Just wondering, could it be a sign of self-hatred... internalized transphobia? It's wracked with fear and comes across as deeply insecure. I find that mindset unhelpful, because the only thing that worked for me was to deal with my fears until I'd mastered them and gotten over them. For that I needed to love and accept myself from within.
Hi Marlene
I like your terminology blending.
Merry Christmas
Happy Holidays
Cindy
Posted on: December 25, 2007, 02:14:29 PM
Thank you Hypatia
Fore once someone knows what I am talking about.
Cindy from the purple planet Addar. ;D
Quote from: Rebis on December 22, 2007, 11:01:24 PM
there will be no hiding. The sunshine is ours as much as it is anybody else's
:)
Oh Rebis, I wish that to be so true for all of us. :'(
Can one
live as their target gender without passing?
My answer is no.
I hope everyone had a Happy Christmas.
buttercup :)
Hi Hypatia, I love your posting.
QuoteThe most important vibe of all is confidence... being comfortable with yourself... a vibe of naturalness and security in your comportment.
((((Bingo!!)))) we have a three cornered bingo. Again that can be accomplished by personality and character. And yes then the other three horsemen fall into place, Projecting, vibes, then blending can be achieved.
Cindy
We all will not look like supermodels.
For the long term I think you need to have not too many disappointing encounters in this regard, otherwise it would be frustrating. Unless one has a thick skin and a high tolerance level.
Best to all of us,
Chrissy
I think I could pass with body, it's just the face and my body hair I am worried about.
The voice is problematic for many.
This takes a lot of work and still not be the way you want it to be.
Sigh.
Chrissy
Wishing all many pleasant experiences as you transition.
This can be quite liberating, letting your true self become reality.
It is not an easy journey though for many of us.
Hugs,
Chrissy