Quote from: Dodie on May 11, 2015, 04:34:23 PM
I think FFS if one can afford should not be done before 12 months of therapy.. 

You are right on this... There were not so few cases of FFS regret, where people had too much money available, and went to have FFS, before even thinking through everything. But a FFS regret isn't such a bad thing, as SRS regret would potentially be.

Short term, I really just want my forehead botoxed.

Longer term, sure, I could probably use a few goes with the chisel.

Quote from: Eva on May 11, 2015, 05:12:30 PM...In my mind though Id want to do everything I could to give myself a chance at an easier life as a woman before SRS and possibly living to regret it only because the rest of the world didn't see me as a woman....

I am sure if one stood naked in front of them (world) post-op they would see a woman.  Lots of different looking women out there.  I need work but can hold my own among homely cis-woman.

What has stood out most from a young age is the optional equipment installed in error on my body. As unpleasant as it sounds we are identified male/female at birth by what's between our legs and in some cases under the same criteria when we die.  I was born wrong sure don't want to die that way.

Yes passing is important but does that mean those who can't pass give up on SRS or just live as male?  Even not so attractive females can find love and or engage in the exchange of pleasures.

Being a woman to me means 'be a woman' last time I checked that did not include having a penis.
Harsh but that's what my 'Real Life Experience/Test' has taught me.

SRS first everything else can wait!

Since you said first I'm assuming its basically what you can afford before moving on to another procedure some time down the road after you saved up for whatever the next thing is and that there is no limit on the number of procedures. 

I said "other" only because you have several procedures broken out into separate categories that are often done together (forehead contouring/brow lift and hairline advance) for virtually the same price as they all require the same cut at the same location doing them separately would require would be fine is you were only doing one or two of the procedures but if your planning on doing them all then they should be done together.

if I was only able to get one procedure (knowing no others were to follow) it would be SRS and if it were two procedures I would add VFS as well and everything after that is icing on the cake to me.

 I don't see the sequencing of surgeries as the same as their ultimate importance.  In any event, it's unfortunate that only genital surgery is termed as gender confirming or sex reassignment.  The truth is that FFS can be every bit as gender confirming as SRS.  Insinuations that people who value FFS are somehow less authentic or are being superficial is unnecessary and unkind. Looking to motivation is a better way to approach it. 

Women may not have penises, but neither do they have a man's skeletal structure. Whether, and how much of a confirmation issue that is for any given individual is up to them. 

All that said, I wonder why anyone who thinks they are transsexual would not want SRS.  AND FFS.

Quote from: LeaP on May 11, 2015, 06:39:23 PM
...All that said, I wonder why anyone who thinks they are transsexual would not want SRS.  AND FFS.

OK, sign me up for that too but this transition thing is getting really expensive!

I leave my age and gender confirmation to Microsoft.  Using only a head shot (picture) they determined I look female...enough.  Wow!, no expensive FFS needed.  Anyone else ever try their How-Old website?  Every picture I have tested after starting my transition pegs me as female.  Photos taken prior show as male 

Quote from: LeaP on May 11, 2015, 06:39:23 PM
All that said, I wonder why anyone who thinks they are transsexual would not want SRS.  AND FFS.

Apparently there are some transgender people who decide to have SRS... And there are transsexual people who do not have much genital dysphoria, or at all, and would never have genital surgery. Despite me having extreme no-touch level of genital dysphoria, I understand how some other transsexual woman might feel differently towards their genital parts, not being really bothered by it. It's harder for me to understand how some transsexual women are not bothered by having prominent brow bossing, masculine orbital rims and consequently masculine facial expression... or really masculine nose, or any other facial gender markers, which literally effects everyday life and interactions with other people. Where as SRS don't. Other than couple doctors noone ever saw my genitals, and noone ever will until after I have them rearranged.

No rush for SRS here.

That's partly because I identify as transsexual, more than I do as female. My identity has continued to evolve during transition.

Accepting myself as transsexual - no more and no less - has worked for me. I no longer have the stress of trying to be 100% female.

I have found myself feeling comfortable at last - being publicly and for all purposes, transsexual. The GD seems to be in total remission.
---

So, I don't think the aspiration to be 100% a preferred gender, is crucial to identifying as transsexual.

When I am asked, I simply define transsexualism as one taking real steps to bring what they are, more into line with who they are. It is all done to improve one's quality of life.

---
I am unsure if SRS will add that much more to my quality of life, than transitioning has already.

So, until how I feel about it changes, SRS is on hold.

Quote from: OOAnne on May 11, 2015, 05:59:44 PM
I am sure if one stood naked in front of them (world) post-op they would see a woman.  Lots of different looking women out there.  I need work but can hold my own among homely cis-woman.

What has stood out most from a young age is the optional equipment installed in error on my body. As unpleasant as it sounds we are identified male/female at birth by what's between our legs and in some cases under the same criteria when we die.  I was born wrong sure don't want to die that way.

Yes passing is important but does that mean those who can't pass give up on SRS or just live as male?  Even not so attractive females can find love and or engage in the exchange of pleasures.

Being a woman to me means 'be a woman' last time I checked that did not include having a penis.
Harsh but that's what my 'Real Life Experience/Test' has taught me.

SRS first everything else can wait!

Oh believe me I agree with you, I guess I should have clarified a few things... First of all I had VFS and FFS at 7 and 10 months into HRT and about a year and a half into RLE "officially"... Since Im fortunate to have the $$$ and I couldn't meet the requirements of the SOC for SRS anyway It made sense to do things the way I have

BUT even if I could have done SRS first I doubt I would have changed much, I just didn't feel ready yet... I do now

Quote from: SarahBoo on May 11, 2015, 08:11:01 PM
No rush for SRS here.

That's partly because I identify as transsexual, more than I do as female. My identity has continued to evolve during transition.

Accepting myself as transsexual - no more and no less - has worked for me. I no longer have the stress of trying to be 100% female.

I have found myself feeling comfortable at last - being publicly and for all purposes, transsexual. The GD seems to be in total remission.
---

So, I don't think the aspiration to be 100% a preferred gender, is crucial to identifying as transsexual.

When I am asked, I simply define transsexualism as one taking real steps to bring what they are, more into line with who they are. It is all done to improve one's quality of life.

---
I am unsure if SRS will add that much more to my quality of life, than transitioning has already.

So, until how I feel about it changes, SRS is on hold.

wow SarahBoo..we do think alike Although I am just beginning my transition, I have no inclination towards SRS. But I do appreciate those who and those who do not. I selected Rhino, just because it IS my next step..got an appointment next week to talk to the doc. Mine though is a medical surgery, so will have to ask if some aesthetic work can be done as well. If I can vote twice I will go back and select electrolysis since that on my list in this time before I start HRT.

Quote from: Marly on May 11, 2015, 08:26:55 PM
wow SarahBoo..we do think alike Although I am just beginning my transition, I have no inclination towards SRS. But I do appreciate those who and those who do not. ...

I just think we should be kind to ourselves, above all else. And no less, patient and forgiving toward others.

If one can be relaxed about transition, that is a great position to enjoy every day of the ride, every little thing about it :~)

Quote from: LeaP on May 11, 2015, 06:39:23 PM

All that said, I wonder why anyone who thinks they are transsexual would not want SRS.  AND FFS.

It's because genitals do not determine gender. Isn't that the whole argument we go telling the world why we are who we are?

Also, you're not going to strip down naked in front of the world. They're going to see your face, your figure, your breasts (covered by your clothing) and hear your voice. This is why genital surgery isn't so important for a lot of people. Then there is maintenance, pain and fear of complications. Cis women do not have to dilate. That is one of the things that really scares me that I'll have to dilate every day for life just in case I can't find a partner who will naturally dilate me.

As for FFS, hormones can do so much that many people don't need FFS to pass. I don't plan on FFS unless I have real problems passing (and I don't.) it's also risky and painful.

Quote from: SarahBoo on May 11, 2015, 05:42:27 PM
Short term, I really just want my forehead botoxed.

Longer term, sure, I could probably use a few goes with the chisel.

How well do you think botox would work for that? From what I ever see in the mirror, the muscles in the forehead, especially around the brows, really give a lot away, expressions, grinning in anger, surprise, it reveals a lot... from my understanding botox basically relaxes the muscles... might that be true and effect that?

Quote from: Blush on May 11, 2015, 09:49:30 PM
How well do you think botox would work for that? From what I ever see in the mirror, the muscles in the forehead, especially around the brows, really give a lot away, expressions, grinning in anger, surprise, it reveals a lot... from my understanding botox basically relaxes the muscles... might that be true and effect that?

Wrinkles, in my case. If I get that sorted out it will draw attention away from the area in general. I'm not hoping for it to make changes to the actual shape of my head.

dunno why per say, but the first one on my list is Breast implants. the size I want and the surgeon I want to have mine done by, it cost more than the GRS. I don't want full dept GRS, I plan on having it 'clear cut' down there, and have abit of 'cosmetic' rearranging.

I wish I could afford laser hair removal, and even better FFS

Quote from: iKate on May 11, 2015, 08:51:44 PM
It's because genitals do not determine gender. Isn't that the whole argument we go telling the world why we are who we are?

I never said they did.  In fact, I rarely talk about gender per se.  Gender truly may be viewed as a spectrum (alternatively a matrix, or even a mess ...). 

By contrast, being cross-sex identified (or transsexual) reduces to a binary concept and solution.  It isn't purely so from a biological standpoint, but it manifests in binary identification and a drive to binary living.  One may be cross-sexed, have gender issues, both, or neither.  As my self-understanding clarified, I found myself strongly cross-sex identified and what I thought were gender issues just dissipated.  The pathological en-femme presentation drive that was masking my real issue melted away under the influence of hormones, despite a heightened need to resolve my physical conflict.  A common occurrence, as you likely know.  I rarely dress anymore, and when I do, I don't really think much of it one way or another.  No girly needs, no undue concerns about attractiveness, etc.  At this point, the physical changes are just work to do and then it's get on with life.  The identity issue is over already.  Social transition will add nothing more in that regard (only - trust me, I'm not minimizing its importance in other ways).  I don't particularly care about gender any longer except as an interesting socio-political concept.

If you accept, as I do, that the essence of transsexuality is conflict between body and mind, then forgoing available corrections to fix that problem - by choice - seems to point at either other motivations for transition, or perhaps other factors overriding intensity.  Mind you, I'm not judging anyone's motives for transition in a qualitative sense.  It is also true that many cannot pursue surgeries for any number of reasons.  Different issue entirely.  My comment was focused on those who claim a mind/body issue - to be cross-sex identified, but then find that social transition (and perhaps hormones) resolve that issue.  I'm happy for anyone who can resolve their gender problem in the least invasive way, of course, but it's a a non-sequitur as it relates to the core issue underlying transsexuality.  A gender problem is eminently resolvable by transition alone.  Cross-SEX identification is not.

My statement on SRS AND FFS was somewhat exaggerated for effect, of course.  It presumes a conflict over one's facial structure, for example, and not everyone has either the conflict or even a facial structure issue, neutrally considered.  There are plenty of men with facial structure and features that are feminine or neotenic, which is perceived as much the same.  The ones I find curious are those with decidedly masculine facial hard tissue structures that (again) choose not to do anything about it, i.e., would not do anything even if the means were at hand, nothing preventing it medically, etc.  It flies in the face (!) of the nominal conflict. 

I should also say that I agree with the comment about hormones taking care of certain issues, at least for some.  I've been told I don't need FFS by several people I trust.  I pretty much pass when dressed despite the rarity of being gendered female when not.  I don't believe them, of course, but that's on me.  I do see the changes that hormones have wrought on my face.

Lets please keep this topic civil and back on the topic at hand. The reasons why others need to follow through with gender confirming surgery or other feminization surgeries, transsexualism are discussions that belong in other topics. Thanks
Mariah

Quote from: Dodie on May 11, 2015, 04:34:23 PM
I think the one year is good enough.. seriously.. by then you know.  I have been full time 5 months.. and admit being a woman is a pain.  But love it.. I did have FFS after 12 months of HRt.. not sure that was smart.. I can put my hair up in a hat, not wear makeup and still not pass as a guy.. so I am screwed if I change my mind.  I think FFS if one can afford should not be done before 12 months of therapy..  I am having GRS after one year full time and can't wait.. its what I wanted all my life.. but I know its not right for everyone.. transition is hard.. so damn hard.

Well when I'll get my FFS I'll have been around 9 months on HRT, but after 2 years on AA the body is not too masculine. If you think FFS at 12 month on HRT, that makes me even less smart that you.

Maybe some will say it's too early, as many on the forum are opposed to FFS, but I absolutely want to be perceived as a woman, not as somebody who pretends to be a woman, and that people may laugh at or physically attack. It's not just who I know I am, but also who they see I am.

Maybe some other girls here, with thicker skin or better genetics, can transition then have FFS. I do admire and respect that, but I just can't envision transitioning looking the way I look. Some things are physically possible to those girls gifted with a sweet looking face, some are not to the likes of me, even if we try to be as pretty as possible.

That's because there are BIG BONES inside our SKULL. We can't wish them away with makeup!

You say I'm screwed if I change my mind? My mind won't change. It's my body that's screwed and needs to change to match me.

Quote from: mmmmm on May 11, 2015, 05:31:58 PM
You are right on this... There were not so few cases of FFS regret, where people had too much money available, and went to have FFS, before even thinking through everything. But a FFS regret isn't such a bad thing, as SRS regret would potentially be.

FFS regret, you mean they didn't chose the right surgeon and the result was not female enough?

I just can't imagine anything else. I mean, finally being yourself, not just for yourself but for everyone to see. Are there messages about that on the board? I could't imagine that being less than 1%, as for the transition regrets