If you are pre-op but presenting in your preferred gender you want to be able to use the appropriate bathroom.
But say you're non-trans person and know a pre-op trans person is using the same bathroom as you and you are bothered by the fact you have different genitals.
You are a GG and don't want a penis in the bathroom. Or you are a GM and don't want a vagina in the bathroom.
Who's rights come first?
I know this can be an explosive subject but both sides have merit. I respect both sides and find it hard to take sides.
Julie
(For the record, when I was at work and pre-op, I used a remote bathroom almost no women in the office used. I felt uncomfortable using the office bathrooms.)
I've recently been trying to look up laws for this, and I may just be stupid, but I cannot find information via google or our wiki.
When I saw my therapist, she told me that I should stop using the mens' room with the way I look because it isn't safe. I haven't had anything except guys walk in, walk out, check the door, walk in, walk out, check the door again, then go about their business. I've gotten to the point where I just say 'Right one' when they start to leave.
I saw something about a 'rule of least astonishment' where employers had to allow pre-ops to use their presentation-gender's restroom because wearing a skirt in the mens' room or seeing a man in the ladies' room is more socially astonishing. But it's impossible to find concrete information.
I've never used the ladies' room since I was a child with my mother, and I don't feel comfortable doing it, at the moment, without a carry letter.
I think if you are really presenting and passable in both your appearance and communication skills, then it should be allowed in public RR. In private RR (such as place of employment), I agree with least astonishment.
A majority group should never be allowed to dictate the rights of a minority group.
Well, here is my opinion on things, as a gg.
If someone walks into the bathroom who looks like, or is presenting as female, I'm perfectly comfortable. It's not the genitals that bother me really, it's the presentation. As long as you're somewhere on some kind of female spectrum, I'm not uncomfortable.
However, one time I was using a gender neutral bathroom with stalls, and a man walked in and used the stall next to me. [I knew it was a man because I heard him speaking as he walked in, and then I saw his sneakers and the bottom of his pants and he peed standing up.] I felt very uncomfortable. And I actually thought about why I felt so uncomfortable, as I was sitting there [I waited for him to leave because it would have been really awkward to wash my hands next to him. I didn't know if he even knew I was there.]. It wasn't something I would have expected to bother me so much.
I came to the conclusion that it was the fact that I was not used to being in that situation and it made me feel, instinctively, a little unsafe. Women are very vulnerable in public bathrooms. "Don't go to the bathroom by yourself because a creepster might hit you over the head and rape you or peek under the door at you." It's pounded into our heads so we can be a little paranoid. But I didn't get upset because it was a gender neutral bathroom. I had to suck it up, there was nothing I had the right to even complain about.
Anyway, I feel like women, any women, have the simple right to use the bathroom. When it comes to safety, I think whoever is in the most danger has the most rights- as in, real danger trumps mere personal discomfort. In most situations, a transwoman would be in the real danger- if she was forced to use the men's bathroom, all hell would break loose. It wouldn't be 'discomfort,' it would be the risk of bodily harm and the ruin of a reputation. On the other hand, any discomfort a gg might feel at having a transwoman use their bathroom would only be perceived danger, not real danger. So the gg would have to suck it up. I would tell her, "this person is a woman, therefore she will use the woman's bathroom. If you don't like it, it's your choice to find a different bathroom to use, but not your right to kick her out."
Those are my thoughts on the matter. :)
When I was in the process of setting up my transition at work, I was told in no uncertain terms that when I was presenting as female, I was to use the women room.
I can understand the mindset. I would not want a male in the restroom with me. But as a transwoman in transition, I should not be single out because of my present genitals. I am still a woman, through and through.
If you look like a duck, quack like a duck, then you're a duck. A guy in a dress that makes no attempt to present as female is still more likely to be hurt in the mens room. And he would not be in the ladies for anything other than doing his business. I would be more afraid of a man taking a child into the men's room, especially if the child did not wish to go. That would be suspicious to me.
Janet
This isn't that hard. One simply uses the bathroom that matches their gender presentation.
That being said, if one is presenting as a female, and they have a deep voice, then prudence would demand that they did not talk while in there.
Mutual respect is a great equalizer.
It makes absolutely no difference what the shape of my genitals are. That is my business and no one else's.
Women's bathroom all have private stalls. There is no reason for anyone to "see" ones genitals.
Similarly in men's bathrooms it would be prudent for FtMs to use the private stalls and not the urinals.
I'm a gg and I'm happy to share my bathroom space with anyone who genuinely identifies as female (or as not-male).
Just to add the obvious:
Anybody using a women's room should use it like a woman.
That means sitting and behaving yourself no matter what your genitals.
No, I wasn't trying to be redundant, Matilda got her post in a minute before I did while I was still typing!
Many of the women I work with knew me before, and I was worried that there would be some friction if we met in the restroom. But my fears were unfounded as I have seen most of them in there from time to time and have spoken with them in the course of business. Just a couple of girls having girl talk in the bano.
Janet
Quote from: Mister on June 08, 2009, 06:35:18 PM
A majority group should never be allowed to dictate the rights of a minority group.
Agreed.
Quote from: minniemouse on June 08, 2009, 07:03:59 PM
I'm a gg and I'm happy to share my bathroom space with anyone who genuinely identifies as female (or as not-male).
Here here! Thank you. ;D
I actually fought for gender-neutral restrooms while in college, but unfortunately it didn't get enacted. I have been using the ladies room without any problems since I went full-time two years ago. If you're presenting as female, use the ladies room. It's just common sense, and by no means are TG/TS women going into the ladies room for any other purpose than to do their business.
Even if she doesn't pass that well, if she looks female, and there are no neutral bathrooms nearby, then she should use the ladies room for safety reasons. But smile, and act like a lady, and everything will be fine.
The management prides itself on the cleanliness of these facilities. Gentleman please stand closer to the urinal, it's smaller than you think. Ladies please remain seated throughout the entire performance.
So, peeing in the sink is out of the question? Old Veterans Stadium routine in Philly, good riddance.
Most of what I have read here makes perfect sense.
A majority group should never be allowed to dictate the rights of a minority group.
Perhaps, but the reverse sucks even more when you really think about it. And we have a lot of words for it, none of them good. But start with oligarchy.
The American solution, at any rate, such as it is - is thus: Majority rule, minority rights. However, what is a right vs. what is a privilege is always debatable.
To be honest with you- I don't like ANYONE in the bathroom. Male or female.
I wish people would invent personal bathrooms because its uncomfortable to have gender with you.
Yeah, when I have a choice I always pick the unisex 'family friendly' restroom.
...Okay, since no one has mentioned the legality of it, I'll flat out ask again: What are the laws regarding this? I must be slow, because I am having absolutely 0 luck finding information. What is legal, what isn't? Federally? Do some states have laws?
No federal law. Fifty states have fifty differing laws, with local laws saying other things in some places. SO.... no solid answer.
I think gendered bathrooms are kind of silly. Ultimately I'd hope that we as humans could learn to all pee together.
personally i try to find a single or one of the "changin room" restrooms.
hi Julie Marie
To me, He/she who NEEDS to go, that's who's rights come first.
If you gotta go you gotta go.
If you start telling ppl they can't "go" here or there or everywhere, you'll end up with pee on the floor.
In Ontario Canada, as far as I know, there are no bathroom laws save for one. The only bathroom law I know of is that it is illegal to refuse to allow someone to use the washroom. Meaning, if you ask to use the washroom anywhere in ontario and someone says "Employees only" or "I'm sorry we don't have one" or "You have to buy something first", which they do say, it is your right to tell them "Show me the way to the bathroom, before I wet myself, or I will sue the pants off you and your company." Generally speaking "Women's and Men's" washrooms are a simple matter of courtesy, there is no legal obligation on which you have to enter presenting or not. That said, it's probably better to go in which ever one your presenting as, but either way no one has the right to kick you out.
Personally, at work (if and when I come out, unless I decide to just get a new job at that point) it won't matter for me as we have a singular unisex bathroom. Though one of the male employees never shuts or locks the door, that bothers me now even being still "male" *shudder*
Also as for what I said about the Ontario law about bathrooms, anyone visiting Niagara Falls please feel free to use this to your advantage, as I know at least Burger King on Cliffton Hill has a sign stating "Washrooms are for customers only, or you will have to pay $1 to use them" even if you see a sign like this, feel free to go in and use them without paying anyone anything as this IS Illegal. Furthermore though some stores state "We cannot accept any bills over $50.00" this is also illegal and feel free to ignore it.
Well most places in the US don't have a bathroom law per se, people are arrested under various public indecency, creating a disturbance/nuisance, disturbing the peace statutes.
One person told me an interesting spin on this topic and I think it has more to do with safety than being different(trans).
A man dressed as a woman went into the woman's bathroom waited, raped a woman and then left still dressed as a woman. Was this person a MTF? NO! Just a pervert who used an opportunity to his own advantage. Do these sick people ruin it for all MTF's using a woman's room who might have non-womanly parts? Yes! Is it fair? No! That is the reality of the way life is right now.
My only personal thought on this subject is that I am a woman and have used the men's room dressed as a women several times so I guess I owe them (men) an apology???
It's all well and good to say "use what you present as", but an FTM who doesn't pass 100% may not have the best of luck with that.
"If you've got nothing to swing, then you can't be with Bing!" - Kryten, Red Dwarf.
Ok, in a perfect world there would be an "other" room, and people would be more understanding - but this is reality and I'd prefer not to get punched. I don't use public loos, which is possible if you plan your fluid intake accordingly.
Men nod in greeting, women smile.
I grew up with four sisters. I heard both of my parents, my mother especially, warn my sisters time and time again to be careful in the presence of men. As TamTam said, women are very vulnerable in public bathrooms, and I wholly agree.
Every woman has right to ensure her safety. The concept of a penis as a weapon may seem a bit far fetched but if you consider the motive of a rapist is to find a vagina to stick his penis in then it doesn't seem so far fetched. I know women who will say outright they don't feel safe when they know a penis is in their bathroom.
Men are typically stronger than woman and can usually overpower them. I fully understand any fear a woman might have of that happening. I've been full time over a year and post-op a few months and even I feel a bit uncomfortable when I know there's a man in the restroom. Maybe it's my mom's voice in my head, I don't know, but I do know when I feel uncomfortable.
If we lived in a world where everyone was kind and thoughtful and no one posed a threat to anyone else this would be a no-brainer. But we don't.
Julie
Quote from: Venus on June 09, 2009, 09:50:10 AM
One person told me an interesting spin on this topic and I think it has more to do with safety than being different(trans).
A man dressed as a woman went into the woman's bathroom waited, raped a woman and then left still dressed as a woman. ...
This is the right wing crap used to scare most people into denying basic rights to those of us who are different. As far as I know, there are no documented cases of such abusive behaviour. There might be one or two out there.
When it comes to rest rooms.... I don't care who is next to me in the next stall.... I'm embarrassed.
But what is this thing that we have about separate bathrooms anyway? It is purely social. Should'nt the stalls provide enough minimal privacy to protect from peepers? Here in CA, a man can accompany a disabled woman into the women's rest room. OMG! It's the respectable answer to a real problem.
You know.... I think that our government could save a LOT of money by letting anyone use the restrooms of their choice. I think that they should all be unisex. After all... stink is stink and has no gender.
Cindi
Quote from: Miniar on June 09, 2009, 08:53:25 AM
To me, He/she who NEEDS to go, that's who's rights come first.
If you gotta go you gotta go.
If you start telling ppl they can't "go" here or there or everywhere, you'll end up with pee on the floor.
Quote from: Adrianna on June 09, 2009, 09:25:33 AM
In Ontario Canada, as far as I know, there are no bathroom laws save for one. The only bathroom law I know of is that it is illegal to refuse to allow someone to use the washroom.
Very similar to the way Minnesota law is written. Everyone must have equal access to public facilities. Everyone
has to be given a reasonable place to go.
presenting as girl- use the girls room
presenting as boy- use the boys room
just my oppinion...
As I see it we are looking at this issue with a transsexual bent. We know we are not dangerous, weird, perverted etc, but the trouble is that many none TS people don't see it that way cause they know nothing of who we are.
I have had the pleasure/misfortune to use many washrooms in many different countries and for the most part I have noted that in the "mens" guys go in do their business and leave. There's no interaction with other users, or very little; there is this stigma about talking to other guys with your dick in your hand.
However, in the "ladies" it's completely the opposite. Women will socialize in the washroom. "I love those shoes", "What's that lip gloss you're using?" "I love that perfume." "Oh god! you wouldn't have a tampon I could use would you? (Yes it happened)" and of course "Can you pass me some toilet paper?" SO when you are ready to go full time, be prepared.
So what's the point? Well for me and MtF I think it is incumbent for us to do our best to blend in and be the women we long to be recognized as. It is naive of us to think that GG should accept dicks in places they consider to be female domains.
-={LR}=-
I have always used the female bathroom from day one of going F/T. I figured that if I was too nervous to do this , maybe I needed to resonsider my goals.
I've used the men's room as soon as I felt it was safe to do so, meaning I was passing more than not. It so happened that coincided with a trip to AZ, where I was read as male far more consistently than home in the North East! Huge confidence boost. Now I'm consistently read as male, so I wouldn't dare try to use the ladies' room!
Pre-everything, I did get odd looks in the ladies' room in KY -- I was just starting transition, had chopped off my hair. But it was 'that time of the month' and while I had planned on using the men's room, I didn't dare with that going on. Glad I waited; and it was perfect timing when I did.
Jay
Quote from: Venus on June 09, 2009, 09:50:10 AM
One person told me an interesting spin on this topic and I think it has more to do with safety than being different(trans).
A man dressed as a woman went into the woman's bathroom waited, raped a woman and then left still dressed as a woman.
But see, that's a completely silly argument. Is this suggesting that someone who is going to go out and brutally attack someone is going to think "well so much for that, it's against the law for me to go into that bathroom, so I'll have to go knit a sweater instead of raping someone"? Cindi already said it, this is just typical nonsense being spouted by bigoted fundies to try to scare people into thinking like them. Could something like that story actually happen? Of course, but the whole argument is flawed. If someone is determined to commit a violent crime, a law about who can be in which bathroom will do nothing to stop them. Like the vast majority of far-right wing nuts' arguments, it doesn't stand up if you spend more than 10 seconds thinking about it rather than relying entirely on extremely twisted interpretations of ancient religious texts. :icon_blahblah:
The problem with these "least astonishment" rules is that they are very much subjective. What's the definition of presenting male or female, and how do you quantify enough characteristics to know when you cross over that invisible line?
Several places in Calif. have restrooms that are either or. Whether you wear the pants or the dress in your ideal :laugh:
On a funny note... I used the "mens" room at a grocery store. Then I noticed people looking at me and talking about the lady that just used the "mens" room :laugh:
I get funny looks in either bathroom ::) depends on how the moon is aligned or something I dunno
Quote from: Matilda on June 08, 2009, 07:37:04 PM
Hmmm...a transsexual woman (regardless of SRS status) is supposed to use the bathroom of her gender identification provided she presents and behaves as female while she is there. If you're using the ladies room and you're pre-op, be a lady and act like one. Don't do things a lady wouldn't do like urinating standing up where other women can see your feet pointing the toilet bowl, for instance. It's totally disrespectful & offensive. I say this because in the past I saw someone doing exactly that in a public ladies room. ::)
Hunh. I used to use the women's bathroom and pee standing up. Did it for quite a long time when I was younger. It kept me from going bonkers. And women can use appliances (or go appliance-less) and pee standing up...is that a problem? And when I use the men's room, should I feel obligated to stand even though I have no penis and am much more likely to wet myself because I'm out of practice at peeing while standing?
I'm not trying to be obnoxious, by the way. I'm really curious to see what people think. I believe that people ought to be able to pee any way they want, regardless of their equipment, and a big part of me doesn't care whether other people are offended by that...obviously, since I was standing to pee in the women's restroom long ago.
Edited to add: of course, I'm a bit off the topic you were on...I know it makes
sense for a preop MTF to pee sitting down, but I don't like having anyone dictate to me how I evacuate my own bodily wastes. I'm sort of pigheaded that way.
When I was younger there was a hill that was nick named "Party Mtn" for obvious reasons. There was a cliff side area where guys would go pee off the cliff. One time while peeing I noticed someone walk up and start peeing nearby. When I looked to see who it was, to my surprise, it was a girl. She laughed at my surprised expression and we both went back and got to know each other rather well. I didn't know such a thing was possible until then :laugh:
Quote from: Matilda on June 08, 2009, 07:37:04 PM
Hmmm...a transsexual woman (regardless of SRS status) is supposed to use the bathroom of her gender identification provided she presents and behaves as female while she is there. If you're using the ladies room and you're pre-op, be a lady and act like one. Don't do things a lady wouldn't do like urinating standing up where other women can see your feet pointing the toilet bowl, for instance. It's totally disrespectful & offensive. I say this because in the past I saw someone doing exactly that in a public ladies room. ::)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi572.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss161%2Fmatilda23%2F061.gif&hash=8f2301193b0dc73bb2e3c64f938f2048ea1a0591)
So by this logic, one should not use a men's room 'til he is able to stand and urinate? Does this include the use of a device designed to help you do so or only after the urethra is surgically altered?
You know what's great? I found a bathroom at my college cafeteria that is both for men and women. Either can go in. I'm thinking of using that one a lot this year. :laugh:
I sit. Doesn't bother me. It's easier and it's what my body was designed to do.
So far, haven't cared about standing. If I ever feel the need, I'll get a STP.
But just never cared about that sort of thing. I got to go, I use the quickest, easiest method.
Quote from: Julie Marie on June 08, 2009, 06:09:59 PM
If you are pre-op but presenting in your preferred gender.........
You are a GG and don't want a penis in the bathroom. Or you are a GM and don't want a vagina in the bathroom.
Who's rights come first?
Oh boy, oh girl....another pee discussion....
The 'peeing', or the 'needing-to-pee' individual's rights come first, given they are, or are trying to look like, sound like, and behave like the pee-ers who regularly use the facility.
If you're worried for some reason, and your ID has a female/male gender marker on it that indicates your current gender identity....STOP worrying, sit, or use your pack-n-pee, and.....pee.
Next question....suppose I gotta poop??
Quote from: Mister on June 14, 2009, 08:10:45 PM
So by this logic, one should not use a men's room 'til he is able to stand and urinate? Does this include the use of a device designed to help you do so or only after the urethra is surgically altered?
Not really. A woman standing in the women's room is much more likely to cause a reaction, right or wrong, than a man sitting in the men's room.
The problem is not how "normal" people behave, I have been using the woman washroom when out and no one seems to pay attention or care. Rule of thumb is to use the bathroom of the gender you are presenting as.
The problem comes from to gray areas... work and surroundings.
At work, someone who is uncomfortable with a trans person using their bathroom can cry sexual harrassment (which is absolutely ludicrous). In this litigious society, we often have more to fear from the lawyers than we do from real threats. As such, employers are now faced with a two potential lawsuits... discrimination (trans person) vs. harassment (GG/GM). Hard to say which side they will choose, but in the end the employer always loses. And why? Because of some close minded idiot who cant handle being in the same bathroom as a trans person.
The second more "awkward" problem comes from the environment. It would be very uncomfortable using facilities where there are small children (think chucky cheese, etc). The last thing you would want is some soccer mom crying foul because her 8 year old is in the same bathroom as you if you present as female. Its not worth the confrontation.
Sometimes its a case by case judgement I guess... YMMV.
Quote from: Arch on June 14, 2009, 07:48:15 PM
........... I don't like having anyone dictate to me how I evacuate my own bodily wastes. I'm sort of pigheaded that way.
I may be speaking for a small minority, or a large majority, I don't know, but when I went fulltime (even way before), I chose to sit to pee, because it was the most natural and culturally established way that women pee. And, well......I am a woman. I never stood to pee at home, even before transitioning. It felt yucky, and oddly incongruous with who I am. Just my idle thoughts
Bev
The only time I would stand was when I was in drab and at work. At the time I was on a delivery truck with a guy, and we usually used the bathroom together at lunch, if it had more that one urinal. Gods, I am glad that is over. At home I have always sat.
Janet
Quote from: Janet Lynn on June 15, 2009, 09:54:22 AM
The only time I would stand was when I was in drab and at work. At the time I was on a delivery truck with a guy, and we usually used the bathroom together at lunch, if it had more that one urinal. Gods, I am glad that is over. At home I have always sat.
Janet
There came a point about a year before I made the decision to transition that I vowed never to stand at a urinal again, ever. Up to that point I had always sat at home.
There were occasional embarrassing moments, but guys rarely talk in the john and *never* make a comment about a persons urination habits.
But using public facilities became a nightmare. Guys think that the toilet seat is for target practice so putting my tushie on one of those was sometimes so disgusting that I simply did not use a restroom at a potty stop. But I would NOT stand.
One of my brothers, just prior to my trip to have SRS, asked me if I was going to "write my name in the snow" one last time for old times sake.
I told him no.
-Sandy
this is dumb. it isn't rocket science. if you can't even pee like a woman, get the hell out of the ladies room & go play somewhere else.
Quote from: Natasha on June 15, 2009, 06:04:08 PM
this is dumb. it isn't rocket science. if you can't even pee like a woman, get the hell out of the ladies room & go play somewhere else.
Plain and simple :)
-={LR}=-
... I suppose that means I ought to stay out of the mens-room?
Quote from: Miniar on June 15, 2009, 06:30:49 PM
... I suppose that means I ought to stay out of the mens-room?
Not at all! Guys sit down too, all the time! They got to go poo as well and it comes out of the same hole on men as well as women :eusa_doh:. No guy is going to notice, let alone care if someone is sitting in a stall.
I agree with the half dozen (or more :icon_confused2:) posts that said use the same restroom as what you are (or 'presenting' to qoute right).
Virginia is wondering what restroom the Cat in the Hat uses :laugh:
The cat box, you silly. ;D
Janet
Quote from: Janet Lynn on June 15, 2009, 07:58:24 PM
The cat box, you silly. ;D
Janet
If the cat in the hat uses the cat box, does the cat in the hat have a cat box hat box?
-Sandy
Breaking news... The Cat in the Hat has a hat rack next to the cat box :laugh:
Quote from: Natasha on June 15, 2009, 06:04:08 PM
this is dumb. it isn't rocket science. if you can't even pee like a woman, get the hell out of the ladies room & go play somewhere else.
My sentiments exactly
The Cat in the Hat has informed me that it is jealous of your hat and wants to know how much you will sell it for :laugh:
The cat can have my hat if he promises not to be the cat that took a crap in my hat!
-Sandy
Excuse me, but I have to pee. But I'm not sure whether to use my potty or my restroom ??? I'll leave you all with the cat to debate it :laugh:
Quote from: Virginia Marie on June 15, 2009, 09:28:22 PM
Excuse me, but I have to pee. But I'm not sure whether to use my potty or my restroom ??? I'll leave you all with the cat to debate it :laugh:
What about the WC?
-Sandy(ask Jack Paar)
W.C. Fields? Ah yes my little chick a dee. Let me tell yous about the time I was drinking whiskey, smokin' a Cuban cigar and dancing naked atop the Empire State Building........ :laugh:
Grrrrrrr "Potty" can we play grown ups now?
-={LR}=-
Just be glad we don't have to use the outhouse, ok? :icon_dizzy:
Quote from: Ladyrider on June 16, 2009, 10:23:22 PM
Grrrrrrr "Potty" can we play grown ups now?
-={LR}=-
Sure thing, If you'd like to play grown ups I'll get the tea set and a little table and chairs out for you :laugh:
Quote from: Miniar on June 15, 2009, 06:30:49 PM
... I suppose that means I ought to stay out of the mens-room?
Not at all! Besides the other function that requires sitting there are a lot of men with shy bladders or bladder problems who prefer the stall and sitting. It makes things easier.
I had been sitting for years and when in a public restroom I HATED standing at a urinal next to men with their wankers hanging out. I thought it was gross. So I'd take a stall and sit. I never got any funny looks or reactions.
The whole standing at the trough experience makes a lot of men uneasy and t-girls even more uneasy. To me it was always kind of primitive, but a lot of men are primitive. :P
Min, and all you guys out there, I wouldn't even give sitting in a stall a second thought. It's a lot more common than you'd think. As for the MTF standing peeing crowd, DON"T DO IT IN A LADIES BATHROOM!!! Besides the obvious, it also messes up the toilet seat and we don't like sitting in your pee!
Julie
Quote from: Mister on June 08, 2009, 06:35:18 PM
A majority group should never be allowed to dictate the rights of a minority group.
Bull-friggin-hit.
Law abiding citizens with superior militaristic and political power follow the law because it's the laws they made and throw violators in jail. Granted that's a gross way to put it, but yeah, our court system is a majority group dictating the rights of a minority group.
Besides, who says access a public restroom was a right? It's not your restroom.
If someone obviously can't pass then it's a disturbance to the majority. Quite frankly, I'd be uncomfortable too. I'd be uncomfortable to the point of wanting that individual reprimanded or disciplined. Realistically, if I were a mother how am I supposed to get the message across to my daughter that it's a girl's exclusive spot free from male perpetrators when there's a dude(who might be female/transwoman but to a stranger looks like a bloke all the same) struttin his stuff?
Public, single stall restrooms shouldn't be a problem. When a space is shared though, then it's beyond rude; it's invasive to someone else's "right" to a supposedly free space free from members of the opposite sex representing potential pregnancies and whatever they have going through their heads. The will of the majority definitely over-rules the will of a few.
If you gotta pee that bad and you can't pass worth a hoot, find a single stall restroom or hold it in.
QuoteBesides the obvious, it also messes up the toilet seat and we don't like sitting in your pee!
I've seen pee on the seats in women's bathrooms. in fact the majority of seats I've seen have it. Even women are afraid to actually sit down; its more of a squat maneuver. But standing in the ladies' room is a surefire way to get kicked out. As for guys, do whatever you want because no one is going to say anything about it.
Am I the only girl who thought standing to pee was just really darn convenient?
Quote from: Annwyn on June 17, 2009, 10:48:18 AM
Besides, who says access a public restroom was a right? It's not your restroom.
Some public restrooms ARE my restrooms. Depends on the space. My uni is a public uni, for example. As a taxpaying member of the public, I own a piece of that.
Also, by your logic, a number of
cisgender women that I've met over the years would be barred from the women's restroom simply because some other paranoid yahoo feels that they're too masculine for that space. These women are anatomically female, have a big F on all of their documents, and identify wholly as female. Shall we doom them to the men's room, regardless of these women's feelings and regardless of the reactions of the fellas in the men's room? Shall we take a vote every time these women walk in the door of a public restroom? Shall we demand to see their documents or their genitals? And what about intersex people who present rather ambiguously?
I feel that there is too much natural variation even in cisgender human beings for us to be so dogmatic about public restrooms. And socially there are many ways to be female and many ways to be male. If the woman with her little girl doesn't recognize that there are lots of feminine-appearing men and masculine-appearing women on this planet, she needs to reeducate herself and stop imposing her bigotry on her children. Not that she will.
One man's opinion...
Quote from: Annwyn on June 17, 2009, 10:48:18 AM
If someone obviously can't pass then it's a disturbance to the majority. Quite frankly, I'd be uncomfortable too. I'd be uncomfortable to the point of wanting that individual reprimanded or disciplined.
You would honestly reprimand or discipline someone just starting out on their transition, effectively outing and embarrassing them, and possibly causing them psychological harm... just for unintentionally making you feel uncomfortable for a minute or two?!
That's a disappointing lack of understanding, and a very self centered view.
By logical extension of your argument - any minority who dares make the majority uncomfortable should be reprimanded.
If the world ran on that concept, none of us would have much in the way of rights, treatment options, or ability to transition. It took pioneers making the majority uncomfortable and fighting for the rights of the minority, for us to enjoy the freedoms that we have today.
It's not my restroom, but it isn't yours either.
Of course it's selfish. However in this regard, my selfishness is backed by majority, making me right by vote. It's how we do things in the US. Sure I know it's not fair, but it's an unfair system and trying to change an unfair system to a fair one won't happen. Single stall restrooms would be the only solution that's entirely non-discriminatory on any basis towards a person's profile.
The goal of a transsexual in transition isn't to secure new rights as a transsexual. It's to blend in and attain the same rights had as if one were never a transsexual to begin with. Camouflage and conformity, those are the two biggest players in the game of transition. If one can't play the game then well, game over. If you don't like the game, quit playing it and find a new one.
If public restrooms weren't a right, people wouldn't be fined/arrested for public urinating. ;)
If you got to go, you got to go.
Quote from: Annwyn on June 17, 2009, 02:47:03 PMCamouflage and conformity, those are the two biggest players in the game of transition. If one can't play the game then well, game over. If you don't like the game, quit playing it and find a new one.
Only, transitioning is not a game.
To a transexual, transition is more a matter of life.
Quote from: Annwyn on June 17, 2009, 02:47:03 PM
Of course it's selfish. However in this regard, my selfishness is backed by majority, making me right by vote. It's how we do things in the US.
So, what you are saying is that punishing people who make you uncomfortable through unintentional non-conformity is the right thing to do, as that's what happens in the US.
I repectfully disagree on the grounds that making people uncomforterble is not a crime.
Additionally, I don't recall there ever being a vote on this to determine the opinion of the majority.
An opinion is just an opinion. As it can be neither proven nor disproven, it by extension cannot be "right" or "wrong". It is not a fact.
Quote from: Annwyn on June 17, 2009, 02:47:03 PM
The goal of a transsexual in transition isn't to secure new rights as a transsexual. It's to blend in and attain the same rights had as if one were never a transsexual to begin with.
For instance, the right to use the restroom matching one's gender without being reprimanded?
Quote from: Annwyn on June 17, 2009, 02:47:03 PM
Camouflage and conformity, those are the two biggest players in the game of transition. If one can't play the game then well, game over. If you don't like the game, quit playing it and find a new one.
Transition is not a game, people are not "playing". You cannot "quit" being transsexual. While some people have the luxury of choosing if they transition, for many people it is not a choice - it's a psychologial imperative.
Only, transitioning is not a game.
To a transexual, transition is more a matter of life.
Point being? It's still a system in which to conform.
Additionally, I don't recall there ever being a vote on this to determine the opinion of the majority.
An opinion is just an opinion. As it can be neither proven nor disproven, it by extension cannot be "right" or "wrong". It is not a fact.
It's an assumed majority, if you're going to attempt to dispute something so obvious then there's no point in discussing this.
An opinion of majority is made right by the majority because it fits the majority and therefore makes the majority satisfied. In other words: it's easier and serves to keep the large portion of the population at rest on the issue.
For instance, the right to use the restroom matching one's gender without being reprimanded?
A restroom is fit to an individuals genitals. Hence why men stand up and chicks sit down. Those are the two options. It's not about gender, it's about genitals. Quit raggin on me if you don't like the system and get it switched to single stall bathrooms, or is all you wanna do is whine and expect a mutually exclusive system by design to bend over backwards for your needs in disregard to the majority?
Push for single stall restrooms. It's not that hard. Most everyone wants that anyways, it's more private, and privacy matters when you're taking your pants down. The more you talk about it, the more others will, and bam eventually things will work out.
But no, the system is fine just the way it is, it's just not fine for a select few, including me, unless we really get our game on and don't slack off in the transitioning process.
Quote from: AnnwynIt's an assumed majority, if you're going to attempt to dispute something so obvious then there's no point in discussing this.
Sorry, but if we were to take that as gospel than we would go back to gay bashing, slavery, the aryan master race... where would it end, besides the crematoria? And since when is it so obvious? Decades ago it was so obvious that women should stay at home and make babies instead of working. Centuries ago it was so obvious that the world was flat, and suggesting otherwise was a blasphemous act against the church. Ages ago it was so obvious that leaving the safety of the cave was a death sentence...
We talk about rights and privileges... in this country, it is our right, not just our privilege to effect change. Part of a democracy is voting in elected officials to represent our views and vote in laws... but part of democracy is also to remove said same officials and to repeal laws. Nothing is written in stone.
Its neither obvious not explainable why there is a two gender potty system. It cannot be argued for on any level... and we are neither required nor obligated to accomodate someone elses comfort level. Anyone who has a problem is welcome to find a single stall bathroom or hold it in.
Everyone is also welcome to their own point of view. No one should be silenced or told to go away.
And in so far as transitioning... no one has a right to dictate who and how one should do so. Its not a game. Only one way its game over, and thats with a toe tag.
Anyone who has a problem is welcome to find a single stall bathroom or hold it in.
Which is exactly as fair as asking the offending individual inflaming people's insecurities to do the same thing.
Quote from: Annwyn on June 17, 2009, 02:47:03 PM
Of course it's selfish. However in this regard, my selfishness is backed by majority, making me right by vote. It's how we do things in the US. Sure I know it's not fair, but it's an unfair system and trying to change an unfair system to a fair one won't happen. Single stall restrooms would be the only solution that's entirely non-discriminatory on any basis towards a person's profile.
The goal of a transsexual in transition isn't to secure new rights as a transsexual. It's to blend in and attain the same rights had as if one were never a transsexual to begin with. Camouflage and conformity, those are the two biggest players in the game of transition. If one can't play the game then well, game over. If you don't like the game, quit playing it and find a new one.
To be polite---------I disagree with everything you have have said
Post Merge: June 18, 2009, 02:59:12 PM
To show how I believe you are wrong would take an essay on World History from the Confederacy to the streets of Tehran as I type. Other than that, I don't have the energy other than to say you sound like a Republican. Sorry. Your theories would have to lead to some agency such as the TSA setting up check in lines at restrooms. I know genetic women who have been been challenged in women's restroom's because they had buzz cuts. You are today's
WORST PERSON IN THE WORLD[/b
Post Merge: June 18, 2009, 04:01:30 PM
when will you be getting a show on FOX Noise?
Post Merge: June 18, 2009, 05:05:05 PM
"What are you rebellin against?'
'Whadda ya got?'----------Elvis
Post Merge: June 18, 2009, 06:06:40 PM
You make transitioning sound as cheerful as stepping in fire ants
Post Merge: June 18, 2009, 07:08:57 PM
Quote from: Annwyn on June 17, 2009, 02:47:03 PM
Of course it's selfish. However in this regard, my selfishness is backed by majority, making me right by vote. It's how we do things in the US. Sure I know it's not fair, but it's an unfair system and trying to change an unfair system to a fair one won't happen. Single stall restrooms would be the only solution that's entirely non-discriminatory on any basis towards a person's profile.
The goal of a transsexual in transition isn't to secure new rights as a transsexual. It's to blend in and attain the same rights had as if one were never a transsexual to begin with. Camouflage and conformity, those are the two biggest players in the game of transition. If one can't play the game then well, game over. If you don't like the game, quit playing it and find a new one.
if the US is unfair on a scale of 1-10,where are we in relation to Saudi Arabia,Jamaica, and Iran?
Post Merge: June 18, 2009, 08:11:46 PM
camaflage and conformity? Kinda like passing for Aryan in 30"s Berlin? Not everybody can be as fortunate as yourself ( or myself for that matter) and be 100% passable.
Post Merge: June 18, 2009, 09:15:12 PM
As for passing, although I passed perfectly from day one-Who is going to be the passing police :police:? I guess the devil's in the details >:-)
Post Merge: June 18, 2009, 10:17:57 PM
A good woman does more than sit when peeing :o She should have brains ???and compassion :angel: That could tell you where to start
Lulz, wow what a conniption!
Peace out!
Wooooo hoooo!!! call the Potty Police!!! :police: :police: :police: The bathroom debate is getting hot :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Did you need some help sitting down ma'am? :police:
I guess you could say the fit has hit the shan! :D :D :D :D :D
Worst person in the world? Holy crap, SW... that was uncalled for. Annwyn may have unpopular beliefs regarding who should piss where, but I'm pretty sure someone's kicked their dog, been sexually inappropriate with a toddler or something much more worthy of that title.
Yeah, really. Annwyn may be a bit feisty at times, But I've personally encountered folks that make her look like a sweet heart :laugh:
I have never seen such a load of crap written in a thread about toilets.
Some people are just enjoying taking the piss.
Buffy
Socialworker, that was indeed uncalled for. It doesn't matter how strongly you disagree with someone's opinion, you can do so without resorting to personal attacks- personal attacks are not allowed here. Annwyn didn't attack you, kindly give her the same courtesy. [/Warning]
And on a personal note, my father was a republican. For fiscal reasons only, but that's how he voted. So using republican as an insult doesn't fly with me, no matter how big of a bleeding heart liberal I am.
Quote from: Virginia Marie on June 18, 2009, 11:55:46 PM
Wooooo hoooo!!! call the Potty Police!!! :police: :police: :police: The bathroom debate is getting hot :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Ha ha ha... I just see debate as a good fun sport :) I can't imagine anyone actually taking an internet debate seriously.
It's an assumed majority, if you're going to attempt to dispute something so obvious then there's no point in discussing this.Err... for fun and sport? Discussions are fun! :)
Also, I don't think it's obvious. The "majority" one knows is only ever a small sliver of the actual majority. It's like looking at outer space through a toilet roll (which, incidentally, is also a fun thing to do ;) ).
One could agrue that the majority is evident in the media, but for the most part, the impression I get from it is that we are "abnormal" no matter who we are, we don't "fit in", everybody is shallow, and the only way to fix it all is to "Buy More Stuff" (tm)! Personally, I don't trust it as a viable information source! :laugh:
Quit raggin on me if you don't like the system and get it switched to single stall bathrooms, or is all you wanna do is whine and expect a mutually exclusive system by design to bend over backwards for your needs in disregard to the majority?Actually, I'm not having a whine about the existing system. I've barely even mentioned it! (Only in passing, if you'll excuse the pun! :laugh:)
I've been disagreeing with your view that people that get clocked in public restrooms should be "punsihed or reprimanded" for making people feel uncomfortable.
That would be because I value the ability to move freely, self expression, and freedom of personal presentation over feeling comfortable - even if it's my comfort that has to go by the way side in order to preserve the freedoms of someone else.
I'm not saying "I'm right and you're wrong", I'm saying "My system of values is obviously different to yours. I am curious, and must ask lots of questions!".
My name is Bruce, and I work for the "Department of Philosophy" in the University of Wooloomooloo. I work alongside Bruce, Bruce, Bruce, Bruce and Bruce. Due to EEO laws, we no longer have a rule 6. This here is the wattle, the emblum of our land, you can stick it in a bottle or you can hold it in your hand AMEN. :laugh:
Quote from: Virginia Marie on June 19, 2009, 01:01:29 AM
Yeah, really. Annwyn may be a bit feisty at times, But I've personally encountered folks that make her look like a sweet heart :laugh:
So few people are willing to stand up and discuss their viewpoint if it doesn't tow the party line. I think her feistyness is a good thing - It allows for some interesting discussions!
If we all had the same point of view, and the same system of values, then the world would be a very boring place indeed.
Quote from: Teknoir on June 19, 2009, 02:12:04 AM
[...]
So few people are willing to stand up and discuss their viewpoint if it doesn't tow the party line. I think her feistyness is a good thing - It allows for some interesting discussions!
If we all had the same point of view, and the same system of values, then the world would be a very boring place indeed.
The only small comment I'll make here (not directed at Teknoir I hasten to add) is that strong, forthright personalities tend to dominate the discussion. I agree that it's good to have diverse viewpoints - we need our own opinions to be challenged to make us examine them, understand them, explore the rationality of them and so on.
However, it is unfortunate if the personality bullies (whether intellectual or foaming at the mouth bigots) scare the gentler personalities into silence. It happens all the time - not just on the 'net. Even in conference rooms at work, the conversation tends to get dominated by those of us who don't shy away from speaking out (myself included). Hopefully an atmosphere can be fostered where all feel welcome to express their views, even in the face of strong disagreement.
The only thing I take an active dislike to would be the minority who think it's everyone else's responsibility to filter the signal of their wisdom from the noise of their attitude. Those folks are simply r-soles.
Personally, I avoid public restrooms. Most of them are disgusting imo. But sometimes you just gotta go. I'm often not sure which one to use because people trip on me either way. That's one of the few things I miss about Calif. ... Either/Or restrooms :P
I suppose I can be a bit of a domineering intellectual bully sometimes. Good point! :D
But I digress... and we're getting into some major thread drift.
If only there were more unisex restrooms! That would really go a long way in solving the restroom issue.
They wouldn't have to be everywhere, just a few dotted around major crowd areas, like malls, showgrounds and stadiums.
Life could be so much easier if every mall had just ONE unisex restroom in it - then at least the early transitioner on the move would have somewhere they could pee in peace.
Sometimes, when you're on the road for a long time, holding it in isn't an option!
I'm sure there's unisex restrooms out there somewhere... it'd really help a lot of early transitioners if there was a website or database that would list them (or where you are most likely to find them!).
I'm sure there's unisex restrooms out there somewhere... it'd really help a lot of early transitioners if there was a website or database that would list them (or where you are most likely to find them!).
Well yeah. There is.
Quote from: tekla on June 19, 2009, 09:18:20 AM
Well yeah. There is.
Thank you, but where is it?
Here: Safe 2 Pee's unisex bathroom index (http://safe2pee.org/beta/)
Geez it's quite simple folks...
If you are GG or GM then use the appropriate washroom. If you are a TS and "Pass" use the appropriate washroom. If you are TS and "Don't Pass" then stay out of the washroom until you can or use unisex facilities - it's not rocket science.
I can't understand why TS complain about the washroom! Once you've transitioned you have no worries, get on with it.
-={LR}=-
Quote from: Mister on June 19, 2009, 12:52:14 AM
Worst person in the world? Holy crap, SW... that was uncalled for. Annwyn may have unpopular beliefs regarding who should piss where, but I'm pretty sure someone's kicked their dog, been sexually inappropriate with a toddler or something much more worthy of that title.
That is reward usually bestowed by Keith Olbermann on his nightly show on MSNBC
Quote from: xsocialworker on June 19, 2009, 11:39:02 AM
That is reward usually bestowed by Keith Olbermann on his nightly show on MSNBC
Way to avoid taking any sort of responsibility for crossing the line.
While reading this thread I laughed, I cried and I wet my pants before I could reach the bathroom.
and it seems some people here at Susans are watching a little too much Angryman on the MSLSD cable station.
camaflage and conformity? Kinda like passing for Aryan in 30"s Berlin? Not everybody can be as fortunate as yourself ( or myself for that matter) and be 100% passable.
...
As for passing, although I passed perfectly from day one-Who is going to be the passing police :police:? I guess the devil's in the details >:-)
I sent social worker a few PMs requesting pics of her 100% genuine passing gig and stuff. She hasn't replied to a single one despite forum activity.
Gee, what a surprise.
Now what kind of social behavior is that ??? Especially while we're talking about potties and such >:-) :laugh: >:-)
Given a disturbing experience i had this week, I can say one thing with absolute certainty... whether you use the bathroom of your physical gender or as the gender you present, dont stand outside the stalls whistling to yourself... its just downright creepy...
Quote from: Stacy Brahm on June 20, 2009, 02:27:42 AM
Given a disturbing experience i had this week, I can say one thing with absolute certainty... whether you use the bathroom of your physical gender or as the gender you present, dont stand outside the stalls whistling to yourself... its just downright creepy...
I 2nd that
Quote from: Ladyrider on June 19, 2009, 11:21:09 AM
Geez it's quite simple folks...
I can't understand why TS complain about the washroom! Once you've transitioned you have no worries, get on with it.
-={LR}=-
kinda makes you wonder, doesn't it? ;)
Perhaps one difference that is sometimes forgotten is between (pre-op)MTF-TS who uses ladies restroom or CD that does so. I agree that in case you have to stand while doing your issues in ladies restroom you do not belong to there.
Quote from: DarkLady on June 20, 2009, 01:30:24 PM
Perhaps one difference that is sometimes forgotten is between (pre-op)MTF-TS who uses ladies restroom or CD that does so. I agree that in case you have to stand while doing your issues in ladies restroom you do not belong to there.
MtF CD's are not female and should not be in a female only facility.
-={LR}=-
My saying "I pass perfectly" was meant as a satirical statement. I don't know if anybody does. As for using Republican as an insult----------I mean that and I am serious about that. These folks are not our friends.
As for defining the diff between a pre-op and a CD, what agency would do that? Homeland Security, some ancient Mullah?
And I NEVER miss Hardball, Keith , or Rachel on MSNBC . I follow that up with Jon Stewart and Colbert. This is because I have no life.
Post Merge: June 20, 2009, 09:18:24 PM
Posting a pic proves nothing because it might not be of me. Actually, I don't photograph so I have none.
Ever feel like some folks just like to argue? Hold that thought. I've got to pee :laugh:
For gawd sake, please don't whistle! ;) :D ;D
Tweetle deedle dee...squirt!!! ::) :laugh: >:-) :laugh:
Quote from: Virginia Marie on June 20, 2009, 09:27:33 PM
Ever feel like some folks just like to argue?
Indeed! What this thread was, was a discussion / debate - but I too have a bad feeling it's going to turn into an argument real soon... :-\
It's always a shame when a lively debate degenerates into personal mud slinging.
I only hope that those involved can rise above it, can keep it a good clean debate.
A good clean debate involving toilets... :laugh:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm2.static.flickr.com%2F1424%2F1360664188_1a743a1722.jpg&hash=e935e4453df854b7a347564d8797dda632687650)
Quote from: xsocialworker on June 20, 2009, 09:15:12 PM
My saying "I pass perfectly" was meant as a satirical statement. I don't know if anybody does. As for using Republican as an insult----------I mean that and I am serious about that. These folks are not our friends.
As for defining the diff between a pre-op and a CD, what agency would do that? Homeland Security, some ancient Mullah?
And I NEVER miss Hardball, Keith , or Rachel on MSNBC . I follow that up with Jon Stewart and Colbert. This is because I have no life.
Post Merge: June 20, 2009, 09:18:24 PM
Posting a pic proves nothing because it might not be of me. Actually, I don't photograph so I have none.
I prefer the Mullah option, at least Shiia Muslim. I do not trust Homeland Security in issues like this.
Sunni extremists are not party people either
Quote from: Teknoir on June 21, 2009, 05:06:13 AM
Indeed! What this thread was, was a discussion / debate - but I too have a bad feeling it's going to turn into an argument real soon... :-\
It's always a shame when a lively debate degenerates into personal mud slinging.
I only hope that those involved can rise above it, can keep it a good clean debate.
A good clean debate involving toilets... :laugh:
Better get out the Lysol and a brush. We might need it :laugh:
As a way of explaining, bathrooms are a hot button issue. I have problems with the concept held by anybody, trans or not, that only post=ops should be considered authentic enough to access women's facilities. This is one of the rationals used by the HRC and Rep. Barney Frank when they supported a non-inclusive ENDA. Although they both claim to have changed, pre-ops in women's facilities is a prime excuse to deny TG folk equal rights. I hate to see this thinking from another TG in our own community. It is counter-productive. The religious right has used "men" in women's restrooms as a scare tactic in elections. If pre-ops are to be considered "male" under the law, then only those who can afford GRS are allowed passing privilidge. I don't know what our kind calls " an uncle tom", but any TG supporting bathroom segregation is one in my book. TG folk are at the cutting edge of a cultural revolution and can cannot advocate going backward. Sorry
Quote from: xsocialworker on June 20, 2009, 09:15:12 PM
Posting a pic proves nothing because it might not be of me. Actually, I don't photograph so I have none.
In other words: you're not 100% passable or even near that point. It's rather obvious. If you did happen to be such a diva or were even halfway proud of your appearance then you would have some pictures. A camera phone, a camera, a webcam, anything to satisfy the vanity of an individual by bestowing others with a glimpse of your accomplishment. It's true of every single individual I know who is decent to look at, and especially of transsexuals who are pleased with how they are fulltime. Even if you had sent me a picture depicting you as someone less than gorgeous or passable, it wouldn't ever go beyond my inbox and noone would ever have known.
So, you're just another poster hiding scared behind an icon/avatar picture, too scared to pop out a smile for the camera.
Besides, passing has a lot more to do than simply physical appearance. Everyone should know that.
When you are engaged in debate then when you make extraordinary claims then by rule of formal debate you support your statements by system of
burden of proof. I've been able to follow that system, even loosely, since I was 13 years old. Surely it wouldn't be excessively difficult to do the same.
No mudslinging is involved here: just facts.
Religious right activists think that MTF-posties are still ''male''. They do not make difference between pre-op and post-op because sex is a birthgift from God.
I guess it boils down to some simple facts,
- if you are a GG and afraid a man in the ladies' room you are using poses a physical threat to you
- if you are offended by a person who presents to you as a gender opposite the one the bathroom is designated for
- if you are uncomfortable sharing the bathroom with the opposite gender
... there will always be a bathroom debate.
In the mean time, be courteous and considerate towards those you share public bathrooms, regardless of gender presentation.
Julie
Only persons having problems with me inside the restroom have been the oldest women when I have had passing problems probably. All who genuinly identify female and live in that role should be allowed to use women's restrooms.
Post Merge: June 21, 2009, 12:02:13 PM
Here the arguments againts GLBT-civili rights are usually relating to arguments that ''they are idea from the Soviet Union'' not for religion.
This is not meant to be mean or bellicose, but for someone who claims to be well versed in debate and reason, you have a number of possibly fallacious assumptions and logical lapses in this post, Toni.
Quote from: Toni on June 21, 2009, 08:29:47 AM
In other words: you're not 100% passable or even near that point. It's rather obvious.
Yes, it is rather obvious, especially since she already said that she was being sarcastic about being 100% passable.
Quote from: Toni on June 21, 2009, 08:29:47 AM
Even if you had sent me a picture depicting you as someone less than gorgeous or passable, it wouldn't ever go beyond my inbox and noone would ever have known.
And how is she to know this for sure? Because you always go out of your way to be disarming and reassuring? No, you're a scrapper. You're fierce. You take a side and defend it, even if everyone is against you. But when you take on that role, don't expect the opposition to automatically trust you. I sure as heck wouldn't until/unless I had a lot more to go on.
Quote from: Toni on June 21, 2009, 08:29:47 AM
So, you're just another poster hiding scared behind an icon/avatar picture, too scared to pop out a smile for the camera.
Maybe she's just being circumspect. Maybe she is protecting her job. Maybe she doesn't want to post pictures until she feels that she has fully transitioned. Maybe she doesn't own a camera. Maybe she doesn't even LIKE cameras.
Quote from: Toni on June 21, 2009, 08:29:47 AMBesides, passing has a lot more to do than simply physical appearance. Everyone should know that.
If passing isn't based solely on personal appearance, why do YOU want a picture, ostensibly to base your appraisal of her passing ability on a two-dimensional image? (Yeah, I know physical appearance is a big part of it, and a pic would be nice. But still, think of what you miss. And pictures can be dishonest or doctored.)
By the way, I agree that "passing" (gawd, I hate that word) is based on more. I'm not taking issue with that.
Quote from: Toni on June 21, 2009, 08:29:47 AM
If you did happen to be such a diva or were even halfway proud of your appearance then you would have some pictures. A camera phone, a camera, a webcam, anything to satisfy the vanity of an individual by bestowing others with a glimpse of your accomplishment. It's true of every single individual I know who is decent to look at, and especially of transsexuals who are pleased with how they are fulltime.
I don't know whether I'm "decent to look at," but some people just don't take pictures. I seem to be passing pretty well everywhere but the gay part of town (I think most of us know how that goes), but I still have no pictures of MYself after I started presenting as male full time. In fact, I don't want to take any pics of myself at all, except that a long-distance friend requested some. I guess I'll oblige him...in a couple of months, after I've had a chance to pick up a camera phone. But if he hadn't asked, I might very well be happy to continue as I was. People think I'm a barbarian for not taking pictures--and for other reasons, I suspect--but I just don't. I don't have pictures of my cats, my friends, or even of my partner (now ex) of TWENTY YEARS.
Well, there's an explanation for my lack of pics. The short answer--and this covers my lack of pics for everyone--is that I'm lazy. The long answer--and this covers my lack of pics of myself--is that I'm trans. Around puberty, I (understandably, I think) became incredibly camera-shy. I wasn't a troll; I just had to live in the wrong body. So I got in the habit of avoiding the camera. Apart from ID photos, the last verified picture of me was taken some fifteen years ago. And I don't know what I did with that pic. Isn't it possible that someone else on the planet (maybe xsocialworker) is in the same boat?
Toni, I find it problematic that you frequently make sweeping generalizations. They work fine until ONE person comes along and punches ONE little hole in your balloon. You might want to rethink the strategy. And I wish you would take on my earlier question in this thread about cisgender people who don't pass in their own bathrooms. It was a legitimate question and a pertinent one, and I was interested to see your response.
Quote from: Arch on June 21, 2009, 01:24:17 PM
Yes, it is rather obvious, especially since she already said that she was being sarcastic about being 100% passable.
Let's quote her then...
Quotecamaflage and conformity? Kinda like passing for Aryan in 30"s Berlin? Not everybody can be as fortunate as yourself ( or myself for that matter) and be 100% passable.
Post Merge: June 18, 2009, 10:15:12 pmAs for passing, although I passed perfectly from day one-Who is going to be the passing police :police:? I guess the devil's in the details >:-)
Two statements made, one after another, both self-absorbed wishy wash. That's vanity right there, and I called BS.
And how is she to know this for sure? Because you always go out of your way to be disarming and reassuring? No, you're a scrapper. You're fierce. You take a side and defend it, even if everyone is against you. But when you take on that role, don't expect the opposition to automatically trust you. I sure as heck wouldn't until/unless I had a lot more to go on.
Quote from: Arch on June 21, 2009, 01:24:17 PMIf passing isn't based solely on personal appearance, why do YOU want a picture, ostensibly to base your appraisal of her passing ability on a two-dimensional image? (Yeah, I know physical appearance is a big part of it, and a pic would be nice. But still, think of what you miss. And pictures can be dishonest or doctored.)
She was the one tootin her own horn. "passing perfectly" implies a degree of passing both in appearance and behavior.
Quote from: Arch on June 21, 2009, 01:24:17 PMI wish you would take on my earlier question in this thread about cisgender people who don't pass in their own bathrooms. It was a legitimate question and a pertinent one, and I was interested to see your response.
I find it highly unlikely that even a cisgender individual living in his/her preferred role would not pass at least on some level, especially considering all the pharmaceutical and surgical windows open to any other individual.
How sad, this "I pass better" crap!
What's gone wrong here? Susan?
This really should be all about having mind and body in congruence, not about being more passable than the other mtf, or prettier, better, etc.
Before access to one another via internet, we had NO connection to one another. Now that we do, why beat each other up?
Am I wrong, or aren't these forums about information, support, and .....hmmm.....support??
Just my own pee-vish thoughts.
Bev
I know a lot of people don't like to hear it but its true Toni is right. It is a cruel world and is what it is. If you pass you can use the ladies room but if not and you use it be prepared to see the local jail or have some good old boys go burning Mississippi on you. It sucks but it is the way things are. And as far as the I pass better thing it's fun to be cocky about that sometimes. I myself am totally guilty of that sort of behavior myself, it just shows you have confidence in yourself. Sorry to anyone this offends but hay I didn't write the rules and I don't see them changing anytime soon either.
Who said anything about, "I pass better?"
Since no one did, then why the heck are people making up statements about it?
hey Bev said it, but i was also thinking it. did not mean to put words in anyones mouth
Quote from: Ladyrider on June 20, 2009, 01:33:11 PM
MtF CD's are not female and should not be in a female only facility.
-={LR}=-
Regardless of what gender they might be, it isn't safe for a M2F CD to use the men's room when presenting as female.
Z
noppers but the ladies room could also get you into trouble or killed as well.
Nice job of ducking the issues and tossing out red herrings and changing the terms of the discussion, Toni. I think I'll spend my time elsewhere this evening. Have a good one.
Quote from: Arch on June 21, 2009, 10:49:34 PM
Nice job of ducking the issues and tossing out red herrings and changing the terms of the discussion, Toni. I think I'll spend my time elsewhere this evening. Have a good one.
Nice pointing of the finger.
I'm making hand shadow puppets of everyone arguing :laugh: >:-) :laugh:
Oops, gotta pee again
You could just make hand shadow puppets of everyone peeing... ::) :o :D
Quote from: Stacy Brahm on June 21, 2009, 11:23:52 PM
You could just make hand shadow puppets of everyone peeing... ::) :o :D
That too. But now I have to mop the floor :P :laugh:
Whistle while you work.... >:-) >:-)
I guess the contents of this thread pretty much means you can place the bathroom issue in with religion and politics. Differing opinions will never be resolved.
I'd say it's time to put this one to rest. Further discussion will not resolve anything.
Julie
Quote from: Julie Marie on June 21, 2009, 11:52:59 PM
I'd say it's time to put this one to rest. Further discussion will not resolve anything.
I don't think we'll ever resovle anything either, and that's perfectly OK.
Sometimes the point of having a debate is to hear new viewpoints, challenge your opinions, play around with logic, and have a little fun! :)
you can place the bathroom issue in with religion and politics. Differing opinions will never be resolved.
Of course the second two are not a matter of law and legislation, while the first is, which makes it something very different. And, to know that even among us there is such division, and you wonder why the public at large has trouble with it? Well....
Its human nature, and not limited to religion, politics or potty habits. Just go to any trekkie site...
Reminds of a joke I heard... two men of the cloth are stranded on a desert island. Each has a different take on faith and needs a place to worship. When the rescuers came they saw 3 huts on the island. They asked "why 3 huts?"
"Simple my son. That one is where he prays, and this one is where I pray."
"And the third one?"
"Oh, thats the place neither of us would be caught dead in!"
I have solved this issue once and for all.
Like most good ideas that solve large problems it is also a model of simplicity,
From now on everybody in the entire world will be restricted to wearing Depends Undergarments while in public.
All restroom facilities outside the home are hereby outlawed.
Yes, before posting this I took the time to short my positions in the American Standard Corp and went long on the makers of Depends.
A wonderful side benefit to my decision... both men and women can now pee while standing up.
Hmmm.. are catheters an option for people who are more cleanliness-minded?
If you so desire. But don't expect ObamaCare to provide for them, as catheters are a known source of bladder infections.
Quote from: Zythyra on June 21, 2009, 08:59:38 PM
Regardless of what gender they might be, it isn't safe for a M2F CD to use the men's room when presenting as female.
Z
Just because a CD is out and about "Cross-dressed" doesn't give them the right to use the washroom they are presenting as. If they are worried about having to use a washroom then they need to plan their outings better.
-={LR}=-
This thread has drifted so much that it no longer resembles anything like the original discussion.
Which is true of most threads, except for "My Odyssey Continues".
-Sandy
doesn't give them the right to use the washroom they are presenting as.
Happily the law as written in some places says exactly that.
Quote from: tekla on June 22, 2009, 06:15:45 PM
doesn't give them the right to use the washroom they are presenting as.
Happily the law as written in some places says exactly that.
And happily I agree. In many countries, states, provinces anyone can use any washroom.
As this is a TS forum I'll just add that TS must be allowed to use the WC of the gender they identify as, be they pre-op, or living RLT. There should be no issue with post-ops. I think that problems start with this whole issue when those who are CD start demanding that they share the right of free access. When others see this they see "Men in Dresses" pretending to be women, and wanting to share/encroach/invade a female space.
If you pass use the appropriate facilities, if you don't pass don't be surprised when you are not accepted with open arms.
-={LR}=-
What about those transsexuals who have had SRS, maybe FFS, voice training, total hair removal, and all legal papers in order and still don't pass effectively? Should they still use the facilities of their birth gender? Single occupancy stalls? Or go where they wish with the confidence of knowing that if they are questioned, they have the correct papers?
Maybe they should always ask where the "restroom"is and go where they are directed. Maybe they should dress androgenously and give up "passing"
Maybe any restroom laws wherever they may exist have the moral authority of Jim Crow laws of the Fifties and just need to be ignored.
This could could set me up for some people to say I'm admitting I don't pass and that is why I don't have a pic.As dick Cheney would say"so what"
Post Merge: June 22, 2009, 11:25:44 PM
I'm always chased up mountains by mobs with stones and pitchforks. That is why I have no :icon_help:pic :icon_help:
Well, Toni may have a couple of rocks and a pitch fork handy :laugh: But I'm thinking maybe you need a hug :icon_hug:
As a matter of answering a question asked.
Quote from: Toni on June 21, 2009, 01:54:34 PM
I find it highly unlikely that even a cisgender individual living in his/her preferred role would not pass at least on some level, especially considering all the pharmaceutical and surgical windows open to any other individual.
Hate to do it to ya, Toni, but both of these instances have been in the News forum here over the past year.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21246685/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21246685/) and http://www.jasmynecannick.com/blog/?p=1854 (http://www.jasmynecannick.com/blog/?p=1854)
Now, y'all may agree or disagree, but please try to show a bit of respect for one another regardless. Ok now? :)
All respect understood and given. I was made to show my private parts after visiting a men's room at a dance club ??? If the laws that are in place now were in place then, that club would have been screwed. For some odd reason, when they finally looked at my ID, They suddenly became rather nice. Go figure. I didn't understand it either
On an odd note, I noticed that at the clubs I frequented, the ladies room would often become over crowded. Women would often rely on trustable Individuals to stand guard while they used the "mens room"
Quote from: xsocialworker on June 22, 2009, 11:22:34 PM
What about those transsexuals who have had SRS, maybe FFS, voice training, total hair removal, and all legal papers in order and still don't pass effectively?
Sucks for them. If they've had SRS then sure, unless they look like this but uglier:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm1.static.flickr.com%2F24%2F49516151_f44947f3eb.jpg&hash=90466e3b74cd39cdbcb03def334b0202d7f5dc0c)
Then, it's up to them if they want to risk the venture. Legally, no one can say anything. They probably will though.
Oh yeah and girly girl, if you don't wanna post pics then that's fine. But if you're too scared to post pics then don't go tootin on us about how pretty or passable or whatever you are. I'd ask the same of everyone.
Quote from: Nichole on June 22, 2009, 11:45:59 PM
Now, y'all may agree or disagree, but please try to show a bit of respect for one another regardless. Ok now? :)
Bite me.
Oh silly, relax a bit. You don't have to kill everyone. You're lookin' good and doing well. Why get involved in some inconsequential pissing match ???
Quote from: xsocialworker on June 22, 2009, 11:22:34 PM
What about those transsexuals who have had SRS, maybe FFS, voice training, total hair removal, and all legal papers in order and still don't pass effectively? Should they still use the facilities of their birth gender? Single occupancy stalls? Or go where they wish with the confidence of knowing that if they are questioned, they have the correct papers?
Maybe they should always ask where the "restroom"is and go where they are directed. Maybe they should dress androgenously and give up "passing"
Maybe any restroom laws wherever they may exist have the moral authority of Jim Crow laws of the Fifties and just need to be ignored.
This could could set me up for some people to say I'm admitting I don't pass and that is why I don't have a pic.As dick Cheney would say"so what"
Post Merge: June 22, 2009, 11:25:44 PM
I'm always chased up mountains by mobs with stones and pitchforks. That is why I have no :icon_help:pic :icon_help:
Only time I got negative looks (from the oldest ladies only) from women's restroom I was post-op, my documents said female but I was too ill and tired to dress and make-up perfectly. So in case we are logical I cannot use male restroom because of my genitalia and female restroom because of my ''birthsex''. So I feel that it is question about discrimination.
On another forum (non-TS) someone posted a thread about transpeople, and of course the theme was negative. In a post trying to explain how we're just regular folk, I mentioned as part of my answer that I could be standing at the urinal next to you.
Some guy got argumentative and said, "Statements like this are what makes it hard for mainstream people to accept you. It does sound as if you are trying to frighten them or just be confrontational."
Seriously. I frighten this big biker dude (his pic) by peeing next to him?
Jay
Quote from: Ladyrider on June 22, 2009, 05:28:44 PM
Just because a CD is out and about "Cross-dressed" doesn't give them the right to use the washroom they are presenting as. If they are worried about having to use a washroom then they need to plan their outings better.
-={LR}=-
I'm not sure one could always tell the difference between a CD and TS. And why should it be OK for a M2F CD to risk getting beaten up if they go to the men's restroom while presenting as female? Do we all need to carry gender ID cards to use bathrooms now? ::)
Z
The ID is not enough. Even not SRS here where I live if asked from authorities. So the simple's solutation is that people should use the restroom of gender they presents.
I am a straight, hetrosexual, cisgender male.
Personally I would not care if a FtM transsexual used the men's restroom.
In a country that should assure equal rights to all living here I see no problem with them using the restroom they feel they should use.
My only concern would be in the area of little children using the restroom.
In that I would feel they should use a private stall if the child is too young to understand transsexuality for the child's sake.
It's really no big deal to me.
I think that in this thread there is too much openly racists and transphobic posts. It is pathetic that the person herself identifies as transpeople.
I see a lot of ->-bleeped-<-r than thou stuff, but I'm not seeing anything racist, and Americans tend to be pretty sensitive to racism as opposed to some other more homogeneous populations.
Quote from: Alicia Marie on June 23, 2009, 08:22:18 AM
I am a straight, hetrosexual, cisgender male.
Personally I would not care if a FtM transsexual used the men's restroom.
In a country that should assure equal rights to all living here I see no problem with them using the restroom they feel they should use.
My only concern would be in the area of little children using the restroom.
In that I would feel they should use a private stall if the child is too young to understand transsexuality for the child's sake.
It's really no big deal to me.
I have children.
If I'm using a urinal, how is that different from a cisgendered male using the urinal? If cisgendered men don't know I'm a FTM transsexual, how will a child? I'm not flashing my genitals in public, and neither is any other guy using a urinal.
Explain?
Jay
sneakersjay,
I would assume that if you have kids they are already familiar with transsexuality. Because of this your using the restroom of your target gender may be normal.
Now, keep in mind that I am merely attempting to bring forth a view from an unbiased straight person with very little knowledge of transsexuality.
Let's say, hypothetically speaking that a FtM would come into a restroom where there is a little child that has never been familiarized with transsexuality.
Let's say that this person didn't pass well.
Even though I personally would ignore the person and let them do their thing the child may not be so understanding.
The child might wonder why this woman is in the men's restroom. Depending on what type of household this child comes from and what kind of things his parents teach him this child could be quite scared.
I cannot say what I would do since I am straight but I tend to think that with the mindset that I have towards going out of my way to keep from scaring a child I would use the stall instead of the urinal.
I see that as merely a personal choice that I would make because of the convictions I hold from the upbringing I had. Nothing more; nothing less. Just my personal way to show kindness and consideration unto a child and the child's parents. Which I would hope would be appreciated by the parent enough to attempt to explain or seek out knowledge of transsexuality enough to teach that child when he asks why there was a woman in the restroom.
But, that's just a straight guy's opinion.
As for the original question about who's rights to honor, I would say both with each side showing consideration unto the other.
Quote from: Alicia Marie on June 23, 2009, 09:47:09 AM
sneakersjay,
I would assume that if you have kids they are already familiar with transsexuality. Because of this your using the restroom of your target gender may be normal.
Now, keep in mind that I am merely attempting to bring forth a view from an unbiased straight person with very little knowledge of transsexuality.
Let's say, hypothetically speaking that a FtM would come into a restroom where there is a little child that has never been familiarized with transsexuality.
Let's say that this person didn't pass well.
Even though I personally would ignore the person and let them do their thing the child may not be so understanding.
The child might wonder why this woman is in the men's restroom. Depending on what type of household this child comes from and what kind of things his parents teach him this child could be quite scared.
I cannot say what I would do since I am straight but I tend to think that with the mindset that I have towards going out of my way to keep from scaring a child I would use the stall instead of the urinal.
I see that as merely a personal choice that I would make because of the convictions I hold from the upbringing I had. Nothing more; nothing less. Just my personal way to show kindness and consideration unto a child and the child's parents. Which I would hope would be appreciated by the parent enough to attempt to explain or seek out knowledge of transsexuality enough to teach that child when he asks why there was a woman in the restroom.
But, that's just a straight guy's opinion.
As for the original question about who's rights to honor, I would say both with each side showing consideration unto the other.
Most transpeople refrain from using the restroom of their target gender until they pass pretty well, for this reason.
If your child asks why there is a lady in the men's room you can say one of two things, both of which may be true: either 'she made a mistake' (happens; as a woman I've seen my share of men come into the wrong room, mostly foreigners) or 'he's a boy(man).'
I didn't use the men's room until I passed far more often than not, and didn't start using urinals until well after that. If I'm in the men's room, at the urinal, your child will not think I'm a lady. And if someone who passes less is at the urinal, why wouldn't your child assume that person is male? Women don't pee at urinals (usually!). And women don't choose to use the men's room (usually!).
And most kids aren't scared of women, in general. I do understand your point. But I find kids more understanding than adults; adults sometimes don't want to be in the position of having to explain something they don't understand or are uncomfortable with to a inquisitive child.
Quick question: if you are a cisgendered straight male, why is your screen name Alicia Marie?
Jay
jay,
I understand your point as well. I do know some kids that do get scared of being in bathrooms such as at stores and malls and such. It wouldn't take much to frighten them.
I was mainly posting from the viewpoint of cutting off occasion for any possible problems before they could even start if I was transsexual. My post wasn't meant to belittle anyone or start any conflicts. I just figured that I would provide a straight cisgendered view of things. But then again, you probably seen them or heard them before.
Now for your question.
The reason I chose a female screen name is because when I first came here I truly thought I was a transsexual.
Back then I was seeking out why I felt the way I did from my youth and was pretty much trying to find out where I would fit in.
In time I came to the conclusion that I am a straight, heterosexual, cisgender male.
The reason I continue to visit is because when I compared Susan's to the Christian sites I was on the people here seem to be the ones that make the most sense.
I enjoy learning and enjoy seeing things from different points of view.
I guess in reality I shouldn't even post in this section but I did feel the need to bring an opinion to find out the response for myself first hand. No he said / she said.
Thank you for your time in supplying an answer.
Quote from: DarkLady on June 23, 2009, 08:14:38 AM
The ID is not enough. Even not SRS here where I live if asked from authorities. So the simple's solutation is that people should use the restroom of gender they presents.
Get real.
Taking a side in a controversial issue does not constitute bigotry. I take the term, "Bigot," to be highly offensive and insulting. Try being a bit more careful with your mudslinging or things will get really ugly really fast.
Quote from: Zythyra on June 23, 2009, 07:50:22 AM
I'm not sure one could always tell the difference between a CD and TS. And why should it be OK for a M2F CD to risk getting beaten up if they go to the men's restroom while presenting as female? Do we all need to carry gender ID cards to use bathrooms now? ::)
Z
And if a CD passes then all the power to them, just don't cry the blues about discrimination etc if they are discovered. That being said I still don't abide CD's being able to legally use facilities of the gender they are dressed as. As I said before if a CD should get "caught short" while on one of their "Outings", too bad they should plan them better.
I was involved in a washroom incident myself a few years back. I was pre-op, RLT and had much of my documentation changed. I was at a club and I suppose I had used the WC about twice (Can't hold my beer) My next trip I was stopped by security and denied access to the Ladies as there had been a complaint from other female patrons that I was a man and I couldn't be there. I told him they were crazy and he asked for ID which I provided. The security guard saw the "F" and shrugged his shoulders and told me to go right in.
Suffice it to say that Pre-ops, RLT etc. are always going to run the risk of being denied access even though they have every right to be there. The good part is that for the most part this is only a temporary issue that usually goes away once a person is post op. Then it doesn't matter how ugly a woman your are, you are a woman who has all the parts to prove it.
The other point is that many use the "Being attacked" in the wash room as a risk but I think that while there is always that chance a person is more likely to be embarrassed/cited/charged/chased out/laught at or what ever else, than be attacked.
-={LR}=-
Quote from: Alicia Marie on June 23, 2009, 10:21:30 AM
jay,
I understand your point as well. I do know some kids that do get scared of being in bathrooms such as at stores and malls and such. It wouldn't take much to frighten them.
I was mainly posting from the viewpoint of cutting off occasion for any possible problems before they could even start if I was transsexual. My post wasn't meant to belittle anyone or start any conflicts. I just figured that I would provide a straight cisgendered view of things. But then again, you probably seen them or heard them before.
I didn't take your post as belittling or argumentative.
As a parent, I found my kids more curious and asked tons of questions. I guess my kids have never been afraid of much. I give my kids honest answers, but I know a lot of parents are uncomfortable talking about things like sex, sexuality, and even transsexualism with their kids.
QuoteNow for your question.
The reason I chose a female screen name is because when I first came here I truly thought I was a transsexual.
Back then I was seeking out why I felt the way I did from my youth and was pretty much trying to find out where I would fit in.
In time I came to the conclusion that I am a straight, heterosexual, cisgender male.
Is that you talking or what some Christian has drilled into you? I'm not picking on you personally, just as a former "Christian" I have issues with them and their beliefs and methods. As a scientist, I can see how a lot of their beliefs are hogwash. And I know how painful it is to hide your true self to be accepted by people you love and/or associate with.
Quote
The reason I continue to visit is because when I compared Susan's to the Christian sites I was on the people here seem to be the ones that make the most sense.
I enjoy learning and enjoy seeing things from different points of view.
You're welcome to be here, and I hope you find what you're looking for. Be true to yourself!
QuoteI guess in reality I shouldn't even post in this section but I did feel the need to bring an opinion to find out the response for myself first hand. No he said / she said.
Thank you for your time in supplying an answer.
Thanks for your perspective on the bathroom issue. But I think people's fears are unfounded. After all, how many women have you seen in the men's room at the urinal?
Jay
Ironic. I gave this thread a read thinking it might touch upon the situation here in Anchorage, AK where the public bathroom debate is being used to attack equal rights and protection legislation. It is the ease with which people allow themselves to be frightened beyond reason and manipulated that amazes me. There might be a legitimate cause for concern for the safety of ALL people affected by this topic, and a legitimate issue about social courtesy and manners, but no legitimate issue can be resolved in the face of panic and confusion, especially when it they are promoted by individuals for personal gain or self-interest. Society must serve the needs of all of us or else it will serve the needs of none of us. I won't blame this controversy on religious prejudice, because that's a misnomer for simple ignorance. In some cases, I'd say willful ignorance, or even stupidity.
When fear is used to dictate policy, the motive is always power. The real purpose of fear is to focus your attention on potential danger, to identify what the danger is, and to determine whether you need to stand and fight or run away. We are limited to those two options, when acting in fear, because when one is the wrong option, the other is the only possible course of action. The problems raised in this issue cannot be resolved by fighting or running away, because they are not real, immediate threats. The questions raised in this issue can only be resolved by mature, rational, responsible thought.
Quote from: avmorgan on June 23, 2009, 01:00:39 PM
The questions raised in this issue can only be resolved by mature, rational, responsible thought.
That just ruled out 95% of the people here then.
Buffy
And pretty much our political system too.
Now, doesn't that just put the whole problem into a more terrifying light?
No, it puts it in this light. Where people have worked to change the law, it has been changed. Where they bitch and moan, nothing happens. Same as it ever was.
Face it, 95% of the people were pretty useless anyway. I used to have a theory that the same 100 people made things happen in their sphere, so, for example, if there is a big concert in SF, I'm going to know most of the people there. Because we are the people who have always put on these shows. Same with political stuff.
Same for almost anything... after almost 30 years in my field I run into (sometimes by collaboration, sometimes by competition) the same handful of people...
Question is, at what point to the 95% ever make a difference? Watching the events unfolding in Iran, with the unwashed masses protesting and the numbers rising... makes you wonder. What spark does it take to make the 95% more vocal than the 100 people who usually make the spotlight?
I also have to wonder after reading through the posts here... can someone calmly explain what is the reason why some seem so bothered if the "wrong" person shows up in the public multi-stalled bathroom of a particular gender? Please dont quote laws or "its obvious"... what I am asking is what is it in your gut that feels so uncomfortable? Why does this personally bother you? I am just trying to understand...
Quote from: Stacy Brahm on June 23, 2009, 03:35:21 PM
Same for almost anything... after almost 30 years in my field I run into (sometimes by collaboration, sometimes by competition) the same handful of people...
Question is, at what point to the 95% ever make a difference? Watching the events unfolding in Iran, with the unwashed masses protesting and the numbers rising... makes you wonder. What spark does it take to make the 95% more vocal than the 100 people who usually make the spotlight?
I also have to wonder after reading through the posts here... can someone calmly explain what is the reason why some seem so bothered if the "wrong" person shows up in the public multi-stalled bathroom of a particular gender? Please dont quote laws or "its obvious"... what I am asking is what is it in your gut that feels so uncomfortable? Why does this personally bother you? I am just trying to understand...
I wouldn't mind at all, I'd say "Oh, hi, this is the boys bathroom, for your information." I wouldn't care if she stayed there or went to the bathroom in there, in fact, it would be kinda nice to see another girl in there.
Quote from: Stacy Brahm on June 23, 2009, 03:35:21 PM
I also have to wonder after reading through the posts here... can someone calmly explain what is the reason why some seem so bothered if the "wrong" person shows up in the public multi-stalled bathroom of a particular gender? Please dont quote laws or "its obvious"... what I am asking is what is it in your gut that feels so uncomfortable? Why does this personally bother you? I am just trying to understand...
That's what I'd like to know too. And I'd really like to know why it bothers people that <gasp!> transpeople who pass actually use the restrooms of their chosen gender...creeps people out that we may be right there at the urinal. Why do you care, esp. if I pass?
Jay
Quote from: Stacy Brahm on June 23, 2009, 03:35:21 PM
I also have to wonder after reading through the posts here... can someone calmly explain what is the reason why some seem so bothered if the "wrong" person shows up in the public multi-stalled bathroom of a particular gender? Please dont quote laws or "its obvious"... what I am asking is what is it in your gut that feels so uncomfortable? Why does this personally bother you? I am just trying to understand...
It's not you that has to understand.
It's the rest of the world that has to grow up!
I've been to a couple of gay/lesbian gala events and the restrooms were non-gendered. Boys and girls together in the same room at the same time going potty.
The boys, if they were of a mind stood at the urinal. I mean come on, they had their backs to the world! Everyone else used the stalls. A guy went into the stall next to me. BFD... We came out at the same time and smiled at each other.
It was considered polite do "adjust" yourself or straighten your dress privately.
Oddly, I felt completely unthreatened.
And if you ever watched BSG you'll know that the bathrooms on a battle star were non-gendered.
-Sandy
That sounds pretty nifty Sandy.
It's pretty much the same solution to the entire problem: get a new system.
As long as there's two restrooms labeled, "male," and, "female," then there will always be room for discrimination.
Quote from: Toni on June 23, 2009, 04:05:02 PM
As long as there's two restrooms labeled, "male," and, "female," then there will always be room for discrimination.
Could not agree with you more.
Quote from: Toni on June 23, 2009, 04:05:02 PM
That sounds pretty nifty Sandy.
It's pretty much the same solution to the entire problem: get a new system.
As long as there's two restrooms labeled, "male," and, "female," then there will always be room for discrimination.
I disagree. There are many practical reasons for gendered restrooms. However for pre-op transsexual that presents female should be allowed to use women's restroom. For post-ops it should be natural or it is pure discrimination. I cannot find any other reasons for her arguments that being mean against gender-variant people. But pathetically she is part of those people too. It is kind of choice be ubermann or transition. You do not get both.
Whatever, Darklady. The system is messed up and it can't be fixed for us really.
This is the thread that doesn't end...Yes it goes on and on my friend...Some people started posting here, not knowing what it was, and they'll just keep on posting here forever just because....
Probably because its the only place where there is a forced contact in a intimate situation with the general public. It's the only place where other people have a legitimate right to have their 'rights' thought about and considered also.
Quote from: Kara on June 23, 2009, 05:25:24 PM
This is the thread that doesn't end...Yes it goes on and on my friend...Some people started posting here, not knowing what it was, and they'll just keep on posting here forever just because....
Yes, Lamb Chop, I totally agree. :)
Quote from: Nichole on June 23, 2009, 06:29:00 PM
Yes, Lamb Chop, I totally agree. :)
So.......why not slam the bathroom door on this one, Nicky? It's gone waaay overdue.....
Oh yeah ending debate solves the problem, just ask the mullahs in Iran.
Quote from: Miss Bev on June 23, 2009, 06:44:14 PM
So.......why not slam the bathroom door on this one, Nicky? It's gone waaay overdue.....
The fact that I see circles and more circles isn't unusual around either Susan's or any other Forum I have ever been a part of. The same topics recur and the usual suspects can generally be found doing the usual thing.
But, despite the fact that most of it has been said, imo, and the lines are pretty well-drawn as to who believes what there is nothing in the thread that merits locking it.
As usual this thread will die when no one has anything further to say in it.
I find that the best way to opt out is to opt out and leave the conversation to others who desire to have or continue it. When they are done, the thread will go quiet as all of them eventually do -- or someone will start a new thread as this one acculmulates pages: "The Bathroom Debate Continued - Who's Rights Matter Most". :)
There's no flames at the moment and no need to close the thread. That's not my place without there being good reason. I see no good reason to do so and a few good ones to allow people to say what they want to say within the TOS.
The thread stays open.
N~
Quote from: tekla on June 23, 2009, 06:46:02 PM
Oh yeah ending debate solves the problem, just ask the mullahs in Iran.
That is so..........what's the word?
Oh, heck, lemme out the ladies room door of this thread. I'll wash my hands.
*thud*
To answer Toni, I don't have any pics stored in this PC. The one with all my pics crashed. The pics were on floppies and this laptop doesn't do floppies. I could post a drawing of Jane Fonda as Barbarella. Actually, I am a very large man . I look like Paul Sorvino and I live in a basement across from Yankee Stadium. I only pretend to be TS as a project to get my GED. I have not even decided to cross-dress as I would need the courage to go to Yankee Stadium in a mini-skirt to root for Derek Jeter.
Quote from: xsocialworker on June 23, 2009, 07:06:54 PM
To answer Toni, I don't have any pics stored in this PC. The one with all my pics crashed. The pics were on floppies and this laptop doesn't do floppies. I could post a drawing of Jane Fonda as Barbarella. Actually, I am a very large man . I look like Paul Sorvino and I live in a basement across from Yankee Stadium. I only pretend to be TS as a project to get my GED. I have not even decided to cross-dress as I would need the courage to go to Yankee Stadium in a mini-skirt to root for Derek Jeter.
Interesting story you have there, XSW!! :laugh:
Now the thread's interesting again. :laugh:
Of course pitchers in the American League wear skirts cause they can throw at people without the fear of ever coming to bat themselves. American league pitchers are allowed to use the female bathroom in National League stadiums.
Quote from: Buffy on June 23, 2009, 01:05:29 PM
That just ruled out 95% of the people here then.
Buffy
Hmmm! Now this has me wondering Buffy... When you say 95 % of the people here are immature, irrational, and irresponsible are you referring to the membership in general or just those who have posted in this topic? A bunch of BS if you ask me, but I know you didn't Buffy but what the heck debate is always good.
These topics always get resurrected in time. New members join and of course have questions or have different points of view and to tell them that their point of view is irrelevant as the topics have been discussed elsewhere does not foster a good support system. The same applies to long serving members who feel that their own point of view is relevant. Does Susan tell them that "You posted your opinions elsewhere, now buzz off"
Look at Proposition 8 in California, now that's going to be a perpetual debate, but still a relevant one. I'm sure you guys will correct me as I'm not American, but didn't the California courts rule that Gay Marriage was legal but the decision was over turned by a simple majority of the population, thereby deigning the civil rights of a minority. Endless debate is a good bet on this one.
Which brings me back to the question "Who's rights matter most" I think that most TS tend to overreact. (I'll only talk on MtF) Lets face it during transition we need to blend in, be accepted as women we are,
not as TS. TS is a phase, a period of time that we need to complete our journeys. Yes there are going to be many many hurdles we have to negotiate including the successful navigation of the womens washrooms but it's still a phase. Granted some have more difficulty than others but none the less once transition is complete the problem disappears. If transition is done right, the vast majority will not have a problem with the WC.
Personally I don't think that it is right that rules, social norms or whatever be changed to accommodate the few TS out there who with in a couple of years will denying they were ever TS and are now simply women. Get on with your transition.
-={LR}=-
seriously gang, how does one post a pic? I have no clue.
Quote from: xsocialworker on June 23, 2009, 09:13:54 PM
seriously gang, how does one post a pic? I have no clue.
Photobucket
Quote from: xsocialworker on June 23, 2009, 09:13:54 PM
seriously gang, how does one post a pic? I have no clue.
Huh? Seriously gang what the heck does this have to do with this topic? I'm sure it's posted else where in the forums :(
Oh what the heck:
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,11002.0.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,11002.0.html)
It's a starting point.
-={LR}=-
Post Merge: June 23, 2009, 09:36:20 PM
Quote from: Sandy on June 23, 2009, 04:00:09 PM
It's not you that has to understand.
It's the rest of the world that has to grow up!
Yep using "Going Potty" Yep, who has to do the growing up again? Oh yes... the rest of the world.
Quote
I've been to a couple of gay/lesbian gala events and the restrooms were non-gendered. Boys and girls together in the same room at the same time going potty.
A very safe environment.
QuoteThe boys, if they were of a mind stood at the urinal. I mean come on, they had their backs to the world! Everyone else used the stalls. A guy went into the stall next to me. BFD... We came out at the same time and smiled at each other.
It was considered polite do "adjust" yourself or straighten your dress privately.
I guess this guideline was posted on the walls "
NOTICE - While you may urinate and defecate in front of each other we request that you adjust your dress privately"
QuoteOddly, I felt completely unthreatened.
And if you ever watched BSG you'll know that the bathrooms on a battle star were non-gendered.
Oddly, BSG is science fiction, not real.
-={LR}=-
Quote from: xsocialworker on June 23, 2009, 07:10:17 PM
Of course pitchers in the American League wear skirts cause they can throw at people without the fear of ever coming to bat themselves. American league pitchers are allowed to use the female bathroom in National League stadiums.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Quote from: Ladyrider on June 23, 2009, 09:06:47 PM
Hmmm! Now this has me wondering Buffy... When you say 95 % of the people here are immature, irrational, and irresponsible are you referring to the membership in general or just those who have posted in this topic? A bunch of BS if you ask me, but I know you didn't Buffy but what the heck debate is always good.
-={LR}=-
Well I never said anyone was immature, irrational and irresponsible, I was refering to the fact that on a forum full of people pumping themselves with hormones, trans activists and a community that generally feels isolated and stigmatized by society, it is fairly difficult to have a mature, rational debate about who should be allowed to use bathrooms.
It's kind of like asking Turkeys to vote on abolishing Christmas or July the 4th in the US.
Buffy
Quote from: Buffy on June 23, 2009, 10:20:45 PM
Well I never said anyone was immature, irrational and irresponsible, I was refering to the fact that on a forum full of people pumping themselves with hormones, trans activists and a community that generally feels isolated and stigmatized by society, it is fairly difficult to have a mature, rational debate about who should be allowed to use bathrooms.
It's kind of like asking Turkeys to vote on abolishing Christmas or July the 4th in the US.
Buffy
Would Turkeys really have such trouble abolishing Christmas? Well, at least we don't allow pigs to decide everything.
Turkeys would get rid of Thanksgiving in a New York second however.
Quote from: Buffy on June 23, 2009, 10:20:45 PM
Well I never said anyone was immature, irrational and irresponsible, I was refering to the fact that on a forum full of people pumping themselves with hormones, trans activists and a community that generally feels isolated and stigmatized by society, it is fairly difficult to have a mature, rational debate about who should be allowed to use bathrooms.
I have to admit that until that hormonal balance got adjusted some time ago I was of the opinion that no one should ever be allowed to use a bathroom! Nasty habit!! Worse than tobacco! :)
Virginia is smokin' a Cuban cigar and peeing in her own potty :P
Quote from: Ladyrider on June 23, 2009, 09:17:08 PM
Huh? Seriously gang what the heck does this have to do with this topic? I'm sure it's posted else where in the forums :(
Oh what the heck: SOME OF YOU HAVE USED THIS THREAD TO QUESTION IF I AM AFRAID TO POST A PIC
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,11002.0.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,11002.0.html)
It's a starting point.
-={LR}=-
Post Merge: June 23, 2009, 08:36:20 PM
Yep using "Going Potty" Yep, who has to do the growing up again? Oh yes... the rest of the world.
A very safe environment.
I guess this guideline was posted on the walls "NOTICE - While you may urinate and defecate in front of each other we request that you adjust your dress privately"
Oddly, BSG is science fiction, not real.
-={LR}=-
Post Merge: June 24, 2009, 08:49:35 AM
1) This is me (if you trust me)
2) Got to go the bathroom
Quote from: Ladyrider on June 23, 2009, 09:17:08 PM
I guess this guideline was posted on the walls "NOTICE - While you may urinate and defecate in front of each other we request that you adjust your dress privately"
-={LR}=-
Yeah, the same way they post notices on the wall about how to use a urinal... *ds*
-Sandy
Okay guys, seriously? Remember we are a support site, people shouldn't be pressured to post things they don't want to post.
Quote from: TamTam on June 24, 2009, 09:14:18 AM
Okay guys, seriously? Remember we are a support site, people shouldn't be pressured to post things they don't want to post.
I agree, Tam Tam, but perhaps, given the avatar, XSW was asking to be thrown into the briarpatch! :laugh: Nice piccie, XSW.
Ummmm, I'd have to say given the circumstances that I suppose you weren't just blowing smoke about "passing perfectly." :laugh:
If you felt forced, please feel free to let Tam or me know and we can take some sorta staff action. :laugh: Very nice.
Quote from: xsocialworker on June 24, 2009, 08:41:32 AM
Post Merge: June 24, 2009, 06:49:35 AM
1) This is me (if you trust me)
2) Got to go the bathroom
Why on earth would I not trust you? There are many reasons why people don't post pictures of them
self here, very legitimate reasons, I don't have a pic posted myself, but you probably noticed that. (Nice pic BTW)
Oh and enjoy your visit to the bathroom, I hope you got everything "Worked Out" so to speak :) Now the question that has to be asked is - Do you wipe from front to back or back to front? But that would be the subject of another topic. :)
And for Sandy what's *ds* ?
-=LR}=-
There is nothing mysterious about this. I had to find a pic which I took off a website of a support group that I used to run locally. I didn't know I could move it elsewhere until I right clicked on it.
Post Merge: June 24, 2009, 10:09:11 AM
1) I'm retired.
2) Just don't photoshop my face on a transformer
Lawlz, I win.
Nice pic there XSW.
Lawlz, I win.
We're sending you your prize by pony express.
Quote from: tekla on June 24, 2009, 12:42:33 PM
Lawlz, I win.
We're sending you your prize by pony express.
Weren't they by your place just last week?
Everyone learned a good lesson. The Pony Express doesn't handle fragile packages such as glass products very well.
Oddly enough I go past the western terminus of the pony express once a week or so. No horsies though, they only ran to Sacramento, after that it was put on a boat.
Did the ponies use the ponies restroom or the horsies restroom?
As I recall from my farm days they go where they stand. And a lot. Really, a lot. Impressive almost.
Quote from: TamTam on June 08, 2009, 06:39:47 PM
Well, here is my opinion on things, as a gg.
If someone walks into the bathroom who looks like, or is presenting as female, I'm perfectly comfortable. It's not the genitals that bother me really, it's the presentation. As long as you're somewhere on some kind of female spectrum, I'm not uncomfortable.
However, one time I was using a gender neutral bathroom with stalls, and a man walked in and used the stall next to me. [I knew it was a man because I heard him speaking as he walked in, and then I saw his sneakers and the bottom of his pants and he peed standing up.] I felt very uncomfortable. And I actually thought about why I felt so uncomfortable, as I was sitting there [I waited for him to leave because it would have been really awkward to wash my hands next to him. I didn't know if he even knew I was there.]. It wasn't something I would have expected to bother me so much.
I came to the conclusion that it was the fact that I was not used to being in that situation and it made me feel, instinctively, a little unsafe. Women are very vulnerable in public bathrooms. "Don't go to the bathroom by yourself because a creepster might hit you over the head and rape you or peek under the door at you." It's pounded into our heads so we can be a little paranoid. But I didn't get upset because it was a gender neutral bathroom. I had to suck it up, there was nothing I had the right to even complain about.
Those are my thoughts on the matter. :)
Brace Yourselves:
Profound perceptual paradigm shifts CAN occur in the mere "blink of an eye."Consider this: Yours truly is a MTF Transsexual who is in therapy but has not yet begun HRT. Hence, she still presents as a genetic guy. So, what does that have to do with this thread? Just this:
I've sunbathed, swam, showered ... and USED RESTROOMS ... with hundreds (thousands on major holidays) of people of mixed biological sex (in bascially equal proportions) all day long, NEARLY EVERYBODY WAS COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY NUDE, ... and NOBODY was upset, freaked or concerned?Think I'm kidding? I'm not. I live in Metro Tampa Florida, USA. Rather nearby in Pasco County, we have three major clothing-optional resorts. I regularly go to the very best of the batch, Caliente (Check out the website www.CalienteResorts.com (http://www.calienteresorts.com) and especially click on the TAMPA icon that you'll see there. Also, the images on that website WILL change if you just wait a few seconds in order for them to change.) These people who go there are from all over the world right out of the general population.
I want you to REALLY think about that and what it means. It means that by making a mere decision, which takes only a split second, we can alleviate profound societal conditioning, profound societal taboos and profound societal no-nos. Yes, I know: Easy to say. Hard to do.
The key? Education. The transpeople who are really out there non-stealth and unashamed (Christine Jorgensen from the 1950s, Renee Richards from the 1970s, Donna Rose in the 2000s) are the bellwether teachers who are leading the way to opening the minds of the public.
Now, I know that "The Bathroom Issue" discussed on this thread will not magically transmogrify into mere insignificance due to mass public acceptance anytime soon. The quote from TamTam above states exactly why. However, I predict that in the next few decades, things are going to ease up TREMENDOUSLY regarding this issue in particular and trans issues in general. Why? Again, because of those leading-edge transpeople who are educating the general populace. I offer a hale and hearty salute to every one of you.
Think it can't happen that fast or easily? Yours truly is age 53.5. I can tell you for a definite fact that President Barak Obama would not have had a snowball's chance in hell of even being nominated for President, let alone being elected, in my younger years. Trust me, the anti-black prejudice was as strong as the anti-trans prejudice. We older gals here remember the 1960s race riots, the Deep South rednecks, the Northern bohunks. Oh, yes. We've seen miracles happen. Obama as President proves it.
There IS hope on this issue ... TREMENDOUS hope! Hugs! :)
Post Merge: June 25, 2009, 06:20:10 AM
The mind-blower's mind-blower:Considering the comment just above, imagine undergoing the gradual physical effects of HRT ... right out in such a venue ... as naked as the minute you were born ... for all to see and contemplate. Ain't THAT some crap? Takes transition, passing and presenting many quantum jumps beyond the norm, eh wot? When I told this to my therapist, this blew even her mind, and she's a nationally-recognized expert in transsexual issues whose practice is soley dedicated to counseling transpeople, and she's been doing that for 25+ years! She just laughed out loud and took a few seconds to regain her composure!
Honeys, yours truly is gonna do that doo-doo! Wish me luck! I'm gonna need it! "Holy Crap, Marge! Look! It's The Caliente ->-bleeped-<-!"
Hugs! ::)
Well, that's fine if you want to be a nudist.
I don't want to see naked men, heck I don't even want to see men without their shirts on.
I don't want to use a restroom with urinals in it.
I don't want to see a man handling his genitals even if his back is towards me.
If there were unisex restrooms with only stalls in it, with floor to ceiling dividers that might be one thing.
Even so, a women's room is a place for fixing makeup and hair.
You wouldn't do that at a restaurant table, why would you do it in front of strange men?
So, put me down as a firm supporter of gendered restrooms.
I'll leave the issue of who is allowed in which to braver souls.
I know the therapist from the post about going nude in Pasco Co. She is a fantastic person . Sorry, but I never got to make it there and doubt I will. But have a ball.
Quote from: Renate on June 25, 2009, 07:19:33 PM
Well, that's fine if you want to be a nudist.
I don't want to see naked men, heck I don't even want to see men without their shirts on.
I don't want to use a restroom with urinals in it.
I don't want to see a man handling his genitals even if his back is towards me.
If there were unisex restrooms with only stalls in it, with floor to ceiling dividers that might be one thing.
Even so, a women's room is a place for fixing makeup and hair.
You wouldn't do that at a restaurant table, why would you do it in front of strange men?
So, put me down as a firm supporter of gendered restrooms.
I'll leave the issue of who is allowed in which to braver souls.
Renate:
Know what? I TOTALLY agree with you! First, I tolerate the guys there because I have no choice. Second, Caliente's restrooms ARE separate. In fact, Paradise Lakes and Lake Como's restrooms are also separate. These are the three major Pasco County C.O. resorts.
The point you are making is a matter of PRIVACY! And, yes, I agree with you all the way. I really do. Thanks for commenting, and hugs! :)
Post Merge: June 26, 2009, 06:41:42 AM
Quote from: xsocialworker on June 25, 2009, 07:45:51 PM
I know the therapist from the post about going nude in Pasco Co. She is a fantastic person . Sorry, but I never got to make it there and doubt I will. But have a ball.
She IS awesome, isn't she? Thanks for your kind comments! Hugs! :)
This post seems to never end. But-----------if we are discussing therapy------as far as I know,if you are transitioning by the Benjamin Standards, you are expected to live for one year as your destination gender. I believe that means using the restroom that corresponds to your presentation. When I went F/T on March 15, 2001, I never entered a men's room again. I felt to do so would be hedging my bets.
PS-----That super therapist has a bi-weekly support group in her area.
Quote from: xsocialworker on June 26, 2009, 09:32:35 AM
This post seems to never end. But-----------if we are discussing therapy------as far as I know,if you are transitioning by the Benjamin Standards, you are expected to live for one year as your destination gender. I believe that means using the restroom that corresponds to your presentation. When I went F/T on March 15, 2001, I never entered a men's room again. I felt to do so would be hedging my bets.
PS-----That super therapist has a bi-weekly support group in her area.
To xsocialworker:
Hi, Hon! Yes, sigh, this post DOES seem to go on and on; you're right. Like you, when I finally DO go F/T, I plan to never enter a men's restroom again for the reason you stated. Also, yes, said therapist DOES have said support groups. She's not yet invited me to them, but I'm not worried about that. I'm not really a "group type" person and am, obviously, more of a maverick.
Actually, I'll see her again this upcoming Monday for another therapy session! She's mentioned to me about starting hair-removal procedures before starting hormone replacement therapy, SOOO, I'm doing that and anticipating the latter!
Thanks for your kind comments! May peace and happiness be yours! Hugs! :)
Tell her the EX-Social Worker said hello. She should know who that is. We worked for the same company for many years.
Post Merge: June 27, 2009, 07:53:58 AM
Mention the "IDES OF MARCH"
Quote from: xsocialworker on June 27, 2009, 07:51:49 AM
Tell her the EX-Social Worker said hello. She should know who that is. We worked for the same company for many years.
Post Merge: June 27, 2009, 07:53:58 AM
Mention the "IDES OF MARCH"
Consider it a "done deal," Hon. She'll be very happy to know how well-regarded she is! Hugs! :)