Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Hello. I have been reading through this forum trying to find a solution to my twisted sick mind and I cannot find anything. I have spend thousands of dollars seeing 4 different therapists (3 of them with extensive trans experience) over the past 6-8 months and it seems I am no better off now than before I started.

The only thing I have been able to determine from this forum and my therapists is that I am the only one who can determine if I am trans or not. I am not even confident in making the right decision about what I want to eat for lunch, how can I possibly be qualified to decide something as incredibly huge and life changing as whether or not I am transgender.

My whole life I have lived with people second guessing every decision I have ever made. I have no confidence whatsoever in myself when it comes to making any kind of decision. There is no medical test I can take to determine if I am trans. How can I possibly know? I feel like a total freak, a Frankenstein, an abomination. The only thing I'm reasonably certain of is that I should have ever been born.

How do you know for certain you are trans?

J

To answer a question with a question, what are you doing on this site if you are CIS? I think you are but I don't know which flavor you are and that you will have to decide. You are one of the few I have encountered on the site who is resisting because you are uncomfortable with the future that it implies. Some can step back and live with the constant feeling but others resisting can become life threatening.

There is one medical way of testing this that is available to you. Start HRT, possibly with a blocker and low dose estrogen. If you feel better, you are transgender. If you feel even worst, you are CIS with other issues. Low dose will minimize the changes and it should be pretty reversible for the first 3 months. I suspect in 2 or 3 weeks you will have an answer.

There is nothing wrong with your mind or you. You were born this way and your brain just doesn't function properly on testosterone. If you need to, think of it as a birth defect that can't be corrected. You are no different than nearly all of us on this site and we have all felt to some degree what you are currently struggling with.

I never knew until I started HRT. It was pretty obvious after that.

Hi,

You make decisions every day.  Lots of them. Right or wrong, they are yours.  Own them.  If you are wrong, pick yourself up and move on.

Asking for opinions from people you trust is a good idea.  Advice is not second guessing. If they say "I told you so."  They don't deserve your trust.

Second guessing had the advantage of hindsight.  Its a lot easier to be correct.  Don't worry about that.

The vast majority of men do not question their gender.  That you are questioning is part of the answer.  But no, there is no test.

I wish there was.

Hugs

Jen

Just keep probing like the others above have suggested. Don't be afraid to try new things, be strong and courageous. Over time you will know.

When I say people always second guess me, I mean someone might ask me for advice on a subject I know a lot about and when I give the advice, it is either outright rejected or they just disagree with me saying "no I don't think so". And that is not from random strangers, it's from my immediate family throughout out my whole life. So as a result, I continuously doubt myself now.

If a doctor told me I had a terminal disease and had 6 months to live, I could understand that and process that. This trans business seems all backwards. I'm the one that has to tell the doctor whether I am trans or not. My mind can't process that way of thinking. The doctor is the medical expert, not me.

I can't imagine anything worse than being trans. I feel like a non person. Some sort of anomaly that doesn't fit in anywhere. This really genuinely sucks!

Quote from: jayne01 on April 13, 2016, 12:34:46 AM
When I say people always second guess me, I mean someone might ask me for advice on a subject I know a lot about and when I give the advice, it is either outright rejected or they just disagree with me saying "no I don't think so". And that is not from random strangers, it's from my immediate family throughout out my whole life. So as a result, I continuously doubt myself now.

Don't doubt yourself unless they can present a valid argument as to why you are wrong. People will often pretend to be experts in subjects they know nothing about. Make them earn you respect instead of giving it freely.

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If a doctor told me I had a terminal disease and had 6 months to live, I could understand that and process that. This trans business seems all backwards. I'm the one that has to tell the doctor whether I am trans or not. My mind can't process that way of thinking. The doctor is the medical expert, not me.

My therapist about 35 years ago said transsexualism is the only medical condition that is self diagnosed. We didn't understand the non binary in those days but it what he said applies to the non binary as well. Nobody can say for sure how you feel other than you so you are to only one who can say for sure what you are. From your story, I can get a pretty good feel but I don't know what flavor of transgender you are.

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I can't imagine anything worse than being trans. I feel like a non person. Some sort of anomaly that doesn't fit in anywhere. This really genuinely sucks!

I have said and I mean it, I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy. Strange as it may sound, if I had the option of changing my life, I wouldn't.

Quote from: jayne01 on April 13, 2016, 12:34:46 AM
I'm the one that has to tell the doctor whether I am trans or not. My mind can't process that way of thinking. The doctor is the medical expert, not me.

Its absolutely true though. A psych could tell you if you had some other mental condition, but not this.

I spent a year trying to work it out, visiting a therapist a number of times. I wasn't getting anywhere, except more and more stressed. I started low dose HRT simply because I ran out of options and was getting desperate. I needed an answer. I wish I'd not been so stubborn now, but I guess didn't want to be trans and was looking for a way out.

HRT was a revelation for me. I felt amazing, and after while I tried to stop. That didn't go so well. So trans or not, I'm on HRT for good.

Quote from: Dena on April 13, 2016, 01:07:19 AM
Don't doubt yourself unless they can present a valid argument as to why you are wrong. People will often pretend to be experts in subjects they know nothing about. Make them earn you respect instead of giving it freely.

That is easy to say now as an adult. But as a child growing up, being constantly doubted kind of gets imprinted in the brain and is a very hard thing to shake. So being doubted right through childhood and adulthood seems like the norm. I understand what you are saying and it makes perfect sense. This is more of a case of teaching an old dog new tricks. To not doubt myself is going against my natural instinct.

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Nobody can say for sure how you feel other than you so you are to only one who can say for sure what you are. From your story, I can get a pretty good feel but I don't know what flavor of transgender you are.

I just don't know how I feel. When I think I finally get a handle on things and accept I am trans, my self doubt kicks in, I start feeling very ashamed and I convince myself beyond doubt that I am not trans, then I have some sort of meltdown and the cycle begins again.

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I have said and I mean it, I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy.

Neither would I. It is awful.

Quote from: jayne01 on April 13, 2016, 01:21:56 AM
I just don't know how I feel. When I think I finally get a handle on things and accept I am trans, my self doubt kicks in, I start feeling very ashamed and I convince myself beyond doubt that I am not trans, then I have some sort of meltdown and the cycle begins again.

Lets try to get around the problem by forgetting about it. Lets see if we can figure out what flavor you are.

In the ideal world, would you like to go all the way and have reassignment surgery or is that something you could live without.

How would you see your appearance? Very feminine, some what masculine or somewhere in-between.

Is there a possible that you are fluid/bigender instead of having shame drive the feelings away.

If you are having problems deciding this, check  our Wiki  (https://www.susans.org/wiki/Transgender) for more detail.

Quote from: Dena on April 13, 2016, 01:38:32 AM

In the ideal world, would you like to go all the way and have reassignment surgery or is that something you could live without.

I don't know how to answer that. I don't know what an ideal world would look like.

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How would you see your appearance? Very feminine, some what masculine or somewhere in-between.

Again, that is a tough one. I see women out in public of all shapes and sizes and I often find myself wishing I was them. But when I see myself in the mirror, all I see is a guy. I can't imagine anything other than witchcraft and magic that could turn me into a woman. I have an enormous head even by male standards. Big hands. Big feet. Masculine, Neanderthal like bone structure. There is no way my imagination can see me as female. All I see is a freak.

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Is there a possible that you are fluid/bigender instead of having shame drive the feelings away.

I don't think so.

We can't know for certain what causes who we are, but we know our wants, and we can find words that apply to them. Therefore, I don't know why you and I want to be female, but the fact that we do, means the word transgender applies to us. As someone who has dealt with gender dysphoria their entire life, you can trust my authority (just kidding).

Personally, the cause of my gender doesn't make a difference to me. My gender simply dictates some of my preferences, and since my preferences are no better or worse than anyone else's preferences, I see no reason to attempt to destroy this part of myself. Life is prosaic enough, so why make it even more mundane?

Our existence is brief and arduous, so please don't waste time on questions that can't be answered and things that can't be changed, and make the best of your life.

Cis gender people by and large do not obsess about or over think their gender identity. If they do think about being the "other sex" it is usually fleeting and "just wondering what it would be like"...

Only you can decide if you are trans. I think you know already. If you are, the real question that needs an answer is "what do you do about it?" It sounds like you consider the fallout of you transitioning will be apocalyptic. Of course you don't know for sure but I can understand why you feel it would. And that's fair enough. But it sounds like you're pulling yourself apart over this.

Answer me this, if you could press a button and turn permanently into a biological woman, would you even hesitate? Most trans women wouldn't hesitate. I wouldn't. But since I know I'll never be biologically XX female, as much as I'd wish otherwise, I've settled on full transition as my personal solution. It may not be the dream but it really is my best option for my needs and it is by and large pretty awesome, better than I had anticipated. Had I chosen not to transition then I would have had to find a non self destructive way to live with myself presenting as male in society.

Quote from: Ms Grace on April 13, 2016, 02:30:24 AM

Answer me this, if you could press a button and turn permanently into a biological woman, would you even hesitate? Most trans women wouldn't hesitate. I wouldn't.

I have asked myself that many times. If there is a button that can turn me into a biological woman, then there must also be a button that can make the dysphoria go away and just be a normal guy. Either button would be equally appealing to me. I have seen many people's responses to questions like that. Blue pill/red pill, blue button/red button, etc. it seems as though all trans women go for the red button without hesitation. I seem to be the only one that doesn't care which button so long as the dysphoria goes away. I just want to be a normal person. My brain obviously works in strange ways. I think the most accurate answer for me is that I am just damaged goods.

I have even tried taking anti depressants to make the dysphoria go away. They don't work. They don't anything. I even still get depressed. The only thing they do accomplish is they seem to make it more difficult to let the depression out. It's just bottled up in my brain with no means of escape. I'm going to stop taking the anti depressants over the next week or two. I'll ease myself iff them.

You are a normal person.

You might not feel that way, but being conflicted about your gender does not make you abnormal... otherwise, by extension, we all would be too.

Being trans is like living on the wrong planet, swimming in the wrong sea - everything is geared to support cis gender function. The gender police don't like people varying from what they considered the "norm" - that is, sex organ aligned binary gender identity. Any "deviation" is to be scorned, ridiculed, feared, despised, disregarded... how can any trans person possibly feel OK about themselves and their gender identity living in such a toxic atmosphere? Personally, I've found that transitioning, has freshened up the air very nicely.

Tell me, if you were to decide you are trans and you were to transition what things do you fear will happen?  :)

Quote from: jayne01 on April 13, 2016, 02:46:50 AM
If there is a button that can turn me into a biological woman, then there must also be a button that can make the dysphoria go away and just be a normal guy.

You can spin it whatever way you want, the bottom line is most cis men would answer "no" to the first button and an even more emphatic "don't need to" to the second.

Quote from: jayne01 on April 13, 2016, 03:05:40 AM
I'm going to stop taking the anti depressants over the next week or two. I'll ease myself iff them.

You probably shouldn't do that without medical supervision.

Let me put to you a possible alternative way of looking at this.

When you can't make a decision about something you are like a tourist standing at a crossroads unable to determine which road to take. The trouble is if you stand there indefinitely you still wont know because no one else on the road knows which of the two destinations available you would like.

The only way to solve that is to choose a road and walk down it for a while and see if it brings you to a place you like. Now in your situation you seem to have been walking down the road which should lead to cis maledom for all your life and yet you still have these doubts - so its a fair bet that that may not be the right road - and that is why it keeps bringing you back to the crossroads or decision.

So one way to approach this is to try the alternative for a while and see where that takes you. If you dont feel better, then at least you will have then explored the territory and answered the nagging question, and if you do then its a good bet that you are doing something right.

Quote from: Ms Grace on April 13, 2016, 03:07:14 AM

Tell me, if you were to decide you are trans and you were to transition what things do you fear will happen?  :)

Where do I begin! I don't know the first thing about being a woman. I walk like a guy, talk like a guy, my mannerisms are male. I don't know the first thing about makeup, and I would definitely need some if I was not frighten little children. I have no fashion sense at all. But all those things pale in comparison to putting my wife in a position to have to accept me as a woman. I love her more than life itself and I can't bear hurting her in any way. My parents would be crushed, my brother would be hurt, my sister would probably be the most accepting besides my wife. I work in an all male engineering environment. I love my job, but the people I work with are very much 'guys' guys. They don't strike me as people that would accept a trans person as anything other than a mentally ill freak. I can't know that for certain, but I have heard comments they make when something comes on tv that is trans related, not very nice.

Basically it would be the apocalypse you mentioned earlier.

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You can spin it whatever way you want, the bottom line is most cis men would answer "no" to the first button and an even more emphatic "don't need to" to the second.

I didn't think of it that way. It makes sense.

Quote from: Ms Grace on April 13, 2016, 03:09:07 AM
You probably shouldn't do that without medical supervision.

I'm seeing my go next week for a follow up on the anti depressants. I don't have clinical depression. I was taking them more as a trial to see if they help at all. They are low dose.

Quote from: Rejennyrated on April 13, 2016, 03:41:25 AM
Let me put to you a possible alternative way of looking at this.

When you can't make a decision about something you are like a tourist standing at a crossroads unable to determine which road to take. The trouble is if you stand there indefinitely you still wont know because no one else on the road knows which of the two destinations available you would like.

The only way to solve that is to choose a road and walk down it for a while and see if it brings you to a place you like. Now in your situation you seem to have been walking down the road which should lead to cis maledom for all your life and yet you still have these doubts - so its a fair bet that that may not be the right road - and that is why it keeps bringing you back to the crossroads or decision.

So one way to approach this is to try the alternative for a while and see where that takes you. If you dont feel better, then at least you will have then explored the territory and answered the nagging question, and if you do then its a good bet that you are doing something right.

Thanks. That is a good way to put it and I would agree if my decisions only affected me. That is not the case. Any decision I make will affect other people too. People I love and care for. What right do I have to make that kind of choice?

"What right do others have to stop you making a choice you need to make?"

It's not others stopping me. It is me stopping me. I don't feel right about making such a big decision that could change the course of someone else's life. It feels wrong to me.

You can stop yourself. But this course of action appears to make you desperately unhappy. I would think that a lot of people you care about are aware to differing degrees of your unhappiness. If you were to make a decision that -perhaps - would make you happier, do you think that people who know you and care about you would want to stop you being happier?

I get your comments about the growing up with self doubt, having your deeds, words and actions always belittled or doubted. But we have to try and break away from those memories that tell us we're not up up it, no good, or whatever. They hold us back and make us miserable. We are better than that.

Put yourself first, a give yourself a chance........?

As others have said a few times there is a solution to this and that is to start HRT.  The mental relief will come quickly if in fact you are trans and not something else.

Maybe you fear the answer because of its implications?  But knowing will be better than not knowing and living in the constant state of mental turmoil of second guessing yourself.

Physical changes are slow and need not be detectable to anyone for a long long time.  There are ways to mitigate them anyway if that's what you want so nobody ever need know.

You have tried everything else so what other option is left other than continuing to feel as you do now?  Imagine still feeling like this in five years.  Then in ten years and so on right up until the last day 30 or 40 years from now.  Is that really the preferable course?  Is simply trying the one possible course of action to give you peace of mind and some degree of certainty really so horrible?  Maybe it is for you and only you can answer that.  By taking the first option there is certainty.  Life will remain much as it is now.  You will find ways to cope that bring temporary stability but overall you will feel conflicted and depressed for the rest of your life.  With the second option, HRT, there is possible mental relief and a feeling of happiness.  Beyond that relief and potential happiness is a fog through which you cannot see.  What is the end state?   For the most part though you will be in control of where that end state leads.  It can lead wherever you decide.  But you will be in control then.

One thing that would help right now is to stop seeing yourself as a mental defective.  No, it is not the norm and no, it isn't something that one  would desire.  But it is not a defect.  It is simply an unusual alternative.  A defect would cause some degree of reduced functioning to the system, either mental or physical.  This does neither and the only reduced functioning is that externally imposed through societal pressure and self censure.  Breaking this mental self image of "defect" will help and while it will not solve the issue it will allow you to move forward with some degree of confidence.

I like to think of these words from Fleetwood Mac, "You're not like other people, you do what you want to"

Live for yourself, and of course for your immediate family.  Nobody else matters, not at all.  There is freedom there.




Sapere Aude

To answer your original question, how did I know for sure I was trans, honestly, I didn't. I never like to say I'm 100% sure about anything, that's just how I am. I spent a ton of time looking online and in therapy trying to answer that question. Actually, I wanted someone to tell it to me. I didn't trust myself, didn't know myself; didn't know if I was a crossdresser, trans, or just some weirdo who liked to get their jollies off imagining things. I wanted/needed someone smarter than me and someone unbiased to tell me.

I was never feminine growing up, never mistaken for one lol. Tall, hairy, deep voice, big hands/feet. Never saw a girl in the mirror, never imagined I'd ever look like one. Yet, that's what I wanted. I knew that, just didn't trust it I guess?

I never thought I'd ever pass and if that was the case, guess I kinda felt like what was the point? I didn't wanna be seen as a guy in women's clothing. I couldn't handle that myself. I didn't wanna be insulted, laughed at, assaulted, disowned, ostracized, friendless, etc.

However, I was kinda at the point where I felt I had nothing; therefore had nothing to lose by trying, by experimenting. I never really had any close relationships; some friends sure but nobody really close, same with family. Was depressed, hated self, so ya, why not, you know?

I kinda knew what I wanted long ago so I went with it, I went after it. I officially started taking steps towards transition. I kept it private for quite awhile because a. wasn't 100% sure if I was trans or not yet, left me an out to stop if decided to stop later with no one the wiser, my secret safely kept, b. wasn't sure where I'd end up, wasn't sure even where I wanted to end up.

Sure, I thought about it. I thought about it a lot but I never had no set end goal. I never set it in stone that I would go part time, full time, that I would come out to everybody, that'd I'd have this surgery or that. Knew I wanted laser for face, knew I wanted hrt for myself, knew wanted sexy long hair, but that was all. Deal with the rest when it came up, that was the plan. May come up, may not so why worry (if only that was easy to do, lololol). My only real goal was to fix myself, improve myself, be happy with and like myself.

I'd say doing it that way worked for me; taking things slow, step by step, trial and error, experimenting and just letting whatever may come to come, you know? I mean, I worried nonstop about what friends/family/strangers would think. I worried about being alone. Losing everything. Prolly had all the same worries you did. Honestly you can't predict what will happen tho until it does.

I'm not saying jump on the transition train (choo-choo!) or anything but I do think you should do whatever you think would make you happy, cuz that's what matters. Experiment, find out what works and  what doesn't for you.

Quote from: jayne01 on April 13, 2016, 03:49:22 AM
Thanks. That is a good way to put it and I would agree if my decisions only affected me. That is not the case. Any decision I make will affect other people too. People I love and care for. What right do I have to make that kind of choice?

No one lives on an island.  Let me put it the other way around - would these people whom you love and care for be happy to know about this quiet bit of self sacrifice that you're putting yourself under?  Especially if it got to the point of severe depression?

I'm not one to really talk as I've been on HRT for four years and not socially transitioned.  But I've done enough to keep my sanity, and it sounds like you need to stop prevaricating and dip a toe in the water so to speak.

Good luck with whatever decision you make! :)

Quote from: jayne01 on April 13, 2016, 03:49:22 AM
Thanks. That is a good way to put it and I would agree if my decisions only affected me. That is not the case. Any decision I make will affect other people too. People I love and care for. What right do I have to make that kind of choice?

Yeah but your choice is between perhaps ruining somebodies life by transition Vs maybe still doing so by not doing that, because if you were meant to transition and dont then you will be miserable and increasingly psychotic/neurotic and WILL ruin their lives by your being mentally ill anyway!

By extension if you transition and it works out for you, they may in retrospect see you become happier and they may find that this improves their lives. You simply CAN NOT TELL how things will work out!

Its just not a situation where you can duck the potential effects I fear. You can merely choose between affecting somebody one way or another, but whatever you do WILL have an effect and you cant know in advance which will be the positive and which will be the negative - so in trying to avoid harm you may actually CAUSE MORE!

What if the non-transition road is the one which causes you to breakdown have a suicide and ruin your families life because they wanted to help you but were unable to because you wouldnt be honest with them! I've just finished a five week psychiatric rotation - (yes I'm a trainee doctor) - in that rotation I GENUINELY heard a quite similar story from someone who thankfully is still alive but very nearly killed themselves in the false belief that by not being honest about their problem they would spare their family from hurt. They found out the hard way that that simply doesnt work!

So as this is impossible to predict to outcome of, it is a false move to consider the effect on others and that must be ruled irrelevant! You are who you are - and you have to play the hand that has been dealt.

Quote from: jayne01 on April 13, 2016, 03:43:09 AM
Where do I begin!

OK, now we're getting somewhere. Let's break down your transocalypse...

• I don't know the first thing about being a woman.
  You might be surprised at how much you do know, you live with one after all and surely you've observed plenty of her life. Besides, being a woman isn't all that different from being male, we're all human after all. Most of "being a woman" is socialised and learned behaviour. Some of that is good and some of it isn't. As transwomen we're at least fortunate to have not been socialised in some of the mannerisms genetic women grow up with. I'm not quite sure what you believe constitutes "being a woman" but I'd suggest you may know already.
• I walk like a guy, talk like a guy, my mannerisms are male.
  And you believe that 90-95% of all other transwomen have never felt that pre-transition. You're under no obligation to change any of those things unless you want to. If you want to walk, talk and be mannered like a woman you can learn, it's not that hard. I walked and talked like a male prior to transition, and to a degree my mannerisms were male too - and of course they were, if I had walked, talked or acted in anyway female I would have had the crap beaten out of me at school. Trans people learn young to pretend to be their assigned gender because of ridicule or violence. It's all behavioural and can be unlearned and relearned, it's not super straight forward but it can be done with observation and intention.
• I don't know the first thing about makeup, and I would definitely need some if I was not frighten little children.
  Again, you think most trans women knew make-up before transition? Look, as "boys" we were left out of so many little things that girls got the opportunity to try and fail at for years. Transitioning as an adult means getting ahead of the learning curve, but when it comes to make-up it's nothing that several YouTube videos on different techniques won't solve. As for whether you'd frighten small children I wouldn't know, but that can be a useful thing sometimes!
  
• I have no fashion sense at all.
  See above. It is going to be hit and miss at the start. Honestly there are plenty of cis women who have zero sense of fashion. But being a woman isn't all about looking fashionable. My wardrobe is about 50/50 dressy/casual. All I can say is that if you want to look fashionable, if that is a thing you feel you need, then look at what other women are wearing, look at clothes stores and their catalogues - what do you like? What do you not like? Colours? Patterns? Styles? The trick is to figure out what will look good on you for your frame and size. It doesn't happen over night, there are plenty of items I bought which weren't really what I expected they'd be like once I got them home and the same thing happens to cis women too!!
• But all those things pale in comparison to putting my wife in a position to have to accept me as a woman. I love her more than life itself and I can't bear hurting her in any way.
  Yep, I totally get that. But are you hurting her more but being a miserable sack of potatoes? If there's one thing this site has taught me is that the majority of relationships eventually end after one partner comes out as trans. The difference is in whether it is a friendly or acrimonious process. If your wife sees herself as exclusively heterosexual it is highly likely she won't want to stay in an intimate relationship with another woman. How she might feel about you being trans, being a woman, is totally her choice. I can't colour it any other way nor will I try to give you false hope. Maybe it would work out, probably it won't. These are the risks and, unfortunately, sacrifices we face in coming out to significant others. But, better to be true to them, true to ourselves, be free - or live in miserable lies and drag them down with us in the process?
• My parents would be crushed, my brother would be hurt, my sister would probably be the most accepting besides my wife.
  See above. Family relationships are difficult, our family "roles" are very gendered... father, husband, brother, son, uncle. For some people the gender is important, for others the person is more important. Parents put a lot of stock in the "sex" of their child - how we're named, dressed, socialised, schooled, treated and the expectations that flow from being one gender or the other all boil down to our genitals rather than how we identify. So yeah, if that's how your family are treating you then it's very likely they won't be very happy, they will be confused and it may not be great at first. But if they do love you and they are good people then ultimately they will come around. It may take months or years... took my mother about a month, my father about 18 months, my sister still hasn't... and she was the one I expected would be the most supportive. Bottom line, don't presuppose how you believe anyone, even family, will take news of you being trans, unless you are actually a mind reader then the chances are you will be wrong. 
• I work in an all male engineering environment. I love my job, but the people I work with are very much 'guys' guys. They don't strike me as people that would accept a trans person as anything other than a mentally ill freak. I can't know that for certain, but I have heard comments they make when something comes on tv that is trans related, not very nice.
  Yep, some people are utter homophobic, transphobic, misogynist jerks... not much you can do about that. But are you seriously going to let that hold you back? Not that I can talk, my workplace sounds almost the opposite of yours so it was easy to come out. But the fact my colleagues respected me, I believe, made it much easier. Do your colleagues respect you? Being in Australia means you have many anti discrimination laws on your side, if you are treated badly by your employer or other employees you have recourse to those laws.
• Basically it would be the apocalypse you mentioned earlier.
  Maybe, maybe not. You won't know until you know. It sounds like you are thinking well into one particular future, one of many. I won't lie, social transition is really hard, you have to deal with a lot. But as you will have read above, some women take the hormonal transition rather than the social transition, it can ease a lot of the dysphoria if it is the right thing for you. Again, that decision is yours to make, and yours alone. Changes from HRT are not instant, they can take many, many months so it's not like your committed forever with the first pill.

I'd just like to add that not everyone comes to discovering they are trans from a very clear perspective. If you had asked me the "magic button question" a year ago I wouldn't have known the answer. I came to this forum to ask others if I was trans. Now I know how silly that was. It's annoying and a cliche but truly no one else on earth can tell you whether you're trans or not. But just keep in mind that the fact that you are here asking that likely means that you are trans.

Thank you all for really great and well thought out replies.  Whether I am trans or not, whatever it is that is going on with me is the worse thing that has ever happened to me. I can't imagine anything worse.

I don't know if I would ever be able to get to a point where trying HRT is a real option. For me that is the equivalent of climbing Mt Everest. I might be too damaged to accept that as a possibility. 8 months of therapy with 4 therapists and I don't feel like I'm making any progress. I can't help thinking that there is something majorly wrong with me.

Jayne, I can relate to much of what you've said, as I've had a long history of denial, fear and shame.

1996: I saw my first gender therapist. I begged him to tell me that I was mentally ill, and that with the appropriate therapy he could rid me of my dysphoria so that I could live a normal life as a man. Back then, I couldn't think of anything worse than being transgender. After 3 months I ceased therapy because I thought I could beat this with pure willpower.

2004: Back in therapy again with a different gender therapist, and begging her for help. My world was imploding because of the crippling dysphoria. My then wife left me because of my being trans. She described the ebbs and flows of my dysphoria as like being on an emotional rollercoaster, and after 15 years of it, she'd had enough. The thought of transition terrified me, and all I wanted was for the trans nightmare to go away. After finally accepting I was trans I started HRT, and within weeks felt some relief; I was starting to transition. However, about a year and a half later I lost my nerve and ceased HRT, vowing once again I had the willpower to live with the dysphoria.

2014: My world was imploding again because of the incessant and crippling dysphoria. I was desperate so went back into therapy again. The difference this time was I fully accepted being trans and I knew what I needed...HRT.

Like others have already said, I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy, but it's what life has dealt us.

After fighting this beast tooth-and-nail for nearly 50 years, the only things that have brought some lasting relief are: HRT; acceptance of how I was born; and giving myself permission to be me.

I still working on my fear and shame issues that are there because of the way many in society view us.

You don't have to transition socially, but at least consider a trial of low dose HRT.

I can't imagine losing my wife. That would be worse than living with the dysphoria for ever. If my wife was to leave me she would move back to Canada where her family is and I would never see her again. That thought alone makes me sick to the stomach. I fear without my wife, there is a strong chance I would take my own life. That scares the crap out if me. P

I share the viewpoint that losing my spouse to anything would be possibly life ending for me. I don't mind admitting that fact even though many see that as unhealthy.

I vote as others on this thread. A couple months of HRT at a low dose may to decide it for you. I felt so different and so much better soon after starting it. There is a not a lot of risk in doing that.

Quote from: jayne01 on April 13, 2016, 10:16:37 AM
I can't imagine losing my wife. That would be worse than living with the dysphoria for ever. If my wife was to leave me she would move back to Canada where her family is and I would never see her again. That thought alone makes me sick to the stomach. I fear without my wife, there is a strong chance I would take my own life. That scares the crap out if me. P

There are many on here who feel this way about our spouses. I came out to mine about a year ago.

I go through periods where I totally regret it. I feel I have burdened her too much and I should just stay hidden. However, she has noticed how much lighter, more positive and generally nicer I am to be around. She is not dancing and saying, "Yes honey, fully transition today. I would love that." However, she told me that no matter how we end up after working through all this, there is not another way we could have gone. I would have been lying to her(which she would not forgive) I would resent her if I go back and bottle up everything now.

I am on my second month of about as low a dosage of E and Spino as can be had. I am calmer. I am usually happier although at the moment, my  emotions swing pretty quickly. Not bragging about any of that. Just adding my 2 cents of recent experience. I too have been wrestling with the questions you ask. I think Dena nailed it. Most Cis people would not come to this site or question themselves. I would imagine you are trans. What remains is to figure out is where on the spectrum you are.

One last comment and I will get off my horse. Therapists are not there to tell you what you are or what to do. They might suggest things and will help but they are there to guide and assist. They help you work through thoughts, behaviors and emotions, keeping one on track and on a safe path.

Until the science catches up, there is not a doctor who can tell you you are trans(unless you are a doctor). It is frustrating. In a similar bind is the Endocrinologist. Mine asked a lot of questions, after getting a letter from my therapist. When I asked about it, she said treating someone with HRT for Gender Dysphoria is the only prescription she writes without diagnosing herself.

Don't know if any of that is helpful. I hope so but, it's not up to me... ;)

With warmth,

Joanna

Right now I feel like nothing more than a sick twisted pervert weirdo that should never have been born. I have nothing of value to contribute to the world. I'm just a burden that consumes valuable oxygen. I have no purpose whatsoever.

That feeling is depression that is induced by the dysphoria.  I know the feeling well.  It goes away when the dysphoria is treated.


Sapere Aude

Quote from: jayne01 on April 13, 2016, 02:46:50 AM
I have asked myself that many times. If there is a button that can turn me into a biological woman, then there must also be a button that can make the dysphoria go away and just be a normal guy. Either button would be equally appealing to me. I have seen many people's responses to questions like that. Blue pill/red pill, blue button/red button, etc. it seems as though all trans women go for the red button without hesitation. I seem to be the only one that doesn't care which button so long as the dysphoria goes away. I just want to be a normal person. My brain obviously works in strange ways. I think the most accurate answer for me is that I am just damaged goods.

Nobody WANTS to be trans! As Denna said it is not something you'd wish on for another person unless you absolutely hated them.... maybe.

Many a time I wished I could just press the 'Guy' button to make the feelings go away. Even at my ugliest, fatest, six footest, and almost baldest points in my life. I also wished I could hit the button to turn me into a woman. Not a Super-Model but run of the mill I'd settle for. In reality, I wish there was also a button I could press to make me look like a run of the mill guy.

BTW - I think I would hate "Being a normal person" even more then being trans.

I now wish there was a third button. A button that would erase my existence so that it was like I was never born in the first place. The world would be a better place

Quote from: jayne01 on April 13, 2016, 05:58:58 PM
Right now I feel like nothing more than a sick twisted pervert weirdo that should never have been born. I have nothing of value to contribute to the world. I'm just a burden that consumes valuable oxygen. I have no purpose whatsoever.

If I thought that about you, I would spend my time helping somebody else. You are at the decision point were you have to decide if you want to get well or not. The treatment isn't going to be easy but it works. You have time to work with your wife and possibly a complete transition may not be needed. Maybe HRT will be enough. While I was sleeping, you were offered different paths. One path is known and is giving you nothing but discomfort. The other path is unknown but may offer great rewards. If you don't like it, you can back up and return to your current path. What do you have to lose by trying another solutions for a month or two. Explain it to your wife and have your wife see your therapist so she understands how much pain you are currently in. The marriage vows say for better or for worst. If she is true to her words, she will stay with you in your time of need.

I can't live with myself knowing that I am the reason that makes my wife's life "for worse".

Quote from: jayne01 on April 13, 2016, 06:18:25 PM
I can't live with myself knowing that I am the reason that makes my wife's life "for worse".

Have you ask your wife this and has your wife explored this with a therapist? If not, you can't know that. It appears you have spent much of you life sacrificing for your wife to make her life better. If so, it's time for her to do the same. A marriage is an equal partner ship and both of you need to share the hardship as well as the joy. If you can't explain this to her, have her come to the SO section and we will explain this to her.

It isn't your fault you were born the way you were. You have tried hard to live with it but it's destroying you. If you continue to live with it this constant depression is going to end your marriage because your wife will no longer be able to tolerate it. With treatment, you will be able to save yourself and possibly your relationship with your wife.

My wife sacrificed too much for me already. She left her family, friends, job, everything on the other side of the world to be with me. I am all she has here. I am the only reason she moved here. I cannot ask any more sacrifices from her.

What kind of person am I!!!! It would be too selfish of me to expect more sacrifices from my wife to satisfy my own selfish needs. I can't do that to her. It's just plain wrong.

Have you discussed this with her? Has she notice the depression that you have been going through lately that the doctors haven't been able to treat. If you haven't discussed this with her, you are keeping a secret from her and often we find that the longer you do that, the more upset the SO is when they learn the truth. I have seen SOs become upset with secrets lasting as little as half a year. This should be shared as soon as possible.

As I said before, HRT offers an option for you to remain in your current role. Three people on this thread are remaining in their birth role with their extreme urges controlled by HRT. A full transition isn't the only solution to the problem, Yes, your body may change some but you may be able to comfortably present male.

How can you remain male with HRT? Don't you eventually grow breasts even if it's over a long period? That isn't something you could hide.

I really want to thank you all for patiently trying to help me. I know I can be stubborn. It takes me some time to get an understanding of some things. And for me, all things trans are about as foreign concept as you can get. I have never met a trans person. I don't think I have even met a lesbian or gay person. I pretty much grew up under a rock. I grew up believing being lesbian, gay or trans was all a lifestyle choice. I had no idea that it something you have no control over until I joined this forum about 8 months ago. And now that I am finding out that I am probably trans, well it is a little too much for me to process. There is a lot of misinformation that was drilled into me that I need to undo.

I was on what would now be considered low dose for many years, my breast remained a AA and A size which is the smallest american bra cup size. The guys on this site conceal breast much larger than that. Men sometimes have boobs and there are ways to explain away something like that without coming out as trans. If your dysphoria is controlled, you may reach the point that many of us do where we no longer care what other people think of us. Being your own person and willing to tell the world where to go is a liberating feeling.

Another little trick is that people are to polite to ask. In 33 years I have had only about 3 or 4 people ask me about my trans status even though I know far more than that suspected because of my voice. For the most part, it's not a problem.

I would like to add my yes vote, to the Jayne should take low dose HRT ballot. In a prior thread I recommended that you try even smaller steps than low dose HRT, because that is what is working for me and I prefer moving as seamlessly as possible, but now I'm convinced taking low dose HRT is the best option for you, as I think you need to do what requires the least amount of willpower from you to move forward. You would have a prescription from an authority figure, plenty of time to acclimate, and would not need to reveal your changes.

Just to prepare you, I've encountered people who are transgender and are on HRT, but don't feel their life is improving enough and are still experiencing acute gender dysphoria. For this reason, I don't think viewing gender dysphoria as an estrogen or testosterone deficiency is useful for everyone. There are many factors that cause gender dysphoria, so just as your present hurdles are signaling to you, a lack of satisfaction most likely wouldn't be a sign for you to move backwards, but to continue moving forward.

It is impossible to erase the fact that you have existed, so whatever you do will have an effect on those around you. Therefore, even if you can't find the willpower to start low dose HRT for the pleasure of it, I know you care about the fact that the angel you married doesn't want things to continue as they are. Since your wife wants you alive and you can't eliminate your gender dysphoria, you must experience some form of forward movement to mitigate its effect. 

Jayne01 I am in a similar situation to you. I've come to realize that I need to transition, but my wife is putting up heavy resistance. She also gave up a lot and left behind her far away home to marry and live with me. She does not want me to transition and says she will leave me if I do. After she says this she feels bad but she can't stop herself from saying such things either. This is a very tough road to travel, but it is not wrong for us to want to be able to live as our true selves. I have to also figure out how to get through this, but I don't see deciding to delay HRT, etc. indefinitely solves anything - we will both end up miserable. You (and I) deserve to be able to live as your true self rather than having to try to continue for the rest of your life to acting the part others want you to play.

I would like to second Autumn.  If you cannot fully transition, low-dose HRT may be a life saver.  When I started HRT, it greatly diminished my dysphoria within days.  However, it also pretty much eliminated my libido, too.  For me that was not a problem, but for a married person, you would have to contend with a lot more work getting aroused and possibly some decreased performance.

I can only answer from my own experience, but I believe the relief you might get from the gender dysphoria could possibly save your marriage and your sanity. There's no guarantee, but in light of what you have to lose, low-dose HRT is definitely worth trying.

With kindness,

Terri

One of my big concerns in not fully transitioning is the affect on my wife. Though she is supportive, it is to a point. So far that point has been a moving target, in a favorable direction. Her feelings about me being trans and her feelings about me in general have also been moving in a favorable direction these past 7 years since I dropped the T-Bomb. As I started healing I also started becomming a person she can like and even fall in love with again

Over the decades I've been on/off low dose HRT. It was a life saver with it's Brain Reset abilities. As with all things hormones YMMV. On low dose it took many months before things started to take a hit below the belt, which was always my cue to stop. I've been feeling better for while and not being able to perform as a male went against my Prime DIrective of trying to be normal. It wasn't untill a few years ago when I went from low dose to full dose did any real breast growth occur. The almost B cup that I have does not stop me from being able to pass as a guy. What clothes you wear makes a big difference. Being a former fatty I have no form fitting (male) clothes. In male mode it is almost always baggy clothes and NEVER EVER a tight tee. In fem mode it is a LOT different

Not everyone who is trans needs to do a full social transition. You primarily need to ONLY do what you have to to survive. Hopefully with some joy and happiness in your life. If that is just cross-dressing ocassionally, great. It worked for me for decades. The occasional  few weeks on low dose HRT. Also great. Have to go full-time living as a female as soon as possible, also great if that is what you need.

I think it is safe to say at this point in your life, you don't feel that you need to fully transition. There is a universe of options between where you are today and fully transitioning.

Definitely consider low dose to get yourself emotionally stronger and a different perspective. As everyone has said, you can hide the effects if they are more than expected. I am a C cup and if i wanted to i could hide them with wardrobe choices, minimizing bras etc.

Thank you all for your replies. I haven't responded in a few days. All this talk of HRT has kind of scared the crap out if me. It seems like such an enormous step to take. You are probably all thinking that it is not such a big thing, but for me it is gigantic. I can't even bring myself to buy women's clothes to wear at home, and my wife has already said she has no problem with me dressing at home. Last time I had some female clothes I ended up pouring petrol on them and setting them on fire, and that was only a couple months ago. HRT is like jumping out of a plane without a parachute.

I think the only option for me is to try and bury these feelings for as long as I can. If and when they resurface, I suppose I'll go through another breakdown of sorts and then bury them again. Hopefully by then I will be old enough to be at the end of my life. I honestly cannot see any other solution to this. I don't see any light at the end of the tunnel.

Quote from: jayne01 on April 16, 2016, 01:45:54 PM
I think the only option for me is to try and bury these feelings for as long as I can. If and when they resurface, I suppose I'll go through another breakdown of sorts and then bury them again. Hopefully by then I will be old enough to be at the end of my life. I honestly cannot see any other solution to this. I don't see any light at the end of the tunnel.

Let me assure you that after having tried the "bury these feelings..." approach for a good 20 years with a somewhat supportive wife it is THE last thing I'd recommend to anyone. OK... almost last next to substance abuse which will likely follow.

It first took the form of Diversions, Distractions and Denial, or the 3D's as I call them. Just keep yourself too busy physically to even have time for even a once monthly escape from maleness by cross-dressing. Keep you mind so occupied with a thousand and one issues at work, solving problems, making new ones. All which help you say to yourself "I can Beat This" "I Am Beating This"

Except the only thing that is beaten is your life, your soul. You become a machine "Doing what is expected". Your whole reason to exist, is simply to exist and existing means the 3D's. This lifeless, soulless being has just 2 emotions, Anger and Fear. Both fed constantly by shame and guilt.

The irony of it all is that all that you try to preserve, you destroy in the process. In time my wife eventually grew to dislike me, at times even hate. My single mindedness and cartoonish ideal of "Being a guy" led to one disaster after another. Culminating in a cataclysmic event which took away almost every thing I defined myself as and by.

Being well past my Sell-By date was not a time to dredge up being trans crap I long buried or let wither for 30 years. The viable options were few, with one or two offering a Do-Over. So I took on the trans-beast. Not just toying, pretending as I had for decades. My training as an engineer taught me one thing. I knew what did not work... big time

I'm feeling much better now  :D

I don't see any other option than to do what I can to bury these feelings. I already don't have any sense of self. I just exist. I always have. I don't know anything else. I don't have any friends. My wife is all I have, who I love dearly. I have no idea what she sees in me. She obviously sees something that I don't. If I start changing things, I might change the one thing she likes about me and I'll end up losing her. That is too great a risk for me to take.

I have managed to keep this crap buried for over 40 years, what is another 40, assuming I live that long.

Quote from: jayne01 on April 16, 2016, 02:27:57 PM
I don't see any other option than to do what I can to bury these feelings. I already don't have any sense of self. I just exist. I always have. I don't know anything else. I don't have any friends. My wife is all I have, who I love dearly. I have no idea what she sees in me. She obviously sees something that I don't. If I start changing things, I might change the one thing she likes about me and I'll end up losing her. That is too great a risk for me to take.

I have managed to keep this crap buried for over 40 years, what is another 40, assuming I live that long.

I could have written this 7 years ago. It is identical to how I felt. How it was. Another great "Trans Irony" of mine is how I abhor change, as it applies to my life. Otherwise I am a good at tossing hand grenades to shake things up.

I suspect you see just 2 viable options, bury the feelings or yourself. My wife's favorite saying is "There are at least 5 possible solutions to every problem". I can generally come up with 3. My wife has also often said she would rather not find me swinging on the end of a rope from a rafter in the garage. We both have a tendency to put the others happiness above our own.

During the first few years of healing, I've been through quite a few "WTF Am I Doing  ??? ?" meltdowns. Sometimes I'd try to weasel my wife into helping me. Especially during times she was also down or depressed over things. I'd make the offer to stop the insanity if she needed me to.

She's always answer "I don't want you to. You NEED to see where this leads"

While she is not all that thrilled over the change in scenery, she is enjoying where it has led

Jayne, sweetie, I completely understand what you are saying.  There is no rush to do anything.

But you are clearly not happy.  You don't want to lose your wife, and you don't like who you are pretending to be.  There is a small step you could take that might help, and it doesn't involve hormones, or crossdressing, or anything like that.  That feeling that you are trying to desperately to suppress is you.  It's the feminine side of who you are. So express some of it! 

I don't know what your personality is usually like, but you can try to emphasize being a nurturer, and above all a listener. Be a healer and a helper.  Favor cooperation over confrontation. Use female patterns of speech, such as "I feel", or "I think",  or "It may" rather than "It is", or "You are".  Do what a wife does.  Support your partner's hobbies or interests, even if they are not your own.  In other words, cultivate your femaleness. And above all, communicate. It may lessen your dysphoria, and your wife may love it. 

With kindness,

Terri

Change is inevitable do dont with every choice either bury this or do something to confront it there will be change maybe not in an instant but there will be change. Looking at your posts there already has been you came here and asked for advice small change.

If you bury it the next change may ot be as small. So from what i can tell you need to do something. I started writing my thoughts and issues down so i can give to my therapist though in doing this it has given me insights into myself. That alone has vastly improved my moods and got me out of that machine mode a little. Music also has helped I almost never listend to music I liked now I do.

I kind of just reinvested in my own happieness in small ways that can be viewed as a quirks or just a little odd.

This helps with dysphoria that isnt body related for me any way.

Like others have suggested hrt would tell you more but change what you can because no matter what change comes.

Btw I am in the same boat as you with my wife. She doesnt know about any of it therapy trans issue nothing. I have become a wonderful actor over the years.

I like someone suggested have always been a nurturing person and have gotten more so since i figured out my own problems which the people around me seem to like and enjoy.

I hope this helps some.

Quote from: jayne01 on April 16, 2016, 02:27:57 PM
I don't see any other option than to do what I can to bury these feelings.

It's sad that you don't feel you have any options other than burying your feelings, because you do have options! I used to think like you, even after I accepted I was trans. My motto used to be "Whilst I had no choice in being born this way, I DO have a choice in what I do about it". I refused to give myself permission to be me, which over the long-term was a recipe for disaster. By the time I finally stopped denying and burying who I was, I was an absolute mess! I suffered from severe depression, insomnia, migraines, my teeth were becoming extremely worn due to bruxism (a result of anxiety), I was barely functioning both at work and at home. Many years before, I had tried unsuccessfully to top myself, and I wasn't far from trying again.

As far as I'm concerned, the combination of HRT, as well as deciding to at least partially transition have not only saved my life, but has given me a new lease on life; something I never thought possible. Family, friends and even colleagues have remarked how much happier and laid-back I am these days. If long-term the compromise of a partial transition isn't enough, then I will seriously consider fully transitioning.

Jayne, there ARE options that can result in genuine happiness for you.

Quote from: Maybebaby56 on April 16, 2016, 03:19:14 PM
That feeling that you are trying to desperately to suppress is you.  It's the feminine side of who you are. So express some of it! 

Ditto

Jayne,

You say you've buried this for 40 years......but clearly you haven't. Try as hard as we might the burial technique does not work. We just end up hating ourselves because we cannot get over and get on with this very central part of us - our transness. In the end I think we have no option but to take it on board. It's just not possible to continue hating oneself and live a part ways happy life.

I understand your fear of the effect on your wife, however she appears to want to work through this with you. Surely there has to be a better way of living your life rather than hating yourself and writing yourself off? You say you're stubborn, but that's not what's going to help you right now. Please open yourself up to what other possibilities are out there. That has to be better than "burial" now or "burial" in the future.

Hi Jayne
Just a quick post to say I'm thinking of you:)
I agree with most posts, from my experience with Chris to Chrissy... It's best to not bury yourself. But I understand how scary this is and also from your wife's point of view as well, she appears very supportive and an amazing lady... As you're to!
:) Marie


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Significant other
Heterosexual woman

Hi, Jayne. You sound like you're where I was 5 years ago. I had managed to somewhat repress the dysphoria for a decade, but I was growing increasingly unhappy.  My life and my marriage were falling apart and there is no question I would've hit that second button just to make all the feelings go away.  But they don't. I finally talked to someone about my dysphoria and my world opened up.  I told my wife a year ago and we are closer than ever. It took a lot to get to this point and we went through rough times (she had to be hospitalized after a breakdown). I feel horrible sometimes for what I feel like I'm doing to her, but I'm just trying to be true to myself.

My advice is: talk to her. She has to have some idea that suffering.  You don't have to lay everything out on the table, but let her know you're hurting and you just can't make sense of it. Maybe do it with a counselor present. You just can't go on another 40 years like this. Good luck and hugs!

Charlotte


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Quote from: jayne01 on April 16, 2016, 01:45:54 PM
my wife has already said she has no problem with me dressing at home. Last time I had some female clothes I ended up pouring petrol on them and setting them on fire, and that was only a couple months ago. HRT is like jumping out of a plane without a parachute.

Sorry, but she already said she is cool with you trying things like dressing at home?  Maybe dressing femininely isn't your thing then (everything is worth trying once, but maybe not twice).  Also, from what you've said, it sounds like she thought it was worth leaving a past life for you, and you obviously care so much for her.  Pretty sweet and cute couple I bet (Sorry, I doubt this is helpful, but...)

Have you tried, like, really low doses of things that affect your hormonal levels?  My whole experience so far (in life, really) is just trying new things, so I tried doing the PCOS dietary adjustments (Poly Cystic Ovary Syndrome, its a condition for women where their testosterone levels are too high)  For me, it was mostly cutting out foods high in sat. fat (trying to lose weight anyway), drinking like 4-5 cups of spearmint tea a day, drinking smoothies with TONS of flax seed, and taking saw palmetto.  After a week, I felt a lot more calm and at peace, and so I'm taking that simply as evidence that maybe testosterone hurts my emotional stability.  And so I continued, but I may never end up getting HRT.

Have you read the Null HypotheCis?  If you haven't (you can google it, its pretty short), it hit me that it is pretty impossible to say for sure you are cisgender.  It also hit me that its equally impossible to say for sure that I'm transgender.  So I'm taking it like that, I can't say for sure overall, but all I can do is guess, day by day.  The magic button question only really helped me put points to the trans column, I don't feel like anything will put me as for sure trans. 

Also, I wouldn't wish being trans on my worst enemy, b/c for some people, it really seems recognizing their transness helps them find inner peace, beauty, and strength (and why would I want my enemies to be more fulfilled versions of themselves :D).  I mean, how many people here think that they would have been better off in life finding that the reason for their dysphoria wasn't gender related but something unknown?  Once I finish chipping away at the remnants of my internalized transphobia and homophobia that I feel I've absorbed in life, I expect I'll be a happier person, and that's the dream. 

Keira

#transisbeautiful

Hi everyone. Thank you so much for your replies. I have been reading them all but haven't responded because frankly, I'm a little overwhelmed with it all. There is a lot of information that I am trying to process. There are so many of you willing to share information to try and help me, a total stranger. I have never experienced anything like that before. I don't quite know how to handle it. Thank you so much.

I have an appointment with my therapist today. I sent her an email last week telling her that I was getting nowhere and was thinking of stopping my therapy sessions so that she can spend her time helping other people rather than beating her head against the wall with me. She kind of insisted I keep my appointment today. I suspect I might be in trouble for beating up on myself.

So many of you knew or at least suspected something was going on with your gender from a relatively young age. I didn't clue in until 43. My therapist tells me I became a master at suppressing things. Even from myself. It is only now in hindsight that I realise that there was something not quite right throughout my life. Sometimes I wish I had never started therapy. I would not have dig up those old memories and I would have once again been blissfully ignorant suppressing things.

You are not a stranger, you are one of us and we are your brothers and sisters in this. As you learn more, you will see this and it will become difficult for you to refuse help to somebody who is just starting to learn who they are. Therapy is great and you should continue it but there is nothing like somebody who has been there and really understands what it's like.

The people I knew in the past for the most part knew they were different from an early age and where transitioning much older because they couldn't obtain treatment before then. At 13, it hit me like a ton of bricks and there was no ignoring it so it was a long and painful wait until I could obtain treatment. The people transitioning late in life surprise me a good deal because they had to have kept this bottled up for a long time. In your case, what drove you to therapy in the first place was because you weren't happy in life as the result of suppressing these feelings. Therapy was in you future for a long time and suppression is no longer working. I understand why you don't want to face it but you will be much happier when you do.

Jayne

You are not a stranger. Your story is the story of so many of us. These struggles are not unusual and your fears are understandable.

I hope you are able to make the decision  that makes you happy in the short and long term.

Take care,


Ros

Whatever you decide to do in the short term after seeing your therapist we are here to listen and maybe to help a little.  So don't go away again.  If anybody can understand your pain it is us.


Sapere Aude

Quote from: jayne01 on April 17, 2016, 02:03:35 PM
So many of you knew or at least suspected something was going on with your gender from a relatively young age. I didn't clue in until 43.

Actually, I've read quite a few stories of discoveries at ages 30-70.  That isn't too uncommon, right?  We're not all like that 6 year old girl on the "How to be a Girl" podcast, so sure of herself.  Good for her to get things more right early on, but geez, really made me feel like I'm crazy and not actually trans. 

You are all so very nice. I feel like I don't deserve your kindness because I seem so set in my ways and unwilling to change. Well, it is not that I am unwilling to change, but I don't want to change without being certain and yet there seems to be no certainty in this stuff. If this is a medical condition, how is it with all the moderns science there is not medical test to confirm whether someone is trans or not? It's ok for the people who have confidence and trust their own feelings. What about when you cannot trust your own feelings? I cannot trust myself. I don't know if what I am thinking or feeling is coming from me or if it is something that has been influenced on me by reading other people's stories and somehow making them my own. That may not make sense to some of you, but I cannot distinguish between what is my reality or a reality that I have imagined for myself. I don't know how to explain it other than to say I don't trust my own thoughts. So how can I know if I am trans?

Deborah, I was actually thinking of leaving again, but I changed my mind.

Thank you all for being so kind.

Hi Jayne,

I can certainly understand how you feel.  My friend Suzi told me something that has stuck with me.  She said something like, "Don't spend so much time deciding what you are, it's deciding how you want to live that's important."

Blessings to you,

Terri

I just want to live like a normal guy. I want to be a normal guy.

Quote from: jayne01 on April 12, 2016, 11:22:37 PM
Hello. I have been reading through this forum trying to find a solution to my twisted sick mind and I cannot find anything. I have spend thousands of dollars seeing 4 different therapists (3 of them with extensive trans experience) over the past 6-8 months and it seems I am no better off now than before I started.

The only thing I have been able to determine from this forum and my therapists is that I am the only one who can determine if I am trans or not. I am not even confident in making the right decision about what I want to eat for lunch, how can I possibly be qualified to decide something as incredibly huge and life changing as whether or not I am transgender.

My whole life I have lived with people second guessing every decision I have ever made. I have no confidence whatsoever in myself when it comes to making any kind of decision. There is no medical test I can take to determine if I am trans. How can I possibly know? I feel like a total freak, a Frankenstein, an abomination. The only thing I'm reasonably certain of is that I should have ever been born.

How do you know for certain you are trans?

J

I think a positive step you can take is to not to describe yourself as having "a sick, twisted mind". You evidently don't have a "sick, twisted mind". You are not harming or abusing anyone else, but are simply trying to establish whether you are trans or not.

Why don't you just take it that you are trans as a working hypothesis. Take some small initial steps. If later, you have feelings that indicate you may not be trans, then you can simply revise this hypothesis and move on. No harm will have been done to yourself or anyone else.

I wish you all the best.

The Quest For or Fallacy of Normal
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,207946.msg1844158.html#msg1844158 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,207946.msg1844158.html#msg1844158)

Self doubt. I had plenty of that because nobody could tell me what caused it. We had 3 theories.
1. Environmental - The way our parents raised us.
2. Genetic - Some untestable combination of genes caused it.
3. Something cause before birth, possibly hormone influenced.

Not only was there not test, but there wasn't an agreement as to what caused it. Without knowing what caused it, maybe it could be treated and cured through therapy. Medical science could offer me nothing in the way self understanding but yet, I was in pain and I knew that I couldn't continue to live with it. I decided to try something else and that was to transition and see if it solved the problem.

Unlike today, blockers were not available so the only way we had of cutting testosterone productions was a stiff dose of estrogen. For some of the girls, it worked and they reported results that many see when taking the blockers. In my case it didn't and I spent about 5 years on HRT and 2.5 years cross living unsure if this was going to make a difference. Post surgical the question was answered and I knew I made the right decision.

The answer to the question how do I know for sure? I didn't know but I knew what I was doing didn't work so it was time to try another approach.

Your approach for now should be to ask the doctor for blockers. Your body will stay the same and if it buys you peace of mind or even an improvement, you have your answer.

I just saw my therapist this morning. She confirmed what I always knew but didn't really know how to explain.

I cannot make decisions that are based on emotions. I have trouble reading my own emotions. I am very good at intellectual/analytical based decisions, which is why I am very good at my job. But when it comes down to deciding whether I am trans or not, it's all a mystery to me because that is an emotional decision. It is about whether I "feel" trans or "feel" like a woman on the inside. At the moment, I am unable to figure it out because my feelings and emotions are not that easy for me to understand.

It probably explains why I keep going round in circles and keep looking for some definite proof or a test to determine if I am trans. It's my analytical brain trying to take over and decide something that is based on emotions. It is never going to work that way.

So even though I made no progress on working out whether I am trans or not, let alone what to do about it, I made progress in finding the root cause of why I don't trust my own judgement. Pretty good result for today I think.

Quote from: jayne01 on April 12, 2016, 11:22:37 PM
Hello. I have been reading through this forum trying to find a solution to my twisted sick mind and I cannot find anything. I have spend thousands of dollars seeing 4 different therapists (3 of them with extensive trans experience) over the past 6-8 months and it seems I am no better off now than before I started.

The only thing I have been able to determine from this forum and my therapists is that I am the only one who can determine if I am trans or not. I am not even confident in making the right decision about what I want to eat for lunch, how can I possibly be qualified to decide something as incredibly huge and life changing as whether or not I am transgender.

My whole life I have lived with people second guessing every decision I have ever made. I have no confidence whatsoever in myself when it comes to making any kind of decision. There is no medical test I can take to determine if I am trans. How can I possibly know? I feel like a total freak, a Frankenstein, an abomination. The only thing I'm reasonably certain of is that I should have ever been born.

How do you know for certain you are trans?

J

Okay this is going to be harder said then done but take a step back and calm yourself down
You're not a freak or a abomination. You're a human who has questions and is looking for answers.
Sometimes i feel similar. How did i know i was transgender that came over time and it came over a lot
of doubts and struggles that i still have that i am working on. However i'm going to take that scary road
because inside my head is the answer and living life not as who i am is going to get me hurt more.
I don't know if this will help but: Even scientists don't always know the answer, and sometimes they have to risk it to understand to know something. And doctors without taking that step or risk they wouldn't save lives. What i'm trying to say is i don't know if they'll ever be a answer but sometimes listening to our hearts have gotten us answers we needed and done wonderful things and ended up helpful. Listen to your heart and your heart will lead you even if its scary. And remember you're not! a freak you're a wonderful person
who has the ability to discover who you are inside. :) I wish you luck. 

Quote from: jayne01 on April 17, 2016, 08:04:14 PM
You are all so very nice. I feel like I don't deserve your kindness because I seem so set in my ways and unwilling to change. Well, it is not that I am unwilling to change, but I don't want to change without being certain and yet there seems to be no certainty in this stuff. If this is a medical condition, how is it with all the moderns science there is not medical test to confirm whether someone is trans or not? It's ok for the people who have confidence and trust their own feelings. What about when you cannot trust your own feelings? I cannot trust myself. I don't know if what I am thinking or feeling is coming from me or if it is something that has been influenced on me by reading other people's stories and somehow making them my own. That may not make sense to some of you, but I cannot distinguish between what is my reality or a reality that I have imagined for myself. I don't know how to explain it other than to say I don't trust my own thoughts. So how can I know if I am trans?

Deborah, I was actually thinking of leaving again, but I changed my mind.

Thank you all for being so kind.

It is not a question of deserving. Even if you can't make  a decision based on feelings or emotions, that does not stop the rest of us from seeing ourselves in you. It is like family. Our (for the most part) "birth defect" gives us a related back ground. You may not see it without emperical data but we recognize it. That is why want to help.

Dena and others are right. There are a number of us who did not come to grips with this till much later. I stated in my last  post here that I only came to that conclusion(a lot like you, looking for science and proof to back me up) about a year ago. To be more clear, I am 51. I cross dressed and purged the clothes for decades and asked my self questions for years. I even blocked the memory of some of this out, till I started casting back and thinking about other experiences and evidence I had. However, I never allowed myself to think I might be something other than what others could see. I just thought I was a pervert, monster, abomination...     Sound familiar?

I am not saying I know you or what is the right thing to do. However, I see you casting around in many directions trying to make your arguments and react and ask questions and react and, and, and

Whirling dirvish. Wow, I think I remember doing that too but mostly with myself.

I am sorry you are so uncomfortable. This is not easy and very few people look upon being trans as something they are happy about. How do you move next is the question. That is the question I ask myself every day now. Still don't have all the answers.

I hope you find what you are looking for.

With warmth,

Joanna

Quote from: jayne01 on April 17, 2016, 08:25:28 PM
I just want to live like a normal guy. I want to be a normal guy.

Not to be snarky (really!), but we can want a lot of things we can't have.  As the Rolling Stones sang:

Quote
You can't always get what you want
You can't always get what you want
You can't always get what you want
But if you try sometimes well you just might find
You get what you need

I used to think my problem was that I just wasn't trying hard enough.  I needed to make myself do X, Y, Z, whatever.  I had to be "the captain of my soul" and whip myself into shape.  I had to tell the part of me that wasn't my conscious mind to just shut up and do as it was told.

It never worked.  It was a ridiculous failure.  I was just fighting myself.  This little part of myself that I thought of as "me" was trying to control a much larger self and it was as impossible as grabbing your shoelaces and pulling yourself up into the air.

Finally, around 12 years ago, I gave up.  I decided to try listening to the rest of "me," which was hard because I had taken its voice away (mostly.)  I started relaxing and going with the flow.  I stopped insisting on some image of myself and just saw what happened when I followed my feelings.

IT HAS BEEN WONDERFUL!!

I've finally started being able to see and deal with the demons that have hounded me my whole life.  My episodes of self-hatred and suicidal urges are finally getting less intense.  The inner 11-year-old whose misery has cast a pall over my soul for the past 50 years is getting less miserable and more hopeful.  I'm starting to look forward to life instead of only looking forward to dying.  I still get depressed, but it doesn't overwhelm me the way it used to.

And life is fun, and exciting (in a good way.)

It's also been scary, especially when I start imagining all the things that can happen.  Especially since I can't see where this is taking me, at least not very far down the road.  I have to let that inner voice calm me, the way a mother calms an anxious toddler.

But I would not give this journey up for the world.

Quote from: jayne01 on April 18, 2016, 12:50:32 AM
I just saw my therapist this morning. She confirmed what I always knew but didn't really know how to explain.

I cannot make decisions that are based on emotions. I have trouble reading my own emotions. I am very good at intellectual/analytical based decisions, which is why I am very good at my job. But when it comes down to deciding whether I am trans or not, it's all a mystery to me because that is an emotional decision. It is about whether I "feel" trans or "feel" like a woman on the inside. At the moment, I am unable to figure it out because my feelings and emotions are not that easy for me to understand.

It probably explains why I keep going round in circles and keep looking for some definite proof or a test to determine if I am trans. It's my analytical brain trying to take over and decide something that is based on emotions. It is never going to work that way.

So even though I made no progress on working out whether I am trans or not, let alone what to do about it, I made progress in finding the root cause of why I don't trust my own judgement. Pretty good result for today I think.

I was very much like you. Give me a problem, any problem, and a bit of time to play out every which, And, But, What If, and I'll have THE mitigation. It pays well. It is a fearsome talent, except when it came to ME. To which there was only one answer, Doom & Gloom. No Hope. Just keep plodding along and hope no one notices.

Today I am not much better, but better I am. The steps you take to solve every other problem in the universe is the same. The hard part is disassociating your emotions from the answer(s). As well as always keeping in mind there is no perfect solution. Everything in life is a comprise, even your own

Quote from: JoanneB on April 18, 2016, 08:21:12 PM

The hard part is disassociating your emotions from the answer(s).

I don't have trouble disassociating my emotions. I have trouble associating my emotions.......with anything. If my emotions are "speaking" to me, it is in a language I don't understand.

Quote from: jayne01 on April 18, 2016, 09:08:16 PM
I don't have trouble disassociating my emotions. I have trouble associating my emotions.......with anything. If my emotions are "speaking" to me, it is in a language I don't understand.

Fear, Shame, Guilt are insidious in how they manifest themselves

Quote from: JoanneB on April 18, 2016, 09:41:41 PM
Fear, Shame, Guilt are insidious in how they manifest themselves

I'm sorry, I don't understand. What do you mean?

Quote from: jayne01 on April 18, 2016, 09:43:08 PM
I'm sorry, I don't understand. What do you mean?

I never thought of it that way but those would be the emotions that prevent us from accepting ourself as transgender. I suspect you are feeling at least one and most likely more than one of those emotions.

From everything I hear it is women that are in touch with their emotions and it is the men who are not not in touch with them. That sounds like I must be a guy. I couldn't be any more out of touch with my emotions. So much so that I think I have more in common with a robot than a human. If I was trans and identified as a woman, wouldn't I be in touch with my emotions? This is totally doing my head in. How can I not know what I am feeling? I have no description for anything other than happy or sad. I feel so stupid.

No you are in no way stupid.

I had very little emotion beyond depression and sadness prior to HRT. Then when I was on HRT I was an emotional time bomb, a walking box of kleenex!

Funny, years after transitioning I had a coffee with my original therapist and I asked him when he knew I was trans, I was looking for the diagnostic sign.

His response?

"As soon as you walked into my office."

I asked how did you know?

"Why else would you have come to see me? You just needed guidance."

I would say Depression/Sadness and Anger were the only two emotions I ALLOWED myself to recognize. But there was plenty of other corks in the ocean my subconscious was trying to hold down before I began the Herculean task of beginning to accept myself or resign myself to the simple facts of I am trans and what I've been trying to do about for the last 40 years was absolutely not working.

So, as in Sienfeld, I adopted the Opposite George way of doing things.  ;D

This might or might not be helpful but have you ever taken a Myers-Briggs Type Indicator personality test?  You can find them free on the Internet. 

I have found the test to be uncannily accurate in describing me and it did unlock some doors to understanding myself, the way I think, and the way I interact with others.  It did help with coming to peace with myself amidst all the turmoil of being trans.  FWIW, the test tells me I'm an INFP.  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/INFP


Sapere Aude

Pre transition I tried to decide which character I was most like on Star trek and while I disliked the answer, it was Spock. I had years of suppressing emotions just so I could get through the day and just like Spock, enough leaked out to cause me depression. After you come to terms with your self and allow yourself to feel everything, your view of your emotions will change.

Stupid you are not. You are facing a difficult problem that no CIS has ever face. Some transgender people never face it because they have always known. Those of us who discover it latter have a much more difficult time coming to terms with it because we understand at every level the impact it might have on our life. You are still trying to fight an impossible battle avoiding the issue and returning to a CIS existence. You might be able to avoid the transition but to be happy with yourself, something will need to change.

I just tried that Myers-Briggs test. I tried 5 tests from 5 different websites and came up with 4 different results. I don't think it could accurately describe me. I found the test very difficult and at least half the questions I didn't know how to answer. I guess I'm just an oddball.

I'm really regretting ever starting therapy and trying to find out what is wrong with me. All it has achieved is highlight a whole bunch of new problems to make me feel even worse about myself. Over the past 8 months I have felt more consistently bad about myself than I ever had throughout my entire life. They say ignorance is bliss. And now that I have uncovered all this new crap, I don't see anyway to ignore it.

I function like a robot. I am. It equipped to deal with emotions, and all this trans stuff is bringing up all these emotions that I am ill equipped to deal with. I would like to know what I did that was so wrong to deserve this punishment. I could go out and murder someone and get less punishment. Where is the justice in that?

The worse thing I ever did was to think that I might be trans.

You did nothing wrong. Much like a child born with a birth defect, you were born different than most people. The current numbers are about 1 in 600 are born this way. Strange and it may sound is I look at it as a blessing. Instead of being just like everybody else, I have looked at the world through two different sets of eyes and have experienced many thing that most people would find hard to imagine. Yes, there were may years of coming to terms with myself but like a piece of steel, proper fire and quenching will result in a metal that's much stronger and more useful than before. Right now you are in the worst of it but it passes and went it does, you will start to have real happiness.
"That which does not kill us, makes us stronger."  Friedrich Nietzsche

When I was trying to figure myself out someone online told me that cisgender people generally do not question their gender. After giving this statement some serious thought I realized how true it is and that is when I came to terms with being transgender, although I still can't tell if I'm transsexual or not.

I have read through every reply you have given to the answers, and all the replies themselves.

At the end of the day, this topic could go on for 500 more pages of circular back and forth talking but none of us here are qualified psychologist's, therapists or gender specialists (as far as I know). So that means our advice can only go so far in helping you. 

The most important thing is that only you can decide what to do, none of us can make you do anything, in the end that decision comes from yourself and yourself alone.

Instead of posting paragraph after paragraph about how much you hate it, it would be a realistic, mature and adult thing to go to a therapist, a doctor or a psychologist and discuss these feelings. If you are too lazy or afraid to even do that then there is nothing anyone can do to help you.

Also your comments about ''thinking you were trans is the worst thing to happen to you'' is demeaning to trans people.

Quote from: Dena on April 19, 2016, 08:53:26 PM
Pre transition I tried to decide which character I was most like on Star trek and while I disliked the answer, it was Spock. I had years of suppressing emotions just so I could get through the day and just like Spock, enough leaked out to cause me depression. After you come to terms with your self and allow yourself to feel everything, your view of your emotions will change.

...

I was the same way years ago, the difference was that I did not have to find the Star Trek character myself because one of my friends actually said that I'm like Spock...
Even the psychologist who wrote my first letter said that I show very little emotion on my face which is very true as I suppressed my emotions so long I forgot how to even show them.
As I am allowing myself to feel more and more I realize that there is a lot more to my emotions than what I experienced in the past and that I have to spend a lot of time to connect to them but I'm getting closer every day.

Quote from: Jestwacked on April 20, 2016, 09:36:00 AM
I have read through every reply you have given to the answers, and all the replies themselves.

At the end of the day, this topic could go on for 500 more pages of circular back and forth talking but none of us here are qualified psychologist's, therapists or gender specialists (as far as I know). So that means our advice can only go so far in helping you. 

The most important thing is that only you can decide what to do, none of us can make you do anything, in the end that decision comes from yourself and yourself alone.

Instead of posting paragraph after paragraph about how much you hate it, it would be a realistic, mature and adult thing to go to a therapist, a doctor or a psychologist and discuss these feelings. If you are too lazy or afraid to even do that then there is nothing anyone can do to help you.

Also your comments about ''thinking you were trans is the worst thing to happen to you'' is demeaning to trans people.

I'm sorry I have offended you. If you had read through all the replies as you have stated, you would know that I have been seeing a therapist for over 8 months now. 4 different therapists in fact. 3 which specialise in gender stuff and 2 of which I am still seeing regularly on a weekly basis as my work schedule permits. I am not too lazy or afraid to see a therapist.

Also, me saying that thinking I might be trans is the worst thing to ever happen to me is a true statement. That statement applies to me and me alone. I do not have any prejudice or discriminatory feelings towards anybody whether it be based on sex, race, gender identity or anything else. It is not the possibility of being trans that I consider to be the worse thing to happen to me. It is the struggle that I am going through and the difficulties I am having (due to me questioning my gender) that is the worse thing to happen to me.

If I worded my statement in such a way that my message wasn't clear, and I have offended you, then I apologise. It is not my intention to offend anybody.

J

In my HS years mom shanghaied me. I wound up in a psychs office having to "explain" why she (mom) found my stash (of clothes) a few times. "I was sloppy" was not the right answer.

Somehow this idiot teenager was able to convince a learned person of letters "It was a phase"

Humans have an uncanny ability to convince themselves of all sorts of things. Especially when you throw in the "What Answer DO they expect" or "What Answer Will Give..." factors.

Which.... As much as I hate to say it, or admit to it, IS where and what a therapist is for. To ask you the hard questions you won't ask yourself and especially, won't let you weasel your way around the answer. If you don't really know, it's fine. You never thought about it before being put on the spot.

Of course, this per-supposes you are as forth right and honest as you can be, At That TIme. Answers to such questions usually do change over time in my case. In both directions  :o

The clincher for me came in a long hot bubble bath having my usual thought of "If a genie appeared right now and offered to transform me into an attractive female for the rest of my life just how many heartbeats would I wait before screaming yes".

Lamenting the lack of a genie a new thought entered my mind

"If I would accept such a gift via magic would I accept it from the hands of man?"

This led to me thinking about how far would I go to get the body I have always wanted.

That question was the last, removing all other doubts I was officially a transsexual female.

Note - I am admittedly a bit shallow attractiveness is important to me. I have been a machine, an animal and even a monster in this life but like many girls I want to be pretty someday.

Sent from my GT-I9195I using Tapatalk

Hey jayne, I think I can relate to some of the things you've said, and to me it sounds like you have a lot of anxiety. And I don't mean the natural kind of anxiety anyone would have from contemplating these issues. It sounds like the kind of anxiety I've dealt with--a deep, crushing, pointless anxiety that attaches itself to anything you think about.

For me, the anxiety was so omnipresent and I was so used to it that it didn't occur to me that it was a problem. I thought all of the things that I was anxious about were the problems, when the problem was the fact that I was always so anxious about everything. Maybe something like this is keeping you from getting clarity on your gender identity?

And maybe you could bring this up with a therapist? Lots of people will tell you that starting HRT helps with anxiety (and I'm one of them) but there are other things you can do to help with anxiety, and a therapist could help you go over your options. Then with a clearer state of mind, maybe you can make some progress on sorting out your gender confusion.

The therapist never mentioned anything about anxiety. When it comes to dealing with the gender stuff, yes, I have just about every condition there is, anxiety, depression, etc, etc.....

If you remove the gender stuff from the equation there is not many things that bother me. Except that the gender stuff has been going on for long enough that it is all a but of a blur as to which problem came first and is the root cause of the other problems. I do have some social anxiety, however. I don't do well in large gatherings and don't easily meet new people, but I have improved greatly in that area as I have gotten older.

I am now convinced more than ever that there is no solution to my problems. Both my therapists agree that I have trouble identifying with emotions and have both heck me some homework to get more in touch with emotions. It has only been two days since my last therapist session and this emotion business is a total disaster.

All I feel is depression, anger, isolation, emptiness, sadness and a whole bunch of other negative stuff that I can't think of a name for. I have not felt worse about myself than I have these past two days. It totally sucks.

I came on to this forum to see if I have anything to offer and help other people to maybe make me feel better about myself. There were a few posts that I could relate to and thought I could add something but then thought better if it. The only thing I had to offer was my own depressing version of the story and that isn't going to help anybody. I have no way to relate to other people. So rather than making me feel better, I ended up feeling even worse.

I am more than likely going to delete my account.....again. It is not right for me to keep coming here and just continue taking and not offering anything back in return. You have all offered me lots o advice, but I just don't think I can start taking hormones. I don't have the right to affect other people's lives like that if I start taking HRT. I am only one person, and others are many. It is not fair for my actions to negatively impact so many others. I'm sorry I could not be more useful here at Susan's.

J

I shouldn't say much being in a similar boat than you are but.. you only live goddamn once (depending on what your believes are). You have EVERY right to be who you want to be, obviously you're struggling with yourself and especially your identity and you'll keep doing so, it's inevitable. I know if I'm not doing anything myself, I'll keep sinking into depressions like I have all my life, really not nice to play an act everyday to please others or society.

I always love a good irony.

Over the past several weeks thanks to North Carolina about 99% of the BS being spewed out about TG is that "They have (obvious) mental issues", etc., and of course the got to love it "THERE IS NO DEFINITIVE TEST FOR........"

Now, where have I seen this many times before?

Can you say "Internalized Transphobia"? I sure have a few too many pounds of it I carry around.

QuoteThe therapist never mentioned anything about anxiety. When it comes to dealing with the gender stuff, yes, I have just about every condition there is, anxiety, depression, etc, etc.....

I saw my first ever therapist about 7 years ago for help in loosing all the baggage and not for transitioning. Been there tried it twice, not for me. Because of where and who I worked for, as well as Trans Care Exclusions in my insurance, I was concerned how the visits were coded.

He answered "Depression. I haven't seen a TG who wasn't depressed"

When I changed jobs, moved back home to NJ and eventually found a for real gender therapist I once again asked how the visits are coded because of insurance exclusions

She answered "Anxiety. I haven't seen a TG who didn't suffer from anxiety"

Jayne,
You appear to be trying to look at the logically.
I am near where you are and there is little logic.

For example - logic would suggest that given I have lived 40 years as a guy, life would be easier if I could just forget all this transgender stuff and get on with living. The problem is these feelings do not surrender to logic. They exist at a level that I cannot understand - but they are there. Not everything in life can be explained or proven.

Emotions. Your therapist has likely explained that your mind could have built up a defence mechanism to shield you from your emotions because boys are taught we should not show them. For me the catalyst was having children. Once we had children mentally I changed - I no longer felt the need to shield myself from my emotions. I am not saying for you to have children, I am just saying that you may not be able to force open that emotional block. It will take time.

If you wish you can bundle this up as something you don't like or don't explain - but you tried ignoring it before and it never went away -so ignoring now will likely have a no different outcome.

Lastly I think it was Albert Einstein who said "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results".

Take care
Cass

I cannot understand why nobody can come up with a diagnosis and tell me whether or not I am trans. A therapist can tell me I have depression and anxiety by observing me and seeing my symptoms. Why can't they diagnose whether or not I am trans the same way they diagnose depression and anxiety? It doesn't make any sense to me. What makes being trans any different to being depressed or anxious? They are all medical conditions of the brain. I don't understand why being trans is left up to the individual.

I fix planes for a living. If a pilot has an issue with the plane, they will give me a list of symptoms and I possibly run some additional tests and come up with a diagnosis and fix the problem. The pilot doesn't come up with the diagnosis, they just report the symptoms. Similarly, if I am feeling unwell, I go to the doctor and tell them my symptoms. They then come up with a diagnosis, possibly after running some tests, and then proceed to fix me.

So why is it that I go see a therapist, give them all my symptoms (dysphoria, etc), they ask me a bunch of questions, listen to me tell them all my woes and yet they still won't come up with a diagnosis. I am still expected to know for certain what ails me.

The pilot operates the plane and is an expert at doing that. But I am the expert at knowing how the plane is put together and how it all works. I am the one that operates my body and I know how to do that. But the medical professionals are the ones that know how the body is all put together and how it all works. Just like the pilot, I have a very limited knowledge of how the machine I operate functions, but I am no expert. So why do all the experts refuse to tell me what is wrong with this machine that is me?

Your therapist already knows as does everybody reading this thread. You are transgender and even you said earlier that you have accepted the fact. What you are not accepting is the treatment because of the change it will make in your life. Unfortunately I have seen this before on the site. People will come to the site, explore and then leave the site for months to years until they finally reach the point that the discomfort can no longer be tolerated. They then return and regret the time they wasted.

We will continue working with you as long as you don't give up. We had our own difficulty getting around some road block in the past just like you are now. It's not a question of will you move to the next stage of treatment but when.

The transgender feeling is as much a part of you as your sexual preference. You are not questioning your sexual preference even though it's just as emotional as the transgender feeling.

As for fixing you, you are the only one who can do that and you find it hard to accept the treatment. I don't know if part time, full time or surgery is in your future because you haven't moved far enough to tell me but the doctor will not be able to give you a pill other than HRT that will help you with this. So far you have refused to consider the blockers which might answer your question.

Although I thought I was I wanted to be sure and to rule out insanity or some other such thing.  So I went to a therapist and at the end of the second visit asked if he had a diagnosis.  He told me outright that it was pretty clear to him that I was trans.  So if your therapist will not tell you that then maybe you need a new one.  If he has told you that already then there is nothing more to say.  There is no cure.  There are only treatments to relieve the distress with the least invasive being HRT.

Why some know early and some do not is a good question without a simple answer.  I expect that back in the days when there was absolutely no information available there was some complex psychology at work in how each individual thinks, processes information, analyzes situations, and makes decisions coupled with the severity of the dysphoria at an early age.


Sapere Aude

Hi Dena,

I appreciate your advice, I really do. You have first hand experience and reading your replies to me and others, I can tell you really care.

The problem for me is that this forum is still very anonymous because I have never met anyone here in person. None of my therapists have ever suggested I start taking any blockers it HRT and they are the medical professionals that know me personally. You may be 100% correct in your recommendation for blockers but I don't think it is something I can do based on what I have been told by someone I have never met on the Internet. Especially when 4 therapists and a go have not suggested the same thing. Does that make sense? I grew up in an environment where taking any medication should be done with caution and only under medical supervision. I don't even take aspirin.

Also, if my therapists know I am transgender, why is it every time I ask them the question they tell me the don't know and cannot know, it is something that only I could know?

Therapist use different ways of handling people. I have found a psychologist to be better to deal with in this case because the mind can't be changed. A psychologist takes the view that "so you have a problem, tough, live with it". They don't try to fix the problem but instead help you move beyond it.

As for HRT, the therapist aren't going to give you HRT until you are ready for it. How will they know? You will ask for it. That was the way it worked for me and had I known, I would have ask sooner. In no way am I suggesting self medication because you need to get the correct balance and the only way to do that is with blood test to check your hormone levels.

Because of years of dealing with people who are transgender and because I know what it's like, I can often tell in a few lines of text in a single post if a person is transgender. The doctor may have an opinion but not a fact so they can't say they know. You might ask if the doctor feels it's possible you are transgender instead of asking for a hard diagnosis.

You will have to throw caution to the wind, pick a direction and go for it. Like in the past, if an approach isn't working, you have permission to change your mind and try something else.

Quote from: Dena on April 30, 2016, 10:27:58 PM
Therapist use different ways of handling people. I have found a psychologist to be better to deal with in this case because the mind can't be changed. A psychologist takes the view that "so you have a problem, tough, live with it". They don't try to fix the problem but instead help you move beyond it.

The therapists I have been seeing are psychologists. I have been using the word "therapist" because it is easier to spell. I thought therapist was just a generic term that includes psychologists, psychiatrist, couseler, etc. is that incorrect?

I use therapist for the same reason and because I am not sure what is available in the country where somebody is being treated. Therapist is generic and it really isn't important which one you are seeing as long as you get results. I have never see a counselor but I have see the other two. For me, the psychologist worked because we were no longer attempting to understand why I was the way I was. The only thing I got from a psychiatrist was HRT but it wasn't as effective as what's available today so I didn't learn anything from it.

Quote from: jayne01 on April 27, 2016, 04:39:16 PM
I am now convinced more than ever that there is no solution to my problems. Both my therapists agree that I have trouble identifying with emotions and have both heck me some homework to get more in touch with emotions. It has only been two days since my last therapist session and this emotion business is a total disaster.

All I feel is depression, anger, isolation, emptiness, sadness and a whole bunch of other negative stuff that I can't think of a name for. I have not felt worse about myself than I have these past two days. It totally sucks.

I came on to this forum to see if I have anything to offer and help other people to maybe make me feel better about myself. There were a few posts that I could relate to and thought I could add something but then thought better if it. The only thing I had to offer was my own depressing version of the story and that isn't going to help anybody. I have no way to relate to other people. So rather than making me feel better, I ended up feeling even worse.

I am more than likely going to delete my account.....again. It is not right for me to keep coming here and just continue taking and not offering anything back in return. You have all offered me lots o advice, but I just don't think I can start taking hormones. I don't have the right to affect other people's lives like that if I start taking HRT. I am only one person, and others are many. It is not fair for my actions to negatively impact so many others. I'm sorry I could not be more useful here at Susan's.

J

Hello:)
If I can help in anyway.. Please message:) thinking about you:)

Quote from: jayne01 on April 30, 2016, 09:09:58 PM
I cannot understand why nobody can come up with a diagnosis and tell me whether or not I am trans. A therapist can tell me I have depression and anxiety by observing me and seeing my symptoms. Why can't they diagnose whether or not I am trans the same way they diagnose depression and anxiety? It doesn't make any sense to me. What makes being trans any different to being depressed or anxious? They are all medical conditions of the brain. I don't understand why being trans is left up to the individual.

I fix planes for a living. If a pilot has an issue with the plane, they will give me a list of symptoms and I possibly run some additional tests and come up with a diagnosis and fix the problem. The pilot doesn't come up with the diagnosis, they just report the symptoms. Similarly, if I am feeling unwell, I go to the doctor and tell them my symptoms. They then come up with a diagnosis, possibly after running some tests, and then proceed to fix me.

So why is it that I go see a therapist, give them all my symptoms (dysphoria, etc), they ask me a bunch of questions, listen to me tell them all my woes and yet they still won't come up with a diagnosis. I am still expected to know for certain what ails me.

The pilot operates the plane and is an expert at doing that. But I am the expert at knowing how the plane is put together and how it all works. I am the one that operates my body and I know how to do that. But the medical professionals are the ones that know how the body is all put together and how it all works. Just like the pilot, I have a very limited knowledge of how the machine I operate functions, but I am no expert. So why do all the experts refuse to tell me what is wrong with this machine that is me?

It seems that a therapist/counselor/psychiatrist needs specific training in gender issues, as with sexuality or any other specialty. A good general therapist will at least tell you that this is outside their wheelhouse and perhaps offer to assist as you seek out a therapist who specializes in gender-related issues. I went through the whole depression/bi-polar/anxiety run-around for twelve years before I finally told someone "I think I'm a woman." In me doing that I basically showed up to a mechanic who works on Cessnas with an A380 and say "Fix it". Most symptoms can be tied to multiple things. Without a full picture, a general therapist is going to go with what is commonly seen.

Again, I've been through the depression/bi-polar rodeo with mood stabilizers and anti-psychotics that didn't work. You kind of need to be your own advocate with this. It can be difficult as most people wouldn't think this to be an option. My own mother would continually say "Guys can do that" for nearly everthing I felt would have been a great moment to say "You're right, guys don't do that. That's fine and here's why" and I could have solved this ten-twelve years ago. But no, all I got was "Your sad, take this". Basically my Cessna mechanics were telling me "You have a problem in your pistons" and to my knowledge....jet engines don't have pistons.

I am no therapist but it looks to me like you really want a professional to diagnose you as being trans so you can say it's not your fault.

It is not a disease, I am not a mistake but nor is it a choice but I AM trans. It is simply what I am but not who I am. I am female in mind and soul even if my body disagrees I am female.

I also really majorly dislike the taste of wasabi.

Random fact but relevant could any professional tell me I don't like that particular food unless I told them? I seriously doubt it. I have millions of other likes and dislikes which when added up anyone can make a good guess. Most likely the right guess but it remains a guess until I confirm it. Then it becomes a fact.

Very simplistic but only you can tell someone if you are trans or not. It is not a choice and you cannot be blamed.

It is just what you are but not who you are.

Once you know it is your choice though as to what to do with your life.

Jayne

A mental health professional will prefer for you to come to the conclusion yourself. That indicates a form of acceptance and means the patient has a better chance of moving through it.

Also saying some one is transgender is placing  a label on someone - for something which can not be medically rectified- at least not in the traditional medical way - ie to remove it and leave the person relatively unchanged.

I know how I felt for years - but the moment someone mentioned that I might be trans my first thoughts were of ending my life. Why? Not because how I felt but because of the way society rejects trans people.

Small steps.

Take care

The usual "diagnosis" you've heard from most here is pretty much along the lines of you are beyond the once or twice fantasizing/thoughts of "Is the grass greener on the other side?" you have GD. The hard part is where on the spectrum are you? This is where a for real gender therapist is good to have. Yes, there are plenty of cheerleaders who jump to there is only one solution, all in. Not always desired nor practical for everyone. Of course if you see only two options and one has a do-over, nothing wrong with giving all in a try. I hope never to be in that position. Most days I'm OK where I am

I always tend to make the distinction between a for real gender therapist, trans friendly, or plain ole generalist. A for real gender therapist actually has lots of TG clients across the entire spectrum from questioning to all in transitioning and beyond. They read plenty of books on it. Go to conferences. Read papers, etc..

A T-Friendly one has seen a few, no training, little to no reading up on it, no going to conferences etc.. Just plain is not hostile. (more on this a minute). And then there are the generalist. Those who barely know what the word means. Hopefully not hostile and is trainable by the client... Not a good situation.

A member of my group SO is working on becoming a therapist. Since she has a special interest in GD she started researching for schools with programs for that. Guess what? There ain't any. So much comes down who you train under/with in the field.

If they are a therapist or a psych. has no bearing on working with you on GD. All three classifications above apply One can prescribe meds and is needed in most cases for a final GCS permission slip. That's it.

When I was seeking out support while living in the boonies I used the Psychology Today doc finder as a guide. After about a dozen calls I soon learned the "Gender Issues" key word translates roughly into "I once had a class where it was mentioned". I learned from my support group there was no even partially experienced therapist in the area. One that was somewhat well trained by group members over the years, one so-so. Both friendlies compared to most others.

For me, local anything was a minimum of 90 miles away. Another 60+ drive was needed to hit DC or Pittsburgh to get to very qualified therapist. But hey... I wasn't transitioning. That was the last thing on my To-Do list after two utter fails in my 20's

Gender clinics need a critical mass of clients to be viable. Unless you are in or within striking distance of a big city with one, or more, your next best bet is a for real gender therapist. Again, critical mass applies there too. Just a lot less.

BTW - It is also possible for noted persons of letters, in a "Gender Clinic" situation to be hostile. As in GD is some sort of mental disorder they can fix. There is one notable clinic for that on the east coast.

Finding a qualified therapist usually entails first hand recommendations from support group members. You can also try a regional to state wide Trans advocacy group for guidance. Here in the US many PFLAG groups do a good transgender outreach sometimes extending to adults since the numbers are so low. It pays to check with them also if there is one near you

To recap. Diagnosing GD is EASY. The real work is WHERE on the very broad spectrum between Cis-Female and Cis-Male you can find peace. All-In is not for everyone just as deep denial or stuffing is not

If you were cis I don't see why you would be obsessed with finding out "for sure" if you're trans. It seems to me if you were cis it wouldn't cross your mind that you were trans.

Just to clarify, because I may not have been clear in my earlier posts. Of the 4 psychologists I have seen, 1 did not have any trans experience but was certainly trans friendly and did his best to educate himself in order to help me the best he could. I knew that from the start and it was more of a stop gap until my turn came upon the waiting list I was on to see the gender psychologist I am currently seeing. She has extensive experience and pretty much exclusively deals with trans people. She keeps herself up to date and is also a wonderful human being. She had referred me to another psychologist who was better trained at dealing with couples and she also deals exclusively with gender identity. She has a PhD on the subject, participated in various studies and written papers and books and definitely knows her stuff. She has subsequently referred me to the 4th therapist who is well versed with trans clients, but the reason I am seeing her is to help me deal with the shame, self loathing and other issues, which are related to my gender identity issues but need to be dealt as separate issue. I am still regularly seeing the 2nd and 4th therapists and they also have my concert to communicate with each other so that they can each better help me.

I have no doubt that I am lucky enough to be seeing the best therapists available and any problems I am having with acceptance is due to problems in my own mind and not due to the therapists treating me.

I hope that clears things up a bit.

Shame is something I'm also struggling with a lot. I'm as "straight" as they come, outgoing etc.. question is not if but when I out myself, people will be so shocked and I don't want to be seen as a "gay guy", I'm not. But at the same time I don't want to feel trapped for the rest of my life, I'm deeply unhappy and I keep falling into depressions with nobody to talk to, it sucks so much.

I've never been able to relate with guys in any way, never understood the macho behaviour, never been part of any of it, I don't present feminine in any way though.. I guess some people you can really tell they're feminine, not me. >_<

What I'm trying to say though, in life you got to take a leap of faith, you could stay unhappy for the rest of it or you could be who you are and be free at once. Living in a prison is NOT nice.

It sounds like you really want to be free but you're very afraid of consequences, you're not thinking about yourself.

Hi Jayne,
I've been reading your posts in this thread and I thought I'd get on here to see if it may help to hear from someone who's wife also went through exactly what you're describing.

I'm not trans, I'm a cis woman, but my wife is, and at the beginning of our transition, she sounded very much like you, in that she didn't want it to affect me negatively or for me to leave her, or for my family to hate me, etc. In fact, some of your earlier posts from this thread sound like she could have written them 6 years ago when we first discovered she was trans. Like you, she saw herself as a freak and thought she shouldn't have ever existed.
I'm here to let you know that yes, it will impact her life, but it doesn't mean you can't get through it as a couple, especially if she's willing to make an effort, and it sounds to me like she is. I never expected for my husband to become my wife, but when she first told me, I did my best to be supportive and help her as much as I could. She didn't even start HRT for a whole year after we first talked about it, she was too scared also. You can decide that on your own time. I don't even think she actually admitted to being trans until much later either. It actually started with clothing, and over time, we discovered who "she" was. What we did, was take baby steps in exploring this new side of her, and through each chapter, we did things together and talked a lot, about how she felt, and how I felt. This change is for both of you, and you are both entitled to speak honestly to each other about your feelings. To be honest, there were days when I didn't want to hear the word "trans" or "dysphoria" or "pass" but I didn't make her feel bad about it (well, sometimes I would, accidentally, and she would tell me), or tell her not to talk to me about it; I just talked to my own therapist or wrote in my journal and processed it in my own way. However, I can say that denying yourself the chance to explore your own identity will not help your relationship, you will only isolate yourself, and your wife too.

You mentioned wanting to be diagnosed by a professional, for someone to definitively tell you "yes, you're trans", but like your therapist said, it's something you have to come to on your own. After all, it's your gender identity, only you can say who you are, no one can tell you that. And if you don't know right now, it's ok. Talk to your wife about how you're feeling, and take the time to discover yourself. Nothing has to change overnight, it's a process. I know it can feel like life is not worth living when the pressure of having to make this big decision feels like the weight of the world. But, trust me, if your wife flew halfway around the world to be with you, she really loves you and surely does want you around. And look, even if she has a hard time and isn't as accepting as you'd like her to be, it doesn't mean you should try to bury it or make it go away, like others have said, you only have one life and you don't want to get to end of it have regrets.

Life is short, and it's not worth torturing yourself with what ifs forever.

When we finally decided to go on HRT, I was pregnant with our first child. We were broke and couldn't afford to bank any of her sperm. So, we said, "I guess we'll just have the one kid, and that's fine". We had no idea that our daughter would be born with a genetic disease and would die at 27 months old, after suffering her whole life in and out of intensive care. Do I ever think back, and say "man, what if we had banked the sperm?" "what if we could go back, then we would be able to have another child" Yes, I have thought of that. But we didn't and I'm not going to torture myself over it. All I can do now is appreciate the time I had with my daughter, remember those short precious moments with her and look forward. There are plenty of children who are abandoned by their parents every day, and I would be happy to adopt one eventually. It doesn't make it hurt less, but I try to look for the positive in that experience, and now I'm an advocate for the disease that claimed her life, something I could never do if she was never sick.

Something that has helped me immensely, for both the loss of my child and dealing with the transition, has been to practice meditation. I know it probably sounds hippy-ish, but it has really helped me accept who I am, as well as everything that has happened in my life. It's so easy to give into those dark thoughts and think that I don't deserve to be alive, but when you turn your attention inward, and focus on your breathing and you practice quieting your mind, it really can make a world of difference. I don't know if you've researched alternative medicine (meditation/yoga), but if you're suffering from anxiety and depression (both of which I have), it can help calm your mind. Are there any resources near you, where you could try a meditation class? If not, there are lots of resources online too.

I've written a wall of text, I'm sorry :/

I don't know you, but reading everything you posted, it really reminded me of my wife and her struggles, so I just wanted to say that it does get better. If you and your wife can commit to open communication and love each other no matter what, I think you will eventually find peace. Or at least I hope you do.

Hugs
Elhedril


PS: you're not alone

Hi Jayne. I remember feeling about myself like you are describing. Like you at the time, I thought there was only regular guy, or complete transition. OMG, I am trans. And....?  There are a great many cross dressers who never transition. They still have their jobs, their wives.... and some who transition still have their wives. Being transgender doesn't have to mean your entire life as you knew it suddenly disappears. It may alter some. Honestly, for me what has probably made the biggest difference of all is simply not fighting myself. It certainly didn't happen over night. I spent 30 years at war with myself. Self acceptance for me is still an ongoing project, and it may always be that. I can tell you though that my self acceptance is the most important thing for me, more than however I dress, or how feminine or masculine I am. 

Unfortunately the only person who can know that, is you. I wish I could tell, as I wish someone could have told me when I was younger. The problem with identity is that it's a very personal thing. It's about what you see yourself as. I guess you just... know? It's this feeling that something in you is a lie. It's wrong, a facade. When I started to confront my issues and finally came out of the closet, it felt like I finally removed a mask.

I'm glad that you aren't running away from this. It's a big decision.

Jayne01,

The uncertainty must feel devastating, and a definite diagnosis would be a huge relief.

I hesitate to state this will also be true where you live, but in my area the professional most likely to give a fast diagnosis might be a psychiatrist. At least in my vicinity therapists and counselors are expressly trained to not diagnose and thereby categorize clients, but to rather help the clients themselves assess and understand where they stand and thereby find a path forward.

In this sense a psychiatrist in a hospital setting may be closer to a mechanic in a repair shop. A medical establishment is geared to physically fix what the patient can't. The first step is to pinpoint the problem in order to select and initiate an appropriate procedure.

That said, for an accurate analysis even a psychiatrist will most likely require the patient to first claim probable sexual dysphoria. The consequences are significant enough that I doubt one would make the diagnosis, let alone e.g. suggest hormone replacement therapy without this input. On the other hand, familiar, explicit and obvious symptoms allow a psychiatrist to move relatively quickly.

The advantage of a skillful, non-judgmental counselor is that one can make clients feel enough at ease to admit, bring out to the open and accept things they may have been hiding and repressing. This facilitates medical diagnosis when the client then may go to a medical establishment to ask for further (physical) therapy.

Thank you all once again for your replies. I don't always reply because I often don't know what to say, but I do read all the replies, usually more than once. It all helps, so thank you.

Elhedril, thank you for your very detailed response. It was very helpful. I like to hear from partners of trans people because it helps me better understand what my wife has to go through due to my condition. If I understand better, then I hopefully can minimise her pain. I am very sorry to hear about your daughter. We don't have children, so I can only imagine how tough that must be on you.

Quote from: jayne01 on April 30, 2016, 09:09:58 PM
I cannot understand why nobody can come up with a diagnosis and tell me whether or not I am trans. A therapist can tell me I have depression and anxiety by observing me and seeing my symptoms. Why can't they diagnose whether or not I am trans the same way they diagnose depression and anxiety? It doesn't make any sense to me. What makes being trans any different to being depressed or anxious? They are all medical conditions of the brain. I don't understand why being trans is left up to the individual.

I fix planes for a living. If a pilot has an issue with the plane, they will give me a list of symptoms and I possibly run some additional tests and come up with a diagnosis and fix the problem. The pilot doesn't come up with the diagnosis, they just report the symptoms. Similarly, if I am feeling unwell, I go to the doctor and tell them my symptoms. They then come up with a diagnosis, possibly after running some tests, and then proceed to fix me.

So why is it that I go see a therapist, give them all my symptoms (dysphoria, etc), they ask me a bunch of questions, listen to me tell them all my woes and yet they still won't come up with a diagnosis. I am still expected to know for certain what ails me.

The pilot operates the plane and is an expert at doing that. But I am the expert at knowing how the plane is put together and how it all works. I am the one that operates my body and I know how to do that. But the medical professionals are the ones that know how the body is all put together and how it all works. Just like the pilot, I have a very limited knowledge of how the machine I operate functions, but I am no expert. So why do all the experts refuse to tell me what is wrong with this machine that is me?

Quote from: Dena on April 30, 2016, 09:31:26 PM
Unfortunately I have seen this before on the site. People will come to the site, explore and then leave the site for months to years until they finally reach the point that the discomfort can no longer be tolerated. They then return and regret the time they wasted.

Dena different site but yes that would be me. I realized a bit north of 40 - so 20 years ago - that I am trans and after 4 years of working on it decided not to pursue transitioning, to continue living my private life as femme as I felt and presenting male professionally etc. I don't regret that time or consider it wasted, during that period I took on two new professions and entered an entirely new branch of technology and research.

OP, what I knew then and still do is if I could see an endpoint where I would pass as female and be reasonably pretty I'd have started the process in a heartbeat. It didn't help that as part of learning to pass as male I'd spent a lifetime pursuing hyper-masculine activities -- a fairly common trait for trans women of my era.

My decision hasn't changed completely, I'm on HRT very much as an experiment with the possibility of moving on to surgical transition. I have no intention of passing as female on a daily basis as my other desires haven't changed and so far I'm 100% happily engaged in working 60+ hours per week and have no desire to take the time that would be involved in passing full time.

At present I'm moving toward a very gradual 'external' transition, allowing myself to gradually dress more femininely, adopting a hairstyle that will soften my features etc. Even though I now have insurance that will cover the entire cost of transition, E.g. electrolysis ffs etc I just don't value those changes enough to devote the time.

As for diagnosis, I would be your polar opposite, I've been self-diagnosing for many decades, sometimes to the annoyance of my doctors (I've rarely been wrong).

To be sure and clear, my decisions are compromise and not always ones I'm happy with. To reiterate, if I were someone who easily passed for female I'd have moved through the process to GRS long since, otoh I recognize that that's a bit shallow and it's probably best that that's not really an option. I also know full well that the path isn't easy for those who pass more easily as female.

My depression had plenty of other roots than dysphoria and those things also needed work and will always need attention. That said I seem to be among those better served by HRT than by antidepressants.

The things you are facing aren't well addressed by logic or analysis and I encourage you to get better at sitting with discomforts, accepting them and only then working on solutions. Every day I go about my life knowing I'm a survivor of abuse, that I don't fit very well in my body and that I still depend on it and value the things it does give me.

If I look at all these things at once they are a very large elephant indeed (perhaps Gordian knot would be the better analogy) and that the solutions to being happier happen a bite at a time. In my therapy we try to address one thing at a time and trust that the progress happens. What I have that you don't as yet is 20 years of progress that has taught me to trust my own process.

Jayne, your condition is called human. That is your diagnosis, you are suffering from human being syndrome. Being transgender has many challenges. It does not have to be a suffering life though. Maybe one day you will come to a realization you are TS, but not everyone who is transgender is, or goes through a full transition. Many of us, myself included sit somewhere on the fence, maybe leaning in the direction of female, or just occasionally hop over for a little while then hop back.

My wife is aware of it. I came out to her in late 2012. Hasn't always been fun or easy, and we have made our arrangements. I do not dress in her presence, but she gives me lots of time to dress. I am by nature a feminine person. I am just myself in her presence. To her I am her husband, and I am fine with that. Sometimes she does struggle with the idea of a transgender husband. There are times she has struggled with my femininity.  There are times when she has even enjoyed some of it, just not the physical presentation.

Hopefully in time you will not see yourself with some horrible dreadful condition that is only suffering and pain.

I keep reading and being told that being transgender is a medical condition and I believe that. Well, I have been believing that. I am now beginning to doubt that because I doubt myself.

I cannot find any medical professional that can tell me whether or not I am trans. So how do you know that being trans is medical and biological in the first place if there is no way test for it? If I am the only one who knows if I am trans because that is was my brain tells me, doesn't that make it a state of mind? I don't want to upset anyone, I am just really confused about all this. I cannot make any sense of it.

If I have a medical condition, why can't a doctor test for this condition and then give me options on available treatments? None of this makes any sense.

Does it really matter what it is? The point is you know what you want and you're currently unhappy about it. If you're somehow wired to be a female in a male body with no influences that could've caused this, then I have no doubt this is a medical thing.

Quote from: tsroxy on May 02, 2016, 11:24:57 PM
Does it really matter what it is? The point is you know what you want and you're currently unhappy about it. If you're somehow wired to be a female in a male body with no influences that could've caused this, then I have no doubt this is a medical thing.

It shouldn't matter what it is. But how can I takes steps to fix something if I don't know what I am trying to fix? By "fix" I mean taking whatever steps necessary to remove or reduce the symptoms causing distress.

When I fix planes, if there is a problem with the entertainment system, I don't go and replace an engine. I first find out what the problem is, then I proceed with the correct remedy for the problem at hand. I can't commencing to fix something before knowing what it is that I am trying to fix. That kind of logic may not make sense to many people, but that is how my brain works, apparently to my own detriment.

I may be mistaken but I believe the idea that one can see the difference  between a male brain and female brain has not been conclusively proven. Most of the physical characteristics of human brains will not show much of difference. The theory of it being a medical condition is a result of something that happened in the womb. It is not something that can be seen or measured (yet).

This site accepts a number of "conditions" as under the trans umbrella. Cross Dressers, gender fluid, non binary, intersex.... The following is not meant to exclude others. It is simply one of the most comprehensive descriptions of official diagnosis of gender dysphoria(which is more of binary concept in this instance) used in the medical community . Diagnosis is based around this standard in the US:

Quote
By Dr Ananya Mandal, MD

Gender dysphoria is a condition where then person identifies himself or herself with the opposite of their original biological sex. This is not a mental disorder. However, some people may need therapy.

Diagnosis of gender dysphoria is thus important to rule out other concurrent or underlying mental disorders like anxiety, depression etc. (1)
A multidisciplinary team is required for diagnosis

Assessment of persons with gender dysphoria and diagnosis of the condition is a multidisciplinary action.

A detailed psychiatric history, psychosexual development and behavior history, neuropsychological testing and behavioral analysis may be needed.

The team may comprise of:

    Psychiatrists
    Psychologists
    Neurologists
    Endocrinologists (who specialize in hormonal functions)
    Urologists (who specialize in the urinary tract and its abnormalities)
    Behavioral and occupation therapists
    Counsellors etc.

Gender dysphoria must be separated from homosexuality. Not all persons with gender dysphoria are homosexual. (1, 2)
Two phase diagnosis

Diagnosis may be a challenge since results of psychological testing may not be conclusive.

The International Harry Benjamin Gender Dysphoria Association lays down guidelines for a two phase diagnosis. (1)

    Phase I – Diagnosis is based on the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual for Mental Disorders IV (Text Revision) or DSM – IV TR.
    Phase II – Here the patient is assessed if he or she can live in the desired sex role permanently. This involves family information and counselling and name change. Hormonal therapy, gender re-assignation surgery and psychotherapy is administered as needed.

Ruling out other diagnosis

Differential diagnosis or other diagnosis that need to be ruled out during assessment of a suspected person with gender dysphoria include (1):–

    Nonconformity to stereotypical sex role behaviors
    Transvestic fetishism – The person may have a sexual fetish with cross dressing
    Concurrent congenital intersex condition – The person may have ambiguous genitalia
    Schizophrenia

Criteria for gender dysphoria diagnosis according to DSM V guidelines

The criteria for diagnosis according to the latest DSM V proposed guidelines is broken down into in children and in adolescents and adults. (3, 4):
DSM V diagnosis in children

In children –

  1  A definite difference between experienced/expressed gender and the one assigned at birth of at least 6 months duration. At least six of the following must be present:
       1 Persistent and strong desire to be of the other sex or insistence that they belong to the other sex
       2 In males a strong preference for cross-dressing and in female children a strong preference for wearing typical masculine clothing and dislike or refusal to wear typical feminine clothing
        3 Fantasising about playing opposite gender roles in make-belief play or activities
       4 Preference for toys, games, or activities typical of the opposite sex.
     5   Rejection of toys, games and activities conforming to one's own sex. In boys avoidance of rough-and-tumble play and in girls rejection of typically feminine toys and activities
     6   Preference for playmates of the other sex
     7   Dislike for sexual anatomy. Boys may hate their penis and testes and girls dislike urinating sitting.
       8 Desire to acquire the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics of the opposite sex.
  2  The gender dysphoria leads to clinically significant distress and/or social, occupational and other functioning impairment. There may be an increased risk of suffering distress or disability.

    The subtypes may be ones with or without defects or defects in sexual development.

DSM V diagnosis in adults and adolescents

In adults and adolescents –

   1 A definite mismatch between the assigned gender and experienced/expressed gender for at least 6 months duration as characterized by at least two or more of the following features –
      1  Mismatch between experienced or expressed gender and gender manifested by primary and/or secondary sex characteristics at puberty
      2  Persistent desire to rid oneself of the primary or secondary sexual characteristics of the biological sex at puberty.
      3 Strong desire to possess the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics of the other gender
      4  Desire to belong to the other gender
      5  Desire to be treated as the other gender
      6  Strong feeling or conviction that he or she is reacting or feeling in accordance with the identified gender.
    2 The gender dysphoria leads to clinically significant distress and/or social, occupational and other functioning impairment. There may be an increased risk of suffering distress or disability.

    The subtypes may be ones with or without defects or defects in sexual development.

Edited by April Cashin-Garbutt, BA Hons (Cantab)

So, while not measurable physical markers there is a particular criteria. However, most of it is based on your personal experiences, feelings and preferences.

Interestingly enough, even vehicles with stated expected miles per gallon(that are supposed to be able to prove this information) vary from vehicle to vehicle.

With warmth,

Joanna

But you're not an airplane, our atonomy and especially our brain is way more complicate than that.
You're looking for someone to confirm what you already know, someone to pull the trigger for you.
The only one that knows you, is you. You need to fix yourself, no one is going to tell you you need to
transition. They can only help you understand your feelings so you can proper diagnose and do what's necessary
to be happy with yourself, it's never going to be easy.

Hi Joanna,

Thanks for the link. The way I read it, it is all guidelines for an official diagnosis by a professional. That is not my experience. Everybody, both on this forum and all the psychologists I see tell me that I need to diagnose myself. I am not a trained mental health professional. I don't have the qualifications to make any kind of diagnosis. I don't expect a flight attendant to be able to diagnose a mechanical problem with an aircraft. They can identify symptoms, and possibly even make a reasonably accurate guess at diagnosing a problem, but it is not their area of expertise. Mental health is not my area of expertise. I can identify a whole bunch of symptoms, and maybe even make a good guess at what is up with me, but I am no expert.

Even if there would be someone qualified to say "oh yup, you definitely need to transition", they wouldn't make that call.
It's a life changing procedure.. it's always going to be in your hands hun. You need to find a way to deal with this, always think
about yourself though, you deserve to be happy like anyone else.

You are correct. Even if you were a medical professional you should still have an objective perspective from another.

I have to admit that I don't remember precisely where you are. Criteria changes from state to state and country to country.

Many places, including the state I am in, requires a qualified mental health professional to evaluate one before hormones or surgery. While most will admit that the patient may have more information to diagnose themselves(living in that brain and body-we know how we feel about that body and preferences), it still takes a letter from a professional. It generally says the patient is in their care for X amount of time and the patient matches the minimum criteria for a diagnosis of gender dysphoria.

No need for you to have the expertise. You just need to tell them that "the ride is funny and it makes this sound..."  ;)

I know it's easy to say don't over think it, then you are up all night thinking that (or something else) but you know what, even that is a symptom...  and I'm up too.

Warmly,

Joanna

I'm not asking anybody to tell me whether or not to transition. I just need to know if I am transgender or not. Then I can make an informed decision about what to do.

Joanna, I am in Sydney, Australia. I thought by me continually telling my therapist what my symptoms are (ie. "The ride is funny and makes this sound...") then they could say, yes based on everything you have told me and what I have observed, you are trans, or no, u don't think you are trans, I think you have xyz and here are the various options available to you to treat xyz, or abc or trans or whatever. I think I have missed something along the way in my understanding.

Hey I many ppl are sharinh many things. I Donno if I can help you or no, but I'll tell what happened to me

I was not sure about me and was not ready to accept who I'm, when I had dysphoria episodes I made fake promises to me, then I got indulged in college and all and didn't think too much until next episode, but last year episodes were very often and hindered my studies, so I decided to act..I know one thing I'm not sure about my body I just hate it,I wanted to be fair and girl (which I'm not sure,is attainable for me), and didn't want to end up being nothing, but it's my male characters I'm not happy with.
So I wud be some where in gender spectrum other then male.
That gave me confidence and I started to work on my self,I brought clothes to wear when I'm free,and that made me feel better than before. Everyone doubts themselves, but don't think under pressure, just think what wud you do if no1 judged you or if everyone likes you no matter what, and that helped me.
I went to therapist and I got t-blockers last week, I'm kinda anxious, but I like it.

And wud you keep on asking this question again and again till you feel bad that you didn't act earlier?? Just give time to yourself do small things (I tried dresses, make up).. You will find what makes you feel better

Sent from my Moto G using Tapatalk

Quote from: jayne01 on May 03, 2016, 01:40:00 AM
Joanna, I am in Sydney, Australia. I thought by me continually telling my therapist what my symptoms are (ie. "The ride is funny and makes this sound...") then they could say, yes based on everything you have told me and what I have observed, you are trans, or no, u don't think you are trans, I think you have xyz and here are the various options available to you to treat xyz, or abc or trans or whatever. I think I have missed something along the way in my understanding.

Is this a gender therapist or more general? I am guessing you have come out and asked them and then they turn it around to what do you think, diagnose yourself? Have you  brought up to them the arguments you are using here(how should you as a person who is not trained in mental health... what if your thoughts/feelings are false...

Maybe you need to ask them point blank what their professional opinion is and why?

I think we have given you lots of different ways of approaching this. It is not surprising if you are worried and scared. It is daunting to say the least. I hope some of the suggestions and arguments come in to play and help you. If you want to wait, that's okay but, I don't think you will find it goes away. I was not really sure what it was wrong with me for years. However, the symptoms have never left me alone for a year(would duck out of sight for a while sometimes).

Good luck. I have to go get some sleep.

Sincerely,

Joanna

 Have you asked your therapist this question?  "Am I trans, or something else?"  Surely they must have an opinion one way or the other.


Sapere Aude

Jayne,

I am pretty new to all of this, however I have been reading everything that has been posted. Please bare with me if I forgot anything. From what I understand, is you can't fully comprehend your emotions which is a problem in of itself coupled with need to be sure about what you "are." I am very new to the community here as being that I have shared a bit of my story (See Introductions) but on top of just recently dropping the T-bomb on my Girlfriend of 2 years I can understand how unnerving it can be. When I told her that I wanted to start looking to change she was kind of put off by it, but then I gave her a ultimatum. Not only did I give her one, it was the same one I had given myself.

Have you ever heard of Schrodinger's Cat? Schrodinger was a scientist of sorts, who wanted to reflect how to determine something without doing anything to actually determine it. Which didn't make much since to his peers, but he did his experiment anyways. For his experiment Schrodinger took his feline companion and placed it inside a wooden box and sealed it. No windows, no air holes, nor food or water. Just a cat in a box, and left it in his lab for a week without even giving it a second though. The next week he took the box and placed it on the table and asked his peers if the cat was alive or dead. Of course his peers laughed and claimed it was dead, but here is the kicker. As scientists they can only base judgement about the cat based on what they can only observe, the could only look at the box and were expected to give a highly educated guess about the cat being alive or dead.

Stumped with this, the cat being alive or dead was inconclusive based on what observe. Now we get to why I think this is relative to you, because you are the box. The cat inside is your mental gender if you will, With out knowing if the cat is alive (male) or dead (female) and have no choice but to ultimately open the box and really see what is inside of it. You could go about it a few ways like doing low doses of HRT or eating foods that help your body produce estrogen, to talking with your wife about what is going on with you, or lastly really self evaluating yourself. The only other option is to just leave the box alone and try not to think about it (Bury it) which will only make you want to open the box even more later on.

Just some food for thought.

-James

Quote from: The Saint on May 03, 2016, 03:29:06 AM
Jayne,

I am pretty new to all of this, however I have been reading everything that has been posted. Please bare with me if I forgot anything. From what I understand, is you can't fully comprehend your emotions which is a problem in of itself coupled with need to be sure about what you "are." I am very new to the community here as being that I have shared a bit of my story (See Introductions) but on top of just recently dropping the T-bomb on my Girlfriend of 2 years I can understand how unnerving it can be. When I told her that I wanted to start looking to change she was kind of put off by it, but then I gave her a ultimatum. Not only did I give her one, it was the same one I had given myself.

Have you ever heard of Schrodinger's Cat? Schrodinger was a scientist of sorts, who wanted to reflect how to determine something without doing anything to actually determine it. Which didn't make much since to his peers, but he did his experiment anyways. For his experiment Schrodinger took his feline companion and placed it inside a wooden box and sealed it. No windows, no air holes, nor food or water. Just a cat in a box, and left it in his lab for a week without even giving it a second though. The next week he took the box and placed it on the table and asked his peers if the cat was alive or dead. Of course his peers laughed and claimed it was dead, but here is the kicker. As scientists they can only base judgement about the cat based on what they can only observe, the could only look at the box and were expected to give a highly educated guess about the cat being alive or dead.

Stumped with this, the cat being alive or dead was inconclusive based on what observe. Now we get to why I think this is relative to you, because you are the box. The cat inside is your mental gender if you will, With out knowing if the cat is alive (male) or dead (female) and have no choice but to ultimately open the box and really see what is inside of it. You could go about it a few ways like doing low doses of HRT or eating foods that help your body produce estrogen, to talking with your wife about what is going on with you, or lastly really self evaluating yourself. The only other option is to just leave the box alone and try not to think about it (Bury it) which will only make you want to open the box even more later on.

Just some food for thought.

-James

Lovely reply I Donno what to tell, but awesomeness

Sent from my Moto G using Tapatalk

I like your box analogy as it mirrors what I went through.  I was pretty sure I was trans but not 100% certain because the box remained closed.  What helped me was to examine alternative explanations.  The only two I could come up with was that I was either really trans or if not I was bat ->-bleeped-<- crazy!!!!  When I finally did go to a therapist my feeling was that if I could definitively rule out the second explanation it would confirm the first.  Well, I'm not crazy so therefore I am trans.


Sapere Aude

I think the reason why no one really wants to give you a specific "diagnosis" of being transgender, is because it is not a thing. It is not a medical condition. It is not a mental illness. I am brand new to this forum, but not entirely new to my own acceptance of myself as transgender. I am newer than a lot of people on this and other forums (3&1/2 years) since I accepted myself as transgender. I would have said no to the question are you trans 4 years ago. I really made myself believe I wasn't, so in a way, I wouldn't have been lying. Not to them anyway. To myself, lying, denial perhaps.

Over the 3&1/2 years, I have learned just how diverse transgender really is. The reason is because transgender is a state of being. The only thing transgender people really have in common is something which takes us to the opposite gender from our biological gender. That something, can be anything that takes us there. It can be always, half the time, just very occasionally. It could be actions like dressing, or behaviors that are mostly associated with the opposite gender. It could be nothing more than a state of identity. You have to cross dress to be a cross dresser. But you do not have to cross dress to be transgender. You don't have to DO anything. You can live your life 100% as your biological gender. That is a choice some transgender people make. (not many)

I think lately, the media has got the term transgender to become something that people are starting to associate with those who will completely live as the opposite of their birth gender. (think Caitlyn Jenner) and the entire world has seen her now live completely different than when she was Bruce Jenner. There have been a few others. Kristen Beck, a member of seal team 6 who now lives as a woman. So that is how people are thinking of transgender. They changed everything, and some transgender people do, but not all of us do.

Being transgender is not about a diagnosis, it is about acceptance of yourself. What if anything you do about it is entirely up to you. Bigger than anything that I "do" like dressing, or doing my nails, shaving my legs, is just letting my mind be free to be transgender. Just being able to sit here and type I am feminine and be at peace with that. That is bigger for me than anything else.

Quote from: Deborah on May 03, 2016, 03:00:08 AM
Have you asked your therapist this question?  "Am I trans, or something else?"  Surely they must have an opinion one way or the other.


Sapere Aude

Yes I have. Several times. I have worded the question different ways also. Each time the answer is that they don't know and cannot know, only I can answer that question.

This is coming from 3 very well respected therapists, 2 of which deal exclusively with gender identity.

Maybe I have had the wrong expectation from psychologists. It seems that they don't tell you anything. They just listen and supposedly guide you into answering your own questions. That doesn't help when the answers to the questions don't exist.

Quote from: The Saint on May 03, 2016, 03:29:06 AM
Jayne,

I am pretty new to all of this, however I have been reading everything that has been posted. Please bare with me if I forgot anything. From what I understand, is you can't fully comprehend your emotions which is a problem in of itself coupled with need to be sure about what you "are." I am very new to the community here as being that I have shared a bit of my story (See Introductions) but on top of just recently dropping the T-bomb on my Girlfriend of 2 years I can understand how unnerving it can be. When I told her that I wanted to start looking to change she was kind of put off by it, but then I gave her a ultimatum. Not only did I give her one, it was the same one I had given myself.

Have you ever heard of Schrodinger's Cat? Schrodinger was a scientist of sorts, who wanted to reflect how to determine something without doing anything to actually determine it. Which didn't make much since to his peers, but he did his experiment anyways. For his experiment Schrodinger took his feline companion and placed it inside a wooden box and sealed it. No windows, no air holes, nor food or water. Just a cat in a box, and left it in his lab for a week without even giving it a second though. The next week he took the box and placed it on the table and asked his peers if the cat was alive or dead. Of course his peers laughed and claimed it was dead, but here is the kicker. As scientists they can only base judgement about the cat based on what they can only observe, the could only look at the box and were expected to give a highly educated guess about the cat being alive or dead.

Stumped with this, the cat being alive or dead was inconclusive based on what observe. Now we get to why I think this is relative to you, because you are the box. The cat inside is your mental gender if you will, With out knowing if the cat is alive (male) or dead (female) and have no choice but to ultimately open the box and really see what is inside of it. You could go about it a few ways like doing low doses of HRT or eating foods that help your body produce estrogen, to talking with your wife about what is going on with you, or lastly really self evaluating yourself. The only other option is to just leave the box alone and try not to think about it (Bury it) which will only make you want to open the box even more later on.

Just some food for thought.

-James

Hi James,

Thanks for your post. I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean about the cat in the box. There are so many variables, how could you know if the cat is alive or dead. There is not enough information to make that determination. You could only make a best guess. How big is the box? How much body fat and how healthy is the cat? Is the box completely airtight or can air seep in through the material the box is made from? How much humidity is in the air? What is the temperature? Did the cat just slip into a coma? I'm not sure how to relate your analogy to being trans. Sorry, I don't understand....

Quote from: Gendermutt on May 03, 2016, 10:54:43 AM
I think the reason why no one really wants to give you a specific "diagnosis" of being transgender, is because it is not a thing. It is not a medical condition. It is not a mental illness.

I agree with you that being transgender is not a mental illness, but you say it is not a medical condition? Everything I have read and documentaries I have watched suggest that it is a medical condition. It is caused by something that happens before being born where you get a mismatch in the timing and type of hormones so that your brain and body gender are not aligned. Correct me if I am wrong, but that is how I understand it which would make it a medical condition, or biological condition if you don't like the word "medical".

Jayne,

A more 'feminine' brain in a male body or vise versa is certainly a cause but it's not the only one and more to the point it's not one there is any test for. I think that's the case with me but I could not tell you for certain whether I was more feminine brained when I was young or if the substantial abuse by my family influenced me in that direction.

I do know I'm more comfortable femme than not, I also learned a LOT of very masculine behaviors in order to survive. I'm also very comfortable participating in my own treatment and diagnosis.

Ok you're a mechanic / technician and maybe you're not all that sophisticated in your thinking but try to look at it this way.

Obviously physics could explain chemistry and certainly quantum chemistry is being used to better understand chemistry and bio-chemistry, however to date it's incredibly expensive and limited in application. Chemistry as a field is understood and practiced without general reference to physics / quantum mechanics (same thing for electronics btw).

Chemistry could explain biology - same thing, there is no indication that we will anytime soon or ever be able to fully reduce biology to chemistry or physics. Genetics, population genetics etc etc etc obey rules that certainly obey the rules of physics, however we again speak in terms of the rules of biology.

Medicine does not reduce to bio and within medicine diagnosis is the hardest part - in fact most physicians aren't very good at diagnosis and it's not hard to demonstrate that there are expert-based software systems that can diagnose better than 95% of doctors. I've been mis-diagnosed often enough to have experienced this personally and when I do have a medical condition I tend to educate myself on the details to be sure I get the best care possible.

Psychology / psychiatry are even less exact sciences. The therapist is entirely relying on you for their information and you can never be fully objective about what's going on in your head. In my experience the best shrinks are pretty good about telling when a client is not being truthful or not truthful with themselves (and hence unable to be fully truthful to others). Even the conditions that are more decidedly biochemical such as depression are not always addressable by drug treatments and the side effects can be brutal (I have more experience than I care to remember with anti-depressants).

You've heard your own therapists and quite a few people here trying the help you in this all say variations on the same theme. I'm now going to say please accept that, stop whinging and accept that the path is rarely as cut and dried as you want it to be. For most of us it's a process of many years or decades and takes lots of work. Suppose you decide to transition, passing requires learning to change posture, your vocal patterns, mannerisms and fundamentally how you relate to others. It's not just about going on hormones and getting surgery.

A true medical or biological condition would be intersex. Intersex people have true biological gender abnormality. incomplete male or female genitialia. sometimes having both. May outwardly have all the typical features of one gender, but the the genitalia of the other. There are certain medical conditions which may cause a person to have these issues. Klinefelter syndrome often attributes to an intersex condition. People with Kinefelter syndrome often never hit puberty. Have un-descended testicles. extremely small genitialia. A much higher pitched voice than a typical male will have. Often will have some gynocomastia. (male breasts.) These would be medical conditions, which also may cause some people to experience  being transgender, but not always.

Dysphoria, which you say you suffer from, is often because the brain tells us one thing, while our bodies are the opposite. Transgender people often will have nothing about their body in a biological sense that has anything wrong with it, apart from any normal medical condition. Their hormone levels will be in the typical range, males will hit puberty at a typical age. All of the usual changes resulting in puberty will take place. It is those changes which often make the dysphoria very difficult, along with the expectations of society, the identity others see us as. Our genitalia which we may feel is alien to us. Many who are TS have said to have felt that their genitalia is simply wrong, and they hate it, along with all of the rest of their characteristics.

There is very little which can be found even in autopsies which will indicate anything about a person that would show being transgender. There is no blood test, or any other physical test which will show a transgender condition. I  would agree and will assume most who are transgender will agree that something does occur in pre birth. Transgender does not discriminate based on race or geography. There is nothing in the water which causes it. Nothing which has ever been found to make or more or less likely during pregnancy. There are no predictors to being transgender.

What that something really is???  Some sort of wiring that causes transgender people to identify or relate to the opposite biological sex. It has in the past been considered a mental illness. Transvetic fetishism, or transexualism. Now thankfully the DSM has removed transgender and sub terms from it being considered a mental illness. Transgender people sometimes suffer from depression or other mental illness as a result of the difficulties of being transgender. 

There are crossdressers who occasionally dress, never in anyway feel they are women, or men for FTM. They always internally identify as male, even when dressed. some do not consider themselves to be transgender, and who is anyone to argue that? It really is a personal thing, and it isn't a diagnosis, it is just an acceptance of who you are.

Quote from: Gendermutt on May 03, 2016, 01:48:33 PM
Nothing which has ever been found to make or more or less likely during pregnancy. There are no predictors to being transgender.

Actually it has been found.  Exogenous hormones taken in by a pregnant mother disrupts the development of the child in utero and causes a variety of problems including this one.

Quote from: The Saint on May 03, 2016, 03:29:06 AM

Have you ever heard of Schrodinger's Cat? Schrodinger was a scientist of sorts, who wanted to reflect how to determine something without doing anything to actually determine it. Which didn't make much since to his peers, but he did his experiment anyways. For his experiment Schrodinger took his feline companion and placed it inside a wooden box and sealed it. No windows, no air holes, nor food or water. Just a cat in a box, and left it in his lab for a week without even giving it a second though. The next week he took the box and placed it on the table and asked his peers if the cat was alive or dead. Of course his peers laughed and claimed it was dead, but here is the kicker. As scientists they can only base judgement about the cat based on what they can only observe, the could only look at the box and were expected to give a highly educated guess about the cat being alive or dead.

I don't mean to derail the thread.  I just want to point out that Schrodinger's Cat was just a thought experiment.  It's not something that was ever done to a real cat.  No cats were harmed in the course of this experiment in quantum physics . . .

for further information:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schrödinger%27s_cat

Jayne01, look at the change of Sona Avedian. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6HaVYg6kB4

What was feminine about the before pic? Nothing.

Don't feel like you should force anything. Just relax and let it come to you. And when the time comes, and you're ready, you can enjoy it.

Until then, don't worry about the am I or arent I. It sounds cheesy but let your heart do the talking. Not the hard logic that wants an empirical answer now. That won't get you anywhere besides more anxiety. Remember, anxiety works in cycles and feeds of itself.   

Quote from: JMJW on May 03, 2016, 02:50:24 PM

Don't feel like you should force anything. Just relax and let it come to you. And when the time comes, and you're ready, you can enjoy it.

Until then, don't worry about the am I or arent I. It sounds cheesy but let your heart do the talking. Not the hard logic that wants an empirical answer now. That won't get you anywhere besides more anxiety. Remember, anxiety works in cycles and feeds of itself.   

Relax and let it come to me? I am almost 44 years old. It hasn't come to me yet. Am I supposed to just sit around and watch my life go by hoping that something will just come to me?

If I am trans, I have zero chance of ever passing as female, do society will always see me as some type of freak. I have seen plenty of the before and after pictures on here and no amount of hormones will turn me into a girl. I have an enormous head, even by make standards. That alone will be an instant giveaway. As I said at the beginning, I cannot see how there is any solution to this. I was simply never meant to be. One day my life will run out and the world will keep on spinning like I was never here.

 Chilling out isn't the same as doing nothing. It's quieting down your mind so you can hear your true self better. What you've been doing so far hasn't been working. Trying to force the issue hasn't gotten it closer to being answered. 

About passing,you can't look at your face now and say there's no chance because only those with exceptional genetics can pass at 44 sans surgery in all honesty.  The thing about not passing is that it tells people that yes trans people exist - get used to it -  rather than blending in and being non challenging. Many trans activists have seen that as a positive thing. 

You could still have a consultation at some point with a good facial feminization surgeon to see what can be done. But you have to get past this psychological gridlock and decide to take action first.

Quote from: itsApril on May 03, 2016, 02:24:49 PM
I don't mean to derail the thread.  I just want to point out that Schrodinger's Cat was just a thought experiment.  It's not something that was ever done to a real cat.  No cats were harmed in the course of this experiment in quantum physics . . .

April,
Thanks. We mind melded on that one.

Joanna

Quote from: jayne01 on May 04, 2016, 01:04:02 AM
Relax and let it come to me? I am almost 44 years old. It hasn't come to me yet.

At 44, I still hadn't fully accepted I was trans, even though I'd already tried (and failed) to transition years earlier.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 04, 2016, 01:04:02 AM
If I am trans, I have zero chance of ever passing as female...

Not all trans people need to transition and/or present publicly, so the passing issue is often a moot point.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 04, 2016, 01:04:02 AM
As I said at the beginning, I cannot see how there is any solution to this.

This is just my humble opinion and I do not mean to offend, but from reading your previous posts, you seem to be going around in circles. Personally, I don't think you're ready to accept who you are yet. Acceptance needs to come from the inside, not from the findings of a therapist.

I think you'll finally be able to fully accept yourself as trans when the pain from the dysphoria gets to the point where it's totally unbearable, at which point you'll be forced to take meaningful steps to reduce that pain. Most likely, this will involve trialling low dose HRT. It's then that you'll begin to find the solution you're searching for.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 04, 2016, 01:04:02 AM
Relax and let it come to me? I am almost 44 years old. It hasn't come to me yet. Am I supposed to just sit around and watch my life go by hoping that something will just come to me?

If I am trans, I have zero chance of ever passing as female, do society will always see me as some type of freak. I have seen plenty of the before and after pictures on here and no amount of hormones will turn me into a girl. I have an enormous head, even by make standards. That alone will be an instant giveaway. As I said at the beginning, I cannot see how there is any solution to this. I was simply never meant to be. One day my life will run out and the world will keep on spinning like I was never here.

Yeah exactly. I was in fact 44 when I'd made enough progress in therapy to feel OK with myself as trans and decided I wouldn't then proceed with transition and simply live my life being femme in private, publicly presenting as male and also out about orientation where it felt appropriate. Getting to that point involved getting quiet enough inside to feel comfortable in making my decision -- not being thrown by every passing emotion.

My decision was certainly influenced by some practical considerations. I didn't have health coverage, finances were pretty tight and lime you I felt passing would be difficult ** not impossible ** I know how to make myself passably femme in spite of being 6', 220 lbs and quite muscular. I also decided the time involved in passing for female is more than I could commit.

Today part of my decision to start HRT and reconsider full transition is that my surgery etc would be fully covered by insurance. I still don't think I'm going to proceed to GRS, however I've told the world I'm transitioning and that my endpoint is probably gender-fluid.

It took another 16 years to get to that point, so what? I don't regret the time, the difference is only that I'll be expressing gender fluid generally rather than only among a small circle.

How can you live life not knowing what you are? It is torture for me. I always feel like I am an outsider, an observer. I'm in a glass bubble watching other people live their lives but I'm not included because I'm not real or something like that. I keep waiting to one day wake up and be told that I was part of some cosmic science project. I don't even know where to go for help. This website is great, but is very anonymous. It is just words on a screen. I know you are all real people that are trying to help, but I have never met any of you and you don't know me just like I don't know any of you.

My therapists seem unable to help me, not from lack of trying either. They are trying very hard, but so far nothing is working. I sent them an email earlier today telling them how angry I am at them for not telling me what is wrong with me and not wanting to help me. Who does that to the very people who are trying to help? It all just makes me think I am an awful person that has done something terrible in a past life (if there is such a thing) and now I am being punished for it.

I just want to be a normal guy! Why is that so much to ask for?

Have you had any bloodwork done?

Might be a long shot but low T in men can cause unrest potentially even a degree of dysphoria.

Bear in mind this is a guess at a possibility only.

In the end only you can say who or what you are but the mind is affected by the body.

If your brain is designed to run on E then T can seriously mess with your head (probably just me though) and vice versa.

Only other thing you might want to try is taking a T blocker and E for a month and then review.

Quote from: Jerrica on May 04, 2016, 04:34:54 PM
Have you had any bloodwork done?

Might be a long shot but low T in men can cause unrest potentially even a degree of dysphoria.

Bear in mind this is a guess at a possibility only.

In the end only you can say who or what you are but the mind is affected by the body.

If your brain is designed to run on E then T can seriously mess with your head (probably just me though) and vice versa.

Only other thing you might want to try is taking a T blocker and E for a month and then review.

No I haven't had any kind of tests. I keep getting told there are no tests available. Having said that, judging by the amount of body hair I have (think gorilla!), I am guessing I don't have low T.

I don't think body hair is a reliable measure of T level.  I had pretty high T along with really sparse body hair all my life.  The genetic component is much more influential than just the T level.


Sapere Aude

Quote from: jayne01 on May 04, 2016, 03:55:52 PM
How can you live life not knowing what you are?

After almost 60 years on this rock I haven't a clue either beyond how I feel. What makes me happy, what brings me joy, what makes me sad. Trying with all my being to supress, ignore or otherwise deny that I am TG was about as fruitful as trying to deny I am an alcoholic. There is no 'Test' for that either.

QuoteMy therapists seem unable to help me, not from lack of trying either.

There is only one person in the universe that can 'help'. The answers need to come from the inside and not some person of letters

QuoteI just want to be a normal guy! Why is that so much to ask for?

I had the same request for 40 years. Like wishing to wake up as a girl since the age of 4, being a normal guy didn't pan out either

Quote from: jayne01 on May 04, 2016, 03:55:52 PM
How can you live life not knowing what you are? It is torture for me. I always feel like I am an outsider, an observer. I'm in a glass bubble watching other people live their lives but I'm not included because I'm not real or something like that. I keep waiting to one day wake up and be told that I was part of some cosmic science project. I don't even know where to go for help. This website is great, but is very anonymous. It is just words on a screen. I know you are all real people that are trying to help, but I have never met any of you and you don't know me just like I don't know any of you.

My therapists seem unable to help me, not from lack of trying either. They are trying very hard, but so far nothing is working. I sent them an email earlier today telling them how angry I am at them for not telling me what is wrong with me and not wanting to help me. Who does that to the very people who are trying to help? It all just makes me think I am an awful person that has done something terrible in a past life (if there is such a thing) and now I am being punished for it.

I just want to be a normal guy! Why is that so much to ask for?

The title of your thread is "There is no solution to this" - in a way you have predicted and pre-determined the outcome of all of the discussion and toing and froing .

You continue to appear to believe that somehow you are alone in having this happen to you. The experiences of so many on this site would seem to prove that's not the case. You're not in a bubble, you're in conflict between what you feel the world wants/expects you to be and what your brain and body are continuing to tell you. Your understandable pain, depression and anxiety are -most likely - absolutely visible to those around you. Even though you've internalised it for so long.

Your anger at yourself for this internal struggle is now coming out in frustration and anger at the therapists who "refuse" to tell you "who" or ".what" you are. But: what would this change in your mindset if they actually gave you a yes/no answer? You already appear to have decided there's "no solution" to your situation - so would anything really change? You appear almost to want there to be continuing hurdles, roadblocks to there ever being a "solution".

You state again that you want to be a "normal guy" - and so you're back to square one. Because you simply wouldn't have spent the time and energy on all of this if you were "normal" (whatever that might be). You balk at having the onus paced on you - as the person at the centre of all of this - to make a call. This really isn't as unreasonable as you make out. You are the one living your life, you are the one who deals with the outcomes of any decisions made about that life. It is for you to make that decision- whatever it may be; you cannot outsource it somewhere else.

You've previously stated you're not very in touch with your emotions, and your work life is centred on your analytical and problem solving skills. I disagree - there are plenty of emotions in your comments: love for your wife, fear of the Unknown, anger at your current situation etc. What I mean is that I don't think you can just pigeon hole yourself as a technically minded person who doesn't deal with emotions. Emotions are going on all around us and, perhaps, part of the issue is your steadfast denial to accept that this is the case. You are determined that all things have an "answer" of the unchanging and indivisible variety....but I think that the world around us makes life a lot more open ended than we might like it to be.

Jayne - if there is to be a solution to this, it lies with you.

Everyone keeps telling me the solution lies with me. Why do psychologists, psychiatrists, therapists, etc even exist if they are not able to diagnose a problem? Why spend all that money only to find out that only you can answer your questions? What do they do at university all those years when the answers supposedly lie in the brain of the patient who has no medical training whatsoever. I suppose I am also to diagnose various illnesses and diseases if they come my way. Why bother with health professionals who have studied for years and years? What could they possibly know? I am my own expert. That doesn't make any sense.

I have had pilots try to tell me what is wrong with a plane. They would say "I have been flying this type of plane for over 20 years and this is what the problem is!" Sometimes they are correct, but often they are wrong. They are not experts at knowing how the plane works and they come to their incorrect diagnosis based on their limited knowledge. A little knowledge can be dangerous. That is why there are experts in different fields who should be trusted in diagnosing what they specialise in. This self diagnosis makes no sense to me. It is like asking Google to diagnose a bunch of symptoms. I have tried that a few times and if Google was correct I would have died many times over due to some terminal condition rather than let a doctor tell me I have nothing more than a minor infection or food poisoning or whatever. I just don't understand where you are all coming from. It is not logical to me.

Like I said, they can confirm what you already know but never will they be able to "fix" you, how can you make certain thoughts or desires go away? Brain surgery? The solution lies within you, but they'll hold your hand towards that path.

You really can't compare yourself with an airplane over and over, an airplane is nothing but material and board computer, no intelligence, emotion..

Quote from: tsroxy on May 04, 2016, 11:58:46 PM

You really can't compare yourself with an airplane over and over, an airplane is nothing but material and board computer, no intelligence, emotion..

A plane is a complex machine made of metal and computers and a whole bunch of other materials. And each plane has its own "personality" even if it is the exact same model as the plane next door. I am also just a complex machine made of biological materials and chemistry and other stuff. I don't see a big difference there. I am just an ongoing chemical reaction between lots of different chemicals.

Jayne, first off, I'd like to give you a virtual hug. You need it.

I understand how you feel. For years, all I wanted to be was a normal guy. So did many of us. That's why so many of us don't start transition until later in life and start families. We just want to be normal.

Well, you know what? Normal is just a town in Illinois. None of us are normal.  Not even the "normal" ones.  Trans or not, embrace  not being normal.

I also think you're thinking about it the wrong way. You are looking for definitive answers, but there aren't any. You're looking at this like an engineer, trying to make all the parts fit together and make sense. That won't happen.  You need to let go of the analytical mindset and focus on emotions.  I know it's hard, but it's necessary. 

Can I offer some suggestions?  Someone else mentioned getting tested for low T.  If you're low, you could try getting on testosertone for a while and see if that helps. I had low T (and I'm hairy like an ape!) so I was on T, but I hated it.  I hated the feel of T rushing through my body. It felt wrong. It's not a test to see if your trans, but it might help.

Try cross-dressing. Find a safe space to try on clothes and make up. See how it makes you feel. I know the first time I wore breast forms, I broke down crying. It felt so right.

Try and visualize your future. Think about your life if you stayed as a man, what it might be like. Then think about living as a woman.  It's all about emotion here. Embrace that.

There's no one right answer, but I'm going to get blunt here, so skip ahead if you don't want to read it.  You are questioning your gender. You have seen many therapists and other professionals about it. You joined an online community for trans people and you chose the username Jayne. You're trans, girl. Now, what do you do about it?  Ignore it?  Try low dose hormones? Cross-dress?  Explore your feminine side? That's up to you my friend.

It's a hard road, no matter which direction you go, so try to make it good. Be kind to yourself. You deserve it. Good luck & hugs!

Charlotte

P.S.  I'm 6' and 300+ pounds. I'm balding and I make one big girl. And I couldn't be happier. Don't let physical limitations stop you.

I don't understand emotions. They don't make any sense. There is no logic to emotions. It is not possible to make decisions based in emotions. Emotions just make everything blury, unclear. How can you make a decision on something that has no basis in any facts? There is no logic to it at all.

Believe me, I'm a big believer in facts. But emotions don't need facts or logic. They just are.  You may need to deal with understanding your emotions before you're ready to accept yourself.

Still need facts, though?  Write down a pro and cons list and share it with your therapist.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote from: jayne01 on May 05, 2016, 12:50:26 AM
I don't understand emotions. They don't make any sense. There is no logic to emotions. It is not possible to make decisions based in emotions. Emotions just make everything blury, unclear. How can you make a decision on something that has no basis in any facts? There is no logic to it at all.

I felt exactly the same way, I spent decades of my life believing only in logic and what was measurable and quantifiable. But it came down to one simple question I had to ask myself, "was I happy?". I couldn't even answer the question! I spent months with a therapist while they helped ME answer this question, and identify what might. I have had to learn to listen and hear what my internal needs are, it's still a very difficult thing to do. But when I do and when I can fit those needs into my life, I can now say it makes me happy, I can't measure it, I just am. It takes time, patience and acceptance.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 04, 2016, 03:55:52 PM
How can you live life not knowing what you are? It is torture for me. I always feel like I am an outsider, an observer. I'm in a glass bubble watching other people live their lives but I'm not included because I'm not real or something like that. I keep waiting to one day wake up and be told that I was part of some cosmic science project. I don't even know where to go for help. This website is great, but is very anonymous. It is just words on a screen. I know you are all real people that are trying to help, but I have never met any of you and you don't know me just like I don't know any of you.

My therapists seem unable to help me, not from lack of trying either. They are trying very hard, but so far nothing is working. I sent them an email earlier today telling them how angry I am at them for not telling me what is wrong with me and not wanting to help me. Who does that to the very people who are trying to help? It all just makes me think I am an awful person that has done something terrible in a past life (if there is such a thing) and now I am being punished for it.

I just want to be a normal guy! Why is that so much to ask for?

I can do it because there is no alternative. I again suggest you accept that we know what we're talking about, as do your therapists.

You see science as hard & fast and at it's core deterministic and I can see that makes sense in your chosen career. -- aircraft maintenance and repair probably has more rules and procedures to ensure high certainty than 99.99% of fields. (Even given this I would wager there is an element of creativity involved in diagnosis.)

However is not science which is entirely involved in learning about the things we don't know. In fact central to physics and mathematics you will find there are contradictions to any notion that the world can ever be deterministic or whether systems of logic can even be internally consistent ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_incompleteness_theorem (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_incompleteness_theorem) )

In a separate answer I laid out the reasons why as you progress to successively less 'fundamental' sciences the world becomes less and less understood in anything like the terms of physics or mathematics.

I wouldn't tell you how to maintain an aircraft that's your field. As a scientist and engineer you might accept my expertise in saying that the deterministic world you believe in is nothing more than a story that we make up to try to wrap our heads around reality.

Please note, I'm not saying I am right, or that you should accept my words, rather that given you have so many examples of people who have progressed through the path of being transgender that you owe it to yourself to learn what you can from them and make that the starting point of the rest of your own journey.

The post above got me to thinking about my thought process in all of this.  It really came down to best guess with incomplete information with a reliance on intuition.  Fortunately, my personality type is comfortable  there and my career profession is trained to make rapid decisions under those explicit conditions. 

I think you are going to have to step outside your comfort zone to move past this.


Sapere Aude

I want to thank you all for continuing to put up with me and still trying to help me. I know that I probably seem like I don't want to take any advice and stick my head in the sand, but that is not the case. I am having quite a bit of trouble linking everything I read on this website with the real world. As I have stated earlier, the Internet is very anonymous and can seem quite disconnected from the real world. I have never met a trans person in real life. So even though this website is a community full of trans people supporting each other, I still feel isolated in a way because I can't relate anything on here to my real world life. I hope that makes sense, I don't really know how to explain what I'm trying to say.

I guess if I was able to relate some of the advice I'm getting here to the real world, then what you are all trying to tell me would make more sense to me. Where any of you able to move to acceptance and onto transition without ever meeting another trans person?

My psychologist is trans himself so my answer is no.  Also, while I am on HRT I have not publicly transitioned and do not have any near term intention to do so.  What I am doing now is working pretty well.


Sapere Aude

Quote from: jayne01 on May 05, 2016, 01:51:34 PM
Where any of you able to move to acceptance and onto transition without ever meeting another trans person?

Oh yes, and I didn't struggle with that. I have seen pretty strong signals that I feel like a woman, increasing in both frequency and clarity, so I decided that it was going to be better to follow the flow instead of fighting it. I wonder about the whys and hows but that's another story.

Your problem is that you think there is something wrong with you relative to your community, not that you have a physiological defect. Therefore, while I'm also a materialist, comparing yourself to a broken airplane isn't an accurate metaphor (I've met some charismatic airplanes, but they never had a sense of community).

Even if you can't stop believing that it's wrong to want to be the opposite sex, there is no way for you to stop wanting to be the opposite sex (regardless of the root of the desire), so you're left with either feeling pain, or taking a painkiller. I know you're afraid of harming those you care about by giving yourself what you're aching for (even if it would be difficult for you to pass, if you have hope, making progress will bring you pleasure), and you have a low valuation of your life, but since you have the option to alleviate your pain, by suffering needlessly, you are most likely hindering your goal of promoting the most good.

Stop self-flagellating to make yourself feel moral, stop contemplating all of the situations you would rather be in, stop torturing yourself with memories of your perceived mistakes, and instead work on creating a decent life for yourself. It is the most productive and moral thing you can do.

I'm sorry for being tough. I'm just trying rouse you from your self-described robotic state. I understand it is difficult for you accept ambiguous ideas and to remove your long held belief that if you acted a certain way, there would be order and justice in the world. Never give up though and along the way, don't feel selfish for asking for help, as you're providing a valuable service. Through you, we are all fighting a common demon.

Also, find a support group. Self acceptance can be much easier if you befriend people that would happily accept you with breasts and a dress.

Quote from: autumn08 on May 05, 2016, 04:50:14 PM

Even if you can't stop believing that it's wrong to want to be the opposite sex, there is no way for you to stop wanting to be the opposite sex

I don't think it is wrong for people wanting to be the opposite sex. I don't think that at all. I don't WANT to be the opposite sex, not even altimeter bit. I want to be a normal guy. I feel like such a f**%ing idiot. I don't remember ever thinking I was a girl when I was a child. It has never been a lifelong dream wishing I was a girl. For a condition that exists from before being born, it sure is taking its damn sweet time revealing itself to me. What a way to flush your whole life down the toilet, to learn that you are not what you thought you were. What the hell is the point of going on......

Quote from: jayne01 on May 05, 2016, 05:27:24 PM
I don't remember ever thinking I was a girl when I was a child. It has never been a lifelong dream wishing I was a girl. For a condition that exists from before being born, it sure is taking its damn sweet time revealing itself to me.

Join the club. I have no memories of ever thinking I was a woman. For me, it was a life long dread of "something is not right." I spent my life chasing what that was from political causes, social injustices and every religion under the sun and a whole lot of alcohol.

The only link I have is always being attracted to feminine things (clothes, makeup, mannerism etc), as if they were things that just felt right. I spent a lot of time identifying as a cross dresser (once I learned there was such a thing) and yet still never said "I am a woman". It took decades until my brain was just tired of it subconscious struggle that it finally surfaced, "I am a woman".

Every one has a different journey so just because yours doesn't fit the trans-normative narrative being blasted by the media does not mean you are not trans.

I have never been attracted to female clothes, makeup and don't have any female mannerisms. I don't fit in to any story described by others here. Maybe I am just too stupid to decipher my own thoughts. Maybe I have always thought I was a girl but not consciously known it. I feel like such an idiot. I don't even know how to understand my own thinking. This is so damn depressing.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 05, 2016, 05:27:24 PM
I don't think it is wrong for people wanting to be the opposite sex. I don't think that at all. I don't WANT to be the opposite sex, not even altimeter bit. I want to be a normal guy. I feel like such a f**%ing idiot. I don't remember ever thinking I was a girl when I was a child. It has never been a lifelong dream wishing I was a girl. For a condition that exists from before being born, it sure is taking its damn sweet time revealing itself to me. What a way to flush your whole life down the toilet, to learn that you are not what you thought you were. What the hell is the point of going on......

By wanting to be normal guy, you're wanting to want to be normal guy, which means you currently don't want to. By describing your gender dysphoria as wanting to be normal guy, all you're doing is revealing your internalized-transphoria (don't worry I have thick skin, so it will take a lot more than that to upset me).

Also, don't view feeling resistance against doing something as being an idiot, but rather an opportunity to become more intelligent. Again, you will have greater self-esteem and be more productive if you do.

Also, since you're a materialist, you should be a compatibilist, and know you've done the best you can so far. Therefore, don't waste time excoriating yourself, and get on with it.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 05, 2016, 01:51:34 PM
I guess if I was able to relate some of the advice I'm getting here to the real world, then what you are all trying to tell me would make more sense to me. Where any of you able to move to acceptance and onto transition without ever meeting another trans person?

To say I was a precocious Know-It-All did does begin to scratch the surface. I got my big thick envelope of info from The Ericson Education Foundation in my early teens after I saw the Christine Jorgenson movie, I lived 10 miles from Times Square in NYC. By the time I was WELL entrenched into my 30-40's there was NOTHING anyone could do say or tell me about being TG

That was untill I hit ROCK-Bottom and found myself in a living room filled with others whose life stories, their feelings, what they did, what they felt, etc. practically mirrored my own.

I was in Shock!  OK fine, Been there done that. All WAAAAY too new. Let's see how next moth goes.

A month later, another meeting. I actually started to spill my guts a bit. For the next week I was again in shock. How the F can this be. I KNOW it all.

A month later. Another meeting. This is for real. I NEED to be there.

A week later I dropped the T-Bomb on my wife

That was 7 years ago. We are still together. I still present male. I am still alive. I know how dead I was on the inside.

I live in constant fear of EVER reverting back to that THING I was. Dead on the inside. A lifeless, soulless Thing that did what was expected. Whose only meaning for existing was.... No F'n idea For sure I'd be eating the barrel of a gun if I go back to that dark place again

As a young child I had an idea about wanting to be a girl but it was kind of normal for me as I have always felt that way and up until about 9-10 I thought the rest of the world felt that way before puberty too. As a small child up till about age 7 I used to rock myself to sleep every single n ight of my life to prevent what I called "the feeling" taking me over. My therapist believes it might have been to try and stop myself disassociating. But did I realise all this on a conscious level? No...but as time has gone by and I have received memories back that I realise just how much of my life has been spent dealing with this. But that is me...as you examine your memories you may find there is a bit more there than you first think?


Liz K

Quote from: autumn08 on May 05, 2016, 05:58:52 PM
By wanting to be normal guy, you're wanting to want to be normal guy, which means you currently don't want to. By describing your gender dysphoria as wanting to be normal guy, all you're doing is revealing your internalized-transphoria (don't worry I have thick skin, so it will take a lot more than that to upset me).

You lost me. I don't understand what you mean. When I say I want to be a normal guy, I mean I don't want to feel the dysphoria. I want to be happy being a guy and not spending every waking minute wondering what I am. I don't have transphobia. I am not afraid of trans people, nor do I have any prejudices against trans people.

I am not a young child, I am in my mid forties, so if it turns out that I am trans, it is not only my life that is affected. I will be affecting the lives of the people I care most about, especially my wife. I have a great responsibility to make sure I have all the facts before I do anything drastic and mess with other people's lives. Being a normal guy would've the best outcome for everyone involved.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 05, 2016, 06:10:58 PM
Being a normal guy would've the best outcome for everyone involved.

I remember that phase and I am glad I am no longer in it. I wont say I am happy but I am a lot happier now that I got off the hamster wheel of denial and wishing.

EDIT: fixed typo

Quote from: jayne01 on May 05, 2016, 06:10:58 PM
You lost me. I don't understand what you mean. When I say I want to be a normal guy, I mean I don't want to feel the dysphoria. I want to be happy being a guy and not spending every waking minute wondering what I am. I don't have transphobia. I am not afraid of trans people, nor do I have any prejudices against trans people.

Internalized Transphobia - Responsibilities = Cisgender Jayne > Transgender Jayne

- Internalized Transphoriba - Responsibilities = Cisgender Jayne = Transgender Jayne

Quote from: jayne01 on May 05, 2016, 06:10:58 PM
I am not a young child, I am in my mid forties, so if it turns out that I am trans, it is not only my life that is affected. I will be affecting the lives of the people I care most about, especially my wife. I have a great responsibility to make sure I have all the facts before I do anything drastic and mess with other people's lives. Being a normal guy would've the best outcome for everyone involved.

What facts are you missing?

Quote from: autumn08 on May 05, 2016, 06:34:05 PM
Internalized Transphobia - Responsibilities = Cisgender Jayne > Transgender Jayne

- Internalized Transphoriba - Responsibilities = Cisgender Jayne = Transgender Jayne

You lost me again. I don't know what you mean by that....

Quote
What facts are you missing?

Whether or not I am trans.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 05, 2016, 06:36:52 PM
Whether or not I am trans.

You already know the answer to this. I do not like being so blunt but this entire thread is you not wanting to accept the answer you already know. You want someone to tell you the answer. You want someone else to shoulder the blame and use as a scapegoat as you work through some seriously major decision that will have outcomes that are not pleasant.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 05, 2016, 06:36:52 PM
You lost me again. I don't know what you mean by that....

If you didn't have any responsibilities, would you want to be a cisgender male, rather than a transgender female, or are the two equivalent?

Quote from: jayne01 on May 05, 2016, 06:36:52 PM
Whether or not I am trans.

If without your responsibilities, you would want to be the opposite sex, you are by definition transgender.

Quote from: autumn08 on May 05, 2016, 06:44:22 PM
If you didn't have any responsibilities, would you want to be a cisgender male, rather than a transgender female, or are the two equivalent?

If without your responsibilities, you would want to be the opposite sex, you are by definition transgender.

Honestly it doesn't matter if I was cisgender male or female. I want the dysphoria and confusion to not be there.

Quote from: Jenelle on May 05, 2016, 06:43:45 PM
You already know the answer to this. I do not like being so blunt but this entire thread is you not wanting to accept the answer you already know. You want someone to tell you the answer. You want someone else to shoulder the blame and use as a scapegoat as you work through some seriously major decision that will have outcomes that are not pleasant.

I've offered my answer and I'm happy to be a scapegoat, but I don't think Jayne wants that. Mostly, I think she is just afraid.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 05, 2016, 06:48:38 PM
Honestly it doesn't matter if I was cisgender male or female. I want the dysphoria and confusion to not be there.

Not cisgender male or female, but cisgender male or transgender female. If the two are equivalent, then it is just your misconception of your exterior circumstances that is preventing you from accepting yourself.

Jayne,

Autumn hit a great point. It is okay, more than okay, to be afraid. I do not think there is a single person that has ever faced this that was not afraid.

I am not being silly here quoting Yoda, I am being dead serious.

"Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering."

While you live in fear, you will live in hate and suffering. I would actually say you are already there.

Quote from: Jenelle on May 05, 2016, 06:43:45 PM
You already know the answer to this. I do not like being so blunt but this entire thread is you not wanting to accept the answer you already know. You want someone to tell you the answer. You want someone else to shoulder the blame and use as a scapegoat as you work through some seriously major decision that will have outcomes that are not pleasant.

If I knew the answer I would not be awake at 2am wondering what the hell I am. I have no problem accepting responsibility. I also don't have a problem accepting that I don't know the answer to something. I have never pushed blame onto someone else for my own actions.

Quote from: autumn08 on May 05, 2016, 06:49:05 PM
I've offered my answer and I'm happy to be a scapegoat, but I don't think Jayne wants that. Mostly, I think she is just afraid.

I came up with the name Jayne when I joined this forum as an anonymous name that has no real meaning. When you referred to me as "she" in your above reply I had to read it twice because the first time I read it I didn't know who you were referring to. I appreciate you doing the right thing and using what you thought was the correct pronoun. Being referred to as "she" did not seem right. It didn't seem wrong either. It just seemed like it fit the username I have. If I was really trans, wouldn't be referred to as "she" make me feel good? (I think you are the first person to do that by the way)

My real name is John.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 05, 2016, 06:53:08 PM
If I knew the answer I would not be awake at 2am wondering what the hell I am. I have no problem accepting responsibility. I also don't have a problem accepting that I don't know the answer to something. I have never pushed blame onto someone else for my own actions.

I am going to continue to disagree with you, you know the answer. Instead of asking "what the hell am I?" maybe you should start asking "what the hell am I so afraid of?".

Quote from: autumn08 on May 05, 2016, 06:51:46 PM
Not cisgender male or female, but cisgender male or transgender female. If the two are equivalent, then it is just your misconception of your exterior circumstances that is preventing you from accepting yourself.

Cisgender male and transgender female are not the same. I would think transgender female and cisgender female are more equivalent. Both identify as female. Cisgender male identifies as male.

Quote from: Jenelle on May 05, 2016, 07:03:02 PM
I am going to continue to disagree with you, you know the answer. Instead of asking "what the hell am I?" maybe you should start asking "what the hell am I so afraid of?".

I am afraid of making a monumental mistake and ruining my wife's and my life because I made the wrong initial diagnosis.

I understand that transition is not easy and is likely very frightening. That is not what scares me. Going down any particular path is not the scary part, it is turning onto the wrong path in the first place.

I need to try and get some sleep. It is after 2am and I am struggling to think straight.

Thank you for your replies.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 05, 2016, 07:01:52 PM
I came up with the name Jayne when I joined this forum as an anonymous name that has no real meaning. When you referred to me as "she" in your above reply I had to read it twice because the first time I read it I didn't know who you were referring to. I appreciate you doing the right thing and using what you thought was the correct pronoun. Being referred to as "she" did not seem right. It didn't seem wrong either. It just seemed like it fit the username I have. If I was really trans, wouldn't be referred to as "she" make me feel good? (I think you are the first person to do that by the way)

My real name is John.

It depends on your beliefs and what you're accustomed to, so I'm not surprised that it felt strange.

This is anecdotal. I also felt strange the first time I was referred to as she on this forum, but now it feels nice. I'm lucky that I do get mistaken for female in public, at least until I bellow a response, but I live as a male, so even now I still think of myself as Adam.

Do what you've always done and get what you've always gotten.

If you start down a path and it's not right, you can always go back and try another. But if you don't try anything and just stay where you are now, will that be a good place for you or your wife? I took and continue to take small steps down a path, each time pausing and assessing if I feel I'm still moving in the right direction, and if I want to take another step. It can start with the smallest of things.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 05, 2016, 07:04:39 PM
Cisgender male and transgender female are not the same. I would think transgender female and cisgender female are more equivalent. Both identify as female. Cisgender male identifies as male.

If you needed to choose between living as a cisgender male, or transgender female would you esteem both equally?

(I know you agree that transgender and cisgender females are equivalent, but I'm using these two options because they are the options you're faced with choosing to identify with.)

Quote from: jayne01 on May 05, 2016, 07:14:56 PM
I need to try and get some sleep. It is after 2am and I am struggling to think straight.

Thank you for your replies.

Goodnight.

Part of what I think you are struggling with in accepting transgender is your belief that you must completely alter your life to 100% female. Now, maybe in the future you will. I am not suggesting that you won't, or shouldn't. I am going to say though that there are more, many many more people in the transgender spectrum that are not living 100% the opposite of their birth gender, then are.

I can tell you as can pretty much everyone on here that acceptance is not just an on and off switch. It is a process. A long winding sometimes wonderful sometimes difficult process. I am not transitioning. I am not planning to. I am never going to say never, but I do not see transition in my future. Right now, I do not need to in order to feel good about myself. I do not need to in order to function. But I did get to a point where I needed to accept that I was not cisgender. I did need to accept myself as more feminine than the average male. Enough that I often will behave in ways, have mannerisms that are more like a female. And I dress as one sometimes. I do not live as one though. I do not consider myself to be a female, but like a female, or perhaps part female. Will it go further, I don't know, but I know I am more at peace with myself and able to be a better everything with simply my self acceptance and just being able to be myself.

I totally understand your worries about the others in your life, namely your wife. Now, some do end up staying together even through full transition, although many do not. When it comes to simply accepting oneself as transgender, and perhaps crossdressing or perhaps other simple ways of expressing femininity, more couples stay together than don't.

You can be transgender and not do a full transition to the opposite gender. Again, not saying that you should or shouldn't, or that you will or won't. I am just saying that to be transgender does not mean you have to, or that you are 100% the opposite gender.

I think for right now, rather than to take on all of mt, Everest of transgender, just start at the beginning, the 1st base camp if you will. Just take it one step at a time. Many never get to the absolute top. It is not right for them. But even for those who do need to be there, it is not a straight climb to the top. It takes many years in most cases. It takes many stops along the way. When you are ready to go further you will. If you have gone up far enough, you will know that too. I personally am camping out about half way up. My wife is fully aware of this. Not always easy for her, but she accepts that this is who I am. I don't know if I will ever need to climb higher or not. Right now, no. I am not making any plans to. If one day I begin to feel like I need to go farther, I will then begin working on that. It has been 3 and a half years from me to when I 1st truly accepted myself. Please try not to think of it as a one and done deal, okay.

I think you were expressing some gender nonconforming feelings, went to a therapist, or several. and got totally confused.
This could happen to anyone unfortunately because of all the recent attention concerning the transgender community therapists and psychiatrists are really at a loss.
But I struggle sometimes in the same way, I wonder if i'm really transgender, or if I'm fooling myself and ruining my <not allowed>  life. But then I recognize how I feel.
Your problem can be solved with self awareness, which yes, is a lot harder than it sounds. You have to forget what everyone else is saying to a certain degree, and know yourself. What do I need, what do I need to feel comfortable and to be happy, and these thoughts might help.
When I try to convince myself that I'm not transgender, it's because I don't want to suffer through all of that trans agony. Passing, hormones, being misgendered. I just wish I could be comfortable in my biological sex, but I'm not, and that's the truth pain and simple, so I have to tell myself the truth and be honest.
Be honest with yourself, and listen to what you need from yourself. If you are comfortable as you are, in a male/ female body, but you like to dress in a gender nonconforming way, whatever go for it. That doesn't make you trans and it doesn't mean you have to transition. Vice versa if you are uncomfortable in your present anatomy, find a way to be comfortable

Moderator edit: Removed profanity as per TOS #11.

Jayne,

Quote from: jayne01 on May 05, 2016, 07:07:28 PM
I am afraid of making a monumental mistake and ruining my wife's and my life because I made the wrong initial diagnosis.

I do understand. You don't want to ruin your wife's and your own life with a wrong initial diagnosis. From that statement and the communication to date it does sound like you have made a diagnosis, but are afraid it may be wrong. If so, is it correct to say that what you're really looking for now is a professional confirmation or negation of the diagnosis—like when a pilot comes to you for a consult?

Quote from: jayne01 on May 05, 2016, 07:07:28 PMI understand that transition is not easy and is likely very frightening. That is not what scares me. Going down any particular path is not the scary part, it is turning onto the wrong path in the first place.

Again I understand. It probably feels like you're standing at a crossroads, where taking a step in one direction seems like it might lead to disaster.  You want someone with much more professional knowledge make the confirmation/negation of your initial diagnosis before you'll take that turn.

If your therapist would request some tests and/or experiments, how would you feel? Perhaps you already have asked, but if not, would you yourself be willing to request such experiments or tests?

Quote from: zirconia on May 05, 2016, 10:07:38 PM

If your therapist would request some tests and/or experiments, how would you feel? Perhaps you already have asked, but if not, would you yourself be willing to request such experiments or tests?

I have asked many times. I have even asked to submit myself to any experimental surgeries if they exist to make the dysphoria go away. I will take a test, but everybody tells me no test exists.

Quote from: autumn08 on May 05, 2016, 07:24:51 PM
If you needed to choose between living as a cisgender male, or transgender female would you esteem both equally?

(I know you agree that transgender and cisgender females are equivalent, but I'm using these two options because they are the options you're faced with choosing to identify with.)

I didn't think it was a choice. You are either cis or trans, I didn't think you got to choose. If I could choose, I would definitely go with cis. Cis anything! Why would I choose to be trans and choose all the difficulties that go with that?

Quote from: gstorm1997 on May 05, 2016, 09:34:46 PM
I think you were expressing some gender nonconforming feelings, went to a therapist, or several. and got totally confused.
This could happen to anyone unfortunately because of all the recent attention concerning the transgender community therapists and psychiatrists are really at a loss.

In Australia I don't thing that the transgender community has gotten any more or less attention in recent times. Caitlin Jenner made the news when she appeared on the cover of that magazine but I think that was pretty much it. I don't think my therapists are being affected by any form of media coverage.

Quote from: zirconia on May 05, 2016, 10:07:38 PM
Jayne,

I do understand. You don't want to ruin your wife's and your own life with a wrong initial diagnosis. From that statement and the communication to date it does sound like you have made a diagnosis, but are afraid it may be wrong. If so, is it correct to say that what you're really looking for now is a professional confirmation or negation of the diagnosis—like when a pilot comes to you for a consult?

Again I understand. It probably feels like you're standing at a crossroads, where taking a step in one direction seems like it might lead to disaster.  You want someone with much more professional knowledge make the confirmation/negation of your initial diagnosis before you'll take that turn.

I haven't made any diagnosis. I have come up with a best guess by reading other people's stories and trying to relate them to me, but my "diagnosis" keeps changing with every story I read because everyone is different and I don't fit in to any story entirely. I have gotten myself so confused that I don't know what to think. I don't trust my diagnosis because it keeps changing. That is why I want a professional to give me an unbiased objective opinion, even their best guess will do. That would be better than what I can come up with.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 06, 2016, 01:35:34 AM
I didn't think it was a choice. You are either cis or trans, I didn't think you got to choose. If I could choose, I would definitely go with cis. Cis anything! Why would I choose to be trans and choose all the difficulties that go with that?

I can't get my point across and we aren't making much progress with this issue, and we have more important issues to deal with, so let's try a different approach. 

If you don't hate yourself for being transgender, you understand that you can't stop wanting to be opposite sex (I know you would rather be a normal guy, but that isn't an option), and you understand that the only way you can improve your life and the lives you care about is to placate your desires, what is stopping you from accepting yourself as transgender?

You can live with pain, or alleviate your pain by continually doing things that move you towards your ideal and accepting there is nothing wrong with doing those things. While I understand that you're afraid to make a mistake, since it benefits no one if you don't alleviate your pain, you really only have one option. Therefore, please liberate yourself from the mess you're using to protect yourself from taking action.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 05, 2016, 05:27:24 PM
I don't remember ever thinking I was a girl when I was a child. It has never been a lifelong dream wishing I was a girl.

Nor do I. Nor has it for me. However things do change. We don't like the same car or the same colour for our bedroom's wallpaper throughout our entire lifes. We can be confused about the reasons why things change, rest assured I am, but we can't change the fact that things change.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 05, 2016, 06:48:38 PM

Quote from: autumn08 on May 05, 2016, 06:44:22 PM
If you didn't have any responsibilities, would you want to be a cisgender male, rather than a transgender female, or are the two equivalent?

If without your responsibilities, you would want to be the opposite sex, you are by definition transgender.

Honestly it doesn't matter if I was cisgender male or female. I want the dysphoria and confusion to not be there.

Don't dodge the question :). You live alone, no SO, no family, no nobody. You are self-employed and make a decent income, you can allow yourself to say "heck I'm not working today". You're free.

Would you like to wake up tomorrow and be a woman? Would you like?

Quote from: jayne01 on May 05, 2016, 07:01:52 PM
When you referred to me as "she" in your above reply I had to read it twice because the first time I read it I didn't know who you were referring to. [...] Being referred to as "she" did not seem right.

While I'm sure how I feel, I found it surprising how difficult was to adapt the adjectives when I talk about myself. In spanish, adjectives have several forms depending on grammatical number and gender, and all it takes is having a conversation in which you reply eg. "I'm not convinced" or "I'm feeling tired today" and then you have the choice. It's taking me weeks to adapt those, while taking care to still use the masculine forms when talking to people at work / friends I'm not out to.

It's perfectly normal that "she" or "her" doesn't sound right at the beginning. You've been using masculine pronouns for forty years.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 05, 2016, 07:07:28 PM
I am afraid of making a monumental mistake and ruining my wife's and my life because I made the wrong initial diagnosis.

You can always try a slow experiment and see how you feel. There are people with are undergoing HRT with low doses. It can be stopped at any point with no long-term effects. Ask your therapist(s) for that. You have nothing to lose. That wouldn't be a mistake, just an experiment. As others have said, sitting there without doing anything does you no good.

Thought I would weigh in with another thought when it comes to our partners. Often times I see where the s/o struggles is in part due to how we struggle with it all. How is she ever to be comfortable with it if you are going through so much inner turmoil? The back and forth struggle, turmoil, not knowing who you are, fighting yourself is harder on her than you accepting yourself. At least then she knows and can decide for herself if this is something she wants to deal with. It is not knowing where you are on all this, watching you struggle, hate yourself, fight yourself and leaving her in a black hole of uncertainty.

Lastly, and I will keep saying this is that you need not look at transgender as an all or nothing deal. Freeing the mind is as important as any change you do make, if you do make any. Not all who are transgender do make a complete change . I like the life I have built for myself. Yes, there are times where I wish I was dressed in women's clothes. Times I wish I was a woman so I didn't have to feel the frustration of being a man. For me, a middle path helps enormously. I get to be able to have feminine expression. I get to be "who" I am inside. The divide between genders is in a lot of ways not  nearly as wide as we sometimes make it to be.

Quote from: autumn08 on May 06, 2016, 04:41:48 AM

what is stopping you from accepting yourself as transgender?

I don't have any proof. Just because I have some weird feeling inside doesn't make me transgender. I need some solid proof.

Quote from: Fresas con Nata on May 06, 2016, 04:45:35 AM

Don't dodge the question :). You live alone, no SO, no family, no nobody. You are self-employed and make a decent income, you can allow yourself to say "heck I'm not working today". You're free.

Would you like to wake up tomorrow and be a woman? Would you like?

I'm not dodging the question. My honest answer is it doesn't matter how I wake up so long as the dysphoria is not there. If I wake up a woman with no dysphoria, that's great. If I wake up a man with no dysphoria, that is great too. Both options are equal to me. I know that is different to what many of you here feel. I'm sure most here would say they want to wake up a woman (or man for FTM) without giving it a second thought. I'm not like that. I only want the dysphoria to go away. That is part of the reason I am having doubts about being trans, I don't think like you.

Quote from: Gendermutt on May 06, 2016, 08:27:12 AM
Thought I would weigh in with another thought when it comes to our partners. Often times I see where the s/o struggles is in part due to how we struggle with it all. How is she ever to be comfortable with it if you are going through so much inner turmoil? The back and forth struggle, turmoil, not knowing who you are, fighting yourself is harder on her than you accepting yourself. At least then she knows and can decide for herself if this is something she wants to deal with. It is not knowing where you are on all this, watching you struggle, hate yourself, fight yourself and leaving her in a black hole of uncertainty.

Lastly, and I will keep saying this is that you need not look at transgender as an all or nothing deal. Freeing the mind is as important as any change you do make, if you do make any. Not all who are transgender do make a complete change . I like the life I have built for myself. Yes, there are times where I wish I was dressed in women's clothes. Times I wish I was a woman so I didn't have to feel the frustration of being a man. For me, a middle path helps enormously. I get to be able to have feminine expression. I get to be "who" I am inside. The divide between genders is in a lot of ways not  nearly as wide as we sometimes make it to be.

How can you accept to be trans and do nothing about it. Wouldn't that just make you feel even more isolated within your own body, knowing you are the opposite of what you appear to be?

I have been through a couple of phases of trying to accept myself as trans. Each time they lasted less than a week and ended in a massive meltdown. During that week I would feel this huge emptiness inside like a massive part of me was missing and then when the meltdown came, I was a total mess and upset my wife enormously. I promised I wouldn't put myself or her through that again unless I have all the facts.

I think you are searching for something tangible, about being transgender, when there is no such tangible thing. Transgender is simply a state of being. I am not any more or less transgender regardless of what I am wearing, or what I am doing.

Most will do something about it, but there is no law, no actual reason to do anything other than accept that you are. Anything anyone does is for their own comfort. Be it occasional CDing, or participating in predominantly female hobbies/activities. Maybe just under dressing. Wearing a small piece of jewelry that is fem. Shaving your legs.... I am not sure what you are now doing or have done, or thinking of doing. I am just reiterating that to be trans does not mean you have to completely alter your entire life and live entirely female and transition. Do you wish to? Do you feel you will only be happy if you do? Can you see a point in your life where you could have feminine expression of some kind while retaining your life as you are currently living it?

I cross dress in private. My nails are on the long side. I shave just about all of my body. At home and around my wife, I am free to just be natural as to however my behavior and mannerisms are, which tend to be on the feminine side. All of that helps me, but none of it is as important as my self acceptance. I don't do those things to make myself feminine, I do those things because I am feminine.  After considering it, I found that transition to living as a woman would be harder for me than to stake out a middle ground and still live life as I do. I have made adjustments to my life, but I haven't completely changed it.

I do get frustrated sometimes being a man. It is sometimes difficult for me. Part of my acceptance is accepting that, and not feeling like a failure for having difficulty being a man. So going halfway up the mountain seems to be a workable solution for me. I don't know if it will be for you, but it is an option you can consider.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 06, 2016, 01:22:40 AM
I have even asked to submit myself to any experimental surgeries if they exist to make the dysphoria go away.

Yet you are not prepared to consider trialling a low dose of HRT to help reduce the intensity of the dysphoria, even for 3 months? There are many who have started HRT and actually thought they were cured, that's how much it reduced the dysphoria for them.

Quote from: Violets on May 06, 2016, 09:51:34 AM
Yet you are not prepared to consider trialling a low dose of HRT to help reduce the intensity of the dysphoria, even for 3 months?

Why have none of my therapists ever suggested any form of HRT? Shouldn't the health care professional be the one to recommend if I should take medication and what kind I should take? Again, this is not making sense to me. It is all backwards. What is the point of health care professionals if the patient does the diagnosis and then decided what medication to take? This is doing my head in.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 06, 2016, 10:01:01 AM
Why have none of my therapists ever suggested any form of HRT?

I honestly can't answer that, but I will say that this is the 3rd time I've been on HRT (the first was in the late 90s) and each time, I specifically asked for it. The difference it made to my headspace within 2-3 weeks, even at a low dose, was astounding!

I'm not sure if this makes any difference whatsoever, but I have only ever seen psychiatrists who specialise in this area, never a psychologist.

Quote from: Violets on May 06, 2016, 10:09:20 AM
I honestly can't answer that, but I will say that this is the 3rd time I've been on HRT (the first was in the late 90s) and each time, I specifically asked for it. The difference it made to my headspace within 2-3 weeks, even at a low dose, was astounding!

I'll try to remember to bring it up next session. I'll ask them why they haven't suggested I try HRT when so many on this forum have suggested I do try it.

Please do. I know you're hurting badly, yet you're scared as well. HRT has been clinically proven to reduce the intensity of the dysphoria in transpeople, so it's got to be worth a try if things are really that bad for you.

Remember, HRT doesn't mean you have to transition if that's not what you ultimately want. For many, it's simply used to manage the dysphoria, nothing more.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 06, 2016, 08:32:34 AM
I don't have any proof. Just because I have some weird feeling inside doesn't make me transgender. I need some solid proof.

So the fact you stay up til 2 am asking yourself what the hell you are is not proof enough? News flash, cis people do not stay awake at night wondering what their gender identity is.

Quote from: Jenelle on May 06, 2016, 10:40:55 AM
So the fact you stay up til 2 am asking yourself what the hell you are is not proof enough? News flash, cis people do not stay awake at night wondering what their gender identity is.

This ^^

At most, a cis person might briefly wonder what it's like to be the opposite sex, just as they might wonder what it would be like to be another race or nationality. I highly doubt it would make them feel distressed, or lose any sleep over it!

Quote from: Jenelle on May 06, 2016, 10:40:55 AM
So the fact you stay up til 2 am asking yourself what the hell you are is not proof enough? News flash, cis people do not stay awake at night wondering what their gender identity is.

I guess it is like Gendermutt suggested. I'm trying to find some sort of tangible evidence. Something other than my thoughts and feelings. Over the years I have grown not to trust my thoughts and feelings, so when I'm told that I am the only one to know if I am trans and that knowledge comes from my own thoughts and feelings, it all seems very foreign to me. I have no baseline reference to determine what is true and what is my imagination.

Once in a while I am right lol. Jayne, you have to stop putting so much pressure on yourself. The word or term itself is driving you bat sh-t crazy. I totally get why. But stop worrying so much about it. What if for now just go with gender variant. You are worried about diving into the deep end when you don't even know how to swim yet. I don't know where you are in terms of feminine expression. But maybe for now, just spend some time (not all) in with the CD section, the non binary stuff. A common word today that fits for me is gender fluid. In reality, I do not spend hardly any time thinking about transgender as to what it really means to me. It is a term which 3 and a half years ago was given to me by a very qualified gender therapist who described it as an umbrella term that carries the entire spectrum from occasional fun cross dressing to full transition. Transition itself has many variations too btw. I know of one person who is currently living 24/7 as a woman, yet has done zero in terms of surgery. At the most perhaps has been some laser hair removal. This person is currently not considering doing any surgery. Then there are others who are primarily living as their assigned gender, yet are on HRT simply for the dysphoria. Doses not strong enough to have major effects on their body. I swear to you, what has been of most impact for me is not what temporary feminizing I do. It is letting myself be who I am inside. Understanding that I was not a failure as a man because I am not a masculine man. I am a good person. I am simply a feminine person for whatever reason. When I do get frustrated, I sometimes will just say to myself, I am not a failure, I am just feminine.

Jayne, the intense self-doubt you feel could actually be another symptom!

I mentioned to my therapist that as a leading person in my field of work, I frequently had this odd worry that others in that field would 'discover' that I was somehow a phony, not as competent as I appeared.  This, despite a stack of patents, products used by millions of customers, industry awards, and such.  He told me that such self-doubt was common, and it was somehow linked to my male persona that I hid behind.  Fear of discovery, if that persona were breached, I think it was.

Absolute, hard proof of these subtle things that (literally) are going on in our heads is very hard to come by.  Maybe a Functional Magnetic Resonance Imaging (fMRI) of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc) would tell the tale, if it weren't insanely expensive and incredibly hard to find facilities for.  (The volume of the BSTc is 44% larger in heterosexual men than heterosexual women.  In MtF transsexuals BSTc volume was measured at 52% of the reference males, per 'Nature', 2 Nov 1995.)

Quote from: jayne01 on May 05, 2016, 01:51:34 PM
I want to thank you all for continuing to put up with me and still trying to help me. I know that I probably seem like I don't want to take any advice and stick my head in the sand, but that is not the case. I am having quite a bit of trouble linking everything I read on this website with the real world. As I have stated earlier, the Internet is very anonymous and can seem quite disconnected from the real world. I have never met a trans person in real life. So even though this website is a community full of trans people supporting each other, I still feel isolated in a way because I can't relate anything on here to my real world life. I hope that makes sense, I don't really know how to explain what I'm trying to say.

I guess if I was able to relate some of the advice I'm getting here to the real world, then what you are all trying to tell me would make more sense to me. Where any of you able to move to acceptance and onto transition without ever meeting another trans person?

I spend a lot of my time in queer venues and have been attending pansexual sex themed parties dressing femme for 15 years or more and sure I met a fair number of trans people along the way; however all of that was after I had already determined I was trans. That happened along with the help of my therapist and support of my girlfriend.

You haven't talked -- or maybe I missed it -- about how your wife feels about the possibility of your either simply presenting as more feminine or transitioning etc. I don't know if she is upset die to the possibility or due to your being upset.

The things I changed over the last 15 years - now moving on to HRT and maybe in due time surgical transition has been enact my preference to communicate in ways more associated with women, which has also included a lot of changes in how I think.

This has had the very positive effect that now starting HRT and announcing the changes to basically everyone I know now feels like finally putting on clothing that is the right fit.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 06, 2016, 10:51:57 AM
I guess it is like Gendermutt suggested. I'm trying to find some sort of tangible evidence. Something other than my thoughts and feelings.

Yeah kind of: what's your favourite colour? Orange, I hear? I don't believe you, can you prove it? Give me a tangible evidence?

Being trans is the same.

Quote from: Michelle_P on May 06, 2016, 01:26:04 PM
Maybe a Functional Magnetic Resonance Imaging (fMRI) of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc) would tell the tale, if it weren't insanely expensive and incredibly hard to find facilities for.

I am actually very interested in this. Do you know the ballpark of how much this would cost and go about getting this done? Have you tried?

Hi Jayne

I am a 45 year old person who is going through much of the same thing you are.  Here is my advice.

STOP SEARCHING FOR A DIAGNOSIS!!!!

The truth is, it doesn't matter if you are trans or not.  You do not get to choose what you are, but you DO get to choose how you live your life.

It took me a long time to accept my dysphoria, and come to peace with it.  I finally accepted that there is a large part of me that is, and will always be female, but I have chosen to still live outwardly as a man. 

Ask yourself this.  Is it within you ability to accept your dysphoria, but still choose to live as a man?  For some people this isn't possible and those people choose to transition.  But for people like me, this is an option.  I find ways to express my femininity, either privately, or in ways that fit well into the life I have chosen (for example, my on-line presence is almost exclusively female).

So, they question you should be asking yourself it NOT "Am I transgendered?".

I think the question you should be asking yourself, is "Can I live my life without transitioning right now?".

If the answer is "no", then this suggests a course of action (HRT, etc.).

If the answer is "yes", then I suggest living your life and finding a way to accept the feminine parts of your personality.

Best of Luck,
Janet

OP, excellent advice from gendermutt and scinerd

Rachel, fmri is principally used in research, the main medical use according to wikipedia is in preparation for some uncommon brain surgeries.

In research settings they run $500/hour, medical would probably be much higher and I doubt you could get a dic to order one.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 06, 2016, 08:32:34 AM
I don't have any proof. Just because I have some weird feeling inside doesn't make me transgender. I need some solid proof.

That feeling is tangible evidence (everything is based in the material world), is the only evidence available, and the only evidence needed to diagnose someone with gender dysphoria. It is illogical to refuse to use the only evidence available, because you want evidence that isn't available.

I like Fresas con Nata's analogy. Regardless of why you like the color orange, you like the color orange and you can't stop liking the color orange. There is no test to prove you like the color orange, but the only way to mitigate the pain of not having enough orange in your life, is to incorporate more orange. As Gendemutt wrote, you may not need a drastic infusion of orange to create better balance in your life, but you do need to accept that incorporating more orange in your life is a good thing and construct a new compromise.

The reason your therapists aren't diagnosing you with gender dysphoria is because they are treating your internalized-transphobia, by forcing you to accept yourself (I agree with them that your sub-categorization of your desires, your self-hatred and your illogical refusal to improve your life and the lives of those you care about, indicates a diagnosis of internalized-transphobia). This is a standard step to help a patient realize their most advantageous path forward and if HRT is part of it. After 3/4 of a year though, I wish they changed their approach and would just tell you that you're transgender and since you don't have the willpower to give yourself what you want, prescribe low dose HRT.

I'm sorry that your authority figures won't recommend this to you, but using that as a roadblock against doing what is logically best for you, is only harming you and those you care about.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 06, 2016, 08:39:18 AM
I'm not dodging the question. My honest answer is it doesn't matter how I wake up so long as the dysphoria is not there. If I wake up a woman with no dysphoria, that's great. If I wake up a man with no dysphoria, that is great too. Both options are equal to me. I know that is different to what many of you here feel. I'm sure most here would say they want to wake up a woman (or man for FTM) without giving it a second thought. I'm not like that. I only want the dysphoria to go away. That is part of the reason I am having doubts about being trans, I don't think like you.

If you're not factoring in your responsibilities, by so easily relinquishing who you are, you're revealing some of your internalized-transphobia. Also, the fact that you tacitly conceded that reducing your pain is a net positive for you and your loved ones, I think is further proof that you're allowing some hateful views to permeate your views. The way I can tell a transgender person has cured themselves of internalized-transphobia, is when they concede that their life would be easier without gender dyphoria, but if given the option, their self-esteem wouldn't allow them to relinquish their gender without a good reason.

Internalized-transphobia is not your only problem, and I think we can make more progress in other areas, so I won't talk about it anymore, unless you want to. Again, I think it is mostly fear that is holding you back, so like everyone else, I'm trying to find fallacies and remove them.

Quote from: SadieBlake on May 06, 2016, 03:51:06 PM

In research settings they run $500/hour, medical would probably be much higher and I doubt you could get a dic to order one.

To me, knowing is priceless and brings closure, so I would happily pay large sums of money (assuming I had it) to find the answer. If I find a good way, I will let everyone on this forum know about it for their reference :)

Quote from: rachel_grr on May 06, 2016, 03:37:00 PM
I am actually very interested in this. Do you know the ballpark of how much this would cost and go about getting this done? Have you tried?

Oh, dear.  I was slightly kidding about that.  fMRI machines are research tools, used in advanced studies to to neat tricks like watching activity at a very fine level in a brain.  Between fMRI examinations and autopsies, there's been a good bit of research work that shows the brain of a MtF transsexual is very similar to a female brain in some areas.  This sort of testing is a few decades away from being a diagnostic test the doctor can order up.

There's an enormous reluctance in most of us to initially accept that we are likely to be transgender folks, particularly for those of us raised in strongly transphobic societies.  A good gender therapist might be able to help us examine our lives in detail to make the decision about our true nature.  They shouldn't push us in a specific direction, so there isn't a magical moment where they tell us "Oh, you're a 98 out of 100 on the MtF Transsexual Score."  It's a hard absolute conclusion for us to reach, in the face of the social pressure and personal impact it can have.

I honestly think that just being able to ask the question in the face of social and internalized transphobia is a strong indicator of one's nature.  Sorry that I can't offer a magic solution, but there really isn't one yet.

I still don't understand. A couple of years ago I fell of my mountain bike and landed quite heavily on my shoulder. The same shoulder I had previously injured at work. It hurt like hell and thought I might have broken a collar bone or some other bone. I went to the doctor and physio and it was determined that I had not broken anything. It was just some inflamed joint tissue causing impingement on some nerves when I moved in certain ways.

If I had just gone with my own feelings of what I thought was the problem I would have been trying to fix a broken bone when the was no break to fix.

How can I so easily accept being trans when there may be other issues as the cause of my troubles? I had no idea how my shoulder was constructed to know that nerve impingement was even a possibility. It is not my area of expertise. So why is it I am suddenly a brain expert and can know if I am trans or not?

I don't think it is a phobia. I simply want to make the correct diagnosis. If I diagnose a fault with a plane based on a feeling, yes I might get it right but I might also get it wrong. The consequences of me getting it wrong are the plane crashes and people die. Making decisions based on feelings is not an option.

A lot of times when people suffer from IBS, the way to determine the cause of it is by altering the diet to see what makes you feel better and what makes you feel worse. I haven't read whether or not you are crossdressing or doing other things for feminine expression, like body shaving, or wearing jewely, underdressing etc etc. Sit and watch chick flicks with your wife. Walk into a store that is mostly feminine, like a bath and body store. A fragrance store. Do any of these things make you feel more comfortable, or less? Do you feel like you belong there? Do you find comfort in the company of only women? In mixed company, do you find yourself listening in more intently on the conversations women are having?

And as I and others keep saying. (it may one day sink in) Just take it slow. If you come to a point of your diagnosis that you are trans.... which for the rest of us means acceptance, then, where on that path do you  go. nearly unlimited options as to which path to take and how far to take it. Unfortunately though, like the IBS diagnosis and treatment, you will likely have to walk a little on some of these paths to figure out this transgender thing.

Quote from: Gendermutt on May 07, 2016, 12:05:46 AM
A lot of times when people suffer from IBS, the way to determine the cause of it is by altering the diet to see what makes you feel better and what makes you feel worse. I haven't read whether or not you are crossdressing or doing other things for feminine expression, like body shaving, or wearing jewely, underdressing etc etc. Sit and watch chick flicks with your wife. Walk into a store that is mostly feminine, like a bath and body store. A fragrance store. Do any of these things make you feel more comfortable, or less? Do you feel like you belong there? Do you find comfort in the company of only women? In mixed company, do you find yourself listening in more intently on the conversations women are having?

And as I and others keep saying. (it may one day sink in) Just take it slow. If you come to a point of your diagnosis that you are trans.... which for the rest of us means acceptance, then, where on that path do you  go. nearly unlimited options as to which path to take and how far to take it. Unfortunately though, like the IBS diagnosis and treatment, you will likely have to walk a little on some of these paths to figure out this transgender thing.

I don't know what IBS is, but I'm guessing it is just an example you are using.

I have tried cross dressing a couple of times. All I see is a pathetic guy wearing a dress. I don't see anything feminine at all. I have shaved my legs a few times (easy to hide under long pants). I always get mixed feelings when u do that. At first I think I like it then I wonder what the hell am I doing and then regret doing it because it gets itchy as hell and I get shaving rashes. I don't wear any jewellery other than my wedding ring when I'm not at work (too dangerous to wear at work). I have tried wearing women's underpants, unless I make a conscious effort to think that I am wearing them, I don't even know they are there. I watch all kinds of movies with my wife, including chick flicks. Fragrance stores make both me and my wife feel sick. The smell is too overpowering. I rarely find myself in the company of women. All my work colleagues are male and I don't have any friends outside of work. The only women I see are my wife and family and strangers out in public. I often do find myself hearing groups of women talking and think to myself that if I was a woman I would not fit into their conversation at all.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 06, 2016, 11:35:39 PM
I still don't understand. A couple of years ago I fell of my mountain bike and landed quite heavily on my shoulder. The same shoulder I had previously injured at work. It hurt like hell and thought I might have broken a collar bone or some other bone. I went to the doctor and physio and it was determined that I had not broken anything. It was just some inflamed joint tissue causing impingement on some nerves when I moved in certain ways.

If I had just gone with my own feelings of what I thought was the problem I would have been trying to fix a broken bone when the was no break to fix.

How can I so easily accept being trans when there may be other issues as the cause of my troubles? I had no idea how my shoulder was constructed to know that nerve impingement was even a possibility. It is not my area of expertise. So why is it I am suddenly a brain expert and can know if I am trans or not?

Again, you're comparing your desires to a broken inanimate object that desires nothing. Like everything, our gender has a material basis (which is unknown and unalterable), but desires that are relative to our community, also require a sense of community that bones and airplanes don't have.

Since you want to be the opposite sex (you would if it didn't require anything of you and no one was bothered), you are by definition transgender, and the only way to improve your life in this area, is to placate your desires.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 06, 2016, 11:35:39 PM
I don't think it is a phobia. I simply want to make the correct diagnosis. If I diagnose a fault with a plane based on a feeling, yes I might get it right but I might also get it wrong. The consequences of me getting it wrong are the plane crashes and people die. Making decisions based on feelings is not an option.

There is certainly a lack of self-love about something, your gender, that constitutes a large part of who you are. That along with your feeling unworthy of your wife and others for having certain feminine preferences, your refusal to improve your life and the lives of those your care about, and your diminutive labeling of your gender dysphoria, I think can only be caused by internalized-transphobia. I agree that it is your fear of making a mistake that is causing you not to take action, but if you didn't have internalized-transphobia, you wouldn't consider accepting yourself as transgender as a potential mistake.

We can disagree on this issue for now and if you would like, talk about other things that are affecting your self-esteem. 

Quote from: jayne01 on May 06, 2016, 08:45:16 AM
How can you accept to be trans and do nothing about it. Wouldn't that just make you feel even more isolated within your own body, knowing you are the opposite of what you appear to be?

Acknowledging that you desire something doesn't mean you need to take drastic action, as it may not worth doing so. Also, not doing so, doesn't cause pain. I would love to immediately transition, but I have greater priorities that when I remind myself of, make me no longer desire to immediately transition.

Don't set limitations on a desire because you think the desire is wrong, or you will suffer from self-hatred (internalized-transphobia), but set limitations on your actions when they aren't currently beneficial and work towards a state where fulfilling your desires would be beneficial (Happiness requires constant forward movement towards your ideals. Also, sadly, your ideals are currently in conflict.). Since you aren't incapable of weighing your desires though, I and almost everyone who reads your story, recommend you start by trying low-dose HRT.

Quote from: jayne01I don't know what IBS is, but I'm guessing it is just an example you are using.

I have tried cross dressing a couple of times. All I see is a pathetic guy wearing a dress. I don't see anything feminine at all. I have shaved my legs a few times (easy to hide under long pants). I always get mixed feelings when u do that. At first I think I like it then I wonder what the hell am I doing and then regret doing it because it gets itchy as hell and I get shaving rashes. I don't wear any jewellery other than my wedding ring when I'm not at work (too dangerous to wear at work). I have tried wearing women's underpants, unless I make a conscious effort to think that I am wearing them, I don't even know they are there. I watch all kinds of movies with my wife, including chick flicks. Fragrance stores make both me and my wife feel sick. The smell is too overpowering. I rarely find myself in the company of women. All my work colleagues are male and I don't have any friends outside of work. The only women I see are my wife and family and strangers out in public. I often do find myself hearing groups of women talking and think to myself that if I was a woman I would not fit into their conversation at all.

IBS, or irritable bowel syndrome. bloating, cramping, pain, constipation or diarrhea are the most common symptoms. Usually caused by a food allergy or the body unable to properly process. Gluten is a big reason for IBS, lactose intolerance, the inability to digest dairy products. Other things can cause it as well. So, the only way to know what your body is having trouble with is to add and subtract foods to figure out what foods are causing the problem.

As for the crossdressing and other feminization you have attempted, I didn't ask you what you looked like, I asked you how you felt. Leg shaving, is shaving and being itchy and having rashes. It just takes practice like anything else, technique, skin care before and after.

I want to emphasize this as much as possible here.............  Because denial is a REAL strong thing. BUT- it could be part of your problem is that while you are likely somewhere in the transgender spectrum, you may not be a candidate for making a full transition to living as and becoming a woman physically.

All the things I mentioned in my post are things that when I encounter them, a sense of calm and comfort come over me. I feel I belong there. I feel those places are for me. Now, the Olfactics of both you and your wife make it hard to be able to be in high scented places. That happens. Mine are a bit sharper than many. My wife is a licensed hair dresser, although that is not her employment. She just keeps current and does family and friends to stay in practice. But OMG, I gag at the hair dye. Nail salons can be overpowering as well. I guess the reason why you see most of them, in the bigger ones anyway wearing masks. I would definitely have to. *sorry, tangent*

I suggested these things because how they make you feel. That is a strong indicator for many of us. I am very comfortable around the company of only women. I feel I fit in. And I tend to overhear the convos of women when in mixed company quite a bit. I do not post pics and do not spend hardly any time looking in the mirror. unless I am going to do a full transformation which is rare, what is the point?  I still primarily look like a guy with some women's clothing on. But I feel good wearing them. I feel right wearing them.

As I said, Denial can be unbelievably strong. You so much do not want to like these things, you can make yourself believe that you don't. Been there, done that. I used to hate, HATE the feeling of fingernails that were so much as even with my fingertips. Or so I thought. Now they are a little past the tips, and it does not bother me at all. I like them better long. And they can even be useful. Granted, I do not have a job that requires me to work hard with my hands.

Now, maybe a reason why you are having such difficulty with the whole trans thing is because you might possibly be in the dude in a dress club, otherwise known as simply a crossdresser. There are many more who are in the TG spectrum  who will dress and do other feminine forms of expression, and never transition. Never internally identify as a woman. And they are happy to be this way. They are male, live primarily as male, and occasionally hop over the gender fence once in a while, kinda like a vacation. Just take it all in once a while, then go back to being a regular guy.

I am not saying that is or isn't you. It could be you have so much denial going on that it is blocking you from exploring and enjoying feminine expression. You talk of dysphoria, and that itself comes with a lot of variations. I have none when it comes to my man parts. But body hair drives me insane. A couple days of stubble and I am shaving it. I hate the feeling of body hair. I think it looks gross on me, and it feels gross having it. Laser hair removal may be in my future some day. Shaving nearly my entire body 3 or 4 times a week is a PITA. but I will gladly do that to rid myself of my disgusting body hair.

Quote from: autumn08 on May 07, 2016, 04:07:48 AM

Since you want to be the opposite sex (you would if it didn't require anything of you and no one was bothered), you are by definition transgender, and the only way to improve your life in this area, is to placate your desires.

I don't want to be the opposite sex. I keep saying I want to be a normal guy. I don't want any of these dysphoria feelings and I don't want any of the thoughts that keep entering my head. I don't want any of that. I didn't ask for it, I don't desire it, I just want it gone!

I don't remember if I mentioned this earlier. My wife and I are currently in Sweden on holiday. To day we went for a drive, just the two of us through some really beautiful countryside. All day my mind was alternating between feeling perfectly OK being me (a guy) and then thinking I should be a female. It was alternating back and forth so often, sometimes only minutes would pass then the thoughts would switch. Everything I do I wonder if I feel male or female doing it. It is so utterly exhausting. How can I be trans when I feel just fine being a guy one minute and the next think I should be a girl. It is so confusing. I cannot make a decision about what I am. So far some kind of mental illness seems to be the best fit.

Quote from: Gendermutt on May 07, 2016, 10:06:38 AM

As for the crossdressing and other feminization you have attempted, I didn't ask you what you looked like, I asked you how you felt. Leg shaving, is shaving and being itchy and having rashes. It just takes practice like anything else, technique, skin care before and after.

Cross dressing makes me feel horrible. I feel like a guy wearing women's clothes, I look utterly ridiculous and it just makes me feel sick in the stomach.

Quote
All the things I mentioned in my post are things that when I encounter them, a sense of calm and comfort come over me. I feel I belong there. I feel those places are for me.

I suggested these things because how they make you feel. That is a strong indicator for many of us. I am very comfortable around the company of only women. I feel I fit in. And I tend to overhear the convos of women when in mixed company quite a bit. I do not post pics and do not spend hardly any time looking in the mirror. unless I am going to do a full transformation which is rare, what is the point?  I still primarily look like a guy with some women's clothing on. But I feel good wearing them. I feel right wearing them.

I am not comfortable around people in general. I don't fit in when guys are in a group. I can't relate to any of the macho talk that goes on. It usually upsets me, because more often than not, conversations become focused on women and they talk about them as sex objects. I'm getting upset now just thinking about it. I don't often find myself with groups of women, but I don't relate to them either. I always feel like an outsider with any group.

Quote
Now, maybe a reason why you are having such difficulty with the whole trans thing is because you might possibly be in the dude in a dress club, otherwise known as simply a crossdresser. There are many more who are in the TG spectrum  who will dress and do other feminine forms of expression, and never transition. Never internally identify as a woman. And they are happy to be this way. They are male, live primarily as male, and occasionally hop over the gender fence once in a while, kinda like a vacation. Just take it all in once a while, then go back to being a regular guy.

I am pretty sure that I am not a crossdresser. They are just clothes and don't change who I am. And as I mentioned above, crossdressing actually makes me feel worse about myself. Maybe I am trans. When i get the dysphoria, it is my body that feels wrong, not my clothes. But the feeling comes and goes and swings from one extreme to the other. It is so confusing. When the feeling is not there, I am totally convinced I am a guy and not trans in the slightest. When the dysphoria hits me, I wish I had a female body  and in my mind I think that I might be female,  then I would see my reflection in a window or mirror and see what I look like and who I actually am and I get thinking what an idiot I am. It confuses me immensely! I don't know what I am and cannot make any sense of it.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 07, 2016, 11:19:22 AM
How can I be trans when I feel just fine being a guy one minute and the next think I should be a girl. It is so confusing.

It's easy. I spent 40 years doing just that. "I want to be a NORMAL Guy... and a girl"

Try to stop thinking in binary terms. Doing so will only extend the war. Extend the confusion. You cannot erase who you were. What makes you the you you are today. You can also make adjustments to be a bit different, less confused, and happier you. Not doing anything is simply not going to change things.

Change comes from within.

That is of course you aren't harboring the same fantasy I had of being grabbed up and forced to be a woman. Take the decision out of my hands, PLEASE.

I realized several years ago I needed to find some way to get these two seemingly disparate aspects of myself to live in peace, rather then at war. It takes work. It takes help. I spent 40-50 years going it alone though I lived in the shadow of New York City.

Dual Gender or Gender fluid falls into the category of transgender btw. Maybe you just have both as part of your core. I do. When I let the female side loose internally, she caused a lot of havoc in my head for awhile. She still does lol. She basically was having a giant sorority party in my head when I set her free.

OMG!! I am having trouble with simple binary male/female. I know there is a whole spectrum of non binary, but I have been deliberately trying to avoid going there. If being binary transgender (is that a correct term) is difficult, non binary or gender fluid must be so much more difficult. Thinking about it makes my head spin.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 07, 2016, 11:19:22 AM
I don't want to be the opposite sex. I keep saying I want to be a normal guy. I don't want any of these dysphoria feelings and I don't want any of the thoughts that keep entering my head. I don't want any of that. I didn't ask for it, I don't desire it, I just want it gone!

I don't remember if I mentioned this earlier. My wife and I are currently in Sweden on holiday. To day we went for a drive, just the two of us through some really beautiful countryside. All day my mind was alternating between feeling perfectly OK being me (a guy) and then thinking I should be a female. It was alternating back and forth so often, sometimes only minutes would pass then the thoughts would switch. Everything I do I wonder if I feel male or female doing it. It is so utterly exhausting. How can I be trans when I feel just fine being a guy one minute and the next think I should be a girl. It is so confusing. I cannot make a decision about what I am. So far some kind of mental illness seems to be the best fit.

We're both talking about gender dysphoria, but you're adding extra layers on top of it, because you think it's wrong for you to want to be the opposite sex. By saying you want to be a normal guy, you're saying you want to stop wanting to be the opposite sex (again, its not possible, so stop wasting time with that label). By saying you have a mental illness, you're saying a part of you wants to be the opposite sex and you're labeling that part with a transphobic term.

For the last 8 months, I think your therapists have been trying to convince you that your wanting to be female is a good thing and you should accept it. Since you're at an impasse with this standard approach (helping the patient want what they want), I recommend you try the backwards approach, which is to give yourself what you want before you want it. Starting low-dose HRT may not completely cure your internalized-transphobia, may not be enough to mollify your gender dysphoria, and may not create a similar relief that many who try this approach experience, but at least jumping in the water, flailing around for a little while and then hopefully realizing your feet can touch the ground should reduce your cognitive dissonance ("I want to be female, a male wanting to be female isn't wrong, but its wrong for me to want to be female").

P.S. Your reply to Gendermutt (#242) reads like a classic example of gender dysphoria impeded by internalized-transphobia.

I came across some new information today (new to me at least). I have lots of fatty lumps under my skin which I was told by a doctor many years ago is Dercum's Disease. It sounds worse than it is: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adiposis_dolorosa

Apart from not looking very good and the occasional mild pain/discomfort, the lipomas are quite harmless. Today I was feeling a bit of that pain and discomfort which prompted me to do a Google search on Dercum's Disease. I learnt that some of the symptoms are emotional instability, depression, confusion. I did not know that? And now I am wondering if maybe that is what I am feeling instead of anything gender related.

When I return home, I will go see my GP to confirm the symptoms on Wikipedia are correct and apply to me and also get her opinion on these lipoma lumps.

Anyone here ever heard of anything like this?

Quote from: jayne01 on May 07, 2016, 04:40:18 PM
I came across some new information today (new to me at least). I have lots of fatty lumps under my skin which I was told by a doctor many years ago is Dercum's Disease. It sounds worse than it is: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adiposis_dolorosa

Apart from not looking very good and the occasional mild pain/discomfort, the lipomas are quite harmless. Today I was feeling a bit of that pain and discomfort which prompted me to do a Google search on Dercum's Disease. I learnt that some of the symptoms are emotional instability, depression, confusion. I did not know that? And now I am wondering if maybe that is what I am feeling instead of anything gender related.

When I return home, I will go see my GP to confirm the symptoms on Wikipedia are correct and apply to me and also get her opinion on these lipoma lumps.

Anyone here ever heard of anything like this?

I've never heard of a correlation between Dercum's Disease and Gender Dysphoria, but your missing the point that what is afflicting you and what your therapist are really treating is internalized-transphobia (your belief that is it wrong for you to want to be the opposite sex). Wanting to be female is equivalent to wanting to be male, but since you want to female, it is a good thing for you to want to be female, because this desire is inseparably linked to your self-worth, and placating this desire is inseparably linked to your happiness.

Quote from: autumn08 on May 07, 2016, 04:54:58 PM
I've never heard of a correlation between Dercum's Disease and Gender Dysphoria, but your missing the point that what is afflicting you and what your therapist are really treating is internalized-transphobia (your belief that is it wrong for you to want to be the opposite sex). Wanting to be female is equivalent to wanting to be male, but since you want to female, it is a good thing for you to want to be female, because this desire is inseparably linked to your self-worth, and placating this desire is inseparably linked to your happiness.

But I don't want to be female. I want to be male. I am a male. These thoughts and feelings I have are not something I want. Why would I start going down a path that will cause me to have more of what I do not want. You keep saying that I want to be female. I do not.

Nice try, but no where does it have anything about gender dyspohoria as a symptom. Jayne, I promise, I remember feeling some of the same things. I used to pray to the big man to make it stop. I tried so hard. I overcompensated often, trying to flush the girl out of my system. I would ignore it. I often believed I slayed the feminine beast, but she would rise up from the ashes of my anti trans assault. I remember when I initially raised the white (or would it be pink) flag. I had had enough. What you say about how feeling masculine literally one minute then feminine the next. I remember rolling through a grocery store, just  weeks into my new acceptance. Feeling in a fem zone. Then came check out time. A really heavy bag, the girl check out person struggling with it, then BAM, in comes mr masculine and I lifted the bag with "apparant" ease. psst- it was heavy hehe. Stuff like that would make my head spin. I remember driving to work early on, thinking what the hell ARE you thinking, nothing good will come of this, you have your wife upset and scared. You aren't going to transition, why are you doing this?  By the afternoon when I would get home before my wife would, I couldn't wait to get into some girl clothes.

Acceptance takes time. You are thinking way too far ahead. All you need to do right now is just be ok with the fact that internally you are not like most other men. It is a human condition, being feminine. Most of the time it is women who are feminine. You are just among the rare one that happens to be born male.

Yes, there are times I wish I was a woman. Times I wish no one gave a crap about any of it. There are times where I don't think about it at all. As this is a transgender board, I speak mostly of issues with gender and my femininity, but I do have a life as a man too. There are times today when it is only that. At work, around my kids, family. Early on I did obsess on everything. Now, not nearly as much. I often will do something now and my wife will giggle or roll her eyes, depending on her mood because I did something very girly like. And I won't even recognize I am doing it. I was watching car racing not too long ago, and my wife is like oh, are you feeling all masculine right now?  Nope, not really, I just like car racing.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 07, 2016, 05:00:27 PM
But I don't want to be female. I want to be male. I am a male. These thoughts and feelings I have are not something I want. Why would I start going down a path that will cause me to have more of what I do not want. You keep saying that I want to be female. I do not.

You want to be female, but you don't want to want to be female.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 07, 2016, 11:19:22 AM
I don't want to be the opposite sex. I keep saying I want to be a normal guy. I don't want any of these dysphoria feelings and I don't want any of the thoughts that keep entering my head. I don't want any of that. I didn't ask for it, I don't desire it, I just want it gone!

I don't remember if I mentioned this earlier. My wife and I are currently in Sweden on holiday. To day we went for a drive, just the two of us through some really beautiful countryside. All day my mind was alternating between feeling perfectly OK being me (a guy) and then thinking I should be a female. It was alternating back and forth so often, sometimes only minutes would pass then the thoughts would switch. Everything I do I wonder if I feel male or female doing it. It is so utterly exhausting. How can I be trans when I feel just fine being a guy one minute and the next think I should be a girl. It is so confusing. I cannot make a decision about what I am. So far some kind of mental illness seems to be the best fit.

A couple of years ago I spent therapy sessions and time in these forums saying exactly what you said about not wanting this. All I wanted was to be normal. I wanted the feelings gone forever. Eventually those thoughts changed to just needing to know which way to go, something that produced the same results for me as for you, i.e. you alone have to make that decision. So frustrating!

I did tons of research on the topic. I even resorted to those stupid worthless quizzes. I wondered if I was actually gay because I couldn't get my head around separating gender from sexuality. Every place I turned, the answer was that a cis person would not be asking these questions. But I still wasn't convinced. I thought that because I liked to analyze things, maybe I was really cis and just overanalyzed it to the point of asking this question. Maybe everybody had these thoughts and they just never acted on them.

I found some videos online that asked therapist style questions to help determine if I needed to transition. After going through a bunch of them, I was sure I did actually need to. But I was terrified and I felt like I looked ridiculous in women's clothes. I was even too afraid to wear a pair of women's jeans in public. Turns out guys really are totally oblivious and don't notice that kind of stuff though.

My thoughts used to go back and forth yearly, then monthly, then weekly. When I got to daily, that's when I made my decision. One day I would feel like I had no need to transition and I was totally cured. The next day I'd be freaking out wondering how I came to that conclusion the day before. Eventually I realized that I would always have this confusion as long as I didn't try to do the transition because I would never know for sure without it. That was the day I accepted myself as trans. It was also the day my confusion cleared up. It cleared up so much that I wondered if it was possible to spend your entire life clinically depressed and not know about it.

There were some other factors for me. I was wishing for death for my entire life, but never had the guts to actually do anything. Shortly before I made that decision to transition, I hit my breaking point where I started to put together plans for ways to let me leave this world behind. Prior to starting my transition attempt, I feared nothing. Now that I'm in the middle of it, I value life in a way I never have in my entire life. After a few months I started HRT and it made me feel even better than accepting myself had. I was ever so slowly starting to not see a guy in the mirror anymore and it was euphoric. A few months after that I went full time, telling everybody I know including work.  I've had my moments of doubt along the way, but I need only remember how close I was to doing something I never thought I would prior to making this change and it keeps me moving forward.

Nobody WANTS to be Transgender
Nobody WANTS brain cancer
Nobody WANTS to be paralyzed
And the list goes on....

I have a LOT of internalized transphobia. This 6ft tall big ugly bastard! NFW! Been there tried it twice. When I was younger all I saw was "Some guy in a dress". It took years of work to now say "Damn, not bad for an old bat". I still do not want to be trans. Yet I am. I also primarily live and present as male. Primarily because I do not Need to transition. When I started therapy it was absolutely off the table. Today I want to, but.... Not worth it. What do I gain? What might I loose. I have joy in my life now.

By definition your birth gender was male. You almost obsess about being a woman. You DO NOT want to actually do it, but.....

So what does that make you?  Simply TG

You Do Not have to decide to show up to work in the morning in a dress to remedy the situation. There is a universe between cis-female and cis-male to explore. To find peace. Perhaps even find happiness.

Only one person can say "This is a nice planet to spend some time on". That person likely doesn't have a lot of letters after their name.

Quote from: jayne01 on April 12, 2016, 11:22:37 PM
Hello. I have been reading through this forum trying to find a solution to my twisted sick mind and I cannot find anything. I have spend thousands of dollars seeing 4 different therapists (3 of them with extensive trans experience) over the past 6-8 months and it seems I am no better off now than before I started.

The only thing I have been able to determine from this forum and my therapists is that I am the only one who can determine if I am trans or not. I am not even confident in making the right decision about what I want to eat for lunch, how can I possibly be qualified to decide something as incredibly huge and life changing as whether or not I am transgender.

My whole life I have lived with people second guessing every decision I have ever made. I have no confidence whatsoever in myself when it comes to making any kind of decision. There is no medical test I can take to determine if I am trans. How can I possibly know? I feel like a total freak, a Frankenstein, an abomination. The only thing I'm reasonably certain of is that I should have ever been born.

How do you know for certain you are trans?

J

A therapist should be able to confirm this. Mine did. The real question is, what are you going to do about it? In the end, it's up to use to live an authentic life. It's either yes or no. I love my therapist, but going to her doesn't help in terms of my being trans per se, but how I feel about it in my daily goings on and how to navigate the land mines. We are what we are. When we make the choice to be our true selves, the real work begins. Happiness takes work. I think. :)

Quote from: jayne01 on May 07, 2016, 11:19:22 AM
I don't want to be the opposite sex. I keep saying I want to be a normal guy. I don't want any of these dysphoria feelings and I don't want any of the thoughts that keep entering my head. I don't want any of that. I didn't ask for it, I don't desire it, I just want it gone!

I don't remember if I mentioned this earlier. My wife and I are currently in Sweden on holiday. To day we went for a drive, just the two of us through some really beautiful countryside. All day my mind was alternating between feeling perfectly OK being me (a guy) and then thinking I should be a female. It was alternating back and forth so often, sometimes only minutes would pass then the thoughts would switch. Everything I do I wonder if I feel male or female doing it. It is so utterly exhausting. How can I be trans when I feel just fine being a guy one minute and the next think I should be a girl. It is so confusing. I cannot make a decision about what I am. So far some kind of mental illness seems to be the best fit.

Who we are is in between our ears, not between our legs or what society tells us we should be. What might be happening is that your conscious mind is fighting the unconscious mind, meaning the true self exists under the mask that you wear every day as a man and it wants to get out. For me, when I admitted that I am a woman in my mind, a lot of bad things went away. Now if I can work it out with my wife, I think I will be a very happy person. I will also tell you that as you get older, it'll be harder to "fight this feeling" you have inside. The truth wants to get out.

I seem to be in a minority here but I do WANT to be transgender. It is part of who I am. What I like, how I feel, I just am and if offered a cure to be "normal guy" I would scream and run as fast as I could.

Even if offered to be born female which I would love I'd refuse as I have made 3 wonderful children with my wife. So yes I do WANT to be trans but enough about me.

You have gone to great lengths telling us how you are not trans but lay claim to dysphoria. All the rejections would be considered thinking like a "normal guy".

Given how much you say you wish you were "normal" ok you've convinced me you are just a "normal guy" so gratz.

But I would have to ask how does your dysphoria manifest?

Also what convinces you so much that you are actually trans given everything feminine repulses you?

If you want told what to do here it is...

1. Get a hormone test
2. If low T get T
3. If normal T try E
4. Tell us how feel after a month or 3

If you feel better on T you're "cured".
If you feel better on E then yeah you are wired female physically and get yourself a trans label.

Either way you will have "proof" following direct physical tests with binary results.

Quote from: Jerrica on May 07, 2016, 07:16:51 PM
I seem to be in a minority here but I do WANT to be transgender. It is part of who I am. What I like, how I feel, I just am and if offered a cure to be "normal guy" I would scream and run as fast as I could.

That's how I feel after achieving self acceptance because any "cure" would require removing such a core part of my being, that I wouldn't even be me anymore and that's not worth it.

Quote from: Emileeeee on May 07, 2016, 09:37:49 PM
That's how I feel after achieving self acceptance because any "cure" would require removing such a core part of my being, that I wouldn't even be me anymore and that's not worth it.

Agree with this whole heartedly. And with Jerrica.

Quote from: ryokohimura on May 07, 2016, 10:09:20 PM
Agree with this whole heartedly. And with Jerrica.

So do I. I think this state is the cure that we all initially set out to find, and I really hope Jayne finds it.

Quote from: Emileeeee on May 07, 2016, 09:37:49 PM
That's how I feel after achieving self acceptance because any "cure" would require removing such a core part of my being, that I wouldn't even be me anymore and that's not worth it.

I cannot agree with this. When I read comments like this, I get more and more convinced I am not trans. I understand where you are coming from and if you are trans that would make perfect sense. For me that does not make sense. I don't think any cure would remove any core part of me at all, it would just remove the confusion.

So many of you that know beyond doubt that you are trans describe your experience and it is totally opposite to what I'm experiencing. Wouldn't that make me the opposite of trans (cis)? This is completely messing with my head.

So many of you tell me to try going down a path and if it is not right turn back and try another path. I am beginning to think I already am on the wrong path. Why else would I be so confused and distressed and unable to relate to most of what you are saying? There must must be something else that is wrong with me that I don't yet know what it is.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 08, 2016, 01:25:48 AM
So many of you tell me to try going down a path and if it is not right turn back and try another path. I am beginning to think I already am on the wrong path. Why else would I be so confused and distressed and unable to relate to most of what you are saying? There must must be something else that is wrong with me that I don't yet know what it is.

How would you feel if a professional definitively said "you are trans, absolutely 100%"?

Forget everything else, how would someone telling you that make you feel?

**Note: not a therapist, just taking a step back.

Quote from: ryokohimura on May 08, 2016, 02:34:41 AM
How would you feel if a professional definitively said "you are trans, absolutely 100%"?

Forget everything else, how would someone telling you that make you feel?

**Note: not a therapist, just taking a step back.

That would be great news. Then I would know and I can then concentrate my attention what to do about it. So long as their assessment is genuine and they are just not saying it to shut me up.

It would also be great news if they told me I was not trans. At least I would know one way or the other.

OK, so what if the same therapist said they were 99.9% sure?

Still pretty good odds. Problem is they are not telling me anything. Not even 1% sure. Nothing!

Quote from: jayne01 on May 08, 2016, 03:16:16 AM
That would be great news. Then I would know and I can then concentrate my attention what to do about it. So long as their assessment is genuine and they are just not saying it to shut me up.

It would also be great news if they told me I was not trans. At least I would know one way or the other.

Ok well I am NOT yet qualified so I cannot make that call definitively, however I am a fourth year medical student who has recently done a psychiatry rotation, in which I learned about a peculiar type of OCD, in which a person can become obsessed with something which is ABSOLUTELY ABHORRENT to them. Typically they become obsessed for example that they *might* be a child molestor, or murderer, or gay... when in actual fact they arent at all and the compulsion to think about this thing causes them huge distress. Studies have shown that these people are often actually the polar opposite of what they become obsessed over, and it is a combination of OCD and fear that leads them to their bizzare fixation.

The differential being that someone who *was* one of these things, would on some level, obtain pleaseure from considering them or acting them out, whereas for the people with this form of OCD the thoughts are abhorrent and horrific, and the acting out is almost unthinkable and utterly distressing.

As I said, I am not a psychiatrist yest, but What you are now describing does sound rather more like that sort of OCD than being trans and I would strongly recommend seeing someone who IS a fully qualified general psychiatrist to explore that possibility.

Unfortunately, identifying the problem is only the first step, and it would be lovely if there were simple and effective treatments for these issues. Sadly the truth is, whatever problem you have, will take time and hard work to overcome. However I do agree with you that asking the right questions about how you feel, so that you arrive at the correct diagnosis, is a good first step.

No one will tell you what to do, at least no one you should listen to. If you read the experiences of the people on this forum, you will see many different ideas and ways of expressing your feelings. Some might work for you, others won't. Experiment, and learn about yourself, it can be fun, this will bring acceptance and in time, some understanding. I still don't know how things will end up for me, but I can answer one single question - I can't stay as I am for the rest of my life. So logically, I need to try something else. For me, it's that simple.

I think Rejennyrated could be spot on there. That does add up properly.

I'm nobody but your posts don't read as trans though will be first to admit my knowledge is very limited.

With no insult intended I would say you  definitely appear to be obsessed and compulsive about this issue despite not being able to tell us why you think/fear you are trans.

Quote from: Rejennyrated on May 08, 2016, 03:49:27 AM
Ok well I am NOT yet qualified so I cannot make that call definitively, however I am a fourth year medical student who has recently done a psychiatry rotation, in which I learned about a peculiar type of OCD, in which a person can become obsessed with something which is ABSOLUTELY ABHORRENT to them. Typically they become obsessed for example that they *might* be a child molestor, or murderer, or gay... when in actual fact they arent at all and the compulsion to think about this thing causes them huge distress. Studies have shown that these people are often actually the polar opposite of what they become obsessed over, and it is a combination of OCD and fear that leads them to their bizzare fixation.

The differential being that someone who *was* one of these things, would on some level, obtain pleaseure from considering them or acting them out, whereas for the people with this form of OCD the thoughts are abhorrent and horrific, and the acting out is almost unthinkable and utterly distressing.

As I said, I am not a psychiatrist yest, but What you are now describing does sound rather more like that sort of OCD than being trans and I would strongly recommend seeing someone who IS a fully qualified general psychiatrist to explore that possibility.

Unfortunately, identifying the problem is only the first step, and it would be lovely if there were simple and effective treatments for these issues. Sadly the truth is, whatever problem you have, will take time and hard work to overcome. However I do agree with you that asking the right questions about how you feel, so that you arrive at the correct diagnosis, is a good first step.

What you say is interesting and possibly true. I did ask my psychologist if there are any tests I could take for other possible conditions (autism, OCD, and some others I don't remember the name of). She didn't think that any of those applied to me. Maybe some very mild OCD but nothing to be concerned about.

Also, please understand that I do not think being trans is ABSOLUTELY ABHORRENT. Far from it. I accept everyone for who they are. In fact, I wish I did know some trans people in real life. I think that would open my world up a little bit, but mostly, due to the pressures society places on trans people, I think that somehow makes them nicer, more genuine human beings that are proud to be their true selves and not present a fake persona. Notice I did not include myself as trans. Not because I find it distasteful but because if I am not trans, I don't deserve to be included in that group of fine people.

I asked my question as I felt this topic is just going in circles.

I mean no disrespect, but if you are trans, what if you're just not ready to accept it? That's fine.

I remember what one general therapist told me. "I don't have the answers." I didn't like her all that much, but it made sense. I find that the general public tend to think that therapists have this magic wand that cures everything. I know my mom was furious when I told her that.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 08, 2016, 04:23:55 AM
Also, please understand that I do not think being trans is ABSOLUTELY ABHORRENT.

Yeah don't misunderstand me - I DO NOT mean that they disapprove of others who are trans, or of the condition itself - rather they find the idea that THEY THEMSELF - might be trans to be absolutely abhorrent - in otherwords the OCD has them continually *checking* in case they *might* be - but the idea that it might be true terrifies and revolts them rather than giving them any pleasure.

My gut is that if you do not feel fullfilled on at least some level by the idea of being trans, however terrifying a challenge it may seem at the outset, then you probably arent.

I know when most people start on the road it seems like a long and hard climb, but at some level, they do feel a sense of excitement to be finally attempting the journey. Reading thorugh you posts, and the fact that 14 pages later you are still sounding more negative than positive, I cannot entirely convince myself that you do feel that excitement and this makes me suspect, at this stage, that your solution may lie on another path.

Once again I emphasise that I am not qualified - and this does not constitute any sort of formal opinion - It is only the vague impression of someone who has perhaps a little personal experience, and who may be wrong.

Quote from: Rejennyrated on May 08, 2016, 03:49:27 AM
Ok well I am NOT yet qualified so I cannot make that call definitively, however I am a fourth year medical student who has recently done a psychiatry rotation, in which I learned about a peculiar type of OCD, in which a person can become obsessed with something which is ABSOLUTELY ABHORRENT to them. Typically they become obsessed for example that they *might* be a child molestor, or murderer, or gay... when in actual fact they arent at all and the compulsion to think about this thing causes them huge distress. Studies have shown that these people are often actually the polar opposite of what they become obsessed over, and it is a combination of OCD and fear that leads them to their bizzare fixation.

The differential being that someone who *was* one of these things, would on some level, obtain pleaseure from considering them or acting them out, whereas for the people with this form of OCD the thoughts are abhorrent and horrific, and the acting out is almost unthinkable and utterly distressing.

As I said, I am not a psychiatrist yest, but What you are now describing does sound rather more like that sort of OCD than being trans and I would strongly recommend seeing someone who IS a fully qualified general psychiatrist to explore that possibility.

Unfortunately, identifying the problem is only the first step, and it would be lovely if there were simple and effective treatments for these issues. Sadly the truth is, whatever problem you have, will take time and hard work to overcome. However I do agree with you that asking the right questions about how you feel, so that you arrive at the correct diagnosis, is a good first step.

This seems like internalized-transphobia, not OCD, as what is distressing isn't the prospect of accepting (Jayne considers that prospect to be "great news"), but the obstruction to the acceptance (albeit, a very illogical one, so I can understand how you theorized that it might be OCD). Also, if OCD was the problem, anti-depressants should have caused some relief, and if her 4 therapists are as well respected as Jayne claims they are, her OCD would have been fairly obvious to at least one of them, after 8 months.

If the prospect of being female in itself was distressing, I would say that the desire to be female is what should be treated, but since it isn't, then I agree with standard approach, which is not to treat this as a problem.

I am almost positive I have what Rejennyrated is talking about. I haven't been officially diagnosed, but I'm sure it's that.

I mostly go through terrifying thoughts of screaming in public places and acting like a spoiled child in front of friends and family and being really cruel and/or annoying. But I never EVER do. Like Jenny said, we are just the opposite. It's really consuming to think about whenever I'm in a public setting. But I don't want to stop leaving the house. I just tell myself internally to get a grip, and hope that's enough to get me through.

But I KNOW that my transness is not part of my so-far-hypothetical OCD affliction. I DO get thoughts about wondering if it's all going to be worth it when I change sexes and go on hormones, the whole nine yards. I ALSO know that I will never ever ever be going back to living as a female. The first binder I bought has recently gone through so much wear that when I wore it the other day, I might as well had worn a regular old bra; it did NOTHING to hide my breasts under my shirt and I felt like I was going to cry (thankfully I have two more binders as spares so I was okay). Also there is a very personal reason I want to become male and I won't explain why here, but the point is, as much as I'm scared about the future and what is in store for trans Kyle, I would sooner die than go crawling back to my old gender.

Have you ever worn a full outfit of clothes of the opposite sex? That was essentially the deal breaker for me when I decided I was serious about the whole thing. Believe me, the waiting for therapy, hormones, etc DOES get to you. There are some trans folks who do question what they are doing at some point in their transition. But I think the question of, "Do I like doing this?" is the most important.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 08, 2016, 12:38:24 AM
I cannot agree with this. When I read comments like this, I get more and more convinced I am not trans. I understand where you are coming from and if you are trans that would make perfect sense. For me that does not make sense. I don't think any cure would remove any core part of me at all, it would just remove the confusion.

So many of you that know beyond doubt that you are trans describe your experience and it is totally opposite to what I'm experiencing. Wouldn't that make me the opposite of trans (cis)? This is completely messing with my head.

Jayne, whenever you reply to your messages, your mind looks for something to disagree with and since your beliefs are filled with conflations and contradictions, you will always find something to disagree with, which you can use as evidence that you aren't transgender.

Again, there is only one logical solution and that is to placate your desires. Since you can't unravel how to do that, you should start by asking for low-dose HRT.

Ok, I am going to go ahead and make the diagnosis for you Jayne. You are gender variant. I am not going to diagnose you as transgender, because only you can do that, but you are HERE for a reason. I know denial, I have been through it all. 6 years ago, when my new girlfriend, now wife  would every once in a while notice I would do something in a fem like manner, if she would have asked then, "are you transgender" I would have said emphatically NO. I would have believed myself back then too. Just odd feminine quirks in an otherwise normal male is what I was.  eh, those little random thoughts of wishing to be a woman, repress, deny, repress, deny, repeat....

As I am human, I have sometimes had other emotional issues. None real severe. I have gotten depressed at times. I have had anxiety at times. I have had anger issues at times. I have suffered from alcoholism. I am on my 2nd go around on the wagon. Not all of these things are directly related to my gender issues. Although all but anxiety are a part of that. Anxiety attacks were directly related to my failing 1st marriage. My other emotional issues, which a lot of people suffer from are from all the various issues in my life, including being transgender.

Accepting my being transgender has not made any of them go away. But it has helped immensely with being able to deal with them. I am now back on the wagon, in part because of my acceptance to being Transgender. Or perhaps having success on staying on might be better phrased.

Nearly 7 years ago when I was 1st dating my now wife, I was going through all of the same repeating deny repress patterns I had always done. My little secret I would take to my grave. No one knew, and I mean no one. No one would ever know. I wouldn't go into a woman's section of a store. If we were shopping, she would browse the woman's section, I would browse the men's, or go to another store. I did not want to go in there. I was afraid I would like it. I was afraid everyone would see right through me and the trans radar alarms would start screeching like a car alarm. My denial made me think that if I stay away from it all, I won't like it,, or start wanting it more.

I, like you Jayne, and so many others, wanted to be normal. I am a born male and just want to be nothing more. I tried everything imaginable to make it go away. I figured if I tried hard enough, or in the right manner, deny it, ignore it, I could successfully purge all this insanity from my brain and be and want only to be male. Every time I failed, a deeper feeling of failure grew within me. Sometimes I would go weeks, maybe even a few months without the random feelings. And I thought I had it beat. Then it would appear again, a picture in a magazine, seeing a woman dressed or just looking a particular way, and it would happen. I wanted to look like that. I wanted to be her. And the cycle would repeat again.

One of the things that kept my on that cycle IS that I still felt an identity to being male. I still do today, which is reason numero uno that I am not on a path to transition. Being transgender, as it was explained to me, does not mean a total cross over to the opposite gender of your birth. It just means at some point, there is a cross over.

Genderfluid is what I best describe myself as and identify as. Some call it dual gender. I have learned that there are ways in which it can actually help me in life. It can be confusing, and frustrating as all hell at times. But I have learned to use my feminine powers for good. In some ways, and even my wife has acknowledged, it has made me a better husband.  8) I have a better understanding of her than most husband have of their wives. I am able to empathize in ways most husbands struggle to, or can't. My wife always admires how I can say the right things that make her feel better. Things, not necessarily feminine, but just ways most guys don't, or can't. It is because I too feel those things that would make me feel better. It is almost an unfair advantage hehehe. I get what many guys don't.

In the end, it is all about acceptance. You are gender variant. Trans, or not trans, it doesn't really matter. There are many CDers out there who do not identify at any time as women, and proclaim they are not trans. Works for me. There are those out there who are trans, identify as TS, but their life for their circumstances puts them on a path which they will still live their lives as their assigned gender. works for me. All you really need to do, is accept that internally, there is a part of you at least that crossed the gender divide. It isn't easy, it takes pretty much a lifetime to fully accept yourself. I am still a work in progress of my own acceptance. I accept that I will always be on a path to my own acceptance. I don't know if it will take me farther down the road toward being a woman, or simply continue where I am and in a more comfortable state. I may be where I am supposed to be, as genderfluid. Or one day who knows. What I do know is that while it is a challenge, while it is frustrating as hell sometimes, I am at a better place now internally than ever before.

Quote from: Gendermutt on May 08, 2016, 08:35:59 AM
You are gender variant....

Trans, or not trans, it doesn't really matter.

This, so much!  Thank you gendermutt!

I started and still look at transgender as nothing more than a tool for dealing with one of my issues (I even felt ashamed at first that I was hijacking a legitimate label, but I decided to say screw it, I'm using the idea anyway).  I had all these concepts of what trans meant, like crossdressing, taking hormones, hating cis ppl, but I learned that its all pretty much BS.  It doesn't really mean any of that, its the idea of doing whatever it takes to help yourself feel better with any gender issues you have.  That's why for me, I have that excitement of being trans and non binary, bc they're tools to fight problems that trying to be a manly man couldn't deal with.  Nothing more. 

It is common that trans people feel better with hormone treatment, crossdressing, or changing how they act socially.  Those aren't actually a necessity with being trans though, don't ever let anyone tell you anything is a for sure prerequisite of being trans.  They'd just be trying to exclude and isolate you.  Same if you wanted to be a man or woman.  It saddens so much when people try to defend the "sanctity" of labels like woman, man, or trans at the cost of someone trying to improve themselves. 

At the end of the day, if gender variant (in all its glorious lack of definition) isn't something that makes you better, then don't use it and throw it away.  Same with the label transgender.  Or man or woman.

Quote from: keira166 on May 08, 2016, 11:51:18 AM

At the end of the day, if gender variant (in all its glorious lack of definition) isn't something that makes you better, then don't use it and throw it away.  Same with the label transgender.  Or man or woman.

This ^^^^

I feel that some are closer to one end of the spectrum than the other, it's a slider, not a simple switch. By trying things out, we can determine what works for us, and what doesn't...  I loved it when a store called me Mrs on their invoice, a clerical error that was a real highlight, it made me feel so good.

Sno

I love Gendermutt's and Keira's last responses so much I saved it to reread and remind myself later on. Thanks! (I don't think I have enough posts to give reputation to yet)

OMG! HOLY CRAP! WTF! ****! (Insert favourite 4 letter word) This may turn into a long winded post, so please bear with me.

After reading some replies this morning this reply from rejennyrated got me thinking.

Quote from: Rejennyrated on May 08, 2016, 04:45:53 AM

My gut is that if you do not feel fullfilled on at least some level by the idea of being trans, however terrifying a challenge it may seem at the outset, then you probably arent.

I know when most people start on the road it seems like a long and hard climb, but at some level, they do feel a sense of excitement to be finally attempting the journey. Reading thorugh you posts, and the fact that 14 pages later you are still sounding more negative than positive, I cannot entirely convince myself that you do feel that excitement and this makes me suspect, at this stage, that your solution may lie on another path.

Reading the above post got me wondering what would I really think if I was told I'm not trans. On the surface, that sounds like the perfect outcome. However, in reality it may not be an accurate diagnosis. The idea of not being trans and perhaps never speaking of it again actually made me feel like I would be destroying part of myself.

Anyway, my wife and I were participating in the Red Bull Wings for Life World Run in Sweden today. It is a charity run that is done all over the world at the same time to raise money for spinal chord damage research. It's a different kind of race. Everyone starts at the same time and 30 minutes later a catcher car starts to follow at a set speed. You keep running until the car catches up with you, then your race is over. There is no fixed finish line. I managed 10.5 km before I got caught, my wife made it 12.1km. (The worldwide winner made it 88.4km!!!) Sorry, I got sidetracked...

After I got caught, I made my way to the nearest shuttle bus to return to the starting point. (My wife made it further than me so was on a different bus). Because the roads were closed to cars for the race, the remaining streets were choked with traffic and it took nearly 2 hours to get back. Sitting on the bus for that time, I was thinking about  what you have all said to me here and I kept thinking how I was feeling right then. I was feeling feminine in my head. I couldn't see my reflection anywhere and tried not to think what I actually look like and it turns out I was relating more to the women than the men that were around me. (Seeing my reflection has a way of slapping me in the face and back to reality) Not because of anything they said or did, but just because they were female. I couldn't understand it, but that's just the way it was. That's when all the lightbulbs came on and I realised that I am in fact transgender. I don't know to what extent and I cannot prove it one way or the other, but it just seemed fitting. That is when I started to cry. Not blubbering type crying, but just silent crying to myself with tears running down my face. That lasted for about half the bus ride back. Good thing I was wearing sunglasses because I might have freaked out the other people on the bus.

I all of a sudden felt relieved, afraid, happy. I became very afraid about what this might all mean, but I tried not to dwell on that. Even though I am afraid, I think I might finally be ready to face whatever may be next.

The weird thing is that I still do not want to be trans, and don't particularly like that I am, but that is not in my control. I don't know how trans I am. By the time evening came around, I was almost back to my previous state of denial, a little shame, self doubt, etc, but something has changed. I'm not feeling as angry about being me. I may be a little bit trans or a lot, but it seems I am somewhere on the spectrum away from cis. Now I am not prepared to say with 100% certainty that I am trans, but there is a very high chance that I am. Maybe 90% certain!?! I would still like to be able to take a test to prove it either way once and for all. As you already know, no such test exists, so I'll have to settle for my best guess, and hopefully when I next see my therapist, she can back up my new found discovery to hopefully boost my confidence that I am on the right track.

I am really afraid of what this is doing to my wife, but I agree with what many of you had said that she does not want to see me in distress. I know for a fact that seeing me in distress upsets her. I hope she can still see me for who I am on the inside. I don't wang to lose her, I would be devastated.

Ok, that's enough for now. I am ready to hear  all the "I told you so's". Don't be shy, I can take it. :)

Jayne

PS: thank you for persisting with me. I knew eventually the penny would drop!

Quote from: jayne01 on May 08, 2016, 05:47:25 PMI am really afraid of what this is doing to my wife, but I agree with what many of you had said that she does not want to see me in distress. I know for a fact that seeing me in distress upsets her. I hope she can still see me for who I am on the inside. I don't wang to lose her, I would be devastated.
Jayne

PS: thank you for persisting with me. I knew eventually the penny would drop!

My wife and I have a lot in common. One of the traits we share is putting the others happiness and well-being above our own. On the same line, being really bad about taking care of ourselves.

I cannot begin to tell you how much it tears her apart to see me crying. Even more so when it is a totally gut-wrenching cry as we muddle our way through one of the difficult to have conversations we need to. She is a bit more stoic. Make that a LOT more. She hardly cries so when she does.....

Another trait we share is how much we love the other. So much so we cannot possibly even think of impeding the others happiness. Especially, as my wife knows the statistics all too well, what the odds are of finding me swinging on the end of a rope from a rafter in the garage.

This will be distressing for you both. The difficult open and honest conversations make it better in the long run. Made all the more difficult because you cannot say with absolute certitude what your plans for the future are.

Guess what? Seven years in for me I still have no absolute "Picture". All I know is I know where my true Joy(s) lie and work hard to keep everything that matters to me in some sort of balance. And... For about the first time in my life, actually caring and worrying about me.

I'm so happy for you!  :)

Please remember how this moment feels, and how you felt before and the unnecessary suffering it created, so when you lose confidence in yourself, you feel overwhelmed, you feel ashamed, and don't know where to go, you will be able to distinguish which direction is north.

I guess it's time to get rid of all the mirrors except one for the wife  :laugh: ;) :laugh:

But in all seriousness it's very good to hear you are finally understanding and accepting who you really are!

You want to take the trans test?  here it is. One question. Multiple choice. Am I transgender? 
A. definitely
B. probably
C. Maybe
D. Not likely
E. No
Any answer that isn't E, you are transgender lol
Keira said it better than I ever could. I agree very much with the way she is thinking about this. It is as if she took the words I was thinking and put them down so eloquently. I have not much else to offer other than-

Try not to stress yourself out about it. Whatever else happens from here on in is for you to improve your life. It may be nothing more than a simple acceptance of you being gender variant. How transgender might you be? There is only what makes you happy, or content, or even just being able to function to your personal best level. I am a better father after my acceptance of being transgender. I have been able to stay sober now for almost a year, with the help of my acceptance of being transgender. I am more level headed, my thinking is more clear. I have a calmness about myself I never had prior to my acceptance of being transgender. Crossdressing, shaving, tweezing, or longish nails alone does not give me that. My acceptance does. That which I do is just a way to express myself. I do not need it to thrive, but I did need acceptance to. I have no set goals to further feminize myself. I am not saying I will or won't. I do look forward to continuing my own path of acceptance, and all the good that comes from it.

Quote from: Gendermutt on May 08, 2016, 10:31:19 PM
I have been able to stay sober now for almost a year, with the help of my acceptance of being transgender. I am more level headed, my thinking is more clear. I have a calmness about myself I never had prior to my acceptance of being transgender. ....

Congratulations that first year can be a tough one... :icon_bunch:

Quote from: jayne01 on May 08, 2016, 05:47:25 PM
...thank you for persisting with me. I knew eventually the penny would drop!

Congrats on the breakthrough! I figured you'd get there eventually. Generally speaking, cis people usually don't sign up to a trans support site to question their gender, they certainly don't spend 13+ pages ruminating on the issue! ;)

Jayne, good for you! I look forward to hearing how things progress. You might want to read some about transgender, I'm working on "Whipping Girl" by Julia Serano, highly recommend it. The Google books preview includes about 100pp of excellent writing, I imagine the Amazon preview is also long enough to get into the meat of the subject.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 08, 2016, 05:47:25 PM
this reply from rejennyrated got me thinking.

Reading the above post got me wondering what would I really think if I was told I'm not trans. On the surface, that sounds like the perfect outcome. However, in reality it may not be an accurate diagnosis. The idea of not being trans and perhaps never speaking of it again actually made me feel like I would be destroying part of myself.

Glad that you are making progress now...

Sometimes one has to face the opposite to realise the truth.

Without giving away any trade secrets its actually a standard psychological technique... if you want a patient to realise how the feel about something you pretend to doubt it - a point to maybe recall when you feel your counsellor or shrink is being "difficult and disbelieving." Sometimes we are, and sometimes we just want you to realise what you really do feel.

I do hope you can now move forward. :-)

Quote from: Ms Grace on May 09, 2016, 04:49:54 AM
Congrats on the breakthrough! I figured you'd get there eventually. Generally speaking, cis people usually don't sign up to a trans support site to question their gender, they certainly don't spend 13+ pages ruminating on the issue! ;)

What can I say. Sometimes for someone who is supposed to be quite smart, I can be slow to catch on :)

Thanks SadieBlake. I will keep posting here as things progress. I hope I don't go backwards in my thinking and my level of acceptance. It's possible I will go backwards. As long as I make more forward progress than backwards, then I'm ok with that. I don't expect full acceptance to just happen like flicking a switch. I'll also check that book out.

Rejennyrated, thanks for your help. Interesting what you say about facing the opposite to realise the truth. My wife and I actually do that all the time about  very minor things, like choosing between a couple options for dinner. One of us randomly picks something and if the other person's first reaction is disappointment, then we go with the other choice. It's actually more of s silly game, but I suppose the concept is the same as what you are saying.

Hi Jayne

I have followed this thread for awhile now and its good to hear you have reached a level of acceptance. What you describe feeling sounds a bit like me 12 months ago. I would have done anything not to be trans...until I got brutally honest with myself and what I really wanted...deep down...in my secret heart. That is the place I knew I was trans long before I could verbalise it. All these years of being banged into male mode made it difficult to come to terms with these feelings but I am now just starting to really embrace them....and I might add with some real pleasure. I really hope things work out for you.

Liz K

Jayne, I can relate so much to how you you have been thinking, and feeling. Otherwise I wouldn't have followed this thread or posted on it frequently. I can almost guarantee you that you will have moments where you will be thinking wait a minute, maybe it was a case of pink fog, and I am not really so trans.... or that you will feel ok, so yeah, I have these moments, but Nothing I can't basically just set aside as I have always done. You will likely have moments now with a coming acceptance that hmm, maybe I should really go for this. I say coming. You have taken the very 1st step. It is a huge step, probably your biggest really, but it is ONLY the 1st step of countless. Not because you have to actually do this, or be that. I am only talking of your own acceptance.

3 and a half years into my own acceptance, and I still have WTF am I doing moments. Not many, not nearly as strong, but I still have them. Moments where my everyday life is going along and I am enjoying the moment. With my kids, my wife, on vacation.... In the beginning, it is hard to think of anything else. I remember after revealing to my wife, omg, I don't know if there was a waking moment for a month where trans wasn't running at least in the background somehow. But now, eh, life is life. Those moments I just mentioned. I often now just focus on what is in front of me again. It is when I come on these forums is when I am most deeply thinking about it all. Now, rather than always running rampant through my brain, I am allowing my being transgender to just allow me a more authentic version of myself.

Since I am not on a road to transition or planning on it, sure, during those times I mentioned, (and others) My male side is still taking the lead role in my life. My femininity is definitely a big part of my inner core. I find ways of getting her involved, if only in subtle ways sometimes. But that for me is what allows me to still be accepting of myself, to still be authentic.

What I am conveying with all of this, is that by being transgender, does not mean you have to uproot your entire life as it has been. I am not suggesting you do or don't. Through the internet, I know of someone who is identifying as TS, but is choosing to live her life as a male for her own personal reasons. I also know of someone who cross dresses to a full transformation, goes out in public frequently and has no female identity whatsoever. Male pronouns all the way, just a dude in a dress. I have a friend who at the time I was coming to terms with myself was just a closet cross dresser, like me at the time, not ready to consider herself trans. Now, she has transitioned fully, GRS, the whole 9 yards and is now a local leader and runs trans groups, and helps many in crisis. Go easy on yourself. Allow for all options. Be patient with yourself, and allow yourself to go with whatever you are feeling at any particular moment. I have many moments where it is just me, as I was born. I still enjoy those moments as much as when I am allowing my femininity to flow freely.

Quote from: Gendermutt on May 09, 2016, 08:05:55 PM
Jayne, I can relate so much to how you you have been thinking, and feeling. Otherwise I wouldn't have followed this thread or posted on it frequently.

It has really helped, so thank you.

Quote
I can almost guarantee you that you will have moments where you will be thinking wait a minute, maybe it was a case of pink fog, and I am not really so trans.... or that you will feel ok, so yeah, I have these moments, but Nothing I can't basically just set aside as I have always done. You will likely have moments now with a coming acceptance that hmm, maybe I should really go for this. I say coming. You have taken the very 1st step. It is a huge step, probably your biggest really, but it is ONLY the 1st step of countless. Not because you have to actually do this, or be that. I am only talking of your own acceptance.

I am almost certain that I will start doubting myself again. I have been through this "acceptance phase" a couple of times before. Each time it has lasted about a week followed by a big meltdown and then massive denial. It seems a little different this time. Time will tell. Hopefully each time I eliminate some more possibilities that I am not trans. I keep having a Sherlock Holmes quote come to mind:
"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."
Sooner or later I will have eliminated all impossibilities and I would be left with the truth. Hopefully I'm getting closer to that, because I am really starting to get tired of going round in circles :)

Quote
I remember after revealing to my wife, omg, I don't know if there was a waking moment for a month where trans wasn't running at least in the background somehow.

Just one month eh?? I have been the same, except I am up to around 10-11 months now. It is really quite exhausting and gets in the way of enjoying life. Thinking about one thing 24/7 for week after week, month after month cannot be good for you. Not that I am deliberately thinking about it. It is just there, invading my every conscious moment. I would love to find the OFF switch :)

Jayne

Not necessarily an off switch, more like just blending it into everyday life.

I think I'm starting to understand why I have such trouble with acceptance.  It is already starting to wear off after only a few days.

The problem is every time I start accepting myself as trans, I start to get this feeling of emptiness inside me, like something is missing. I don't like that feeling and don't know how to make it go away. It is easier to deal with the anger and frustration of trying to convince myself that I'm not trans at all. It is all a viscous cycle.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 10, 2016, 06:22:29 PM
I think I'm starting to understand why I have such trouble with acceptance.  It is already starting to wear off after only a few days.

The problem is every time I start accepting myself as trans, I start to get this feeling of emptiness inside me, like something is missing. I don't like that feeling and don't know how to make it go away. It is easier to deal with the anger and frustration of trying to convince myself that I'm not trans at all. It is all a viscous cycle.

For me it has always (as in nearly 50 years worth) of internalized transphobia, fear, Shame & Guilt. There just has to be SOME other answer... if not, I'll just beat it down once more. Hell, it worked before, right?

I think perhaps you are equating trans to taking things away from your life, rather than to integrating it into your life. Trans isn't a thing. It is simply a way of being. We all compromise in life in one way or another sure, Maybe some day you will feel you need a full gender re alignment. But at least for now, you should just be working on accepting gender variance. There are a lot of sub forums on this board that are not about making a full transition, but of living in balance and integrating your life. In time you will have a better understanding of what is best for you. Regardless if it is more of a transition or of balance, acceptance is the key to either being successful.

What is happening is that in the past, you've conflated your wanting to be female, with your not wanting to want to be female, so you can use that conflation to protect yourself from your conflation of accepting yourself as transgender and taking drastic action. Therefore, even though you've been able to remove the first conflation, you've never been able to remove the second conflation, and until you do, you will always return to the first conflation, or a different misconception in order to protect yourself.

In other words, you're overwhelmed, but you need to be brave, weigh your options, construct a new compromise and until you break your old habits, actively navigate yourself along a new path. This will take some willpower at first, but it's the best option for both you and your wife, as living with the first conflation is both caused by and produces a destructive self-hatred (internalized-transphobia), so have conviction, break your vicious cycle and stop suffering needlessly.

P.S. When I read your reply #279, I thought, "could this be evidence that you're one of the transgender individuals who are suffering as a result of their testosterone level?" I've read of many transgender individuals who claim lowering their testosterone in itself brings them pleasure and I've also read that long distance running lowers your testosterone level. Hormone levels aren't the only cause of the discomfort transgender individuals experience, but at least for some, it may be one of the causes.

Alternatively, it could have just been your endorphins and your exhaustion that facilitated your acceptance, but since we can't be sure, it's another reason why experimenting with low-dose HRT would be beneficial.

Long distance running can reduce T but only if you are training excessively for a really long time without any rest.

In my case it lowered it by 30% but it took over two years where I was running ten or more miles per day until I had entered a state of acute exhaustion.  Even then it was still well over 500.  It did reduce dysphoria a bit for a time but that was probably mostly from just crashing my endocrine system and multiple other injuries I trained through as much as anything else.

I don't think this is really a viable way to reduce dysphoria over the long term.


Sapere Aude

Quote from: Deborah on May 10, 2016, 09:49:52 PM
Long distance running can reduce T but only if you are training excessively for a really long time without any rest.

In my case it lowered it by 30% but it took over two years where I was running ten or more miles per day until I had entered a state of acute exhaustion.  Even then it was still well over 500.  It did reduce dysphoria a bit for a time but that was probably mostly from just crashing my endocrine system and multiple other injuries I trained through as much as anything else.

I don't think this is really a viable way to reduce dysphoria over the long term.


Sapere Aude

You're right. I read the beginning of Jayne's post again and she ran 10.5 kilometers (6.5 miles), which I'm sure she can run in under 2 hours. Testosterone is suppressed after over 2 hours of running, or 40 miles of running per week.

Also, I entirely agree that running isn't a viable way to reduce dysphoria over the long term.

Quote from: autumn08 on May 10, 2016, 10:27:17 PM...running isn't a viable way to reduce dysphoria over the long term.

Can you say M A R A T H O N ?   ;D

I run about an hour a day, and the endorphin high while running (particularly if I get my mind into 'girl mode') definitely gives me a break from the dysphoria, but it definitely can come roaring back :P

I'm not much of a runner. My wife is the runner, I sometimes join her to keep her company. If I run for more than about 1 hour 20 minutes I am ready to have a heart attack. Just the thought of running for 2 hours and 40 miles/week is making me tired. I rarely go for a run more than once or twice every two weeks.

2 hrs a day.... 40 miles, marathon???   That sounds like a lot of work lol. I usually just go for doing my nails and putting on a pair of heels.  ;)

I suppose if you girls like running so much, you could try this-

http://geniusbeauty.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/heels1.jpg

FWIW - I ran six marathons and countless half marathons over a six year period. Whilst this may have made me too exhausted to deal with my dysphoria, I still ended up transitioning.

Running has many benefits, but I think these are only short term as regards combating dysphoria.

I think I'm starting to see what is wrong with me. Well not what is wrong with me but more what I'm not. I don't think I'm trans. It doesn't add up. None of my therapists have ever suggested I am and I clearly am unable to accept it based on a feeling, so the problem has to lie somewhere else. Maybe I have some mental illness, actually now that I think of it, my parents told me that when I was 1 or 2 years old I managed to climb out of my pram and fall to the ground. Maybe I gave myself a brain injury.

You have all told me to just give HRT a try. There is no way I am going to self medicate. My therapists have never even hinted at trying HRT and I believe you need referrals saying you are eligible for hormone therapy. I am reluctant to even take a headache tablet unless I sense a raging migraine coming on (which is something I have had since childhood).

I am also seriously considering to stop seeing my therapists. It's been 8-9 months and I have made no progress. I think it is time for me to step aside to give someone else a chance at treatment. (There was at least a 3 month waiting list to get in to see my therapist, I've had more than my fair share of treatment).

I will also more than likely leave this forum. You are all really nice people who want to help total strangers that you have never met. I don't see any good reason for me to be here and continue wasting your time, and I am unable to offer any help to anyone else, so there is really no point to me being here.

Thank you all so much for trying to help me. That is incredibly kind of you. Sorry I have not been able to process what you have been trying to tell me. I can't make it compute in my head.

Take care of yourselves.

John

Well, best of luck, the door will be unlocked and the light will be on if you feel like heading back this way.....

IMO- you are trying to picture yourself in the deep end when you haven't even learned to swim yet. You haven't even put your toe in the water yet. The water looks inviting, the spray feels good but then whoa, how am I ever going to go there? how am I ever going to do that?  Well, like all pools or ponds or whatever, there is shallow water, and then deeper and deeper water. Not all who are in the pool or pond reside at the deepest part. And when we are born, we either need to enter the water, or we are born in the shallow end. (born meaning the birth of our understanding and acceptance of ourselves)

Maybe you are like many, who only need to be wading in the shallow end, or maybe go a little deeper, or maybe one day go to the deepest part. Transgender is a state of being, not a destination. Maybe the term is just too strong for you.... Maybe there are other things which you need to take care of in life before dealing with being transgender. Or maybe you really are not transgender. But, you came here for a reason. You didn't just lurk, you joined, and posted many times.

Just look at the membership of this place alone... and there are many others (not all as big) but some are pretty big too. Now, how many transgender people do you see when you are out in public? We blend in pretty well don't we. Maybe because we are just living our lives, being pretty much ordinary people.

Thanks Gendermutt. You have been very kind to me and have given me some very nice replies and have obviously taken the time to chose the right words to say. Thank you for that.

Unfortunately, I am having trouble adapting what I read here into real life. I don't know if that makes any sense. I have never met a trans person. Maybe that is part of the reason I cannot relate. As good as this website is, I still find the Internet very anonymous and detached from my reality.

More than likely, you have met a transgender person, you just didn't know it. Maybe they transitioned, maybe they never will come close. Being transgender does not make someone some  extraordinary person. Some will make drastic changes in front of the world. Some will make no changes at all, just living life and dealing with their internal issues as they see fit. The amount of cross dressers vs those who are or have transitioned is many many times higher. Or those who exist somewhere other than cisgender. Then there are those who are TS but do not transition, for  their own personal and unique reasons. There are those who live dead in the middle. Have you once ever seen someone and not been entirely certain as to whether they were male or female? Have you ever seen a very masculine woman, or a very effeminate man? Most will assume they are gay (and they sometimes are) and maybe they really are just on the masculine or feminine end of their gender. But maybe.....

I have met a very small number of people. So small in fact, that I don't know anybody outside of my work and family.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 14, 2016, 03:19:40 PM
Unfortunately, I am having trouble adapting what I read here into real life. I don't know if that makes any sense. I have never met a trans person. Maybe that is part of the reason I cannot relate. As good as this website is, I still find the Internet very anonymous and detached from my reality.

:)  You've met people who say they're trans here, so you've met at least a few that aren't intentionally blending 100% into the woodwork (thanks everyone btw, you've for sure helped me :), even if I mostly still just lurk).  I get that its hard to adapt people's advice here to how you actually live, I mean, for the most part for me, they're little changes, and sometimes don't feel like they're anything but a little niceness.  And yeah, I also don't like the feeling that trans is a medical issue that needs a medical answer like HRT.  Hormones can be out of whack, but...

You said that the last few times you accepted being trans, you felt empty inside and eventually changed your mind, would you mind sharing what that process was like?  Like, how did you accept being trans, what did you do to change (if at all), what made you feel empty, how did rejecting trans feel, and then what made you think you might be trans again?

Quote from: jayne01 on May 14, 2016, 01:15:41 PM
I think I'm starting to see what is wrong with me. Well not what is wrong with me but more what I'm not. I don't think I'm trans. It doesn't add up. None of my therapists have ever suggested I am and I clearly am unable to accept it based on a feeling, so the problem has to lie somewhere else. Maybe I have some mental illness, actually now that I think of it, my parents told me that when I was 1 or 2 years old I managed to climb out of my pram and fall to the ground. Maybe I gave myself a brain injury.

You have all told me to just give HRT a try. There is no way I am going to self medicate. My therapists have never even hinted at trying HRT and I believe you need referrals saying you are eligible for hormone therapy. I am reluctant to even take a headache tablet unless I sense a raging migraine coming on (which is something I have had since childhood).

I am also seriously considering to stop seeing my therapists. It's been 8-9 months and I have made no progress. I think it is time for me to step aside to give someone else a chance at treatment. (There was at least a 3 month waiting list to get in to see my therapist, I've had more than my fair share of treatment).

I will also more than likely leave this forum. You are all really nice people who want to help total strangers that you have never met. I don't see any good reason for me to be here and continue wasting your time, and I am unable to offer any help to anyone else, so there is really no point to me being here.

Thank you all so much for trying to help me. That is incredibly kind of you. Sorry I have not been able to process what you have been trying to tell me. I can't make it compute in my head.

Take care of yourselves.

John

The unspoken reason you're here is because you want to be the opposite sex, which means you're transgender (or whatever label you're comfortable with). There is nothing wrong with being transgender, but you use derogatory terms like, "mental illness," and "brain injury," to belittle this part of you and therefore you feel it is, "the problem," "what is wrong with me," and I remember at one point you called it the worst thing that could possibly happen to you.

These beliefs (internalized-transphobia) are the source of your pain, and they have placed you in a trap where you don't value yourself, so you can't value yourself. As a result, you think things like, "I don't see any good reason for me...," "continue wasting your time," "I am unable to offer any help to anyone," "there is really no point to me...," etc...

You have a greater potential for happiness and creating happiness in the world, but you can't discard some of the beliefs you attained in childhood. I understand that its overwhelming to drastically change your world view, but you don't have any other good options. Your romanticized vision of living as a content masculine male, which you're trying to run to now, never existed and never will exist. All that awaits you is more needless suffering.

Your fear is causing you to make a mountain out of a mole hill. You want to be female, so what?! Stop giving credence to ideas you know are wrong, and understand that being transgender makes you no more or less deserving of love than anyone. I know you will say that you already know this, but if you truly internalized it, your desire to alter your desire wouldn't exist.

P.S. I know I offered this in a prior post, but if you would like to talk about the external factors that shaped your low self-esteem, I would love to hear them. We may be able to make progress if we approach your internalized-transphobia obliquely.

Also, on the issue of low-dose HRT, you misread everyone if you thought we're recommending that you self-medicate. Ask one of your therapists for a referral to an endocrinologist, as you heard low-dose HRT might mitigate your gender dysphoria, and I'm sure you will see the sparkle in their eyes, because you would be taking action that circumvented your internalized-transphoriba, which they've been treating for 9 months.

Quote from: keira166 on May 14, 2016, 05:04:16 PM
And yeah, I also don't like the feeling that trans is a medical issue that needs a medical answer like HRT.  Hormones can be out of whack, but...

I agree that gender dysphoria isn't a problem in itself. Transgender individuals who pass report the same quality of life as cisgender individuals.

The reason I'm recommending low-dose HRT isn't to cure Jayne of her gender dsphoria, but because she can't circumvent her internalized-transphoria and incorporate her gender into her life. I'm also not taking HRT and I initially recommended to Jayne to first try more modest steps, but then she wrote that she had and that it didn't end well.

My hope is that the psychological changes, the legitimization of a prescription and the realization that the world isn't going to end that starting low-dose HRT may cause, will finally dislodge her internalized-transphobia.

Quote from: autumn08 on May 14, 2016, 06:15:10 PM
I agree that gender dysphoria isn't a problem in itself. Transgender individuals who pass report the same quality of life as cisgender individuals.

The reason I'm recommending low-dose HRT isn't to cure Jayne of her gender dsphoria, but because she can't circumvent her internalized-transphoria and incorporate her gender into her life. I'm also not taking HRT and I initially recommended to Jayne to first try more modest steps, but then she wrote that she had and that it didn't end well.

My hope is that the psychological changes, the legitimization of a prescription and the realization that the world isn't going to end that starting low-dose HRT may cause, will finally dislodge her internalized-transphobia.

Yeah, I understand, and I really don't know enough about those with HRT to see how it affects people fully, so I will leave it to others.  I was just trying to say I understand the reluctance, I, like Jayne, don't take headache medicine unless it gets bad.  It seems there are those that it helps immensely, and so if they would suggest, then awesome
:)

Quote from: keiraYou said that the last few times you accepted being trans, you felt empty inside and eventually changed your mind, would you mind sharing what that process was like?  Like, how did you accept being trans, what did you do to change (if at all), what made you feel empty, how did rejecting trans feel, and then what made you think you might be trans again?

That is the process of acceptance at work. And I remember feeling similar feelings at the very start. I remember a couple of drives into work, very shortly after I told my wife about my desires to dress. I remember thinking this is nuts, I need to stop this insanity. Nothing good will ever come of this. By the time I got home I was quickly changing into a dress lol.

Quote from: autumnThe unspoken reason you're here is because you want to be the opposite sex, which means you're transgender (or whatever label you're comfortable with). There is nothing wrong with being transgender, but you use derogatory terms like, "mental illness," and "brain injury," to belittle this part of you and therefore you feel it is, "the problem," "what is wrong with me," and I remember at one point you called it the worst thing that could possibly happen to you.

These beliefs (internalized-transphobia) are the source of your pain, and they have placed you in a trap where you don't value yourself, so you can't value yourself. As a result, you think things like, "I don't see any good reason for me...," "continue wasting your time," "I am unable to offer any help to anyone," "there is really no point to me...," etc...

You have a greater potential for happiness and creating happiness in the world, but you can't discard some of the beliefs you attained in childhood. I understand that its overwhelming to drastically change your world view, but you don't have any other good options. Your romanticized vision of living as a content masculine male, which you're trying to run to now, never existed and never will exist. All that awaits you is more needless suffering.

Your fear is causing you to make a mountain out of a mole hill. You want to be female, so what?! Stop giving credence to ideas you know are wrong, and understand that being transgender makes you no more or less deserving of love than anyone. I know you will say that you already know this, but if you truly internalized it, your desire to alter your desire wouldn't exist.

At this point, Jayne may not know if she truly wants to be the opposite sex or not. She has moments where she has stated she connects with or feels like she is. But they are not consistent. Believe me when I say this, coming from someone who is gender fluid, that can be insanely confusing, and I believe it is what caused me to put myself in my prison of denial for so long. Jayne is only looking at the end game of transgender to transition. And I am not saying this is not the path she should one day take. But when starting to merely accept her own gender variance and then looking immediately toward that end game is part of the problem I believe.

She has said things like "I don't know how to do make up" and I do not look female. Ta-da, dysphoria right there, if we Looked like what we felt, it wouldn't be so traumatic. But even then, what if Jayne isn't a candidate for the entire trip to female Ville?  That could be causing her as much of an issue as is the transphobia. I do believe she is dealing with some transphobia. All of the what is wrong with me statements are definitely proof of that. She is looking at transgender as a negative. She is also looking at it from a standpoint of a destination rather than a state of being.

Being within the transgender spectrum, there are any number of places we may end up. Often times, those who do end up TS and pursue transition start off a CDers, and for a time, are at least partly content. They do not see themselves as future transitioners. I have read many times on these forums of "I am just a CDer" and years later they are now either in the process or in some cases, completed the process. Had they just started their journey and thought their only option would be to go straight into transition they would likely be hitting the panic button just the same. But even those of us not transitioning, the process of acceptance is still not easy. I relate so much to what Jayne writes. I am not on the path to transition, which is why I think it is an option that Jayne too may not be a candidate. Not suggesting one way or another, other than it is possible that she is not. I felt so much the way she does now 4 years ago, I could have practically wrote the same words she is writing now.

Quote from: Gendermutt on May 14, 2016, 08:22:17 PM
At this point, Jayne may not know if she truly wants to be the opposite sex or not. She has moments where she has stated she connects with or feels like she is. But they are not consistent. Believe me when I say this, coming from someone who is gender fluid, that can be insanely confusing, and I believe it is what caused me to put myself in my prison of denial for so long. Jayne is only looking at the end game of transgender to transition. And I am not saying this is not the path she should one day take. But when starting to merely accept her own gender variance and then looking immediately toward that end game is part of the problem I believe.

She has said things like "I don't know how to do make up" and I do not look female. Ta-da, dysphoria right there, if we Looked like what we felt, it wouldn't be so traumatic. But even then, what if Jayne isn't a candidate for the entire trip to female Ville?  That could be causing her as much of an issue as is the transphobia. I do believe she is dealing with some transphobia. All of the what is wrong with me statements are definitely proof of that. She is looking at transgender as a negative. She is also looking at it from a standpoint of a destination rather than a state of being.

Being within the transgender spectrum, there are any number of places we may end up. Often times, those who do end up TS and pursue transition start off a CDers, and for a time, are at least partly content. They do not see themselves as future transitioners. I have read many times on these forums of "I am just a CDer" and years later they are now either in the process or in some cases, completed the process. Had they just started their journey and thought their only option would be to go straight into transition they would likely be hitting the panic button just the same. But even those of us not transitioning, the process of acceptance is still not easy. I relate so much to what Jayne writes. I am not on the path to transition, which is why I think it is an option that Jayne too may not be a candidate. Not suggesting one way or another, other than it is possible that she is not. I felt so much the way she does now 4 years ago, I could have practically wrote the same words she is writing now.

I don't know if given the option to be either sex and even if everyone couldn't care less which sex she is, Jayne would prefer to be a masculine female and keep some of her physically male attributes. I don't think so though, because she has expressed a desire to pass.

By saying she wants to be the opposite sex, I don't mean she necessarily wants to be the archetypal feminine female, just that she wants to cross over into the female region.

Also, you don't think I'm saying because Jayne wants to be female, she should immediately transition, right?

Quote from: keira166 on May 14, 2016, 05:04:16 PM
:)  You've met people who say they're trans here, so you've met at least a few that aren't intentionally blending 100% into the woodwork (thanks everyone btw, you've for sure helped me :), even if I mostly still just lurk).  I get that its hard to adapt people's advice here to how you actually live, I mean, for the most part for me, they're little changes, and sometimes don't feel like they're anything but a little niceness.  And yeah, I also don't like the feeling that trans is a medical issue that needs a medical answer like HRT.  Hormones can be out of whack, but...

Hi Keira,

When I say I have never met a trans person, I meant in real life. Also I don't dislike the fact that being trans is a medical issue that may need medication (HRT) for some people. I just don't think I am qualified to make a medical diagnosis and to then decide I need medication and what type of medication. That is not my area of expertise.

Quote
You said that the last few times you accepted being trans, you felt empty inside and eventually changed your mind, would you mind sharing what that process was like?  Like, how did you accept being trans, what did you do to change (if at all), what made you feel empty, how did rejecting trans feel, and then what made you think you might be trans again?

I don't really know how to answer that, but I'll give it try. I suppose the times I started accepting being trans it came about because I couldn't come up with any other explanation and from what people in here say, it seemed to kind of fit. But I would later come up with some other reason for why I feel the way I do and then being trans is not the only possibility so therefore I cannot be trans beyond doubt. I don't know if that is the answer you were looking for. I don't even know if that is the actual reason why I keep going back and forth. There is no real process, it just kind of happens.

John

The only reason you have never 'met' absolutely and for sure a trans person is simply because you refuse to. I lived in rural West Virginia when I hit (yet another) crises point in my life. For the first time ever, as in over 40 years of fighting, I sought out a support group while there. Ironic since I moved from just 5 miles outside of NYC or Trans-Central as my wife puts it. The nearest group was some 90 miles away. The next nearest ones added another hour plus to get to either Pittsburgh or DC.

No fairy princess is going to come along with her magic wand, nor therapist, and declare A, Z or some other letter between the two. But if they did, today, the letter is likely change in the future. Learning how to, and the actually seeing exacly who you are and finally coming to some level of acceptance is a process. A process where the results are constant evolving, both positive and negatively. Kind of like life in general

What do you mean I refuse to meet a trans person? It's not like people walk with a neon sign saying they are trans. I meant I have never met anyone who is trans. I'm not a social person in the best of times. Put me in a room with only one other person and unless that person speaks, or would be a very quiet room. I am not comfortable talking to strangers. I'm weird like that.

Jayne, would you consider having a chat with someone who is transgender at the Gender Centre? It's located in Annandale, Sydney. Heck, if you lived closer, I'd even put my hand up!

Quote from: jayne01 on May 14, 2016, 04:24:47 PM
I have met a very small number of people. So small in fact, that I don't know anybody outside of my work and family.

And that may be part of the problem. Perspective makes a difference. I think you may be mistaken to call it a mental illness though. Many fundamentalists types heap us in that category because they lack the knowledge and perspective to understand it. In time, you may experience a change in intensity of these feelings and it's possible you could get to a point where you can't deny it any more. In time you'll know either way.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 14, 2016, 01:15:41 PM
I think I'm starting to see what is wrong with me. Well not what is wrong with me but more what I'm not. I don't think I'm trans. It doesn't add up.
...
You have all told me to just give HRT a try. There is no way I am going to self medicate. My therapists have never even hinted at trying HRT and I believe you need referrals saying you are eligible for hormone therapy.
...
Thank you all so much for trying to help me. That is incredibly kind of you. Sorry I have not been able to process what you have been trying to tell me. I can't make it compute in my head.

Take care of yourselves.

John

OK you've now hit my threshold for a bit annoyed, yes you said less than a week before this post that you'd likely flip flop so I'm not all surprised.

The problem is you're -- I can only assume willfully -- misconstruing people's points.

NOONE HERE has suggested self medicating, you are misstating a position and then arguing against that, not what was actually suggested. This is called a straw man argument and it's a rhetorical trick to try to invalidate a statement.

I and others have given you solid reasons why your entire 'scientific / logical' approach doesn't work and you've yet to really acknowledge those posts. We've also explained (ad nauseam) why ultimately you have to be the one to decide how to proceed. This means deciding whether and how you are transgender as well as how you wish to address it. That does not mean self medicating, it means working with your therapist to decide on treatment and then an endocrinologist will work with you on a specific approach and follow up with testing to ensure the dosages are correct.

Please don't come back with your aircraft diagnosis comparison or a similar straw man (because I will surely stop reading this thread if you do). You've been told how it's done. Many folks who have posted have different specific points and they all point in the same general direction. Your therapist and your friends here know what has worked for many many trans people and your saying we're all wrong is comparable to someone telling you to diagnose an aircraft problem without using procedure or logic.

I feel I can relate to your experience because I had to wrestle with my own trans issues (which were compounded with depression and a history of family abuse that I needed to understand and get past). Like you, I was very tied to solving problems with logic, thinking had always been my ally.

What I learned was that to understand my emotions I had to sit with them, to be quiet enough to actually hear them. It's not easy work  and I don't blame your conscious, thinking mind for pushing that away.

I'm going to finish by saying I'm not so quick to label you as transgender as many others have been. You've written many times that you think you are but without as far as I can remember touching on many specifics. I know those answers for me; I'm uncomfortable with a lot of male identified behaviors and have learned to let go of many of them, I'm attracted to feminine-identified things and I love dressing in soft and colorful fabrics. It took a long time to accept some of these things and simply getting in touch with my emotions was what had to happen first.

The initial journey was about 3 years at which point I decided not to outwardly transition and to simply allow myself to continue to be in touch with my feelings and to settle into being female brained. 15 years later I've decided to start HRT and it feels like coming home.

I've noted that before in this thread, I hope you will learn to listen and progress more and maybe thrash around a bit less.

If I were you I would just ask my therapist directly at my next visit for their diagnosis of the root issue; trans, insanity, something else?  You have been seeing them long enough that they should have a pretty good idea.  That may at least validate in your mind what needs to be treated.  Then you can work with them to find an acceptable course of action.

It appears to me that much of your angst right now is uncertainty; that is understandable.  Getting past that should then allow you to figure out an effective plan to treat the dysphoria or other, as the case may be.

What I would not recommend is simply dropping therapy altogether right now.  This isn't going to get better until you can confront it directly and from your posts I don't think you will be able to do that alone.

Admitting to yourself you are trans DOES NOT commit you to any specific treatment.  And if your therapist rules out trans then you can deal effectively with whatever it is.

For whatever it's worth, and I know it isn't much :-), I am not convinced one way or the other if you are trans or not.  However, given your description of what you are going through right now it sure sounds like the same thing many of us have gone through in the past.

And to reiterate what others have said, nobody is recommending self medication.  Even if you did decide to take that route it would not solve your uncertainty.

Also you should stop depreciating yourself for wasting people's time here because you are not doing that at all.  The exact opposite in fact as it allows somebody else to be of some help in getting through this.


Sapere Aude

Ok, I think I am starting to hit some nerves here and I am misunderstanding and I am also being misunderstood. I will try to clarify as best I can.

Quote from: Gertrude on May 15, 2016, 11:53:37 AM
And that may be part of the problem. Perspective makes a difference. I think you may be mistaken to call it a mental illness though. Many fundamentalists types heap us in that category because they lack the knowledge and perspective to understand it. In time, you may experience a change in intensity of these feelings and it's possible you could get to a point where you can't deny it any more. In time you'll know either way.

I hope nobody thinks I am suggesting that being trans is having a mental illness. When I say I think I may have a mental illness I mean that instead of being trans I may have a mental illness, as an alternative, not the same thing.

Quote from: SadieBlake on May 15, 2016, 01:52:27 PM
The problem is you're -- I can only assume willfully -- misconstruing people's points.

That is not true.

Quote
What I learned was that to understand my emotions I had to sit with them, to be quiet enough to actually hear them. It's not easy work  and I don't blame your conscious, thinking mind for pushing that away.

That is easier said than done. I don't really have many emotions. And the emotions I do have don't make any sense to me. My therapist asked me how do I decide what I want to eat. My answer was that I usually go for what is quickest, easiest most practical at the time. She asked if I ever decide based on what I might "feel" like eating. I answered "no", that makes no sense. Food is something you eat to stay alive. It is a necessary function. That surprised her. I have no real connection with emotions, they are not logical.

Quote from: Deborah on May 15, 2016, 02:27:10 PM
If I were you I would just ask my therapist directly at my next visit for their diagnosis of the root issue; trans, insanity, something else?  You have been seeing them long enough that they should have a pretty good idea.  That may at least validate in your mind what needs to be treated.  Then you can work with them to find an acceptable course of action.

I have done exactly that. More than once. I never get a real answer. It is always a roundabout answer that puts it all back on me. That is why I am so frustrated. What is the point of having professionals if all they do is ask you "what do you think?" or "I cannot answer that, only you can answer that". Why have I spent thousands of dollars trying to get help only to be told that I need to answer my own questions?

Quote
It appears to me that much of your angst right now is uncertainty; that is understandable.  Getting past that should then allow you to figure out an effective plan to treat the dysphoria or other, as the case may be.

What I would not recommend is simply dropping therapy altogether right now.  This isn't going to get better until you can confront it directly and from your posts I don't think you will be able to do that alone.

Admitting to yourself you are trans DOES NOT commit you to any specific treatment.  And if your therapist rules out trans then you can deal effectively with whatever it is.

For whatever it's worth, and I know it isn't much :-), I am not convinced one way or the other if you are trans or not.  However, given your description of what you are going through right now it sure sounds like the same thing many of us have gone through in the past.

Sapere Aude

That is what I have been trying to say. I have this uncertainty and spending all these months and money on therapy, I am no closer to an answer than when I started.

I have asked many times for some kind of test. I get it, no such test exists. My therapist used an example that there are many medical conditions that cannot be tested, such as MS. I understand that, but I don't go to the doctor and say "hey doc, I believe I have MS and I would like a referral for medication". What I do is tell the doctor I have xyz symptoms and the doctor then says that "there is no definitive test, but in my expert opinion I believe that you may have MS and I would recommend trying x medication at y dose and see if that helps, then we will go from there". Why can't the same process be applied for trans? My therapist has met hundreds of trans people, it's what she does, I have never met one. I have no reference point. It seems the only function therapists serve is to provide the necessary references to an endo and to help you adapt/blend/transition (whatever your path may be). They don't diagnose anything. Does what I am trying to say make any sense?

Yes, it makes sense.  All therapists are not like that, unwilling to make a diagnosis.  I agree with you that at some point they should be able to tell you something with a reasonable degree of certainty.


Sapere Aude

Quote from: Deborah on May 15, 2016, 03:20:19 PM
Yes, it makes sense.  All therapists are not like that, unwilling to make a diagnosis.  I agree with you that at some point they should be able to tell you something with a reasonable degree of certainty.


Sapere Aude

I am up to my 4th therapist. The first one I understand not wanting to diagnose. He has no trans experience and was just temporary until my turn came up in the waiting list. The others have extensive trans experience, two of them, that is all they do and have come highly recommended, both from other psychologists and members on this forum who have used them. That is why I think the problem is me and not the therapist. If I was trans then this would all be right up their ally, but if I'm not trans then this probably lies outside their area of expertise. Do I look for yet another therapist? I'm running out of ideas.

Also, I would like to apologise if I have not responded to all replies. Sometimes i get a few replies at once and I start responding while the other person is online, so after a few back and forth replies I lose track of which replies I have responded to. I don't intentionally ignore anybody.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 15, 2016, 08:08:33 AM
What do you mean I refuse to meet a trans person? It's not like people walk with a neon sign saying they are trans. I meant I have never met anyone who is trans. I'm not a social person in the best of times. Put me in a room with only one other person and unless that person speaks, or would be a very quiet room. I am not comfortable talking to strangers. I'm weird like that.

If you want real answers you need to hear, to see, and perhaps eventually talk to people who may, or may not, have shared experiences or feelings. You are not going to learn anything from turning the spigot to your brain in a therapist's office.

You refuse to associate with trans people beyond "The Anonymity" the internet offers you from the safe confines of a desk in a dark corner of your basement. At one time I was very much like you not wanting to be around people. Today, I know the reason why.

You don't want to be trans. You are afraid of catching 'Trans germs". You believe you have to be "All In" or not. You don't want to hear feelings from people who've been there pouring the hearts out and seeing the same pained look in their faces that you see in the mirror.

If you truely wanted to see many of the shapes and flavors of trans people, you'd find a support group and test drive a meeting or two or three. Don't stop with just one because you'll just be wasting your time and the empathy of others wanting to help you in some way

I am an engineer and a damn good one at that. I'm the guy who can fix anything. (Except me) I also had a long stint at being a mechanic. Throw in electrical work, plumbing, carpentry, sheet metal, machinist. They all follow very neat orderly rules. I think the reason techie types are well represented in the trans population is precisely because we are seeking out order. Some sort of logic as to why, or why not.

After a good 40+ years of fooling myself, I learned better. Among my daily affirmations, especially if a WTF am I doing ??? meltdown starts creeping up is:

"I Know What Does Not Work"

Quote from: JoanneB on May 15, 2016, 03:35:08 PM
If you want real answers you need to hear, to see, and perhaps eventually talk to people who may, or may not, have shared experiences or feelings. You are not going to learn anything from turning the spigot to your brain in a therapist's office.

You refuse to associate with trans people beyond "The Anonymity" the internet offers you from the safe confines of a desk in a dark corner of your basement. At one time I was very much like you not wanting to be around people. Today, I know the reason why.

You don't want to be trans. You are afraid of catching 'Trans germs". You believe you have to be "All In" or not. You don't want to hear feelings from people who've been there pouring the hearts out and seeing the same pained look in their faces that you see in the mirror.

If you truely wanted to see many of the shapes and flavors of trans people, you'd find a support group and test drive a meeting or two or three. Don't stop with just one because you'll just be wasting your time and the empathy of others wanting to help you in some way

I am an engineer and a damn good one at that. I'm the guy who can fix anything. (Except me) I also had a long stint at being a mechanic. Throw in electrical work, plumbing, carpentry, sheet metal, machinist. They all follow very neat orderly rules. I think the reason techie types are well represented in the trans population is precisely because we are seeking out order. Some sort of logic as to why, or why not.

After a good 40+ years of fooling myself, I learned better. Among my daily affirmations, especially if a WTF am I doing ??? meltdown starts creeping up is:

"I Know What Does Not Work"

Aren't trans support groups reserved for trans people?

Quote from: jayne01 on May 15, 2016, 03:53:32 PM
Aren't trans support groups reserved for trans people?

And people that think they might be. I'm having a difficult time understanding your reticence. Do you have cultural, religious or familial issues where being trans would cause cognitive dissonance?  It seems like you're an answer looking for the right question.

Quote from: Gertrude on May 15, 2016, 03:58:09 PM

And people that think they might be. I'm having a difficult time understanding your reticence. Do you have cultural, religious or familial issues where being trans would cause cognitive dissonance?  It seems like you're an answer looking for the right question.

I'm not sure I understand what you just said. I'm not religious. I'm Australian so there is no cultural issue. My parents think homosexuals are somehow sick in the head and I don't think they even know the word transgender. I don't share their beliefs at all and I get quite angry at them if they make any comments that are derogatory, but maybe when the question is aimed at me some of their views become apparent. I don't know.

You don't need to reply to every post, my concern is that you've been given a lot of solid ideas why you need to try something new and I see you repeating the same complaints which suggests not so much that you don't get the message as you're not able to do anything about it, I'm asking you to do something about it. If that includes telling your therapist that you think you are trans and you want to discuss hrt or whatever then do that. I spent years dressing femme in private and it helps, it makes me feel good. Now the time for hrt has come and that's helping more. Or meet some people (yes lgbtQ includes 'questioning').

I get not easy and I can promise it won't get easier, at least not at first. Do you take no pleasure in doing your work well? That is emotion. You could read Robert Pirsig's  "Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance'.

You thinking you have no emotion suggests to me you very much need to get in touch with them but it's your call. That's the point, ultimately it's your call.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 15, 2016, 04:09:10 PM
I'm not sure I understand what you just said. I'm not religious. I'm Australian so there is no cultural issue. My parents think homosexuals are somehow sick in the head and I don't think they even know the word transgender. I don't share their beliefs at all and I get quite angry at them if they make any comments that are derogatory, but maybe when the question is aimed at me some of their views become apparent. I don't know.

My point is that if you come from a family or culture that has anachronistic ideas about lgbt issues, it may affect how you would feel about yourself or react to finding out about yourself being in the lgbt spectrum. Shame is a motivator.

Quote from: Gertrude on May 15, 2016, 04:33:40 PM
My point is that if you come from a family or culture that has anachronistic ideas about lgbt issues, it may affect how you would feel about yourself or react to finding out about yourself being in the lgbt spectrum. Shame is a motivator.

Ok. Sorry, I had to consult a dictionary, you use many words that I don't understand.

I wish I had a bit more time tonight. But I will say this, you are attempting to get counselors to diagnose you. They don't do that. They work with you (the good ones) to help you through what you have. They can't help you if you are fighting being transgender. They will be of no help at all. Only a waste of money, so until you stop fighting yourself, stop going to them.

Stop thinking that if you do accept transgender, that hormone therapy is a must. If there is one thing I do see a lot of on this site that I am not always in agreement with, is the suggestion of HRT so easily, or cavalier perhaps. HRT is serious business. I do not believe that someone who is struggling to accept themselves should be doing it. It should be  for people who are comfortable with themselves and have a fairly good idea of what path they are on. There may be a day where you do decide to use HRT, but as someone in an above post had stated, that they took 3 years of just acceptance. No outward transition, just 3 years to come to a point of comfort of themselves, and then did not start HRT for another 15 I believe. Stop putting the cart before the horse.

Transgender is a state of being. Nothing more, nothing less. Nothing that any of us do is considered a standard. It is all our own unique individual path and choices we make. I have explained  many different directions or choices there are, and I am sure I haven't come close to mentioning all of them, because they are basically as unlimited as life itself is. I know of someone who has done a complete social transition. lives 24/7/365 female, but has chosen to do nothing to alter their physical body. No surgery of any kind, no HRT. Not a typical path, but it is theirs. STOP putting the cart before the horse.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 15, 2016, 03:53:32 PM
Aren't trans support groups reserved for trans people?

From my understanding of other groups in addition to knowing very well after 7 years how my group operates many "TG" support groups are open to those who are questioning. Hell! NO BODY wants to be trans. But.... Is that really who I am???? Oh F....! 

There are TG umbrella organizations and groups that if you are say, not a fully hetero cross-dresser and are doing nothing medically nor thinking about it towards transitioning you can come. Seems like most TS (as in looking to medically transition) groups will welcome anyone as long as you are not "A ->-bleeped-<-". Hence, often a need for some sort of pre-screening and not an open meeting.

(Trigger warnings)






I have an emotionally abusive father, and a mother who is a recovering addict. They live in a world of codependency. The dissonance between the obligation and expectation of me growing up, my studies, and what I wanted to do was so large that it took me to crisis point.

Looking back now, it was driven by not fitting what was expected of a man. Yes, I could do maths, but I didn't enjoy it. I could do science too, but I was only interested in biological science, and that got dropped because it didn't lead to a worthwhile career, and "all worthwhile careers" were "manly": engineering, or a pure physical science - at a push computing (yes this was in the dark ages)...

My late childhood was a mess! as a result, I spent 18 months on antidepressants, deliberately went non-contact and that probably saved my life. At the time it was do or die.

What I had learned was the abusive triumvirate: Fear, Obligation and Guilt.

Applying these principles :

We feel obliged (thanks to our birth gender), to fit a gender expectation.

We are frightened, when we discover that we don't.

We feel guilty when we do things that are not expected by our gender expectations, and become frightened, because we have not met our gender obligation, and the spiral continues.

A diagnosis would grant you permission to be who you feel you are, without guilt. This would break the cycle, as you would have been relieved of the burden of your cultural obligation (shame).

As the  diagnosis would be from a trusted person in authority, (a professional gate keeper of what is "normal" aka a psychologist), it could be more acceptable to local society as a result, but YMWV with that.

The support groups I have been to, have been happy that I was respectful, interested, and wanted to learn... And I met some lovely people along the way.



Sno

Quote from: Gendermutt on May 15, 2016, 05:52:53 PM
If there is one thing I do see a lot of on this site that I am not always in agreement with, is the suggestion of HRT so easily, or cavalier perhaps.

You must understand, this isn't the first "Jayne accepts herself as transgender and then regresses thread." 4 therapists and many members on this forum have tried to convince Jayne to incorporate her gender into her life, without low-dose HRT, and have repeatedly rebutted everyone of her protests.

I think we're making progress because I haven't recently heard Jayne use the "I don't want to harm anyone argument," or the "I don't want to be transgender so I'm not transgender argument," or the machine comparison, or some of the other arguments, but she still can't dislodge her internalized-transphobia. She is still trying to legitimize her gender dysphoria, when the problem is that she feels it needs legitimization.

If Jayne hadn't left this forum before, wasn't contemplating leaving now, wasn't contemplating stopping therapy, and I could see an inflection point on the horizon, then I wouldn't be so cavalier in recommending low-dose HRT. I think the logic of forum members and her therapists alone though, may just lead to an indefinite hiatus, so while I've acknowledged that trying low-dose HRT is putting the cart before the horse, like it has for many others, it may coerce the horse to finally move forward.

Not taking a definitive step may be more risky than taking a definitive step. Jayne hasn't shown an ability to step back from this issue, and has shown a tendency for suicidal ideation. Something is eventually going to give, so I want her to begin to build the ability to circumvent her internalized-transphobia and accomplish something she can't easily step away from and which may create a feeling of legitimacy. 

A support group, of course, would be a more prudent option than low-dose HRT and it seems that Jayne might finally be opening up to that idea. Many, myself included, have tried to convince her to join a support group, and maybe now that she has made some progress, she will. Any solution though, I think first requires more influencing factors than she is currently receiving, be it low-dose HRT, a support group, or something else.

I'm late to joining this thread, but you stated a few things I really want to address.

Quote from: Sno on May 15, 2016, 06:22:59 PM
(Trigger warnings)
What I had learned was the abusive triumvirate: Fear, Obligation and Guilt.

Applying these principles :

We feel obliged (thanks to our birth gender), to fit a gender expectation.

We are frightened, when we discover that we don't.

We feel guilty when we do things that are not expected by our gender expectations, and become frightened, because we have not met our gender obligation, and the spiral continues.

A diagnosis would grant you permission to be who you feel you are, without guilt. This would break the cycle, as you would have been relieved of the burden of your cultural obligation (shame).

Obligation, Fear and Guilt are part of the abusive pattern as much as they are a part of being trans or gender non-conforming. They are three methods of asserting control over a person. Diagnosis doesn't necessarily break this cycle, we are the only people who can free ourselves from the guilt we accumulate and hang onto. It may require the guidance of a therapist to do it, but it's our internal struggle, we don't need someone else's permission.

It's okay to not be perfect. No one is normal. There's no way to measure or judge any of those two concepts. The pressure from the expectations placed on us, distracts us from the really important things. Permit yourself to be unique, different, interesting. Being trans doesn't keep us from being ordinary/normal/(whatever qualitative word you want to use). Being trans just means our life is complicated and different from the expectations of our family, friends and partners.

We don't really have to meet those old and gendered expectations. All we have to do is live our lives, hopefully finding a way to be happy in a way that fulfills us. We can't and shouldn't sacrifice our happiness for fear of rocking boats or upsetting the people that matter to us.

Anyway, I know this is somewhat preachy, and I apologize for that, but I hope it helps. I hope you find the path to your happiness. Take care [emoji2]

Please don't refer to me as she or her. It seems very weird and I have to read what is written more than once before I realise you are talking about me. I chose the name Jayne as my username because it is anonymous like Jayne Doe or John Doe. My real name is John, so I went with Jayne. I might change my username someday. I'm not very good at coming up with names. My music playlists on my iPod are named john01, john02, etc... Naming things is not my thing.

I'm happy for you to refer to me as John, him, he, etc.

Thanks.

We are all trying John. Just trying to help you to accept whatever it is that brought you to this site. My suggestions are to not think long term or of serious actions just yet. I think that overwhelms you. Although I do get what autumn is saying about low dose HRT, it might make you feel a little more comfortable, without serious or permanent effects, most of which those who take the bigger doses and t blockers actually take them for, along with emotional peace and stability.

I think even the term transgender may be throwing you a bit. You do have some sort of gender variance, or you wouldn't have looked for a site or become a member of one. And Most of us understand how hard it is to accept this. Most of us have stories of taking many years to really come to terms with it. So we do understand

I suggest taking it easy on yourself. Accept yourself 1st before thinking about what course of action you may end up taking, if any. Some are happy to just occasionally dress. Some just add some femininity to their everyday lives, and some go further, and or live their lives as female  and make whatever changes to accommodate that. Maybe you just need to take a little break from it all. Or just hang out in other areas of the forum that are not so into major changes of lifestyle or actions like HRT. There is non binary, crossdressing.... A little less drastic perhaps, and may not feel so overwhelming. Many CDers do identify as male. On forums though they do often use female pronouns, but not all do. Just some thoughts.

Quote from: Gendermutt on May 16, 2016, 03:46:41 PM

I think even the term transgender may be throwing you a bit. You do have some sort of gender variance, or you wouldn't have looked for a site or become a member of one. And Most of us understand how hard it is to accept this. Most of us have stories of taking many years to really come to terms with it. So we do understand

I suggest taking it easy on yourself. Accept yourself 1st before thinking about what course of action you may end up taking, if any. Some are happy to just occasionally dress. Some just add some femininity to their everyday lives, and some go further, and or live their lives as female  and make whatever changes to accommodate that. Maybe you just need to take a little break from it all. Or just hang out in other areas of the forum that are not so into major changes of lifestyle or actions like HRT. There is non binary, crossdressing.... A little less drastic perhaps, and may not feel so overwhelming. Many CDers do identify as male. On forums though they do often use female pronouns, but not all do. Just some thoughts.

I really do appreciate everything here is trying to do for me. This time last year I didn't even know what the word transgender was. I used to think transgender, transsexual, ->-bleeped-<- were all the same thing and were all a lifestyle choice that some people made. I now know better, but it is still very hard for me to accept that I fit in under the trans umbrella. I suppose technically, if trans includes everything from cis male to cis female and everything in between, then the whole planet could be identified as trans. I'll try and keep it simple for my overloaded brain and refer to trans as anyone that is not cis. I'm getting sidetracked again...

You say most have stories of taking many years to come to terms with it. It has been less than a year for me and my brain is in overdrive trying to process all this new (to me) knowledge. I know you have all been very patient with me, please try and keep that patience while I catch up.

As far as crossdressing goes, that does nothing for me. It actually makes me feel worse about myself. For me, it is like putting on a costume for a costume party or something along those lines. It feels very fake and does not seem to serve any purpose. I speak only for me, I know it means different things to different people. I think I would have even more trouble accepting myself as a crossdressing man than a trans woman.

I don't always have these dysphoria feelings. I often feel perfectly fine being me and even the thought of being feminine in the slightest feels very wrong. Maybe that is a life of denial, shame, fear, etc taking over and giving me a false sense of feeling right being male, or maybe it is true that I am all male and there is something else going on. I honestly don't know. I try to answer that question every day and it is confusing the hell out of me. I try reading other people's stories to see if I can relate to them to help me find the answer, but I cannot. Every story I have read, there is always some overwhelming desire to be feminine in some way, usually from a young age. Many have not done anything until later life, but there always seems to be some kind of tie to their childhood where they had a sense that something wasn't quite right. I have not been able to find that childhood link with me. I don't remember much of my childhood, which is a possible reason why I also don't remember any gender issues from my childhood. My memory is mostly blank with snippets here and there which I can recall, but for the most part it is blank.

How many frequent flyer miles am I getting for this thread John??  lol. BTW, feel free to message me too if you have any particular questions about my acceptance of myself or whatever. But I will post messages here on the public forum because I so entirely relate to what you are going through.  So much so. It is like listening to a recording of myself 5 years ago. My hope is there may be someone else in a similar situation you are feeling, and that I felt for such a long time that may be reading this.

I cannot even begin to describe the circus that used to go through my brain. The denial, the self loathing. The beliefs I really had about what I liked or didn't like. Now I am saying this only of myself.... but I used to HATE the feeling of long nails. I used to clip mine very short, couldn't stand them even coming close to even with the tips of my fingers. And now, I let mine grow a little past the tips. Why did I hate the feeling so much? Because I wanted to hate the feeling. Along with going anywhere near anything feminine whatsoever. Salons, women's clothing sections, girly movies. You name it. I was transphobic to say the least. Because my crazy brain thought it I stayed away from anything feminine, it would make me not want it. I literally kept telling myself over and over and  over again that I did not like something, and I believed it too. Really believed it.

Transgender is a huge spectrum. But the word lately is now applying more for those who are more completely internally opposite their birth gender. Which is why I am using the word gender variance a lot lately. Not for me necessarily, but it is just another term. A more encompassing term. Non binary is part of the spectrum officially, but those who are NB really do not have an identity that is female, not entirely. They may be feminine, or just not able to relate to their gender specifically.

I personally am gender fluid. I have male identity as well as female identity. CDing works for me as an outlet. HRT is not for me. Transition is not for me. I am never saying there won't be a day when it is. I say this because 5 years ago I was not anywhere on the TG map. Yet here I am. I know how I feel now, and that is all I can go by.

That is why I am saying to not put the cart before the horse. I know of CDers who are in their late 70's and have been CDing without any transition HRT or anything for nearly 70 years. They never go anywhere with it. It just is for them and it works. There are those who are just dead in the middle androgynous. NB or whatever, and they never pick a side, because for them there isn't a side to pick. There are those like me who are fluid and have been for many decades, and that is where it is. They have found their gender equilibrium so to speak. I am just trying to let you know how vast it all is, and that you may end up anywhere in all of it.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 17, 2016, 02:50:31 PM
I don't always have these dysphoria feelings. I often feel perfectly fine being me and even the thought of being feminine in the slightest feels very wrong. Maybe that is a life of denial, shame, fear, etc taking over and giving me a false sense of feeling right being male, or maybe it is true that I am all male and there is something else going on. I honestly don't know. I try to answer that question every day and it is confusing the hell out of me.

By asking this question, you're still viewing gender dysphoria as a symptom of something that is wrong with you, rather than a set of your innate affinities. Just like I have affinity to be female, I also have an affinity for music, and just because I don't constantly think about music and sometimes would rather not listen to music, doesn't mean I don't have an affinity for music.

Also, yeah, its your internalized-transphobia that is causing you to sometimes feel being male is right. If you do one day transition, maybe you'll want to keep some of your male attributes, because maybe a part of you does enjoy feeling male, but you definitely desire to cross through the female threshold.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 17, 2016, 02:50:31 PM
I try reading other people's stories to see if I can relate to them to help me find the answer, but I cannot. Every story I have read, there is always some overwhelming desire to be feminine in some way, usually from a young age. Many have not done anything until later life, but there always seems to be some kind of tie to their childhood where they had a sense that something wasn't quite right. I have not been able to find that childhood link with me. I don't remember much of my childhood, which is a possible reason why I also don't remember any gender issues from my childhood. My memory is mostly blank with snippets here and there which I can recall, but for the most part it is blank.

Just like you're suppressing your feminine desires now, I would wager you also suppressed them in childhood. Regardless of if you did or didn't though, there are innumerable factors that shape our experience of gender dysphoria, so why do you feel your narrative needs to fit someone else's narrative?

Again, you're trying to make a diagnosis, when its your attempt to diagnose yourself that is causing your pain. Honor yourself and when you want to be feminine, be feminine, and when you don't want to be feminine, don't. You must realize that you'll eventually need to build this ability, if you're to get out of this rut.


P.S. I can see you're making progress, so I think this forum is valuable to you, but I also worry that you're unintentionally using it as a way to vent your pain, so you don't need to act upon your pain in the external world. You're at a roadblock and I don't think your current course of action is enough to break through it.

Just circling around the roadblock isn't a tenable course of action, as you'll eventually run out of fuel, and then who knows where you'll end up. Therefore, in order increase the probability that you end up on a relatively auspicious path, you need to add more positive influencing factors, so at the very minimum, follow through on joining a support group. 

Quote from: jayne01 on May 17, 2016, 02:50:31 PM


As far as crossdressing goes, that does nothing for me. It actually makes me feel worse about myself. For me, it is like putting on a costume for a costume party or something along those lines. It feels very fake and does not seem to serve any purpose. I speak only for me, I know it means different things to different people. I think I would have even more trouble accepting myself as a crossdressing man than a trans woman.

I don't always have these dysphoria feelings. I often feel perfectly fine being me and even the thought of being feminine in the slightest feels very wrong. Maybe that is a life of denial, shame, fear, etc taking over and giving me a false sense of feeling right being male, or maybe it is true that I am all male and there is something else going on. I honestly don't know. I try to answer that question every day and it is confusing the hell out of me. I try reading other people's stories to see if I can relate to them to help me find the answer, but I cannot. Every story I have read, there is always some overwhelming desire to be feminine in some way, usually from a young age. Many have not done anything until later life, but there always seems to be some kind of tie to their childhood where they had a sense that something wasn't quite right. I have not been able to find that childhood link with me. I don't remember much of my childhood, which is a possible reason why I also don't remember any gender issues from my childhood. My memory is mostly blank with snippets here and there which I can recall, but for the most part it is blank.

Jayne seriously ;) I am sure you plucked that thought about crossdressing straight out of my subconscious...One of the very many reasons I began to look harder and harder at myself in early 2000 was because of this reason...I was a crossdresser and nothing else...so why did crossdressing leave me so upset? It kind of felt like playing at something, wearing a wig felt like I was a "bit player" in someones comedy sketch..but I couldn't control the strong need to dress this way...but in the end the issue was fairly simple...I didn't want to look like a woman I wanted to be a woman. Simple answer but a lifetime to get there.

I think memories from younger days can be tricky, if you had asked me when I was 10 I don't know that I could have articulated it any other way than, I think I want to be a girl but you would have had to have pulled my nails out to get me to say it because at this point in my life I began to realise very slowly that I felt differently about things than my brothers...all the other stuff I remember is only significant to me because of particularly strong emotions that went with it. As a youngster of 5 or 6 I didn't have the capacity to really understand how or what I was feeling and had no reason to think it wasn't normal to feel this way...everyone felt this way didn't they??? Looking back I can see it now but then.... Puberty is the time in my life when I gained the real sense of who I was, as opposed to who I was supposed to be. Its easy to look back at childhood and interpret things in a certain way but at the end of the day, what does any of that have to do with how you feel now? Would having those memories change how you feel now or give how you feel validation?

Since making the decision to go forward with transition all those questions have become less important to me and questions about my future are more prevalent. It was my Psychologist who put it to me and asked the question, what difference any of the childhood memories really made to how I was feeling now. I had a number of things that I couldn't quite get a hold of from my childhood but they could easily have had no real significance, other than what I was putting on it now. I didn't want to hear this because I thought I needed those memories to support/validate why I was Trans...as it is I do have early memories that relate to being a girl and my desire...many of them I can't even put an age on and are not particularly clear. (Too many years of booze and drugs)

I hope some of that helps

Liz K

Quote from: jayne01 on May 17, 2016, 02:50:31 PM
...Every story I have read, there is always some overwhelming desire to be feminine in some way, usually from a young age. Many have not done anything until later life, but there always seems to be some kind of tie to their childhood where they had a sense that something wasn't quite right....

Chicken & Egg, Which came first

Retrospectively speaking I have no doubt the a majority eventually came to recognize events of the past and their repression. On woman in my group swears she had zip, zilch, nada, zero idea till some time in her 30's when her SO while role playing got her into a dress. Who am I to judge?

While others, such as me, knew full well they just wanted to be "Normal". Yet..... The prime directive was always "Normal", though some pushing the envelope may have taken place. Sometimes with disastrous results. Suppress and move on

Quote from: autumn08 on May 17, 2016, 04:34:25 PM
By asking this question, you're still viewing gender dysphoria as a symptom of something that is wrong with you...

Not necessarily wrong with me, but it is certainly a symptom of something.....

Quote
...so why do you feel your narrative needs to fit someone else's narrative?

It will never fit someone else's narrative. We are all different. I am looking for common ground. We are all different, but not entirely 100% different. There has to be some kind of overlapping common experience that would place us in one group or another. It is that commonality I am trying to find.

Quote
...when you want to be feminine, be feminine, and when you don't want to be feminine, don't...

How is that even possible? HRT takes years to work. How can you just switch back and forth between being feminine and masculine? There is not one single feminine feature about me. I am hairy, have a gigantic Neanderthal looking head, hairy, have a deep voice and act just like any other guy. No matter how drunk or high on drugs you may be, you will never mistake me as feminine. So how can one just switch between feminine and not feminine without any help from HRT/surgery, which makes the switching back and forth part kind of impossible.

Quote from: ElizabethK on May 17, 2016, 07:10:57 PM
...Its easy to look back at childhood and interpret things in a certain way but at the end of the day, what does any of that have to do with how you feel now? Would having those memories change how you feel now or give how you feel validation?...

Yes, it would give me some kind of validation. While these feelings seem to exist now, if I could link them back to my childhood I would be able to see that this has been a lifelong thing and it would make more sense to me. If being trans was not something determined before birth and instead was something that randomly occurred at any age due to whatever, then I would understand my feelings now in a better way. However, all the research shows that being trans is determined during pregnancy before birth, so it stands to reason that at some point in your early childhood you would have these feelings of something not being quite right. 43 is well past childhood age!

Quote from: jayne01 on May 19, 2016, 07:48:07 AM
Yes, it would give me some kind of validation. While these feelings seem to exist now, if I could link them back to my childhood I would be able to see that this has been a lifelong thing and it would make more sense to me. If being trans was not something determined before birth and instead was something that randomly occurred at any age due to whatever, then I would understand my feelings now in a better way. However, all the research shows that being trans is determined during pregnancy before birth, so it stands to reason that at some point in your early childhood you would have these feelings of something not being quite right. 43 is well past childhood age!

It took me till 32. I turn 33 next week. I would have fought you tooth and nail upto as soon as a year ago if someone said I was trans. "No, I'm just you average dude." Nope. I really don't know what prompted my realization last October, but it did. It saved my life. Looking back? Prefered hanging with girls, especially after thirteen. Didn't understand what the guys around me were going through. How they could behave the way they did. At 12-13, wanting to develop into a full fledged woman. Male puberty was just...something I didn't want. I had no clue what was going on. No one around me had any clue what being transgender was. It was the 90s. The 90s sucked, especially for a young girl trying to play "boy". When I did learn about us, I was oddly ok with the idea. Maybe something clicked subconsciously and took another years to surface?

How are you supposed to know you are something, if you don't know what it is? Most professionals are going to assume depression or anxiety. That's what they did with me. I'm beginning to think a lot of it is meditation and reflection. I wish I could say something to help, but honestly....I dunno.

Quote from: ryokohimura on May 19, 2016, 03:23:24 PM
...Looking back? Prefered hanging with girls, especially after thirteen. Didn't understand what the guys around me were going through. How they could behave the way they did. At 12-13, wanting to develop into a full fledged woman. Male puberty was just...something I didn't want. I had no clue what was going on...

Thank you. That is exactly what I am trying to say. Everyone that identifies as trans always has some link back to their childhood where they knew something was up. Even if they didn't know it at the time, thinking back retrospectively, the feelings were there.

You say that you didn't believe you were trans into your 30's and have only started accepting it within the past year, yet you have memories of wanting to develop into a woman when you were 12-13. I don't have any such memories.

I didn't ever really fit in with the other guys at school, but I didn't fit in with girls either. I just didn't fit. I was a bit of a nerd though, so maybe that is why I didn't fit.

I wish there was something in my childhood memories (what few I can recall), that could give more credit to what I am feeling now. It would all make so much more sense to me.

Jayne, I think a lot of what gets to me about your situation is that I see a bit of myself. I grew up in Southeastern Massachusetts during the 90s. Kennedy Country. You didn't even come out as gay there. I remember hearing about an expose on lesbians Channel 5 (or was it 7?) Could your neighbor be a lesbian? Find out at 10!

And here's the thing, all those things I mentioned? Never thought of them as more than a passing oddity. I was always told "some guys have those feelings" and that I was just odd. My friends and family were not only clueless but useless. I love them dearly but they just made me feel worse. My memories weren't some assurance leading to a revelation. They didn't even make sense till after October 11th, 2015. It was a sunday, it was overcast and for some reason I had gone out wandering that day.

If I sound hostile, I don't mean to. I wish one of my therapists had told me years ago. I could have avoided years of torture, unnecessary anti-depressants and mood stabilisers, false depression/anxiety/bi-polar diagnoses and suicidal thoughts. I could be married, have a family, contributing to society in a meaningful way, anything really.

If the memories are there, they'll surface. It may take time. There's still so much that is not known about the mind.

Frankly, I think questioning ones own nature in a productive (not self-destructive) manner is a good thing.  It's how we find out what we really are, what drives us, and what will lead to our being happier in the long run.

We all question, we explore, we seek to know ourselves.  Many here on this site came to conclusions about our true nature only after many years, or decades of effort.  Many others who asked the same questions about themselves undoubtedly came to other, different conclusions.  Some didn't like the answers they uncovered and stopped searching.

In my case, I didn't have much about my childhood that I wanted to remember.  I had walled off the more unpleasant parts, leaving me with a few happy memories and some huge gaps.  I spent my later teenage years in an angry haze ("Vitamin shots, so you'll grow up right."  Thanks for the testosterone shots, Dad.). I joined the military, because what's not manly about lethal weapons and huge deadly machines?

I didn't ramp down from the T until I was in my 20s, and even then, I didn't consciously realize what was up until I met a transwoman in my early 30s, who was interviewing for a job on my team.  She was having a rough time passing after our all-day interview process, but I tried to respect her as a person looking for a position with us.  I found my self thinking that she was doing something pretty darn hard, but I still wished I could do that.  Wait, what?  Where did that come from?

That started me on my own path of questioning myself.  I figured out my true nature, but buried her deep as I now had a wife and small children that coming out would cause grave problems with.  That lasted almost 30 years, but I didn't quite make it to the grave with that secret.  (See avatar...)

Those buried childhood memories started bubbling up from the mental swamps a few years ago, bringing anxiety, dysphoria, and depression along for the ride.  I needed and got help, came out to family, and and preparing for a big transition.  :)

So Jayne, keep asking questions, and look deep at the possible answers and paths open to you.  I sincerely hope that you'll find a path that leads to your long term happiness, wherever that lies.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 19, 2016, 03:40:11 PM
Everyone that identifies as trans always has some link back to their childhood where they knew something was up...

... I just didn't fit...

I trimmed the quote because 'not fitting', yes, thats it. Something fundamental meant that we didn't fit with the gender stereo-types, which are being role-played, trialled and tested at that age. Where we are, outside that mix, is up to us to determine.

Sno

One of the things that scares me the most is that I might one day discover and truly accept myself as trans but not for many years to come. So I would have wasted so much of my life for nothing.

I know that when people say to be patient and I will know when I'm ready, whatever age, they are just trying to help. I find it very difficult to read things like that. To me it is like saying let your life just tick away and eventually it will come to you in your own time. Meanwhile, life is just going by and I'm not part of it.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 19, 2016, 07:38:53 AM
Not necessarily wrong with me, but it is certainly a symptom of something.....

(We've been through this many times before, but if it helps, I'm happy to reiterate.)

Why waste time pondering the material origin of your gender dysphoria, when no one is currently capable of unraveling what it is, or altering it?

At one point, you called it the worst thing that could possibly happen to you. To heal yourself, you need to view your gender as an essential part of your identity and respect yourself enough that if someone attempted to remove this part of you, they would encounter a hell of a fight.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 19, 2016, 07:38:53 AM
It will never fit someone else's narrative. We are all different. I am looking for common ground. We are all different, but not entirely 100% different. There has to be some kind of overlapping common experience that would place us in one group or another. It is that commonality I am trying to find.

The only thing you need in common to be considered transgender, is a desire to cross the border between genders. The source of this desire doesn't make a difference, and someone's experience of being transgender is just commentary.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 19, 2016, 07:38:53 AM
How is that even possible? HRT takes years to work. How can you just switch back and forth between being feminine and masculine? There is not one single feminine feature about me. I am hairy, have a gigantic Neanderthal looking head, hairy, have a deep voice and act just like any other guy. No matter how drunk or high on drugs you may be, you will never mistake me as feminine. So how can one just switch between feminine and not feminine without any help from HRT/surgery, which makes the switching back and forth part kind of impossible.

Its too bad that social stigma and a body that is relatively distant from our ideal make quenching one of our desires so arduous, but just like everyone else, we must try to quench our unquenchable desires, by envisioning a compelling compromise that we believe is possible and having conviction that we have the right to pursue it. It may take more than a lifetime to arrive at our ideal, but we must take this opportunity to develop an indomitable character, so we are capable of making the attempt and thus, enjoying the process of our lives.

I can hear you saying, "but I don't know what I want." Well, since you haven't been able to do it alone, you to need find influences that will urge you to experiment (preferably, start with a support group). Living is too complex for any expert to know what your best path forward is, but its evident that there are a lot of failures you still need to experience and move past, in order to develop the requisite fortitude.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 19, 2016, 07:48:07 AM
Yes, it would give me some kind of validation. While these feelings seem to exist now, if I could link them back to my childhood I would be able to see that this has been a lifelong thing and it would make more sense to me. If being trans was not something determined before birth and instead was something that randomly occurred at any age due to whatever, then I would understand my feelings now in a better way. However, all the research shows that being trans is determined during pregnancy before birth, so it stands to reason that at some point in your early childhood you would have these feelings of something not being quite right. 43 is well past childhood age!

Life is a realization our innate selves, so yes, you were born with it. If its the same thing I was born with, we will probably never know, but we can never really know the origin of anything, just how it interacts with it's environment.

Most likely you suppressed this desire in childhood, just like you're suppressing it now, but if you did or didn't doesn't make difference.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 19, 2016, 05:18:35 PM
One of the things that scares me the most is that I might one day discover and truly accept myself as trans but not for many years to come. So I would have wasted so much of my life for nothing.

I know that when people say to be patient and I will know when I'm ready, whatever age, they are just trying to help. I find it very difficult to read things like that. To me it is like saying let your life just tick away and eventually it will come to you in your own time. Meanwhile, life is just going by and I'm not part of it.

Again, you're making yourself miserable by longing for the impossible, and allowing your propensity for denial to deny you the happiness that is possible. It is a difficult situation we've been put in, but we must accept our lot in life.

Quote from: autumn08 on May 19, 2016, 07:37:24 PM
Again, you're making yourself miserable by longing for the impossible, and allowing your propensity for denial to deny you the happiness that is possible. It is a difficult situation we've been put in, but we must accept our lot in life.

I often cannot relate to what you are saying and have trouble seeing your point of view, but one thing that you are definitely doing for me is increasing my vocabulary. Rarely do I read one of your posts without having to consult a dictionary. So thank you for that.

I keep hearing that I should just accept what is. It would be a lot easier to accept if I knew what I was accepting and why.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 19, 2016, 08:08:25 PM
I often cannot relate to what you are saying and have trouble seeing your point of view, but one thing that you are definitely doing for me is increasing my vocabulary. Rarely do I read one of your posts without having to consult a dictionary. So thank you for that.

Lol, at least I'm having some sort of effect.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 19, 2016, 08:08:25 PM
...what I was accepting...

If not for the costs, you would want to cross the border between genders.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 19, 2016, 08:08:25 PM
...why.

You should accept it because by denying it, you're believing an innate part of yourself is unworthy of acceptance. Also, this self-hatred is preventing you from finding a better compromise than the one you're currently experiencing.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 19, 2016, 03:40:11 PM
Thank you. That is exactly what I am trying to say. Everyone that identifies as trans always has some link back to their childhood where they knew something was up. Even if they didn't know it at the time, thinking back retrospectively, the feelings were there.

Not me. I discovered this last year at 38yo. I even asked my parents and there's nothing.

Possible trigger warning...

This from my personal perspective, apologies if I'm using wrong terms etc.

For me the tipping point was realising that even at my current age (big 6' 4", and yes, hairy), there is a language and non-verbal communication barrier with the males around, and I make mistakes.

Those mistakes make me the 'outsider' - basically, as a male, I do not pass, even though I was MAAB.

I *feel* that, and yes the isolation hurts - I feel wrong.

This is in spite of my immersion in masculine society for the whole of my life.

Most of the time I feel that I, personally, have no gender (until the mirror proves me wrong). However actually actively questioning 'is it my gender?' is what makes me trans. 100%. Because Cis people don't do that *at all*, they never really question their gender. As I am discovering.

I found self acceptance of the title, for that reason as easy as the geek label, (cobol coding at 9, read the schools libraries, self taught assembly language at 13). The public acceptance, is a very, very much bigger deal...


Sno

Quote from: Fresas con Nata on May 20, 2016, 01:06:51 AM
Not me. I discovered this last year at 38yo. I even asked my parents and there's nothing.

How did you know the feelings were real and not something else causing you to feel this way? What made you decide you are trans?

Quote from: jayne01 on May 20, 2016, 04:08:32 AM
How did you know the feelings were real and not something else causing you to feel this way? What made you decide you are trans?

I can't find any reason that caused me to like women stuff. I like their clothes and want to wear them, I like how they make-up their faces and I want to be like that too. Heck I even have sexual fantasies in which I'm a woman. I go in girl mode and feel well, head high, this is me. Ok in the mirror I see myself as a guy in a dress but that will change over time. Then I go back to guy mode (work...) and it takes a lot of effort to remove the wig.

Mind you, I'm confused as hell, but then do I want to live the rest of my life as a male? NO. Would I wake up as a woman tomorrow if I could? YES. Cis people don't answer like that to these questions.

Might I be making a terrible mistake? Well then, if I'm having "fun" with all this stuff, then surely I will have REAL FUN when I need to publicly backtrack! :D

Quote from: Sno on May 20, 2016, 03:00:12 AM
Possible trigger warning...

This from my personal perspective, apologies if I'm using wrong terms etc.

For me the tipping point was realising that even at my current age (big 6' 4", and yes, hairy), there is a language and non-verbal communication barrier with the males around, and I make mistakes.

Those mistakes make me the 'outsider' - basically, as a male, I do not pass, even though I was MAAB.

I *feel* that, and yes the isolation hurts - I feel wrong.

This is in spite of my immersion in masculine society for the whole of my life.

Most of the time I feel that I, personally, have no gender (until the mirror proves me wrong). However actually actively questioning 'is it my gender?' is what makes me trans. 100%. Because Cis people don't do that *at all*, they never really question their gender. As I am discovering.

I found self acceptance of the title, for that reason as easy as the geek label, (cobol coding at 9, read the schools libraries, self taught assembly language at 13). The public acceptance, is a very, very much bigger deal...


Sno

If you are trans woman, being big can be a challenge. 99.99% of woman aren't that tall and/or big. I am 6'5 and not skinny, but in my mind I am more female than male. It sucks. If there is a god, it has a sick sense of humor.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 20, 2016, 04:08:32 AM
How did you know the feelings were real and not something else causing you to feel this way? What made you decide you are trans?

Because who we are is in between the ears. Denying it causes cognitive dissonance. Once admitted, I felt better, but not there yet. The desire to be authentic and align with who one is on the inside with outside is the fix.

QuoteHow did you know the feelings were real and not something else causing you to feel this way? What made you decide you are trans?

In my case I spent most of my life trying to make it go away.  I didn't hate myself or even feel bad about being trans.  I did however hate the way it made me feel trapped with no good way out.  As for it not being real and caused by something else, what possible other explanation is there?  I invoked Occam's Razor after intently examining it for years.  I also looked at all the counter arguments and without fail they all misrepresent what I know with certainty is going on inside my head.

Quote from: Fresas con Nata on May 20, 2016, 08:07:16 AM
...but then do I want to live the rest of my life as a male? NO. Would I wake up as a woman tomorrow if I could? YES. Cis people don't answer like that to these questions....

Do I want to live the rest of my life as a male? YES. Would I wake up as a woman tomorrow if I could? NO. I just want these feelings gone, extinguished, eradicated.

Your questions above just reinforce my thinking that there is something else going on with me. I just don't know where else to turn. I've hit a dead end.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 19, 2016, 07:38:53 AM
How is that even possible? HRT takes years to work. How can you just switch back and forth between being feminine and masculine? There is not one single feminine feature about me. I am hairy, have a gigantic Neanderthal looking head, hairy, have a deep voice and act just like any other guy. No matter how drunk or high on drugs you may be, you will never mistake me as feminine. So how can one just switch between feminine and not feminine without any help from HRT/surgery, which makes the switching back and forth part kind of impossible.
....

Thank you. That is exactly what I am trying to say. Everyone that identifies as trans always has some link back to their childhood where they knew something was up. Even if they didn't know it at the time, thinking back retrospectively, the feelings were there.

Hrt works faster than you think, I felt the emotional changes within days and physical changes within a month, people were noticing changes within 2 months (not specifically that I was more feminine yet but I'm also not yet addressing facial hair). Like you I have no features anyone would identify as feminine.

And like most or at least many late onset trans women I had absolutely no idea until I was 40. In retrospect I can see some things but I've been actively trans for 20 years.

Again, I wrestled with this for a couple of years before deciding cross dressing  wasn't all it was about for me and longer than that to decide I was absolutely transexual and decided for then not to transition via hrt or SRS. I guess in retrospect I wish I'd not given in to pressure from my GF and explored low-dose estrogen however that's water under the bridge and the  time has not in any way been wasted, I've pursued new careers, immeasurably strengthened my relationship and been on balance pretty happy with life.

Lastly I have to wonder if learning to connect with your emotions might not also make memories you say you don't have become available to you. I know healing myself in the present  required remembering and understanding many things from my past and made the most painful memories less difficult.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 19, 2016, 05:18:35 PM
One of the things that scares me the most is that I might one day discover and truly accept myself as trans but not for many years to come. So I would have wasted so much of my life for nothing.

I'm not totally sure exactly what your sentiment is here.

I do not see my in my case "My life ticking away" for the 50 some odd years prior to my acceptance of Yes, I am a transsexual woman. What I see today is that I could not accept, I could not take ownership of my life, and all my accomplishments prior to that time. While groping my way through the fog of despair and depression were the thoughts; "I want to be a 'Normal' guy" and I'm doing what is expected. Expected of course being the absolute minimum level of performance, anything less absolute failures. And boy did I have plenty of them I took complete ownership of because that was a yet another failure on my part on trying to be 'Normal'

Today, it is still difficult to totally 'Own' all the good, great, and cool things I have done on an emotional level. I suspect because there never was any emotion associated with them to begin with. However I firmly believe that every event in my life, in everyone's life is all part of their totality. The sum of all these events in some way go into making you, you. As long as the clock is ticking that is. I am the person I am today precisely because of those 50 some odd years prior

TBH - As of late, with the big 6-0 right around the corner I do see my life ticking away somewhat. Myself and about every other person hitting that milestone. For me feeling anything about a decade birthday is something totally new and different. A LOT of feelings I have today are mostly new and different. I actually feel things now.

How about not focusing on the "Am I trans" thoughts and focus on just being yourself. Being trans is not about making drastic changes to your body and presentation. It just means you don't quite fit into the box created by society. Try breaking down any walls that are preventing you from being 100% yourself without worrying about modifying your body. If after you're living as yourself totally you find that you can't cope with the body you're in, then consider the medical transition. It doesn't have to be all or nothing.

Do you act like you enjoy anything just because it's a guy thing? Stop doing that. Do you act like you don't like something because it's a girl thing? Stop doing that. Do you have anything you would like to try, but won't because you think it's too feminine? Do it anyway. Are your clothing choices because you like them and you like the way you look in them? Or were they chosen because they're manly? Wear what you want and forget everybody else. There will always be someone that disagrees with you. It's not your job to make everybody else happy. Your job is to make you happy. The only rules to being you are set by you. Nobody else has a say in that.

Quote from: Emileeeee on May 20, 2016, 04:36:14 PM
How about not focusing on the "Am I trans" thoughts and focus on just being yourself. Being trans is not about making drastic changes to your body and presentation. It just means you don't quite fit into the box created by society. Try breaking down any walls that are preventing you from being 100% yourself without worrying about modifying your body. If after you're living as yourself totally you find that you can't cope with the body you're in, then consider the medical transition. It doesn't have to be all or nothing.

Do you act like you enjoy anything just because it's a guy thing? Stop doing that. Do you act like you don't like something because it's a girl thing? Stop doing that. Do you have anything you would like to try, but won't because you think it's too feminine? Do it anyway. Are your clothing choices because you like them and you like the way you look in them? Or were they chosen because they're manly? Wear what you want and forget everybody else. There will always be someone that disagrees with you. It's not your job to make everybody else happy. Your job is to make you happy. The only rules to being you are set by you. Nobody else has a say in that.

I don't know what being 100% myself is. I don't know what it is I like just because I like it. I wear clothes so I keep warm and not walk around naked. I don't wear what I wear because it is manly or not. I don't have any fashion preferences. I just wear what is comfortable. I really don't have any identity of my own at all, male or female or anything in between. If I could choose to wear anything I wanted, I don't know what that would be, so I just go with what is practical at the time.

have hug and a back pat {hug}

Quote from: jayne01 on May 20, 2016, 06:46:26 PM
... I really don't have any identity of my own at all, male or female or anything in between...

Have you heard of Neutrois.? or Agender.? they both fit exactly what you are describing here, and both a part of the transgender spectrum - the Switzerland of gender if you like. What I have read here, also has elements of gender-fluidity - some days feeling more female, others more male.

I'm going to start with an interesting paper (and the abstract covers the main points):

Psychiatry Res. 2015 Mar 30;226(1):173-80. doi: 10.1016/j.psychres.2014.12.045. Epub 2015 Jan 23.
Dissociative symptoms in individuals with gender dysphoria: is the elevated prevalence real?

from the paper abstract:

QuoteTherefore, because the body uneasiness is common to dissociative experiences and gender dysphoria, the question is whether dissociation is to be seen not as an expression of pathological dissociative experiences but as a genuine feature of gender dysphoria.

As has been reported in the paper above, that treating the dysphoria could help with the dissociation - I am not, however, a therapist or psychiatrist.

Neutrois and Agender folk have reported that taking HRT can silence the dysphoria (have a look in the discussion groups here), and clarify the internal gender dialog (either to the opposite gender, or remaining agender). the challenge is obviously down to the skill of the doctor prescribing and yourself on the level of physical change that is acceptable.

I'm not surprised though that this aligns with all the advice from the kind folk here ! ;)

I really feel for you, i know I feel wretched when I am dysphoric.


Sno

Hi Jayne, fellow aussie here, G'day :).

Coming a bit late to the thread but I'd like to tell you my story to see if it helps as I see some similarities didn't know really until 40, crossdressing a man in women's clothes.

In my 20's I started to dislike aspects of my male body (hair and later hips/bottom). I probably wasn't that male to begin with more likely androgynous so hence the low dysphoria. To combat hair I was shaving legs (arm hair wasn't a problem then) and at 28 to combat hips/bottom I put on some weight to get the desired effect (slight detrimental effect on waist).

Fast forward to 40 the further masculinisation (is that a word?) had me having some dysphoria but it wasn't that severe (like removing penis time). I lived with it with the help of a good non-gender specialist psychologist for which I had been going to for a couple of years for other issues. During these sessions I decided I was transgender, being gender non-conforming to gender assigned at birth, but I had not decided what flavor.

A year later I was referred by my GP to a psychiatrist because of a breakdown with depression/anxiety that became unmanageable. And in our first meeting I came out and said I was transgender and the reply was to asked if I had crossdressed to which the answer was no, so therefore I wasn't transgender. The psychiatrist saying this caused me no end of angst and confusion because I felt the label fitted somewhat. It goes to show that even specialists have biases, it took me a while to believe that even with their training they still make profound mistakes.

When I was 42 I went to gender experienced psychologist again in our first meeting I came out again and was received well regardless of the clothes I wear. I was given help with identifying myself in the transgender spectrum as I didnt feel that 100% MTF was the right thing for me. I also was given the name of a gender experienced psychiatrist to replace the previous psychiatrist I dropped because of sub-par results.

In my sessions with the new psychiatrist, I have started experimenting with crossdressing (after thinking its just clothes and they would do nothing for me) and I too have hit the why bother since I just look like a man in womens clothes. The small success (via trial and error) I have found that it is best to have pants/jeans which are sized for your hips and long length to match leg length and tops/arms which are sized for your shoulders and I guess the styles I have bought pretty much results in having a androgynous look.

I am also starting with an endocrinologist to be prescribed anti-androgens because of my dislike of certain aspects of my male body hopefully the AA with help my male based dysphoria, I guess when this is sorted out oestrogen will be next.

I pegging myself as non-binary agender/androgynous/fluid, agender because I don't feel particularly male or female, androgynous because I don't like certain aspect of male (hair, v-shape torso) and want some aspect of female (hips, bottom), and fluid because sometimes I do want breasts and a vagina, and other times I can live with the penis and testicles.

Hug, hopes this helps and good luck in finding some peace to your angst and confusion (I know it can be an ordeal).

Regards, Pip.

Hi Sno, thanks for the info from the paper about dissociative symptoms. Interesting! It might apply to me. This is the first I'm hearing of anything like this. No therapist has ever mentioned anything like that to me.
I don't know about Neutrois or Agender. It doesn't feel like I'm no gender. It feels like I'm a guy that has thoughts/feelings that confuse me, until I look in the mirror and get reminded that indeed I am a guy, and then those feelings go away and get replaced with a different kind of confusion of why did I have those thoughts in the first place, but I am a guy.

Hi Pip,
Thanks for sharing your story. I see some similarities to me except for the link back to a young age (in your 20's). I cannot find that link back to my youth. I find it hard to believe that I have just become transgender in my 40's with nothing to link back to a younger age. It's not like I got hit by lightning and 'bam!' Now I'm transgender. It is not making any sense to me.

Hi Jayne,

I guess though as I had these feelings when I was younger (though not as young as others when they were 4yr old or at puberty) but I didn't see it as I was transgender at that point in my life, it was just a feeling that had to be rectified. Only later when the dysphoria became worse I started to contemplate transgender and deal with it as a whole rather than just treating the symptoms of dysphoria.

So I guess the point is that maybe you could rectify your dysphoria by doing something simple and not worry about whether your transgender or not. I don't know if you said how your dysphoria manifests but maybe there are simple ways to reduce it like hair reduction, tucking, etc.

Regards, Pip.

Quote from: PipTheCat on May 21, 2016, 07:41:46 AM
... I don't know if you said how your dysphoria manifests ...

It is usually something as simple as passing a woman in the street who looks similar age and similar build to me. Also, seeing two women together (as a couple) sets me off, maybe because I am attracted to women, not men.

In then get thoughts in my head wishing I was these women. When I think about it, I start to feel really creepy. These women are just going about their day minding their own business and here is me wishing I could be them. That seems so messed up. It makes my own skin crawl, imagine what these ladies would think if the could read my mind. Yuck!.....I've just creeped myself out now just writing that.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 20, 2016, 09:13:53 AM
Would I wake up as a woman tomorrow if I could? NO. I just want these feelings gone, extinguished, eradicated.

Jayne, could it be that you want these feelings eradicated purely because of external/practical reasons (ie, hurting your wife, shame, fear of repercussions from society, fear of not passing etc)? I ask this because of a seemingly contradictory statement you made recently, being:

Quote from: jayne01 on May 08, 2016, 05:47:25 PM
The idea of not being trans and perhaps never speaking of it again actually made me feel like I would be destroying part of myself.

Jayne,

in Arch Sex Behav (2012) 41:759–796 DOI 10.1007/s10508-012-9975-x
Report of the American Psychiatric Association Task Force on Treatment of Gender Identity Disorder

"In particular, those with late onset are more likely to have had unre- markable histories of gender nonconformity as children, and are less likely to be primarily sexually attracted to individuals of their natal gender, at least prior to gender transition (Lawrence, 2010)."

This is the guidance document for the APA that established the diagnostic criteria for the DSM-V.

As many of us have said, here you have it from the experts: GID with late onset tends to in fact not include childhood experience of GID, that is you're the rule not the exception.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 21, 2016, 06:10:05 AM
Hi Sno, thanks for the info from the paper about dissociative symptoms. Interesting! It might apply to me. This is the first I'm hearing of anything like this. No therapist has ever mentioned anything like that to me.
I don't know about Neutrois or Agender. It doesn't feel like I'm no gender. It feels like I'm a guy that has thoughts/feelings that confuse me, until I look in the mirror and get reminded that indeed I am a guy, and then those feelings go away and get replaced with a different kind of confusion of why did I have those thoughts in the first place, but I am a guy.

You say you are a guy (sometimes), and its just that the sight/thought of women makes you want to be them, and that makes you feel bad.  There's a version of agender that do feel they have an gender (could be you since you say you're a guy [from a few posts]), but they think it is or that it should be irrelevant and that they don't want outside pressure to define them (seems like you're stressing about gender, lol an understatement I think).  How do you know you're not this type of agender?

Personally, I'm almost that agender, but I never have gotten that sense of being man/woman, like some people do (like you do if thats what you mean when you say you're a guy[in some posts]).  I still emphasize not wanting to care though.

A lot of times it feels like I could just be a cis-guy, but I love (so much!!!) how agender/nonbinary takes pressure off trying to be someone I'm not (so I can do whatever I want, regardless of feeling masc/fem).  Somedays I don't really see a difference between me and a somewhat feminine guy (or a masculine girl, besides sex bits), the difference is how we get to the point of being comfortable expressing ourselves.  I used to (and still do a bit) worry a ton that I'm not trans enough for going to groups, but I haven't been excluded yet. 

I came out to my ma and grandma a bit ago, and they said, after thinking about it for a while, that they can't remember any signs that I might be trans at all from my childhood, besides that I was super sensitive and that I really liked purple.  Thinking back, I only remember anxiety from wanting to fit into homophobic/transphobic circles of friends.  There was no inner girl, just that I wouldn't express myself.  Puberty was a pretty null experience for me.  I didn't feel like I fit in anywhere, didn't make any serious friendships, didn't express myself, like, at all, felt cold inside, because I felt too anxious about expressing myself.  I got through it fine though. 

Quote from: jayne01 on May 19, 2016, 07:38:53 AM
Not necessarily wrong with me, but it is certainly a symptom of something.....

It will never fit someone else's narrative. We are all different. I am looking for common ground. We are all different, but not entirely 100% different. There has to be some kind of overlapping common experience that would place us in one group or another. It is that commonality I am trying to find.

I was really worried about that too, that I'm not really trans, just that I really wanted a solution.  It's a hard thing to shake. 

I think the commonality between trans people is they experience saying they're trans. 

Quote from: jayne01 on May 21, 2016, 10:02:07 AM
In then get thoughts in my head wishing I was these women. When I think about it, I start to feel really creepy.

At least you know what you want to fix about yourself, not feeling creepy (via not wanting to want to be woman or maybe just by not feeling like its a creepy thing) [the second option is generally easier I think].  Why is it creepy to want to be someone else?  As long as you don't want to hurt them physically or emotionally, it shouldn't be creepy.  Creepy is almost a trigger word for me (I don't have PTSD, I don't want to trivialize it), because I've always felt creepy, but only a couple ppl ever actually told me I am (Those people did a number on me though).  I think its why I never expressed myself before questioning, for fear of being creepy.  It helped me to think about what creepy is.  Its a label for people to put on others who feel threatening in a subversive way.  Doesn't mean you're actually doing anything wrong, but its still so hurtful. 

Quote from: SadieBlake on May 21, 2016, 11:39:21 AM
Jayne,

in Arch Sex Behav (2012) 41:759–796 DOI 10.1007/s10508-012-9975-x
Report of the American Psychiatric Association Task Force on Treatment of Gender Identity Disorder

"In particular, those with late onset are more likely to have had unre- markable histories of gender nonconformity as children, and are less likely to be primarily sexually attracted to individuals of their natal gender, at least prior to gender transition (Lawrence, 2010)."

This is the guidance document for the APA that established the diagnostic criteria for the DSM-V.

As many of us have said, here you have it from the experts: GID with late onset tends to in fact not include childhood experience of GID, that is you're the rule not the exception.

Thanks for the link to that article. It is a long article with lots of medical terms which went over my head. However the article starts by talking about "Diagnosis and treatment of Gender Identity Disorder..." My therapist has told me "Being trans is not a disorder, therefore you are not going to receive a "diagnosis".". Those are her exact words quoted from an email she sent me. That is in direct contradiction with the article.

There is a lot of that article I did not understand due to all the medical terms.  I don't know what to believe anymore. I am more inclined to trust my therapist who has been seeing me in person for 8-9 months than an article I don't really understand. This is all adding to my confusion.

Hi Jayne,

Quote from: jayne01 on May 21, 2016, 10:02:07 AM
It is usually something as simple as passing a woman in the street who looks similar age and similar build to me. Also, seeing two women together (as a couple) sets me off, maybe because I am attracted to women, not men.

In then get thoughts in my head wishing I was these women. When I think about it, I start to feel really creepy. These women are just going about their day minding their own business and here is me wishing I could be them. That seems so messed up. It makes my own skin crawl, imagine what these ladies would think if the could read my mind. Yuck!.....I've just creeped myself out now just writing that.

I get that too seeing women on the streets on wanting to be shaped like them and as far as I remember it only started later in life. The creepy-ness that you have I had to an extent and was helped with gender therapy to integrate those feelings into my psyche as a whole (on going over past 2.5 years). In my case it was also mixed up with bad feelings about my father who had gender issues and psychological issues which didn't end in a good way. I guess what came from therapy is to trust that what I feel isn't wrong (it is indeed you who are feeling these feelings).

In what way do you want to be like these women, is it breasts, is it hips/bottom, is it what's they wear, is it how they carry themselves or is it the whole package? Maybe you could identify one aspect of being a women and work on that and see if that helps. Baby steps, which helped me with my aspergian resistance to change.

Now alternatively, though I am not a mental health practitioner, is seems that seeing women on the street is triggering the "instrusive" and unwanted thoughts of wanting to be like them and causing you to obsess about being transgender all of a sudden, is characteristic of Pure O OCD (I think OCD was mentioned previously). Maybe you could see if your psychologist(s) thinks it a possibility and help you work though that.

Edit spelling
Regards, Pip

Hi,

I'm enjoying the reading that trying to help is making me do - so many discoveries, and little pieces of information that helping me understand myself better. So to carry on

From above (trigger warning):

Quote from: jayne01 on May 21, 2016, 10:02:07 AM
It is usually something as simple as passing a woman in the street who looks similar age and similar build to me. Also, seeing two women together (as a couple) sets me off, maybe because I am attracted to women, not men.

In then get thoughts in my head wishing I was these women...

...

This I believe is a memetic desire - the process that we all have when we see some-one doing something that engages with us at a deeper level. It is a form of internalized imitation - our brains trying something out - an internal 'what would it be like, to be like that'. these sorts of desires that are commonly talked about are physique, wealth, material possessions and success

As humans, we all do it all the time, the positives are it helps us innovate, empathize and problem solve, (the darker ends of it are envy and jealousy... ). It sounds like this is a challenge, because these desires are in direct conflict with what you think you should be desiring.. if that makes sense...

take care

Sno

Quote from: jayne01 on May 21, 2016, 06:59:57 PM
Thanks for the link to that article. It is a long article with lots of medical terms which went over my head. However the article starts by talking about "Diagnosis and treatment of Gender Identity Disorder..." My therapist has told me "Being trans is not a disorder, therefore you are not going to receive a "diagnosis".". Those are her exact words quoted from an email she sent me. That is in direct contradiction with the article.

There is a lot of that article I did not understand due to all the medical terms.  I don't know what to believe anymore. I am more inclined to trust my therapist who has been seeing me in person for 8-9 months than an article I don't really understand. This is all adding to my confusion.

I agree with your therapist as do most trans people. However this is the language of medicine and so it's characterized as an illness. Note that this is changing and so for instance many things in psychiatry used to be characterized as disorder (e.g. being gay) and have long since been modified or removed from the DSM

This entire thread is about disphoria which is known to the medical profession as GID - gender identity disorder. Many practitioners prefer the term gender variant.

I suggest not getting hung up on the semantics (and yes I see this as another strawman). The medical establishment and especially the insurance people need a diagnosis in order to offer a 'treatment', hence the term disorder.

A rose by any other name would still smell as sweet - and still has thorns .

It makes no difference to me if it is called an illness, disorder, or anything else. They are just words. The article talked about being "diagnosed", yet no one is prepared to diagnose me. Everyone tells me I need to self diagnose, which as I previously mentioned seems to be in direct contradiction with the article.

If calling it a disorder will get me a diagnosis, then call it a disorder. Why is everyone so resistant to diagnosing me? The most likely explanation is that the diagnosis would not be transgender. Why is it such a big secret and no professional wants to tell me? I could not care less if it called an illness or disorder or any other word you can think of.

No one has Diagnosed me as such...2 Psych's and a Psychologist agree with me that I have gender Dysphoria and Transition is my best choice of "treatment". I do not care less what some Psych thinks unless he is the one giving me my letter for further treatment(which I have). Here in Australia you must get written approval for HRT from a Psych. But even still that letter said nothing other than I was ready to commence HRT...no diagnosis. I did get a kind of Diagnosis from my pain management Psychiatrist, but even then it was not definitive.

You want what I wanted I think

Someone to tell you that you have XXX wrong and XXX will fix it. but because there is also a chance they might say you don't have gender dysphoria it winds you up!!

Do you think you are Trans? Yes? Then guess what....you are. How many "straight cis males" do you know that have spent all the time you have worrying about their gender identity. I asked my brothers this question and the answer was immediate and blunt...never was the answer!

The tough part for many of us is the self-acceptance we are trans and what that means for our lives...is this where you are stuck? It is an odd situation because we are so used to seeing a Medical Professionals telling us what is wrong and then giving us something to fix it, when it comes to something like this they seem to be floundering.

Liz K

Quote from: ElizabethK on May 22, 2016, 03:39:06 PM

The tough part for many of us is the self-acceptance we are trans and what that means for our lives...is this where you are stuck? It is an odd situation because we are so used to seeing a Medical Professionals telling us what is wrong and then giving us something to fix it, when it comes to something like this they seem to be floundering.

Liz K

Why is it so much to ask for a mental health professional who treats trans people every single day to be able to tell me if I am trans or not. I have asked that question directly many times and I always get a round about answer that tells me nothing. I also ask what is wrong with me and get told nothing is wrong with me. It feels like I am being played with. If there was nothing wrong then why have I spent so long going to session after session? How the hell am I supposed to know if am trans or not when I have never even met s trans person? It makes no sense to me.

I can imagine among the big problems therapist have dealing with potential GD clients is that "Signs & Symptoms" are often couched, denied suppressed or otherwise misinterpreted by the client. Shame, Guilt, Internalized Transphobia, Curiosity, Questioning, WTF???, or I had these fantasies of.... can all say different things. Conversely "Damn the torpedoes full speed ahead" or similar types must also cause some level of concern and need to explore various feelings

For some it can be like peeling an onion. Many layers till you get to the good stuff

I'm struggling with words today (friend has made a post that has triggered, elsewhere), hopefully you will be able to follow along.

I think it may be because of the way that you are asking the question too - if you ask to compare an apple with an apple - the answer would be 'no difference'. If you asked to compare an apple against a crab apple, then the answers would be 'bigger, sweeter, uniform colour'. The important part is the comparison. So trying to rephrase 'what is wrong with me' to allow comparison - you might say 'how do I compare to ...', making sure to leave the question open. that way you might be able to get some personal perspective. You could also phrase it along the lines of 'if I were trans, would this experience be normal?'

Does this help?

[hugs]

Sno

Quote from: jayne01 on May 22, 2016, 04:13:24 PM
Why is it so much to ask for a mental health professional who treats trans people every single day to be able to tell me if I am trans or not. I have asked that question directly many times and I always get a round about answer that tells me nothing. I also ask what is wrong with me and get told nothing is wrong with me. It feels like I am being played with. If there was nothing wrong then why have I spent so long going to session after session? How the hell am I supposed to know if am trans or not when I have never even met s trans person? It makes no sense to me.

A psychiatrist should be able to give you a definitive diagnosis...here is Australia unless you are a DR you are not able to make a diagnosis. You need to be a recognized practitioner so people like counselors or even Psychologists can't make a legal diagnosis. My Psychologist did say to me that "in her experience and with what I have described then she agreed with me that I appear to have gender Dysphoria" that was as close as she is allowed.  There is no standard diagnostic test for Gender Dysphoria, there are so many variables so it makes a diagnosis more of an informed guess than a scientific fact.

Technically you have Gender Dysphoria by definition because you display signs of distress(Dysphoria) about your gender...as to how intense that is and what the best course of treatment for you is...well, I guess that it up to you to decide.

I hear the anguish and frustration in you posts and it must be getting really hard for you. Am 100% sure I am doing the right thing...yes...do I have my moments of doubt...Yes...Will I continue despite these doubts...absolutely. Because on balance I can see that the direction my life is taking, is a positive.

Do you think you are trans..apart from the normal doubts is there any one big red flag for you that makes you think you are not?

Liz K

Hi Jayne, sorry to pipe in again, I know this must be frustrating for you.

Being transgender is like being lesbian/gay/bisexual, you can't be told that you are, it is a self discovery process which may be quick or may be long and somewhat protracted. It seems you are trying to short circuit the discovery process by getting someone to tell you that you are transgender, but the best you can get in terms of a diagnosis is gender dysphoria.

If you would like an action plan here is my go at it... note I'm not a mental health professional but I have been round the traps as a consumer so to speak.

As I see it there are 2 options for you to move forward and could possibly be happier than the status quo.

1. Work with your psychologists to reduce the impact of these GD feelings when they occur, maybe accepting the feeling has become prominent in your psyche and let it fade away, a bit like acceptance therapy combined with a bit of mindfulness. Because when you let it fade away you don't go down the rabbit hole to figure out what it all means and do the if this then that decision tree (I had this problem). In this scenario you come to accept that you have these feelings but choose not to do anything about said feelings but only to acknowledge they exist.

2. Work with your psychologists to integrate the GD feelings (not be afraid of accepting them as part of your psyche) and explore the GD feelings that you do have and understand possibly what makes you you. Self discovery even when guided by a MHP is very empowering. Maybe as as of a result of this process you maybe able to answer the question you want answered, are you transgendered.

Sorry, if that wall of text hard to comprehend and I hope I got what meant to say across.

Hope this finds you well. Hug

Regards, Pip.

Quote from: ElizabethK on May 22, 2016, 07:03:36 PM
A psychiatrist should be able to give you a definitive diagnosis...here is Australia unless you are a DR you are not able to make a diagnosis. You need to be a recognized practitioner so people like counselors or even Psychologists can't make a legal diagnosis. My Psychologist did say to me that "in her experience and with what I have described then she agreed with me that I appear to have gender Dysphoria" that was as close as she is allowed.  There is no standard diagnostic test for Gender Dysphoria, there are so many variables so it makes a diagnosis more of an informed guess than a scientific fact.

This is true in the US also, Jayne, I hadn't considered that but Elizabeth is dead on in her suggestions here.

I had the good luck to choose a real gem of a psychiatrist for my therapy -- it had to be an MD because I wanted the option of antidepressants and have used them I  the past as help in getting over the brunt of depression problems.

Because she also believes in talk therapy we have developed a very solid working relationship, I'm thankful every time I get to see her that I have someone so committed to working with me.

I get that you want a diagnosis, maybe it will help to know that while the WPATH guidelines require a diagnosis from a PhD or MD for surgery, recommendation for hormone therapy can be from any qualified mental health professional.

If your working relationships with your therapists are positive and they are helping with your understanding then you probably want to stay with it, if not you may need to see someone different. For my own part I use therapy for a lot more than just my gender dysphoria and it works well for me. I also chose not to return to the therapist I'd worked with 15 years ago because I felt that as positive as that had been then, I needed a different set of skills for the things I'm dealing with here and now.

Quote from: SadieBlake on May 23, 2016, 06:04:07 AM
This is true in the US also, Jayne, I hadn't considered that but Elizabeth is dead on in her suggestions here.

I had the good luck to choose a real gem of a psychiatrist for my therapy -- it had to be an MD because I wanted the option of antidepressants and have used them I  the past as help in getting over the brunt of depression problems.

Because she also believes in talk therapy we have developed a very solid working relationship, I'm thankful every time I get to see her that I have someone so committed to working with me.

I get that you want a diagnosis, maybe it will help to know that while the WPATH guidelines require a diagnosis from a PhD or MD for surgery, recommendation for hormone therapy can be from any qualified mental health professional.

If your working relationships with your therapists are positive and they are helping with your understanding then you probably want to stay with it, if not you may need to see someone different. For my own part I use therapy for a lot more than just my gender dysphoria and it works well for me. I also chose not to return to the therapist I'd worked with 15 years ago because I felt that as positive as that had been then, I needed a different set of skills for the things I'm dealing with here and now.

One of my psychologists was a PhD. She didn't give me a diagnosis either. I am really losing all faith in therapy. I don't know what the purpose of therapy is or what I should be expecting from it, but I don't think it is for me. I am not compatible with it. My brain doesn't seem to work with all the touchy-feely therapy stuff. I just want the facts, and no therapist wants to give me any facts, they keep beating around the bush.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 23, 2016, 06:29:07 AM
One of my psychologists was a PhD. She didn't give me a diagnosis either. I am really losing all faith in therapy. I don't know what the purpose of therapy is or what I should be expecting from it, but I don't think it is for me. I am not compatible with it. My brain doesn't seem to work with all the touchy-feely therapy stuff. I just want the facts, and no therapist wants to give me any facts, they keep beating around the bush.

PhD psychologist still isn't an MD, so there's that. And of whatever stripe medical professionals tend to run extremely conservative for good reason, your health is their responsibility.

Moreover, we've told you, what works for most of us is we know we're  transgender and therapy is -- well for me anyway -- getting help and feedback on choices in addressing what to do with that fact.

I think I get what you're saying, having experienced plenty of frustration that my former therapist would not engage in my idea of rational discourse. It took me a couple of years to learn that she was right and how to practice accepting my feelings as valid instead of running myself in circles trying to understand them.

Here's how I think of it. A zen monk whose writing I have found helpful said something like this:

Meditation is hard, if meditation isn't what you want to be doing then don't do it because if it isn't nt what you really need in the moment then 'meditating' won't do anything anyway.

Same thing goes for therapy. If it isn't working then don't do it. However if your objection to therapy is that it's hard work then you just have to choose whether you're ready to do that work. If you truly believe that you can address emotional problems with a rational, dialectical approach then go and do that.

In my case I ultimately agreed with my therapist, the dialect approach wound up spinning me in circles. I'm still prone to doing that because like you I have this big and competent tool called a brain. What I found ultimately was that once I simply accepted my emotions then I was more able to make decisions and yes that's back to rationality.

For me, therapy is a place where I can talk about things that I really don't have other outlets for. Talking about depression with people I know and care for doesn't help, it's not their job to help me and relationships, friendships have complexities that aren't part of therapy. I certainly couldn't talk to my GF about transitioning as she has historically been pretty negative on the subject and so I can't rely on her for objective views. (Eventually of course I talked to her but that was after making the decision I needed to proceed with hormone transition.)

I see you going in circles and recognizing that from my own past I think therapy is probably a useful tool however I can only offer my own experience, you're the one who decides whether it's the right process for you and also how it goes. You're the boss of your own life.

Transgender has no tangible facts Jayne. What makes a woman a woman?  or a man a man?  There is male and female, which is a direct fact of genetic sex. male has a P, female has a V. Woman or man though is entirely abstract, non tangible. It can only be what you are inside.

Jayne, you have this incredible ability through what you have written to describe my prior thoughts and emotions. (feeling creeped out) Got that one covered. Looking in the mirror, and yeah, I am a guy, what was I thinking and why. I am not feeling it now, so why then??  Why now and not when I was younger? 

Pretty much everything you have described apart from not feeling a connection to dressing in women's clothing has made a connection to how I have felt previously. But even with the women's clothing, I would suddenly feel creeped out by what I was doing, how I was feeling and the feeling would change from comfort and relaxation to one of self loathing.

For nearly 30 years I tried just about everything I could to "fix" myself. Come to find out, I am fine as I am. The only thing that really needed fixing was me trying to fix something that isn't broken, just different than most.

If it is just a feeling on the inside and I don't want to feel that way, why then is so hard to get rid of? If I don't think I am a woman on the inside, why do I need to force myself to accept that I am especially if I don't want to? My therapist keeps telling me that feelings only come about when you believe your thoughts to be true. I don't believe my thoughts to be true, yet the feelings are still there. I have so much conflicting information coming at me from all angles I don't know what to believe.

Being trans is what somebody is and has nothing to do with choice.  If you are then you are and liking or disliking it makes no difference.  According to my psychologist, if you are then there is also no known way to make it go away.  So all you are left with is deciding what, if anything, to do with it.  That can range anywhere from simply accepting that it is and living with it to a full transition and all points in between.  Continuing to kick against the pricks though is entirely counterproductive. 

That is unless it is really something else like insanity.  But if it were that surely your therapist would have done something by now!


Sapere Aude

Quote from: jayne01 on May 23, 2016, 05:54:06 PM
If it is just a feeling on the inside and I don't want to feel that way, why then is so hard to get rid of?

Because the mind is an incredibly complex system and you can't just excise feelings and because you are generating those feelings and they are a part of you. The only way is the lessen the impact of those feelings by therapy.

QuoteIf I don't think I am a woman on the inside, why do I need to force myself to accept that I am especially if I don't want to?

If you don't want to be a woman then don't, but these feelings may indicate otherwise. Have you told your psychologists that you don't like those feelings and don't want to be a women?

QuoteMy therapist keeps telling me that feelings only come about when you believe your thoughts to be true. I don't believe my thoughts to be true, yet the feelings are still there.

I had this with not believing my thoughts we true and my feelings not real, but as Sherlock Holmes says when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth? A psychiatrist should be able to determine whether you are having something other than gender dysphoria as it seems your psychologist don't seem to be helping you.

Quote
I have so much conflicting information coming at me from all angles I don't know what to believe.

Sorry to be so confusing, all theories are working hypothesis until you've had them disproven apply the scientific method.

Hugs

Quote from: Deborah on May 23, 2016, 06:15:39 PM
Being trans is what somebody is and has nothing to do with choice.  If you are then you are and liking or disliking it makes no difference.  According to my psychologist, if you are then there is also no known way to make it go away.  So all you are left with is deciding what, if anything, to do with it.  That can range anywhere from simply accepting that it is and living with it to a full transition and all points in between.  Continuing to kick against the pricks though is entirely counterproductive. 

That is unless it is really something else like insanity.  But if it were that surely your therapist would have done something by now!


Sapere Aude

Yet no one can prove it. It doesn't make any sense at all. It is like saying the tooth fairy is real. I can't prove it but I have this strong feeling that the tooth fairy is real, so therefore it is real.

Obviously I am not understanding any of this. Either that, it I am incredibly stupid, which may also be a possibility. You all say that cis people would not understand what a trans person is feeling. I am not understanding what you are all telling me, isn't that more reason to believe I am not trans?

Quote from: PipTheCat on May 23, 2016, 06:49:28 PM

If you don't want to be a woman then don't, but these feelings may indicate otherwise. Have you told your psychologists that you don't like those feelings and don't want to be a women?

I tell them almost every single session. They keep telling me I need to accept it.

Quote
...A psychiatrist should be able to determine whether you are having something other than gender dysphoria as it seems your psychologist don't seem to be helping you.

Isn't a psychiatrist and a psychologist the same thing except that a psychiatrist is an MD and can prescribe medicine?

Quote from: jayne01 on May 23, 2016, 06:53:37 PM
I tell them almost every single session. They keep telling me I need to accept it.

it would seem then that they have given you the answer.  It's just not the one you wanted to hear.



Sapere Aude

Quote from: Deborah on May 23, 2016, 07:00:17 PM
it would seem then that they have given you the answer.  It's just not the one you wanted to hear.



Sapere Aude

Except when I ask the question if I am trans, all of a sudden it becomes a question they cannot answer.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 23, 2016, 07:03:31 PM
Except when I ask the question if I am trans, all of a sudden it becomes a question they cannot answer.

They can't tell you that...If they tell you that you are Trangender then its the same as a Diagnosis and no one who isn't qualified will give you a diagnosis because they can lose there license to practice. You need to have that MD after you name to make a Diagnosis

Liz

Quote from: ElizabethK on May 23, 2016, 08:16:55 PM
They can't tell you that...If they tell you that you are Trangender then its the same as a Diagnosis and no one who isn't qualified will give you a diagnosis because they can lose there license to practice. You need to have that MD after you name to make a Diagnosis

Liz

They have never made mention of that to me. So how do I go about finding someone who CAN make the diagnosis in Sydney?

MD - Medical professional, who has completed a degree in medicine - aka a doctor or psychiatrist not a psychologist - your pyschologist should be able to refer you - you may come away from the appointment with more than you bargained for though ;)

[hugs]

Sno

Quote from: Sno on May 24, 2016, 12:40:14 AM
...you may come away from the appointment with more than you bargained for though ;)

What do you mean by that?

Doctors can prescribe, and can make further referrals.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 24, 2016, 12:44:06 AM
What do you mean by that?

So they may seek the advice of an endocrinologist (or other professionals), and/ or prescribe drugs to help with any anxiety/depression that you may be feeling - all good things to medically help you.

My experience in the past ,(for something other than trans),  was it started with one appointment, and ended up as 5... I did feel cared for though, and listened too - all of which helped at the time.  :) It just came as a big surprise to me, to walk out of one appointment with a script for treatment and a raft of other appointments... thats all.

Sno

Oh ok. Thanks for that.

Quote from: Deborah on May 23, 2016, 07:00:17 PM
it would seem then that they have given you the answer.  It's just not the one you wanted to hear.



Sapere Aude

To paraphrase Dylan, you don't have to be a weatherman to know which way the wind blows. I agree.

Jane have you thought about what you would do if you get the diagnosis of Gender Dysphoria from a Psychiatrist who can refer you for HRT and Surgery?

Liz K

Quote from: ElizabethK on May 24, 2016, 04:58:29 PM
Jane have you thought about what you would do if you get the diagnosis of Gender Dysphoria from a Psychiatrist who can refer you for HRT and Surgery?

Liz K

That's an interesting path to explore for yourself, Jayne.  Treat it as a 'what if' and see where that might lead you.   Acceptance?  Would you try HRT?  Electrolysis?  Consider further steps, perhaps?

Quote from: jayne01 on May 23, 2016, 05:54:06 PM
If it is just a feeling on the inside and I don't want to feel that way, why then is so hard to get rid of? If I don't think I am a woman on the inside, why do I need to force myself to accept that I am especially if I don't want to? My therapist keeps telling me that feelings only come about when you believe your thoughts to be true. I don't believe my thoughts to be true, yet the feelings are still there. I have so much conflicting information coming at me from all angles I don't know what to believe.

Jayne, if they come up with the magic pill or potion or whatever to make it all go away, I will beat you to the line. Not because I do not like myself or feel it wrong, just because it makes life a challenge and if I can rid myself of the challenge and be like others, I will take it.

I am still somewhat new to all of this myself. I am only 3 and a half years into my own acceptance. And, I am more on the side of gender fluid, possibly non binary and can and do consider myself to be a crossdresser. To me though crossdressing is something that I do that comes from a source of gender variance, and it puts me in the spectrum of transgender. I do feel a strong feminine presence in my inner core of my identity. I had fought it tooth and nail for many many years. I didn't want these feelings anymore than you do not want them now.

I think I may have wrote this before, but I have went through the 5 stages of grief with this. Finally coming to a basic acceptance of myself. Denial, anger, bargaining, back and forth and back again I went through this in my head.

Acceptance, when it finally started to happen was not a simple switch that turned on. I still went through a lot of back and forth with it all. I remember driving to work many mornings thinking I was just a nutjob and needed to stop the insanity and get back to being a "normal" man. By the time I was driving home I was thinking of what I was going to wear lol.

All I can say is that now, 3 and a half years in, I have found so much more peace. It has allowed me to be a better person in just about every single way there is to be a better person. Letting go is so difficult Jayne, and the feelings because I am still new to this are still quite vivid for me. Letting go is frightening. Letting go makes you think you are going to fall into some horrible situation in life and ruin your life. Eventually, I lost the strength to hold on. Now, I wish I hadn't been so determined to hang on so long. I realized I spent many years fighting something that should never have been fought.

The conflict you speak of, I felt. Many of us have felt. It is you fighting yourself. I know it doesn't make any sense. It still makes no sense to me at all. It never will, other than I now understand I am not cis gender. That does not make me a bad person, nor does it to anyone else including you. It just makes you, you.

I feel like you're very focused on the idea that you don't want to be trans because you don't want to transition, but that's not really the case. Accepting this in yourself does not necessitate a transition. It just allows the confusion to disappear.

You want a definitive answer from somebody other than yourself, but there's none to be found because it's not possible. Let's say for arguments sake that someone can tell you that you are definitely transgendered, the line of thought other posters have suggested. Would you agree with that diagnosis or would you fight it? What if they added that you need to transition? Would you heed their advice and do it?

I get the feeling that you would not. I get the feeling that the idea of permanent facial hair removal and body altering hormones is completely out of the question in your opinion. You alone decide whether a transition happens, so why then is the diagnosis so important?

Quote from: Emileeeee on May 24, 2016, 06:15:38 PM
...so why then is the diagnosis so important?

It is important because I don't trust myself to know how to read my emotions. I'm not an emotional person, all this is so foreign to me.

Quote from: Emileeeee on May 24, 2016, 06:15:38 PM
I feel like you're very focused on the idea that you don't want to be trans because you don't want to transition, but that's not really the case. Accepting this in yourself does not necessitate a transition. It just allows the confusion to disappear.

It is not that I don't want to be trans. I just want to know one way or the other. It is true that I would never choose to be trans. I can't imagine anybody wanting to volunteer for that kind of complication in their lives. If I am trans then so be it, but I'm not ready to simply accept it based on some feeling that I do not trust.

Quote
You want a definitive answer from somebody other than yourself, but there's none to be found because it's not possible. Let's say for arguments sake that someone can tell you that you are definitely transgendered, the line of thought other posters have suggested. Would you agree with that diagnosis or would you fight it? What if they added that you need to transition? Would you heed their advice and do it?

If it is possible to receive a definite diagnosis, then why would I disagree with that? If it can be positively determined I am trans then of course I would accept it. It is the same as if a doctor examined me and took blood tests and biopsies, etc and then told me that I have cancer. I would not disagree, the proof is there. I would definitely not like it, but I would accept it and find ways to deal with it. Same with being trans, show me the proof and I will accept it and THEN find a way to deal with it. I was previously told in an earlier post not to put the cart before the horse. That is what I'm trying to do. There is an order to things. How can accept and deal with something before I know what that something is?

Quote
I get the feeling that you would not. I get the feeling that the idea of permanent facial hair removal and body altering hormones is completely out of the question in your opinion.

That is not true. Permanent facial hair removal doesn't sound like a bad idea whether I'm trans or not. I don't like beards at all and neither does my wife, and shaving is just a pain in the bum. So permanent facial hair removal kind of sounds like a good thing either way. Maybe I should look into it.

As far as hormones go, no, they are not out of the question at all, but there is NO WAY I would start taking hormones without being sure. That seems almost as extreme as surgery, not the same, but almost the same. I don't think that is something I could do without being 100% sure. Maybe with time my view might change about hormones, but at this stage I would not consider it unless I am 100% certain. That is different to being completely out of the question.

Full Disclosure - As it so happens I have very little respect for "Doctors" or other people of letters having worked too long in the medical device industry with them. Same goes for my wife, a nurse. Same again for the both of us on the patient side of things. Most doctors are.... never mind

Trust but Verify.

If some "Learned" person said to me "You have Double Berry Berry" and I was feeling great my first reaction will be WTF? Then I'll play 20 questions and do my own homework. If some "Learned" person told me I was perfectly OK, when I was feeling totally like crap, conveyed my signs and symptoms, perhaps it's nothing but.... I'd still do my homework.

Look at things another way. It is CLEAR you are not a cis male. Cis guys do not fret over the same feelings you are experiencing. So what does that leave you? Not Cis so......? Also known as 'Somewhere on the (trans) Spectrum". As I said before, the hard part is sorting out where. For many it is not clear cut

Quote from: JoanneB on May 24, 2016, 09:05:12 PM
Full Disclosure - As it so happens I have very little respect for "Doctors" or other people of letters having worked too long in the medical device industry with them. Same goes for my wife, a nurse. Same again for the both of us on the patient side of things. Most doctors are.... never mind

Trust but Verify.

If some "Learned" person said to me "You have Double Berry Berry" and I was feeling great my first reaction will be WTF? Then I'll play 20 questions and do my own homework. If some "Learned" person told me I was perfectly OK, when I was feeling totally like crap, conveyed my signs and symptoms, perhaps it's nothing but.... I'd still do my homework.

Look at things another way. It is CLEAR you are not a cis male. Cis guys do not fret over the same feelings you are experiencing. So what does that leave you? Not Cis so......? Also known as 'Somewhere on the (trans) Spectrum". As I said before, the hard part is sorting out where. For many it is not clear cut

Maybe I was a little unclear. While I would trust the opinion of a professional, I would also verify, like you said above. Maybe I have already done the "verify" part by simply feeling the way I do. While I would not blindly trust any opinion simply because the person has letters after their name, if their opinion verifies what I think I feel, it will go a hell of a long way to convince me my feelings are in fact real. I guess it goes back to the engineer in me, always making sure there is redundancy, a backup to the backup.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 24, 2016, 11:09:54 PM
it will go a hell of a long way to convince me my feelings are in fact real.

So it seems that you want someone to say that these feelings are real. Would it be better to ask your psychologists that question. Except I guess, by virtue of the fact that your psychologists say you have to accept these feelings would the inference be that they believe they are real.

I went through the same process to integrate my further tg feelings in to my psyche, I asked my psychiatrist whether my feelings could not be real. And he asked me what would make the feelings not real and I said brain defect and psychological disorder. He answer that he is capable of answering the second one after some sessions. The eventual answer was that there was no psychological disorder generating those feelings.

Btw I'm an engineer too. I have always had trouble, and still do, with integration and processing of feelings. I consider my self as a robot being on the whole emotionless except with these chaotic negative feelings popping in (a few good ones here and there) and having to deal with them with the wrong tools. I guess I feel akin to Data of Star Trek NG when he had his emotion chip and it eventually fused on and the problems he had, but he eventually got used to them and worked with them. And so have I learned to deal with feelings generated by my emotion chip. :)

Hugs

Quote from: JoanneB on May 24, 2016, 09:05:12 PM
Full Disclosure - As it so happens I have very little respect for "Doctors" or other people of letters having worked too long in the medical device industry with them. Same goes for my wife, a nurse. Same again for the both of us on the patient side of things. Most doctors are.... never mind

JoanneB I understand exactly where you are coming from. As an ex Psychiatric nurse I have met my fair share of "expert Drs"

Quote from: PipTheCat on May 25, 2016, 03:16:25 AM
...Except I guess, by virtue of the fact that your psychologists say you have to accept these feelings would the inference be that they believe they are real.

Why make inferences and not just come out and say it so there is no confusion?

Quote from: jayne01 on May 25, 2016, 04:54:48 AM
Why make inferences and not just come out and say it so there is no confusion?

From your posts is seems you've been asking am I transgender? That is a very different question to, are these feelings generated by some other psychological disorder and not gender dysphoria? If they say gender dysphoria then you can decide on how you deal with the feelings.

Quote from: PipTheCat on May 25, 2016, 05:16:43 AM
From your posts is seems you've been asking am I transgender? That is a very different question to, are these feelings generated by some other psychological disorder and not gender dysphoria? If they say gender dysphoria then you can decide on how you deal with the feelings.

I don't understand what you mean. Isn't gender dysphoria something only transgender people experience? I thought gender dysphoria and transgender go hand in hand.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 25, 2016, 05:37:54 AM
I don't understand what you mean. Isn't gender dysphoria something only transgender people experience? I thought gender dysphoria and transgender go hand in hand.

Gender Dysphoria is the diagnosis, Transgender is the identity label. True that some(most?) transgender identified people have gender dysphoria. But you can be fully transitioned to your affirmed gender and may not have gender dysphoria or have it to a lesser degree and maybe not even identify as transgender anymore. You could have gender dysphoria and not identify as transgender (maybe even have strategy to handle those gender dysphoria feelings).

Quote from: PipTheCat on May 25, 2016, 05:52:16 AM
Gender Dysphoria is the diagnosis, Transgender is the identity label. True that some(most?) transgender identified people have gender dysphoria. But you can be fully transitioned to your affirmed gender and may not have gender dysphoria and maybe not even identify as transgender anymore. You could have gender dysphoria and not identify as transgender (maybe even have strategy to handle those gender dysphoria feelings).

I'm still having trouble following. I am in so far over my head with this stuff. I hardly understand any of it.

I think I might just be having a monumental mid life crisis and got myself all twisted up. I have all these terms buzzing around in my head, not knowing what half of them mean. It feels like my head is going to explode! I can't take anymore!!!

I used to think I was a simple person. I knew the sky was blue, if I was thirsty I'd drink something, if I was hungry I'd eat something, the sun rise in the east and set in the west. Simple things. I like simple. Now I know I'm a male and I'm questioning if I am a woman or not!!!!!!! WTF??????? People are talking about gender identity like they might talk about the weather. Where is the simple in that?

I cannot relate to about 99% of the things I read on this forum. I keep checking here several times a day to look at the unread posts hoping to find something that I could maybe relate to. I think that if I can post on someone else's thread then maybe it will also help me better understand myself. I can never think of anything relevant to post. It seems that most people on here come from another planet, or more precisely, they all come from the same planet and I am the one from outer space somewhere. I don't feel like I belong here. You are all lovely people and have gone above and beyond to make me feel welcome and help me. Maybe the reason I am having such a hard time is because I am not transgender at all. If I was, then surely I would be able to relate better to at least some people on here. I read all of your replies, usually multiple times, to try and understand exactly what you are trying to say. Then reading my replies, it is clear that I don't understand most of what is being said. I'm not a stupid person but I certainly feel stupid when it comes to all things trans. I'm just not getting it.......

Quote from: jayne01 on May 25, 2016, 06:40:40 AM
I'm still having trouble following. I am in so far over my head with this stuff. I hardly understand any of it.?

Transgender is a spectrum and has many variations which can be hard to take in in a short period of time. Maybe you should start small rather than trying to understand it all at once. What is the most basic thing you want the know?

Quote
I think I might just be having a monumental mid life crisis and got myself all twisted up. I have all these terms buzzing around in my head, not knowing what half of them mean. It feels like my head is going to explode! I can't take anymore!!!

It can feel like a midlife crisis, I know it shakes your foundations. Maybe you to need a small break from things and recharge.

Quote
I cannot relate to about 99% of the things I read on this forum. I keep checking here several times a day to look at the unread posts hoping to find something that I could maybe relate to. I think that if I can post on someone else's thread then maybe it will also help me better understand myself.

I never related 100% to things I see here I just see bit of threads of relatedness in some posts which add up to a small correlation. I had a big hang up about not knowing about it when I was younger (although there were signs) and worried about not being trans enough cause I was non standard.

Hugs

Quote from: PipTheCat on May 25, 2016, 07:11:07 AM
Transgender is a spectrum and has many variations which can be hard to take in in a short period of time. Maybe you should start small rather than trying to understand it all at once. What is the most basic thing you want the know?

What is wrong with me? What is my problem? What am I? Why don't I understand any of this? Take your pick.

Quote
It can feel like a midlife crisis, I know it shakes your foundations. Maybe you to need a small break from things and recharge.

I have tried doing that. I can't stop thinking about it. I can't stop trying to answer the question. I'm not getting any younger and if I am transgender and if I do need to transition I don't want to waste anymore of my life. But I can't do anything unless I am sure. I'm kind of stuck in limbo not knowing anything and currently I am the worst person I could be, instead of being the best I could be. I'm stuck in no mans land. This whole thing sucks beyond what any words could ever hope to describe and the worst part of all is that my wife is being affected by stupid ass moronic actions. She deserves so much better than me. I have let her down in ways that I am finding unforgivable.

Quote
I never related 100% to things I see here I just see bit of threads of relatedness in some posts which add up to a small correlation. I had a big hang up about not knowing about it when I was younger (although there were signs) and worried about not being trans enough cause I was non standard.

Hugs

I am not expecting to relate 100% to things here, I'm saying I DON'T relate to nearly 100% of what I read. I can certainly understand the struggles people talk about, usually, but not in a way that I can relate to. Not in a way that makes me think, "I am transgender so I understand exactly what you are saying". I'm not getting that.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 25, 2016, 03:35:31 PM
What is wrong with me? What is my problem? What am I? Why don't I understand any of this? Take your pick.

I have tried doing that. I can't stop thinking about it. I can't stop trying to answer the question. I'm not getting any younger and if I am transgender and if I do need to transition I don't want to waste anymore of my life. But I can't do anything unless I am sure. I'm kind of stuck in limbo not knowing anything and currently I am the worst person I could be, instead of being the best I could be. I'm stuck in no mans land. This whole thing sucks beyond what any words could ever hope to describe and the worst part of all is that my wife is being affected by stupid ass moronic actions. She deserves so much better than me. I have let her down in ways that I am finding unforgivable.

I am not expecting to relate 100% to things here, I'm saying I DON'T relate to nearly 100% of what I read. I can certainly understand the struggles people talk about, usually, but not in a way that I can relate to. Not in a way that makes me think, "I am transgender so I understand exactly what you are saying". I'm not getting that.

Being transgender may be the least of your issues and I don't say that with malice. We've gone round and round here and its as if we're dealing with a 8 year old. Either you aren't telling us the whole story or you're a troll.  If there's more to why you don't or wont get it, tell us. It's like someone coming to me saying their head hurts and there's a fork sticking out of it, so I tell them so and they reply they don't believe me. That's whacky.


Sent from my iPhone, inspected and certified by the NSA

Quote from: Gertrude on May 25, 2016, 04:00:08 PM
Being transgender may be the least of your issues and I don't say that with malice. We've gone round and round here and its as if we're dealing with a 8 year old. Either you aren't telling us the whole story or you're a troll.  If there's more to why you don't or wont get it, tell us. It's like someone coming to me saying their head hurts and there's a fork sticking out of it, so I tell them so and they reply they don't believe me. That's whacky.


Sent from my iPhone, inspected and certified by the NSA

I don't know what a troll is, and I wish I was 8 years old, maybe as an 8 year old it would be easier to make me understand.

If a fork was sticking out of my head, it would be very obvious and a simple look in the mirror could verify that. There would not be anything to not believe. The proof would be right there, sticking out of my head.

Maybe it would be best if I leave here after all. I only seem to impact people's lives in a negative way and I'm sure the last thing any of you need is more trouble.....

Jane

Why do you not get yourself to a Psychiatrist well versed in gender issues who CAN give you the diagnosis?

Liz

Edit: it would be somewhere to start and they will be able to give you the definitive diagnosis you want.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 25, 2016, 03:35:31 PM
What is wrong with me? What is my problem? What am I? Why don't I understand any of this? Take your pick.

Your problem is that you are having these feelings and they are causing you distress. What are you unfortunately only you can answer that after a process of self discovery. Why don't you understand I don't know maybe you are expecting a simple answer that resonates with you.

Quote
I have tried doing that. I can't stop thinking about it. I can't stop trying to answer the question. I'm not getting any younger and if I am transgender and if I do need to transition I don't want to waste anymore of my life. But I can't do anything unless I am sure. I'm kind of stuck in limbo not knowing anything and currently I am the worst person I could be, instead of being the best I could be. I'm stuck in no mans land. This whole thing sucks beyond what any words could ever hope to describe and the worst part of all is that my wife is being affected by stupid ass moronic actions. She deserves so much better than me. I have let her down in ways that I am finding unforgivable.

You sound like you are wanting to have this stuff easily resolved into a black or white answer which in life rarely happens, things in life are always probabilities and have risks and sometimes there are easy choices and others are hard. And it is usually a lengthy process (maybe over many years) to come to terms with these feelings and maybe accept that your transgender. With your wife, you may be projecting your feelings of lack of resolution of this process onto your wife who sounds like she loves you and is supportive of you through this process.

Quote
I am not expecting to relate 100% to things here, I'm saying I DON'T relate to nearly 100% of what I read. I can certainly understand the struggles people talk about, usually, but not in a way that I can relate to. Not in a way that makes me think, "I am transgender so I understand exactly what you are saying". I'm not getting that.

But you do relate to a small fraction. Maybe the answer lies in that small fraction.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 25, 2016, 04:13:03 PM
I don't know what a troll is, and I wish I was 8 years old, maybe as an 8 year old it would be easier to make me understand.

A troll is someone who creates false posts for the enjoyment of getting replies and sometimes incite anger and frustration in the respondent. Feeding the troll is replying to said posts. It can be like you're 8 years old because these feelings are so new and scary.

Quote
If a fork was sticking out of my head, it would be very obvious and a simple look in the mirror could verify that. There would not be anything to not believe. The proof would be right there, sticking out of my head.

But these feelings are not a simple case of a fork in the head. Sometimes doctors and patients are stumped for answers and it involves a protracted investigation to identify the cause and sometimes they can't find the answer. Things regarding the mind are doubly more so. I know I had both.

Quote
Maybe it would be best if I leave here after all. I only seem to impact people's lives in a negative way and I'm sure the last thing any of you need is more trouble.....

To leave that is your choice to make, but I find it no trouble as yet and are not negative affected. If you want to pm questions and not "bother" others feel free but you may miss out on others pearls of wisdom.

Hugs.

Quote from: ElizabethK on May 25, 2016, 05:46:56 PM
Jane

Why do you not get yourself to a Psychiatrist well versed in gender issues who CAN give you the diagnosis?

Liz

Edit: it would be somewhere to start and they will be able to give you the definitive diagnosis you want.

How do I do that? It was hard enough to find a psychologist who understands gender issues. I asked my GP and they didn't know anyone, I searched the web and contacted several psychologists. It was only by chance that I eventually contacted a psychologist who had previously worked with the person I am seeing now.

Does anybody here know of any psychiatrists who know about gender issues in Sydney?

+1 for ElizabethK's suggestion of a psychiatrist.

My gender experienced psychologist gave me a name of a gender experienced psychiatrist to take to my GP who then referred me to the psychiatrist.

Quote from: PipTheCat on May 25, 2016, 05:50:04 PM

A troll is someone who creates false posts for the enjoyment of getting replies and sometimes incite anger and frustration in the respondent. Feeding the troll is replying to said posts.

That is messed up. I'm definitely not a troll.

I feel for you, I hate Jargon, and there is lots of jargon in psychology.

Some of those terms are well used, and conceptually understood, but lack of research, means there is little proof (in a rigorous scientific sense), just overwhelming balance of probability (empirical observational science). These results are still scientifically valid, if the correct control test has been performed.

Likewise on the web, and social media there are terms that have been developed to describe behaviour - a quick Google will tell you what the current meaning is.

Google will help immensely with searching for "psychiatrists in Sydney who help with Gender identity issues"

Your perception that you are a negative impact, is because you are dysphoric - you have a profound sense of unease about yourself, and you are trying to rationalise it to feel better. Thats your struggle, and your journey; we will support you as much as we can, we are not professionals though :)

[hugs]

Sno

Quote from: jayne01 on May 25, 2016, 06:00:20 PM
How do I do that? It was hard enough to find a psychologist who understands gender issues. I asked my GP and they didn't know anyone, I searched the web and contacted several psychologists. It was only by chance that I eventually contacted a psychologist who had previously worked with the person I am seeing now.

Does anybody here know of any psychiatrists who know about gender issues in Sydney?

http://www.gendercentre.org.au/ (http://www.gendercentre.org.au/)

Contact them. If they' are like the Q Center over here, they'll help. In fact....

http://www.gendercentre.org.au/support/male-to-female-support.htm (http://www.gendercentre.org.au/support/male-to-female-support.htm)

Quote from: jayne01 on May 25, 2016, 06:00:20 PM
How do I do that? It was hard enough to find a psychologist who understands gender issues. I asked my GP and they didn't know anyone, I searched the web and contacted several psychologists. It was only by chance that I eventually contacted a psychologist who had previously worked with the person I am seeing now.

Does anybody here know of any psychiatrists who know about gender issues in Sydney?

Don't know if the info is any good but worth a try

A third source of information in case the other two don't help:

Dr Tracie O'Keefe DCH, BCH, NSHAP ADV DIP THP,
RMCAPA, IADCH
Doctor of Clinical Hypnotherapy, Psychotherapist & Counsellor
Director, Australian Health & Education Centre
Professor of Sex, Gender & Sexuality, Calamus International University
Australian Health & Education Centre
3 Glebe Place
131-145 Glebe Point Road
Glebe
Sydney
NSW 2037
Australia
Tel +61 (0) 2) 9562 6802
Fax +61 (0) 2 9399 6587
E-mail info@tracieokeefe.com
Website www.tracieokeefe.com

Quote from: ryokohimura on May 25, 2016, 07:09:55 PM
http://www.gendercentre.org.au/ (http://www.gendercentre.org.au/)

Contact them. If they' are like the Q Center over here, they'll help. In fact....

http://www.gendercentre.org.au/support/male-to-female-support.htm (http://www.gendercentre.org.au/support/male-to-female-support.htm)

Thanks for that. I have tried contacting them in the past. They never returned any of my calls or replied to any emails I sent.

Quote from: ElizabethK on May 25, 2016, 07:28:59 PM
Don't know if the info is any good but worth a try

A third source of information in case the other two don't help:

Dr Tracie O'Keefe DCH, BCH, NSHAP ADV DIP THP,
RMCAPA, IADCH
Doctor of Clinical Hypnotherapy, Psychotherapist & Counsellor
Director, Australian Health & Education Centre
Professor of Sex, Gender & Sexuality, Calamus International University
Australian Health & Education Centre
3 Glebe Place
131-145 Glebe Point Road
Glebe
Sydney
NSW 2037
Australia
Tel +61 (0) 2) 9562 6802
Fax +61 (0) 2 9399 6587
E-mail info@tracieokeefe.com
Website www.tracieokeefe.com

I have heard some interesting stories about her, and not in a good way. I won't repeat what I have read incase it is not all true, but what I read basically told me to beware of her qualifications. I'll leave it at that. Besides, she isn't a psychiatrist anyway.

Thank you anyway.

I had a hard time finding therapists in the past too. The site people kept referring me to was littered with lots of people with a transsexual specialty listed and all the ones I tried clearly had no idea what I was talking about. I ended up getting a referral from here to finally find a legitimate one. I'm not in Australia though.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 25, 2016, 07:41:04 PM
I have heard some interesting stories about her, and not in a good way. I won't repeat what I have read incase it is not all true, but what I read basically told me to beware of her qualifications. I'll leave it at that. Besides, she isn't a psychiatrist anyway.

Thank you anyway.

Thats a pity I thought it might be a starting point...I have a friend in the Psych system in QLD who I will talk to and when I was looking for one myself I found a few in Sydney Brisbane...not sure if any of them were any good but will see if I can find the resources I used and will pass along anything I can find out.

Liz K

Edit: what about contact a Psychiatrist locally then just going and having a chat. Doesn't have to be in huge detail he may be able to say yes I can help you or no I can't but this person can...just a thought

Quote from: ElizabethK on May 25, 2016, 10:21:06 PM
Thats a pity I thought it might be a starting point...I have a friend in the Psych system in QLD who I will talk to and when I was looking for one myself I found a few in Sydney Brisbane...not sure if any of them were any good but will see if I can find the resources I used and will pass along anything I can find out.

Liz K

Hey Liz,

Thanks for that. I just want to be clear, the psychologists I am seeing now are very good, specialise in gender stuff and are really lovely people too. The only thing is they are psychologists not psychiatrists, so they are not MDs. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend them to anyone in need of help with gender stuff.

I just seem to be a unique kind of crazy, and if only an MD is authorised to give me any kind of diagnosis, then I'm willing to give it a try.

I don't want anybody jumping to any conclusions and think that my therapists are not up to the task, they just to have the letters MD after their name. As you can tell by the length of this thread, I am pretty screwed up between the ears, so I need all the help I can get.

Hiya,

I've done some googling, found an online resource called HealthKit (no affiliation), which has a psychiatrist called Dr Robert Wenden in Sydney CBD, who has on his listing that he expertise in gender issues. If nothing else, it's a name and a starting place.

There is also an organisation called mind care, which seems to employ a lot of professors in psychiatry from the local universities, and could also be worth calling...

Take care

Sno

Quote from: Sno on May 25, 2016, 11:51:34 PM
Hiya,

I've done some googling, found an online resource called HealthKit (no affiliation), which has a psychiatrist called Dr Robert Wenden in Sydney CBD, who has on his listing that he expertise in gender issues. If nothing else, it's a name and a starting place.

There is also an organisation called mind care, which seems to employ a lot of professors in psychiatry from the local universities, and could also be worth calling...

Take care

Sno

Hey Sno,

Thanks for that information.

Jayne, i still think you need to stop thrashing these questions and that that's something that therapy can be good for. Also that seems like where you can learn how to better relate to your emotions.

Anyhow, for what it's worth as I'm contemplating letters in support of surgery, my psychiatrist isn't a specialist in gender and has asked me to arrange to also consult with someone who is. That will probably be a psychologist but I don't need a diagnosis, just an opinion on whether my somewhat non standard approach to 12 mo RLE will qualify me for the letters.

The path isn't the same for all people, I hope you can start to see that.

Quote from: SadieBlake on May 26, 2016, 07:10:26 AM
Jayne, i still think you need to stop thrashing these questions and that that's something that therapy can be good for. Also that seems like where you can learn how to better relate to your emotions.

One of my psychologists is working on exactly that. It's not easy, most times, if there's any kind of connection to my emotions during the session, usually by the time I walk out into the street after the session, any connection I had is lost and I'm back to same ole me. It happens as quickly as flipping a switch, and I don't do it consciously, it just happens. Mind you, after my last session a couple of days ago, I did actually notice when this "switch" flipped. I never noticed it happening before that, it just happened. I suppose that is some kind of progress, even if it is at a painfully slow pace :)

Quote
Anyhow, for what it's worth as I'm contemplating letters in support of surgery, my psychiatrist isn't a specialist in gender and has asked me to arrange to also consult with someone who is. That will probably be a psychologist but I don't need a diagnosis, just an opinion on whether my somewhat non standard approach to 12 mo RLE will qualify me for the letters.

The path isn't the same for all people, I hope you can start to see that.

I wish you luck with getting whatever letters you may need and hope everything goes a smoothly as possible for you.

That's great - progress in therapy - it's not easy but surely worth it.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 25, 2016, 10:32:05 PM
Hey Liz,

Thanks for that. I just want to be clear, the psychologists I am seeing now are very good, specialise in gender stuff and are really lovely people too. The only thing is they are psychologists not psychiatrists, so they are not MDs. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend them to anyone in need of help with gender stuff.

I just seem to be a unique kind of crazy, and if only an MD is authorised to give me any kind of diagnosis, then I'm willing to give it a try.

I don't want anybody jumping to any conclusions and think that my therapists are not up to the task, they just to have the letters MD after their name. As you can tell by the length of this thread, I am pretty screwed up between the ears, so I need all the help I can get.

Jane I can relate to what you are saying. When my journey first started I was on another board and the number of posts I made about my doubts...one wanting to transition...the next screaming at myself I am just losing my mind...Knowing I am trans but not wanting to be and all the rest. This went on for a couple of months and then I began to understand Once I understood the process I needed to follow then I was able to focus on one part at a time. In South Australia you need to see one of only two Psychys who are able to give the "go ahead" that you are now ready for HRT and Surgery. Once I knew the path to take it made things much easier. I think once you get to speak to someone who can give you the right info you may find it easier to find your own path.

Regard Liz

I saw both my therapists today. Last week I sent them both an email saying that today will be my final session. I had my mind set that u was going to stop therapy and try and put all this "nonsense" behind me. On my way to the appointments today I decided that I will just see how things go and make another appointment if I think it will help. They are both such lovely people and really are very good psychologists. I made appointments with both to see them again.

I think I had somewhat of a breakthrough today. During my first session today, I actually said out loud to my therapist that deep down I want to be a woman. That was so hard for me to actually get the words out. When I saw my other therapist an hour later, I wanted to say the words out loud again just to boost my confidence. It took the whole hour long session for me to built up the courage, but I did manage to get the words out again. I also asked her if she thinks I am transgender. I didn't want any legally binding official diagnosis, just her gut feeling. She told me "yes" in a way that convinced me she truly believes it and she also proceeded to explain why she thinks I am and gave me some examples of what she has observed in me. That was incredibly helpful for me to hear her give me her opinion.

I also decided to change my thinking a little. I have many time in the past said that "I am transgender" and then follow up with a whole bunch of reasons why it couldn't possibly be true. This time, rather than just tell myself that "I am transgender", (even though I heard it directly from my psychologist), I will just tell myself that there is very high probability that I am transgender. I figure that way my engineer brain cannot argue with that statement. By definition, for there to be a "probable" outcome, a series of facts are considered as well as an element of guessing. That reasoning seems to make sense to me, at least for now. I don't want to force myself to try and believe something that I am not fully ready to believe because as I have previously demonstrated, I end up putting up a great deal of resistance. Probably Trans works for me right now.

I realise what I just wrote is pretty much what most of you have been trying to tell me all along. Unless I can find a way to explain it to myself in my own way, then it just doesn't sink in.

It is true that I indeed have some kind of feeling deep inside that makes me want to be female. Maybe I can find some way to make peace with that without making any physical changes, or minimal change.

It really was a great help to hear my psychologist tell me that she really believes I am trans, and that all my behaviours are typical of a trans person who is struggling to come to terms with themselves.

I am so glad you are making what sounds like real progress. It is an absurdly difficult thing to come to terms with and you deserve some peace. You have hung in there for so long now.

I know for myself telling someone out loud can be incredibly intimidating but I also found it incredibly good for my psyche. You may not want to transition, you may well be happy enough in yourself just to know. But it is one of those kind of things to have to "try before you buy". The only real way to know what will make you happy and how far you need to go is to find somewhere safe and experiment as to what makes you happy...do you have Dysphoria? If so you may want to experiment with what you need to do to relieve it.

Good luck and I hope you can now keep moving forward

Liz

Thanks Liz. This has all been so hard for me, but I don't need to tell anybody on here about difficulties with being trans.

I will certainly try to keep moving slowly forward without continuously making huge backwards steps.

I am happy to hear about your progress.  I have been reading this thread and there are so many similarities I see.  I think when we get to a certain point, we somehow know the truth, but every fabric in our body is programmed to force us not to believe.  In my case, at 44, with wife, kids, career.  My common sense is constantly telling me that I am crazy to want to go down this path.  But that same common sense (also being an engineer) is telling me that it is the right thing to do. (I'm pre HRT, just starting the discovery process)

I have never been a selfish person, never treated myself to much.  Worked very hard for my family and friends.  But now there is this urge, more powerful than I could ever imagine that's pulling me in the direction of finally doing something for myself.

Someone posted this quote in another thread, so I won't take credit, but it really rang true for me.

- The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now.


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Quote from: jayne01 on June 02, 2016, 02:21:14 AM
I think I had somewhat of a breakthrough today. During my first session today, I actually said out loud to my therapist that deep down I want to be a woman. That was so hard for me to actually get the words out. When I saw my other therapist an hour later, I wanted to say the words out loud again just to boost my confidence. It took the whole hour long session for me to built up the courage, but I did manage to get the words out again.

I so understand this Jayne - verbalizing the thing you've set aside for that long is maybe the hardest thing in the world to do

Quote
I also asked her if she thinks I am transgender. I didn't want any legally binding official diagnosis, just her gut feeling. She told me "yes" in a way that convinced me she truly believes it and she also proceeded to explain why she thinks I am and gave me some examples of what she has observed in me. That was incredibly helpful for me to hear her give me her opinion.

I also decided to change my thinking a little. I have many time in the past said that "I am transgender" and then follow up with a whole bunch of reasons why it couldn't possibly be true. This time, rather than just tell myself that "I am transgender", (even though I heard it directly from my psychologist), I will just tell myself that there is very high probability that I am transgender. I figure that way my engineer brain cannot argue with that statement.

I do something similar, for me now the conversation isn't so much "am I trans?" -- it use to be -- now it's "how can I be more happy as trans?" My decision to begin HRT wasn't an easy one, it took me 20 years to get there and I'm somewhat rushing into the question of surgery and I'm extremely uncomfortable with my choices right now.

Quote
I realise what I just wrote is pretty much what most of you have been trying to tell me all along. Unless I can find a way to explain it to myself in my own way, then it just doesn't sink in.
....

Which is an important truth. We have to do our own heavy lifting in this and my language isn't going to make sense for you -- until it does.

You should know that your thread here has helped me also, I said I'm extremely uncomfortable. I'm scared stiff of surgery - I've suffered a few profound injuries over the years and surgeries to repair them, I know how much pain is involved and I know there's no guarantee of what the outcome looks like.

You remind me of how much I have been and still am limited by my default of needing to solve problems, seeing every thing that happens as an opportunity looking for a solution and how yes being good at that is a powerful tool but not an unlimited one.

Jayne,

It must have been a relief to hear your therapist voice her observations. I'm glad to hear you seem to have found a way to word your own in a way that doesn't automatically trigger as much resistance. That "probably" can really make a difference.

While I don't write very often I do follow this thread closely, and sincerely hope you can find the peace you need.

Your therapist has likely had that thought of you being transgender since your 1st visit, or at least the 1st time you mentioned anything cross gender related.  They were waiting for you to be able to come to terms with it yourself.  Now, your therapist will likely be more helpful for you. As for making any changes or altering your life, and to what extent if any, that is up to you. Being transgender doesn't have any qualifiers, or pre requisite. Your 1st real step forward has been made. There will likely be times you will still feel like pulling back, and really, that is fine too. Eventually you will find the place you need to be, wherever that is.

Wow. Big day for you :)

Now the journey begins to make peace with that - we're here for you every step of the way

Sno

I am so grateful for the support you have all given me. I know at times I must have sounded like a child having a tantrum. In all my posts, everything I wrote is what I believed to be true (at the time).

What is true as I see it now is that there is definitely a part of me that feels female. I don't know how big that part of me is, and I won't try to define it by saying I am x% or y% female. Right now it is an unknown percentage. If I just give it some time to sink in, then I might be less inclined to do another complete backflip and go back into full denial mode. What is also true, as most of you have been saying all along, is that by acknowledging that I am (probably) trans does not mean I have to go out and do a full transition. Maybe just acknowledging the very likely probability without constantly trying to fight it might be enough. By the way, this last paragraph I wrote more for my own benefit than anything else.

Thank you all for your help. Everything you have all posted here makes more sense to me now than it did before.

Jayne

 :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap:

Quote from: jayne01 on June 02, 2016, 02:21:14 AM
I saw both my therapists today. Last week I sent them both an email saying that today will be my final session. I had my mind set that u was going to stop therapy and try and put all this "nonsense" behind me. On my way to the appointments today I decided that I will just see how things go and make another appointment if I think it will help. They are both such lovely people and really are very good psychologists. I made appointments with both to see them again.

I think I had somewhat of a breakthrough today. During my first session today, I actually said out loud to my therapist that deep down I want to be a woman. That was so hard for me to actually get the words out. When I saw my other therapist an hour later, I wanted to say the words out loud again just to boost my confidence. It took the whole hour long session for me to built up the courage, but I did manage to get the words out again. I also asked her if she thinks I am transgender. I didn't want any legally binding official diagnosis, just her gut feeling. She told me "yes" in a way that convinced me she truly believes it and she also proceeded to explain why she thinks I am and gave me some examples of what she has observed in me. That was incredibly helpful for me to hear her give me her opinion.

I also decided to change my thinking a little. I have many time in the past said that "I am transgender" and then follow up with a whole bunch of reasons why it couldn't possibly be true. This time, rather than just tell myself that "I am transgender", (even though I heard it directly from my psychologist), I will just tell myself that there is very high probability that I am transgender. I figure that way my engineer brain cannot argue with that statement. By definition, for there to be a "probable" outcome, a series of facts are considered as well as an element of guessing. That reasoning seems to make sense to me, at least for now. I don't want to force myself to try and believe something that I am not fully ready to believe because as I have previously demonstrated, I end up putting up a great deal of resistance. Probably Trans works for me right now.

I realise what I just wrote is pretty much what most of you have been trying to tell me all along. Unless I can find a way to explain it to myself in my own way, then it just doesn't sink in.

It is true that I indeed have some kind of feeling deep inside that makes me want to be female. Maybe I can find some way to make peace with that without making any physical changes, or minimal change.

It really was a great help to hear my psychologist tell me that she really believes I am trans, and that all my behaviours are typical of a trans person who is struggling to come to terms with themselves.

Sounds like a catharsis. Thats good. Admitting who you are to yourself is the first step. As someone that's aspie and trans, I understand the reticence to a degree but you fought it tooth and nail. You must feel a lot better.


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Quote from: Gertrude on June 03, 2016, 12:13:00 PM
Sounds like a catharsis. Thats good. Admitting who you are to yourself is the first step. As someone that's aspie and trans, I understand the reticence to a degree but you fought it tooth and nail. You must feel a lot better.


Sent from my iPhone, inspected and certified by the NSA

Yes, I do feel much better. I am being careful and trying not to think too far ahead into the future and just go day to day for the moment. I think that may have been my downfall with past attempts at trying to accept myself. I would end up thinking of endless scenarios of how being trans would ruin my life that I ended back up in full denial. This time, I am making an effort to keep a very short leash on my brain. I really want to make it more than a week without going into denial. A week is the longest I have ever gone. If I make it past the week, then I will be more confident to give myself permission to just be happy being me.

I am going to try wearing women's clothes again, but nothing too girly. My wife is helping me pick out some women's jeans and yesterday we picked out a nice top for me to wear. I am probably only one size bigger than my wife, and she told me I can try her jeans on to get an idea about sizing. Yesterday we also bought a necklace for me to wear. It is only simple, and any guy could get away with wearing it, but it's a big deal for me. The only jewellery I have ever worn is my wedding ring. My wife said that I should get some kind of pendant to hang off the necklace. We are going to have a look today. I am so incredibly lucky to be married to such an incredible person. She loves "me!", and doesn't care what packaging I come wrapped in. Words cannot express how deeply I love my wife.

It feels really good to start accepting that I am who I am and not trying to beat myself up over it. I won't start celebrating yet, until I at least get past that one week mark. Baby steps.....

Quote from: jayne01 on June 03, 2016, 03:04:04 PM
Yes, I do feel much better. I am being careful and trying not to think too far ahead into the future and just go day to day for the moment. I think that may have been my downfall with past attempts at trying to accept myself. I would end up thinking of endless scenarios of how being trans would ruin my life that I ended back up in full denial. This time, I am making an effort to keep a very short leash on my brain. I really want to make it more than a week without going into denial. A week is the longest I have ever gone. If I make it past the week, then I will be more confident to give myself permission to just be happy being me.

I am going to try wearing women's clothes again, but nothing too girly. My wife is helping me pick out some women's jeans and yesterday we picked out a nice top for me to wear. I am probably only one size bigger than my wife, and she told me I can try her jeans on to get an idea about sizing. Yesterday we also bought a necklace for me to wear. It is only simple, and any guy could get away with wearing it, but it's a big deal for me. The only jewellery I have ever worn is my wedding ring. My wife said that I should get some kind of pendant to hang off the necklace. We are going to have a look today. I am so incredibly lucky to be married to such an incredible person. She loves "me!", and doesn't care what packaging I come wrapped in. Words cannot express how deeply I love my wife.

It feels really good to start accepting that I am who I am and not trying to beat myself up over it. I won't start celebrating yet, until I at least get past that one week mark. Baby steps.....

You're fortunate to have such a accepting spouse and one whose size is close to yours. :) theres an old saying, if it walks like duck, talks like a duck and quacks like a duck, its a duck, or, just apply occam's razor. I don't think the problem was one of logic, but of social consequences. Fear is a lot stronger than logic. Glad to read that you're moving ahead.


Sent from my iPhone, inspected and certified by the NSA

I am learning all kinds of things on this forum. I have never consulted a dictionary so frequently as I have in the past few weeks on this forum. Also, I never heard of Occam's Razor until now. So besides helping me with all the trans stuff, thank you for just improving my vocabulary and general knowledge.
:)

Quote from: jayne01 on June 03, 2016, 03:04:04 PM
Yes, I do feel much better. I am being careful and trying not to think too far ahead into the future and just go day to day for the moment. I think that may have been my downfall with past attempts at trying to accept myself. I would end up thinking of endless scenarios of how being trans would ruin my life that I ended back up in full denial. This time, I am making an effort to keep a very short leash on my brain. I really want to make it more than a week without going into denial. A week is the longest I have ever gone. If I make it past the week, then I will be more confident to give myself permission to just be happy being me.

I am going to try wearing women's clothes again, but nothing too girly. My wife is helping me pick out some women's jeans and yesterday we picked out a nice top for me to wear. I am probably only one size bigger than my wife, and she told me I can try her jeans on to get an idea about sizing. Yesterday we also bought a necklace for me to wear. It is only simple, and any guy could get away with wearing it, but it's a big deal for me. The only jewellery I have ever worn is my wedding ring. My wife said that I should get some kind of pendant to hang off the necklace. We are going to have a look today. I am so incredibly lucky to be married to such an incredible person. She loves "me!", and doesn't care what packaging I come wrapped in. Words cannot express how deeply I love my wife.

It feels really good to start accepting that I am who I am and not trying to beat myself up over it. I won't start celebrating yet, until I at least get past that one week mark. Baby steps.....

Great job, Jayne! Your current acceptance seems more fortified and less euphoric than prior ones, so I think your regressions might now be less severe. Just in case, though, take this opportunity to join a support group, so you can gain even more reinforcement.

Let us know when you pass the one week mark. Good luck!  :)

Quote from: autumn08 on June 03, 2016, 04:33:18 PM

Let us know when you pass the one week mark. Good luck!  :)

Will do. Thank you for all your support so far. I have not been very receptive to all your comments in the past, but I guess it's a process I need to go through, right?

I know one week is not very long, but if I make it one week, then I can make it two weeks, then maybe a month and who knows, it might even become permanent. I'll just focus on one week for now...

Quote from: jayne01 on June 03, 2016, 04:38:35 PM
Will do. Thank you for all your support so far. I have not been very receptive to all your comments in the past, but I guess it's a process I need to go through, right?

I know one week is not very long, but if I make it one week, then I can make it two weeks, then maybe a month and who knows, it might even become permanent. I'll just focus on one week for now...

Don't worry about it. To support you through your process, I tried to be as lucid as I could, but I didn't expect to give you more than a little clarity, as I know I can be opaque and I felt you needed the addition of an influence outside of this forum, before you accepted yourself.

Great job creating manageable steps. I'm really happy for you, Jayne.

Jayne, if it helps, Men and women are more alike than not, really. We both breathe the same air, both have arms and legs, hands. We eat the same kind of food, speak the same lanquage, (sorta lol) Other than anatomy, women and men, the difference is really a series of nuances. It is just that we who are TG line up better with that which is opposite our birth gender. When we let go, and allow ourselves to be who we are lined up with, life indeed is more tolerable.

My wife and I went shopping over the weekend to get me some clothes. I wanted to try women's clothes again. This time I tried for something much less feminine and more appropriate for my age and body. We bought some women's jeans and some tops. I liked the way they looked and I actually did feel kind of good wearing them. I even managed to take some things to the fitting rooms to try them on before buying. The stores we went to catered to both men and women, so it wasn't so bad at all. We also bought a simple chain necklace for me, and my wife suggested it would look better if it had a pendant, so we also bought a pendant. When we got home she gave me a charm off one of her charm bracelets to also hang from my necklace. She had charms that were the initials of our names. She kept my initial on her bracelet and gave me her initial for my necklace. That made me so happy.

The next day I was home all day, so I wore my new clothes at home. The car needed some fuel, so we both went for a drive to the service station to fill up. I didn't bother changing, I wore my new clothes out, filled the car up with fuel and went into the shop to pay. I passed some other customers along the way and briefly spoke with the attendant behind the counter. I was a little nervous, but not as much as I thought I would be. I kept reminding myself that most people on earth probably can't tell the difference between men's and women's jeans, and the top I was wearing wasn't overly feminine. If someone stopped and looked at me, they could tell it was a lady's top, but nobody stopped, and people are too caught up in their own lives to really care what clothes others are wearing. It felt good. For the first time in my life I got a glimpse of what it might feel like to just be me.

I see my therapist again on Friday which will also be one week and one day since my latest attempt at acceptance. I would like to wear my new clothes to the session. That involves a train ride and about a 5 minute walk from the train station.

I really want to make it past this imaginary one week barrier I have created in my mind. I think I can do it. Everything feels different now compared to my previous attempts. It feels more like a genuine feeling of acceptance rather than me just saying the words and hoping I start believing them. I have deliberately avoided saying the words "I am transgender". Instead I think I might be learning to listen to and understand my feelings. It is vary scary because this is all unchartered territory for me. It does, however, feel good to let the real me out of prison.

I'm at work today wearing my work uniform. I am looking forward to getting home and changing into my new clothes. I am wearing my necklace at work, it is under my shirt so nobody can see it, but I know it's there. It is kind of a big step for me, because I never, ever wear any jewellery other than my wedding ring. And I don't even wear my wedding ring at work for safety reasons.

My wife tells me that this is just part of who I am and that I am a package deal........and she still loves me and wants to be with me! That has given me so much joy! She makes me so incredibly happy. I am so lucky to have her in my life.

Anyway, I thought I would post something positive instead of my usual negative rants I tend to go into.

Quote from: jayne01 on June 05, 2016, 08:23:15 PM
For the first time in my life I got a glimpse of what it might feel like to just be me.

Take that feeling, remember it when youre trying something new. Just from looking at your post, you are obviously feeling good about it.

QuoteI see my therapist again on Friday which will also be one week and one day since my latest attempt at acceptance. I would like to wear my new clothes to the session. That involves a train ride and about a 5 minute walk from the train station

And the walk will be fine, I'm sure you can do it.

QuoteIt does, however, feel good to let the real me out.

Yay!

Sno

Thank you for sharing, Jayne. You're doing great! 

What prevented me from acknowledging my feminine side for 21 years and sometimes still makes me feel awkward, was not being accustomed to doing things directly for myself, so I'm envious that you married Melanie Wilkes (Gone with the Wind), with whom you can share your happiness.

Quote from: jayne01 on June 05, 2016, 08:23:15 PM
My wife and I went shopping over the weekend to get me some clothes. I wanted to try women's clothes again. This time I tried for something much less feminine and more appropriate for my age and body. We bought some women's jeans and some tops. I liked the way they looked and I actually did feel kind of good wearing them. I even managed to take some things to the fitting rooms to try them on before buying. The stores we went to catered to both men and women, so it wasn't so bad at all. We also bought a simple chain necklace for me, and my wife suggested it would look better if it had a pendant, so we also bought a pendant. When we got home she gave me a charm off one of her charm bracelets to also hang from my necklace. She had charms that were the initials of our names. She kept my initial on her bracelet and gave me her initial for my necklace. That made me so happy.

The next day I was home all day, so I wore my new clothes at home. The car needed some fuel, so we both went for a drive to the service station to fill up. I didn't bother changing, I wore my new clothes out, filled the car up with fuel and went into the shop to pay. I passed some other customers along the way and briefly spoke with the attendant behind the counter. I was a little nervous, but not as much as I thought I would be. I kept reminding myself that most people on earth probably can't tell the difference between men's and women's jeans, and the top I was wearing wasn't overly feminine. If someone stopped and looked at me, they could tell it was a lady's top, but nobody stopped, and people are too caught up in their own lives to really care what clothes others are wearing. It felt good. For the first time in my life I got a glimpse of what it might feel like to just be me.

I see my therapist again on Friday which will also be one week and one day since my latest attempt at acceptance. I would like to wear my new clothes to the session. That involves a train ride and about a 5 minute walk from the train station.

I really want to make it past this imaginary one week barrier I have created in my mind. I think I can do it. Everything feels different now compared to my previous attempts. It feels more like a genuine feeling of acceptance rather than me just saying the words and hoping I start believing them. I have deliberately avoided saying the words "I am transgender". Instead I think I might be learning to listen to and understand my feelings. It is vary scary because this is all unchartered territory for me. It does, however, feel good to let the real me out of prison.

I'm at work today wearing my work uniform. I am looking forward to getting home and changing into my new clothes. I am wearing my necklace at work, it is under my shirt so nobody can see it, but I know it's there. It is kind of a big step for me, because I never, ever wear any jewellery other than my wedding ring. And I don't even wear my wedding ring at work for safety reasons.

My wife tells me that this is just part of who I am and that I am a package deal........and she still loves me and wants to be with me! That has given me so much joy! She makes me so incredibly happy. I am so lucky to have her in my life.

Anyway, I thought I would post something positive instead of my usual negative rants I tend to go into.

Hi :) you're doing great...really proud of you:)


Significant other
Heterosexual woman

Quote from: jayne01 on June 05, 2016, 08:23:15 PM


...For the first time in my life I got a glimpse of what it might feel like to just be me.

That is exactly what we are all aiming at...just that simple sentence sums it up beautifully....I do not wear any mens clothing at all but if you looked at me in the street you probably would notice "something" in the way I was dressed but by the time I am out of view they are thinking about having pork chops for tea or where the next vcoffe break is due....good on you!!!

Liz

Thank you for all the encouragement. There have been several times where I wanted to revert back and argue with myself and just think WTF?!?! I have resisted going back down that path. There are no lights on that road, it is very dark. When I start feeling doubts, I remind myself that now I am feeling happy, and when I go down the dark road o don't feel happy, so I must be on the right track. I am trusting that with time, these doubts I keep having will come less frequently and it will be easier to just be me day to day. I am also quite stubborn. I am determined to make it past this silly one week goal I have created. Once I do that, then I can start to relax a little. That is my hope anyway.

I am struggling a bit. I'm starting to think this is all going to be too hard and it is just easier to continue being same old male me. I am resisting going down that road. I still believe that my true happiness is accepting I am trans and to let myself be free to be me. It is not easy. I read some posts on here where people ask questions on how to do this or that just to be able to fit in the world. Questions that cis people never need to ask because they don't need to. It's another reminder for me the struggle trans people go through just to exist and be accepted in the world. It can all get quite overwhelming at times.

I find lately that I am starting to see the world differently. While driving earlier today, I was noticing some other 4wd vehicles and SUV's that I liked. But rather than admiring the car and getting ideas of what I may be able to change on my 4wd, I started thinking that I will just be happy to find a way to be happy living being me and have my wife by my side. All my toys and gadgets do not seem to be as important anymore. Being me seems to be more important and give me more fulfilment.

It is very difficult to let go of what I have known my whole life and to let myself be free to just be me.

I did go out in public again today to bring some lunch home for my wife and I and I wore my new girl clothes. It's another example of what I was trying to describe above. Most people don't give a second thought to what they are wearing doing day to day activities. Even though I had a small amount of anxiety, I was ok walking in public, but what I was wearing and what other people may think was pretty much on my mind the whole time. I had to keep reminding myself to just act natural like I have my whole life and I won't draw any attention to myself, and that people don't really care what other people are doing.

I write on this forum as a kind of diary. I find it helps me to write this stuff down, and maybe others may benefit from reading this thread. I don't expect replies to all of my posts, although your comments are always welcome.

Jayne

I like to think that we are fortunate to have been born explorers. Our daily life is asking those questions that people don't ask, or having to think about things that others take for granted.  :)

Take each day on its own merits, and you can do this.

Sno

What I wear seems to be similar to what you wear and I used to worry a lot too.  However, in over a year either nobody has noticed or they don't care.  Nobody has ever said anything amiss and everyone is friendly, maybe more friendly than before.  So if it makes you feel better, don't let unfounded fears throw you back into the dark place.


Sapere Aude

I think we all go through those emotions along the way. Even when I was already started my transition, I was still having thoughts about all the stuff I couldn't do by doing the transition, like swimming, school events for the kids, etc. I guess I started my transition while still being ashamed and feeling like choosing this route meant I'd have to give all those things up. Hint, I didn't.

The road is difficult, but when you have a taste of happiness that you've never known, the difficulty no longer stands a chance. You instead start weighing happiness vs unhappiness and next thing you know, you're living as yourself. But it does take a few iterations of the 20 seconds of courage thing to get past some of the fear.

Jane, My wife does not care what I wear at all...but do I still on occasion mentally beat myself up...of course...but I have a long way to go and there is no first prize...take your time and try and enjoy it... :)

You really are doing OK :)

Liz

Thank you all for the encouragement. I should clarify, I wasn't really worried about what I was wearing. I was certainly conscious of my clothes, mainly because I knew that they were women's clothes, but I didn't let it bother me. What I was trying to say in my last post was that I was noticing some of the things that most people take for granted but for trans people (especially those early in their discovery) these little things can be quite significant. Not necessarily a bad thing, just different.

Emileeeee, I agree with what you say about having a taste of happiness. Never in my life have I been happy with my clothes, or unhappy for that matter. They were just clothes that served a purpose. Now I really like my clothes, and it's only jeans and a top, but I like them a lot. Little things!!!

I am even starting to think myself fortunate in being able to experience the world as a man and there may be a time in the future where I might be a woman. The future is a great unknown, but that is what makes it interesting.

Quote from: jayne01 on June 07, 2016, 11:37:30 PM
I am struggling a bit. I'm starting to think this is all going to be too hard and it is just easier to continue being same old male me. I am resisting going down that road. I still believe that my true happiness is accepting I am trans and to let myself be free to be me. It is not easy. I read some posts on here where people ask questions on how to do this or that just to be able to fit in the world. Questions that cis people never need to ask because they don't need to. It's another reminder for me the struggle trans people go through just to exist and be accepted in the world. It can all get quite overwhelming at times.

I find lately that I am starting to see the world differently. While driving earlier today, I was noticing some other 4wd vehicles and SUV's that I liked. But rather than admiring the car and getting ideas of what I may be able to change on my 4wd, I started thinking that I will just be happy to find a way to be happy living being me and have my wife by my side. All my toys and gadgets do not seem to be as important anymore. Being me seems to be more important and give me more fulfilment.

It is very difficult to let go of what I have known my whole life and to let myself be free to just be me.

I did go out in public again today to bring some lunch home for my wife and I and I wore my new girl clothes. It's another example of what I was trying to describe above. Most people don't give a second thought to what they are wearing doing day to day activities. Even though I had a small amount of anxiety, I was ok walking in public, but what I was wearing and what other people may think was pretty much on my mind the whole time. I had to keep reminding myself to just act natural like I have my whole life and I won't draw any attention to myself, and that people don't really care what other people are doing.

I write on this forum as a kind of diary. I find it helps me to write this stuff down, and maybe others may benefit from reading this thread. I don't expect replies to all of my posts, although your comments are always welcome.

Jayne

I feel like that in regards to my wife and interests too. I think being accepted by those we love most is what's important to us and we, afraid of not being accepted and losing love and part of ourselves. It sounds like your wife is atypical in a good way. Mine was when I married her but after 21 years and my wanting to go further she's drawn a line in the sand. You've just started and seem further ahead. Good for you. Just let what makes you happy guide you no matter the risk . I wish I had the courage to.


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I'm feeling very restless. I must check my emails and on this forum for new posts 1000 times a day. I really don't know what to do with myself. I have this new acceptance of myself (which I am happy to say has not left me yet) and I don't know what I should do. It's like I have just been dropped right in the middle of a big unknown city and don't know which direction I should start walking, so I'm just spinning around in circles in one spot. Is this normal behaviour when you first learn to really accept yourself for who you are?

Quote from: jayne01 on June 09, 2016, 02:59:01 AM
I'm feeling very restless. I must check my emails and on this forum for new posts 1000 times a day. I really don't know what to do with myself. I have this new acceptance of myself (which I am happy to say has not left me yet) and I don't know what I should do. It's like I have just been dropped right in the middle of a big unknown city and don't know which direction I should start walking, so I'm just spinning around in circles in one spot. Is this normal behaviour when you first learn to really accept yourself for who you are?

I think so. You probably will want to express yourself more, meaning going out in the world. Just explore.

Quote from: Gertrude on June 09, 2016, 08:39:18 AM
I think so. You probably will want to express yourself more, meaning going out in the world. Just explore.

You are probably right. Early tonight I told my wife I would like a pair of more feminine shoes to wear so that I can have a complete outfit rather than bits and pieces. I have the urge to go all in and try everything all at once. I guess all of a sudden I want to make up for lost time. I am resisting that urge. I want to take things at a reasonable pace to make sure it all feels right. I don't want to rush too quickly and end up scaring myself and end up like I was before, beating myself up over and over again. Going slow also gives my wife a chance to keep up. Even though I think at times she is way ahead and waiting for me to catch up. I asked her if she was ok with me wearing women's shoes. She said that if it makes me happy, then she is all in. WOW!!!! That made me so happy to hear her say that. I am so incredibly lucky to have such a loving and supportive wife. The only negative comment she had about me wearing women's shoes, was a warning that most women's shoes can be uncomfortable.  :)

I went out in public again today, this time to the local supermarket. It would be nice if I could work out what I need to do so that I actually look like a woman instead of just a guy wearing somewhat feminine clothes. When I see other women around my age dressed nicely, I want to be like them.

Today is one week since I started accepting myself. I MADE IT!!!!!! I was determined to make it through the week without stopping believing in me. There were a few moments where I struggled through, but my stubbornness paid off. I am still feeling quite good about myself. The dysphoria is still there and it is making certain I know it is still there. However, I am coping with it much better, knowing that I might actually be on the right path. It is what everyone here has been telling me all along, I should have just listen to you all. It's my pig headed nature. Unless I work it out for myself the information just doesn't sink in.

Congratulations, Jayne!  That's a huge step forward.  I know it's hard, because I was there three months ago.

There can be a tremendous urge to rush in at this point, but try to take it easy for youself and your loved ones. I currently do the 'guy from the woman's department' thing, presenting male but wearing only from my side of the store when I'm not Michelle. Yesterday, for example I wore an Old Navy large women's crewneck tee, the Elance briefs, Gloria Vanderbilt 'Amanda' jeans size 8, and generic canvas low top sneakers in my size 10.  My narrow waist was the only 'tell'.

Give yourself a little time to settle in, and have fun with it.  You're doing great!

Hi, Jayne

It's very good to hear you've made it through the week. I wish you peace and serenity.

Quote from: jayne01 on June 09, 2016, 09:11:50 AM
You are probably right. Early tonight I told my wife I would like a pair of more feminine shoes to wear so that I can have a complete outfit rather than bits and pieces. I have the urge to go all in and try everything all at once. I guess all of a sudden I want to make up for lost time. I am resisting that urge. I want to take things at a reasonable pace to make sure it all feels right. I don't want to rush too quickly and end up scaring myself and end up like I was before, beating myself up over and over again. Going slow also gives my wife a chance to keep up. Even though I think at times she is way ahead and waiting for me to catch up. I asked her if she was ok with me wearing women's shoes. She said that if it makes me happy, then she is all in. WOW!!!! That made me so happy to hear her say that. I am so incredibly lucky to have such a loving and supportive wife. The only negative comment she had about me wearing women's shoes, was a warning that most women's shoes can be uncomfortable.  :)

I went out in public again today, this time to the local supermarket. It would be nice if I could work out what I need to do so that I actually look like a woman instead of just a guy wearing somewhat feminine clothes. When I see other women around my age dressed nicely, I want to be like them.

Today is one week since I started accepting myself. I MADE IT!!!!!! I was determined to make it through the week without stopping believing in me. There were a few moments where I struggled through, but my stubbornness paid off. I am still feeling quite good about myself. The dysphoria is still there and it is making certain I know it is still there. However, I am coping with it much better, knowing that I might actually be on the right path. It is what everyone here has been telling me all along, I should have just listen to you all. It's my pig headed nature. Unless I work it out for myself the information just doesn't sink in.

Going slow is probably a good idea. It's been described as a runaway train. If you can, get a book by jennifer finney boylan called she's not there. It's a great book and she shows us what a heroes journey is. She has a website too.


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Quote from: Gertrude on June 09, 2016, 01:21:58 PM
Going slow is probably a good idea. It's been described as a runaway train. If you can, get a book by jennifer finney boylan called she's not there. It's a great book and she shows us what a heroes journey is. She has a website too.


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I have actually read that book. It is a great book. I enjoyed reading it.

Quote from: jayne01 on June 09, 2016, 06:06:22 PM
I have actually read that book. It is a great book. I enjoyed reading it.

Another book I've been thinking of getting is Living My Truth by Grace Anne Stevens. I've been thinking about a couple books by Helen Boyd, but I've been warned not to let my wife read them.

Congratulations, Jayne! Great job confronting your dysphoria and measuring your actions.

My dysphoria has also been beating me up, lately. Sometimes I feel I could simultaneously transition, accomplish my career goals and meet my responsibilities, but I know that I'm already overwhelmed. For years, I've felt almost everyday was a failure, because not enough was accomplished, so I can't expect myself to do more, when I already need to expect myself to do less, in order to manage my stress.

I wish I could ignore my dysphoria for at least one year, but attempting this would just be relinquishing my control of the situation and would have pernicious effects. Therefore, even though it can be arduous, you and I should never attempt to forget who we are, as we continue to balance our present and future happiness.

Quote from: autumn08 on June 09, 2016, 10:45:50 PM
Congratulations, Jayne! Great job confronting your dysphoria and measuring your actions.

My dysphoria has also been beating me up, lately. Sometimes I feel I could simultaneously transition, accomplish my career goals and meet my responsibilities, but I know that I'm already overwhelmed. For years, I've felt almost everyday was a failure, because not enough was accomplished, so I can't expect myself to do more, when I already need to expect myself to do less, in order to manage my stress.

I wish I could ignore my dysphoria for at least one year, but attempting this would just be relinquishing my control of the situation and would have pernicious effects. Therefore, even though it can be arduous, you and I should never attempt to forget who we are, as we continue to balance our present and future happiness.

Thank you. I am feeling so good right now. I just got to my therapist for an appointment and everything I am wearing (except for my socks :) ) is women's clothing. My wife just helped me pick out some nice shoes and a small handbag only about an hour ago. My wife went back to the hotel room while I came to my appointment. I walked through the middle of Sydney in rush hour and got on a train to get here. I was a little nervous but mostly I felt good. I didn't care if people stared at me or not, I just carried on as if I was in guy mode.

I'm sorry your dysphoria is troubling you. It doesn't matter how much or how little you accomplish, every small accomplishment is a step forward.

You are still managing to make me reach for a dictionary with your posts. I always learn something new from you. :)

Take care

Jayne

Quote from: jayne01 on June 10, 2016, 01:42:25 AM
I am feeling so good right now. I just got to my therapist for an appointment and everything I am wearing (except for my socks :) ) is women's clothing. My wife just helped me pick out some nice shoes and a small handbag only about an hour ago. My wife went back to the hotel room while I came to my appointment. I walked through the middle of Sydney in rush hour and got on a train to get here. I was a little nervous but mostly I felt good. I didn't care if people stared at me or not, I just carried on as if I was in guy mode.

Wow Jayne, you've made such rapid progress that it's hard to believe your recent posts are written the same person as those written just a few short weeks ago. The tone of your posts are now sounding so positive. Yay! (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.superherohype.com%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Fexcited_zpsc8ms9upf.gif&hash=ff334b5ef3058c1afd7a5d0ec128dd60892c1979)

Quote from: Violets on June 11, 2016, 09:30:15 AM
Wow Jayne, you've made such rapid progress that it's hard to believe your recent posts are written the same person as those written just a few short weeks ago. The tone of your posts are now sounding so positive. Yay! (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.superherohype.com%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Fexcited_zpsc8ms9upf.gif&hash=ff334b5ef3058c1afd7a5d0ec128dd60892c1979)

Thanks you. I feel so good. I actually do feel like a different person. I'm still me, but without all the anger I had bottled up for so long. I think the anger might have kept me functioning all these years, but it also created this very dark cloud in my head that made it very difficult to see any good in the world.

Finally learning how to accept myself has been such a relief for my mind. I cannot describe how good it actually feels.

I am so happy to know who I am.

Quote from: jayne01 on June 11, 2016, 05:39:56 PM
Thanks you. I feel so good. I actually do feel like a different person. I'm still me, but without all the anger I had bottled up for so long. I think the anger might have kept me functioning all these years, but it also created this very dark cloud in my head that made it very difficult to see any good in the world.

Finally learning how to accept myself has been such a relief for my mind. I cannot describe how good it actually feels.

I am so happy to know who I am.

Hi Jayne,

I've been following this thread for quite a while.  It's been an amazing chronicle, seeing you unfold your wings. I can relate to how you feel.  My marriage was never a good one, and my wife and I fought for years.  She once told me I was incapable of happiness.  I protested it was not the case. As proof, I recounted that  I've had good times with my friends, and even with her.  But those were exceptions to the rule. For reasons she didn't realize, I think she was right.  I was never really happy.  I did not like myself, to put it mildly.

Once I finally figured out I was transgender, things made much more sense.  When I decided to transition, I gave myself permission to fail. If it got too much, if the price was too high, I would stop, knowing I gave it my best shot.  That was two and-a-half years ago.

Even though transition is hard, I cannot imagine turning back now. I am so much happier with myself.  I have hope for a fulfilling and joyful life, something I never had before.  I could have been a better father, and a better partner if I had the wisdom and courage to know myself.  It was knowledge gained at a price, but it has been worth it.

I am so proud of you!

Blessings to you,

Terri

Quote from: Maybebaby56 on June 11, 2016, 06:16:34 PM
Hi Jayne,

I've been following this thread for quite a while.  It's been an amazing chronicle, seeing you unfold your wings. I can relate to how you feel.  My marriage was never a good one, and my wife and I fought for years.  She once told me I was incapable of happiness.  I protested it was not the case. As proof, I recounted that  I've had good times with my friends, and even with her.  But those were exceptions to the rule. For reasons she didn't realize, I think she was right.  I was never really happy.  I did not like myself, to put it mildly.

Once I finally figured out I was transgender, things made much more sense.  When I decided to transition, I gave myself permission to fail. If it got too much, if the price was too high, I would stop, knowing I gave it my best shot.  That was two and-a-half years ago.

Even though transition is hard, I cannot imagine turning back now. I am so much happier with myself.  I have hope for a fulfilling and joyful life, something I never had before.  I could have been a better father, and a better partner if I had the wisdom and courage to know myself.  It was knowledge gained at a price, but it has been worth it.

I am so proud of you!

Blessings to you,

Terri

Hi Terri,

Thank you. I'm sorry your marriage didn't work out. I am very glad that you are happy now being yourself. I get what you mean by not liking yourself. I think I very much disliked myself without even knowing it. In hindsight, I can see how much anger I had inside. I never expressed that anger in any form of violence. I just bottled it all up.

I understand now what it means when people would tell me that you don't have to like it in order to accept being trans. I was having trouble making the distinction. I get it now. If I was given a choice, I would never choose to be trans. And not for any reasons like society not being overly accepting. The reason I would never choose trans is I would not want the internal mental trauma of my brain and body not completely matching. However, nobody gets to make that choice. We are who we are. If we accept it, then we can find a way to live a happy life. If we don't accept it, then there is a constant battle in our minds which only leads to unhappiness.

I realise now that I have entered onto a path that is not the easiest to navigate, but I think it is the only path for me that can give me genuine happiness. I am very fortunate that my wife loves "me" the person. We are closer now than we have ever been. She makes it so much easier for me to be able to be me. And she is happier knowing that I am happier.



Jayne

Quote from: jayne01 on June 11, 2016, 06:41:46 PM
We are who we are. If we accept it, then we can find a way to live a happy life. If we don't accept it, then there is a constant battle in our minds which only leads to unhappiness.

Bravo!!!  :eusa_clap:

We don't choose what we like and it might seem irrational, but after we placate our physiological needs, in order to make the best of our weird, but sole existence, we must find love for who we are.

Well it's coming up to 2 weeks since accepting myself. Still feeling good.

There has been some strange feelings the last few days. Kind of a panicky feeling mixed with excitement and fear. There have also been a few WTF moments (mainly while I'm at work) where I start to wonder what am I thinking? It hasn't derailed me. I just remind myself how happy I have been since accepting myself and any fears I may be having become less intimidating.

One thing seems certain - I have got myself onto a wild roller coaster ride!!! :)

I have come to realise that indeed there is no solution to this. I cannot continue to live with the guilt of hurting other people because I have some damn birth defect in my brain. It just isn't right. This is my curse and nobody else's. I will have to find some way to bury it, or I will die trying. Being transgender truly sucks!!!!!!!!

Thank you all for your support.

Goodbye!

Quote from: jayne01 on June 16, 2016, 03:42:43 AM
I have come to realise that indeed there is no solution to this. I cannot continue to live with the guilt of hurting other people because I have some damn birth defect in my brain. It just isn't right. This is my curse and nobody else's. I will have to find some way to bury it, or I will die trying....

You, are you.

You are extremely considerate of all around, at huge cost to yourself. I'm not sure how much they understand quite how much of yourself, you are prepared to give up, because you love them so.

If they did, I'm sure they would be urging you onward, not asking you to bury it.

Sno

Quote from: Sno on June 16, 2016, 06:37:05 AM
You, are you.

You are extremely considerate of all around, at huge cost to yourself. I'm not sure how much they understand quite how much of yourself, you are prepared to give up, because you love them so.

If they did, I'm sure they would be urging you onward, not asking you to bury it.

Sno

Just to be clear, my wife has not asked me to bury anything. She has been more supportive than I deserve. But I can see she is hurting. I have shattered her reality.

The only one telling me to bury anything is me because I cannot bear to be the cause of any hurt she may be suffering.

All choices require sacrifice. The question is which choices will create the highest ratio of pleasure vs. pain. The affects of self abnegation, when its unnecessary, certainly won't.

Our self-worth is contingent upon how close we feel to our expectations of ourselves. In other words, if we feel worthy, we believe we are someone worthy of love. Therefore, the fact that you feel you're doing something wrong, is causing an outbreak of internalized-transphobia, and an attempt to hide from your gender dysphoria.

If you were a cisgender male or female, you wouldn't have the same experiences. Appreciate your life, to the point that you never trade your life for a different one, and it will cure your internalized-transphobia. Hone your focus on the choices that can improve your life, instead of pondering the unattainable, and it will make your gender dysphoria manageable. 

Quote from: autumn08 on June 16, 2016, 07:47:14 AM
All choices require sacrifice. The question is which choices will create the highest ratio of pleasure vs. pain. The affects of self abnegation, when its unnecessary, certainly won't.

Our self-worth is contingent upon how close we feel to our expectations of ourselves. In other words, if we feel worthy, we believe we are someone worthy of love. Therefore, the fact that you feel you're doing something wrong, is causing an outbreak of internalized-transphobia, and an attempt to hide from your gender dysphoria.

If you were a cisgender male or female, you wouldn't have the same experiences. Appreciate your life, to the point that you never trade your life for a different one, and it will cure your internalized-transphobia. Hone your focus on the choices that can improve your life, instead of pondering the unattainable, and it will make your gender dysphoria manageable.

I don't care about me. I care about my wife. She did not marry a woman. She is not a lesbian. How can I expect her to compromise her identity just so I can be happy. If my happiness requires her to be compromised in any way, then it is no longer happiness and becomes pure selfish greed.

I know I'm trans, and it sucks! But I will not be selfish and ignore my wife's needs to satisfy something that until only in the past year I didn't even know existed. It is not right.

Quote from: jayne01 on June 16, 2016, 08:00:06 AM
I don't care about me. I care about my wife. She did not marry a woman. She is not a lesbian. How can I expect her to compromise her identity just so I can be happy. If my happiness requires her to be compromised in any way, then it is no longer happiness and becomes pure selfish greed.

I know I'm trans, and it sucks! But I will not be selfish and ignore my wife's needs to satisfy something that until only in the past year I didn't even know existed. It is not right.

You're missing the point. Everyone's choices, including your wife's, are a compromise. Whether you try to bury your pain, or manage it, she is going to need to make a compromise. If you want to help her receive the best possible compromise, you should manage your gender dysphoria. 

To reduce pain, you can either attain more pleasure, or lower your expectations. If you want to bury your gender (eliminate your pain, without giving yourself any pleasure), you would need to lower your expectations to zero, but doing so is impossible, because its always possible to give yourself at least a little pleasure. Therefore, even though it can be arduous, to manage your gender dysphoria, you need to constantly weigh your options, in order to have a balanced approach.

I will manage it by burying it, then nobody has to worry about it.

Quote from: jayne01 on June 16, 2016, 09:20:52 AM
I will manage it by burying it, then nobody has to worry about it.

At the moment, your tunnel vision is impenetrable, but I have confidence that you're capable of unraveling this. 

Quote from: jayne01 on June 16, 2016, 09:20:52 AM
I will manage it by burying it, then nobody has to worry about it.

There probably isn't a person on this site who hasn't said that to themselves at one time or another.

The dysphoria will never go away, Jayne.  I learned that after 50 years of struggling with it.  I buried my dysphoria for months, even years at a time, but it always came back.

Still, your decision is your decision, and a very personal one.  You alone can decide when the right time will  be to deal with it.

Blessings to you,

Terri

Quote from: jayne01 on June 16, 2016, 09:20:52 AM
I will manage it by burying it, then nobody has to worry about it.

I know I go through the ups and downs similar to what you are demonstrating.  This is a big change on your life and on her life.

Think of it like this.  (No bad intent)
If you were to suffer with a sudden life changing event (disease, illness, loss of limb, paralysis, blindness, etc)...  I'm certain your wife would not have not signed up for that.  She signed up for a healthy man.   Would it be selfish for you to expect your wife to accept it?  In any case, life as you know it would change...some ways more difficult, some ways just different, and many times it ends up better in some weird way.

I know being trans is not the same thing as some of the events I described, but the principle is the same.  Ultimately, we all have choices in life.  You and your wife have to make the choice.  Like I said, it will be different - difficult - and better in some ways, but you have to go through the process to figure it out.



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Quote from: Maybebaby56 on June 16, 2016, 10:46:06 AM
There probably isn't a person on this site who hasn't said that to themselves at one time or another.

The dysphoria will never go away, Jayne.  I learned that after 50 years of struggling with it.  I buried my dysphoria for months, even years at a time, but it always came back.

Still, your decision is your decision, and a very personal one.  You alone can decide when the right time will  be to deal with it.

Blessings to you,

Terri

I'm not expecting it to go away. I'm sure it will torture me for the rest of my life. It would just be selfish of me if I expected my wife to not be true to herself because of me. I would never ask that of her.

Quote from: jayne01 on June 16, 2016, 10:50:27 AM
I'm not expecting it to go away. I'm sure it will torture me for the rest of my life. It would just be selfish of me if I expected my wife to not be true to herself because of me. I would never ask that of her.

Have you expressed this to her.? if you did, you may be surprised at her reaction. To not be expressing yourself completely will challenge your relationship, and you will not be in a good space either.

In essence, you are trying to give everything up, because you love her so. :(

[big hug]

Sno

I cannot do that. She would want me to do what makes me happy, even at her own expense. I cannot let her do that for me. This is my curse, not hers or anybody else's.

Quote from: jayne01 on June 16, 2016, 02:47:50 PM
I cannot do that. She would want me to do what makes me happy, even at her own expense. I cannot let her do that for me. This is my curse, not hers or anybody else's.

Attempting to bury your gender dysphoria would also be at your wife's expense. Pain is a signal that something needs improvement. By burying your gender, you would just be ignoring inputs that would allow you to improve the status of your marriage.

As I explained earlier, you can't reduce your expectations to zero and stop receiving painful inputs. Therefore, if you want to be able to do what is best for your marriage, don't attempt to withhold valuable information from yourself.

In other words, stop looking for absolute solutions, when no such thing exists.

Everyone, including your wife, is acting in their best self-interest. Based on what you've told us, your wife isn't asking you to do something, but secretly wanting you to do the opposite, in order to prove your love for her, or is ill-formed of the situation. Therefore, you should have greater respect for your wife's assessment of the situation, and know that she believes managing your gender dysphoria would bring her more pleasure vs. pain, than you attempting to bury your gender dysphoria.

By attempting to self-abnegate, without accepting your wife's input, you're not acting nobly, but self-flagellating and capitulating to fear.

Quote from: jayne01 on June 16, 2016, 08:00:06 AM
I don't care about me. I care about my wife. She did not marry a woman. She is not a lesbian. How can I expect her to compromise her identity just so I can be happy. If my happiness requires her to be compromised in any way, then it is no longer happiness and becomes pure selfish greed.

I know I'm trans, and it sucks! But I will not be selfish and ignore my wife's needs to satisfy something that until only in the past year I didn't even know existed. It is not right.

Why let the world define you or her? She can be with you and to hell with labels. At some point, she has to value her opinion of herself without the lens of society. If she doesn't, then there's not much to be done. It seems like it's a journey for everyone involved.

Jayne,

You can't assign your fears and doubt to your wife, who you've said supports you and would want what's best for you. By claiming that "burying it" would assist her, you're actually denying her her say in all of this. If you truly want her to be happy then work with her on this.

Don't hide your own fears by claiming to be burying it for her. She can probably make her own decisions, can't she?

Please stop!!!

I tried deleting my account and it was denied. I cannot take this anymore! I'm not a strong person. This is killing me. I wish it would actually kill me.

I might have transphobia, I might be afraid, I am probably trans and I definitely am incapable of handling it. I look like a guy wearing women's clothes, I have zero chance of ever passing, I am not a good person. I have no sense of self. I do not relate to anybody because I don't even know who I am.

You are all very nice people, but I don't belong here. So please stop wasting your time with me, I am. It worth it.

Goodbye!

Have you considered that being just gender non-conforming and not fully trans might work better for you? Transitioning to being a woman isn't the only course of action...

Jayne,

First, do believe me when say I understand your pain.

If you don't mind, I'd really appreciate it if you could articulate something.

You recently realized and admitted something to yourself. From what you write it doesn't sound that you now think you were wrong.

Whatever course you decide to take is what you want to do now, at this moment. You've stated that you're making the choice for your wife's sake, and I do respect that. Speaking for myself only, I wouldn't even think of trying to change your mind. All I want to hear is that your plan is not a panic reaction but something you've thought through rationally.

Now for the question—what is it that you want to bury, and how you plan to do it?

Using a different approach—and please don't take this as flippant, as I don't at all intend it to be—were you an airplane, what would be the most similar issue, how would you go about doing what you want to do, and what precautions would you take to ensure the safety of the owner and passengers?

You belong here as much as every other nice person, as you too are a nice person - we've seen that time and again from your thoughtfulness and compassion to those who matter in your day to day reality.

I generally love the company of nice people, even when they are exceptionally hard on themselves.

I'm picky like that.

I also pick how I spend my time, and if I'm helpful, constructive, supportive, simply a good listener or just empathetic, then so be it, none of that time was wasted.

[hugs]

Sno.

I think this outbreak originated from your dissatisfaction with your appearance and a belief that to alleviate your dissatisfaction, you would need to ask too much of your wife.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, my gender dysphoria also makes me want to fully and immediately transition, but I can't now, because the ramifications would be too great. Therefore, to manage my gender dysphoria, I've been removing facial and body hair, losing muscle mass and growing my hair. I still won't dare to cross-dress, because it accentuates how I still very much look like a man, but if I appreciate my progress and continue to make compromises, then I can find peace and happiness, even though I'm so far from my ideal situation.

It can be arduous to manage gender dysphoria, but shrouding it with tenuous moral reasoning, won't be beneficial for your marriage. Therefore, in tandem with your wife, move through your fear, with dignity.

What tears us apart is the conflict between gender dysphoria and our circumstances. For many, including myself, now isn't an opportune time to learn how to live as the opposite sex and accept all of the available treatments, but when a transgender individual moves to the opposite extreme of the spectrum and doesn't accept any treatments available to them, a miserable existence, that metastasizes to those that care about them, awaits.

Sometimes, but with ever diminishing frequency, I still wonder, "WTF am I doing??? 9 months ago I was 170 lbs, bearded, short haired, very muscular, and immediately respected socially. Now I'm 150 lbs, my beard is almost gone, I have long hair, and behind my back, I hear whispers such as, "ogromna dziewcyna" (Polish for "gigantic girl"). Why do I want this???" As I continually drill into your mind, we don't choose what we like, and even though it requires us to make some sacrifices, if we listen to our pain, and refuse to capitulate to irrational fears, we can create a better compromise.

I empathize with you, because I also know what its like to ignore your emotions and live practically. I know all of this can seem ridiculous, but my life, as your life can, has improved in all aspects, in comparison to the melancholic existence I once gritted my teeth through. There really isn't a good argument for unnecessary repression. 

My wife, as well as myself, feel that we cannot stand between the other and their happiness. Doing so will only result in a lot of unhappiness, plenty of animosity, and even resentment & anger. Which she and I can readily attest to after my 30-40 years of relentlessly burying the walking, talking, breathing un-dead Joanne.

We are both some 7 years into my..... non-transition transition. I've changed a lot. I've grown as a person. I am continuing to grow and learn what it is to be me. Seven years still isn't enough to unlearn 50 years of hurt. My wife has seen many wonderful positive changes in me and in our relationship. We both have no idea what the future will bring

Jayne,

I've thought about you quite a bit. I just reread what I wrote yesterday, and realize I did not phrase my thoughts very well. If my words caused you more pain I apologize.

To me the "probably" in your earlier posts seemed very important. Does your decision to bury mean you now feel certain?

What I really wanted to say is that burying something and working around it are completely different things. What I really wanted to say is that burying something and working around it are completely different things. When I hurt my knee I suspected that the cartilage was torn, and a doctor confirmed it was. The choice I made was to not have an operation but to live with it, but that did not mean I could just ignore the fact. I learnt to move more gently and select positions that put the least stress on the joint.

Evidently there are biological reasons that those who are transgender feel the way they do. Self-acceptance does not mean one has to physically and socially transition. What it does mean is that one no longer just blindly strives to feel differently than one does.

The reason I brought up the airplane simile is that some things affect function. While discovering a non-standard engine may perhaps be immaterial to the passengers and doesn't require disclosure to them, you probably would not hide it from the pilot.

Quote from: zirconia on June 18, 2016, 09:23:22 PM
Jayne,

I've thought about you quite a bit. I just reread what I wrote yesterday, and realize I did not phrase my thoughts very well. If my words caused you more pain I apologize.

To me the "probably" in your earlier posts seemed very important. Does your decision to bury mean you now feel certain?

What I really wanted to say is that burying something and working around it are completely different things. When I hurt my knee I suspected that the cartilage was torn, and a doctor confirmed it was. The choice I made was to not have an operation but to live with it, but that did not mean I could just ignore the fact. I learnt to move more gently and select positions that put the least stress on the joint.

Evidently there are biological reasons that those who are transgender feel the way they do. Self-acceptance does not mean one has to physically and socially transition. What it does mean is that one no longer just blindly strives to feel differently than one does.

The reason I brought up the airplane simile is that some things affect function. While discovering a non-standard engine may perhaps be immaterial to the passengers and doesn't require disclosure to them, you probably would not hide it from the pilot.

Sometimes I think that the true self inside us is SWMBO, especially when we admit who we are to ourselves.  ;)