Susan's Place Transgender Resources

So, I thought I will start a little thread now to ask questions and describe what I am doing to get my voice into shape.
As a background, I transitioned at age 23 that was 15 years ago. I did the Melanie Anne Phillips sort of voice training back then and managed to get my voice from the old male voice to a more feminine range that passed rather ok for a while. With aging I lost some of that good voice until recently I keep getting asked about the voice and people even misgendering me, so I know I have to do something. Also I have a sore throat and a bit of pain most of the time now for many months to almost 2 years. My fear is that I damaged my voice with doing a too high pitched voice for so long.
My original speaking frequency was at 100 Hz and I tried to record that now but it took me forever to get back down there and it hurt - so I definitely did some permanent change to my voice with voice training alone. Just it is not enough, I got up to 140-160 Hz speaking range, which still is in the male range, maybe androgynous. I am not sure about resonance, I think I am also sort of halfway there in that aspect.
The 160 Hz is comfortable for me now, but not good. going higher makes me loose voice control (pitch variations, loudness,...).

So I decided on some steps to do:
Next week I will be at a voice clinic to check my voice box, vocal cords, and speaking generally, also probably frequency range (i will see if I can and have to use the old oice as well). So I will know my base parameters then, learn about flaws in my speaking and if my voice was damaged.

In the same week I will start voice training to get rid of the flaws and maybe also start to correct any damage that may be there.

Then in like half a year or so I will have a decision point - whether voice therapy rally helped me enough or did not get the results I need. At that point I will decide if I can avoid getting voice surgery or not - or if I want it anyways. I am already saving up money just in case I need it for that.
In case I want or need voice surgery (very likely!!) the next point is where I will have a question that maybe someone can answer.

I hear all the great experiences from Yeson but wonder if it would work on me as I obviously am starting very low originally though higher in the now permanently changed voice. To get from 100 Hz up to 200 Hz i need a lot of work done there. And the resonances will not change so there may be a mismatch then with pitch and resonance that I may not be able to control if it affects resonances that I need to use to speak loud.
The other option is Dr Thomas but his method is so vastly invasive and leaves a scar on the neck that I am worried about going there. It also is more expensive and the website has warnings on it saying that there is a substantial risk of loosing voice quality, loudness and more. On the other hand I heard a good example of it and a friend of mine phoned with two of his patients and they have great voices - he does correct resonance as well as I understand it and thus no mismatch can occur. I guess his method would not care if I start that low as it is a complete reconstruction of the voice box anyways. Pkus no resonance control is needed afterwards.

What do you think - is Yeson or Thomas the better choice for a 100 Hz starting voice? I would prefer Yeson, but if he has to do a 50% suture and I still have issues with resonance I would have to think. Thomas seems more risky in general though and more invasive but maybe thats needed for such a low starting voice?

Anyways. I will keep you updated if you are interested and if someone has good tipps, please chip in :)

As someone with one paralyzed vocal cord that only functions because of an implant (and is therefore not capable of being retrained - training implies neuro-muscular response), I've been looking at voice surgery for some time.

My original inclination was to go with Dr. Thomas in Portland, despite the invasiveness of the procedure and the less than perfect success rate. Even with all that, he seems to have a higher than typical success rate for voice surgery so he seemed to be the "best" of a bad set of choices.

Then I began to learn about Yeson, right here at Susans. After listening to numerous women's before and after voices, I am extremely encouraged.

One thing I've been able to do fairly successfully is remove most of the male resonance from my voice. This alone raised pitch a small amount and that pitch increase, plus my age, has let me pass in many situations so far using my voice as-is.

But it's clearly not an ideal voice. I've already written to Yeson and they indicated that yes, they can work with my medical situation. Now I am not yet prepared to go to Korea for this surgery as I have a couple additional milestones before going full time next year, and then the first thing I'll do after full time is go for voice surgery.

So my question to you would be, have you practiced just removing male resonance from the voice, ignoring pitch entirely for now? Because, and this is just a guess, even with a 100 Hz starting voice, working to remove male resonance may get you to 110-120 Hz, and then Yeson, with an average 75Hz increase would put you squarely in the lower female range at 185-195.

Note: For some beautiful lower female voices, listen to Diana Krall or Jane Monheit. You can find their videos on YouTube. Both are modern jazz singers.

My own voice, with male resonance suppressed, is 145-160 Hz. Yeson said because of the implant, and assuming they can perform the surgery even after the exam, that I ought to expect about 50Hz increase. That would be more than enough for me.

My final thought to you is that I understand the Yeson procedure is not just non-invasive but also reversible. So in the worst case, you could still go to Dr. Thomas. But personally, I doubt you're going to need it if you go to Yeson.

LizMarie, I'm not sure Yeson's procedure is reversible. They permanently remove a mucus membrane and some vocal fold tissue before suturing them together. It's not as if they just suture them up in their original state and could just remove the suture to reverse it. I may be mistaken, but I've heard this rumor a couple of times now and it needs to be verified before spreading too much. I can ask Dr. Kim during my follow-up consultation on Tuesday.

anjaq, when Dr. Kim was explaining the procedure and results to me he went over the fact that the results are limited to what he has to work with in the beginning. Someone who starts at 70Hz could only expect to get up to 155Hz for example. However, starting at 100Hz means you'd be at 175Hz, which is definitely above the male range and close enough to the female low range that I wouldn't expect there to be a problem really. Even so, you could even use a tiny bit of effort to just raise it a little higher, which would be a lot easier starting from 175Hz and trying to go to 200Hz then going from 100Hz and trying to go to 200Hz.

Basically, to me the surgery makes sense no matter where your starting frequency is since in the end you'll still potentially have to work on raising the pitch if you start with a lower frequency, but after the surgery it takes less work to get up to the higher frequencies. Also, resonance is something you have to work on with or without surgery (if going with Yeson) so that cancels out in either case too, although from the sound of it it falls into place easier after the surgery.

Obviously for me I would recommend Yeson due to the minimally-invasive nature of the procedure and the consistently good results I've heard (and hope to be a part of in a couple weeks!).

Thank you for that clarification, Sarah!

Even if it is not reversible, Yeson still seems like the far better option, at least to me with my condition.

I know of one person who has done a Y suture and it was for undisclosed reasons not successful (not with Yeson AFAIK). This was done after a VFS involving tensioning of the vocal cords, also not successful. She then went to Dr Thomas to do the invasive method and got decent results, so that option is possible, but she might have gotten better results if she had no previous VFS.

I have done some voice training off Melanie Anne Philips voice training tapes back in 1998 and had rather ok success removing a lot of the male resonance. It did in fact increase, as you said, Liz, my pitch by about 30-40 Hz at the low end and actually about 50 Hz on average with some increased pitch control. So if I speak at my regular voice now, I cannot go down to 100 Hz but only to about 130 Hz due to these changes. Sadly my resonance control is not perfect. It is a huge difference from the pre-everything voice.
Now I will do the striptease as this is of course the topic of this thread and give you audio.
Compare these two and you will see what I am saying up there.

This is my best approximation of my old voice. It took me like 10 minutes to actually get there. I had to drop resonance control and pitch and this was a huge psychological barrier for me plus it is actuall ypainful to speak that way. When I did this recordeing, afterwards I could not talk for a day because I had throat pain, that was probably because of an infection though. http://vocaroo.com/i/s09LNxeumIQA

And this is my rather relaxed regular speaking voice now. It is averaging actually about 160 Hz in this recording but the range is between 140 Hz in some passages to 180 Hz in others which is because I do actually use more of the pitch range now than I would have done in the old days 15 years ago. This voice by the way usually passes rather ok if given visual clues, so I get sirred on the phone, I get kids saying "but you speak like a boy" or "you are a boy!"-"Why do you think that?"-"Because you sound like a boy!"  but most people just assume I do have some voice issue maybe and dont ask too much, except if they miss visual clues again in bad light for example or if I am tired and the range then drops from 140-180 to 130-160 or even gets more monotonous at 130-140. http://vocaroo.com/i/s13PtrJOLUp8

I guess what I would like is to get up to like 190 or 200 Hz with as much effort as i am doing now to control resonance anyways - which is why I somehow hope that a VFS could bring the 100 Hz that I am already adding 30-50 with resonance control to 175 base frequency to which I would then hope to add again 30-50 Hz with resonance control and be at 200. I dont know if that makes sense though or if that increase by resonance control would go away or how that works anyways.

Next week I have my consultation to check out if maybe some of the resonance issues I still have are from damage at the vocal cords and I will also have my first voice training session hopefully (or rather the intro session) and check if I can get resonance doen better and improve my speaking to make it less straineous, which sadly it is now. Also it is rather limited in volume now and has been in the past years, so I guess I have the same issue already that others do have post VFS and that only can be corrected with training , I guess.

Alot of improvment anjaq....I think you sound good! I was tempted to make recording so I did lol can I have an honest opinion

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0k0hhUvzPCu

Yes, when I listen to these own recordings of mine I am always startled at how different it sounds. Havent heard that old voice in such a long time. I think the present voice is not really bad but it gets me in situations at times and I am a bit afraid that doing what I do may cause some damage. Also I somehow feel an internal mismatch - if I look into the mirror and speak, I think the voice and the image just dont match in my mind. Plus as I said in bad situations (actually not bad in terms of living but bad in terms of voice passing - like being actually really relaxed or having fun drinking with friends or doing sports) the F0 drops to 130 Hz for some passages which is quite exotic, gets noticed, people start to look for other clues and pick up some like my broad shoulders or some clues in my face. Then they ask odd questions. And if they dont have good visual clues to go by (only campfire or candles as a light source) I am actually sirred in person (not on the phone) though this is really really rare.
Now I guess I have two worries about the surgery (given that there are no complications and such). Either it does not change anything as I already am not using the 100-140 Hz range regularly and often not even the 140-150 Hz range. Or - and this may sound strange - that I get too high up in pitch and end up with something like 240 Hz (e.g. 100 Hz base + 80 Hz from Yeson + 60 Hz from my own resonance control). This would be a mismatch to my body as well, as I am not petite but rather big in stature (not tall), 100 kg and aged nearing 40 - and I am German ;) .

Delani - the audio quality of the recording is really awful , sadly. I think it sounds all right and female though. I think I heard occasionally a bit of a drop in pitch and resonance but that is still fine I believe. How hard are you trying for it? I was expecting a different voice now given your description of your condition of a paralyzed vocal cord - apparently it does not affect your voice all that much? Edit: Sorry! - 3am tiredness made me confuse Liz and Delani. My apologies  :angel:

Quote from: anjaq on November 15, 2013, 08:01:22 PM
Yes, when I listen to these own recordings of mine I am always startled at how different it sounds. Havent heard that old voice in such a long time. I think the present voice is not really bad but it gets me in situations at times and I am a bit afraid that doing what I do may cause some damage. Also I somehow feel an internal mismatch - if I look into the mirror and speak, I think the voice and the image just dont match in my mind. Plus as I said in bad situations (actually not bad in terms of living but bad in terms of voice passing - like being actually really relaxed or having fun drinking with friends or doing sports) the F0 drops to 130 Hz for some passages which is quite exotic, gets noticed, people start to look for other clues and pick up some like my broad shoulders or some clues in my face. Then they ask odd questions. And if they dont have good visual clues to go by (only campfire or candles as a light source) I am actually sirred in person (not on the phone) though this is really really rare.
Now I guess I have two worries about the surgery (given that there are no complications and such). Either it does not change anything as I already am not using the 100-140 Hz range regularly and often not even the 140-150 Hz range. Or - and this may sound strange - that I get too high up in pitch and end up with something like 240 Hz (e.g. 100 Hz base + 80 Hz from Yeson + 60 Hz from my own resonance control). This would be a mismatch to my body as well, as I am not petite but rather big in stature (not tall), 100 kg and aged nearing 40 - and I am German ;) .

Delani - the audio quality of the recording is really awful , sadly. I think it sounds all right and female though. I think I heard occasionally a bit of a drop in pitch and resonance but that is still fine I believe. How hard are you trying for it? I was expecting a different voice now given your description of your condition of a paralyzed vocal cord - apparently it does not affect your voice all that much?

I don't have paralyzed vocal cord  ??? And Im not trying too hard but I just can't stay in that range for too long lol

Oh I am sorry - I am tired. It is 3 am here now. I was thinking that was a reply from Liz. I am so sorry!. Please ignore this, if you want delete your reply, I corrected my post above already. I need to sleep! ;)

Quote from: anjaq on November 15, 2013, 08:07:18 PM
Oh I am sorry - I am tired. It is 3 am here now. I was thinking that was a reply from Liz. I am so sorry!. Please ignore this, if you want delete your reply, I corrected my post above already. I need to sleep! ;)

lol it's ok no harm done

@anjaq That's definitely a big difference between the voices. Your female voice is good, but I do sense that resonance can still be improved a tad. Frequency sounds fine and with a little more resonance control I think it would sound great.

@delani As anjaq says the quality makes it hard to fully critique, but even with that I think it sounds really good. Resonance sounds good. The frequency is a tad low, but not enough for me to gender the voice as male. If you could get a better recording we'd be able to give a better critique.

Quote from: SarahR on November 15, 2013, 08:47:04 PM
@anjaq That's definitely a big difference between the voices. Your female voice is good, but I do sense that resonance can still be improved a tad. Frequency sounds fine and with a little more resonance control I think it would sound great.

@delani As anjaq says the quality makes it hard to fully critique, but even with that I think it sounds really good. Resonance sounds good. The frequency is a tad low, but not enough for me to gender the voice as male. If you could get a better recording we'd be able to give a better critique.

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0amUIffTOts

here's another i hope the quality is better its sounds ok on my end im not quite sure, but i hope it's good

That's a little better. I stick to my initial assessment that it sounds female to me already. I'm sure there would be some things you could improve like maybe a slightly higher frequency with voice therapy, but if it's not hard to do that voice, you can use it in public, and doesn't cause you any dysphoria then I would say you're good to go without VFS.

For me it was all about consistency and usability. I can have a passable voice, I just can't use it in public. I would always go back down to a lower frequency or fluctuate all over the place. Plus, I can't relate to my "feminine" voice. It doesn't sound like me, naturally, eapecially since I know that I'm forcing it like that. Those are the reasons I did VFS. If these issues don't happen for you then your set with a solid passable voice in my opinion.

Ok, I mentioned that if I am not fully aware of my voice like if I am relaxed or drunk or sleepy it drops. So I decided to make a short clip more or less shortly after waking up and brushing my teeth, not really fully in daytime mode. The F0 is at 130 Hz and the resonance is worse than in the daytime recording. http://vocaroo.com/i/s0OuifonFrii

I mentioned that I will get voice training soon, next week I have an appointment and We will discuss some stuff. I think to get resonance down too much is also not good as it sounds too breathy or overly soft in the opinion of my friends (she said that when I control resonance really a lot more, I am doing something that she knows from women who are flirting or trying to calm someone - doing a very soft voice for that occasion). But we will see what voice training will give me and how that goes. I will wait and see how things sound like with a good resonance control that is also possible to do without hurting my throat, which is another issue I have now - if I talk a lot in the daytime voice in the last post, I need to drink a lot, use these candys against coughing and still get a bit of a sore throat at the end of the day. So I am doing something wrong. This gets worse if I try on a day to push the F0 to >170.
The reasoning is that I need good resonance control anyways and that cannot be improved by surgery so I better get that down first. I think I do a lot (compared to the old voice) already but may be improved further. If doing that part which is in any case needed and the pitch increases together with that to a level that it sounds female already, then there is no real need for surgery as I would not have to watch the F0 while speaking but rather the resonance which I would have to do in any case. This is actually what a lot of people tell me - if you get resonance under control, the voice will be female no matter what you do with pitch. I am not sure this applies to something like these early morning 130 Hz issues or the passages in my daytime voice that go to 140 Hz. This is pretty far out for women and while some may find it fascinating and even erotic, others will ask questions or use it as a hint to look for clues. Pitch is secondary to resonance, I am told (though that study I linked in the subforum actually says otherwise!) but it is not without importance.

So Sarah, you think the daytime voice I do above would with a bit more resonance control actually work? I dont really think so, its very deep and unusual for a womans voice. How did that play out for you - you used resonance control really well before you had VFS, was that not enough? Did you need the pitch control? Did your pitch actually change if you applied resonance control? I know your F0 before VFS was in the range (150 Hz) that I am using nor regularly - was that with resonance control and did it drop if you have not used resonance control? I am still trying to find out what changing resonance would do to a post op voice. I think the difference between me using resonance control and not using it is unusually high in terms of F0...

Quote from: SarahR on November 15, 2013, 09:24:17 PM
For me it was all about consistency and usability. I can have a passable voice, I just can't use it in public. I would always go back down to a lower frequency or fluctuate all over the place. Plus, I can't relate to my "feminine" voice. It doesn't sound like me, naturally, eapecially since I know that I'm forcing it like that.

Well for me, the daytime voice above takes only a little bit of "forcing", more like being aware of it a bit all the time, which again is what is still needed after a VFS anyways to control resonance, right? But I get this with the fluctuations - As you hear I can go to 130 Hz in some situations, 140 Hz for a half sentence even in daytime voice and I notice that sometimes single words or the beginnings of sentences can be really low for some reason (pitch variation is usually a good and "feminine" thing but not if this goes down to 130 Hz syllabils ;) ).

I also get that "this voice does not sound like me" part. It basically is my own thinking that my voice sounds too deep (what I said about the mirror there). Its kind of a reminder of a body that I mostly changed to the better and this is a topic that is hard to get across with people who dont have the focus on body dysphoria (of brain sex / body dis crepancy as I read recently elsewhere). They would say "it passes, you can live and be accepted as a woman in society, so leave it at that" - it is complicated but just as I could not have skipped HRT or SRS even if I did not pass, I also need to fix my voice by some method or another or it may be that I feel not fully at home in my body. Its not as bad as the other issues of course though ;)

I agree with Sarah on the assessment of your voice delani - as far as one can judge from the recording with probably a crappy laptop mic - it sounds fine to me with maybe some small improvements to be made by voice therapy. If this is easy for you and you can use it consistently, I think you may be fine.

Quote from: anjaq on November 16, 2013, 04:00:40 AM
I agree with Sarah on the assessment of your voice delani - as far as one can judge from the recording with probably a crappy laptop mic - it sounds fine to me with maybe some small improvements to be made by voice therapy. If this is easy for you and you can use it consistently, I think you may be fine.

Ok thanks I'll just go to speech pathologists in my area and have session with her to she how it goes she deals with tg voice so I hope I can achieve what I want

Ok, I got the results from my voice examination today.
Funny starting episode to that - she asked me for the origin of my voice problems, I explained that I got the wrong hormones in puberty but now get better ones. She then asked me if I was transgender at which point I corrected her that I am a transsexual, which confused her as she was told by others coming to her that you cannot say transsexual anymore because it contains "sex". Sigh. She then asked me "which direction". LOOOL - I told her that this topic is 15 years behind me, so she was relieved that her view of me as a woman was correct :) . She then poked me an endoscopic camera in the throat and let me make sounds, showed me the video and then sent me to voice assessment. Before that we talked a short moment about my voice issues in respect to TS and she told me that my voice while being low pitched is a nice voice and that if I should consider voice surgery, I should be careful as it would be a pity if I get hoarse afterwards. She knew about two techniques - the chord stretching and the Y-suture (glottoplasty). She told me that she thinks the second one is producing voices that are hoarse and she indicated that she has met patients of Dr Gross in Berlin who had that issue. I told her that I actually do consider the Y-suture but not with Dr Gross as I do not find any good information on him at all or on voice surgery in Germany in general. She then told me that Dr Gross is rather good and that he has had the most patients. So i told her that if I want to do that I would probably go to Seoul for this. She pulled up an eyebrow in a bit of suspicion. I told her that I heard mayn recordings and obviously meeting someone in person or on Skype would be better, but in Germany I got nothing so far. She asked how many surgeries he did and I told her that it was well over 200, more like 250 probably by now. She fell silent and just said "Oh! - THAT many!". This indicates to me that Dr Gross is not even close to that number, so he is most likely out of my considerations now. She still suggested I should do voice training for 3 or better 6 months before planning a trip to Korea and maybe at that point I would do that trip only to do sightseeing.

Now to the results:

The good thing is I do no thave any nodules on the vocal cords that she told me of. The bad thing is that I have 2 other issues with it:
* On one hand it seems that the two chords are sometimes out of sync - maybe one side is more tense or loose or just not keeping the same tension?
* The other is a bigger one and I try to illustrate how it looked like on the video of my voicebox. The blue triangle is the vocal chords, the white room between them is the open area, left is without making a sound, right is while making a sound (the chords of course vibrate then):

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fgqw3BXX.jpg&hash=f2f750ac9f0eaee3a226b3aa35a018082ee0f032)

As you can see, my vocal chords are not coming together over the full length, so I use only a part of them to make a sound. I loose breath that just rushes through these gaps and overall this contributes largely to my voice getting tired rather fast and probably all the subsequent problems. She said the upper, triangle shaped gap is rather common and should not pose a problem, but the lower oval shaped one in the tip of the triangle is causing the issues.
Funnily my mind immediately saw the images of the Y-suture and how it exactly closes this gap - remember, it does bring together the cords in that third of the length. Thats pretty interesting - it means that if the problem persists after voice training and I should go to Yeson, he would fix two problems at once ;)

Another thing is that I seem only to use part of my vocal cord already - her argument against a Y-suture was that part of the cords are not participating in the voice formation afterwards which causes hoarseness.... obviously already not all of the cords are participating in it right now, so duh...

Now the second result was vocal range and loudness and here is the chart:

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FVspEJ03.jpg&hash=e0e5a09b8b480e0e558b1d32c536fd7e1880be0a)

Seems I go from 85 Hz to 750 Hz when doing low loudness sound (blue) and from 110 to 370 Hz when I am doing a loud sound (black) (it was all "O"-sounds). I dont know what the red "Formants" dots mean. The two green crosses are my speaking voice average and me making a relaxed short sound. The speaking voice while reading a passage is 140 Hz, which was a bit on the low side, I know that usually that is 150 or 160 Hz, but after going down to 85 Hz with considerable effort, I was kind of feeling odd and spoke lower pitched.
So the good thing is I can actually go up to almost a g" (WOW!) if I really want and dont have to be loud. The bad thing is that if I am trying to use volume, I loose vocal range massively (probably in part due to that gap mentioned before). Loudness is 80-90 dB in the normal speaking range, shouting gives up to 100 Hz. She also asked me to make a sound that I like and feel comfortable with just saying "Aaaa". It came out to 200 Hz. I was supposed to sustain a "s" sound for as long as possible, I came out at 56 seconds, then a vocal sound ("a" or "o") and I came out to just 9 seconds after which my voice gave out! I think thats really low.

So this is my assessment - some more tests were done in respect to speaking, word starting, hoarseness, softness, intonation, mimics, breathing - but it seems all was ok, she did not mention any flaws in them. I got an indication for "functional dysphonia" which means I can get insurance cover for 10 + 10 voice training sessions which will start tomorrow. Lets see what comes out of it, next checkup at the clinic is in February.

What do you think of this - anyone had similar issues as a result of speaking in a non-relaxed voice (which according to her was the cause of the "gap") for many years or even before that? Any thoughts on the asynchronicity of the cords vibrations? Anything on the pitch/loudness diagram?

Thank you and Greetings.

I know that there were diagrams that outlined different vocal fold issues, one of them being what you have where they don't come together fully. I didn't have that issue so I can't say for certain, but I think that's something that Dr. Kim would fix with the surgery. You'll want to send him that info and confirm that though.

It looks like you have a pretty large range yourself, which is good. It sounds like it's worthwhile to go through the voice therapy, especially since insurance covers it, and see where you are after that. If you're not where you want to be or you cannot easily sustain it then you have some of information to decide whether Yeson is right for you.

That's interesting that she hadn't heard of Dr. Kim yet had heard of the one in Berlin. Keep us updated on your results as you go through the process.

Quote from: SarahR on November 20, 2013, 03:13:44 PM
It looks like you have a pretty large range yourself, which is good. It sounds like it's worthwhile to go through the voice therapy, especially since insurance covers it, and see where you are after that. If you're not where you want to be or you cannot easily sustain it then you have some of information to decide whether Yeson is right for you.

That's interesting that she hadn't heard of Dr. Kim yet had heard of the one in Berlin.

Well, this is Germany. Only rich people go outside the country for surgeries that can be done within the country on insurance cost (they dont cover going abroad). Or people that know that something is done better elsewhere and save up the money.
So it makes sense that she knows German surgeons but no one elsewhere. People also still go for the PI style SRS surgeons here and not to Thailand, even though that is really horrible as this is so outdated that it makes me cry.

Anyways she was not totally against me considering this, which is good.
Yes I was a bit surprised at my range as I tried it in praat and never got up that high, so that was interesting. Maybe it is because she said to deliberately make that tone in a very low volume, which I guess helped this a lot. At a higher volume, the range is a lot less... But she said its a good starting point, I need to expand volume on the higher pitches, probably do some resonance work as well. i found it interesteing that my "favourite tone" was at 200 Hz - i wonder how my voice would be if that became my centerpoint for speaking frequency :) - But thats impossible presently, I cannot do it.

A short update after the first session at the voice trainer - she analyzed the information and said that I have a great vocal range but she has not really encountered many people (or maybe none) with that sort of vocal chord abnormality. She said that usually people will try to tighten the vocal chords to make them thinner and thus sound softer and higher pitched. My vocal chords seem to rather reduce  the mass that makes the sound by reducing the active length considerably, essentially inactivating parts of the vocal chords at the expense of loudness and efficiency to hold a sound due to the bypass. I told her I am considering voice surgery via the Y-suture and was prepared for a backlash. She said two things - I would appreciate comments from Yeson visitors:
* there may be a persistent feeling of something present in the throat - not big but noticeable especially when talking very loud or when breathing or yawning as the vocal chords cannot open to the full length in that situations
* there may be some issues with heavy breathing as the opening to let air through is restricted
But then she also said that essentially what my vocal chords are doing is what this surgery would do - inactivate parts of the vocal chords. So she actually said that in my special case she could imagine that this type of surgery could actually be a good option if training will not be able to close these gaps. That surprised me.

However what I think might actually happen in case I do a glottoplasty is that my voice might not change that much. If I already did inactivate parts of my vocal chords, I am already only using like 2/3 of them and the voice still is rather low. But maybe its a difference if the inactivated parts are closed or open? Maybe this is what happens to those who do the Y suture and complain later that they have not noticed any change, especially if they are speaking differently for a longer time already - the suture closes the gap, but the active length of the vocal chords stays the same, the main effect being that one can relax more and looses less air and maybe then do the other strategy of stretching the chords again to get higher up, which was impossible with the gap still in place.
Geez, I am totally getting a voice nerd here :P

So finally I got some pictures of my voice problem:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FxSbCJa3.png&hash=11091f026959187075f675461fe6fe60547332fb)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FXa45LDn.png&hash=b5b3125c0c53caee7fed28f1d277711ade42fec7)

I hope this makes more clear what I tried to draw before. You can see these openings in the vocal chords at the bottom (front) and top (back) and only roughly 2/3 of the vocal chords touching each other and making a sound. I sent them to Yesons to see what they think about it and will show them to my voice therapist.

Bad News. I need to deal with that information and see what I can make of it...

This is part of the reply from Yeson on the information I sent them:

Quoteit is observed that you have vocal tremors and voice break as well as tension discrepancy due to unbalanced vibration pattern of your vocal folds.
It seems like all these symtomps have been there fore a long time and therefore to compensate these symptoms when producing sound, you seem to have a tendency to press your vocal folds squeezing them
[...]
In this case, going through Voice Feminization Surgery is possible though it may take longer recovery period requiring adequate treatment to treat your dystonia and adapting to your newly shortened vocal folds through daily vocal exercises. Also, the result may not satisfactory after VFS surgery as to it may prevent the pitch from increasing due to the vocal dystonia.

Not cool...
:'(  :'(

Ok, I contacted them again and they said if I can "somehow" correct my vocal issues with the tensioning and assymetry, it would increase my chances of a successful VFS with them. They also suggest I come to them for a proper voice examination but that would be a bit too far now to fly to Seoul just for that. I am trying voice rehab now and see if it makes things better. I will get another examination in February to see if I improved and then another 3 Months of weekly voice rehab. This sucks so much... Not the voice rehab, its kind of fun actually, but that I need to do all of this now and not knowing if I will end up fine or if it is a waste of time.
I decided that I will, just for sake of the information, get the video of the second examination and send it together with recordings and voice range analysis to Dr Thomas as well. A friend suggested that he may be good in interpreting the information and maybe have suggestions as to if or what kind of fix there can be. Probably he will try to tell me that he would recommend his procedure though which is something I am not sure about at all - I am not suffering enough from my voice to readily do this sort of maximally invasive procedure... but maybe he also has less impact options or can at least comment a  bit on what the issues really are wny why they might make a VFS more complicated. Sadly, Dr Kim seems to be a bit too busy to really make recommendations for someone that is not a patient of his.

So, after doing voice rehab now for 3 Months weekly it seems to be improving vastly. The last examination showed no visible double gap anymore, only one gap that is not that bad and still some Asymmetry but even that went down.

I improved my vocal range by two semitones or so to the higher end and imrpoved my loudness in the upper range:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FZOsvgys.jpg&hash=4fdfa31b715827f87b971841d0195931f3fd3355)  (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FVspEJ03.jpg&hash=e0e5a09b8b480e0e558b1d32c536fd7e1880be0a)
(new) vs (old)

The shape of the chords is normalizing:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FLZ24Dhw.png&hash=21200bad128b378819ccdd3e227893898d085b52) (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F9vgZc04.png&hash=9ed37f54a7907bc7d1f999cd15cd6658a37d77ed)
(new) vs (old)

So that is great - it means whatever was I am going now, it is probably possible now again. I will compile the data together with voice recordings and send it again to Dr Kim and to Dr Thomas just for a check, although my voice trainer of the last 3 Monaths has me booked for another 3 Months now and thinks I should be able to get a good voice without surgery but reading from the others here how much easier it is after a VFS to just be confident, not having to think about the pitch anymore and get rid of the dysphoric feelings - I am still quite hung up on still considering VFS. LOL, my phoniater who did the examination is actually curious and told me she will want to do a couple of examinations of me if I was to go to Korea.

Dear Anja,

congratulations, I'm so happy your voice is better!

Keep going and you'll soon be able to go to Korea, good luck,

Amy

Thanks Amy. I am hopeful that I will improve more until in 3 months after the next package of voice rehab and then I will have all the options - including possibly going to Dr Kim... :)
(I guess until then there will be more voice recordings here of people who went to Dr Kim. )

This is only the second thread I have read in this forum. But, vocal surgery seems like the scariest thing I can imagine... A woman's voice is at the center of how I perceive her. Since you corrected the gap, would it make sense to continue training your voice rather than having surgery?

People do amazing things with their voice. I would imagine that you could train your voice to do what you want.

Hey anjaq, Good job keep pressing forward and youll be at Yeson in no time ;D I hope to go sometime this year as well

Hey Anja, that's great news. I'm glad to hear that your effort is paying off.

Thanks you all :)
Yeah I am happy - today we did some sounds in rehab again and I was not aware I could make a resonant sound that great in my singing voice (higher than the speaking voice of course). It was pretty cool and I think it is because that gap is closed now... Neat. I cannot help but wonder if that would be different with voice surgery again. Clearly what has happened though is my voice dropped in pitch with the rehab. I was told so by some people now. But at the same time it sounds fuller. Yesterday at aerobics training the trainer complimented me on my nice deep voice. I feel so bad at that because  I hate it when the voice is that deep but for some unknown reason some women love it. Probably its the same who love narrow hips and wide shoulders in women ;)

Unice - I know it is scary and i know it is at the center of the perception and that is why it is so important to me! I am doing more voice rehab and training, but I am not sure I will be happy with my low voice even if it sounds more female. And I am also not sure I can keep pushin it up. I noticed yesterday after the sports session, If I do that, I loose pitch control and just speak in my usual range... :/ - i do not know if I can get there with just voice training alone. I will try this year some more. I am sure i can learn to make a good voice, but I am not sure I can keep it in all Situations... that i why I consider the surgical option...

Ok, its almost a year since I started on this. This is how my last results look like:
http://imgur.com/a/kpBne

The best one is this one:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FMa32ztS.jpg&hash=0c2886c511de76b02a538a29f6c49507b3feba72)
At higher pitches the chink is almost gone, at lower pitches ther still is a bit of a gap at the "top" (=back), but no second gap in the front. I still seem to open the chords in an "O" shape, which is not great, I guess, but hey - it improved tons.
Voice field also looks better:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FlxvhfUe.jpg&hash=9363fa215e70e4bfc5d74e5df74d8f47c0f52afa)
In rehab sessions I can span over 3.5 octaves, which is pretty cool. Also the jitter is low ("vocal tremor") and the colored dots on the graph are almost forming a line for the colors, which is also a good sign - it says that the vocal break is less pronounced. So I declare my voice more or less healed from most of its very bad issues I had from speaking in a wrong way for years. Of course it still is low pitched. A really relaxed F0 is at 100-110 Hz, when speaking I seem to be between 130 Hz and open end to the top depending on intonation. Average is usually 140-160 if the high sylabils are calculated together with the low ones. So it still is very much noticeable that the voice is still a low voice, Even keeping it above the 130 Hz is a noticeable tension that I feel when I allow myself to relax in a lonely setting. And occasionally it goes down to the 120 Hz if I dont watich it.

So I talked to my voice therapist about all of this and she agreed with me that a surgery is an option for me, since I have a good resonance/sound to the voice that is mostly female, since I am able to compensate for some oddities, since I care a lot about my voice and am regularly doing voice rehab and because probably with a higher F0 I can then relax more and work on some other things easier. She will stick with me and guide me through voice rehab after a surgery and see how to make the best out of it then - no matter how good it will be or what drawbacks I experience. So that was giving me more confidence and now I sent in my present data and possible dates to Dr Kim at Yesons and am waiting for a reply - to see if he also thinks I improved enough, see if they got a date for me that fits and so on. To top it off, my dad was supporting me with some money so I dont have to spend my saved money for this on some bill that came in. I think chances are, that I will be in Korea in Spring . OMG...

Good luck!!! While I didnt go to Yeson I did have a web glottoplasty... I also HAD very deep voice, not really anymore  ;D Im still only 16 days post op but Its already a huge relief for me :o

Im very impressed with your speech therapist 8) Where I live in very rural mid western USA there is nothing like that available.... Id love to do that but its just not an option for me :'(

I hope you can get this surgery, I feel its just going to get more and more common as more and more good results are had 8)

I think my therapist is doing a good job in my voice rehab. She may not be that great at feminizing my voice further but she knows how to make it more healthy, it seems. I Dont know how good she is at feminizing a voice that is not yet changed, I assume she can do that too. There are actually 3 voice therapists in the area who are rather good at feminization of the voice and of course seom dozend other voice therapists who mainly care about voice health. In rural areas it is probably harder - but for me at least the first 10 hours did get me a lot better. The 25 after that were also good but gave me less of a change.

I think my relaxed voice must be on the low male end :P - But funny thing is, even if I try to demonstrate it, people claim it is not that deep - and certainly higher than <insert male or female actor here>. Funnily when analyzed it actually is, so the impression mainly seems to come from something else.

P.S.: I made a relaxed reading recording just now and it actually scared me a little. Of course I never use that voice when being around people... But the average reading of it is at 120 Hz it seems and that is only because I go up in intonations a lot. The lower pitched words or word endings are actually way below 100 Hz, if the readings I see are correct. http://vocaroo.com/i/s1A7Lv2EnO6d

QuoteI think my relaxed voice must be on the low male end :P - But funny thing is, even if I try to demonstrate it, people claim it is not that deep - and certainly higher than <insert male or female actor here>. Funnily when analyzed it actually is, so the impression mainly seems to come from something else.

Well I get that because even though my voice really was terrible and I still need a lot of work as far as Im concerned.... I've had a lot of people from close friends to random encounters tell me about my old voice "its not that bad" all along for me... Id then wonder if they were tone deaf ??? LOL... We are our own worst critics!!!

When the focus is so intense on the female voice even just listening to women talk can sometimes trigger dysphoria for me.... Im only 1 yr in though, all I can do is hope to develop my own voice in time, it CANT get worse anyway ;)

Anyway I think for those with a very deep voice this surgery is a HUGE life changing deal and again I hope you can do it soon ;)

Sooo - There was a bit of a scare now as I filled in the patient form from Yeson and they said that a) due to my medical history I may be more prone than average to having a numb tongue, "unlikely" permanent, due to the surgery - and that earliest dates are available in April, which would be impossible for me. I almost wrote this off with great sadness, but then I got an appointment at a neurologist, let him check and he said that he would not see why I would be at a higher risk than others - also there was a single slot available in February at Yesons.

So I took finally the leap and booked that slot and I will be now there on February 25. I am sooo nervous, excited and all kinds of things now. If anyone is there at that time, we could meet and then sit in front of each other texting face to face :P ;)

Quote from: anjaq on December 10, 2014, 05:56:26 AM
So I took finally the leap and booked that slot and I will be now there on February 25. I am sooo nervous, excited and all kinds of things now. If anyone is there at that time, we could meet and then sit in front of each other texting face to face :P ;)

That's absolutely wonderful Anjaq! I'll really look forward to hearing your progress (don't forget to record your pre-voice).

You are definitely the expert when it comes to carefully researching everything about Yeson, so I wonder if you might know why Dr Kim wants X-Rays? I'm really worried about having more radiation.

I'm so pleased for you.

Sarah.

My guess would be that the Xrays are made to ensure anaesthesia will be ok. But I do not really know. I guess being 15 hours in flight to Korea will be more radation as well - probably more than the yrays there if they are done with a modern machine.

Congrats and good luck ;D

I don't think it has anything to do with anesthesia. My wife had surgery a few times and she never took an Xray.

My guess is he wants to see if you have any underlying conditions that could cause issues in general.

Well - if he needs it, I dont like it, maybe I will ask if they need it, but if there are complications that could occur if they dont do this...

The two flights are about 4 times as much radiation as that Xray though
http://xkcd.com/radiation/

Someone tipped me that you had made the decision and I just want to say

CONGRATULATIONS ANJA!!! HOLY COW! You are doing it!! Caps are totally necessary here! Lol!

Looks like you girls have been busy in the voice forum, it's wonderful to see!! And hear!!!

Aw THANK YOU ;) - yes, holy cow indeed. I am feeling like I am a bit crazy for doing this now, and very excited. It seem surreal for me but there are the flight tickets on my desk, so it will happen - I just have to stay healthy now - or at least in February.
Jenny, you must be what 1.5 year past this surgery now? I saw the last post from you on that topic after the 9 month mark i  believe. What happened thereafter? more improvements? Does it really need the 12 months to be fully ok again? Did you reach the high C in the upper range eventually :P :)?

Geez - just 9 weeks now and that voice topic changes massively for me. Ok and then another 6-12 months recovery - but my voice therapist and phoniater are already excited how it will be for me and they want to do the aftercare.

Anja I wouldn't be surprised with the attention to detail that you pay if you have the best result out of anyone so far ;) Especially with a dedicated team of specialists helping you through the recovery process.

As far as my voice goes, all good things to report. Not much change after the year mark. I still have to watch out somewhat with getting loud at parties and talking loudly for extended periods of time- sometimes the next day my voice will be a little bit weaker.

Half of me wants to try another botox shot. I emailed Dr. Kim a while back asking about those issues and he said it was 100% for sure the vocal tremor he found and that the botox would improve it, temporarily. I wouldn't be surprised if the botox had been helping me out for the first 4 months and then slowly fell completely away as I approached the year mark. Maybe another round is in order to test that!

Either way I'm super happy with my voice. People literally don't believe I'm trans when I tell them. Take for example walking into a trans night at a bar and being asked more than a few times "and why are you here?" Really nice affirmation there!

As far as hitting the high C, no I was never able to reach it! In fact my upper extension has fallen off in recent months, as I have stopped doing the vocal exercises completely. It has probably been about 5 months since I did it at all. I can still hit the E5 pretty easily though! It's not something I worry about, I dunno if you can tell.

I really hope to get a really good voice, indeed. I am not sure it will be happening as I think I damaged it quite a bit over the years and I can feel that. So probably some breathiness will remain. I hope to not loose much at the upper end, if I gain something it will be a bonus. The part about the "high C" was half jokingly as I think that rather few women can actually reach it ;) - but if you would have, it would have been amazing :)

The waekness a day after talking loudly a lot is a bit of a downside. I will probably have some of these days because of my job - sometimes I probably would have to talk loudly for several days in a row. I hope this works. Right now it does not properly and I tend to just reduce my words.

I still wonder what that vocal tremor is all about and what causes it plus what its effect is. Dr Kim remote-diagnosed it in me too but my doctors here never mentioned it. I guess I will have to try to get it fixed with therapy and not botox if it persists.

Quote from: Jennygirl on December 24, 2014, 01:48:50 AM
Either way I'm super happy with my voice. People literally don't believe I'm trans when I tell them. Take for example walking into a trans night at a bar and being asked more than a few times "and why are you here?" Really nice affirmation there!

Wow, thats sooo cool. I tried that once and failed :\ - But I am not sure why. I didnt have FFS though, so maybe that part was it as well. Plus I think we asked someone at the bar about hte meeting and he must have told someone from the group.

Today on christmas day, it will be 2 months until the date. I am exited and a bit nervous ;)

Really pleased for you Anjaq. You've analysed all this for so long to the nth degree; and now you'll have first hand experience. Can I ask what airline you've chosen? I will need to get there from the UK and my favourite, Virgin doesn't seem to fly to Seoul. I don't have all the specialists you do. Do you think it's still possible to get a good result on your own?

Sarah

I will take the cheap flight and the guest house there as the surgery is already expensive enough ;) - So it will be Air China, 800 EU two way from Germany. And the Guest House that Amy recommended is about 50 EU a night for 2 people. So that adds about 1400 EU to the about 5500 EU for the surgery.

Oh and I think of course you can get good results without all those specialists. The others did have good results too. And honestly they are not so special. One is a voice doctor at a clinic, she never had a patient like this before and can just see if it is looking good or if I get blood clots or oedema or something like that - and she can do some voice analysis. She can make endoscope videos to send to Dr kim if needed. But many ENTs can do all of that. And the other person is jsut a regular speech therapist who has some additional knowledge on gendered voice training.

Ok, I just wired the money for the surgery to Korea. No turning back now :P. For those in the Eurozone: It was a whopping 6400 EU thanks to the stupid global politics and economics. A year ago it was almost 1000 EU less. So I am looking at a total of about 8000 EU for the trip, including flight and room.

5 weeks until takeoff - I am getting nervous...

I wrote this altready in the huge thread about Yeson, but just want to repeat part of it here again in my own thread.

Me and a friend arrived at Soul yesterday. The examination is planned for tomorrow and the surgery for the day after that.

3 weeks before, I was noticing I ab about to get a cold, tried everything to prevent it but it got worse, we trated the sinusitis with antibiotics, but they did not work well and a week later I was in bed with fever - 2 weeks before the surgery date. We tried more antibiotics and they worked, I recovered about 10 days before the surgery enough so that Jessie was giving her ok for me to come to Yeson. I worry still, since I still have dryness of the throat and nose, some coughing up of phlegm or mucous... but I hope it will be manageable... I was seriously considering rescheduling the flights and surgery at a rather high cost because of that stupid sickness.

The journey was not pleasant. First flight was delayed already, so it was very close to meet the second, that one was mediocre but ok and ended in Bejing, where we had a lot of "fun" with chinese security. Luckily we had 3.5h transit time, because we needed all of that to have every bit of out hand luggage opened, examined, checked, analyzed, returned to us to pack back in the bags and then open the bags again with the same stuff going on until our stuff was all mixed up and partially lost or damaged. We had to undress to the underwear and be checked over again. We had to explain what all the stuff was in our bags - especially all the medication we carried to be sure to have it if the main baggage would get lost and the inhalator I carried to keep my airways hydrated during the return flight. I guess they thought the inhalator was for using illegal drugs and all the medication would be illegal drugs too or something. The connectin "almost-domestic" flight to Seoul was clearly designed for Chinese with the seats so small that we barely could move. At some point (I think it was when the horrible food arrived) we just had to flash.laugh and could not stop because it was just too absurd and we were so tired. ICN airport then was gigantic - one has to walk and walk and take a train and walk and walk some more to get to the baggage claim. And it is about an hour drive by bus from the city.
So I guess my advice, especially for those who have no legal name/gender change or are not post-GRS yet - avoid Bejing at all costs - they seem to not know what international transit is and I dont even want to imagine what would have happened if upon undressing they would have discovered apparent "mismatches" between my appearance, passport name or gender and body configuration. Drug smugglers that use a false identity would probably have been their guess... Crazy people...

Oh and the dry air in the planes was horrible for the throat and nose :( - Which was why I carried the inhalator and some of the medication in the first place that the Chinese did not like.

And then apparently there is a huge dust storn right now, which makes breathing unpleasant in Seoul. So another advice would really be to travel in summer or fall when there is less risk of getting sick or into a dust storm.

Quote from: anjaq on February 22, 2015, 11:15:10 PM
I wrote this altready in the huge thread about Yeson, but just want to repeat part of it here again in my own thread.

Me and a friend arrived at Soul yesterday. The examination is planned for tomorrow and the surgery for the day after that.

3 weeks before, I was noticing I ab about to get a cold, tried everything to prevent it but it got worse, we trated the sinusitis with antibiotics, but they did not work well and a week later I was in bed with fever - 2 weeks before the surgery date. We tried more antibiotics and they worked, I recovered about 10 days before the surgery enough so that Jessie was giving her ok for me to come to Yeson. I worry still, since I still have dryness of the throat and nose, some coughing up of phlegm or mucous... but I hope it will be manageable... I was seriously considering rescheduling the flights and surgery at a rather high cost because of that stupid sickness.

The journey was not pleasant. First flight was delayed already, so it was very close to meet the second, that one was mediocre but ok and ended in Bejing, where we had a lot of "fun" with chinese security. Luckily we had 3.5h transit time, because we needed all of that to have every bit of out hand luggage opened, examined, checked, analyzed, returned to us to pack back in the bags and then open the bags again with the same stuff going on until our stuff was all mixed up and partially lost or damaged. We had to undress to the underwear and be checked over again. We had to explain what all the stuff was in our bags - especially all the medication we carried to be sure to have it if the main baggage would get lost and the inhalator I carried to keep my airways hydrated during the return flight. I guess they thought the inhalator was for using illegal drugs and all the medication would be illegal drugs too or something. The connectin "almost-domestic" flight to Seoul was clearly designed for Chinese with the seats so small that we barely could move. At some point (I think it was when the horrible food arrived) we just had to flash.laugh and could not stop because it was just too absurd and we were so tired. ICN airport then was gigantic - one has to walk and walk and take a train and walk and walk some more to get to the baggage claim. And it is about an hour drive by bus from the city.
So I guess my advice, especially for those who have no legal name/gender change or are not post-GRS yet - avoid Bejing at all costs - they seem to not know what international transit is and I dont even want to imagine what would have happened if upon undressing they would have discovered apparent "mismatches" between my appearance, passport name or gender and body configuration. Drug smugglers that use a false identity would probably have been their guess... Crazy people...

Oh and the dry air in the planes was horrible for the throat and nose :( - Which was why I carried the inhalator and some of the medication in the first place that the Chinese did not like.

And then apparently there is a huge dust storn right now, which makes breathing unpleasant in Seoul. So another advice would really be to travel in summer or fall when there is less risk of getting sick or into a dust storm.

I'm sorry there were some setbacks/annoyances on the way there, Anja!  But nothing worth doing is ever easy :)  Today is the day, right??  I'm so thrilled that you made it and I'm sending positive energy for a great surgery today :)

Quote from: anjaq on February 22, 2015, 11:15:10 PM
The journey was not pleasant. First flight was delayed already, so it was very close to meet the second, that one was mediocre but ok and ended in Bejing, where we had a lot of "fun" with chinese security. Luckily we had 3.5h transit time, because we needed all of that to have every bit of out hand luggage opened, examined, checked, analyzed, returned to us to pack back in the bags and then open the bags again with the same stuff going on until our stuff was all mixed up and partially lost or damaged. We had to undress to the underwear and be checked over again. We had to explain what all the stuff was in our bags - especially all the medication we carried to be sure to have it if the main baggage would get lost and the inhalator I carried to keep my airways hydrated during the return flight. I guess they thought the inhalator was for using illegal drugs and all the medication would be illegal drugs too or something. The connectin "almost-domestic" flight to Seoul was clearly designed for Chinese with the seats so small that we barely could move. At some point (I think it was when the horrible food arrived) we just had to flash.laugh and could not stop because it was just too absurd and we were so tired. ICN airport then was gigantic - one has to walk and walk and take a train and walk and walk some more to get to the baggage claim. And it is about an hour drive by bus from the city.
So I guess my advice, especially for those who have no legal name/gender change or are not post-GRS yet - avoid Bejing at all costs - they seem to not know what international transit is and I dont even want to imagine what would have happened if upon undressing they would have discovered apparent "mismatches" between my appearance, passport name or gender and body configuration. Drug smugglers that use a false identity would probably have been their guess... Crazy people...

I try to avoid China at all costs, but I once applied for a Chinese visa to visit.

It was quite an experience.

First let me say that my situation is different from yours. China does not really give journalists or anyone who works for the press an easy time. Or let's say they give us extra scrutiny. I am a technology manager at a cable network TV station so from the time I put down who my employer is they get antsy. They think I am a journalist and I am going for work... so they try to tell me I need to apply for a journalist visa. I needed a letter from the company saying I am not going for work.

Eventually I got the visa but I never went.

Hi Anja, I just popped in to Susan's today and noticed that your VFS is today! I can't believe you are finally doing it! I'm excited to hear about your journey. Good luck with everything, and have fun in Seoul.

Anja,

I hope you're OK after your surgery. I have been thinking about you today!

Thanks everyone for the good wishes and energy. I write more tomorrow. But it was really a good experience so far. Jessie is great and Dr Kim is amazing :-). He answered all my questions and comforted me. Surgery was good I think. Complications were bearable. A stiff and painful neck and headache. Apparently I coughed a lot during wake-up, which may be a problem, but I try to avoid out from now on if I can. I cannot always though. Anyways, still jetlagged it seems. 4am and I cannot sleep :-(

Yes, Sarah, I Really did it! Finally! OMG... :-)

Quote from: anjaq on February 25, 2015, 01:08:41 PM
Thanks everyone for the good wishes and energy. I write more tomorrow. But it was really a good experience so far. Jessie is great and Dr Kim is amazing :-). He answered all my questions and comforted me. Surgery was good I think. Complications were bearable. A stiff and painful neck and headache. Apparently I coughed a lot during wake-up, which may be a problem, but I try to avoid out from now on if I can. I cannot always though. Anyways, still jetlagged it seems. 4am and I cannot sleep :-(

Yes, Sarah, I Really did it! Finally! OMG... :-)

Yay!  So happy for you and wishing you a healthy recovery :)

Congrats Anja!  I'm glad to hear that everything went well!!!
Two hours until my own pre-op consultation.  yay!  :o

~Haley

Hi, Haley. Good to hear. Dr Kim is fantastic, he will answer all your questions. So then you may eat until 8pm probably and then its preparation for the surgery tomorrow. You must be excited. They are all so nice in the clinic. Have fun with the rainbow- and grandfather passage :P

Ok, I promised to write some more :)
So on Tuesday was the examination - quite comprehensive, but they did not do a voice range test. Dr Kim did his camera check and asked questions. (One of them was "When did your gender identity change" ;) - I said "never?" - LOL - I hate these sort of questions). The camera check was ok. better than the ones with the camera into the mouth, where I usually gag, but they did that one later, too with a high speed image camera. Interestingly they managed to do ith without me gagging - same as later the infusionfor the surgery - I have no haemmorage there now - for the first time. They really are super careful...
So the check with Dr Kim pointed towards a multiple diagnosis. The usual "vocal tremor" which is his favourite of course, a strong assymetry of the vocal folds, a frontal incomplete glottal closure and of course the androphonia - low pitch. He said the surgery can correct the pitch and assymetry but the other things have to be treated with botox and voice training and hopefully will get better once I do not have to fake my voice anymore.
Then I did the voice examinatio first a video of reading the rainbow passage and some other stuff, then another readong of a new passage, tha "grandfather passage" for the computer. Each time I was supposed to read it in my relaxed and my trained voice. I did not manage to totally relax though, so I think I could have gotten lower. The result was the relaxed one was at 133 Hz the elevated one at 188 Hz. Then some tests with glottal pressure and air flow and more photos and videos of my vocal folds with cameras in my mouth. The result was that I have a 4 times higher pressure on my vocal folds which causes them to "smash together", but I loose a lot of air because of the incomplete glottal closure, so I use 3 times as much air as normal. They also did blood tests (I guess mainly coagulation and liver tests), a test if I am allergic to the antibiotics (no one ever did that in Germany when I was given antibiotics), an X Ray of the chest (with an awfully old looking machine :\ ).

Dr Kim strongly emphasized the importance of getting used to the new vocal folds post op with voice training and suported by the Botox. He recommended 8 months of Botox or the medication. So basically 4 months Botox and then 4 Months of the muscle relaxant. This is long. I mentioned I have a history of depression and am worried a bit about the medication, so he said he will give me a second one that I could use in case the originaly one is too much affecting me. If all works out, I should get rid of some of the other issues with the pressure and air flow as well.

He did explain some of the surgery there. Also the main differences to other surgeries that are similar. A major difference is that he uses permanent sutures, he said the thread used for that can be made more tight and last long enough for the 2 month healing period. Other threads could open by themselves or dissolve too early (which is what happend at my last genital correction surgery). I can imagine it also gives additional support in the long run. The other big thing is that he makes a deep suture. He does not only sew together the vocal folds, but also the tissue beneath that. This means he can avoid a pocket forming, which would cause turbulence in the air flow and cause a breathy or hoarse voice (as I heard it from many other people who had glottoplasty with other doctors), and this trick also makes the new commissure, the little V where the vocal chords meet, more stable. Additional stability is created by scar tissue between the new commissure and its original place at the cartilage. That way it is more stable and less likely to shift or move or swing, which would cause pitch instability and hoarseness.

Surgery was yesterday - he explained again something about recovery, estimated that my pitch increase would happen between month 2 and 4 given my condition and my vocal fold length, which is not too long apparently. He only will do two stitches and he explained again about the Botox. It goes into the muscles outside the vocal folds. Some thyroid (?) muscles, but not the vocalis muscle. If I get this right, this means that one has a limited voice range because of that during the first months. He said the first week I should be absolutely silent (which I found to be impossible because sometimes I need to cough a bit of phlegm up and in a half wake state in the morning I mumbled 2 words today, but I give my best) - then 3 more weeks of silence or saying a word or two intentionally. Then 4 weeks of minimum conversation and after 2 months the full voice use and beginning of voice therapy.

Surgery was ok - My main complications were some swelling in the hand of the infusion and severe neck and head pain, but my sensation in the tongue is all right, I mentioned I am sensitive to it, so he took extra care of it, asked me about my teeth, if they are all ok. They still are. The neck pain comes from overstretching hte neck in order to get the tools into it and the headache from the anaesthesia. Apparently I coughed a whole lot while waking up from the anaesthesia without having memory of that. I hope this is all right. I needed the full 3-4 hours then after that to recover enough to go back to the hotel by taxi. I was not feeling so wekk because of the pain, but I enjoyed the ice cream and cold water as well as the hand warm soup later on. No hot or spicy food for the next days... I had to cough again some times during the recovery.

Then he did a post op check - with camera. He showed me the pictures and the suture looked great. To my eyes it looked like he has reduced it by more than 1/3, but that could be a misperception. The whole thing looks more like a y than a Y, with the new commissure being off axis by a good part because only that way he could correct the asymmetry. Now both sides are same size, that should be good. Everything seems to have gone very well.

Taxi back to the Phil House cost 6000 Won and was fast. Then I needed a night to recover, eat more ice cream from the store next to the house and sadly could not really sleep well. Jetlag plus the Koreans seem to like to have very hard beds. Even in the clinic, the bed was very hard and uncomfy for me, I am used softer beds from home and clinics in Germany. I hope I can find more rest. first day post op I am pretty much awake and feel fine, but I was sleeping - or trying to - until midday. So no sightseeing today, but getting food later on.

I had some trouble with finding affordable food here, many places are expensive,  but some seem to be reasonable, expecially the ones not selling western food. Also the ATMs apparently often do not take Maestro cards, which is annoying and we still have to find one that does to get more money.

Jessie was super helpful and nice. I also got a package with medication for 7 days, antibiotics and stuff that makes it easier to get rid of phlegm, but no cough suppressant - but I brought some of that myself. Also post op instructions and some papers with important sentences in english and korean to get around.

I feel amazingly little pain - just like one would have if one had a laryngitis or bad cough before - so it is really a mental issue to keep the silence as not much physically reminds me of having had the surgery.

So far, so good. Now 7 days of voice rest, sightseeing and then followup and return flight, hopefully with less interference from stupid people in Bejing who do not know that some people need a lot of medication and an inhalator device to prevent too much dry air from damaging a strained voice.

Greetings

Yay Anja!!! I am so excited for you!

Also my date is 25 June. So I will be in Seoul from the 24th and leaving July 4.

The blood workup seems to be standard for most surgeons, they do CBC and other tests. My levels are slightly low but I have an iron deficiency which I am remedying with supplements.

I think we kind of start to figure out how to get food at a reasonable price now. Some restaurants have dishes that are made for two people. so we were scared a bit by the prices, but since the size is enough for two and one gets two plates with it, it makes it all reasonable again. Also seriously one has to avoid anything remotely Western, it seems. We paid like 30000 KRW for a bit of bread, fake cheese, ham and vegetable spread "butter" plus some sauce to make sandwiches for breakfast (and some bananas and water). I found that quite steep, but did not know what korean replacement for a breakfast to take. But the stalls at the road sell fried surimi and sausages in bake or dough for quite cheap and we had roasted chicken similar to KFC in a chicken restaurant last night for just 11000 for two people. That was reasonable. Still maybe more expensive than I would expect for something similar in a similar looking place at home, but ok.

I am getting a little better at coughing less, but stupid me has actually dropped a word twice yesterday. I really have to watch myself much more to avoid that, even in the half-wake one one side and shocked state on the other side I was in (getting woken up by the cleaning lady and the toilet overflowing). Its that sort of uncontrolled situations that "get you". But those I mentioned it to who did the trip already said it is happening to everyone a few times and I should not worry... Just watch it more closely so I avoid it happening more often.

Anja, how did the follow up go? Hope all is well.

Yes, all is well :)

They sent me home with all the data in a paper file and on a USB device. I also asked for the Photos of the Followup. Apparently Dr Kim shortened my vocal fords by about 40%, so that is slighly more than the usual 1/3 suture but not as much as the 1/2 suture.

This is how it looks  now:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FGT0XE0H.jpg&hash=8238deea79fbb20124736c0f9f91e5f39e6c3dc3)

I got a Botox shot (made a small haematoma sadly, so now I have a bit of a blue mark on the neck for some days, but it will go away) and the tablets for the post Botox Phase. He gave me enough for 4 Months, which is a long time, most others seem to have gotten only 1 month. Also it may be that I need a second Botox in 3-4 months. He gave me Clonazepam as always, but also gave me Afloqualone as an alternative if I react badly on that (he asked me if I had Depression before and I said yes, so that is why).

He also told me to keep silent for 4 weeks beginning the day of the followup, so a week longer than I expected. Not speaking was ok in Korea - no one to talk to anyways and those who are there are not speaking english anyways and a dialog is possible with typing and showing, but now at home with several people it is frustrating because when I am finished typing something to remark on a topic, the topic already changed.

Now - I have to wait a month to hear my new voice really and he said that in 2-4 Months the pitch should inrease. I am excited and just cannot wait ;)

Super happy for you Anja! I hope it sounds really good.

I have to book my hotel for when I go in June. I have been thinking Phil house myself.

Phil House is OK, but really in a way very basic. So the rooms are not large, the beds are typically asian - rather hard, the breakfast is very basic too - coffee and toast. But the advantage is that it is rather cheap, you can bring a friend at no extra costs, you have a fridge and kitchen and even a washing machine in the room, which was really useful. So its definitely saving money. But it is more suited if you want to be outside a lot and not stay in the room for days. One hint: bring a large rowel for showering. They give you fresh towels for free as often as you want, but they are small. You can check out the day before you leave if you leave early and they give you a number key for the door. They were really helpful if we had issues, one just has to ask them. Oh but dont use toilet paper in the toilet. We found out that in Phil House it is the same as in most other places in Seoul - the toilets dont take paper well. Even restaurants have often trash bins in the toilet stalls to put in the used toilet paper.

And avoid being tempted by european style foods in Seoul generally. We bought stuff to make breakfast sandwiches - bread, cheese, ham, butter, sauce and it cost like $30 for enough to make a handful of sandwiches. and the cheese was fake, the "butter" was vegetable margarine with butter... lol.

So Phil House is ok, especially if you want to have something like a frisge and washing machine, save money and want to be in the City a lot instead of the room, it probably is less suited if you like hotel service, daily room cleaning and want to stay in the room a lot. Oh but Phil house has a nice common living room downstairs with couches, a dart machine and a dining table, so one can use that too.

I was told, June is rather hot and humid. So its the opposite of how it was now - grey and cold and windy. The best time to be in Seoul seems to be April and May or September and October. But Phil House has air conditioning ;)

Thanks.

I do plan to make the most out of my trip. I will be shopping and not simply staying in my room.

Cheap is good, cheap is great actually. The other amenities seem to make it worthwhile.

Yes. For me it was totally ok. i wanted to go ou tmore, but my friend who was with me became sick during the journey to Korea and then was rather in a bad stat there. So she stayed a lot in the room and was annoyed by that. Sadly I was thus less able to go out as well. So it was kind of bad luck because I had the surgery and was hoping to get some care by having a friend with me and then I had to care for my friend almost more than she was able to help me. Another reason not to go in winter but rather in April, May, September, October: Less risk to get a cold and be sick...

Unfortunately I have kids in school and cannot go during the school term. That's the main reason I pushed it out so far.

Yes - same here almost. I can only go in February and with a tighter schedule I could go in September, but would have to be back to full voice use 6 weeks later, which is not good. 8 weeks is what Dr Kim said. But still, it may have been the wiser choice...

So excited to hear your voice! And thank you for sharing this journey! <3

So, the 4 week resting period was over at the end of last week and I was trying out a few sentences since then. Pitch certainly has gone up a bit, but not by fas as much as is the goal, which is not uncommon, I was told by Dr Kim that in my case it should reach the goal by the end of the 4th month, so that is a while. Clearly the lower notes are gone as is the timbre that goes with it even in the higher notes. So one goal reached is already that I cannot go really low anymore. My guess would be that about 130 Hz is the lower limit (before it was 80 Hz). The voice is softer, has a different quality, is more naturally feminine - this is probably in part because of the desired changes but also in part because of the Botox and the breathiness that comes from being so early in the recovery. I will see how this develops. What I noticed is that it is incredibly easy to go up in pitch, when I tried my first sentences, I accidentially went in a very high pitch for some intonations because I was doing what I was used to do and the same amount of muscle tension cause my voice to go way higher than I was used to. Still, relaxed pitch is at maybe 150 Hz, so that is about 20 Hz higher than my pre op relaxed trained voice and about 40 Hz higher than my bottom end "male" voice. So I kind of hope it will go up in the 180-200 Hz range as would be predicted. So far, I am impressed for being just 4 weeks post op, this is already very good, I think. Feedback from others varied a bit, some said it is great and undeniably feminine, others said that it is in part feminine but in parts it is more androgynous sounding or even sometimes male sounding. I guess this is less about pitch or timbre but more about the way I speak and this is a bit restricted now. Some of the old tricks dont work anymore and it will be a bit of a learning process to feminize the sound of the voice in terms or resonance and intonations again, I also lacked some in these areas, so I hope that with pitch and timbre out of the way, I have more freedom and relaxation to improve my prosody.
I can say a few sentences, then I have to make along break, drink a lot of water always , but if I do that, I can probably do 50-100 sentences a day today, although I suspect this may have been a bit much, since I was pretty hoarse and weak at the end, so I will try to keep it below that in the next days.
3.5 weeks until I should be able to use my voice fully again and to start with voice exercises 5x a day and voice therapy 1-2x a week and explore the abilities of my new voice.

Quote from: anjaq on March 29, 2015, 02:48:15 PM
So, the 4 week resting period was over at the end of last week and I was trying out a few sentences since then. Pitch certainly has gone up a bit, but not by fas as much as is the goal, which is not uncommon, I was told by Dr Kim that in my case it should reach the goal by the end of the 4th month, so that is a while. Clearly the lower notes are gone as is the timbre that goes with it even in the higher notes. So one goal reached is already that I cannot go really low anymore. My guess would be that about 130 Hz is the lower limit (before it was 80 Hz). The voice is softer, has a different quality, is more naturally feminine - this is probably in part because of the desired changes but also in part because of the Botox and the breathiness that comes from being so early in the recovery. I will see how this develops. What I noticed is that it is incredibly easy to go up in pitch, when I tried my first sentences, I accidentially went in a very high pitch for some intonations because I was doing what I was used to do and the same amount of muscle tension cause my voice to go way higher than I was used to. Still, relaxed pitch is at maybe 150 Hz, so that is about 20 Hz higher than my pre op relaxed trained voice and about 40 Hz higher than my bottom end "male" voice. So I kind of hope it will go up in the 180-200 Hz range as would be predicted. So far, I am impressed for being just 4 weeks post op, this is already very good, I think. Feedback from others varied a bit, some said it is great and undeniably feminine, others said that it is in part feminine but in parts it is more androgynous sounding or even sometimes male sounding. I guess this is less about pitch or timbre but more about the way I speak and this is a bit restricted now. Some of the old tricks dont work anymore and it will be a bit of a learning process to feminize the sound of the voice in terms or resonance and intonations again, I also lacked some in these areas, so I hope that with pitch and timbre out of the way, I have more freedom and relaxation to improve my prosody.
I can say a few sentences, then I have to make along break, drink a lot of water always , but if I do that, I can probably do 50-100 sentences a day today, although I suspect this may have been a bit much, since I was pretty hoarse and weak at the end, so I will try to keep it below that in the next days.
3.5 weeks until I should be able to use my voice fully again and to start with voice exercises 5x a day and voice therapy 1-2x a week and explore the abilities of my new voice.

What wonderful news!  So happy for you that your results are so far very pleasing (and will continue to improve!).  I have no doubt this is in part due to your diligence to stick with the after care instructions as best as you could.  Can't wait to read and hear more!

Well I admit I am not doing so well on the after care these days. I should watch it more. I talked probably too much yesterday with a friend visiting and today at work, so I was gettin sore throat and worst of all, I had to sneeze, after that my throat was sore for the rest of the day :( - I need to use more text and less talking again for the next days...

Quote from: anjaq on March 30, 2015, 03:44:10 PM
Well I admit I am not doing so well on the after care these days. I should watch it more. I talked probably too much yesterday with a friend visiting and today at work, so I was gettin sore throat and worst of all, I had to sneeze, after that my throat was sore for the rest of the day :( - I need to use more text and less talking again for the next days...

I was just pointing out that you made the effort and did your best.  The few times I've seen people complain about a "bad result" it usually comes out that they were grossly ignoring the after care advice.  I think that this far out it would take a LOT to diminish your results :)

Ok, so on a good day (I have more bad days than good days and evenings are always bad) I think the voice is very ok now: http://vocaroo.com/i/s0eqhwuwNT1G - sadly this is not always the case, more healing needs to be happening to have these moments more often and hopefully eventually should be nearly always happening. I am very hoarse still, especially after talking just a little bit regular conversation, the voice still has very low volume. 2 weeks until the main healing period is over and I can start with the voice exercises and voice rehab. I hope for some improvement from there on.

Quote from: anjaq on April 12, 2015, 08:30:34 AM
Ok, so on a good day (I have more bad days than good days and evenings are always bad) I think the voice is very ok now: http://vocaroo.com/i/s0eqhwuwNT1G - sadly this is not always the case, more healing needs to be happening to have these moments more often and hopefully eventually should be nearly always happening. I am very hoarse still, especially after talking just a little bit regular conversation, the voice still has very low volume. 2 weeks until the main healing period is over and I can start with the voice exercises and voice rehab. I hope for some improvement from there on.

You sound wonderful, Anja; completely feminine! Is there a recording of your pre-surgery voice somewhere? You must be so happy!

Sarah

Your voice sounds a lot better than it used to. Very feminine. Sounding a lot more relaxed in German.

Here is a "official" pre OP voice at a voice doctor: http://vocaroo.com/i/s0E1rwXhMaBL (also in german , just like the other one before - I will post english texts soon). Admittedly, the voice I use in that clip is not what I did in everyday conversations, it is my relaxed and lower voice. This is another recording I did for myself and probably is more like I spoke everyday towards the end of last year. Its also pretty low, but this is close to my everyday voice then. http://vocaroo.com/i/s1jJHundjYIb

Your voice sounds so great now Anja!  I can't wait to hear in another 2 months :)

I think I had a bit of a setback - I was talking way too much on the last weekend, having met with family and friends and being in restaurants and a bar - so I am having a sore throat now for a while and cannot really speak up, I try to keep it low now - saying only few words and at low volume and hoping it will go away soon ...

Quote from: anjaq on April 13, 2015, 07:51:04 AM
Here is a "official" pre OP voice at a voice doctor: http://vocaroo.com/i/s0E1rwXhMaBL (also in german , just like the other one before - I will post english texts soon). Admittedly, the voice I use in that clip is not what I did in everyday conversations, it is my relaxed and lower voice. This is another recording I did for myself and probably is more like I spoke everyday towards the end of last year. Its also pretty low, but this is close to my everyday voice then. http://vocaroo.com/i/s1jJHundjYIb

Ah, my original thoughts are even more confirmed: you sound totally female now that the undertones in your original voice are gone. This really gives me hope and makes me convinced this surgery is for me! The frequency is a little higher, but your old voice had some of the markers I recognise in my own voice (though yours have gone now). Wow!

I just need to be sure this lack of undertonal 'male' markers is permanent and not just due to the botox. What do you think?

Quote from: anjaq on April 14, 2015, 04:48:17 PM
I think I had a bit of a setback - I was talking way too much on the last weekend, having met with family and friends and being in restaurants and a bar - so I am having a sore throat now for a while and cannot really speak up, I try to keep it low now - saying only few words and at low volume and hoping it will go away soon ...

Don't worry, I'm sure it's only temporary. I did some shouting a while ago and was convinced I had done some serious damage because I could make no sound. I rested my voice for a day and a night and it came back.

Yes, I will try to give it more rest, but I cannot really manage to stay totally silent for a day again. Maybe on the weekend...

I hope it will all recover and be better.

So yes indeed the markers, the undertones are gone. I think most of them will be gone forever. But I can only tell you in some months for sure. I think Amy said from her experience, that they just are gone forever for her.

I actually dont mind it if pitch does not go incredibly high. I am happy if it just goes up a little more from those recordings. Thats ok for a big german woman in her 40ies. The change in the undertones and the inability to drop accidentially into some really low range is already worth a ton.

One thing I find curious is this stronger response of my pitch to using pitch variations. I think I know now, why it is so hard for many to get rid of the monotonous speaking that men usually have and that many transwomen try to get rid of with voice training. It just takes a whole lot more effort to use these pitch variations with male sized vocal folds as compared to female vocal folds - the same muscle tension and effort just produces more pitch variation.

Quote from: anjaq on April 16, 2015, 04:46:43 PM
Yes, I will try to give it more rest, but I cannot really manage to stay totally silent for a day again. Maybe on the weekend...

I hope it will all recover and be better.

So yes indeed the markers, the undertones are gone. I think most of them will be gone forever. But I can only tell you in some months for sure. I think Amy said from her experience, that they just are gone forever for her.

I actually dont mind it if pitch does not go incredibly high. I am happy if it just goes up a little more from those recordings. Thats ok for a big german woman in her 40ies. The change in the undertones and the inability to drop accidentially into some really low range is already worth a ton.

One thing I find curious is this stronger response of my pitch to using pitch variations. I think I know now, why it is so hard for many to get rid of the monotonous speaking that men usually have and that many transwomen try to get rid of with voice training. It just takes a whole lot more effort to use these pitch variations with male sized vocal folds as compared to female vocal folds - the same muscle tension and effort just produces more pitch variation.

Your observation about the ease of pitch variation sounds heavenly.  I know you overdid it a little bit last weekend but other than that, how has the volume level been? Is it straining to speak loudly? Thanks :)

Well I need to see if the easiness in pitch variation holds up in full volume speaking which I should not do too much now and which was the cause of the issues I had this week. I used my voice too loudly because the restaurant became fuller and fuller and I did not even notice until at some point I noticed it is harder and harder to speak. So yes, higher volume still is a strain. But this hopefully will mainly take time to heal and voice rehab and voice exercises to help go away.

Right now at a medium or low volume, I somethines have to watch not to be squeaky when speaking since I have somehow gotten used to push my pitch up in some syllabils to improve voice melody. So if I still do that I end up way too high and it sounds stupid - so I probably will have to unlearn some of the things I learned.

Quote from: anjaq on April 17, 2015, 04:55:20 PM
Well I need to see if the easiness in pitch variation holds up in full volume speaking which I should not do too much now and which was the cause of the issues I had this week. I used my voice too loudly because the restaurant became fuller and fuller and I did not even notice until at some point I noticed it is harder and harder to speak. So yes, higher volume still is a strain. But this hopefully will mainly take time to heal and voice rehab and voice exercises to help go away.

Right now at a medium or low volume, I somethines have to watch not to be squeaky when speaking since I have somehow gotten used to push my pitch up in some syllabils to improve voice melody. So if I still do that I end up way too high and it sounds stupid - so I probably will have to unlearn some of the things I learned.

Thanks for the info, so fascinating I can't wait to see a few months down the road whether or not you maintained your super high head voice notes. 

Hey. So I had my 8 week post OP examination at a local clinic. The endoscopic view looks good so far:

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FwSeWyIT.png&hash=97952815309ddba4f2214880d0932c0fc71f44e9)

The voice examination gave me this result:

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fc42VH25.png&hash=ede68ccbeca46317c38fc4223750cf8c92ef8e97)

Which means my average speaking pitch is at about 188 Hz (up from 135-150), my vocal range is about 3 octaves (down from 3.5), lowest pitch is 114 Hz (up from 80 Hz), highest pitch is 788 Hz (down from about 960 Hz), volume is down by about 5-10 dB, DSI is down by about 1 point, indicating some hoarseness, jitter is really low (better than before surgery), this is probably a Botox effect.

And this is the rainbow passage recording, I sent together with all the other data to Dr Kim, awaiting analysis now...
http://vocaroo.com/i/s10misJIspPe

So far I think I am good. I need to regain strength, volume, loose the hoarseness and see what happens to my vocal range. I would not mind loosing some more at the bottom and regaining a lot on the top.

Looking and sounding good.

The suture looks clean and expertly done and you sound amazing :)

You sound great!

Well, its ups and downs....

Today I did a recording and it was basically my original pitch again:

http://vocaroo.com/i/s1fthQ0ZlEV3

I ask myself if the reason I had a better pitch last week was bascially just that it is a lot easier now to slip into my trained voice, so that I just do it without thinking too much. This still is good - it means its a lot easier to use that voice, but it also kind of seems to imply that if I happen to not do this, I drop back to my old pitch. One thing about this is remarkable though, that low pitch actually is more straining and makes me have to clear my throat afterwards - so it clerarly is not the optimum voice to use. Still it can come out when I try to not do anything.

I hope voice training can fix this somehow and some more healing will contribute as well. Maybe my brain just has to get used to using that higher pitch all the time now that it is not taking any effort anymore and not use that lower pitch that still is there, but not really comfortable to use.

Quote from: anjaq on April 27, 2015, 04:45:00 AM
Well, its ups and downs....

Today I did a recording and it was basically my original pitch again:

http://vocaroo.com/i/s1fthQ0ZlEV3

I ask myself if the reason I had a better pitch last week was bascially just that it is a lot easier now to slip into my trained voice, so that I just do it without thinking too much. This still is good - it means its a lot easier to use that voice, but it also kind of seems to imply that if I happen to not do this, I drop back to my old pitch. One thing about this is remarkable though, that low pitch actually is more straining and makes me have to clear my throat afterwards - so it clerarly is not the optimum voice to use. Still it can come out when I try to not do anything.

I hope voice training can fix this somehow and some more healing will contribute as well. Maybe my brain just has to get used to using that higher pitch all the time now that it is not taking any effort anymore and not use that lower pitch that still is there, but not really comfortable to use.

Interesting, though the healing is still not matured yet. I don't expect to be anywhere near stable before at least 6 months to a year.

I really don't think the pitch is that important, as now you've lost the undertones, your voice sounds female at whatever pitch you use. This is probably why a female alto sounds female, and a male alto still sounds male.

Incidentally, do you know why I might be getting this message from Jessie at Yeson (in response to two emails):

"Thank you for contacting Yeson Voice Center. This is Jessie from International Patients Department.
We are going to celebrate our lunar new year holidays from Feb 18th to Feb22nd so that I will be able to get back to you following my return on Feb 23rd. I'm genuinely sorry for any inconvenience caused.
For any case of emergency, please reach me at +xx-xx-xxxx-xxxx.
Your patience and cooperation are always appreciated.

Sincerely,
Jessie Shin"

Quote from: Teslagirl on May 04, 2015, 04:19:59 PM
I really don't think the pitch is that important, as now you've lost the undertones, your voice sounds female at whatever pitch you use. This is probably why a female alto sounds female, and a male alto still sounds male.

Incidentally, do you know why I might be getting this message from Jessie at Yeson (in response to two emails):

"Thank you for contacting Yeson Voice Center. This is Jessie from International Patients Department.
We are going to celebrate our lunar new year holidays from Feb 18th to Feb22nd so that I will be able to get back to you following my return on Feb 23rd. I'm genuinely sorry for any inconvenience caused.
For any case of emergency, please reach me at +xx-xx-xxxx-xxxx.
Your patience and cooperation are always appreciated.

Sincerely,
Jessie Shin"

I think it's just a typical "away from the office" email that she sent out to notify any recent patients from the practice that she won't be checking her messages on the dates listed while she's on vacation :)

QuoteThis is probably why a female alto sounds female, and a male alto still sounds male

I am not sure - its part of that, for sure. But another part is resonance, I can still do a more male resonance - its iffy and not working properly, but then it sounds indeed more like a boy voice. Hence the emphasis on the resonance exercises

Yesterday I was at a small event, a meeting of women. As part of that we also did some singing/chanting. And it works! I could sing or rather chant - not for very long, not hitting notes perfectly, but I could sing and one of the women remarked that it is a great voice, too. Also, I did not feel betrayed by my voice during the evening. I felt like I belong and I am not having this thing attached to me when I open my mouth (which also lurks in the shadow when I dont talk) that makes me feel like "a different kind of woman" - I am happy :) :)

Regarding the reply from Jessie - I got the same thing. She must have activated an autoresponder because she is away from office for vacation or holidays and probably forgot to change the autoresponder text :P

Anja, that is so wonderful.  It's the little things like that that often make the biggest difference.  It must be so wonderful not to worry about the way your voice sounds and feel like it matches your personality.  Congrats :)

Anjaq , I just wanted to say I am so very pleased for you, I listened to your voice recordings and you sound wonderful. I know you had been on a journey of research on ffs and glottoplasty, I am glad you went with this. It's very interesting!

As someone who has been transitioned for a while myself, I am starting to feel as though the effort to my vocal cords is taking a toll, they feel tired and forced, and the more that happens the more nasal and funny I sound these days. The people that know I'm trans, praise my voice, but I, like you used to, have a voice that I use in public that sounds lovely and female and one at home that is a little more lose but still female. It does cause me some dysphoria when I cough sometimes and I hear this voice that I don't like. And the feeling to my vocal cords, they feel tired.
So a question would be , although it might be too early to ask, does this feeling of forced and tired vocal cords seem to be alleviating after your surgery? I have just found out about a Dr. Doing the Yeson style surgery in the UK, and I'm considering a private consultation and also mentioning this to my gender clinic. I don't want to keep straining my vocal cords forever and I want to live with the same peace of mind of which you just spoke of you felt at the all women gathering. You described it in a way that I actually visualised it well.

Let me know your thoughts, I am so so very pleased for you.

Hi. Well, It is a bit early indeed. I sometimes feel a lot less strained, especially in the upper range, it is far far easier to just speak. However the lower areas where I feel a regular speaking voice should sit are rough. I still have to watch tha tI use the voice correctly, I hope this will eventually become second nature, but for now I need to watch to use the right resonance and phonation pattern. If I don't, my voice drops and sounds breathy and hoarse and is getting sore. So I need to re-learn how to use my voice properly, but if I get this right, there is little strain using a high pitched voice.

What bugs me a bit is that in the chest voice, below the middle C for me now, the phonation is much less stable as in the head voice and all the Yeson exercises aim at the range above the middle C. So I added some lower pitch exercises from my therapist, since my target average speaking pitch would be G or A below the middle C, meaning I also would use E or F occasionally. Laughing is really cool now. coughing did not change that much, just a bit I guess.

This is me 10.5 week update by the way: http://vocaroo.com/i/s03LQj4zeS4W
For this recording I use female resonance technique, which is not hard to do for me now, and I dont control pitch except of course when reading that stupid text, I always feel inclinded to overly intonate the words ;) - average pitch comes out at 180 Hz (about F below the middle C). Dr Kim estimated I should get to 210 though, I am not sure if that will happen, if so, it takes some more time. But 180 are all right, too.

Dropping the resonance control, I seem to end up more in the area of 160-170 Hz, which is slightly above my pre op trained speaking pitch. But this then is what pre OP would have ended up as being 120 or 130 Hz, so my pitch gain overall in lowest pitch, male resonance and female resonance voice is always 30-40 Hz, about half of what can be expected from the surgery. So I have hope that given the description says pitch can inrease for months, I still will see some increase...

Back to your question - the strain I feel now is a very different one from before. I dont feel much need to force something, rahter I feel that using too much force makes it harder to speak, but also there is a hoarseness and soreness that comes up when doing something not quite right. That is a new kind of strain I guess, but as you said, it is probably too early to say anything, since I am not even in the phase where the Botox wears off.

Be careful about choosing a surgeon though. The method itself is 20 years old and was applied to Transsexuals in the 1990ies. Its not something shiny new that just by doing it will give better results than previous techniques. In fact som of the surgeons using this technique certainly have contributed to the bad reputation, voice surgery has, by not doing it well. The key to success of this surgery seems to be:

* details in the surgical technique (not the general technique itself) - like how many stitches, where to place them, how to treat the muscous membranes, etc...
* experience, enthusiasm and precision of the surgeon
* A very well done aftercare that often goes beyond what surgeons suggest (Yeson seem to give the most strict rules, I would follow them in any case)
* Speech therapy before and after the surgery.


Greetings

Thanks Anjaq, I will take your advice and inform myself about the Drs technique in detail before I decide on anything or anyone. As a matter of fact if it's not too much to ask. I might do a recording or 2 and share them with you here so you can give me your opinion, not so much your opinion on how good or not my trained voice is but wether you think there's improvement to be made with my more relaxed voice and to the straining?  Is there any particular sites you could suggest to me I can use to understand things better also? In regards to resonance, etc etc? do you use any apps ? Like to check the pitch in Hz?

Just heard that recording and you sound really great, what I like about it is that it sounds effortless. It sounds like a low pitch female voice but an absolutely jnedniable female voice . It doesn't sound when listening to your preop trained voice. Although it was female there was a certain straining I could almost detect, that maybe most people wouldn't , I often wonder wether this might be something with me too. ..
Carly x

Well yes - i did not expect to become a very high pitched voice person - I am still hoping for some increase though, since it was said that pitch can increase with time quite a bit. I think the biggest changes for me so far are really that there is less effort involved in using higher pitches, the no-effort voice is a bit higher than before, I dont have to force the voice up if I want to use more voice melody, I cannot really drop in horrible lows anymore, the timbre has changed a bit - before I think I had to really watch out to not let the low undertones sneak in, now I can just forget about them.

The changes I had so far are less dramatic than what I heard in others here - so I am not the "case 1" in Dr Kims charts, who basically have pitch increase very fast and strong, but I am apparently more the "case 2" where it takes some months to develop. As of now, I still have to consciously elevate my voice at times to keep it at a good pitch, but it takes much less effort and control. Also it may be a mind thing - if I use my voice without thinking, sometimes it just comes out higher than when I speak normally. I guess years and years of controlling my voice make it harder to let go now...

Also as stupid as it sounds, but at times I just dont dare to use a higher pitched voice even if I could. I would feel weird around people who know me and my previous voice... So my voice is different with people who did not know me before, I believe

Well. Like I said, it's undeniably female. And it sounds better than last recording , you might even get more of a pitch increase with time like you said. But even if you didn't your voice sounds great now Hun.

If my perception and understanding of the way you explain things is right , the more you explain to me, the more it sounds to me like this procedure is right for me too.

Hello again Anjaq.

I'm hoping to book with Yeson very soon. Can I ask what method you used to transfer funds to Korea? Also, I think you said you wish you'd got the local currency from an ATM rather than get it in advance. Is there a ATM machine in the airport? Do I remember you saying that the beds in the PhilHouse were really hard? I have a back problem. Perhaps I'd be better off in a mainstream hotel?

Thanks again for all your really useful information.

Sarah.

Quote from: calicarly on May 11, 2015, 04:01:30 PM
Well. Like I said, it's undeniably female.

Oh thanks. Really? Thats great then :)
I feel a lot more confident with it. I dont feel the urge to be silent if I meet random women in a group anymore (before I always felt like an outsider because I was reminded of having a different voice all the time), I actually liked singing last week, so things really are quite good already and maybe they will improve a bit more still.

Quote from: Teslagirl on May 11, 2015, 05:01:55 PM
Can I ask what method you used to transfer funds to Korea? Also, I think you said you wish you'd got the local currency from an ATM rather than get it in advance. Is there a ATM machine in the airport? Do I remember you saying that the beds in the PhilHouse were really hard? I have a back problem. Perhaps I'd be better off in a mainstream hotel?

I wire transferred the money as my credit card company could not guarantee that I would be able to charge my card with such a large amount in a foreign country without tripping security checks. It cost a bit of money to transfer the money, but it was ok. Better than getting it in cash and wandering around with it.

There are a lot of ATMs in Seoul. Look for the ones that say "global" or "international" on them. They usually accept "MAESTRO" cards as well as Mastercard or Visacard - but not all banks have a contract with Korean banks, so please ask first at your bank, if they allow you to withdraw money in Seoul. A friend of mine could not withdraw money with her Maestro card and I could, the reason was that she has her account at a bank that is less well known and that had no contract while I was with one of the bigger banks in germany. If it works, its really easy though and ATMs are everywhere, even in the building at Yeson clinic.

I think in Korea, beds are always a bit harder. I felt that even the hospital bed was much harder than I would have expected from a clinic at home. So I am not sure that hotels have much softer beds than Phil House. Maybe you can find information on some of the travel portals online where people report their experiences.

Quote from: Teslagirl on May 11, 2015, 05:01:55 PM
Hello again Anjaq.

I'm hoping to book with Yeson very soon. Can I ask what method you used to transfer funds to Korea? Also, I think you said you wish you'd got the local currency from an ATM rather than get it in advance. Is there a ATM machine in the airport? Do I remember you saying that the beds in the PhilHouse were really hard? I have a back problem. Perhaps I'd be better off in a mainstream hotel?

Thanks again for all your really useful information.

Sarah.

I did a wire transfer from my credit union. It was US$25 in fees. Yeson will also ask you to cover their bank's commission fee about US$40.

ATM is best for cash however watch out for international transaction fees. My bank (TD) charges a small flat fee but some of them tack on a percentage. Chase in particular is notorious for this. The credit union (navy federal) reimburses me some of the fees.

Citibank ATM is a safe bet especially if you have a citi account.

Some credit cards also charge forex fees. I have platinum Amex which don't have those fees but some do. But Amex is not accepted everywhere. I have a Visa card but it has forex fees.

Discover apparently works in Korea wherever diners club is accepted and has no forex fees so I guess I will be using them.

My plan is to order some KRW here from my bank before I go and try an ATM when I get there.

Do notify your bank and credit card issuer of your travel dates and destination in advance of your trip as they may freeze your account if they see foreign transactions all of a sudden. It happened to me once and a phone call had to be made. Kind of difficult if you have no voice. My mom will be with me so she can call.

Quote from: iKate on May 13, 2015, 07:54:44 AM
I did a wire transfer from my credit union. It was US$25 in fees. Yeson will also ask you to cover their bank's commission fee about US$40.

Some credit cards also charge forex fees. I have platinum Amex which don't have those fees but some do. But Amex is not accepted everywhere.

My plan is to order some KRW here from my bank before I go and try an ATM when I get there.

I'll be on my own, so things have to go right. Yeson say I can pay on the day using a credit card though that does make me nervous. What happens if I get there and it doesn't work? I also have an AMEX platinum but it's the British version. I do have a Halifax Clarity card which is designed for foreign use (without fees) though once again, how can I be sure it works? I suppose I could phone Jessie with the card details and ask her if it goes through.

How much in KRW are you taking?

Quote from: Teslagirl on May 13, 2015, 03:12:15 PM
I'll be on my own, so things have to go right. Yeson say I can pay on the day using a credit card though that does make me nervous. What happens if I get there and it doesn't work? I also have an AMEX platinum but it's the British version. I do have a Halifax Clarity card which is designed for foreign use (without fees) though once again, how can I be sure it works? I suppose I could phone Jessie with the card details and ask her if it goes through.

How much in KRW are you taking?

About US$400 if I can. That will at least pay the hotel bill balance plus some extras for cabs. I am carrying more in USD plus my credit cards but that $400 will be in KRW that I get here (if possible).

Jessie said you need to swipe the card so you can't just phone them. (They pay more for card not present plus I think it has something to do with fraud rules).

If the card doesn't work? You need alternate payment. They only take cash (KRW or USD) or credit cards. I'm not sure they take Amex. They may only take visa/mc.

Quote from: iKate on May 13, 2015, 07:54:44 AM
My plan is to order some KRW here from my bank before I go and try an ATM when I get there.

Do notify your bank and credit card issuer of your travel dates and destination in advance of your trip as they may freeze your account if they see foreign transactions all of a sudden. It happened to me once and a phone call had to be made. Kind of difficult if you have no voice. My mom will be with me so she can call.

Thats exactly why I wired the money for the surgery - everything else was smaller amounts that dont ring the alarm bells in the banks.

I ordered cash to my local bank to take with me. The ordering and exchanges fees were gigantonormus - I think I paid overall 25% more more the cash than if I had used an ATM in the city and almost as much compared to taking cash with me and exchanging it in the country. Given the choice again, I would just take maybe 200 EU with me as EU and exchange it to local currenty in Seoul, but pay for surgery and hotel in advance by money transfer or credit card (e.g. booking online for the hotel) - and then look for an ATM that accepts one of my cards. I would ask at my bank before the trip though, if the cards are useable at Korean ATMs.

Quote from: Teslagirl on May 13, 2015, 03:12:15 PM
I'll be on my own, so things have to go right. Yeson say I can pay on the day using a credit card though that does make me nervous. What happens if I get there and it doesn't work? I also have an AMEX platinum but it's the British version. I do have a Halifax Clarity card which is designed for foreign use (without fees) though once again, how can I be sure it works? I suppose I could phone Jessie with the card details and ask her if it goes through.

I definitely would ask the bank if they can guarantee you that the payment in Korea will work in such a high amount. I asked my bank and they said that it "should work", but that it "might need authorization". So I skipped that risk. If they cannot guarantee me 100% that it works, I opt for money transfer some weeks in advance, then Jessie can email you when the money arrived and any small differences in the amount or the Botox can be dealt with by Credit card or in cash locally. No risk, but it costs $40 or so - it was worth it to me to not experience what happened before - that someone is at Yeson and the credit card is not working, so they have to call the bank but it is closed because of the timezone difference and then all gets complicated...

Quote from: anjaq on May 14, 2015, 08:23:35 AM
Thats exactly why I wired the money for the surgery - everything else was smaller amounts that dont ring the alarm bells in the banks.

I ordered cash to my local bank to take with me. The ordering and exchanges fees were gigantonormus - I think I paid overall 25% more more the cash than if I had used an ATM in the city and almost as much compared to taking cash with me and exchanging it in the country. Given the choice again, I would just take maybe 200 EU with me as EU and exchange it to local currenty in Seoul, but pay for surgery and hotel in advance by money transfer or credit card (e.g. booking online for the hotel) - and then look for an ATM that accepts one of my cards. I would ask at my bank before the trip though, if the cards are useable at Korean ATMs.

That's interesting. I am thinking I may just carry USD then.

I should have no problems with using my ATM card as they are Visa/Plus and I asked my main bank (Toronto Dominion). I also have an account with Navy Federal Credit Union and with there being service personnel in Korea I'm sure at least some ATMs will accept it. They do charge $1 plus 1% but I get the $1 reimbursed. But I will try to use TD for cash since I have a checking account without any foreign ATM fees.

Update for about week 11 or 12:
english (rainbow) : http://vocaroo.com/i/s17GTFAEqGns
german (nordwind): http://vocaroo.com/i/s0AJ6G0JMQb1

Both are at about 195-205 Hz according to PRAAT. It seems I am entering the phase where pitch really does go up between week 8 and 16  :D.

This was done afte a bit of voice exercises though, they seem to help a lot in getting the pitch a bit better and help to not use a pitch that is too low and actually straining on the voice.

However, I still notice that my voice is hoarse and breathy, especially after a day of chatting with friends and talking a lot generally. So it will take some more careful training plus rest periods to get this all well healed. On some days pitch goes lower, on some it is ok. Volume is not yet up by much, so I still cannot talk to someone in a bar or such, I believe this will be one of the last things that normalize to a degree in some months, but from what I heard it will not go to 100% - but something like 90% would be not much of a loss

The upper range is sometimes close to 1 note to the pre op upper range, on bad days it is 2 or 3 notes lower , when I am hoarse. So still some room to improve there as well.

Greetings

Not bad!!! I'm getting super excited as I'm about a month away.

Yeah well. I still need to work a lot on getting rid of the hoarseness and get back volume and also work on the way to speak properly. Its still the adjustment phase. I think I still sound strained and hoarse and don't get the resonance right. So its not bad, but also not good yet ;)

Hi anja. It's nice to come back and see that you are still updating your progress. Sounds like things are coming along well, and very happy to see that you are keeping a great attitude during your recovery. I think that was a key thing for me as well.

On the volume, mine has come back a lot in the second year (I am now just over 2 years p/o). Also, my voice has become a lot stronger, especially in the bar-type situation that you mentioned. People no longer have difficulty hearing me / I don't feel like I'm pushing harder to be heard. After a night of loud talking, which happens fairly infrequently, there is still occasionally a dip in pitch the day following (especially if alcohol was part of the picture). It's funny, alcohol really does seem to make a difference. I can't remember the last time I lost my voice due to loud talking at length, so that is a major plus. Lots of my friends lose their voices in those situations and I have been fine :)

Anyway, it's nice to see how you're coming along. I just wanted to stop by to wish you a continued happy recovery!

Quote from: Jennygirl on May 18, 2015, 06:13:01 AM
Hi anja. It's nice to come back and see that you are still updating your progress. Sounds like things are coming along well, and very happy to see that you are keeping a great attitude during your recovery. I think that was a key thing for me as well.

On the volume, mine has come back a lot in the second year (I am now just over 2 years p/o). Also, my voice has become a lot stronger, especially in the bar-type situation that you mentioned. People no longer have difficulty hearing me / I don't feel like I'm pushing harder to be heard. After a night of loud talking, which happens fairly infrequently, there is still occasionally a dip in pitch the day following (especially if alcohol was part of the picture). It's funny, alcohol really does seem to make a difference. I can't remember the last time I lost my voice due to loud talking at length, so that is a major plus. Lots of my friends lose their voices in those situations and I have been fine :)

Anyway, it's nice to see how you're coming along. I just wanted to stop by to wish you a continued happy recovery!

Hi Jenny, just a quick word to say that from the few videos of yours I was somehow feeling that you were a nice person, but this message confirm it, you're caring and very articulate in your wording. Kudos for you...And yes Anja is a sweety and I'm sure she will do well ;)

Quote from: Cristal Muso on May 18, 2015, 06:57:43 AM
Hi Jenny, just a quick word to say that from the few videos of yours I was somehow feeling that you were a nice person, but this message confirm it, you're caring and very articulate in your wording. Kudos for you...And yes Anja is a sweety and I'm sure she will do well ;)

So incredibly kind of you to say :D I really appreciated your comment a lot, it made me smile big and I wanted you to know! Thank you for that

I was just reading over the Voice Surgery forum and saw you are scheduled very soon for VFS with Remacle. Major congrats to you! You seem to have a good spirit about yourself as well. As I said to Anja, I think it's especially important with these procedures. Something happens when you're in a good headspace- especially with these big life-changers which force a rewiring in many ways. There will be much adaptation to go through following it, and state of mind will help you tenfold. Best of luck to you!

Quote from: Jennygirl on May 18, 2015, 07:14:40 AM
So incredibly kind of you to say :D I really appreciated your comment a lot, it made me smile big and I wanted you to know! Thank you for that

I was just reading over the Voice Surgery forum and saw you are scheduled very soon for VFS with Remacle. Major congrats to you! You seem to have a good spirit about yourself as well. As I said to Anja, I think it's especially important with these procedures. Something happens when you're in a good headspace- especially with these big life-changers which force a rewiring in many ways. There will be much adaptation to go through following it, and state of mind will help you tenfold. Best of luck to you!

I'm glad you've seen that I will have the Wendler Glottoplasty (in 17 days 9 hours and 37 minutes, what give you the impression that I'm counting? ) I'm scared so much. Funny that ! I've went thru everything 13 years ago without any fears and for this surgery I completely freak out that It might not work. I wanted to have this surgery for such a long time but couldn't find the money or a decent practician in Europe. Having said that Anja is trying to cheer me up on Skype :) ...PS I'm on Youtube too but I'm playing music (17 million views on my stuff) PM me if you're curious ;) ....Looking forward to talk to you

Jenny!!!  :) :laugh: You still exist ;)

Quote from: Jennygirl on May 18, 2015, 06:13:01 AM
Hi anja. It's nice to come back and see that you are still updating your progress. Sounds like things are coming along well, and very happy to see that you are keeping a great attitude during your recovery. I think that was a key thing for me as well.

Yes, I think its going well and I will keep updating. It probably is not going as fast and amazing as it was with you or some of the others, but its still going good and in many moments I feel very great. I am very happy I did this! Thanks to you and Sarah and Abby and the others. Are Sarah and Abby doing good as well? I did not read much of them in the voice forum anymore.
I think it is really important to play with the voice and that needs a good and fun attitude towards it. Only by playing, one can find out how it works now. Which is hard to describe, really.

QuoteOn the volume, mine has come back a lot in the second year (I am now just over 2 years p/o). Also, my voice has become a lot stronger, especially in the bar-type situation that you mentioned.

Oh that is interesting. That long post op there is still improvement? Did it come back near your pre OP levels? I hope it will come back to something near it - although I do expect some permanent loss, but thats ok.
And of course - alcohol and partying long will ruin every voice lol - I am not allowed to do that as of now and will probably not do it for a while even when I am allowed officially, but the day will come...  :D

How is it for you 2 years post op - do you still do something ? Some voice exercises occasionally - or is it all almost forgotten now? You are Dr Kims poster child - it was so funny seeing your video on the screen in his office as a demonstration on the development of the voice within the first year :)

QuoteAnyway, it's nice to see how you're coming along. I just wanted to stop by to wish you a continued happy recovery!

Thank you so much! And sorry for being a nasty bug driving you crazy before I made the decision ... :angel:

Greetings

Quote from: anjaq on May 21, 2015, 05:01:04 PM
Jenny!!!  :) :laugh: You still exist ;)
Yes, I think its going well and I will keep updating. It probably is not going as fast and amazing as it was with you or some of the others, but its still going good and in many moments I feel very great. I am very happy I did this! Thanks to you and Sarah and Abby and the others. Are Sarah and Abby doing good as well? I did not read much of them in the voice forum anymore.

I think disappearances here are frequently due in part to successful transition. Sometimes folks will inadvertently distance themselves from the trans community once they assume their natural position in society. Jessie even mentioned this to me, that it is super hard for them to connect with people after a certain amount of time. I am convinced sometimes people just forget they are even trans- lol

Quote
Oh that is interesting. That long post op there is still improvement? Did it come back near your pre OP levels? I hope it will come back to something near it - although I do expect some permanent loss, but thats ok.
And of course - alcohol and partying long will ruin every voice lol - I am not allowed to do that as of now and will probably not do it for a while even when I am allowed officially, but the day will come...  :D

Yes, lots of improvement when comparing 1 year to 2 years. Volume is the big one.

Quote
How is it for you 2 years post op - do you still do something ? Some voice exercises occasionally - or is it all almost forgotten now? You are Dr Kims poster child - it was so funny seeing your video on the screen in his office as a demonstration on the development of the voice within the first year :)

Haha, I have heard from quite a few people that he uses my videos. I should do another one now that I am at 2 years. It's pretty awesome to see so many people going for it with all the successful stories. It really means a lot to me.

Voice exercises are forgotten to me in a sense. I think the last time I ran through them must have been about a year ago ;)

Quote
Thank you so much! And sorry for being a nasty bug driving you crazy before I made the decision ... :angel:

Greetings

Don't worry about it, it wasn't because of you that I left. I just moved to a different warehouse space and have been building like a crazy woman to get things up and running. No apology necessary!

And it's good to be back :)

Hi Jenny

Yes I think it totally makes sense to dissappear into normal life. Its the goal of the whole thing in a way. I dissappeared for years after i thought all is done. And if it was not for some remarks and my voice and some other things, I might almost have forgotten it as well LOL.

Jessie does probably not contact me because I told them I dont want to be on TV when they had the TV team in the house, so I guess she assumes I dont want anything of my recordings to be public. Plus I guess my progress is not as great as that of you and Sarah, so it makes less of a great convincing promotional video :P - but lets see - maybe she wants to do a clip like that of the greek woman who had progress in the long run and is visible only in pixels in the videos.

Its interesting to hear thet the improvement goes on for 2 years - so the whole thing takes a lot longer than I assumed it would take. Ah well, at least it means one can have hope of improvement for 2 years if something is still not feeling right ;)

Its fascinating to see how your reports and videos have spurred this whole avalanche of people doing VFS now. I was at a reception of a  FFS surgery team last week with 10 people and potential or post op patients present - 3 of them including me have been at Dr Kim. Isnt that crazy? thats almost a third and I assumed there are yet not so many people in Germany who have gone there.

Wow, that is crazy!

Yeah it kinda scares me, I feel like so many people probably get this surgery thinking it's some sort of miracle. Whenever I get the chance I try to lay down the law: it's not a miracle. It takes a great deal of practice and determination to get the voice you want. Pitch is only one slice of the pie!

Well, I guess some people just know which surgeons are world class, so they meet there :P ;)

I always say its a voice supporting surgery. I still can go pretty low, and do my relaxed trained pitch voice, but its not really that comfortable anymore and it is so much easier to use higher pitches and involuntary sounds also go up in pitch - so I have much more options to us emy voice in a feminine way now that were not existing or hard to do before the surgery. But of course I have to use them, otherwise, I dont benefit from the surgery.
Some people dont get that and get stuck in their old voice post op, it takes quite some getting used to and exploring and learning the new abilities...

Well, its about 3.5 months now since the VFS at Yeson clinic and I guess I am enterning the problematic phase of the dreaded "month 4". My pitch dropped a bit, my voice is more hoarse and more breathy and I have weird sensations in the throat.
So this is how it is right now:
uncontrolled: http://vocaroo.com/i/s11u7uUJAOjd
controlled: http://vocaroo.com/i/s0ADLpm89qnt

EDIT: for comparison this is my relaxed but feminized pre op voice. Meaning I did not strain using it but modified resonance: http://vocaroo.com/i/s1o7quC65Qxj - in a more "male" version it would have been http://vocaroo.com/i/s0dXoqjbKwGm. I have made a really male sounding version but I dont know if that is really my original voice. I totally forgot how to do this properly after 15 years ;), so I will better not play it here.
I show this because in many ways my voice was "ok" before the surgery and to show the changes that happened so far and I think the recordings in my old posts in this thread are probably long ago deleted by vocaroo.

I was told to start with the medication now already, so I assume that this has something to do with the botox wearing off already.

As of now it seems that I have gotten an increase in all parameters (lowest possible pitch, average pitch relaxed/controlled) of about 30-40 Hz.

The voice exercises seem to help me with the contol of the voice. Control is not that hard but has to be done to not sound creaky or low in pitch. Interestingly singing is a lot better - less hoarseness, higher pitch with more ease... I can sing along in a group of women with a no-effort voice and not stick out at all in terms of voice, pitch, undertones,... this is really making me happy. Next step may have to be to translate the things I experience in singing along to speaking, so I dont drop into that broken parts of my voice that are hoarse and too low in pitch. Maybe my brain just has to some more adjusting to the new voice and still tries to use it in the old way which gives me a lower pitch and more hoeaseness...?

This is an interesting observation I made - my voice seems to do a lot better, gets less hoarse and strained when I use an elevated pitch in the target pitch range (around 200-220 Hz) - so it seems my voice wants to be used in that range, but my muscles or my brain dont consider it relaxed to use that pitch range, so to me it feels like I have to consciously elevate my voice into that optimal pitch range. If I dont do that, my voice drops below that in the lower female range of 170 Hz maybe, (160-190) and then it seems to get strained more by that. I sure hope this will resolve itself somehow and my brain and vocal muscles can accept the new optimal pitch range as natural and relaxed, so I dont have to think about it anymore.

Cool, thanks for the update Anja!

I noticed similar things, but as time progressed my lower range did strengthen a lot. I think it may have something to do with lower pitches being more harsh on the vocal cords (slower and more amplified movement) which probably increases inflammation- leading to swelling? I dunno, just a hunch. As time went on the hoarseness diminished to none, and now my full range does not wear my voice out any more than normal talking did pre-op.

It sounds like you are right on track :)

Oh and by the way, you sound great to me in both recordings!

Sounding good!

You sound really good Anjaq. Much clearer than me. Wouldn't ever guess this wasn't a cis voice.

Quote from: Jennygirl on June 02, 2015, 05:56:24 AM
I noticed similar things, but as time progressed my lower range did strengthen a lot. I think it may have something to do with lower pitches being more harsh on the vocal cords (slower and more amplified movement) which probably increases inflammation- leading to swelling? I dunno, just a hunch. As time went on the hoarseness diminished to none, and now my full range does not wear my voice out any more than normal talking did pre-op.

It sounds like you are right on track :)

Oh and by the way, you sound great to me in both recordings!

Thanks, Jenny. Yes I think the lower pitches with more "mass" involved and more chest-voice dominated sound are harder on the vocal golds. But good to hear this clears up eventually - how long did it take for you?

I guess I am progressing ok - as I said, in many ways I am happy with the result so far, I still do have some hopes on improvements - some will just take time (hoarseness and breathiness) - some I need maybe a bit of luck (hopefully some further pitch increase until month 6)

Quote from: seattlesarah on June 02, 2015, 07:05:55 AM
You sound really good Anjaq. Much clearer than me. Wouldn't ever guess this wasn't a cis voice.

I edited the post above to show my pre op voice in comparison. I think now it is definitely more feminine sounding, even though pitch has not increased into what Dr Kim defined as female range (he seems to aim at >200 Hz average).

I hate that dreaded month 4, especially as it started for me after just 3.5 months!

How are you doing Anja? You sound a little down?

Love,

Sarah.

Well - it is such an up and down. today it seems my voice was pretty ok and I was happy, on other days I struggle a lot to dinf the right way to use it, then there are days when it just does not work and hoarseness takes over... I was told , month 4 pretty rough and it seems to be true. But when it works ok by good luck, a neat fluke or something, the voice is really good - so I think there is potential, I just have to find access to it...

Quote from: anjaq on June 13, 2015, 05:53:33 PM
Well - it is such an up and down. today it seems my voice was pretty ok and I was happy, on other days I struggle a lot to dinf the right way to use it, then there are days when it just does not work and hoarseness takes over... I was told , month 4 pretty rough and it seems to be true. But when it works ok by good luck, a neat fluke or something, the voice is really good - so I think there is potential, I just have to find access to it...

My own voice now also seems to be in a period where it is struggling to get up in the higher tones.  I don't know if this is part of the phase where it is finding it's place. The only thing to do us to keep at the exercises and get it looked at regularly to rule out other causes.

GR

I am not sure. I actually never had much struggle to reach higher tones, but at various times it was taking more or less effort to reach them and also the relaxed pitch shifts up and down a bit. right now I feel I have somehow two relaxed pitches - one is very low , like C3, the other is in the target range at the G3 or A3- The latter is the one that comes when I do the lip trills or humming in a relaxed way, so I think this is the one I should try and catch and grab and hold on to it ;)

I also seem to have that break between two pitches one at 165 and the other at 220. I don't know what's going on in between. Mine is far from healed.

Having some fun with the rainbow passage: http://vocaroo.com/i/s0jJUHlsR24g LOL ;)


...

and here more seriously the todays voice when trying to be fully resonant. It lowers pitch if I really allow more resonance but what the heck, eliminating resonance is not a good idea either. http://vocaroo.com/i/s08P9BUPe1C0 - PRAAT says it is at something like 170 or 180 Hz on average. I tseems to bottom out at about 150 Hz (E3), the highest peaks are above 250 Hz (C4), so thats a bit less than an octave of pitch variation. I personally think, 170 Hz is too low, still, but pitch still is unstable - I have hours in which it goes up in the G3 or even A3 range and then lower again like this into the F3 range - but I still need to find a way to properly use resonance in a feminine way that works with the new voice in a supportive way and not feels like it is lowering it.

LOL!  Too funny :)

Dear Anja,

You were concerned about using your voice in a classroom, which is something I worry about as well. Are you teaching now? Does this inconsistency cause you problems when you do have to talk to a class?

Sarah.

Honestly I dont know how people will perceive my voice in a class. I noticed that after 90 min of talking or so, my voice went weaker, less stable, dropped in pitch a bit, we had to close the windows to avoid noise, I had to drink some water several times, I took "Gelorevoice" - so I managed to do the 120 minutes without sounding awful, I believe.

Quote from: anjaq on June 15, 2015, 03:50:50 PM
Honestly I dont know how people will perceive my voice in a class. I noticed that after 90 min of talking or so, my voice went weaker, less stable, dropped in pitch a bit, we had to close the windows to avoid noise, I had to drink some water several times, I took "Gelorevoice" - so I managed to do the 120 minutes without sounding awful, I believe.

I think talking for 90 minutes is remarkable. I hope I'll be able to do that when I start teaching again.

In that amusing 'rainbow passage' recording you did, your voice went far higher than anything I can do. Did you have that sort of range pre-operatively? (It was really high!)

Sarah.

Quote from: Teslagirl on June 15, 2015, 05:02:35 PM
I think talking for 90 minutes is remarkable. I hope I'll be able to do that when I start teaching again.
In that amusing 'rainbow passage' recording you did, your voice went far higher than anything I can do. Did you have that sort of range pre-operatively? (It was really high!)

Well actually the lecture was 120 minutes and it went well. As I said, I dont know if it sounded always that great, but it was ok, I did not have any huge issues afterwards - so apparently after 3.5 months its ok to do such things.

And yes - I did have a very huge vocal range before the surgery - I had about 3.5 octaves range - going from E2 to A5. I lost a bit at both ends now and presently it is A2 to G5. In each case the very upper notes are very squeezed and not really fit for speaking or singing though ;)

So I dont want anyone to think that this surgery magically increases the upper pitch range by an octave or so - although in some peopl eit may lead to some increase.

Sadly, I have no prior data on this, but Post-VFS my exhalation speed is at 111%. So it is excellent and there are no hints of an obstruction of my airways. They calculated this from my age, gender and body height and I had to blow through a little device as fast and hard as I can. The volume within one second was 3.6l and apparently this is very good. So I think this is a good hint for people who are worried about sports activity or playing musical instruments after a glottoplasty.

Quote from: anjaq on June 16, 2015, 07:06:51 AM
Sadly, I have no prior data on this, but Post-VFS my exhalation speed is at 111%. So it is excellent and there are no hints of an obstruction of my airways. They calculated this from my age, gender and body height and I had to blow through a little device as fast and hard as I can. The volume within one second was 3.6l and apparently this is very good. So I think this is a good hint for people who are worried about sports activity or playing musical instruments after a glottoplasty.

Thanks for sharing, great news indeed!

Hello Anja.

I have just one simple question.

With all that you now know about the results of your surgery, the ups and downs, the pluses and minuses, would you still go ahead if you were making the decision today?

In other words, was it worthwhile to you personally?

Thank you,

Sarah.

To be honest - i would like to wait until the healing is complete after a year to make a final assessment. As of now, it seems to be good - my voice is feminine - i dont worry about the low pitches with male undertones anymore. I feel it is much more "MY" voice than before. To the point I tend to forget how that other voice sounded like and felt like. The only downsides currently (at not even 4 months post op, mind you!) are that it is weak, sometimes breathy or slightly hoarse, that I get a weird sensation on the throatwhen using my voice a lot and that I think my totally relaxed pitch is still a bi low. But I can only comment if those will eventually be issues when the healing is complete. If it stays that way, I would be inclined to say it is a hard choice - its quite a tradeoff then. But I am confident that it will improve and then it is a clear yes to my decision to have the VFS with Dr Kim.

on the exhalation speed thing, I too wondered about air obstruction from surgery.  I can hear the constriction but I am able to work out and perform at similar levels to my pre-surgery routines.

I have gotten my reply from Yeson about my voice file that I sent in some days ago when I started the Clonazepam. Its F0 is a little bit over 160 Hz. So I was told to keep taking the pills and do my exercises... I have the Clonazepam now for 2 weeks. I did a quick check by recording my normal speaking voice while I was in a conversation today - its F0 was between 160 and 170 Hz. I think in some moments it can be higher, but when I am not controlling it, it seems to stick to that range for now. Sooo - more exercises, more pills, more patience patience patience - I know for some the pitch increase just happens after many months...

Quote from: ReDucks on June 18, 2015, 03:27:55 PM
on the exhalation speed thing, I too wondered about air obstruction from surgery.  I can hear the constriction but I am able to work out and perform at similar levels to my pre-surgery routines.

I'm a bit anxious now as I have surgery booked for the 20th July. Both from yours and Anja's posts I'm not entirely sure I'm doing the right thing.
Can I ask you what I asked Anja? If you had to make a decision now, in the light of your knowledge of the results, would you still go ahead?

Thanks,

Sarah.

Quote from: Teslagirl on June 18, 2015, 05:01:03 PM
I'm a bit anxious now as I have surgery booked for the 20th July. Both from yours and Anja's posts I'm not entirely sure I'm doing the right thing.
Can I ask you what I asked Anja? If you had to make a decision now, in the light of your knowledge of the results, would you still go ahead?

Thanks,

Sarah.

I would have the surgery again in an instant!  It has really helped me achieve a truly female pitch, but it has taken voice therapy with a therapist who works with trans women to achieve a feminine voice.  So many old habits to unlearn, and new habits to form.    As others have said, don't expect too much, you still have to work at achieving a feminine speech pattern and find some way to overcome resonance. 

I know that the surgery worked - higher pitches are sooooo much easier now and just come naturally in many situations. If I say "good bye" to someone its incredibly high and feminine - or if I laugh - or sing along with women and dont have the male undertones. My voice has a totally different "ring" to it now. All of this is totally great and makes me incredibly happy - I just want to say that, because I tend to talk about the remaining problems more than the successes. Just for those things, the surgery is already worth it totally. My voice does not feel to me like a male voice anymore. The areas I do struggle with are the low pitch in everyday speaking situations and the hoarseness/breathiness mostly:

But what is kind of unexpected for me is that I was said to have a female resonance pattern before the surgery, so I sounded feminine in my voice to most. Post op, this seems not not be the right thing to do anymore. I still do it - but it puts me in a similar pitch range as pre op - it will still sound female as before the surgery, but I dont make the most out of the pitch gain with it. I start to think that the goal of the exercises from Yeson is to find me a new feminine resonance pattern (Yeson say "phonation pattern" and tell me I am still using the wrong one). In my perception that pattern seems to be odd and artificial since it seems to basically be the head voice or singing voice that is trained with the Exercises (starting at C4 in pitch and going up to G4). Of course I can talk softly in that range and sound very feminine, but it is quite a conscious act, when I dont watch out, I just drop in my chest voice and am then in the neutral pitch range. I cannot really use that head voice trained in the exercises for regular speech - it is too high. So I consider seeing another voice therapist in my city and see if she can help me to find a good way - but she was really warning me a lot about voice surgeries, so I am not sure she is willing to work with a post op patient seriously - or if she will basically just do something else and whenever something does not work out blame it on the surgery...

I did not expect to be among those VFS patients who had these issues - I feel there are two groups - some who get the new phonation pattern very fast (like Jennygirl, Sarah, Olivia, Jamie, Amy) and others who struggle with this for a longer time. I was hoping to be better in getting this right, given how much I was working on my voice pre op, but maybe its a mental thing, maybe its just still the healing process - I dont know. The variation in how fast the success of this surgery plays out is so huge - 2 months to 12 months. I guess there are many factors involved.

Again - I am happy with many aspects about the surgery but am just mainly angry about myself for not getting how to use this properly. Its like getting a new musical instrument and occasionally I totally hit the right way to use it and it sounds great and then most of the time I fumble around with a slow learning curve  ;) - I should have done this when I was 25 and my brain was not so rigid already...


Oh and the main reason I said I cannot say if I would do this surgery again is: If I would somehow not learn the new phonation pattern, I guess I would have to consider if this still works out well - if the breathiness and hoarseness would persist, I would maybe say that I could also have done the surgery locally on insurance. The main reason to choose Yeson was that I think they do produce a lot less of these dysphonia issues than local doctors. So that is why I said that technically I have to wait until the first 6-12 months are over to see if that can be confirmed. I am confident that it will be , though - everyone else seems to have experienced that dysphonia stuff and it has cleared up with time :) - while locally the patients often reported the dysphonia to persist in the long run, so I am very confident that this was the best choice despite the hickups I have in some aspects. Always remember: Its not even 4 Months! Thats far from the point where my voice is supposed to be healed, so I feel a bit overwhelmed by such a question.

Quote from: anjaq on June 19, 2015, 04:07:45 AM
   
So I consider seeing another voice therapist in my city and see if she can help me to find a good way - but she was really warning me a lot about voice surgeries, so I am not sure she is willing to work with a post op patient seriously - or if she will basically just do something else and whenever something does not work out blame it on the surgery...
  - I dont know. The variation in how fast the success of this surgery plays out is so huge - 2 months to 12 months. I guess there are many factors involved.

My voice therapist has said that we should disregard most of my previous speech therapy as it is no longer valid. Having had VFS has meant we have started again with the basics of relaxation and breathing. Post VFS is a whole new ball game and requires looking at speech therapy from a new angle.

But what angle is that and who is best qualified to help there? I think even fewer voice therapists have experience with this situation than with a "male to female voice conversion"...

Quote from: thegreenrabbit on June 19, 2015, 04:22:30 AM
My voice therapist has said that we should disregard most of my previous speech therapy as it is no longer valid. Having had VFS has meant we have started again with the basics of relaxation and breathing. Post VFS is a whole new ball game and requires looking at speech therapy from a new angle.

Makes sense, which is why I am having surgery first and therapy after. I don't want to have to unlearn and re-learn.

Quote from: anjaq on June 19, 2015, 04:55:41 AM
But what angle is that and who is best qualified to help there? I think even fewer voice therapists have experience with this situation than with a "male to female voice conversion"...

I actually think that the best therapist to have post VFS is a speech therapist who also deals with professional singers. I don't think that it should necessarly be someone who deals with trans voice.

Actually my voice therapist has a lot of non trans people, and said she is currently not doing any trans related exercises with me. I am not sure if this is so perfect - I somehow need to find my new voice and not improve my old voice. I am confused as to what to aim for. What she does now is mostly relaxation exercises and airflow exercises. I think it is similar to what I saw at least on youtube in the videos that are for singers. So maybe that is just the right track. I clearly can use my upper range very nicely, I am not sure what is happening to the lower parts below G3 or A3 ... I somehow assumed that this would be my speaking range - but maybe I actually have to aim higher because that range is kind of low when I use the head voice but is a bit straining on the voice if I use the chest voice - and also the voice tends to drop even deeper in the chest voice.

Excuse my babbling. I dont really understand right now what is going on with the voice and cannot really describe it. I will just have to try, experiment and do the exercises.

Yes. Air flow and relaxation, where relaxation is vital.

Quote from: anjaq on June 19, 2015, 01:18:56 PM
I clearly can use my upper range very nicely, I am not sure what is happening to the lower parts below G3 or A3 ... I somehow assumed that this would be my speaking range - but maybe I actually have to aim higher because that range is kind of low when I use the head voice but is a bit straining on the voice if I use the chest voice - and also the voice tends to drop even deeper in the chest voice.

Anja, have your work colleagues noticed the difference?
I have just said I will be having vocal chord surgery and let them assume it's due to all the talking I've done in my career.

Some noticed a difference, others not so much. Those who noticed described my voice of being "brighter" ( meaning probably it has less dark undertones and a different ting to it). There wee no comments about pitch change though, so basically I think the story was ok - people know I had a surgery but do not know what exactly it was, just that I had vocal fold asymmetry and inclomplete closure and some over shot growth there. Basicall I still sound very much like before the surgery in terms of how I speak or sound like - the changes most noticeably are those undertones that changed and a little bit of pitch increase. Its not radical change, so people who dont know I had the surgery seem not to notice...

I just booked my flight!

Sarah.

Quote from: anjaq on June 19, 2015, 04:28:31 PM
Some noticed a difference, others not so much. Those who noticed described my voice of being "brighter" ( meaning probably it has less dark undertones and a different ting to it). There wee no comments about pitch change though, so basically I think the story was ok - people know I had a surgery but do not know what exactly it was, just that I had vocal fold asymmetry and inclomplete closure and some over shot growth there. Basicall I still sound very much like before the surgery in terms of how I speak or sound like - the changes most noticeably are those undertones that changed and a little bit of pitch increase. Its not radical change, so people who dont know I had the surgery seem not to notice...

Anja, I think you mentioned that your vocal folds didn't close properly so that your voice sounded breathy? Did you managed to fix that before you went, or do you think the surgery helped with that aspect? My voice therapist thinks the lack of full closure of my vocal folds is due to one being thicker than the other. She is dubious about Yeson and thinks the surgery might make it worse. Do you know if Yeson can fix problems like this, in addition to their pitch raising surgery?

Hi Sara. Well. I had a double incomplete glottal closure at the beginning. anterior and posterior. I managed with voice therapy to close the anderior gap and reduce the posterior gap a bit. Post op I still do have the posterior gap. My voice specialists here say that it is something that many women have, so they say not to worry about that too much, but we are doing more therapy to fix it, in order to get me more strength in my voice. I dont know if the surgery changed a lot there. Dr kim did a correction of a vocal fold asymmetry though, so at least he seems to think that its possible to improve some issues in addition to pitch with the surgery. I will have examination again at the end of the month, so I can see if the gap has changed in any way or if there is some other issue. Sinc eI am still recovering from the surgery, right now I would say that the surgery made the gap and the breathiness worse - but thats to be excpected given the official healing time is 12 months. If in 8 months the examination will show that my gap has improved, it may well be that the surgery helped with that - or that I finally managed to find a relaxed voice that does not cause my muscles to form that gap anymore.

And congrats on your booking :) - So you are almost on the way then :)

Quote from: Teslagirl on June 19, 2015, 06:46:54 PM
I just booked my flight!

Sarah.

Good going, Sarah!

I will be there this week, flying out on Tuesday (US/Eastern time) and arriving in Seoul on Wednesday evening (Seoul time).

Can't wait, but really I can't wait to get over it so I can get back on my E and begin the healing process.

Quote from: iKate on June 20, 2015, 05:18:05 PM

I will be there this week, flying out on Tuesday (US/Eastern time) and arriving in Seoul on Wednesday evening (Seoul time).

Can't wait, but really I can't wait to get over it so I can get back on my E and begin the healing process.

That's great Kate! Where are you staying? I don't know whether to stay at the Phil House and be more autonomous  with regard to cooking and storing ice cream(!) or have an easier life by staying in a hotel close to the clinic. Quite frankly, Korea scares me a little as I don't know the language and the MERS thing is possibly more of a danger if we used public transport a lot.

Quote from: Teslagirl on June 20, 2015, 06:10:24 PM
That's great Kate! Where are you staying? I don't know whether to stay at the Phil House and be more autonomous  with regard to cooking and storing ice cream(!) or have an easier life by staying in a hotel close to the clinic. Quite frankly, Korea scares me a little as I don't know the language and the MERS thing is possibly more of a danger if we used public transport a lot.

I'm staying at Phil House.

Quote from: anjaq on June 20, 2015, 05:14:29 PM
Hi Sara. Well. I had a double incomplete glottal closure at the beginning. anterior and posterior. I managed with voice therapy to close the anderior gap and reduce the posterior gap a bit. Post op I still do have the posterior gap. My voice specialists here say that it is something that many women have, so they say not to worry about that too much, but we are doing more therapy to fix it, in order to get me more strength in my voice. I dont know if the surgery changed a lot there. Dr kim did a correction of a vocal fold asymmetry though, so at least he seems to think that its possible to improve some issues in addition to pitch with the surgery. I will have examination again at the end of the month, so I can see if the gap has changed in any way or if there is some other issue. Sinc eI am still recovering from the surgery, right now I would say that the surgery made the gap and the breathiness worse - but thats to be excpected given the official healing time is 12 months. If in 8 months the examination will show that my gap has improved, it may well be that the surgery helped with that - or that I finally managed to find a relaxed voice that does not cause my muscles to form that gap anymore.

That's really interesting Anja. It's good to know that he takes an interest in other structural issues than just pitch; it gives me more confidence they might consider the whole of my vocal health. Thanks  so much for always answering my sometimes odd questions!

Quote from: anjaq on June 20, 2015, 05:14:29 PM
And congrats on your booking :) - So you are almost on the way then :)

Yes, nearly there though it's very scary for me as I'll be on my own and the MERS virus thing is in the news a lot. Where did you stay Anja?

I stayed at Phil House. It was ok - not far from the subway. maybe 15-30 min with the Taxi to the clinic depending on traffic. I never cooked really but we had the fridge full of ice cream and sandwhich and leftovers from last days takeout and such. Also we used the washing machine to have fresh clothes. I think in summer its more fun there since there will be more guests in the common living room downstairs and they do rooftop BBQ.
The MERS thing is not good - One of the last things you would want with a throat surgery is a throat sickness (not to mention the risk of even more serious consequences). In Korea most people are worried about hygiene though. A lot wear face masks - either to protect against dust or infection or to protect others from their infections. Make sure to get the best one there with the smallest filter size and just use it daily - it helps a lot also against the asian dust, the exhaust from diesel engines etc. I carried a little desinfectant spray with me at all times so if I had to touch something in the subway or public restrooms, I could just spray my hands with it afterwards. I think in the present situation there, maybe a Taxi is a good option then to go to the clinic - its not expensive and you need to be at the clinic only 3 times. But taking the Taxi from the airport is expensive. And you probably want to go sightseeing. If you do it on your own, its usually best to use the subway, but they also have bus tours, meaning you spend the whole day with the same people in a bus and walking around, so the infection risk may be less. But I would not get overly paranoid about it - otherwise it would ruin your stay there. Just be hygienic, desinfect your hands and maybe avoid the subway in rush hour...

Dr Kim can take into account a lot of things, but I think what he regularly does in this surgery is to look at asymmetry and vocal tremors/hyperfunction. If you have nodules, he probably could treat them at the same time as well.

Voice update today after the exercises - which seem to help me a lot finding a proper way to use the voice - it usually is better right after them.
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0hVeCivz9d7
this time a recording in German again

Its well above 200 Hz, in some sections its even 240 Hz average. Crazy :) :D

Quote from: anjaq on June 21, 2015, 04:52:07 PM
Voice update today after the exercises - which seem to help me a lot finding a proper way to use the voice - it usually is better right after them.
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0hVeCivz9d7
this time a recording in German again

Its well above 200 Hz, in some sections its even 240 Hz average. Crazy :) :D

Sounds terrific!

Quote from: kwala on June 21, 2015, 05:34:22 PM
Sounds terrific!

Sounds really good. Probably your best to date.

Quote from: anjaq on June 21, 2015, 04:52:07 PM
Voice update today after the exercises - which seem to help me a lot finding a proper way to use the voice - it usually is better right after them.
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0hVeCivz9d7
this time a recording in German again

Its well above 200 Hz, in some sections its even 240 Hz average. Crazy :) :D

I wish my Deutsch was up to scratch but you sound superb!

Aww - thanks all. Yes I think I am definitely improving :)

Quote from: anjaq on June 21, 2015, 04:52:07 PM
Its well above 200 Hz, in some sections its even 240 Hz average. Crazy :) :D

You sound really good Anja!

I'm not really sure if anyone will be able to help me with this question. As you know I'm booked in for Yeson but I have a loose back tooth. It is still usable which is why I haven't had it out. Does anyone think this will be a problem for Yeson?

Thanks,

Sarah.

Tough one - in what way can it be loose but still useable? Can it be fixed before you go for the surgery? Otherwise you might have the risk of it falling out during the procedure. They specifically ask for loose teeth and I am not sure what happens if you say that you have issues there - if you can just sign it off and then live with a lost tooth in the worst case or if they will cancel the surgery because of the risk of swallowing a tooth that comes loose during surgery. I think you have 2 options - not mention it at all and take the risk onto yourself (signing that you have healthy teeth when they give you that sheet to sign) - or ask Jessie specifically if it would prevent a surgery and if she says that it could prevent the surgery, find a dentist who can fix it somehow...

Quote from: anjaq on June 23, 2015, 07:52:37 AM
Tough one - in what way can it be loose but still useable? Can it be fixed before you go for the surgery? Otherwise you might have the risk of it falling out during the procedure. They specifically ask for loose teeth and I am not sure what happens if you say that you have issues there - if you can just sign it off and then live with a lost tooth in the worst case or if they will cancel the surgery because of the risk of swallowing a tooth that comes loose during surgery. I think you have 2 options - not mention it at all and take the risk onto yourself (signing that you have healthy teeth when they give you that sheet to sign) - or ask Jessie specifically if it would prevent a surgery and if she says that it could prevent the surgery, find a dentist who can fix it somehow...

Loose teeth is a question that they always ask. It does not mean that they won't do surgery, it just means that they will take precautions....in any event ask them up front...you may be fine.

Thanks for the replies about my loose tooth. The nerve is apparently dead as I feel no pain. It does wobble, but I can bite down on it and it does the job a tooth normally does. I'll email Jessie again.

Thanks again,

Sarah

There was one woman on here who actually had that issue - she lost a loose tooth or filling or something during the surgery and she actually swallowed it during surgery, so no one noticed. It was a big deal since she could not really tell the Dr afterwards what was going on and they could not take the responsability for it, maybe that is why they now specifically emphasize this as a potential issue so much

They can put a mouth guard.

Quote from: iKate on June 24, 2015, 03:46:41 PM
They can put a mouth guard.

That's interesting. Where did you hear it?

Sarah

Quote from: Teslagirl on June 24, 2015, 04:29:51 PM
That's interesting. Where did you hear it?

Sarah

It's standard practice for endoscopy if there are teeth concerns.

Sh*t! No rooms available in Phil House for the 20th July!! (Sorry to post in several places! nI'm ow officially desperate for advice on accommodation.

Sarah

Well, there is still that hotel option that Yeson gives out, right? Princess Hotel, I believe? Or just check Tripadvisor etc - it really does not matter which hotel you take - as long as it is in the city somewhere. The subway will get you anywhere rather fast and you can always take a taxi.

Quote from: anjaq on June 25, 2015, 06:33:12 AM
Well, there is still that hotel option that Yeson gives out, right? Princess Hotel, I believe? Or just check Tripadvisor etc - it really does not matter which hotel you take - as long as it is in the city somewhere. The subway will get you anywhere rather fast and you can always take a taxi.

Thanks Anja. I think I have a room at Phil House though the person emailing hasn't got very good English. He said it was a 'trp room' which after some thought I think must mean 'triple room', so depending on how big they are, I may be rattling around a bit.

Sarah.

A Triple room is ok, they are just a little bit larger than the twin rooms. and a bit more expensive. Make sure he does not give you a bed in a triple room filled with 2 other people!

Quote from: anjaq on June 25, 2015, 05:50:22 PM
A Triple room is ok, they are just a little bit larger than the twin rooms. and a bit more expensive. Make sure he does not give you a bed in a triple room filled with 2 other people!

Good point! I'll get clarification.

I think that's what I have. It's a double bed and a single.

So, I got another rather confusing reply from Jessie about my questions regarding my voice issues - That I can still reach the G2 seems to not worry them, I am supposed to just wait. But what I cannot really get clarity about is what voice pattern to use for the exercises. I guess I will have to trust my local voice therapist to see how she can handle this. Basically the issue is - the Yeson exercises start at the C4 - but apparently my voice break is extremely low, so it is right in that range. I am not supposed to use "falsetto" for the exercises - I can only assume they mean head voice by that because I dont have any real falsetto sounding voice pattern. If I use full chest voice though, they say its a male phonation pattern that I should not use either. So I can try using my trained chest voice variation, but this is not healthy sounding usually - it has hoarseness or breathiness in it and some weird diplophonia - I can use it only for the range up to the C4 and it is not really nice. But maybe thats the whole point - to train that part of my voice again, even if it is way lower than the C4-G4 range they are proposing in the exercises. I guess I dont even have to go much beyong the D4 then because that is already over the break. At the same time she tells me to train my upper voice range and not use the low voice range. Oh and I am not supposed to do the exercises if my voice sounds hoarse or if it hurts. So I am feeling like I am facing a dilemma - I cannot do the exercises if I follow all these rules and without the exercises, no improvement will come.  ???  ???  ???

Also the way it sounded, if I do the exercises, the voice break supposedly moves up? I thought this would be impossible, I thought what I can do is to make the break less audible, but not to change its position.  ???  ???

The hoarseness and all that apparently comes from the vocal tremor, so I really consider asking around about surgeons here who can treat vocal tremors with Botox again. I wish Yeson offered a Skype-Video speech therapy session to analyze and then exercise the voice in the right way at least once in a while.

In everyday life, my voice is doing fine - its feminine, I dont think I will ever get misgendered again by it - I was told by 2 people that its better than in the rainbow-recordings. So it was very liberating to have the surgery in respect of the gender issue and of the way how it feels to me, it boosts my self-esteem a lot.  ;D  :) But it sounds hoarse and breaks whenever I switch between higher and lower pitch while speaking (using a normal female voice melody), which bugs me.

Quote from: anjaq on June 26, 2015, 05:08:50 AM
So, I got another rather confusing reply from Jessie about my questions regarding my voice issues -

Yes, I find emails from people in Korea are not as direct as we might expect in the West and it can be confusing.

Quote from: anjaq on June 26, 2015, 05:08:50 AM
So I can try using my trained chest voice variation, but this is not healthy sounding usually - it has hoarseness or breathiness in it and some weird diplophonia

I've heard this double note in some other Yeson patients. It did worry me, but my feeling is it is something which goes away.

Quote from: anjaq on June 26, 2015, 05:08:50 AM
The hoarseness and all that apparently comes from the vocal tremor, so I really consider asking around about surgeons here who can treat vocal tremors with Botox again. I wish Yeson offered a Skype-Video speech therapy session to analyze and then exercise the voice in the right way at least once in a while.

But you don't want to keep having botox do you Anja?

Quote from: anjaq on June 26, 2015, 05:08:50 AM
In everyday life, my voice is doing fine - its feminine, I dont think I will ever get misgendered again by it - I was told by 2 people that its better than in the rainbow-recordings. So it was very liberating to have the surgery in respect of the gender issue and of the way how it feels to me, it boosts my self-esteem a lot.  ;D  :) But it sounds hoarse and breaks whenever I switch between higher and lower pitch while speaking (using a normal female voice melody), which bugs me.

This is very positive Anja. I'm sure it will settle down with time. Have you asked Jenny and the others who had the surgery some time ago about it? It might be useful to get their perspective.

Quote from: iKate on June 26, 2015, 01:29:11 AM
I think that's what I have. It's a double bed and a single.

How will you be paying for the room Kate?

Quote from: Teslagirl on June 28, 2015, 01:03:36 PM
But you don't want to keep having botox do you Anja?

This is very positive Anja. I'm sure it will settle down with time. Have you asked Jenny and the others who had the surgery some time ago about it? It might be useful to get their perspective.

Well, if the tremors are causing my voice to be bad, I'd rather have Botox than take Clonazepam all the time - I also dont think the Clonazepam is as effective as the Botox.

Well I think most who had the surgery keep saying that it takes time. I bothered some of them occasionally but I think I am being a bit annoying by asking about this all the time, so I think I should not ask so much and rather just wait until things are healing. Maybe it just falls into place after a while - for about 3/4 who have been to Yeson and written about it here that seems to have been the case - but for some it takes a while longer. Its all kind of things that seem to happen - I have to unlearn a lot after 17 years - I have to learn something new - maybe only I can do that without much help.

Quote from: anjaq on June 28, 2015, 01:50:15 PM
I have to unlearn a lot after 17 years - I have to learn something new - maybe only I can do that without much help.

That is a bit daunting. I'll have to unlearn 30 years of control... I'm not sure I'll be able to do it!

Quote from: anjaq on June 28, 2015, 01:50:15 PM
Well, if the tremors are causing my voice to be bad, I'd rather have Botox than take Clonazepam all the time - I also dont think the Clonazepam is as effective as the Botox.

Well I think most who had the surgery keep saying that it takes time. I bothered some of them occasionally but I think I am being a bit annoying by asking about this all the time, so I think I should not ask so much and rather just wait until things are healing. Maybe it just falls into place after a while - for about 3/4 who have been to Yeson and written about it here that seems to have been the case - but for some it takes a while longer. Its all kind of things that seem to happen - I have to unlearn a lot after 17 years - I have to learn something new - maybe only I can do that without much help.

I don't believe they will be annoyed at all. We all help each other in all sorts of ways don't we?
In all the voice samples I've heard from you, you sound great. Is it possible for you to upload your voice when you do have these tremors?

Sarah

Quote from: Teslagirl on June 28, 2015, 01:04:54 PM
How will you be paying for the room Kate?

They took prepayment in cash. Actually I had to put 50% via PayPal before arrival and the balance in ₩ when I got there.

I dont think the tremors are episodic. I think they are just always causing my voice to be a bit breathy or break a bit at some notes - or cause some hoarseness. Its not so audible in the recordings though, but in real life my voice seems to be on one side better, but also more hoarse sounding.

Regarding Phil House, I did the same - I did a prepayment of 50% to make the reservation and payed the rest in cash, but I could probably have paid the rest with Creditcard, which would have been cheaper.

Quote from: anjaq on June 28, 2015, 03:35:36 PM
Regarding Phil House, I did the same - I did a prepayment of 50% to make the reservation and payed the rest in cash, but I could probably have paid the rest with Creditcard, which would have been cheaper.

The guy at the front desk cringed when I pulled out a credit card and asked me for cash.

In retrospect I would have probably enjoyed a hotel in the city better but Phil House is not too bad. Credit card would have been cheaper but the difference is like $1-$2

Quote from: iKate on June 28, 2015, 08:51:05 PM
The guy at the front desk cringed when I pulled out a credit card and asked me for cash.

In retrospect I would have probably enjoyed a hotel in the city better but Phil House is not too bad. Credit card would have been cheaper but the difference is like $1-$2

Could you expand on why it might have been better to have stayed in a hotel Kate? It's probably not too late for me to rebook, but then I probably won't be able to cook for myself if I stay in a hotel.

Sarah.

Quote from: Teslagirl on June 29, 2015, 06:39:30 AM
Could you expand on why it might have been better  to have stayed in a hotel Kate? It's probably not too late for me to rebook, but then I probably won't be able to cook for myself if I stay in a hotel.

Sarah.

I collect points for loyalty programs like SPG and HHonors. Also airline miles. Also it would have been closer plus hotels do more stuff for you. Here at Phil house you have to do your own housekeeping for example. Also everything seems far, like a long subway ride.

That said, if your main mission here is yeson then Phil house is perfect.

It's cheap so I'm not really complaining.

I think Phil House is more for those who also likes backpacking, booking holiday flats etc instead of booking luxurious hotels ;)

No, in all seriousness - Phil House is more like a mix between a hotel and a holiday flat. So you have your own stove, washing machine, fridge - but there is only few cleaning and little breakfast. But its cheap (especially if you are travelling by two) and they have barbeques and such. If you have the money and dont want to cook yourself, I guess you have a wide choice of good hotels that will offer more services and are closer to the shopping districts in Meyongdong or Insadong.

For me the main reason was acually the money - I had company and we paid about 600 EU or so for the whole stay for 2 people. My credit was pretty much maxed out with the surgery, flights, accomodation, food and some souveniers. If I had 1000 or 2000 EU more to spare without going into debt, I might just have taken some nice full service hotel, too

Here is a different standard text I read today - I dont like the recording much - i have to concentrate on reading and misread a few times. Average pitch is about 175 Hz. My impression is that my voice suffers a bit from the heat wave of >30°C here.
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1gYdptmCnow

Here are pictures of my last voice examination: http://imgur.com/a/0FFi9

What is visible is that the suture healed well, no scarring, in one of the Photos one can see in green the suture threads. But also visible is that I still seem to have vocal tremor and asymmetry - the vocal volds don't close at the top (posterior) and in some of the phonations, one can see that the vocal folds dont close in the middle either but are asymmetric or doing an "O"-shape. I am a bit at a loss what causes this, I sent the video to Yeson and lets see what they say.

That is a real puzzle but my best guess is that tissue on the inter edge for some reason is lose and the tissue backing it is tight. This allow the edge tissue to "flap in the breeze" much like a lose sail on a boat would do. If that's the case, any surgery to correct it would be rather complex and I am not sure it would be worth the risk.

Well, I still hope it is just part of the healing process - some parts may contract faster, other take more time - the muscles need to get used to the different situations and relax more. After 17 years of having to control the voice, they now have to let go...

I thought I'd post a voice update today and then let the topic rest for a while. Its been 5 months now, my voice is ok, it has a female sound to it I think, I dont have the male undertones, If I am startled, I will make sounds at a nice pitch - higher than I usually use it for speaking. I dont feel I stick out anymore in womens only groups with my voice, but some breathiness remains and in everyday conversations I can sometimes have a rather low pitch of about 160-180 Hz on average, which is still ok. Reading the sample texts, I get 180-210 Hz depending on how I go about it - so both average pitches are relaxed - they are just different ways of speaking in some small way. I think after this, I will just let the voice topic run free for some months, do my exercises if i can, take my pills until they run out and see what is happening by month 9.

One fun thing yesterday was, I was just giggling for some reason and squeaking a bit and at one moment the pitch got crazy high and my laughter was sounding like a little girl. This was so funny ;)

Anyways: Here is my voice recordings:
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1ea4YZWk5t7 (lower, today about 180 Hz)
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0oJZVY7wHPA (german, today about 190-200 Hz)
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0Tluz84WWNd (german, pre op, about 150 Hz)
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1YTIZYC1bum (higher, today about 210 Hz)

Lowest pitches in the recordings is usually around 150 Hz for some words. Some passages of several words average at 160 Hz, but its compensated by parts in the voice melody that are above 200 Hz again. So I think its ok to have some low pitch passages.

Greetings

I am not sure where you want to work the voice but the first two samples sound good. You have enough inflection in the voice to hit a few higher notes and pull any doubt out of a persons mind that the lower notes are near the male range. This is the same thing that a woman with a lower voice uses naturally to gender female with a lower voice.

The last sample almost sounds like you may be working out of your range. The higher notes sound flat or stressed and I think I detect a break in the voice when you are sliding frequencies. This may be a healing issue, learning to work the new range, the result of the 5 week rest period after surgery or a flaw in your voice. You will be able to tell better than me. It may clear as time goes on but I think for the moment, you sweet spot for a speaking voice may be around 190-200Hz but the 180Hz will work as well if you are comfortable using that range.

Well, I want to improve on strength, on loosing the breathiness that is not so much audible in recordings but in real life it is. Also I want to work on improving that transition to the higher pitches with more ease because as you said, in the higher pitches it sometimes sounds strained - when it flips into head voice its good again but that transition between is very hard for me and it is within my speaking range.

I think you are right and my comfortable speaking pitch is on average at about 180-200 Hz - this is ok, I guess - its a low female voice but not in the male range. Its an increase of about 45-60 Hz to my pre op voice. So maybe I can also manage to get into the 200 Hz range or even the 215 Hz range that Dr Kim predicted by default and not so much in the 180 Hz. But if its at 180, its like it is and its ok, I am not a tiny young woman, so its ok to be a bit low.  Still, I will wait for the end of the 9 month period that seems to be the range in which sometimes changes still occur.

I noticed that the comfortable pitch did increase in the past months though. I think I started at 170 on average at about 6-8 weeks, now it seems to be about 190 Hz at 5 months - and it comes more natural - so it is all improving steadily but slowly, which is why I say I want to just not think about it too much for a while and just let it go its way. Not controlling the voice is also a key issue, because I know that I control too much and destroy more than I improve it by doing so. But overall its great - I feel my voice now is really much more a part of myself than before. It feels similar to the warm feeling I get when I feel other parts of my body that have been feminized by surgery or hormones :) - so I totally think that surgery was worth it, just saying because I sometimes say things about my voice that I am not yet totally happy with, but you can hopefully hear in the voice samples that my voice is rather good already and I am complaining at a high level  about little things ;)

I agree with Dena, sort of. There is a slight tremor in one part (at least that's my interpretation) and a lot of breathiness.

The German ones are hard for me to judge but pitch is pitch. They sound good (well, the pre-op sounds pre-op).

But I would gender this voice female and you said you are a bit tall and middle age anyway so the voice would match. I'm hoping people don't mismatch my voice. Dr Kim tied off only 1/3 I think because my voice was kind of high plus I don't think he wanted it too too high. Neither did I. I just want something close to my female relatives who do sound kind of deep anyway.

Yes, I think I have plenty of tremor still and the posterior vocal fold gap... so I am not sure, I have to work on those. I would take another botox if it helps with the tremors in the long run, but Dr Kim advised against it and insists on using the medication instead.

I am not that tall, but I am a bit heavy built and in the 40 year age range. So its ok to not have a teenage voice. Dr Kim actually reduced the length by 40% and not the usual 1/3 - I think it was mainly to correct an asymmetry I had. At first I thought this may have been too much and maybe my pitch would go up too high but apparently I could have been ok even with the 50% suture.

And as I said before, I think the judgement on my original pitch was somewhat wrong. He measured 134 Hz and thus predicted 210 Hz as target - but I think my original pitch was more like 110 Hz, in which case the 180 now would be pretty much right on the target.

Lets see how the gender of the voice holds up - it was only few occasions that I was misgendered on my voice even pre op, but it happened occasionally. It did not happen yet post op :)

Ok. Time for the 6 month update:

http://vocaroo.com/i/s174Nl5ghVrN (german)
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0Ky21g3EO0W (english)

Pitch in speaking seems to be at about 170 Hz in the english clip, about 180 in the german clip. When reading, pitch goes up to 185 or higher on average. The lows while speaking are at 140 Hz, sometimes 150 Hz. That means this is the lowest pitched sylabils or words I use. if I consciously try to speak monotonously at a relaxed pitch, about 140-160 Hz average is where I would end up with, depending on the day and time. So the average pitch really depends a lot on the voice melody and intonation.

What bugs me is that my voice still sounds like I have a cold or slight laryngitis. People notice this a lot and ask me about it, which is something that just annoys me as I was hoping to not sound like my voice has a damage after the surgery. I need to see if the next 6 months will make a difference and change this to the better.

What i also noticed last weekend is, that for some reason singing got harder for me since the Botox wore off. I can not hit notes properly and especially I have problems hitting the right "distance" between two notes. So trying to sing a C first and then an E, I might end up with C-G instead. So I underestimate the pitch change that will happen. Its also kind of hard to hold a pitch. My guess is that this has to do a lot with those vocal tremors that Dr kim diagnosed in me and either the Clonazepam is just not strong enough to bring them down, or I got used to the clonazepam and it does not have enough effect anymore. I dread a bit the moment when the pills run out and even that little support will stop. I asked - or offered - to get another Botox injection done locally at some experts here, but Dr Kim insisted that the piss should be enough. I guess I need to learn how to deal with that tremor without Botox, otherwise I would need more Botox every 3 months which is not really a great solution either.

Yeah, your voice does sound a bit creaky like it is taking a lot of effort.

What did Dr Kim say about it? Do you think you'd be headed for a revision?

Quote from: anjaq on August 24, 2015, 04:55:13 AM
Ok. Time for the 6 month update:

http://vocaroo.com/i/s174Nl5ghVrN (german)
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0Ky21g3EO0W (english)

Pitch in speaking seems to be at about 170 Hz in the english clip, about 180 in the german clip. When reading, pitch goes up to 185 or higher on average. The lows while speaking are at 140 Hz, sometimes 150 Hz. That means this is the lowest pitched sylabils or words I use. if I consciously try to speak monotonously at a relaxed pitch, about 140-160 Hz average is where I would end up with, depending on the day and time. So the average pitch really depends a lot on the voice melody and intonation.

What bugs me is that my voice still sounds like I have a cold or slight laryngitis. People notice this a lot and ask me about it, which is something that just annoys me as I was hoping to not sound like my voice has a damage after the surgery. I need to see if the next 6 months will make a difference and change this to the better.

What i also noticed last weekend is, that for some reason singing got harder for me since the Botox wore off. I can not hit notes properly and especially I have problems hitting the right "distance" between two notes. So trying to sing a C first and then an E, I might end up with C-G instead. So I underestimate the pitch change that will happen. Its also kind of hard to hold a pitch. My guess is that this has to do a lot with those vocal tremors that Dr kim diagnosed in me and either the Clonazepam is just not strong enough to bring them down, or I got used to the clonazepam and it does not have enough effect anymore. I dread a bit the moment when the pills run out and even that little support will stop. I asked - or offered - to get another Botox injection done locally at some experts here, but Dr Kim insisted that the piss should be enough. I guess I need to learn how to deal with that tremor without Botox, otherwise I would need more Botox every 3 months which is not really a great solution either.

Well, first I'll just say that despite your issues, you still sound female without a question- so that's great.  But, yes, I hear the issues you're talking about.  Your voice just sounds a little bit weak and breathy.  Do you have trouble raising your voice in loud situations?  I'm no expert, but in my singing lessons, when I can't produce a clear tone it's often a result of incomplete cord closure.  My teacher has me hum through a straw and make sounds like a trumpet while blowing a lot of air through that tiny space.  Obviously your issue might be a medical one or there may still be some healing necessary, but it might be worth a shot to try this a few times a day see if it gives you more clarity.  There's nothing wrong with having a breathy female voice, and you actually sound quite nice, but I can understand why you would want a little more power and clarity in many situations.

Quote from: anjaq on August 24, 2015, 04:55:13 AM
Ok. Time for the 6 month update:

http://vocaroo.com/i/s174Nl5ghVrN (german)
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0Ky21g3EO0W (english)

Pitch in speaking seems to be at about 170 Hz in the english clip, about 180 in the german clip. When reading, pitch goes up to 185 or higher on average. The lows while speaking are at 140 Hz, sometimes 150 Hz. That means this is the lowest pitched sylabils or words I use. if I consciously try to speak monotonously at a relaxed pitch, about 140-160 Hz average is where I would end up with, depending on the day and time. So the average pitch really depends a lot on the voice melody and intonation.

What bugs me is that my voice still sounds like I have a cold or slight laryngitis. People notice this a lot and ask me about it, which is something that just annoys me as I was hoping to not sound like my voice has a damage after the surgery. I need to see if the next 6 months will make a difference and change this to the better.

What i also noticed last weekend is, that for some reason singing got harder for me since the Botox wore off. I can not hit notes properly and especially I have problems hitting the right "distance" between two notes. So trying to sing a C first and then an E, I might end up with C-G instead. So I underestimate the pitch change that will happen. Its also kind of hard to hold a pitch. My guess is that this has to do a lot with those vocal tremors that Dr kim diagnosed in me and either the Clonazepam is just not strong enough to bring them down, or I got used to the clonazepam and it does not have enough effect anymore. I dread a bit the moment when the pills run out and even that little support will stop. I asked - or offered - to get another Botox injection done locally at some experts here, but Dr Kim insisted that the piss should be enough. I guess I need to learn how to deal with that tremor without Botox, otherwise I would need more Botox every 3 months which is not really a great solution either.

hört sich meiner unerfahrenen Meinung nach absolut nach einer schönen Frauenstimme an. Das Deutsche finde ich persönlich ganz schön, dort betonst du die Wörter schön und es ist auch ne schöne Sprechmelodie drin.
Beim Englischen hattest du glaube ich Schwierigkeiten zwischen entfernten Tonhöhen zu wechseln, ich hab absolut keine Ahnung über Stimmen, aber durch Training / weitere Heilung sollte das besser werden oder?

Trotzdem, hört sich nach ner schönen Stimme an  ;D

Thanks for the positive comments.

I don#t think a revision is possible that would help with this problem. A revision at Yeson only would be something to be considered if pitch does not go up enough, I imagine. I did send in the recordings to Dr Kim and they said to keep doing the exercises and that my voice is feminized and I should not get any other surgeries because they would make the voice worse, not better.

An incomplete glottal closure certainly is a part of the problem. I did have that issue before VFS and now it is amplified. We are trying to solve this in voice therapy with airflow exercises, but the success so far is limited, I believe. Another issue might be the vocal tremor that Dr Kim diagnosed. I could see in one of the last ENT video recordings that one vocal chord was apparently pulled to the side by some muscle, causing an opening when it was supposed to be closed. This could be caused by unwanted muscle contractions (the diagosis of Dr Kim was "spasmodic dysphonia").

I definitely need a full and clear voice that can have volume since I need to give presentations or lessons at work. This is in fact why I chose Dr Kim over German surgeons, because in Germany it is rather common after a VFS to have a breathy voice and I wanted to avoid that.

@ Lebedinaja: Danke dir. Ja auf deutsch gefällt es mir in der Aufnahme auch besser, da sind aber auch ein paar Tage dazwischen. Allgemein habe ich ein bisschen das Problem die richtigen Tonlagen zu treffen. Entweder lande ich zu hoch und "quietsche" zu viel, oder es bleibt zu monoton. In der letzten Aufnahme habe ich es geschafft das ganz gut zu kontrollieren und in einem breiten Bereich zu bleiben. Ich hoffe derzeit auch vor allem auf erfolgreiches Training und noch weitere Heilung im nächsten halben Jahr, nach einem Jahr sollte aber die Heilung abgeschlossen sein.

Quote from: anjaq on August 24, 2015, 01:06:56 PM
Thanks for the positive comments.

I don#t think a revision is possible that would help with this problem. A revision at Yeson only would be something to be considered if pitch does not go up enough, I imagine. I did send in the recordings to Dr Kim and they said to keep doing the exercises and that my voice is feminized and I should not get any other surgeries because they would make the voice worse, not better.

An incomplete glottal closure certainly is a part of the problem. I did have that issue before VFS and now it is amplified. We are trying to solve this in voice therapy with airflow exercises, but the success so far is limited, I believe. Another issue might be the vocal tremor that Dr Kim diagnosed. I could see in one of the last ENT video recordings that one vocal chord was apparently pulled to the side by some muscle, causing an opening when it was supposed to be closed. This could be caused by unwanted muscle contractions (the diagosis of Dr Kim was "spasmodic dysphonia").

I definitely need a full and clear voice that can have volume since I need to give presentations or lessons at work. This is in fact why I chose Dr Kim over German surgeons, because in Germany it is rather common after a VFS to have a breathy voice and I wanted to avoid that.

@ Lebedinaja: Danke dir. Ja auf deutsch gefällt es mir in der Aufnahme auch besser, da sind aber auch ein paar Tage dazwischen. Allgemein habe ich ein bisschen das Problem die richtigen Tonlagen zu treffen. Entweder lande ich zu hoch und "quietsche" zu viel, oder es bleibt zu monoton. In der letzten Aufnahme habe ich es geschafft das ganz gut zu kontrollieren und in einem breiten Bereich zu bleiben. Ich hoffe derzeit auch vor allem auf erfolgreiches Training und noch weitere Heilung im nächsten halben Jahr, nach einem Jahr sollte aber die Heilung abgeschlossen sein.

Well, it seems like the surgery was a total success in terms of feminization, but that's too bad that it may have amplified a preexisting problem.  A shame that therapy hasn't been that helpful so far, but maybe with time it will be.  Wishing you the best!

Well, therapy is helping. It did help me a lot before VFS to get rid of that double gap in the vocal folds, but of course the improvements from 8 weeks post op to 4 months were strong, then from month 4 to 5 less to and so on. I still need to learn how to properly use my new voice instrument and I guess this will take some more time and experimentation and exercises. Yeson talk about a year... so, still some way to go.

I don't know if this will be any help, but as messed up as my voice currently is, I have been taking a few pitch checks and fining myself in the 160 to 170 hz range, lower that I should be. I put my hand on my larynx and I found the source of the problem. The no speaking and light use of my voice I have gotten lazy and I am not bringing my larynx up high enough. When I do, I move up to 210hz or better, the upper end of what Dr Haben said I might reach. I guess I am going to need to work on that when my voice has recovered enough.

Hmm - I am not sure the whole moving around the larynx thing is such a great idea. If I remember it correctly, Dr Kim actually advises against it and insists on using a natural and relaxed voice. On the other hand he talks about shaping the resonance with voice training, so its a bit of a paradox.

I somehow need to find my new voice and learn how to use it best. Part of that is at least for now to accept that it is a low female (Alto) voice and that this is ok, even though Dr Kim said it would be higher - its just a statistical suggestion that increase will be 75 Hz. For some it is 40 , for some 75 and for some over 100 - on average it may be 75, but one cannot guarantee it. So my thought is, I probably should accept that it is only 40 Hz for me and focus on using that 40 Hz gain and my new voice as best as I can. Its a bit weird because I feel like I am sounding so low if I use my voice effectively and fully, but I guess better to have a bit lower voice than to sound breathy all the time. And who knows - maybe something will change with time and once I learned how to use my voice at the lower pitches again, I can also use higher ones. The difficulty is, that my voice seems to respond a lot better at medium pitches like 180-210 Hz now than at 170 Hz although it is easier for me to use the 170 Hz. Its hard to explain :\

Quote from: anjaq on August 25, 2015, 03:22:00 AM
Hmm - I am not sure the whole moving around the larynx thing is such a great idea. If I remember it correctly, Dr Kim actually advises against it and insists on using a natural and relaxed voice. On the other hand he talks about shaping the resonance with voice training, so its a bit of a paradox.

I somehow need to find my new voice and learn how to use it best. Part of that is at least for now to accept that it is a low female (Alto) voice and that this is ok, even though Dr Kim said it would be higher - its just a statistical suggestion that increase will be 75 Hz. For some it is 40 , for some 75 and for some over 100 - on average it may be 75, but one cannot guarantee it. So my thought is, I probably should accept that it is only 40 Hz for me and focus on using that 40 Hz gain and my new voice as best as I can. Its a bit weird because I feel like I am sounding so low if I use my voice effectively and fully, but I guess better to have a bit lower voice than to sound breathy all the time. And who knows - maybe something will change with time and once I learned how to use my voice at the lower pitches again, I can also use higher ones. The difficulty is, that my voice seems to respond a lot better at medium pitches like 180-210 Hz now than at 170 Hz although it is easier for me to use the 170 Hz. Its hard to explain :\

All that aside, Anja, you sound lovely!

Aw thank you, ReDucks :)  :-*

I didn't have much of an option as to using my natural voice. My lowest chest pitch was 80 Hz so maybe I had a speaking voice of around 100 Hz. The best push I could expect was between 60 Hz and 80 Hz somewhat limited by the fact the longer cord would be what the percentage and pitch was calculated of. Using the shorter cord, I may have a 50% tie. This figures out to a 160 Hz to 170 hz working voice which would be a pretty low female voce almost out of the bottom of the female range. Switching to the mouth voice pushed me over 200 Hz which while not high, is solid in the female range. It would be nice to use the "natural voice" but I have been using the mouth voice for about 35 years so in a way, it is my natural voice
On top of that, Dr Haben said the surgical voice should be used with the mouth voice so that is good enough for me,

Quote from: anjaq on August 25, 2015, 03:22:00 AM
Hmm - I am not sure the whole moving around the larynx thing is such a great idea. If I remember it correctly, Dr Kim actually advises against it and insists on using a natural and relaxed voice. On the other hand he talks about shaping the resonance with voice training, so its a bit of a paradox.

Yes, I think I'm still doing the larynx thing when the whole point was to relax as you say.

Quote from: anjaq on August 25, 2015, 03:22:00 AM
I somehow need to find my new voice and learn how to use it best. Part of that is at least for now to accept that it is a low female (Alto) voice and that this is ok, even though Dr Kim said it would be higher - its just a statistical suggestion that increase will be 75 Hz. For some it is 40 , for some 75 and for some over 100 - on average it may be 75, but one cannot guarantee it. So my thought is, I probably should accept that it is only 40 Hz for me and focus on using that 40 Hz gain and my new voice as best as I can. Its a bit weird because I feel like I am sounding so low if I use my voice effectively and fully, but I guess better to have a bit lower voice than to sound breathy all the time. And who knows - maybe something will change with time and once I learned how to use my voice at the lower pitches again, I can also use higher ones. The difficulty is, that my voice seems to respond a lot better at medium pitches like 180-210 Hz now than at 170 Hz although it is easier for me to use the 170 Hz. Its hard to explain :\

Well I still think you sound absolutely female, even if the pitch increase is not yet what you'd like. Do you think you'd eventually ask Dr Kim to look at it again if you don't get an acceptable pitch increase? I could see myself going back again when I have enough money if things don't improve after a year.

Dena, I am also not sure what my "natural voice" or what the "mouth voice" is - I basically have one way of talking that has developed over 17 years. And now I have to learn a different way, unless I intend to stay breathy or sound somewhat off forever. I am not sure if I need more control (do a better mouth voice) or if I should shomehow unlearn some things and use a more natural voice with less control. I guess I need to experiment and maybe I actually should start reading books aloud and record myself and then try some things with the voice and listen back to the recordings to see which one sounds best, least breathy... I am not sure. My voice therapist seems to be of little help with that. I think no voice therapist is ready to deal with this kind of surgery, so they just apply some general exercises to the problems that are noticeable. I can just hope that it will somehow work. I actually considered switching therapist at least try another one for a few sessions to see if she would have different ideas. But that is not really easy to do unless I want to pay myself.

Sarah - yes, my voice sounds female, but that was not the only point in my original plan. My voice sounded >90% female before the VFS as well, even at rather low pitches, I was told. So this is not something that changed with the VFS. My hopes for the VFS was to change a bit the way the voice sounds, to increase pitch significantly and to heal in a way that would not leave me breathy - this has so far only partially worked out. In part the issues I still have certainly are mental - learning how to use the voice properly to use it in the right pitch area ("sweet spot") which is probably a bit higher than i normally speak now, unlearn whatever I am doing that makes my voice breathy,...
I dont want and cannot afford any revision. The pitch is an alto female voice, a bit higher than before and definitely much higher than where I believe my original pitch was. I would not want to risk more breathiness or other dysphonia with more surgery - for now I am just hoping that the healing in the remaining time until the 12 months are over is going well enough to clean up my voice. If I have a relaxed 170-180 Hz speaking voice that is without dysphonia, that would already be great and I would be happy. It would more or less almost be what I originally said I wanted. i never wanted to be >220 Hz or something. i am 1m73 and of "athletic" built, so a voice should not be too high in my case anyways.

I agree, that even though the voice quality is not 100%, I would not in a million years gender Anja's voice as anything but a woman's. I guess we strive for perfection and that can be frustrating but sometimes we just have to deal with it.

Quote from: anjaq on August 25, 2015, 04:42:57 PM

Sarah - yes, my voice sounds female, but that was not the only point in my original plan. My voice sounded >90% female before the VFS as well, even at rather low pitches, I was told. So this is not something that changed with the VFS. My hopes for the VFS was to change a bit the way the voice sounds, to increase pitch significantly and to heal in a way that would not leave me breathy - this has so far only partially worked out. In part the issues I still have certainly are mental - learning how to use the voice properly to use it in the right pitch area ("sweet spot") which is probably a bit higher than i normally speak now, unlearn whatever I am doing that makes my voice breathy,...
I dont want and cannot afford any revision. The pitch is an alto female voice, a bit higher than before and definitely much higher than where I believe my original pitch was. I would not want to risk more breathiness or other dysphonia with more surgery - for now I am just hoping that the healing in the remaining time until the 12 months are over is going well enough to clean up my voice. If I have a relaxed 170-180 Hz speaking voice that is without dysphonia, that would already be great and I would be happy. It would more or less almost be what I originally said I wanted. i never wanted to be >220 Hz or something. i am 1m73 and of "athletic" built, so a voice should not be too high in my case anyways.

I also wanted a significant pitch change. I can live with how I sound now, but in my heart I hoped I'd sound something like Jenny, even if it wouldn't have been particularly age appropriate. I also wanted to sing soprano, or at least sing and not sound like a male. I think at 2 months we can try singing?

Quote from: Teslagirl on August 25, 2015, 05:34:35 PM
I think at 2 months we can try singing?

Don't count on it. The little singing I've tried, I sound like the worst American Idol or Britain's Got Talent contestant. Maybe not quite William Hung but close. I could sing before but an octave lower. I sing at almost an octave higher but the highest pitches are only becoming gradually accessible. But it will get better, just need to get used to the new range and exercises may bring the range back. So don't think that at 2 months some switch will turn on and enable your ability to sing. Nope.

Well I guess I gained a bit more femininity and pitch but need to figure out if I can improve my voice quality somehow to not have to say I paid with that for it.

Here are two comparison pre op recordings, because I think vocaroo deleted teh old ones I had in the thread before:
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1cPWjRUl9fC , http://vocaroo.com/i/s0NX0wWS5Y8p  - those were pretty much my relaxed (but modified from the original) pre op voice, one of them is very slightly elevated - the way I probably do it now to get to 185 Hz as average. I dont know the pitch readings on those old ones, I guess they are as usual around 140-150 Hz.

Regarding singing. At the 8 weeks mark I tried and I was happy because it was much easier to reach the higher singing voice notes (like E,F,G4 and a bit above). But I was frustrated about my vocal break and the singing voice below the break was not reall great. So I could sing rather good in my head voice, it was just very hard to hit the right notes, as the reaction of the voice to my muscles was very different. Honestly I must say that between week 8 and 15, the singing was better than after that period, when Botox was wearing off. A lot of things seem to have gotten harder since then, so definitely the Botox was necessary for me - So I honestly consider to see if things will change with just getting over the next 6 months until the official healing period is over and if I still have these issues try if getting another Botox shot will help me along...

Anjaq, I don't think you have any issues at all. As you become more comfortable in speaking situations, you'll discover just how much your attitude adjustment will improve the things people have mentioned. Those issues are insignificant to me. I hear plenty of resonance. Don't worry about it. In other words, you sound delightful.

Cindi

Ok, so a quick update - the clonazepam ran out about 2 weeks ago (now about 8 months post op), before that I had to take half a pill and then quarter of a pill for a week each because I could not take the withdrawal when I tried to stop completely (I was careful and tried that stunt before all the pills were gone).

I had quite a few side effects from stopping the pills - opposed to having no side effects while I was on them at all. But when I stopped, I had some dizzyness, nervousness, increased tendency for muscle cramps, belly cramps. My throat felt rougher, dry and I have a foreign body sensation in it at times.

Pitch dropped by about 2 semitones, so my relaxed voice now averages at 160 Hz (but its not hard to use a little bit of effort and control and get to 180 or even 200 Hz). I sent in my voice files to Dr Kim and he basically suggests I should take more clonazepam - or one of the two alternatives he suggests. He does not recommend Botox though, even though I would be more comfortable with that rather than those pills. But he writes that my pitch has stabilized, so I should not do Botox.
I am not sure what he means with that - my pitch has stabilized at 160 Hz?  :-\

I am not quite happy with taking more pills though - I did not have the impression that they helped THAT much and in the end I will have to live without those pills - I can't take them forever... so I am really unsure if I should follow Dr Kims advice now - in addition to that, no doctor I know of would prescribe me an antiepileptic psychopharmaceutical drug for pitch instability in the voice - up to now most said that their recommendations would be voice therapy instead. One even said I should do psychotherapy because the psyche has such a big influence on the voice.

So my tendency is that I probably have to deal with the remaining issues with conventional voice rehab. The remaining issues (if I take it that the base pitch now has stabilized as he said) are pitch instability (I can not hold one pitch and maintain it for some seconds), voice break (strong pitch instability at around the C4 note, around 250 Hz), some remaining hoarseness or breathiness and some tension, which mainly comes when I try to speak in a bit elevated voice to be in the ~200 Hz range instead of 160 Hz for a longer time.

Does anyone have suggestions?

Ok - I forgot to add voice samples of course ;)

Here they are:
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0D50Inxxc4H - relaxed , some hours after the last voice exercises
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0FO2r51BaJm - slightly controlled (mainly for modulation and resonance), right after voice exercises

So those exercises seem to do something, also keeping an eye on the voice helps - to prevent it from totally relaxing. However I must say that even in the relaxed state, it is still in a neutral pitch and thus (because of all the other parameters than pitch) most likely perceived as female - this is great because it really means that if I relax (or get drunk), my voice will only fall into a neutral pitch, not below, hopefully.

What I noticed about both samples is you are a master of inflection. You use it in a very feminine manner and even at 160 Hz the voice is yelling female. As for drinking and the effect on the voice, I don't know about that one because I don't drink but I suspect if you use the voice enough it will become a habit and if you are like me, you forget how to use the chest voice. Even after surgery and the recovery I fall into a relaxed trained voice or a sweet spot trained voice depending on if I am in a laid back mode or alert mode.

Quote from: anjaq on October 22, 2015, 08:15:14 AM
Ok - I forgot to add voice samples of course ;)

Here they are:
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0D50Inxxc4H - relaxed , some hours after the last voice exercises
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0FO2r51BaJm - slightly controlled (mainly for modulation and resonance), right after voice exercises

So those exercises seem to do something, also keeping an eye on the voice helps - to prevent it from totally relaxing. However I must say that even in the relaxed state, it is still in a neutral pitch and thus (because of all the other parameters than pitch) most likely perceived as female - this is great because it really means that if I relax (or get drunk), my voice will only fall into a neutral pitch, not below, hopefully.

Sounding great.  Your voice always sounds good but I'm noticing a lot more clarity in these recent takes.

Quote from: kwala on October 22, 2015, 08:31:15 PM
Sounding great.  Your voice always sounds good but I'm noticing a lot more clarity in these recent takes.

Yes - I think that is in part due to the longer healing time, and in part because the clonazepam is not dampening it anymore, I feel definitely that my voice is more free without the pills. So it also has something positive, but the downsides are those increased vocal tremors and resulting pitch instability.

Quote from: Dena on October 22, 2015, 04:12:28 PM
What I noticed about both samples is you are a master of inflection. You use it in a very feminine manner and even at 160 Hz the voice is yelling female. As for drinking and the effect on the voice, I don't know about that one because I don't drink but I suspect if you use the voice enough it will become a habit and if you are like me, you forget how to use the chest voice. Even after surgery and the recovery I fall into a relaxed trained voice or a sweet spot trained voice depending on if I am in a laid back mode or alert mode.

Thats funny - Inflection was actually something I was told was a problem pre op, so maybe the surgery helped me there because inflection now just comes without having to force it, unlike before the surgery. That would be an interesting effect :)

I dont think my voice would be gendered male now. Maybe in bad conditions on the phone it may be ambiguous at times, but overall, I believe I dont need to worry about that anymore. Before the surgery my voice was perceived mostly female already, except when I really dropped it low - like the C3 or D3 range on average. Now that range is only  part of some words, so its not really that much of an issue anymore and going b elow C3 is taking effort, while before it was really easy and actually in a way comfortable to drop to A2.

What does not happen anymore and did not really happen for years is for me to drop into the really bad "male resonance" pattern - I think I did that a few times post op while the voice was still very weak and not yet healed, but nowadays I am back to not having that issue too much, hopefully not even when I am drunk.

So it really takes a way a lot of the stress and anxiety I had before the surgery about my voice. It may not be perfect and not as high pitched as with some other Yeson patients, but I can use it without thinking much and not be asked weird questions... :D

I wouldn't lie, I love wine and other spirits and I have it often (in moderation). My voice doesn't seem to be affected. However I am sure to follow it up with water.

You sound pretty good. I tell people don't get hung up on pitch. I would never read "male" or trans in your voice.

Oh thanks. I don't worry much that it would sound male, but I used to be worried a lot about sounding trans. Nice to hear that this seems not the case now.

This is how it looks now at the ENT with the endoscope.
Its about 7-8 months post op

http://imgur.com/a/VZ5ES

It seems to have healed nicely, the suture is barely visible, but there is some asymmetry in the action of the vocal folds and some gap at the "top"=back , which my ENT thinks is not going to go away because it was there before the surgery and it is like this in most women.

My pitch range apparently now is about 107Hz-735Hz, so I lost a bit more at the top, I can sing up to 100 dB and shout at 105 dB, but shouting really sounds rough, so I think this needs more time. They measured some slightly increased breathiness (DSI was too low this time) and increased jitter since I stopped the clonazepam.

Reading the standard text and doing various sounds, my pitch was at 191 Hz fore reading and 182 Hz for the other sounds. The woman who did the examination said that her voice is a bit lower than that (mine is at f# or g and she says she is at f or f#). So I am definitely in the female pitch range there :D

I also finally feel that I can just talk without thinking - if I don't control my voice at all, it still is good, although it may be slightly lower in pitch and have some more heaviness to it - but thats all ok. The tendency I had in the beginning to lower my voice closer to the old pitch - and thus way below my optimal pitch now - is mostly gone. Thus I do use higher pitches more naturally, which is good, because those are the ones where my voice works better now.

I guess I will do some more voice therapy sessions, probably I am not going to try and get more clonazepam, even if Dr Kim recommended it, but the doctors seem to be all not in favour of this. Probably not much will change about my voice at this point except maybe some more power returning back, hopefully the breathiness and jitter will go away again and I may try singing lessons to see what I can do about the upper range.